If you’ve finished the video, there are a couple of things I want to clarify All Fiction is stronger than Imagine breaker in every way. While yes the imagine breaker can negate supernatural phenomena, that’s about it in terms of it’s uses. All fiction can negate and erase anything in the universe whether it be natural, supernatural or conceptual. Imagine Breaker only overcame All Fiction because it acts as a direct counter, the power to negate would naturally nullify All fiction just like it did for other universal scaling abilities like Cronzons magic flamming sword spell, phases and gungnir. All Fiction is not 100% full proof in it’s ability to erase. For example, All Fiction apparently can’t erase other minuses, only remove certain aspects of them and Within Medaka box there exist a power in which objects or people damaged by it can not be healed no matter what ability you possess, even All Fiction could not undo it. All Fiction has also been stated to be incapable of bringing back things that have already been erased, but that’s not entirely true as Non-Fiction and April Fiction can return things that have been long turned into fiction. Meaning they still exist somewhere in some way shape or form. Imagine Breaker isn’t anywhere as strong as All Fiction but it does act as a natural counter to its effects. 2. You may be wondering why I didn’t bring up Touma’s right hand entities in this battle, well that’s because they would be useless 99% of the time. The dragons, Dragon Shell, Invisible thing, The fish eggs. All of them would be no threat to Kumagawa. In fact, Kumagawa would just make them into fiction, rendering them even more useless then before. None of their abilities and non of their world ending destructive power would be any threat as Kumagwa would simply revive from anything they could possibly throw at him. The only useful ability would be Touma’s ability to regenerate his arm if Kumagawa ever happened to sever it. We also don’t know enough about IT 3. Kumagawa’s negative aura wouldn’t work on Touma. This is the same guy who endured 100 billion different hells, each with their own intensity and constantly faces down far more powerful foes without hesitation. So I doubt Kumagawa would scare Touma even slightly. Well anyways, I’m pretty confident in my verdict but knowing the internet, my comments may be flooded with 10 game changing facts I somehow missed about Imagine Breaker or ALL fiction. Well that’s what the comments are for after all.
@OneDragon-ps2pm @OneDragon-ps2pm Maybe he can, maybe he can’t. Like you said, All Fiction has never interacted with Soul Manipulation. So there’s also no evidence that the Fish Eggs destroying souls surpass the highest levels of causality manipulation. We don’t know the full limits of All Fiction so it very well could undo soul destruction
@@BUR404Coronzon soul is equal to angel in Toaru that exist outside of human history which include causality and yet Fish Egg still was able to destroy her. I agree AF have no well defined limit but we cannot just assume Kumagawa can erase everything.
@craytherlaygaming2852 When Kumagawa was fighting Medaka, he didn’t have All Fiction anymore. He willingly gave it up to get access to Book Maker. He wanted to make Medaka like him in every way. Just some dumb ideological thing In regards to the girl narrating Najimi Ajimu has like 2 quadrillion different powers. We don’t know every single one of them but there could have been some that heavily exploited All Fictions defensive powers (She’s basically gave him All Fiction anyway). Defeating Kumagawa would have been a cake walk for her
It's ironic that Kumagawa's mindset is the one thing preventing him from using all fiction to its fullest but at the same time it was that mindset that allowed all fiction to manifest
Two black haired high schoolers, seen as losers and weaklings by the system, and was labeled as "Zero". Held an ability that centers around manipulating and disrupting the very nature of reality. Both has a very unnatural ideology, and alwhile they held great power in their hands, they are cursed with failures and misfortunes. Forget fighting, someone write a fanfiction where they met and gives everyone a headache by just being themselves.
Most reasonable approach lol Touma match ups always end up with me wanting them to bond or just meme around rather than actually fighting, like id rather have Touma and Shirou suffer together in kitchen than in a fight for example😂
Wait... correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't imagine breaker coming into contact with Kumagawa's body result in a massive disruption to all fiction? Leaving a massive window for victory?
Imagine Breaker wouldn’t really disrupt the use of All Fiction that much. Unless Touma grabs onto Kumagawa forever, All Fiction will heal Kumagawa instantly. Kumagawa isn’t like Accelerator, where he knew nothing about getting around a fist fight and I don’t think imagine breaker can permanently or temporarily turn off passive abilities unless they are made out of certain energies
@@BUR404 imagine breaker specifically disrupts both AIM field energy and mana within a proximity of his hand so he could temporarily disable magic itself but I don't think his hand would do anything to kumagawa simply because he doesn't require either mana or AIM energy to use his power
@@Chinese_Name yes but that's with no guaranteed safety given even with the previous restrictions he still can only nullify as much as he can physically withstand so if he were to try to counter something way to strong he'd likely tear his arm apart in the process like he did when misaka was going bezerk due to losing control of her own power. Kumagawa would most definitely provide a much bigger difficulty to contain the power since touma would still have to get in proximity and can't just infinitely cancel everything forever without drawbacks on himself, war of attrition where one has a limited resource and the other can just casually keep backpedaling throwing more at him until he wears down. Not really a fair fight
So Kumagawa won not necessarily because he has better abilities nor could he prevent his abilities from getting nulled by imagine breaker, but because he's very persistent and is naturally physically stronger than Touma while also being a lot more skilled in physical brawls than him.
The only way I can see Touma edging out a victory is- paradoxically- if Kumagawa figures out imagine breaker is limited to his right hand and attempts to lop it off with a screw or the imaginary sword. In which case... yeah...
@@BUR404 it depends on how you interpret the invisible thing’s apparent ability to nullify other powers, which is ambiguous throughout different mediums. If it can, then Kumagawa presumably gets oneshot and washed. If it can’t, then it’s getting erased by All Fiction.
@@worldrejecter1533Yeah no not seeing Invisible Thing getting erased when even Kamisato ran away after seeing that instead of trying to banish it like he did with Imagine Breaker, and All Fiction has range but World Rejecter able to banish even magic gods is much more impressive feat.
Bro I respect you in this video so much honestly I love how you did your research unlike a certain RUclipsr… you actually told your honest opinion instead of being extremely biased and I respect that so much, thank you for the video and I hope you’ll get to 10k at the end of this year. ❤
I like this alor you hit every nail on the head i just love it! You pointed out every reason each character would counter the other Kumagawa powers may be equal to phases and thus don't effect Touma, but as you said,; in a hand to hand fights Touma loses just like with Acqua. As you said only words and ideology could decide this fight and that's just speculation :)
So my understanding of [All Fiction] is that it's essentially "reality subtraction", able to take aspects of reality and remove them so they become fictional, creating a conceptual "vacuum" where that part of reality was removed that gets filled in by whatever part of reality is closest as a substitute (minus injuries = healthy, no more blue = green takes blue's place etc). Based on the name/ terms I'm guessing the reason it doesn't work against other minus abilities is that minus abilities are "subtractive" in nature, in that their functions don't "add" anything to reality but take things away from it to achieve their effects, so there's nothing for [All Fiction] to remove?
When it didn't work, it was actually at a time when All Fiction was heavily degraded and weakened to the point where it couldn't fully erase some things. (basically he gave away the batteries, Hundred Gauntlets, to its original owner, leaving a fading OS) He gets it back later and even makes All Fiction stronger.
Good theory, but if minuses don't add to reality enough to require a substitute, then that just means All Fiction can erase it without consequence. Physical things that are erased by AF also aren't substituted by anything, so that logic would only apply to concepts that bind reality together.
You forgot another possibility What if Kumagawa saw Touma constantly negating everything with his right arm and decided to rip it of from the shoulder. When Touma loses that arm sh*t gets real.
That would actually make things better for touma since the dragons or invisible thing will come out to help him. They can also heal his arm. Its happened before.
The description of Kumagawa's power feels confusing to me, would that really count as manipulating causality? I think "rejecting reality" is a better and simpler definiton.
@@BUR404 that makes me curious-how would the opposite work? like say we have "all reality" or something similar in which the user can essentially cement anything into reality and how would all fiction vs all reality work?
@@ShameelIrwin-f1d You're not erasing a concept, a part of the body nor a proximity to Touma, you're erasing an action. It MAY be a loophole, or you could erase the distance between Touma and Kumagawa, and he could just hit Touma over and over again, even if the range of the punches isn't quite right because Kumagawa would need to erase a specific chunk of the distance to avoid the range of Imagine Breaker. With how hard that man hits and considering he will NEVER run out of strength to hit Touma as hard as he can, I figure Touma would die in few repetitions if not outright after the first hit and a bad landing.
@@fero_zetta unless touma hits him with his right hand. since AF have to interact with it to attempt to erase the action. also considering touma's extent of fighting and his dying punch can break fingers and knocks out people, it's likely on the 'handwaving maybe'
@@alvinreinaldy5148 It certainly does not, Kumagawa does flashy moves because of theatrics, but it doesn't need proximity to erase actions, and Kumagawa's pain tolerance is extremely high, and his durability is ridiculous for having zero boosts. BookMaker would probably buff Thoma instead of weakening him.
@@fero_zetta And what action did he erase? Touma action. And what Touma action involve? Moving with his imagine breaker causing the erased action to be negated.
Unfortunately, the other abilities of Touma, such as the 8 dragons with their own unique powers that reside within his right hand, were not mentioned. However, I do commend you for discussing the invisibility thing, though.
This is a very interesting battle the more you think about it, it mainly depends on how high you scale each of their abilities and how you think theyd affect each other Like imagine breaker passively attracts supernatural phenomenons like lightning so would any attack actually hit touma? If Kumagawa decides to erase the right arm how high do you scale the lther things Touma has, the dragons apparently respond to the level of danger and 8 of them were able to eat misaka's sphere which imagine breaker couldn't do so all 16 might just devour all of the supernatural changes, IT is extremely weird to rank and fish eggs are seemingly the strongest thing being at least on the level of a magic god in terms of destruction capabilities with a roar alone Theres a bunch of different variables that could occur and the only definitive way i could see either winning is if Kumagawa manages to outlast touma or touma does the same thing he did to the bird and destroy kumagawa from the inside out with IT
@@joshuapatterson8269 When Kumagawa erases something it can't be brought back. They are permanently erased from the world. Imagine Breaker can't bring back Kumagawa's past injuries because they no longer ever happened, I also recall Imagine Breaker can not fully restore things that have been destroyed or erased. There was a point where Kumagawa lost All Fiction for like half the manga's run but none of his injuries or changes he made with the ability returned to normal. Only Non-Fiction can return things that have been erased but only by using causality to manipulate his past actions and undoing them.
@@joshuapatterson8269 Again, All Fiction permanetly deletes things from the world, they can't be brought back even by Kumagawa. Only the precise manipulation of causality with Non-Fiction by undoing his own actions in the past can return them. Using your grass anology, if Touma touched the ground, the grass wouldn't return because at that point grass no longer exist. I think it's similer to why Touma's memories don't come back just because he touches his head.
