I think my big problem is that Batman, and DC media has become super reliant on the Joker as a villain. Like Scarecrow, Two-Face, Bane, Black Mask, Hugo Strange, Ras Al-Ghul and Mister Freeze can serve as antagonists in just as interesting ways
This is not really a hot take but don’t u hate it when people criticize the Batman character for not killing joker and they criticize the no kill rule and all that stuff but they don’t criticize Spider-Man who has a no kill rule. Also they don’t criticize the government of Gotham city, seriously why does Batman have to be the one to end the joker ? Why doesn’t the city of Gotham ban together and protest to make joker have the death penalty ?
I def get where you're coming from but unfortunately some people usually have the dumbest complaints with Batman. People have to realize that Batman is not really a sane nor normal human being so his no kill code is based off of his raw trauma and should he ever kill, he would either just lose his mind or he would be so traumatized that he would call it quits for being Batman.
@@bread5384 that’s just how it is unfortunately. A lot of criticisms are very surface level. Superman is boring because he’s to powerful yet those same people love characters like Thor in the mcu. Superman wins to much yet most of their favorite characters win a lot. Robin in a live action batman movie is not realistic/believable to see a man dressed as a bat endangering a child in the fight against crime and yet these same people are able to suspend their disbelief on a talking raccoon and a talking tree becoming friends and traveling across the galaxy.
In the Spiderman part o think is Just that because of the quantity of heroes in NY the city is much safer than Gotham, but the death penalty part: ABSOLUTLY. Like, Gotham city, you also can take things to your own hands
@hungryalmighty7156 That is so true and really shows just how ridiculously far haters would go. Superman getting heat honestly annoys me more than Batman getting heat but sadly the more popular a character gets, the more dumb crap they take from people. Even when you bring up valid counters to someone's argument, they would still somehow not listen and keep hating on a character they hardly know. Trying to argue with a smart person is easy because at least they would listen and maybe know they might be wrong, but talking to a stupid person might as well be like talking to a brick wall
For me, Telltale’s version of the Joker was quite refreshing take on the character, as they made him an actual character, rather than just an evil clown that commits genocide, and have him a personal connection to Batman, with even him it knowing about his own past, which fits with Joker being so mysterious. Also, Anthony Ingruber did an amazing job voicing him.
I agree and both ending for his character i love. Because in the villain one he feels betrayed by Bruce. And wants to be Bruce's greatest enemy because he wants to spend time with Bruce. And in the hero ending well we all know why we love that because of the very interesting take on Joker.
Don't think I've seen this take before but I think it'd have been cool if they let Jason Todd kill the Joker in Under The Red Hood. Would have been the perfect ending to that storyline. Jason gets his revenge and establishes himself as a rival for Batman and Joker gets a satisfying end as Batman fails to save him and indirectly caused his death
I didn't see the Community post in time, but here is one hot take I have. I think Joker is used WAY TOO MUCH, characters like Scarecrow rarely get the spotlight while Joker is in almost every Batman movie. And if he IS IN a movie, I want him to at least have a few scenes of him being Red Hood.
Cameron Monaghan is the best live action joker fight me. He originally was only supposed to show up in one episode but he gave Such a good two minute performance that they wrote the whole series for him
I actually want to talk about injustice. Because Joker actually did do something like this far before injustice released. And that was in the better but less popular story kingdom come. In that universe Joker gassed the daily planet killing everyone inside including Perry White, Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen people that superman cared about. But Clark didn't snap. He ended up arresting Joker and an inmate in a prison killed Joker. I like this because it shows that Joker's philosophy is wrong. He tries to prove that one bad day can turn everybody insane like him. He tried it with superman in kingdom come he tried it with Gordon in the killing joke. But it neither snapped. And when Batman tells Joker that Gordon didn't snap he continues saying "normal people don't turn insane after one bad day." even Joker didn't he had an entire bad life that he forgot. And that's what i like people like Jason Todd and Joker did go bad for a while but it wasn't because of that one bad day it was because of entire bad life. Jason living on the streets as an orphan and Joker (still sane) being unlucky every single day.
