Liszt v Thalberg: the duel of 1837 (Hungarian, with subtitles)
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- Опубликовано: 20 ноя 2021
- From Szerelmi álmok - Liszt (1970)
A recreation of the infamous piano duel in 1837.
Thalberg performs his Fantasy on Moses in Egypt, and Liszt replies with Mazeppa (note that this is not the authentic duel programme - Liszt's two pieces were the Niobe Fantasy and his arrangement of Weber's Konzertstuck.)
The credits suggest that Moses is performed by Sviatoslav Richter, while Mazeppa is performed by Gyorgy Cziffra. 
Развлечения
The Thalberg section ends with the conclusion of Moses and its notorious lengthy arpeggio section. If you would like to hear my studio recording of this, a sheet music video can be found here:
ruclips.net/video/p4lIR_DYJhM/видео.html
@@mxOL0Yfe Infamous as in notorious. It seemed an adjective with more colour than just "famous".
@@mxOL0Yfe Haha, possibly notorious would be a better word.
Liszt was 26 years old !! It doesn't look like there in this scene!
Hahaha 😂 you're right
The actor needed more makeup to make him look younger.
He looked like in his 40's or 50's there
Liszt looks like he is thalberg’s father 😂
@laconchadetumadrehue hahaha
Regarding the recording of Mazeppa, definitely Cziffra's playing. Tuned up a whole tone but he's the only one who plays the opening scale and theme this way.
Liszt did not do Mazzepa. He played his own Niobe Fantasy. He never had any real competition. He was a towering musical genius.
Yes, I know some historical licence has been taken. I've mentioned this in the video description.
If he played Niobe, isnt that a competition
@@bozzigmupp510 Liszt had no REAL competition.
@@frankmarter6845 I think Thalberg was realistic competition in the pianistic sense: if you look at his most difficult paraphrases he was clearly a very considerable virtuoso. As a composer of original works he was no match for Liszt.
With rockstar status.
Non-pianist: Wow, Lizst actor plays so well
Me: Clearly seeing that he is *faking Mazeppa*
😏
Its obvious even for non pianist
@@user-overload you're taking my joke seriously or you're being childishly sarcastic? idk what you mean, seriously😭
@@toxicbleach723 some actors who act as the famous composers in films are non musician, but look almost like the composer, in the other hand, they look like the composer, but also a musician
@@user-overload r/whoosh
Liszt was a musical badass. Imagine hearing that music for the first time during one of his recitals.
Imagine seeing it!
@@alkanliszt If I were Thalberg, I'd apologize quicker than Eminem rapping! There's no way you can defeat the mad lad that Liszt was...🥶🥶🥶🥶
@@K10-chopinetliszt They were both in their 20s at the time of this: later on they became quite respectful of each other. The background to this duel was a really pointed war of words in the press with people saying Liszt was in the past and Thalberg was the pianist of the future, an article being published under Liszt's name (albeit probably written by his lover) dismissing Thalberg's operatic fantasies, and Thalberg turning down an attempted peacemaking move of a joint recital by saying "I do not like to be accompanied".
@@alkanliszt That's good to know... thanks for sharing both the video and this fact! :D
For filmic purposes, I am actually quite glad they chose Transcendental etude no.4 over the initial Niobe fantasy - it really emphasizes Liszt's innovativion capabilities over Thalberg "sticking to his bag of dated tricks" as Schoenberg has said.
Pretty good producing from a 70s film imo, but that piano acting is... quite awkward I must say 😂
Thanks for the upload
Schoenberg was, in a word, wrong. But yes, silly piano acting. Haha
I love these historical reenactments. But I feel that Liszt would npt have won over 19th century Paris with Mazeppa. Perhaps a gentler virtuoso work like Appassionata would be the better stylistic choice.
I know it's not what he actually played, but in some ways I quite like that they picked it, because it really emphasises the stylistic differences between him and Thalberg: Thalberg being the pinnacle of virtuosity in the classical style and Liszt being forward-looking, the shape of things to come.