@@joshuapatterson8269 I think you’re referring to Ars Magna? If you’re then both abilities only have surface level similarities. As far as I can tell (from what I’ve read and heard) Ars Magna has to actively be turned on for the effects to stay working. He erased Touma’s memory but since it was an active spell it could be erased by Imagine Breaker? I believe he killed someone using the power as well but they got revived when Touma touched them. Meaning that she wasn’t truly dead but mimicked a form of death due to the power. All-Fiction doesn’t work the same way as when it erases something it can’t be brought back. For imagine Breaker to bring back things All-Fiction erases implies that All-Fiction has to actively keep things erased. So if Kumagawa turns off the power or it gets nullified then everything thats now erased will come back, including Kumagawa’s own death. The problem is that All-Fiction isn’t actively keeping things erased. It erases something and that’s it. If it was actively keeping things erased then he would have dropped dead and everything he’s erased would return when he lost the power on 2 separate occasions. The only way to undo All-Fiction is to use the power ‘NON-FICTION’ to essentially time travel and prevent Kumagawa from erasing something. Non-Fiction is actually a power Kumagawa possesses and developed just to counter all-fiction as he’s unable to undo his own erasures. Which wouldn’t make sense if he was just actively keeping them erased right?
I mean... Theres one key note here that we can use to settle this argument instantly. "Kumagawa must always lose." He WON'T win. Ever. The whole point of Book Maker is that he will make the fight a guaranteed draw, but he will still lose (by his nature, he will call himself the loser even if he doesn't actually lose. See "The chalk would fade away and become nothing, so it's my loss." versus Ezumachi.) Its like people saying he can beat Goku. No he cannot. Kumagawa will not win, and if he does, he will say he lost. All Touma has to do is nullify Book Maker, in the same way that Medaka does, and Kumagawa will accept a 'fair loss', since someone brought to his level, even for a split second, was able to overcome it and still bring a win. Touma doesn't need to be able to beat Kumagawa, he needs to prove he has more drive to win than Kumagawa, which, while not easy, is not impossible. Book Maker/All Fiction's inability to remove the effects of Imagine Breaker permanently is all that matters here. If the best skill Kumagawa has cannot break Touma's spirit, Kumagawa will call himself the loser and the match is going to end in a defeat. "He couldn't even imagine himself winning" is a literal reason he has lost before, so if we are assuming he has all his abilities at their full potential, he still has to have this mindset.
Kumagawa is way superior, no doubt about that. He would still lose because he is Kumagawa, and Touma is a protagonist. But still, Kumagawa is stronger by miles.
i liked this but the problem is imagine breaker can be overpowered and has been many times and if he just erases his brain or anything that is not the hand Imagine Breaker cant bring back that limb since he would have to touch the area the limb is gone but he cant since he would be gone i really like the way you did this is was good
@@joshuapatterson8269 if he erases all of him but his arm he can't reverse it with imagin breaker since it would have to touch that part of him but it's gone
@@doriankamanzi6874 Yep agree 100% people seem to forget the fact that AF erase thing from existence, what has been erase by this ability can never return. The only exception is April fiction but that different ability that work similar to AF but erase with time limit once it over what has been erase return and Non-Fiction which specifically ability to return what AF erase to come back. But otherwise, nothing can bring what he already erase back since it no longer exist. What if he tried to erase esper power from existence, or erase time so toma never born in this current timeline. like erase his parent before he even born. That why I said kumagawa can deal with Giorno, such feat is actually possible in theory if Kumagawa will it. Stand can protech Girno true, but I don't If he knew the arm are immune then just target other part of his body, the brain, the heart, it all work since it has no laser beam to show it work, he just will it and the effect happen. No physical atk need to be done.
Doesn't all fiction erase concepts as if they never existed? So wouldn't it be seen as a natural thing if something was erased to before Touma even got imagine breaker?
I could see that loophole applying to All Fiction but although Touma has never dealt with outright causality erasure before, I think Imagine Breaker would still protect Touma and resist the effects of All Fiction to some extent. However, I don’t think Touma can bring back anything else Kumagawa erases
Wait... Kumagawa can't win fights because of all fiction. Cuz he believes that he just can't win. That means touma would just seal his own fate by touching Kumagawa with imagine breaker
Touma would't undo Kumagawa's healing since once the healing is done it become the base line for a person and it would only stop regen or a healing process. My proof is that in an episode Index was near death and needed healing so Touma had to leave in order not to disrupt the process after that if touma would negate her healing every time he touched her she would be near death, but that doesnt happen so we have to assume once an ability is done he cannot negate it (unless the effect is some how unnaturall)
There are different types of healing. In the novel volume 2, Touma was afraid to use imagine breaker to touch people who had been revived from death by Ars Magna with as they would return to being a corpse if he did. Normal healing spells like the one used on index simply boosts the body's natural healing capabilities so while the process is supernaturally aided, the final outcome is still natural.
it all come down to a fist fight no matter what, and since people who often relying on their ability dont have much of a physical fitness for a normal fist fight, Touma will always come out on top most of the time. and even if Touma was incapacitated, or get his arm cut off, the imagina breaker will go berserk and tip the fight even more in Touma favor. the only way to win is not to fight.
No? Even in a physical fight kumogawa would win, Kumogawa knows how to fight properly, Touma would just get outclassed, even if he landed a hit Kumogawa would heal himself.
One question: have you read Tsukihime? if so, I think it would be cool to make a video about what a possible fight between Arcueid and Othinus would look like. it's usually a comparison that people who know the two series usually make
I’m currently watching the Tsukihime anime so I don’t know too much Arcueid. I’m working on a Gilgamesh and Mystic Eyes of death perception centric video so I’ll make a vs video after I’m a little more familiar with Nasuverse lore
@@BUR404 Ahh... The Tsukihime anime... I don't recommend watching Tsukihime's anime, it cuts a lot of things from the visual novel and doesn't adapt things right, besides the animation is already quite dated. I recommend reading the original visual novel or reading the remake if you don't like Takeuchi's old art style. if you want to understand a little more about the mystic eyes of death perception I also recommend you to watch (or read the light novel) Kara no Kyoukai.
@@godzillasuper777good to know, wasn’t really vibing with the anime anyway I kinda forgot about the remake but thanks for reminding me. I’ll read it immediately
@@Chinese_Name I think Arcueid would win if she was at her full power. but I don't want to go too deep into how strong Arcueid would be here in case Bot makes a video about her in the future. I'm just saying that she is not a character to be underestimated, Nasu himself stated that she is among the top 3 strongest in Nasuverse.
This should also include imagine breaker zoo, including things like 4 eyes dragon, which basically has aizen's zanpakuto like power, it will hypnotize all 5 senses thus making all fiction useless, since Kumagawa will be using it in his illusion with no change in reality.
I want to see a hypothetical battle between Kumogawa and Gremmy. One has the power to turn reality into fiction while another has the power to turn fiction into reality.
kumogawa can reject reality.Ex. getting rid of the color blue. but gremmy can change reality into fiction. basically letting him do anything he can imagine. Ex. turning someones arms into cookies@@pavlemarjanovic1896
Wouldn’t kumagawa no giving up be in a way related to his power of infinite stamina surely if he was held by Touma victory is basically garenteed as he can’t heal and don’t have infinite stamina he can only last so long and also touma had a lot more than just his imagine breaker and precognition Edit: after reading some comments add that he just permanently holds on to kumagawa so he can never revive himself assuming he even can
At the very least, Kumagawa is on Touma’s level in terms of throwing hands so that “holding onto him” strategy isn’t going to work like it did with Accelerator.
That might be true, but I do believe kumagawa is just physically superior as he was able to keep up with medaka and even land book maker on her without using all fiction because he temporarily sealed it away to have a proper and fair fight with her
i say no since Index was once near death and needed healing so Touma had to leave in order not to disrupt the process after that if touma would negate her healing every time he touched her she would be near death, but that doesnt happen so we have to assume once an ability is done he cannot negate it
The problem with imagine breaker is Touma actually has to you know stop all fiction with his right hand and I mean the speed difference is huge not to mention af is sure fire hit but it would be close
@@bobduhbuilder6784 I think it's more of the fact that people forgets about Touma being blitzed by many of the characters he's paired up against. At best, Touma is massively hypersonic (in short bursts).
she'd probably lose as she is essentially a supernatural entity so if she comes close to imagine breaker, she'll get erased and if she tries to fight kumagawa, he could just erase the show she's from therefore erasing her existence and origin
@@randzanime7656 ok allow me to dispel this notion Imagine breaker:it nullifies anything supernatural There is a force present in re:creators know as the restorative force in a nutshell anything that goes against physics and logic gets nullified and Altair not only spent a year under it she also stopped it from affecting all of the other characters And her swords are very much real All fiction You said it could erase characters but Altair has high godly regeneration so that wouldn’t really do much Book maker This would be trying to mess with her character description….which was stated twice that stuff like that doesn’t work
@@midnight-envy Altair transcend her world and the world of her creator. And finally creat her own. She literrally transcend reality ! And as we had seen in Re:Creator she nullifies her erasure. And want to say she had a power far stronger than All Fiction she can probabily do almost everything All Fiction can do and more. When you are an entity from a superior plan of reality aren't you just far stronger than All Fiction already ?
I could see an option where Touma would win, but it would hinge on one thing: If Touma punches Kumagawa, do the things Kumagawa applied to himself get nullified or not? If they don't, well, I don't see Touma winning this. If they do, Touma could outlast Kumagawa (depends on how well these two are trained). The fight would take a LOT of time, but here's the thing: Everytime Kumagawa gets hit, he would need to "rechant" the fact that the doesn't feel exhaustion. But eventually in their fist fight (lets be real, this is what this would end up in), the exhaustion would have build up so much, that he can't "rechant" it and passes out before that. You should not forget, also Touma is as persistent as Kumagawa (see Othinus arc).
The thing is i whould think that Image Breaker doesnt work again his "we are not equal/lossers power" since the effect really doesnt do enything *unnaturall* but bring the opponent to the users lvl
I'm not sure Imagine Breaker would work on All Fiction since it can't negate supernatural things which are considered natural and All Fiction comes from Ajimu who existed long before reality, anything from her can only be part of the natural state of the universe. Also I don't think Imagine Breaker would actually bring back the air if All fiction removes it. Imagine Breaker can't unburn something which was burn using magic just stop the magic from burning so maybe it could stop All fiction from erasing the air directly in contact with Touma but not the rest. So that could be a way to win using April fiction: removes the air for 2 days, it would kill Touma while Kumaga can just die, shill out with Ajimu during that time then resurrect once April Fiction takes effect once more.
@@raito07 IIRC gemstone's power are still supernatural it's just that the gemstone get it through natural means. All Fiction is different, since it originally was one of Ajimu's powers it has existed for longer than the world has, and was always part of it. IB can't negate supernatural things which were always part of the world like souls or leylines so it should similarly not affect something like All Fiction which was always part of the world.