The Joker by Brian Azzarello and Lee Bermejo is an horrible comic book that got elevated only by Bermejo's art. If you want to read a good Batman story with Lee Bermejo's art there's Batman Noel. Just read how in both these comics Joker punishes one of his goons that failed him. In Azzarello's Joker you have him rape his goon's ex-wife forcing his goon to see this while Killer Croc blocks him while in Noel Joker surprises his goon during Christmas wearing a Santa's hat and using a sack full of board games and preparing to kill his goon after making a pun that references Cluedo. The first is absolutely not Joker but Azzarello doing his usual edgy nonsense stuff
I personally enjoyed the comic but I understand the dislike for it. It's very twisted and quite sadistic. His Batman Noel, Damned and Superman stuff was solid but I get his Joker is not for everyone.
One thing I don't like is that everyone is a side character to him, like the whole premise of the Arkham games was that Batman faces half of his rogues gallery in one night and his endgame is always The Joker. In a lot of stories he feels like pretentious murderer that manipulates people to join him. He really is Charles Manson favoured by writers.
I don’t dislike injustice Joker’s plan, but I do dislike what they turned Superman & WW into. Yes Superman could break, but killing flash or Shazam or Martian Manhunter? I don’t see that ever happening.
@@kendi5391 He lost the love of his life, an unborn baby and his entire city devastated with most of the population dead. Aside from killing the Joker, becoming a tyrannical dictator he technically "shouldn't" have gone that far. However, he DID go that far. And I think it's more than ok to have interpretations of characters like that. Plus it's the multiverse. These characters personalities and attributes will differ.
@@tyrellmultimedia I'm just saying if it's the same Clark raised by Kents he would just kill the Joker but wouldn't become a tyrant. And sure Injustice is somewhat cool elseworlds story, much better than DCEU and new suicide squad game.
My "hot takes" on The Joker: 1.)Even if they couldn't call him Joker, Cameron Monaghan- specifically as Jerome- was one of the best Joker performances of all time. Also a shoutout to Troy Baker 2.) Joker is an amazing villain but NOT Batman's greatest. Scarecrow shpuld be his greatest enemy, maybe Bane if not
I actually like Harley's heroic turn, i see it as an evolution of her btas iteration. When its done right tho, like in Injustice or (a more canon example) Joker War. Where she doesn't deny that shes CHOSEN to do horrible things. Heck, in joker war she even admits that she deserves to die. She tells clown hunter "do it if itll make you feel better" because she and the joker hurt him. In btas there were a few moments where she helped batman, or where she reformed. I actually like what Punchline offers because of this, a way for Joker to still have a partner without Harley. As a harley replacement. Kinda like admitting he needs her without directly stating it. Shes also another example of his manipulation. He has her believing hes the hero gotham needs. Its more then just love. He INSPIRES her with pure charisma. She believes theres a POINT to his madness, that its NECESSARY I also like White Knight's Marian Drew. Shes another good alternative to Harley, since shes based on modern "new 52/suicide squad" harley, where harley is way more crazy and murderous and lustful (whereas harley even in the comics pre-n52 was always more cartoony)
My favourite iteration of Joker is from the Batman 2003 cartoon. He wasn’t just a copy of B:TAS Joker and he stands out in terms of design when compared to every other version of the character. I like Mark Hammils version of the Joker I do feel slightly disappointed whenever they make new Batman games or shows but only try to mimic his version of the character.
People complain about Batwank and Batman being too OP with his plot armor but Joker is SOOOOO much worse in this regard omg the fact that he’s still alive is baffling.
I think Joker should take a good break from being in media and comics for now. Maybe 5 to 10 years. Batman has so many good villains that are barely used because of the Joker. He’s an amazing villain but we need to see more of Mad Hatter, Ratcatcher, Killer Croc, Hugo Strange and Man Bat.
This isn’t an unpopular opinion, but I think it would be a cool idea if Batman died, and the Joker found that crime was boring Because no one could stop him, and he already became super wealthy. so what if he becomes a hero because that has more action and more fun and the joker is all about action and fun
@@cak17 he makes time for Gotham if it effects Bludhaven. Batman dying and joker taking over Gotham would certainly effect Bludhaven, it will also get many of his very close friends killed. He’ll make time.
Unpopular opinion: I wish they made the joker be red hood still in Matt reeves Batman, he’s supposed to not be the joker yet anyways, would’ve been cool to see
@@tyrellmultimedia There's a lot of stories where he breaks Batman, and not just simply by mind, but his purpose. If you remove joker, automatically scarecrow is there. To me though since he's my personal favorite I'd much rather see him as the main villain than the clown any day.