@@alkanliszt Completely agree. It perfectly depicts the fact that Thalberg was the traditionally Classical virtuoso, whereas Liszt was always seeking the new in music, and was the No.1 virtuoso of romanticism. English is not my first language so I hope that mad sense!
@@Ash1nerTV I totally agree with you :)
@@alkanliszt Just an idea, why not do a version of the video where you replace the music with what he actually played to have it historically accurate?
@@fefferryerr1818 it's a nice idea but what the actor's hands are doing would look even less like the music being played!
Hum... 1837 Liszt would be around 27, this actor is not even close to his age... Bechstein pianos were established in 1853... At this time there were Erard, Pleyel, Brodwood and so on... This pianos are from XX century, Liszt himself had a Bechstein but only around 1865 (wich is in Wiemar in Liszt's House)... The actor's hand choreography is not that bad... for an actor.
Of course, and the 1851 version of Mazeppa didn't exist in 1837! But I don't think we can expect full historical accuracy in such movie clips.
@@alkanliszt Yes, but he could play the version way before he wrote it so i didn't want to go that way. Another thing is that according to the musical critics F. Liszt played first and only then Thalberg... Well at least they got the pianist/composers and repertoire parcialy wright... They both played 3 pieces, not just one or two i guess.
@@andre.vaz.pereira the generally accepted version (see the bios by Alan Walker and others) is that Liszt played Niobe and his solo arrangement of Weber's Konzertstuck, while Thalberg played his fantasies on God save the King and Moses in Egypt.
I would have preferred to hear the Weber or Niobe but I suspect they just used recordings already out there: I understand Cziffra is playing the piano in the Liszt pieces in this film, so my guess is that they've just picked something flamboyant in his repertoire for the duel footage (as well as picking a piece which provides a major stylistic contrast to Moses).
Both were fabulous. At the end of the day, Liszt was by far the better pianist and could have any lady of his choice, yet would refuse. He enjoyed the difficult parts of life.
It's kinda weird that he didn't use the pedal.
Random information: They used Cziffra's recordings in the background
Yes, the Liszt is Cziffra playing. I'm not sure about the Thalberg though: it wasn't in his recorded repertoire and it doesn't sound like Lewenthal, who was just about the only person playing the piece at the time the film was made.
Nice film bro
Wow what a cool film
Liszt had his admirers and his critics. But as with paganini the motive for the two extremes was identical. Some will love you for being supreme, and some.......
They overdramatized the whole thing and made it look like Beethoven vs Steibelt 😂
Haha, the Princess's famous verdict is certainly missing!
@@alkanliszt I noticed. I recently read an article about Liszt's pursuit of apogee. He wrote to princess Christine Belgiojoso and told her this:
"Regardless of how my virtuoso career has flourished since we last saw each other [duel event], at this time, just spare such "vain fatuity". I am on the verge of becoming the only one of my breed; I don't want to get older pursuing this career. In three years tops, I'll close off my piano. It will be in Vienna or Pest ....." (translated from French)
Liszt and Rubinstein had a magic that came from their incomparable personalities and Liszt's generosity . They need Jorge Bolet to play Liszt here pianist not so very great.
Technical inaccuracy...Liszt's parents were from a German-speaking region of Hungary; Franz Liszt's first language was German. After his father moved the family to Paris he preferred to express himself in French the remainder of his life. He never spoke Magyar.
Yes, I did think it was ironic that this is probably the only time "Liszt" spoke Hungarian.
@Dale Zalewski You're a little wrong. Liszt was born in the village of Doborján (today's Raiding). The name is in Slovak. It was an area where Slovak was spoken before, for example Liszt's grandfather was called Juraj in Slovak and Liszt was called Ferenc from the beginning, which is again a typical name for the Hungarian countries. Liszt's mother language was Slovak, which was not a recognized language at the time.
Liszt learnt the Hungarian language although he was never fluent at it
Liszt’s native language was German. His parents were both German. Not Slavic. Not Hungarian. German. Austrian-German.