@@raitoiroThat's wrong though. Touma was about to erase Coronzon soul with IB that exist before the surface world creation. The argument to equate soul and leylines with All Fiction also doesn't work because All Fiction are part of Ajimu not the world itself. IB is the undistorted point that forcefully impose the Toaru natural cosmology of the world onto supernatural phenomenon, the effect of AF will be negated as it's doesn't exist in the natural world.
@@OneDragon-ps2pm Corozon is a demon, not an human. And AF exists in the natural world in Medaka Box, in fact it has never existed without Ajimu or her abilities. Edit: Also, IIRC, one of Ajimu's many skills is about being all of creation, so there's actually a case for her being the world itself.
@@raitoiro"Coronzon is a demon" Means nothing. Coronzon soul are far purer than the soul of human and IB was going to erase her. "AF exist in the natural world" Which still be negated by IB because it is not part of Toaru natural world.
Funnily enough, theres now the possibility of Touma just go crazy and use his dragon on imagine breaker at will, and counting that dragon have all of the powers of the others + nullify abilities like reality changes, yea now i bet on Touma
Imagine Breaker seems cool, I now want to see you do something with like Touma vs Pre Crises Mordru who uses magic Yes this is basically east vs west with one who basically can use all magic vs one who can nullify magic.
Touma isnt very smart, but if it takes enough time maybe he'll think of a plan like grabbing Kumagawa and use his left arm to beat him to a pulp, it would at least stop the infinite heal and stamina, Touma would be able to react to any of Kumagawa's attacks to be able to grab him bcz of precog
@@joshuapatterson8269I think his problem against kumagawa is that kumagawa is completely unpredictable because his personality can change anytime along with how he fights. One second he can be arrogant and barely using abilities, the next second he is spamming screws with imagination manifestation, and later in the manga he uses bookmaker
@bot_repair spoke you be right, but this does bring up the idea of stacking: like he would get hit, heal, get hit again, also reverting his state, heal and repeat so wouldn't it stack damage to point of just 100 to 0-ing him
From the info i gathered touma's hand removes abnormalities from contact So all fiction and all that wont work but kumagawa has had imagination manifestation for an unknown amount of time implied to always have it and book maker his original minus Kumagawa also had abnormal strength and speed originally since its normal for an abnormal Kumagawa's bookmaker would take away toumu's imagination breaker and so kumagawa would gain all fiction back
@@Sonzai3 The problem is that, for what I know, irrelevant speed is even higher than instantaneous speed. I remember about the scene you mentioned, but according to my knowledge this isn't irrelevant speed, it's infinite speed. For what I know infinite speed is inferior to immeasurable speed which is inferior to irrelevant speed, so irrelevant speed is two steps above what Misogi did. I did read that only characters who trascend the concept itself of dimensionality can have irrelevant speed
@@Sonzai3 Infinite speed: being able to move in 0 time (like Kumagawa Misogi did, for what I remember. I should clarify that I mean ''being able to move so fast that time doesn't pass", not "being able to move in a zone without time", for what I know the second option is called "inaccessible speed") - Immeasurable speed: a speed above time - Irrelevant speed: only outerversal characters have this speed At least for what I know
@@davidedavide2100 i see your point, and this does make sense, even if misogi cant do that via time erasure he can just deny the concept of speed for himself and access it that way i think-
Kumagawa negated his death several times in cannon that would be undone by imagine breaker. I actually don't see him getting close unless his arm is cut off and it summons something trapped in there but if he touches him he might instantly die.
@@ЕльханБолат This is Saiki without his limiters though, Saiki's gag shouldn't be scalable or given logic in a similar way to Kumagawa's Non-Fiction and All-Fiction.
@@Accelerxtor even without his limiters saiki would lose. All kumagawa needs to do is a surprise attack with book maker and saiki is toast as his powers would get blocked. (Oh and I don't think saiki would be able to read kumagawa's mind beacuse I think two outcomes would occure 1. Something like Deadpool where mind readers wouldn't wanna get in his fucked mind 2.since saiki cannot read and sense nendo's precense same could be applied to kumagawa since he at one point erased his own precense)
To be clear, the IB couldn't destroy phases, as the IB exist inside phases and can only be used as a reference point to erase a phase. The only hand that was capable of phase destruction would be World Rejecter, and that only destroy unfinished phase. All in all, the IB is a power for a weakling to bring down strong people to their level, leveling down the fight
@@mprajpara0078 IB is a power to restore, while WR is a destroyer. Yes Othinus tried to restore her phase, but it was using IB as a reference on where and h ow much phase she should destroy. IB is like a screenshot of an image before it was altered, while Othinus using Gungnir is like mashing the undo button trying to restore the alterd image. WR can destroy half-phases cause it has yet to take root on reality
@@BiriBiri925 No. What flowed out was the hopes of the magic gods because of their growing doubt. IB is only a container, and WR is created cuz said container leaked
Wouldn't kumagawa just erase the effect of imagine breaker so that it wont work on him? Knowing that kumagawa gets an upgrade of all fiction and gauntlet in the future and kumagawa doesn't really need to hit you with his screws for it to work. So wouldn't he just decide to remove his imagine breaker? I mean kumagawa even erased the concept of his own death so he just can't die
And ajimu has 12,858,051,967,633,862 skills and kumagawa beat her so I don't think that one of those abilities don't have a skill similar to touma's imagine breaker. So I think we really know who would win here.
@@roguedragon2523 idk man you just saw the video even agree that kumagawa will win also what's to say that ajimu doesn't have feats that rival 11D she literally has a skill that removes you from being a protag also not to mention najimi has been around and waited for the universe to be created and the solar systems too and guess who beat her and sealed her powers? kumagawa so I think we both know the answer here
@@lux3846 "the video" You mean the video that barely explain Touma feat from the original source? Yeah sure "skill that removes you from being a protag" Doesn't get her past 4D "guess who beat her and sealed her?" The fact that Ajimu was holding back pretty much make your point moot. Touma already fight people who are far superior than anything in Medaka Box. "I think we both know the answer" I think you people doesn't even know the question to begin with. Claiming the other side wins just because you lack the knowledge of other opponent are hardly an answer. So yeah.
@@roguedragon2523Not up to, but “more than” or “at least 11D”. It has been stated more than once that Breaker stopped abilities that destroy everything in both space and dimensions. The last time it was quite recently, Anna, for fun, created the “Structure Breaker” ability, which with one touch destroys everything, tearing it apart in all spaces and all dimensions at the same time. Not in 11 dimensions, but in all. In fact, 11 D is only mentioned in the context of the Esper Teleporters abilities. This has never (I emphasize - never) been said in the context of the whole world. In the world of Toaru there are not 11 spatial dimensions, there are many more of them, up to infinity. And this is without mentioning Phases at all. Because spatial dimensions are part of the Pure World. Phases are not.
Touma feats with imagine breaker: -Negates an attack that slices through dimensions -Negates an attack from Fiamma’s arm -Destroys pillars keeping an angel tethered to the world -Breaks through a barrier distorting space -Negates wings made of Dark Matter -Destroys Gungnir after Othinus throws it. Gungnir is the spear Othinus used to destroy the universe -A cyborg who can copy powers tries to copy Imagine Breaker, only for their arm to explode ----------------------------------- Touma withe the Removal of Imagine Breaker: -Negates an attack with no hand -Something within his arm creates a clone of Touma, with all of his lost memories -Regrows Imagine Breaker after having its cut off -Creates as many dragons as he needs --------------------------------- The dragons of touma abilities: -The white dragon(has the power to erase memories just by bitting you) -The Blind/Darkness dragon(when its near you, you will be overcome with terror and confusion) -The one eyed blue Dragon(its fangs contain the undiluted concept of poison, so anything living it bites will either die or experience a fate worse then death) -The Four eyed dragon(it has illusion and hypnotism powers that can blur the line between dreams and reality) -Flame dragon(it damages things with an energy drain that seemingly burns the life force itself) -ice dragon(is as tough and solid as the planet itself and it breaths ice) -Spear head dragon(releases lightning from its body and fires lasers from its mouth) -The Angel dragon(its powers were not shown) ---------------------------------------- Weaknesses: -His right hand negates the blessings of god, leading to his bad luck -Imagine Breaker can be trumped if an attack is constantly being recreated -Can't negate a spell applied to his body, as it constantly gets recasted -Rapid enough magic can overpower Imagine Breaker -Can't negate a spell cast by multiple people (possibly up to 2 billion) at once -Imagine Breaker nullifies all magic, including positive. This means he’s immune to things like healing spells -Imagine Breaker does poorly against powers with secondary effects that can't be negated -Negating an attack based on karma would only fill Touma with bad karma -Imagine Breaker is constantly normalizing the world around it, and can thus be tracked due to a trail it leaves behind VS. Kumagawa with [All Fiction] feats: -『[All Fiction] makes reality become nothing, as it did to Zenkichi's victory over Kumagawa』 -『He doesn't need to touch things directly for [All Fiction] to work on them, but he does need for them to be in his line of sight』 -『It doesn't function on time, but on causality』 -『Reconstitutes after blowing his head off with a revolver』 -『Automatically activates [All Fiction] after dying to bring himself back』 -『Deletes his aura, which means nobody will ever notice him again (similar to Hinokage's abnormality)』 -『Erases Zenkichi』 -『Could erase the concept of time to keep a deadline from existing』 -『Superfreezes a pool by removing the concept of "temperature" from its water』 -『"If he's not careful, then the whole world will become nothing"』 ------------------------------------ Weaknesses: -『The new [All Fiction] he receives back after trading it to Anshin'in-san is less powerful than it was』 -『His screws suffer from oxidation』 -『[All Fiction]'s resurrections are infinite, but they do have a limit』 -『Continuously killing him endlessly means he can't do anything』 -『Could not restore Zenkichi's sight he already took away; he can't un-remove things he has already erased』 -『When weakened, can't fix Zenkichi's suicide wound, and it's stated that reality created with "strong feelings" is unable to be erased』 -『Can't use [All Fiction] after being de-aged to a 4 year old』
i dont know if you counted this but, In some way of the clash, Kumagawa prob can think of removing the right arm, in which could make the invisible thing go out, and if even Kumagawa is like Aiwass and Othinus that can also destroy it, there is also the dragons, in this case the dragons have the same normal ability of Imagine Breaker, so its impossible to destroy them from reality I also dont know Kumagawa so i cant be sure if removing Kumagawa memories like Touma did with the first Dragon Strike he used + after this atk the enemy(i forgor his name) didnt even got injured, maybe also bypassing All Fiction AND removing every single memory of Kumagawa
then again, all fiction has been shown to not be erasable as the manga shows when someone took away his ability but he still had it although he necessarily didn't. All fiction works outside of reality so even if kumagawa doesn't use it in time, it'll still activate by itself without a host
I think Toma would show enough will power to just make Kumagawa. I mean he out willed a magic God so why would it be different against someone slightly weaker the her?