@@TheBatmanMonomaniac scarecrow is fear of the end and the rise of hope. Scarecrow is Batman's end, he dealt with the fear of losing his parents. The fear of the darkness consumed him to create hope. Darkness vs the light, good vs evil, it's truly match making.
@@XRoyalBlueGokuX I wouldn’t call Batman the light but I see what you’re saying. Scarecrow is solidly in second place no doubt, great villain 👌 They just do him dirty in comics and media, he’s always shown as below thugs like two-face and penguin as far as the hierarchy of Gotham goes.
So i agreed with most of these opinions!!! However, my hot take (one among many) is that i hate how everybody wants Joker out of Batman stories. The Joker, when there is an unseen method to his madness, is the perfect Batman villain. Characters like Bane, Ra's al Ghul, and Deathstroke are great villains for Batman for many reasons, but Joker was constructed as Batman's perfect foil. I think he is necessary not for every Batman story, but for every Batman canon. He needs to always be the nemesis, and he always needs to do something big. Hes a showman at heart. That being said, i dont think he needs to be the main villain in every atory. Some stories simply have nothing to do with him, but even in those that do he doesnt have to be the main focus. Thats because, even with the best of villains, the more you use it the more boring it gets. I think they need to save Joker for when he actually serves the story, but they shouldnt despise the idea of including him either. Without Joker, Batman simply isnt explored to the same depth. That being said, while i think Joker is the best Batman villain, my actual favorite is Riddler and i love his whole Rogues' Gallery. Other villains can be the focus. And if Joker serves the overall theme of the main story, he could do something flashy and dramatic on the side.
The appeal of Jack Nicholson's Joker and Batman 89 as a movie. It was the first time we saw these characters taken seriously. With the jack Nicholson, it's the first time we saw the joker being an actual murding psychopath.
I personally think the “Joker” movie that’s about to get a sequel with Lady Gaga is the single worst depiction of the character that we’ve ever seen. Joker doesn’t have a clearly defined origin story, Joker doesn’t need clown makeup (that’s his skin complexion and hair color from the accident), he doesn’t get bullied and he certainly doesn’t wear any form of tighty whities. Look up “Harley where’s my socks”. Ik it’s stupid but that movie caused so much controversy and fear around a character that could’ve given us a simple bank heist movie with HQ. It’s to the point where I was bullied relentlessly because I wore briefs and they said it made me no better than the fucking Joker, a mad incel (I’m not). I was given a testicular torsion with my underwear by some gym bro that saw the movie and wanted to see if he could “turn me into Joker”. I feel like if DC woulda done something else with movie, ANYTHING else with that movie this woulda never happened to me. I love DC and actually have my own screen play I’d been writing for years in hopes of selling it to them, but now I just don’t know. Ik this isn’t a trauma space but I just needed someone to here my story😔
I like the idea of Punchline, a chronically online clout chaser who chooses to be a joker henchman for fame. If the writers did her justice she could be an interesting character. They just need to lean away from the Harley Quinn replacement thing
Joker is supposed to be the opposite of the batman and pure chaos so he's best when he represents chaos I think the overused argument is kinda dumb as he sells. It's the same problem with say Dragon Ball. Fans complain that Goku and Vegeta get to much screen time yet when other characters are focused on interest drops.
I like serious comics but let’s be honest Joker is better gruesome and funny not just a full on ass hat. Joker is supposed to be funny or have fun he does what he does for fun
Honestly, joker is my favourite dc villain, but there are so many other iconic villains to utilise that we should be treating joker like the villain that always comes back eventually, to the point where we actually get excited to see him again, instead of going "oh great... the joker...again?!?" Love the video mate keep up the great work :).
Thanks man! And thanks for your input! It's true though. Joker should be a "suprise". We expect him far too much now and he's lost his elemental shock value.
My hot take is that he has become a character reliant on needing other people. And so needs someone like Punchline who can fulfil his plans. Some should be absolutely crazy until the master plan has come to fruition and others should be done simply to mess with Batman.
Joker the best villain for me. He is no tragic villain just a good old fashion bad guy. I wish they gave him some superpower like a healing factor. Also wish to see punchline with him more.