Inaccuracy? The actors spoke Hungarian because this is a Hungarian film! So of course the actor playing Liszt spoke Hungarian, as did the one playing Berlioz.
It was Thalberg, who had a Hungarian mother and a German father. Liszt's parents were both German.
Franzie' parents were Hungarian.
@@waterbird91 Not really.
@@waterbird91 they belonged to a German community in Hungary. Those communities don't exist anymore because they were expelled.
Le film se soucie peu de la réalité historique de la chose : nous avons ici présenté deux pianos à cordes croisées avec leur cadre pleine fonte : technologie fin 18ème (les pianos ici présentés semblent même début 19ème) ! Totalement irréaliste pour un évènement en 1837. Pour commencer lors de ce duel il me semble qu'il n'y avait qu'un piano et c'était un Erard de concert a corde parallèles et bien sûr cadre serrurier. Les pianos filmés ici ainsi que les enregistrements (indiscutablement fort qualitatifs sur le plan pianistique) ne reflètent malheureusement aucunement la réalité de l'évènement ni sur le plan visuel ni sur le rendu acoustique.
And the winner is...........Franzie. Of course.
i went to a brawl and a liszt concert broke out!
was liszt fan, the polish contessa begioioso present at this concert?
She organised the concert. I'm not sure if she appears in this film clip, however.
So who played the Thalberg recording for this scene?
This is a very good question. Research via IMDB etc suggests that Richter played some of the other music in the film (eg Beethoven) but at this point in time probably the only pianist with Moses in his repertoire would have been Raymond Lewenthal and it doesn't sound like any of his recordings. Maybe Richter learnt the two extracts for the film?
@@alkanliszt Unfortunate that I won't be able to hear a full recording. My guess is that Richter himself indeed played the excerpt. The tiny section of Moses here sounds so amazing, so full of energy - exactly like how Thalberg himself, then a young virtuoso and showman, must have played it. The few other recordings I know are decent but IMO are perhaps rather too controlled for my tastes. I know Richter recorded the 'Ricordanza' etude too for this film and it's also a pity I can't find a full version, as that is one of my favourite pieces.
My bad, I got confused with Richter playing in "Glinka" (a Russian film). So the pianist who played Moses here remains a mystery. Nevertheless, it's a fascinating treatment of the piece.
@@Reichthoff from the Hungarian wiki page: Szvjatoszlav Richter (zongora) (Chopin-, Beethoven-, Czerny-művek archív előadása)
Cziffra György (zongora stúdiófelvétel) (Liszt-művek előadása)
So I think best guess is that it's Richter. It doesn't sound like how Cziffra would have played it, imo.
4:54 the mp4 file ended lmao
nice.
Lol I was about to read the piano duel in Liszt's biography so I searched for Thalberg and I found this
My brief summary of the duel is here, as part of the sleeve notes on my second album:
d2ajug1vehh95s.cloudfront.net/25153booklet.pdf
Why Liszt looked so old here!! He was just 26 years old in 1837 OK? 🤣🤣
Yes, it is a bit incongruous.
dude never slept and only practised 😂
Steel-framed pianos in 1837??
Why is Liszt playing the 2nd version of "Mazeppa" made in 1851? It's 1837 in the movie?
Why is he playing Mazeppa AT ALL when he didn't play it at the duel? 😏
@@alkanliszt It's absurd. But the movie is particularly about Liszt's love so don't be angry. ;)
@@fazliddinerkaboyev6568 yeah, it's a movie, not a documentary.
@@alkanliszt But he should have played La Clochette Fantasia(Paganini) instead of playing Niobe Fantasy. It's much better.
@@fazliddinerkaboyev6568 Maybe. Niobe will have made a good contrast to Thalberg's style, however.
The whistling is what happened to Wagner in Paris during the premiere of revised Tannhauser.
That sounds familiar actually, thanks for the info.
Conspiracion judia lo de wagner.