Shouldnt Image Breaker null the Fatigue and Wound removing ability? But Touma Willpower winning is so in character for him. Cause Touma is t about being the strongest, but the one who can and will stand tall no matter how badly he was beaten down.
I think All Fiction can be turned off. We didn't see anyone in Kumogawa's Verse an equivalent to Touma. Also you didn't even factored the Dragons as well.
Kumagawa would probably be able to negate the existence of Toumas right arm. At the beginning of Index, Touma had to fight a mage, who had the ability to make his imagination into reality (a similar concept of Kumagawas all fiction) and this mage was able to erease Toumas right arm. Touma could still win this battle, because he let the mage believe, that Touma is unstoppable and could grow back his right arm and so, Touma got his arm back. Imagine breaker wasn‘t able to negate the magic of this mage.
The mags didn't even erase Touma arm. He just cut it with normal sword.The mage even outright admit that his ability cannot even affect Imagine Breaker. Othinus a god who destroy the multiverse stated that Touma right arm will not even disappear even if the owner concept are altered meaning All Fiction will not work against Touma
@noobeginner9838 I know but the point is people always say can he beat goku though when a op character is brought up and this is one of the few times someone saying that against a reality warp level character would have a point
@@danfoxdude If Kumagawa activates it before Touma kills him, he would just have to chill in the purgatory classroom until Touma lets go. As far as I know, All Fiction is something that activates at a specific time Kumagawa desires and I doubt Touma would know how long he’d need to hold on (Medaka Box Spoiler ahead) sure All Fiction wouldn’t work while Touma is touching him but All Fiction is still something that lingered even when it’s previous holder died and there was a point where Kumagawa died after he had lost All Fiction but All Fiction still came back and revived him although in a weakened state, there wasn’t really a manual activation that time. So even if All Fiction is turned off, that’s only going to halt the inevitable
@@BUR404 yeah that's fair but if Touma turns off all fiction wouldn't it be like turning off a machine or rather blocking it's power. Like a button that you can also set to beep later after you press it, 20 seconds later for example. If you turned it off before the 20 seconds came or since Kuwagawa is the button in this case broke it while you had it off would it go off? I think Kuwagawa would be screwed releasing his fail safe turned off in the afterlife.
@@danfoxdudeeven if kumagawa still has imagination manifestation which isn’t truest an ability it is just him forcing his will upon the universe to create screws which he can spawn virtually anywhere
You used Misogi's name in english term but Touma's name is japanese how dare you be so inconsistent now I'm going to sue you 😭. Any way like i said on your community post Kumagawa ain't weak so this fight feels way one sided you should've used a different character for Kumagawa.
Kumagawa is the one, Touma is okay but feels actually boring (as someone who watched index and all spin offs he wasn't that good of a character even if likeable) But Kumagawa got me to watch the Anime Medaka Box, the Manga was good too but goes downhill after the kumgawa incident arc, Dude is just the perfect example of an interesting villain while Touma is just... I don't even know how to explain him, though I admit his character arc was pretty good. The second I saw the title though it was kind of Obvious which ability was superior given that Kumagawa's limits besides imagination are that his abilities are an "illusion" according to him further showing how his mentality effects it. Overall, I think imagine breaker is superior for the untrained person but when both abilities are fully trained, I think All Fiction becomes more versatile allowing for the win. At the end of the day Kumagwa is invincible to Touma and will get back up the very second Touma's hand is off of him so Touma will get tired long before Kumagawa does. Another thing about Kumagawa is that he can kill his opponent before giving up since if he didn't win the way he wants then he considers it a loss anyways. So even if Touma gets him to admit defeat it doesn't mean it won't be after Touma is dead, though even if Kumagawa is unable to kill Touma at first there is a chance he takes it personally and tries harder than he usually would leading to a longer fight where Touma loses. That all being said Touma has a huge win condition, Kumagawa doesn't take it personally and after it gets too hard Kumagawa gives up. If Touma doesn't irritate Kumagawa then no way Kumagawa is going to try.
For Touma sadly the anime is just a way too nerfed in personality version, id definetly recommend reading his light novel instead since at least it gives good reasons why Touma was always for like 14 years in top 7 minimum light novel characters.
Pretty sure kumagawa could just make toumas existence nothing. Doubt imagine breaker would work since the target isn't his right arm. Besides Imagine breaker only affects his arm if you hit his head like Oreales he can be affected
Touma was not affected by Angel Fall, a global wide spell that change the identity of everyone on earth without his Imagine Breaker having a direct contact on the source. Ability that affect his entire existence will get negated by IB because it will still come into contact with it.
@overlordzero316 It's inconsistent since even the feathers at the beginning of the series wiped his memory. Or him being trapped in a 100 realities. Targeting anything but his right arm should work
@seid5378 "The feather" The spell that specifically target the mind not the entirety of Touma existence. "100 reality" Othinus affected the world not Touma entire existence which is different. I don't know why this even an issue when Kumagawa is not even equal to Othinus
I think there's a slight problem with the analysis of All Fiction. The ability doesn't simply turn anything into nothing. Rather, it makes it so like that thing never existed in the first place. All Fiction wouldn't really erase Touma, it's more like Touma never existed in the first place, the guy was never born. I don't all that much about Index, but as Imagine Breaker ever nullified something that erased the very fact Touma was born? Hell, I think Kumagawa could even use All Fiction to erase the fact Imagine Breaker ever chose Touma as a vessel to begin with.
Othinus is a Magic God who could pretty much do everything Kumagawa could and much much more and even she couldn’t simply erase Touma from existence. Imagine Breaker is impossible to manipulate in anyway by the supernatural, it can only be overpowered by powers that exist outside of those realms for example World Rejecter. Touma has had Imagine Breaker since he was born or even conceived. Trying to erase him would require controlling Imagine Breaker to some extent which again, isn’t possible for 99% of supernatural forces
@@joshuapatterson8269 yes it is. All fiction works based on causality. Because x, y. For example, a person's parents had sex, so that person exists and is standing right in front of you. All Fiction erases both these facts and makes it so that person was never born. I didn't say that IB would be erased, I said the fact IB chose Touma as its vessel would be erased.
@@colororange_looool8549, like I said, did the magic gods ever try anything like what I pointed out All Fiction does? It is one thing to erase something then and there, it is another thing to make it so like it never existed, erasing the circunstances that lead to its creation in the first place. Again, I don't know much about Index. I'm not trying to be a fanboy saying that All fiction definitely beats IB. I simply saw some things in the video that I thought were inacurate about All Fiction and wondered whether it was those things that made All Fiction incapable of dealing with IB.
If you’ve finished the video, there are a couple of things I want to clarify
All Fiction is stronger than Imagine breaker in every way. While yes the imagine breaker can negate supernatural phenomena, that’s about it in terms of it’s uses. All fiction can negate and erase anything in the universe whether it be natural, supernatural or conceptual. Imagine Breaker only overcame All Fiction because it acts as a direct counter, the power to negate would naturally nullify All fiction just like it did for other universal scaling abilities like Cronzons magic flamming sword spell, phases and gungnir. All Fiction is not 100% full proof in it’s ability to erase. For example, All Fiction apparently can’t erase other minuses, only remove certain aspects of them and Within Medaka box there exist a power in which objects or people damaged by it can not be healed no matter what ability you possess, even All Fiction could not undo it. All Fiction has also been stated to be incapable of bringing back things that have already been erased, but that’s not entirely true as Non-Fiction and April Fiction can return things that have been long turned into fiction. Meaning they still exist somewhere in some way shape or form. Imagine Breaker isn’t anywhere as strong as All Fiction but it does act as a natural counter to its effects.
2. You may be wondering why I didn’t bring up Touma’s right hand entities in this battle, well that’s because they would be useless 99% of the time. The dragons, Dragon Shell, Invisible thing, The fish eggs. All of them would be no threat to Kumagawa. In fact, Kumagawa would just make them into fiction, rendering them even more useless then before. None of their abilities and non of their world ending destructive power would be any threat as Kumagwa would simply revive from anything they could possibly throw at him. The only useful ability would be Touma’s ability to regenerate his arm if Kumagawa ever happened to sever it. We also don’t know enough about IT
3. Kumagawa’s negative aura wouldn’t work on Touma. This is the same guy who endured 100 billion different hells, each with their own intensity and constantly faces down far more powerful foes without hesitation. So I doubt Kumagawa would scare Touma even slightly.
Well anyways, I’m pretty confident in my verdict but knowing the internet, my comments may be flooded with 10 game changing facts I somehow missed about Imagine Breaker or ALL fiction. Well that’s what the comments are for after all.
Fish egg should one shot Kumagawa because it capable of obliterating Coronzon soul. Kumagawa have no feat surviving from soul destruction.
@OneDragon-ps2pm @OneDragon-ps2pm Maybe he can, maybe he can’t. Like you said, All Fiction has never interacted with Soul Manipulation. So there’s also no evidence that the Fish Eggs destroying souls surpass the highest levels of causality manipulation. We don’t know the full limits of All Fiction so it very well could undo soul destruction
@@BUR404Coronzon soul is equal to angel in Toaru that exist outside of human history which include causality and yet Fish Egg still was able to destroy her. I agree AF have no well defined limit but we cannot just assume Kumagawa can erase everything.
@OneDragon-ps2pm in essence, we both don’t know so there’s no point arguing about it.
@craytherlaygaming2852 When Kumagawa was fighting Medaka, he didn’t have All Fiction anymore. He willingly gave it up to get access to Book Maker. He wanted to make Medaka like him in every way. Just some dumb ideological thing
In regards to the girl narrating Najimi Ajimu has like 2 quadrillion different powers. We don’t know every single one of them but there could have been some that heavily exploited All Fictions defensive powers (She’s basically gave him All Fiction anyway). Defeating Kumagawa would have been a cake walk for her
It's ironic that Kumagawa's mindset is the one thing preventing him from using all fiction to its fullest but at the same time it was that mindset that allowed all fiction to manifest
A contridaction.
A paradox~
A Fallacy!
Two black haired high schoolers, seen as losers and weaklings by the system, and was labeled as "Zero". Held an ability that centers around manipulating and disrupting the very nature of reality. Both has a very unnatural ideology, and alwhile they held great power in their hands, they are cursed with failures and misfortunes.
Forget fighting, someone write a fanfiction where they met and gives everyone a headache by just being themselves.
Most reasonable approach lol Touma match ups always end up with me wanting them to bond or just meme around rather than actually fighting, like id rather have Touma and Shirou suffer together in kitchen than in a fight for example😂
Amen brother
Wait... correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't imagine breaker coming into contact with Kumagawa's body result in a massive disruption to all fiction? Leaving a massive window for victory?
Imagine Breaker wouldn’t really disrupt the use of All Fiction that much. Unless Touma grabs onto Kumagawa forever, All Fiction will heal Kumagawa instantly.