Holy shit thank you. I can't believe how many people seem to think that Joker and Batman's relationship goes both ways. Joker can't live without Batman but Batman wouldn't spend a single solitary second mourning Joker even if he won't kill him himself. It's insane how many times I've seen people say "Batman needs Joker" or something similar As for the One Bad Day idea, I think the lesson from it should always be that Joker is wrong. In Killing Joke, Joker put Gordon through the worst day of his life, in No Man's Land he killed Gordon's wife and neither time did Gordon stoop to Joker's level because he is a better man than Joker could ever hope to be. Joker killed Bruce's surrogate son and Batman still refused to kill him. The Dark Knight should be the only exception
I find these writers/directors are always trying to push the limits and they feel that with a character like the Joker, they need to go that extra mile cause he's "CRAZY"!!!! They're replacing good, solid, interesting, intriguing, storytelling with shock factor events. Hey, let's have the Joker kill puppies for no apparent reason! Maybe the think we're getting bored with his previous antics, but I don't believe that's what's causing the boredom. Write better overall stories and MAKE BETTER CONTENT when producing movies for fans.
The joker should go back to being a mystery, him having a Story and character, maybe one day he just chose to exist, we dont need him as a victim or anything he should go back to being terrifying, a force of pure evil and a schemer. Also Cameron Monoghan is my personal favourite performance alongside Mark Hamil, Heath Ledger and John DiMaggio. Me seeing Camerons my favourite definitely goes against the prev statement if him having no backstory but i believe he could act as all of Jokers personalities
I'd personally like to see the Joker's story end not with Batman but with Redhood. I don't like Batman breaking his code but I do believe the joker needs to go, and who better then Jason todd. I think it would be even more interesting if Jason actually convinced Barbara to go along with his plan. This would happen when Barbara has become batgirl a second time. By the end of this story joker is dead, Jason realised what Bruce means by no kill and Barbara realises that after all this time she's not worthy of the batgirl title and so she returns to oracle.
I think part of why Batman can't let Joker die because there is a part of him that wants Joker to die. Anyone else dies and it's a tragedy, but if Joker dies then there's almost a relief and more than any other potential death. Joker's would be the most likely to trigger the slippery slope argument of "it always starts with one"
I think that Joker should alternate between being sadistic and just funny. One day he's "I'm gonna carve smiles onto all these orphans faces 😈" to "I'm gonna throw a pie in that guy's face 🤪"
My hot take is for joker to be killed off, for good, because I personally am tired of seeing him in everything, doesn’t stop appearing in games, gets two dumb solo movies, keep finding ways to keep him from dying in the comics, and making him so comedically psychopathing that no one else killing him yet is appaling. I feel like the only reason they keep him alive is because hes too popular and its too hard to come up with a new antagonist
@@tyrellmultimedia whenever I think of Injustice Superman, I think of one of the most terrible things he did killing was Green Arrow leaving his and Black Canary's child without a father
I agree Nicholson`s Joker was overrated. My problem wasn`t so much Nicholson being fatter than Joker in The Comics because even though Joker is usually pencil thin in The Comics, there have been stockier depictions of him (Ie in the "Joker" graphic novel, "Dark Knight Returns", "Gotham" and "Under The Red Hood") that worked IMHO, the issue I have with Burton`s take on the Batman and Joker relationship is to me the whole making Joker the killer of Batman`s parents makes the randomness and tragedy of their deaths less so in a sense because they were murdered by the literal embodiment of insanity in the DC Universe. Them being killed by a nobody adds to the tragedy! I also don`t like how so many depictions in recent years make Joker connected to Bruce Wayne before he becomes Batman in general, that sorta takes away from the mystique and wildcard nature of the character in my mind.I also think Nicholson`s not that great an actor or human being to begin with fer a multitude of reasons as well.
does anyone know the name of the illustrator who drew the designs at 4:23 , Ive seen these designs in colouring books and merchandise but i can't find who drew them. I think this person also illustrated some merchandise for Superman.
Ra's Al Ghul or Hugo Strange should be Batman’s nemesis. Joker is overused and overrated as a threat. Batman has transcended fighting against mob villains now it should be with the ones I mentioned earlier Clayface, The enhanced assassin Philo Zeiss, Doctor Death, Bane, Sin Tzu, Mister Freeze, Scarecrow, Caraxes, Kobra Cult, Poison Ivy, Wrath, Kirk Langstrom, Iog Sotha, Calculator and Achilles Milo. All are outside of Philo Zeiss and Clayface genius polymathic intellectuals that would test Batman to his limits while some are also physical threats as well. I would also add the new villain Emperor Penguin and Failsafe Android. Batman needs to have cleaned up Gotham since he's highly intelligent, trained highly intelligent apprentices, and has billions of dollars for the city to have a revolving door of prison escapes. Let him Globetrot with the JL but actually get along with friends/family/allies for once.