💥 In the Liszt biography books from Alan Walker, this meeting is very detailed. The greatest Liszt biography so far, in 3 volumes. 🎉❤
Yes, a really great bio.
The pianist's crying for those hands.
Wasn’t Liszt 25 or 26 in 1837? Why does he look so much older here?
Não tem nenhum fundamento realista, mesmo porque nesse ano ele estava para completar 26 anos e parece ter muito mais idade. De qualquer forma vale pelo entretenimento e pela música.
Ma come fa ad essere del 1837se quella versione di mazzeppa è del 1853??
A good question!
I know it's a movie but they could have at least tried to be historically accurate in so far to pick pieces Liszt and Thalberg actually played at this concert. "Mazeppa" did not even exist in this version at that point and the version that did exist in 1837 was not played by Liszt at that evening.
Very true. But I do quite like the resulting stylistic contrast.
@@alkanliszt That could have easily been achieved by picking the original pieces. For example Thalberg's "Moise" Fantasy is quite different to Liszt's "Niobe" Fantasy. And both were featured in the real concert.
@@Quotenwagnerianer yes, but I'm pretty sure there was no extant recording of Niobe at that point in time and maybe they weren't prepared to go that far. You're of course correct about the duel pieces which WERE played.
@@alkanliszt Thank God I didn't mention the age of the actor playing Liszt. When this Duel happened Liszt was 26. This guy looks like he is at least 46. ;)
@@Quotenwagnerianer Now now, I'm fairly sure I googled and he was 'only' 40!
What language aré they speaking?...
@@Tlamatini.234 Hungarian
@@alkanliszt 😱😱😱..
Me!
Thalberg is the world's best pianist, and Liszt is an unparalleled pianist! ︎
Very entertaining, but it’s a shame that all film studios NEVER adhere to the facts. So much is wrong with this scene, from Liszt’s age to the program they actually played.
But the end result is that no one could come close to Liszt, not only in live performance, but in composition. Liszt was the ultimate pioneer and innovator of his century, and Wagner, Tchaikovsky, Grieg, Saint-Saens, Sibelius, Mahler, Rachmaninov, Dvorak, Debussy, Schoenberg and countless others all benefited by Liszt’s unparalleled genius. More info can be found on the RUclips video ( FRANZ LISZT: Enigmatic Genius )
I can somewhat forgive the anachronistic program, because I don't think that at the point the film was made anyone had recorded the pieces Liszt played in the duel. However I do wish "Liszt" looked a bit younger and more glamorous.
Naice
liszt was 26 years old in 1837, the actor is near 60 year old imho 😅
I googled him, seems he was 40 or 41.
@@alkanliszt too much 🤪
Why were they whistling?
It was the Thalberg supporters trying to put Liszt off (this didn't actually happen in real life, it is the filmmakers trying to add extra drama).
@@alkanliszt ah thanks. And one more question. Was Thalberg playing his own work or Beethovens? It was a bit unclear. Also sounded pretty good. If he was playing his own work I wonder why he didn’t get more recognition as a composer
@@OziCastle His section features the opening and coda of his Fantasy on Rossini’s Moses in Egypt. Actually it was an extremely famous piece in its time!
@@alkanliszt Oh cool! Thanks for the info
Frenz seems quite a bit older . Can' t you find an actor aged 26 as well as handsome enough to be shining in front of the piano?
The actor was 41 at the time of the film. Not a lot I can do about it, 50 years later 🤣
Pianos didnt have crossing strings in 1837 ;)
Why does liszt look so old in 1837?
Yeah, it's a good question, and as the film was made 50 years ago, I'm not sure we can get much of an answer 😏 I guess because the actor (who was about 40 iirc) was not just playing Liszt in 1837 in this clip but also an older Liszt elsewhere in the movie..
Chopin was too scared to come lol
@@RhodesyYT 🤣 don't think he did irl either, he probably thought the whole duel thing was a bit undignified.