Kumagawa isn’t like Accelerator, where he knew nothing about getting around a fist fight and I don’t think imagine breaker can permanently or temporarily turn off passive abilities unless they are made out of certain energies
@@BUR404 imagine breaker specifically disrupts both AIM field energy and mana within a proximity of his hand so he could temporarily disable magic itself but I don't think his hand would do anything to kumagawa simply because he doesn't require either mana or AIM energy to use his power
@@ShynLamoImagine Breaker has been stated to nullify Supernatural phenomenon not just Science and Magic.
@@Chinese_Name yes but that's with no guaranteed safety given even with the previous restrictions he still can only nullify as much as he can physically withstand so if he were to try to counter something way to strong he'd likely tear his arm apart in the process like he did when misaka was going bezerk due to losing control of her own power. Kumagawa would most definitely provide a much bigger difficulty to contain the power since touma would still have to get in proximity and can't just infinitely cancel everything forever without drawbacks on himself, war of attrition where one has a limited resource and the other can just casually keep backpedaling throwing more at him until he wears down. Not really a fair fight
@@ShynLamodid you forget about the dragons
So Kumagawa won not necessarily because he has better abilities nor could he prevent his abilities from getting nulled by imagine breaker, but because he's very persistent and is naturally physically stronger than Touma while also being a lot more skilled in physical brawls than him.
Yeah, Pretty much
What about Shiki tohno
@@kojoappiah7088 BUT CAN HE BEAT GOKU?!?!
@@edwinkombong7941 if he got a free shot yeah
@@edwinkombong7941 Qi is now Fiction.
- Kumagawa
I'm so glad Toaru is getting more popular now, maybe we have a chance at getting a NT anime before I turn 50 years old
Whole fandom on that NT anime copium 😔😔😔😔
@pierocolombo2643 We got them to release the NT translation so there is still hope
you my good sir is incredibly optimistic
@@pierocolombo2643 eh, people were desperate for that 3rd season before it ever came out.
Give it time.
I just wanna see Othinus animated man...
The only way I can see Touma edging out a victory is- paradoxically- if Kumagawa figures out imagine breaker is limited to his right hand and attempts to lop it off with a screw or the imaginary sword. In which case... yeah...
Kumagawa could probably make the fish eggs, dragons or Invisible Thing into fiction so I don’t think that would work in Touma’s favour either
@@BUR404 it depends on how you interpret the invisible thing’s apparent ability to nullify other powers, which is ambiguous throughout different mediums. If it can, then Kumagawa presumably gets oneshot and washed. If it can’t, then it’s getting erased by All Fiction.
It not it just kinda does what it wants
@@worldrejecter1533Yeah no not seeing Invisible Thing getting erased when even Kamisato ran away after seeing that instead of trying to banish it like he did with Imagine Breaker, and All Fiction has range but World Rejecter able to banish even magic gods is much more impressive feat.
@@worldrejecter1533 there's also the chance they cancel each other out too
Bro I respect you in this video so much honestly I love how you did your research unlike a certain RUclipsr… you actually told your honest opinion instead of being extremely biased and I respect that so much, thank you for the video and I hope you’ll get to 10k at the end of this year. ❤
i know bro is def talking about Othinus the youtuber. haha
@@randzanime7656
He is.
I am still subbed to him but i stopped watching his videos,
cuz the favouritism in his videos is crazy
I like this alor you hit every nail on the head i just love it! You pointed out every reason each character would counter the other Kumagawa powers may be equal to phases and thus don't effect Touma, but as you said,; in a hand to hand fights Touma loses just like with Acqua. As you said only words and ideology could decide this fight and that's just speculation :)
So my understanding of [All Fiction] is that it's essentially "reality subtraction", able to take aspects of reality and remove them so they become fictional, creating a conceptual "vacuum" where that part of reality was removed that gets filled in by whatever part of reality is closest as a substitute (minus injuries = healthy, no more blue = green takes blue's place etc). Based on the name/ terms I'm guessing the reason it doesn't work against other minus abilities is that minus abilities are "subtractive" in nature, in that their functions don't "add" anything to reality but take things away from it to achieve their effects, so there's nothing for [All Fiction] to remove?
When it didn't work, it was actually at a time when All Fiction was heavily degraded and weakened to the point where it couldn't fully erase some things. (basically he gave away the batteries, Hundred Gauntlets, to its original owner, leaving a fading OS)
He gets it back later and even makes All Fiction stronger.
Good theory, but if minuses don't add to reality enough to require a substitute, then that just means All Fiction can erase it without consequence. Physical things that are erased by AF also aren't substituted by anything, so that logic would only apply to concepts that bind reality together.
You forgot another possibility
What if Kumagawa saw Touma constantly negating everything with his right arm and decided to rip it of from the shoulder. When Touma loses that arm sh*t gets real.
All Fiction could probably erase a good chunk of the right hand harem but it gets a little more iffy with Invisible Thing
In pretty sure kumagawa has read all of fiction and if not he has at least read every manga
Kumagawa when dragons pops up instead of Touma’s right hand: 💀
@@YourBroZxKnight well he could just all fiction them away lol.
That would actually make things better for touma since the dragons or invisible thing will come out to help him. They can also heal his arm. Its happened before.
The description of Kumagawa's power feels confusing to me, would that really count as manipulating causality? I think "rejecting reality" is a better and simpler definiton.
I think even characters in the manga struggle to call it “causality manipulation”
Rejecting reality.... or.... WORLD REJECTING
World Rejecter...
It's simple reality erasure. In the context of "Medaka Box," he is rejecting reality in a psychological way.
@@BUR404 that makes me curious-how would the opposite work? like say we have "all reality" or something similar in which the user can essentially cement anything into reality
and how would all fiction vs all reality work?
“You dodging my attack was fiction” boom done fight over
Get negated by Imagine Breaker
@@ShameelIrwin-f1d You're not erasing a concept, a part of the body nor a proximity to Touma, you're erasing an action.
It MAY be a loophole, or you could erase the distance between Touma and Kumagawa, and he could just hit Touma over and over again, even if the range of the punches isn't quite right because Kumagawa would need to erase a specific chunk of the distance to avoid the range of Imagine Breaker.
With how hard that man hits and considering he will NEVER run out of strength to hit Touma as hard as he can, I figure Touma would die in few repetitions if not outright after the first hit and a bad landing.
@@fero_zetta unless touma hits him with his right hand. since AF have to interact with it to attempt to erase the action. also considering touma's extent of fighting and his dying punch can break fingers and knocks out people, it's likely on the 'handwaving maybe'
@@alvinreinaldy5148 It certainly does not, Kumagawa does flashy moves because of theatrics, but it doesn't need proximity to erase actions, and Kumagawa's pain tolerance is extremely high, and his durability is ridiculous for having zero boosts.
BookMaker would probably buff Thoma instead of weakening him.
@@fero_zetta And what action did he erase? Touma action. And what Touma action involve? Moving with his imagine breaker causing the erased action to be negated.
Unfortunately, the other abilities of Touma, such as the 8 dragons with their own unique powers that reside within his right hand, were not mentioned. However, I do commend you for discussing the invisibility thing, though.
Ik it wouldn’t have changed much but I think it would have been nice to see a mention of the powers beyond the right hand.
This is a very interesting battle the more you think about it, it mainly depends on how high you scale each of their abilities and how you think theyd affect each other
Like imagine breaker passively attracts supernatural phenomenons like lightning so would any attack actually hit touma?
If Kumagawa decides to erase the right arm how high do you scale the lther things Touma has, the dragons apparently respond to the level of danger and 8 of them were able to eat misaka's sphere which imagine breaker couldn't do so all 16 might just devour all of the supernatural changes, IT is extremely weird to rank and fish eggs are seemingly the strongest thing being at least on the level of a magic god in terms of destruction capabilities with a roar alone
Theres a bunch of different variables that could occur and the only definitive way i could see either winning is if Kumagawa manages to outlast touma or touma does the same thing he did to the bird and destroy kumagawa from the inside out with IT
@@joshuapatterson8269 When Kumagawa erases something it can't be brought back. They are permanently erased from the world. Imagine Breaker can't bring back Kumagawa's past injuries because they no longer ever happened, I also recall Imagine Breaker can not fully restore things that have been destroyed or erased. There was a point where Kumagawa lost All Fiction for like half the manga's run but none of his injuries or changes he made with the ability returned to normal. Only Non-Fiction can return things that have been erased but only by using causality to manipulate his past actions and undoing them.
@@joshuapatterson8269 Again, All Fiction permanetly deletes things from the world, they can't be brought back even by Kumagawa. Only the precise manipulation of causality with Non-Fiction by undoing his own actions in the past can return them. Using your grass anology, if Touma touched the ground, the grass wouldn't return because at that point grass no longer exist. I think it's similer to why Touma's memories don't come back just because he touches his head.
@@joshuapatterson8269 I think you’re referring to Ars Magna? If you’re then both abilities only have surface level similarities. As far as I can tell (from what I’ve read and heard) Ars Magna has to actively be turned on for the effects to stay working. He erased Touma’s memory but since it was an active spell it could be erased by Imagine Breaker? I believe he killed someone using the power as well but they got revived when Touma touched them. Meaning that she wasn’t truly dead but mimicked a form of death due to the power.
All-Fiction doesn’t work the same way as when it erases something it can’t be brought back. For imagine Breaker to bring back things All-Fiction erases implies that All-Fiction has to actively keep things erased. So if Kumagawa turns off the power or it gets nullified then everything thats now erased will come back, including Kumagawa’s own death.
The problem is that All-Fiction isn’t actively keeping things erased. It erases something and that’s it. If it was actively keeping things erased then he would have dropped dead and everything he’s erased would return when he lost the power on 2 separate occasions. The only way to undo All-Fiction is to use the power ‘NON-FICTION’ to essentially time travel and prevent Kumagawa from erasing something. Non-Fiction is actually a power Kumagawa possesses and developed just to counter all-fiction as he’s unable to undo his own erasures. Which wouldn’t make sense if he was just actively keeping them erased right?
The dragons can die, invisible thing is 50/50
@joshuapatterson8269 no, kumagawa deleted the grass, there is nothing to return because it was never there
I mean... Theres one key note here that we can use to settle this argument instantly. "Kumagawa must always lose." He WON'T win. Ever. The whole point of Book Maker is that he will make the fight a guaranteed draw, but he will still lose (by his nature, he will call himself the loser even if he doesn't actually lose. See "The chalk would fade away and become nothing, so it's my loss." versus Ezumachi.) Its like people saying he can beat Goku. No he cannot. Kumagawa will not win, and if he does, he will say he lost. All Touma has to do is nullify Book Maker, in the same way that Medaka does, and Kumagawa will accept a 'fair loss', since someone brought to his level, even for a split second, was able to overcome it and still bring a win. Touma doesn't need to be able to beat Kumagawa, he needs to prove he has more drive to win than Kumagawa, which, while not easy, is not impossible. Book Maker/All Fiction's inability to remove the effects of Imagine Breaker permanently is all that matters here. If the best skill Kumagawa has cannot break Touma's spirit, Kumagawa will call himself the loser and the match is going to end in a defeat. "He couldn't even imagine himself winning" is a literal reason he has lost before, so if we are assuming he has all his abilities at their full potential, he still has to have this mindset.