Strange I can absolutely agree with especially in stuff like The Batman 04 where he makes a robot far beyond anything Batman can handle …Ra’s is a bit more debatable
@@billyboleson2830 Ra's Al Ghul was specifically created by Neil Adams and Dennis O'Neil to be Batman’s Moriarty that's why. He is what Batman would be if he killed people. I also think he needs redemption after being watered-down and ruined on Arrow CW by standing around with his arms behind his back talking like a fortune cookie to portray wisdom and intelligence. Why do you not like Ra’s?
My unpopular Joker opinions: 1) Death of the Family and Endgame are not too edgy in their portrayals of the Joker. His violence in both of those stories is supposed to be uncharacteristic of him, as several of the characters remark that he's meaner and more brutal than he ever has been in the past. And in both of those stories, he's being more gruesome with purpose. He cut his face off to make a statement. I think stories that followed those two misunderstood and thought brutal face-cutting Joker was inherently cool, when in reality it was the context and purpose of his brutality in these stories that made it interesting. After these two stories it was edgy for edge's sake, and that made it overblown and bland. 2) I like what Chip Zdarsky has done with him. We've been dealing with a different Batman and Joker since the New 52, and in spite of a few retcons since then, we still are. Both of them have different origin stories than the ones that came before the New 52. Having separated the old Joker from the New Joker, I like that Zdarsky has made this version's purpose bringing out the "Purest Batman" (Zur-Bats) in Bruce. It sort of plays off of how their relationship began in Zero Year, and follows what Joker was saying in Death of the Family. Reading the two runs back to back almost makes it seem like Snyder was foreshadowing Zdarsky's work.
Cool. It is interesting to see a hot take that isn't just Joker is overrated nonsense. No character becomes popular if they aren't in the least entertaining to the audience and written pretty well. People need to understand that just because your favourite villain is less popular than the main one doesn't mean the main one suddenly isn't good. If Scarecrow were to have the spotlight then it wouldn't take long before people call him overrated too.
@@Rengokuo4o6 I understand the Joker fatigue, really I do. I was there when we got Arkham Origins and it turned out to be a Joker Story that rhymed with Arkham City. I was there when the Joker appeared in Arkham Knight after we all thought he would get NOTHING MORE (though I don't hate his inclusion). I groaned when I saw that he was gonna be in The Batman II. But I read Death of the Family and Endgame AFTER all of that, and it cured my Joker fatigue because I saw something actually interesting. And I see that in Zdarsky's work too. We never get tired of Batman being in these stories, but we do get tired of Joker simply because he's often used as a cash grab or as hollow shock value. Unfortunately that means that his good appearances are waved away as well. What he needs isn't to appear less often, he needs to appear with real purpose.
@thecreatornooj1328 I agree. But saying that they should give other villains the spotlight is very different from saying he is overrated. That to me is just stupid. If any other villain is given the spotlight or becomes popular, I think people would throw the overrated word too. This is because it isn't about getting frustrated with the purposeless use of his character, it is simply about hating because he is popular. I personally also think he is overused but to say he is overrated....No.
you gotta realize though that there are different types of iterations and what the universe in whole is supposed to be like The pattinson verse for example has been shown to be a noir and dark type of iteration while bale and btas was more on the side of action in whole so its really just what you find better but there is no need to hate on other versions and discredit it when it just is not your cup of tea
Nah I think that neck snap was enough to kill him. Joker would have died eventually if he chose not to twist his neck further. Batman came into that encounter with the clear intention to kill him. I also have a theory that Joker was already dead after Batman snapped his neck and he was just hallucinating when talking to him.
9:58 that's a dumb take cause you could say the same for most comic book characters, "doc ock is just an octopus man, he's nothing special" like i don't understand what this guy is trying to say They're important because of their role in the story so judging joker or any character based off of their concept isn't a good way to dictate whether or not he is important
The neck snap he delivered to the Joker was fatal. Even if Joker didn't end his own life, it would have ended eventually. Regardless, Batman went into that final battle with the intention of killing him.
I think my big problem is that Batman, and DC media has become super reliant on the Joker as a villain.