4:35
Liszt took my soul out like Lord Marshal in Riddick 2 :)
Black pianos with iron cast frames in 1937..?
Would have been nice to see it on contemporary Erards!
funniest mazeppa😂
Didn’t know Richter played this.
Yes, I'm a bit confused! As far as I know at the time this film was made, only Lewenthal was playing the piece but it doesn't really sound like him or his live rec (which has loads of alterations), so I guess they just got him to do a quick take of the relevant pages? When I researched the film the implication seemed to be that Cziffra played the Liszt and Richter the rest.
Beh la storia ha fatto il suo corso : tutti sanno di Liszt , di thalberg forse solo i parenti discendenti lo ricordano
One gets the impression that music in the 19th c was about who would bang harder on the keyboard…
4:50 disrespectful
Liszt's critics i suppose (someone please tell me the meaning for the word critics)
이창섭닮았넹 😊
Pop stage in 19 century...
It would be very sad for them knowing that piano peaked right there.
I like to think that Liszt would have really enjoyed Cziffra's playing of his music.
Yeah, but one occasional new star doesn't make a movement as the romantic period was as a whole. You had a number of opinions and options to listen. One could say that with RUclips you'd see lots of new composers and virtuosos doing crazy and fun stuff, but you don't. Liszt thought future virtuosos would be much better than himself. But sadly, even piano manufacturing make virtuoso playing much harder.
Genius
The child prodigy Mozart kept under the taught of the "child prodigy" Johann Nepomun Hummel for 2 years. In addition to Mozart, Hummel was taught by the best professors of the time: Salieri and Albrechtsberger. One of Hummel's students is Sigismund Thalberg, the greatest piano virtuoso (he was also a composer) and perhaps the greatest pianist ever, and this can be seen from the fees. Liszt and Chopin "stole" the pianist's craft from Thalberg, they became better composers than Thalberg but not better pianists.
Well first Chopin had nothing to do with Thalberg. Oil and Water. They met but Chopin didn't steal anything from Sigismond Thalberg
@@Deibler666 The piano trade (like any trade) is learned from others.
@@stefanstamenic3640 yeah liszt is better
Liszt the oldest looking 27 year old to ever exist.
mess with the bull, get the horns. can't nobody fk with liszt.
Why is Thalberg looks so similar to that animan guy 😭😭😭
Not gonna lie, I prefer Thalberg's performance more, the Mazeppa one sounded bland...
My reaction to this video
2:11 Yikes you can't play that part like that even with pedal 💀. Off editing this probably sounds bad.
2:18 That arpeggios are so fake.
3:20 That's the fakest arpeggios rush I've ever seen.
3:29 He did not put enough strength to sound like that.
3:32 The horse galloping sound just comes out of nowhere? (The sounding that you need to master while playing this piece)
3:48 You can clearly see that the horse galloping sound is magically there.
4:00 He did not put enough strength again.
4:19 Looks real if you don't show his hands.
4:25 Never mind.
4:41 That's do-able with a single hand, yes. But that may give you an injury or two while practicing it.
4:53 They just cut it out 💀. Just press the pedal and remove your hands on the keys.
4:58 I would do the same to be honest, it's not even that hard to fake piano playing. Unlike the violin.
5:16 He skipped to one of the hardest parts to get in Mazeppa. It's easy to mess up the left hand for this part.
5:20 And that's definitely not how you play that part 🗿.
5:33 He put too much strength this time.
5:41 No way the original pianist playing this failed this part.
6:06 Again, don't show his hands and it looks real.
6:21 Yikes he skipped the next hardest parts. En Douze Exercises reference.
6:47 My reaction when I play this part as well.
7:01 Unnecessary strength again.
Stop drugs
Lol these old films are so dumb... WTH is Thalberg raising his hands above the piano level, I remember in his art of singing applied to the piano he is irritated by pianists who do that and encourage pianists to bring power from the wrists and not from banging the keys with the help of gravity...
Poetic licence for the camera, I guess. But as the antithesis of the flamboyant Liszt, hmmm...