But what if Imagine Breaker erases Kumagawa's negative mindset?/j
Kumagawa is way superior, no doubt about that. He would still lose because he is Kumagawa, and Touma is a protagonist. But still, Kumagawa is stronger by miles.
Touma negs lol and its not even funny 😭
Your channel is honestly pretty good.
i liked this but the problem is imagine breaker can be overpowered and has been many times and if he just erases his brain or anything that is not the hand Imagine Breaker cant bring back that limb since he would have to touch the area the limb is gone but he cant since he would be gone i really like the way you did this is was good
@@joshuapatterson8269what if kumagawa used bookmaker which will seal away his ability?
@@joshuapatterson8269 if he erases all of him but his arm he can't reverse it with imagin breaker since it would have to touch that part of him but it's gone
@@doriankamanzi6874 Yep agree 100% people seem to forget the fact that AF erase thing from existence, what has been erase by this ability can never return. The only exception is April fiction but that different ability that work similar to AF but erase with time limit once it over what has been erase return and Non-Fiction which specifically ability to return what AF erase to come back. But otherwise, nothing can bring what he already erase back since it no longer exist. What if he tried to erase esper power from existence, or erase time so toma never born in this current timeline. like erase his parent before he even born. That why I said kumagawa can deal with Giorno, such feat is actually possible in theory if Kumagawa will it. Stand can protech Girno true, but I don't
If he knew the arm are immune then just target other part of his body, the brain, the heart, it all work since it has no laser beam to show it work, he just will it and the effect happen. No physical atk need to be done.
Doesn't all fiction erase concepts as if they never existed? So wouldn't it be seen as a natural thing if something was erased to before Touma even got imagine breaker?
I could see that loophole applying to All Fiction but although Touma has never dealt with outright causality erasure before, I think Imagine Breaker would still protect Touma and resist the effects of All Fiction to some extent. However, I don’t think Touma can bring back anything else Kumagawa erases
Wasn't it stated that Touma was born with Imagine breaker though?
Wait...
Kumagawa can't win fights because of all fiction.
Cuz he believes that he just can't win.
That means touma would just seal his own fate by touching Kumagawa with imagine breaker
All Fiction is definitely the better ability. That being said, I can't really imagine it working on the Imagine Breaker.
You forgot to mention Touma’s dragon abilities
Touma would't undo Kumagawa's healing since once the healing is done it become the base line for a person and it would only stop regen or a healing process. My proof is that in an episode Index was near death and needed healing so Touma had to leave in order not to disrupt the process after that if touma would negate her healing every time he touched her she would be near death, but that doesnt happen so we have to assume once an ability is done he cannot negate it (unless the effect is some how unnaturall)
Or the author didn't think about it.
Yeah that's directly stated for how imagine breaker works, it doesn't negate the after effects of an ability like burns from magical flames.
true
still counts@@slesh_master
There are different types of healing. In the novel volume 2, Touma was afraid to use imagine breaker to touch people who had been revived from death by Ars Magna with as they would return to being a corpse if he did.
Normal healing spells like the one used on index simply boosts the body's natural healing capabilities so while the process is supernaturally aided, the final outcome is still natural.
it all come down to a fist fight no matter what, and since people who often relying on their ability dont have much of a physical fitness for a normal fist fight, Touma will always come out on top most of the time. and even if Touma was incapacitated, or get his arm cut off, the imagina breaker will go berserk and tip the fight even more in Touma favor. the only way to win is not to fight.
No? Even in a physical fight kumogawa would win, Kumogawa knows how to fight properly, Touma would just get outclassed, even if he landed a hit Kumogawa would heal himself.
@@jamesjoe1690absolutely not lmao Touma would beat the hell out of Kumagawa in a fist fight 😭 you would only need to watch Index once to know that
I never expected this man
One question: have you read Tsukihime? if so, I think it would be cool to make a video about what a possible fight between Arcueid and Othinus would look like.
it's usually a comparison that people who know the two series usually make
I’m currently watching the Tsukihime anime so I don’t know too much Arcueid. I’m working on a Gilgamesh and Mystic Eyes of death perception centric video so I’ll make a vs video after I’m a little more familiar with Nasuverse lore
@@BUR404 Ahh... The Tsukihime anime...
I don't recommend watching Tsukihime's anime, it cuts a lot of things from the visual novel and doesn't adapt things right, besides the animation is already quite dated. I recommend reading the original visual novel or reading the remake if you don't like Takeuchi's old art style.
if you want to understand a little more about the mystic eyes of death perception I also recommend you to watch (or read the light novel) Kara no Kyoukai.
@@godzillasuper777good to know, wasn’t really vibing with the anime anyway
I kinda forgot about the remake but thanks for reminding me. I’ll read it immediately
@@godzillasuper777You do know Othinus wins right ?
@@Chinese_Name I think Arcueid would win if she was at her full power.
but I don't want to go too deep into how strong Arcueid would be here in case Bot makes a video about her in the future. I'm just saying that she is not a character to be underestimated, Nasu himself stated that she is among the top 3 strongest in Nasuverse.
Kumagawa is insanely powerful it’s just his personality that’s keeping him back
Medaka box being talked about in the year 2023? must be my birthday or something
This should also include imagine breaker zoo, including things like 4 eyes dragon, which basically has aizen's zanpakuto like power, it will hypnotize all 5 senses thus making all fiction useless, since Kumagawa will be using it in his illusion with no change in reality.
"Connection between your head brain and spine brain never existed"
I want to see a hypothetical battle between Kumogawa and Gremmy. One has the power to turn reality into fiction while another has the power to turn fiction into reality.
What's the difference?
kumogawa can reject reality.Ex. getting rid of the color blue. but gremmy can change reality into fiction. basically letting him do anything he can imagine. Ex. turning someones arms into cookies@@pavlemarjanovic1896
Gremmy cant imagine his victory and that becomes reality
Kumagawa takes it. Gremmy on the get go is hard nerfed by Yhwach because even he knows how OP he can be if he learned to practice his power more.
Kumagawa has higher level of hacks than gremmy
Great video as always👍
Wouldn’t kumagawa no giving up be in a way related to his power of infinite stamina surely if he was held by Touma victory is basically garenteed as he can’t heal and don’t have infinite stamina he can only last so long and also touma had a lot more than just his imagine breaker and precognition
Edit: after reading some comments add that he just permanently holds on to kumagawa so he can never revive himself assuming he even can
At the very least, Kumagawa is on Touma’s level in terms of throwing hands so that “holding onto him” strategy isn’t going to work like it did with Accelerator.
That might be true, but I do believe kumagawa is just physically superior as he was able to keep up with medaka and even land book maker on her without using all fiction because he temporarily sealed it away to have a proper and fair fight with her
Wouldn't IB prevent Kumagawa from helaing himself?
Imagine breaker doesn’t permanently turn off someones power so no. Unless Touma holds on to them forever.
i say no since Index was once near death and needed healing so Touma had to leave in order not to disrupt the process after that if touma would negate her healing every time he touched her she would be near death, but that doesnt happen so we have to assume once an ability is done he cannot negate it
Would love to see Medaka or Ajimu in one of these videos since I mostly just see Kumagawa being debated
So its just 2 high schoolers fist fighting each other.
The problem with imagine breaker is Touma actually has to you know stop all fiction with his right hand and I mean the speed difference is huge not to mention af is sure fire hit but it would be close
It’s like people forget how fast kumagawa is compared to touma bro can stop time and is ftl lmao
@@bobduhbuilder6784 I think it's more of the fact that people forgets about Touma being blitzed by many of the characters he's paired up against. At best, Touma is massively hypersonic (in short bursts).
I’d love to see Altair (re:creators)vs either these guys
she'd probably lose as she is essentially a supernatural entity so if she comes close to imagine breaker, she'll get erased and if she tries to fight kumagawa, he could just erase the show she's from therefore erasing her existence and origin
@@randzanime7656 ok allow me to dispel this notion
Imagine breaker:it nullifies anything supernatural
There is a force present in re:creators know as the restorative force in a nutshell anything that goes against physics and logic gets nullified and Altair not only spent a year under it she also stopped it from affecting all of the other characters And her swords are very much real
All fiction
You said it could erase characters but Altair has high godly regeneration so that wouldn’t really do much
Book maker
This would be trying to mess with her character description….which was stated twice that stuff like that doesn’t work
@@midnight-envy Altair transcend her world and the world of her creator.
And finally creat her own.
She literrally transcend reality ! And as we had seen in Re:Creator she nullifies her erasure.
And want to say she had a power far stronger than All Fiction she can probabily do almost everything All Fiction can do and more.
When you are an entity from a superior plan of reality aren't you just far stronger than All Fiction already ?
Nice video and i agree with the outcome. Though can you see Accelerator or Corozon beat Kumagawa
11:03 My culture has been represented
I could see an option where Touma would win, but it would hinge on one thing: If Touma punches Kumagawa, do the things Kumagawa applied to himself get nullified or not?
If they don't, well, I don't see Touma winning this.
If they do, Touma could outlast Kumagawa (depends on how well these two are trained). The fight would take a LOT of time, but here's the thing: Everytime Kumagawa gets hit, he would need to "rechant" the fact that the doesn't feel exhaustion. But eventually in their fist fight (lets be real, this is what this would end up in), the exhaustion would have build up so much, that he can't "rechant" it and passes out before that.
You should not forget, also Touma is as persistent as Kumagawa (see Othinus arc).
11:03 bro 💀
Wtf is that
Touma wins for the simple fact that he always loses.
A loser is someone who loses.
The thing is i whould think that Image Breaker doesnt work again his "we are not equal/lossers power" since the effect really doesnt do enything *unnaturall* but bring the opponent to the users lvl
I meant as in it wouldn't negate it unless he touched the screw
@@slesh_master things that affect touma as a whole dont work with IB
Now Kumagawa vs KNT (Kamijou No Touma) the man who Couvered the Dragon shell with Imagine Breaker
I'm not sure Imagine Breaker would work on All Fiction since it can't negate supernatural things which are considered natural and All Fiction comes from Ajimu who existed long before reality, anything from her can only be part of the natural state of the universe.
Also I don't think Imagine Breaker would actually bring back the air if All fiction removes it. Imagine Breaker can't unburn something which was burn using magic just stop the magic from burning so maybe it could stop All fiction from erasing the air directly in contact with Touma but not the rest.
So that could be a way to win using April fiction: removes the air for 2 days, it would kill Touma while Kumaga can just die, shill out with Ajimu during that time then resurrect once April Fiction takes effect once more.
IB was able to nullify gemstone power which is considered as natural.