Like Scarecrow, Two-Face, Bane, Black Mask, Hugo Strange, Ras Al-Ghul and Mister Freeze can serve as antagonists in just as interesting ways
This is not really a hot take but don’t u hate it when people criticize the Batman character for not killing joker and they criticize the no kill rule and all that stuff but they don’t criticize Spider-Man who has a no kill rule. Also they don’t criticize the government of Gotham city, seriously why does Batman have to be the one to end the joker ? Why doesn’t the city of Gotham ban together and protest to make joker have the death penalty ?
NY isn’t always in the state of despair that Gotham is
I def get where you're coming from but unfortunately some people usually have the dumbest complaints with Batman. People have to realize that Batman is not really a sane nor normal human being so his no kill code is based off of his raw trauma and should he ever kill, he would either just lose his mind or he would be so traumatized that he would call it quits for being Batman.
@@bread5384 that’s just how it is unfortunately. A lot of criticisms are very surface level. Superman is boring because he’s to powerful yet those same people love characters like Thor in the mcu. Superman wins to much yet most of their favorite characters win a lot. Robin in a live action batman movie is not realistic/believable to see a man dressed as a bat endangering a child in the fight against crime and yet these same people are able to suspend their disbelief on a talking raccoon and a talking tree becoming friends and traveling across the galaxy.
In the Spiderman part o think is Just that because of the quantity of heroes in NY the city is much safer than Gotham, but the death penalty part: ABSOLUTLY. Like, Gotham city, you also can take things to your own hands
@hungryalmighty7156 That is so true and really shows just how ridiculously far haters would go. Superman getting heat honestly annoys me more than Batman getting heat but sadly the more popular a character gets, the more dumb crap they take from people. Even when you bring up valid counters to someone's argument, they would still somehow not listen and keep hating on a character they hardly know. Trying to argue with a smart person is easy because at least they would listen and maybe know they might be wrong, but talking to a stupid person might as well be like talking to a brick wall
Excluding joker, Scarecrow is probably the best batman villain in my opinion.
In my opinion joker is not overrated, just overused.
Exactly. Overused. Scarecrow is amazing, Arkham Knight oddly enough got Scarecrow so right and showed how incredible he can be as a villain
Jonathan Crane is one of my favorite fictional characters, period. There is just so much to be uncovered with him.
For me, Telltale’s version of the Joker was quite refreshing take on the character, as they made him an actual character, rather than just an evil clown that commits genocide, and have him a personal connection to Batman, with even him it knowing about his own past, which fits with Joker being so mysterious. Also, Anthony Ingruber did an amazing job voicing him.
I agree and both ending for his character i love. Because in the villain one he feels betrayed by Bruce. And wants to be Bruce's greatest enemy because he wants to spend time with Bruce. And in the hero ending well we all know why we love that because of the very interesting take on Joker.
Unpopular Opinion:
As long as it’s a limited or minor role, I don’t mind Barry Keoghan returning as The Joker.
Don't think I've seen this take before but I think it'd have been cool if they let Jason Todd kill the Joker in Under The Red Hood. Would have been the perfect ending to that storyline. Jason gets his revenge and establishes himself as a rival for Batman and Joker gets a satisfying end as Batman fails to save him and indirectly caused his death
I like it!
Well if I did kill him I wouldn’t have grown as a character
Joker is a clown, he should be funny while making us feel bad by thinking he is funny and be a alegory about of the absudits of society.
I didn't see the Community post in time, but here is one hot take I have.
I think Joker is used WAY TOO MUCH, characters like Scarecrow rarely get the spotlight while Joker is in almost every Batman movie.
And if he IS IN a movie, I want him to at least have a few scenes of him being Red Hood.
Not really a hot take, lots of people including myself share this same sentiment
@@sloshtugz4087 Fair.
But I do wish I saw him more as Red Hood.
Since (correct me if I'm wrong) we've never gotten a Red Hood in the movies.