So funny😂😂
"Мазепа" Листа здесь в ми-бемоль миноре вместо ре минора)))
Хорошо, Алькана здесь не было, а то Лист бы не смог играть при нём:))
The Thalberg Moses Fantasy extracts are also a semitone high.
Alkan was the most virtuosic pianist, but not the most musical! He probably wouldn't win. Thalberg was the master of opera transcriptions, Liszt use inspiration from the poetry, but Alkan is just crazy
Even less than Liszt, Thalberg was a virtuoso too and his piece is very banal. He would have played something more virtuosic.
Moses, and the arpeggio section in this clip, was Thalberg's most celebrated success: he did indeed play it at the duel, plus his fantasy on God Save the Queen (accounts are in the contemporary press and also in, eg, Alan Walker's Liszt biography). Liszt didn't play Mazeppa, however!
Che pezzo un pezzo di 5 6 minuti ha più valore e batte a livello virtuosistico tutte le composizioni di thalberg😂..
Лист как-то слишком старым выглядит для 26 лет
This is terrible. The piano is banging so loud why bother playing it with hands when you could get the same effect with a sledge hammer. The actor is too old for Liszt and looks revolting. I don't get the woman having a hot flash over him. This is one of the worst classical music movies only to be outdone by the awful Stravinsky movie "Coco Chanel & Igor Stravinsky"
Early to Mid 1800’s:
The average lifespan was 30 yrs less approximately. People looked older and the average height was 5’5 approximately.
They didn’t have Botox
They didn’t have speakers woofers and iTunes etc.
They focused solely on acoustics of the room. Oh oops, As well as the size of the instruments.
History states that Liszt was a ladies man.
@@DougHanson2769 That's not what the paintings of Liszt show. He was a handsome man who lived into his 70s.
@@marcparella Thamk you for responding. He was the exception.
I believe. I love Love Franz Liszt and especially his inspiration with Paganini.
Thank you for the correction. So much to learn. His Hungarian Rhapsodies especially #2 & #10 are my favorites. Fabulousoussness .
Wish they’d update these movies. By 2024. Such beautiful stories
Liszt actor should at least practice the hand movements of the piece it looks terrible deadass
Trash movie , but very well made ❤
In my view, Brahms' technique, pianism, and works are superior to Liszt's
I would have liked a movie where Orson Welles played the role of Brahms. It would certainly have had more 'substance' in all meanings of the word.
In my view the opposite remains true.
Mohammed Ali wins!
Mentiras. 😮
This movie and academia's whole take on this is completely FALSE. I've played both Liszt and Thalberg. I have a degree in piano performance. Thalberg is actually underrated. In the beginning of this scene, they only played selected sections of "Fantasia on Rossini's Moses" by Thalberg. They only showed the less impressive sections. Listen to the whole thing. The climactic final few minutes are absolutely spellbinding, on par with anything Liszt ever wrote. This is like the musical equivalent of propaganda, made by people who don't actually know what they're talking about geared towards others who know even less. Liszt was amazing, sure. But doesn't mean Thalberg wasn't. To those who are actually familiar with his music, he has a number of pieces that are on par with anything Liszt ever did, including the "Moses" fantasia. Listen to the final few minutes of that piece (which are not included in this scene) and you'll see what I'm talking about.
Agreed academia typically underestimate Thalberg’s role in the development of piano technique: after all Liszt took the three-hand effect and used it in the Norma fantasy and elsewhere; however it's not true to say the film avoids using the finale of Moses, as the second half of the arpeggio finale is at 1:04.
Esos pianos no son de la epoca.
The pianos are so long. Jesus keeps going. Funny.
I wish my music drove people crazy and caused riots
It might. Share us a performance!
Historically inaccurate pianos... Was it that hard to find a Graf pianoforte?
Laugh off a little adversity
Terrible casting for Liszt. Looks like an aging robert deniro 😂😂😂
Hahaha
Such bad cinematography. As bad as Listsz’s music is good.