@@raito07 IIRC gemstone's power are still supernatural it's just that the gemstone get it through natural means.
All Fiction is different, since it originally was one of Ajimu's powers it has existed for longer than the world has, and was always part of it. IB can't negate supernatural things which were always part of the world like souls or leylines so it should similarly not affect something like All Fiction which was always part of the world.
@@raitoiroThat's wrong though. Touma was about to erase Coronzon soul with IB that exist before the surface world creation. The argument to equate soul and leylines with All Fiction also doesn't work because All Fiction are part of Ajimu not the world itself. IB is the undistorted point that forcefully impose the Toaru natural cosmology of the world onto supernatural phenomenon, the effect of AF will be negated as it's doesn't exist in the natural world.
@@OneDragon-ps2pm Corozon is a demon, not an human. And AF exists in the natural world in Medaka Box, in fact it has never existed without Ajimu or her abilities.
Edit: Also, IIRC, one of Ajimu's many skills is about being all of creation, so there's actually a case for her being the world itself.
@@raitoiro"Coronzon is a demon"
Means nothing. Coronzon soul are far purer than the soul of human and IB was going to erase her.
"AF exist in the natural world"
Which still be negated by IB because it is not part of Toaru natural world.
Funnily enough, theres now the possibility of Touma just go crazy and use his dragon on imagine breaker at will, and counting that dragon have all of the powers of the others + nullify abilities like reality changes, yea now i bet on Touma
I honestly disagree with this but that’s just my opinion honestly i believe it would be a close fight that could go either way
Can touma just hold him with his imagine breaker hand and then just keep punching hime with is other hand
Saten-san doing something to frenda
Summary: 'Nuh-Uh' vs "Nuh-Uh"
Imagine Breaker seems cool, I now want to see you do something with like Touma vs Pre Crises Mordru who uses magic
Yes this is basically east vs west with one who basically can use all magic vs one who can nullify magic.
*note Mordru came from DC.
Touma isnt very smart, but if it takes enough time maybe he'll think of a plan like grabbing Kumagawa and use his left arm to beat him to a pulp, it would at least stop the infinite heal and stamina, Touma would be able to react to any of Kumagawa's attacks to be able to grab him bcz of precog
@joshuapatterson8269 didnt say he was dumb tho, yeah, that why Touma should be able think of plans on beating Kumagawa.
@joshuapatterson8269 idk man, I could have just said "he's not smart" if that was not what I meant.
@@joshuapatterson8269I think his problem against kumagawa is that kumagawa is completely unpredictable because his personality can change anytime along with how he fights. One second he can be arrogant and barely using abilities, the next second he is spamming screws with imagination manifestation, and later in the manga he uses bookmaker
Wouldn't imagine breaker undo the healing and stamina regen as they aren't natural phenomena?
Sure but then they’d come back instantly. Imagine Breaker can’t permanently turn off
all fiction.
@bot_repair spoke you be right, but this does bring up the idea of stacking: like he would get hit, heal, get hit again, also reverting his state, heal and repeat so wouldn't it stack damage to point of just 100 to 0-ing him
From the info i gathered touma's hand removes abnormalities from contact
So all fiction and all that wont work but kumagawa has had imagination manifestation for an unknown amount of time implied to always have it and book maker his original minus
Kumagawa also had abnormal strength and speed originally since its normal for an abnormal
Kumagawa's bookmaker would take away toumu's imagination breaker and so kumagawa would gain all fiction back
Kumagawa can also create objects with his mind so he could just use irrelevant speed, create a sword and slice touma's head
Can Misogi really move at irrelevant speed?
@@davidedavide2100 yeah, hes seen to basically do a kring crimson flash step and erase time, allowing him to move "instantaneously"
@@Sonzai3 The problem is that, for what I know, irrelevant speed is even higher than instantaneous speed. I remember about the scene you mentioned, but according to my knowledge this isn't irrelevant speed, it's infinite speed. For what I know infinite speed is inferior to immeasurable speed which is inferior to irrelevant speed, so irrelevant speed is two steps above what Misogi did. I did read that only characters who trascend the concept itself of dimensionality can have irrelevant speed
@@Sonzai3 Infinite speed: being able to move in 0 time (like Kumagawa Misogi did, for what I remember. I should clarify that I mean ''being able to move so fast that time doesn't pass", not "being able to move in a zone without time", for what I know the second option is called "inaccessible speed")
- Immeasurable speed: a speed above time
- Irrelevant speed: only outerversal characters have this speed
At least for what I know
@@davidedavide2100 i see your point, and this does make sense, even if misogi cant do that via time erasure he can just deny the concept of speed for himself and access it that way i think-
Try Altair she also has super cool hax
Yeah if is normal form of touma kumagawa have a chance
Kumagawa negated his death several times in cannon that would be undone by imagine breaker. I actually don't see him getting close unless his arm is cut off and it summons something trapped in there but if he touches him he might instantly die.
He require to touch Kumagawa or eternity for it to work though. The moment he let go, Kumagawa revive himself.
in short the term lose will never be win.
Can you make Gojo from jujutsu kaisen vs Reinhard from rezero
I’m planning something Reinhard related in the future. Probably closer to when Season 3 premiers
Oma Zi-o bodies Giorno Giovanna.
How come no one talks about kumagawa non fiction ability
yhwach vs othinus next vid?
I think the Imagine Breaker is easy to defeat because it stopped more powerful and multidimensional forces
11:03 what was that
Make the consent of distance not real boom he can’t get any closer or further stalemate
Make video on touma dragon king bro!!!
Didn't you miss out a cupple other ability touma has
What if he put him in a head lock and made him pass out
what about beyond the right hand
Question: Do you think Saiki Kusou could take on Kumagawa without his limiters...?
I’ve only seen an episode or two but I think Saiki would win since he’s a gag character
@@BUR404 I see.
Nope I don't think so saiki has a lot of abilities sure but when it comes to scale kumagawa takes the win
@@ЕльханБолат This is Saiki without his limiters though, Saiki's gag shouldn't be scalable or given logic in a similar way to Kumagawa's Non-Fiction and All-Fiction.
@@Accelerxtor even without his limiters saiki would lose. All kumagawa needs to do is a surprise attack with book maker and saiki is toast as his powers would get blocked. (Oh and I don't think saiki would be able to read kumagawa's mind beacuse I think two outcomes would occure
1. Something like Deadpool where mind readers wouldn't wanna get in his fucked mind
2.since saiki cannot read and sense nendo's precense same could be applied to kumagawa since he at one point erased his own precense)
Can't Kumagawa just use all fiction to remove Touma's speed?
It will still get negated.
To be clear, the IB couldn't destroy phases, as the IB exist inside phases and can only be used as a reference point to erase a phase. The only hand that was capable of phase destruction would be World Rejecter, and that only destroy unfinished phase. All in all, the IB is a power for a weakling to bring down strong people to their level, leveling down the fight
Only IB can destroy phase. In NT 9 Othinus wanted to use IB to restore her phase not WR.
@@mprajpara0078 IB is a power to restore, while WR is a destroyer. Yes Othinus tried to restore her phase, but it was using IB as a reference on where and h ow much phase she should destroy. IB is like a screenshot of an image before it was altered, while Othinus using Gungnir is like mashing the undo button trying to restore the alterd image. WR can destroy half-phases cause it has yet to take root on reality
WR is part of IB. This was discussed in the novel. WR appeared at Touma’s moment of doubt, “flowed out” of him.
@@BiriBiri925 No. What flowed out was the hopes of the magic gods because of their growing doubt. IB is only a container, and WR is created cuz said container leaked
Wouldn't kumagawa just erase the effect of imagine breaker so that it wont work on him? Knowing that kumagawa gets an upgrade of all fiction and gauntlet in the future and kumagawa doesn't really need to hit you with his screws for it to work. So wouldn't he just decide to remove his imagine breaker? I mean kumagawa even erased the concept of his own death so he just can't die
And ajimu has 12,858,051,967,633,862 skills and kumagawa beat her so I don't think that one of those abilities don't have a skill similar to touma's imagine breaker. So I think we really know who would win here.
IB>>>>>>AF
IB was able to nullify power up to 11D. All fiction doesn't have feat to rival that.
@@roguedragon2523 idk man you just saw the video even agree that kumagawa will win also what's to say that ajimu doesn't have feats that rival 11D she literally has a skill that removes you from being a protag also not to mention najimi has been around and waited for the universe to be created and the solar systems too and guess who beat her and sealed her powers? kumagawa so I think we both know the answer here
@@lux3846 "the video"
You mean the video that barely explain Touma feat from the original source? Yeah sure
"skill that removes you from being a protag"
Doesn't get her past 4D
"guess who beat her and sealed her?"
The fact that Ajimu was holding back pretty much make your point moot. Touma already fight people who are far superior than anything in Medaka Box.
"I think we both know the answer"
I think you people doesn't even know the question to begin with. Claiming the other side wins just because you lack the knowledge of other opponent are hardly an answer. So yeah.
@@roguedragon2523Not up to, but “more than” or “at least 11D”. It has been stated more than once that Breaker stopped abilities that destroy everything in both space and dimensions. The last time it was quite recently, Anna, for fun, created the “Structure Breaker” ability, which with one touch destroys everything, tearing it apart in all spaces and all dimensions at the same time. Not in 11 dimensions, but in all. In fact, 11 D is only mentioned in the context of the Esper Teleporters abilities. This has never (I emphasize - never) been said in the context of the whole world. In the world of Toaru there are not 11 spatial dimensions, there are many more of them, up to infinity. And this is without mentioning Phases at all. Because spatial dimensions are part of the Pure World. Phases are not.
Touma feats with imagine breaker:
-Negates an attack that slices through dimensions
-Negates an attack from Fiamma’s arm
-Destroys pillars keeping an angel tethered to the world
-Breaks through a barrier distorting space
-Negates wings made of Dark Matter
-Destroys Gungnir after Othinus throws it. Gungnir is the spear Othinus used to destroy the universe
-A cyborg who can copy powers tries to copy Imagine Breaker, only for their arm to explode
-----------------------------------
Touma withe the Removal of Imagine Breaker:
-Negates an attack with no hand
-Something within his arm creates a clone of Touma, with all of his lost memories
-Regrows Imagine Breaker after having its cut off
-Creates as many dragons as he needs
---------------------------------
The dragons of touma abilities:
-The white dragon(has the power to erase memories just by bitting you)
-The Blind/Darkness dragon(when its near you, you will be overcome with terror and confusion)
-The one eyed blue Dragon(its fangs contain the undiluted concept of poison, so anything living it bites will either die or experience a fate worse then death)
-The Four eyed dragon(it has illusion and hypnotism powers that can blur the line between dreams and reality)
-Flame dragon(it damages things with an energy drain that seemingly burns the life force itself)
-ice dragon(is as tough and solid as the planet itself and it breaths ice)
-Spear head dragon(releases lightning from its body and fires lasers from its mouth)
-The Angel dragon(its powers were not shown)
----------------------------------------
Weaknesses:
-His right hand negates the blessings of god, leading to his bad luck
-Imagine Breaker can be trumped if an attack is constantly being recreated
-Can't negate a spell applied to his body, as it constantly gets recasted
-Rapid enough magic can overpower Imagine Breaker
-Can't negate a spell cast by multiple people (possibly up to 2 billion) at once
-Imagine Breaker nullifies all magic, including positive. This means he’s immune to things like healing spells
-Imagine Breaker does poorly against powers with secondary effects that can't be negated
-Negating an attack based on karma would only fill Touma with bad karma
-Imagine Breaker is constantly normalizing the world around it, and can thus be tracked due to a trail it leaves behind
VS.