Batman storyline without a joker is like WrestleMania without Brock Lesnar
@@Exiler_ Not really though
Batman has the best rogues gallery and overused clown doesn't need to show up in all of them
Joker backstories are so funny like what how do any of these make him into one of the greatest chemists in the world
Cameron Monaghan is the best live action joker fight me. He originally was only supposed to show up in one episode but he gave Such a good two minute performance that they wrote the whole series for him
I actually want to talk about injustice. Because Joker actually did do something like this far before injustice released. And that was in the better but less popular story kingdom come. In that universe Joker gassed the daily planet killing everyone inside including Perry White, Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen people that superman cared about. But Clark didn't snap. He ended up arresting Joker and an inmate in a prison killed Joker. I like this because it shows that Joker's philosophy is wrong. He tries to prove that one bad day can turn everybody insane like him. He tried it with superman in kingdom come he tried it with Gordon in the killing joke. But it neither snapped. And when Batman tells Joker that Gordon didn't snap he continues saying "normal people don't turn insane after one bad day." even Joker didn't he had an entire bad life that he forgot. And that's what i like people like Jason Todd and Joker did go bad for a while but it wasn't because of that one bad day it was because of entire bad life. Jason living on the streets as an orphan and Joker (still sane) being unlucky every single day.
The Joker by Brian Azzarello and Lee Bermejo is an horrible comic book that got elevated only by Bermejo's art.
If you want to read a good Batman story with Lee Bermejo's art there's Batman Noel.
Just read how in both these comics Joker punishes one of his goons that failed him.
In Azzarello's Joker you have him rape his goon's ex-wife forcing his goon to see this while Killer Croc blocks him while in Noel Joker surprises his goon during Christmas wearing a Santa's hat and using a sack full of board games and preparing to kill his goon after making a pun that references Cluedo.
The first is absolutely not Joker but Azzarello doing his usual edgy nonsense stuff
I personally enjoyed the comic but I understand the dislike for it. It's very twisted and quite sadistic. His Batman Noel, Damned and Superman stuff was solid but I get his Joker is not for everyone.
One thing I don't like is that everyone is a side character to him, like the whole premise of the Arkham games was that Batman faces half of his rogues gallery in one night and his endgame is always The Joker. In a lot of stories he feels like pretentious murderer that manipulates people to join him. He really is Charles Manson favoured by writers.
I don’t dislike injustice Joker’s plan, but I do dislike what they turned Superman & WW into.
Yes Superman could break, but killing flash or Shazam or Martian Manhunter? I don’t see that ever happening.
When you're so far gone I don't think anything is off limits.
@@tyrellmultimedia It's still same Clark raised by Kents, he just wouldn't go that far.
@@kendi5391 He lost the love of his life, an unborn baby and his entire city devastated with most of the population dead.
Aside from killing the Joker, becoming a tyrannical dictator he technically "shouldn't" have gone that far. However, he DID go that far. And I think it's more than ok to have interpretations of characters like that. Plus it's the multiverse. These characters personalities and attributes will differ.
@@tyrellmultimedia I'm just saying if it's the same Clark raised by Kents he would just kill the Joker but wouldn't become a tyrant.
And sure Injustice is somewhat cool elseworlds story, much better than DCEU and new suicide squad game.
My "hot takes" on The Joker:
1.)Even if they couldn't call him Joker, Cameron Monaghan- specifically as Jerome- was one of the best Joker performances of all time. Also a shoutout to Troy Baker
2.) Joker is an amazing villain but NOT Batman's greatest. Scarecrow shpuld be his greatest enemy, maybe Bane if not
I actually like Harley's heroic turn, i see it as an evolution of her btas iteration. When its done right tho, like in Injustice or (a more canon example) Joker War. Where she doesn't deny that shes CHOSEN to do horrible things. Heck, in joker war she even admits that she deserves to die. She tells clown hunter "do it if itll make you feel better" because she and the joker hurt him. In btas there were a few moments where she helped batman, or where she reformed.
I actually like what Punchline offers because of this, a way for Joker to still have a partner without Harley. As a harley replacement. Kinda like admitting he needs her without directly stating it. Shes also another example of his manipulation. He has her believing hes the hero gotham needs. Its more then just love. He INSPIRES her with pure charisma. She believes theres a POINT to his madness, that its NECESSARY
I also like White Knight's Marian Drew. Shes another good alternative to Harley, since shes based on modern "new 52/suicide squad" harley, where harley is way more crazy and murderous and lustful (whereas harley even in the comics pre-n52 was always more cartoony)
My favourite iteration of Joker is from the Batman 2003 cartoon. He wasn’t just a copy of B:TAS Joker and he stands out in terms of design when compared to every other version of the character. I like Mark Hammils version of the Joker I do feel slightly disappointed whenever they make new Batman games or shows but only try to mimic his version of the character.
Rasta Joker from The Batman 04 is one of the best versions of the character
People complain about Batwank and Batman being too OP with his plot armor but Joker is SOOOOO much worse in this regard omg the fact that he’s still alive is baffling.