Kumagawa with [All Fiction] feats:
-『[All Fiction] makes reality become nothing, as it did to Zenkichi's victory over Kumagawa』
-『He doesn't need to touch things directly for [All Fiction] to work on them, but he does need for them to be in his line of sight』
-『It doesn't function on time, but on causality』
-『Reconstitutes after blowing his head off with a revolver』
-『Automatically activates [All Fiction] after dying to bring himself back』
-『Deletes his aura, which means nobody will ever notice him again (similar to Hinokage's abnormality)』
-『Erases Zenkichi』
-『Could erase the concept of time to keep a deadline from existing』
-『Superfreezes a pool by removing the concept of "temperature" from its water』
-『"If he's not careful, then the whole world will become nothing"』
------------------------------------
Weaknesses:
-『The new [All Fiction] he receives back after trading it to Anshin'in-san is less powerful than it was』
-『His screws suffer from oxidation』
-『[All Fiction]'s resurrections are infinite, but they do have a limit』
-『Continuously killing him endlessly means he can't do anything』
-『Could not restore Zenkichi's sight he already took away; he can't un-remove things he has already erased』
-『When weakened, can't fix Zenkichi's suicide wound, and it's stated that reality created with "strong feelings" is unable to be erased』
-『Can't use [All Fiction] after being de-aged to a 4 year old』
i dont know if you counted this but,
In some way of the clash, Kumagawa prob can think of removing the right arm, in which could make the invisible thing go out, and if even Kumagawa is like Aiwass and Othinus that can also destroy it, there is also the dragons, in this case the dragons have the same normal ability of Imagine Breaker, so its impossible to destroy them from reality
I also dont know Kumagawa so i cant be sure if removing Kumagawa memories like Touma did with the first Dragon Strike he used + after this atk the enemy(i forgor his name) didnt even got injured, maybe also bypassing All Fiction AND removing every single memory of Kumagawa
then again, all fiction has been shown to not be erasable as the manga shows when someone took away his ability but he still had it although he necessarily didn't. All fiction works outside of reality so even if kumagawa doesn't use it in time, it'll still activate by itself without a host
what if kumagawa deletes toumas brain?
Honestly, I never really thought about that…
I think Toma would show enough will power to just make Kumagawa. I mean he out willed a magic God so why would it be different against someone slightly weaker the her?
Kumagawa loses. Always. Thats his whole thing😂😂
Shouldnt Image Breaker null the Fatigue and Wound removing ability?
But Touma Willpower winning is so in character for him.
Cause Touma is t about being the strongest, but the one who can and will stand tall no matter how badly he was beaten down.
can they beat Mazinger ZERO though?
bro forget the invisible thing.
I think All Fiction can be turned off. We didn't see anyone in Kumogawa's Verse an equivalent to Touma.
Also you didn't even factored the Dragons as well.
Kumagawa would probably be able to negate the existence of Toumas right arm. At the beginning of Index, Touma had to fight a mage, who had the ability to make his imagination into reality (a similar concept of Kumagawas all fiction) and this mage was able to erease Toumas right arm. Touma could still win this battle, because he let the mage believe, that Touma is unstoppable and could grow back his right arm and so, Touma got his arm back. Imagine breaker wasn‘t able to negate the magic of this mage.
The mags didn't even erase Touma arm. He just cut it with normal sword.The mage even outright admit that his ability cannot even affect Imagine Breaker. Othinus a god who destroy the multiverse stated that Touma right arm will not even disappear even if the owner concept are altered meaning All Fiction will not work against Touma
@@raito07 Oh it was cut off with a normal sword? Then I maybe must rewatch Index (again).。😅
11:03 ????
I think imagine breaker is one of the few relality warpers who couldn't beat goku since goku is a skilled martial artist with natural saiyan strength
To be fair imagine breaker isnt the whole arsenal Touma has available
No need to compare to Goku bruh. Touma lose to any super power strength people with martial art.
@noobeginner9838 I know but the point is people always say can he beat goku though when a op character is brought up and this is one of the few times someone saying that against a reality warp level character would have a point
best i can give you is touma can deflect kamehameha and spirit bomb or turns off goku's kaioken
So uhhh...Dragon King
Ye videos a little outdated 😭 Touma slams
If he holds on to touma and kills him he wouldn't be able turn on all fiction after he died though right?
If Touma wants to hold on to Kumagawa for the rest of his life sure.
@@BUR404 How would he start his ability again if he's dead the last time he did it he activated it before his death
@@danfoxdude If Kumagawa activates it before Touma kills him, he would just have to chill in the purgatory classroom until Touma lets go. As far as I know, All Fiction is something that activates at a specific time Kumagawa desires and I doubt Touma would know how long he’d need to hold on
(Medaka Box Spoiler ahead) sure All Fiction wouldn’t work while Touma is touching him but All Fiction is still something that lingered even when it’s previous holder died and there was a point where Kumagawa died after he had lost All Fiction but All Fiction still came back and revived him although in a weakened state, there wasn’t really a manual activation that time. So even if All Fiction is turned off, that’s only going to halt the inevitable
@@BUR404 yeah that's fair but if Touma turns off all fiction wouldn't it be like turning off a machine or rather blocking it's power. Like a button that you can also set to beep later after you press it, 20 seconds later for example. If you turned it off before the 20 seconds came or since Kuwagawa is the button in this case broke it while you had it off would it go off? I think Kuwagawa would be screwed releasing his fail safe turned off in the afterlife.
@@danfoxdudeeven if kumagawa still has imagination manifestation which isn’t truest an ability it is just him forcing his will upon the universe to create screws which he can spawn virtually anywhere
Is it wrong to hate kumagawa
“Your power doesn’t exist”
And that’s how the fight ends.
Get negated by Imagine Breaker. And yes, All Fiction was nullified by Lihiko in the manga.
11:03
You used Misogi's name in english term but Touma's name is japanese how dare you be so inconsistent now I'm going to sue you 😭.
Any way like i said on your community post Kumagawa ain't weak so this fight feels way one sided you should've used a different character for Kumagawa.
Kumagawa is the one, Touma is okay but feels actually boring (as someone who watched index and all spin offs he wasn't that good of a character even if likeable) But Kumagawa got me to watch the Anime Medaka Box, the Manga was good too but goes downhill after the kumgawa incident arc, Dude is just the perfect example of an interesting villain while Touma is just... I don't even know how to explain him, though I admit his character arc was pretty good.
The second I saw the title though it was kind of Obvious which ability was superior given that Kumagawa's limits besides imagination are that his abilities are an "illusion" according to him further showing how his mentality effects it. Overall, I think imagine breaker is superior for the untrained person but when both abilities are fully trained, I think All Fiction becomes more versatile allowing for the win. At the end of the day Kumagwa is invincible to Touma and will get back up the very second Touma's hand is off of him so Touma will get tired long before Kumagawa does.
Another thing about Kumagawa is that he can kill his opponent before giving up since if he didn't win the way he wants then he considers it a loss anyways. So even if Touma gets him to admit defeat it doesn't mean it won't be after Touma is dead, though even if Kumagawa is unable to kill Touma at first there is a chance he takes it personally and tries harder than he usually would leading to a longer fight where Touma loses.
That all being said Touma has a huge win condition, Kumagawa doesn't take it personally and after it gets too hard Kumagawa gives up. If Touma doesn't irritate Kumagawa then no way Kumagawa is going to try.
For Touma sadly the anime is just a way too nerfed in personality version, id definetly recommend reading his light novel instead since at least it gives good reasons why Touma was always for like 14 years in top 7 minimum light novel characters.
Applies in real life.
Pretty sure kumagawa could just make toumas existence nothing. Doubt imagine breaker would work since the target isn't his right arm. Besides Imagine breaker only affects his arm if you hit his head like Oreales he can be affected
Touma was not affected by Angel Fall, a global wide spell that change the identity of everyone on earth without his Imagine Breaker having a direct contact on the source. Ability that affect his entire existence will get negated by IB because it will still come into contact with it.
@overlordzero316 It's inconsistent since even the feathers at the beginning of the series wiped his memory. Or him being trapped in a 100 realities. Targeting anything but his right arm should work
@seid5378 "The feather"
The spell that specifically target the mind not the entirety of Touma existence.
"100 reality"
Othinus affected the world not Touma entire existence which is different. I don't know why this even an issue when Kumagawa is not even equal to Othinus
I think there's a slight problem with the analysis of All Fiction. The ability doesn't simply turn anything into nothing. Rather, it makes it so like that thing never existed in the first place.
All Fiction wouldn't really erase Touma, it's more like Touma never existed in the first place, the guy was never born. I don't all that much about Index, but as Imagine Breaker ever nullified something that erased the very fact Touma was born? Hell, I think Kumagawa could even use All Fiction to erase the fact Imagine Breaker ever chose Touma as a vessel to begin with.
[[spoiler]] imagine Breaker is like the origin point of the world's so maybe not because of the magic gods try. IDK????
Othinus is a Magic God who could pretty much do everything Kumagawa could and much much more and even she couldn’t simply erase Touma from existence. Imagine Breaker is impossible to manipulate in anyway by the supernatural, it can only be overpowered by powers that exist outside of those realms for example World Rejecter.
Touma has had Imagine Breaker since he was born or even conceived. Trying to erase him would require controlling Imagine Breaker to some extent which again, isn’t possible for 99% of supernatural forces
@@joshuapatterson8269 yes it is. All fiction works based on causality. Because x, y. For example, a person's parents had sex, so that person exists and is standing right in front of you. All Fiction erases both these facts and makes it so that person was never born.
I didn't say that IB would be erased, I said the fact IB chose Touma as its vessel would be erased.
@@colororange_looool8549, like I said, did the magic gods ever try anything like what I pointed out All Fiction does? It is one thing to erase something then and there, it is another thing to make it so like it never existed, erasing the circunstances that lead to its creation in the first place.
Again, I don't know much about Index. I'm not trying to be a fanboy saying that All fiction definitely beats IB. I simply saw some things in the video that I thought were inacurate about All Fiction and wondered whether it was those things that made All Fiction incapable of dealing with IB.
@@BUR404did Othinus ever try to stop Kamijou's conception? For example, stop his parents from ever meeting?