I think Joker should take a good break from being in media and comics for now. Maybe 5 to 10 years. Batman has so many good villains that are barely used because of the Joker. He’s an amazing villain but we need to see more of Mad Hatter, Ratcatcher, Killer Croc, Hugo Strange and Man Bat.
This isn’t an unpopular opinion, but I think it would be a cool idea if Batman died, and the Joker found that crime was boring Because no one could stop him, and he already became super wealthy. so what if he becomes a hero because that has more action and more fun and the joker is all about action and fun
Nightwing could stop joker man
@@TheBatmanMonomaniac I feel like his hands would be full with blood haven
@@cak17 he makes time for Gotham if it effects Bludhaven. Batman dying and joker taking over Gotham would certainly effect Bludhaven, it will also get many of his very close friends killed. He’ll make time.
@@cak17 if not, Alfred will take the matter into his own hands.
@@cak17 plus I’m clearly only thinking of the bat family here. Let’s not forget the boyscout that lives next door lol.
Unpopular opinion:
I wish they made the joker be red hood still in Matt reeves Batman, he’s supposed to not be the joker yet anyways, would’ve been cool to see
Scarecrow deserves to overthrow the Joker
He is a great villain
@@tyrellmultimedia There's a lot of stories where he breaks Batman, and not just simply by mind, but his purpose. If you remove joker, automatically scarecrow is there. To me though since he's my personal favorite I'd much rather see him as the main villain than the clown any day.
@@XRoyalBlueGokuXI still prefer Joker. Their dynamic is supposed to be comedy versus tragedy. But now they’re both just tragedy lol
@@TheBatmanMonomaniac scarecrow is fear of the end and the rise of hope. Scarecrow is Batman's end, he dealt with the fear of losing his parents. The fear of the darkness consumed him to create hope. Darkness vs the light, good vs evil, it's truly match making.
@@XRoyalBlueGokuX I wouldn’t call Batman the light but I see what you’re saying. Scarecrow is solidly in second place no doubt, great villain 👌
They just do him dirty in comics and media, he’s always shown as below thugs like two-face and penguin as far as the hierarchy of Gotham goes.
So i agreed with most of these opinions!!! However, my hot take (one among many) is that i hate how everybody wants Joker out of Batman stories. The Joker, when there is an unseen method to his madness, is the perfect Batman villain. Characters like Bane, Ra's al Ghul, and Deathstroke are great villains for Batman for many reasons, but Joker was constructed as Batman's perfect foil. I think he is necessary not for every Batman story, but for every Batman canon. He needs to always be the nemesis, and he always needs to do something big. Hes a showman at heart. That being said, i dont think he needs to be the main villain in every atory. Some stories simply have nothing to do with him, but even in those that do he doesnt have to be the main focus. Thats because, even with the best of villains, the more you use it the more boring it gets. I think they need to save Joker for when he actually serves the story, but they shouldnt despise the idea of including him either. Without Joker, Batman simply isnt explored to the same depth. That being said, while i think Joker is the best Batman villain, my actual favorite is Riddler and i love his whole Rogues' Gallery. Other villains can be the focus. And if Joker serves the overall theme of the main story, he could do something flashy and dramatic on the side.
The appeal of Jack Nicholson's Joker and Batman 89 as a movie. It was the first time we saw these characters taken seriously. With the jack Nicholson, it's the first time we saw the joker being an actual murding psychopath.
And he's still silly. I don't really understand when people say BTAS Joker is the best, but then don't like Nicholson
My favorite type of joker is the ones who are funny but then do something terrible and make you feel bad for laughing at him.
I personally think the “Joker” movie that’s about to get a sequel with Lady Gaga is the single worst depiction of the character that we’ve ever seen. Joker doesn’t have a clearly defined origin story, Joker doesn’t need clown makeup (that’s his skin complexion and hair color from the accident), he doesn’t get bullied and he certainly doesn’t wear any form of tighty whities. Look up “Harley where’s my socks”. Ik it’s stupid but that movie caused so much controversy and fear around a character that could’ve given us a simple bank heist movie with HQ. It’s to the point where I was bullied relentlessly because I wore briefs and they said it made me no better than the fucking Joker, a mad incel (I’m not). I was given a testicular torsion with my underwear by some gym bro that saw the movie and wanted to see if he could “turn me into Joker”. I feel like if DC woulda done something else with movie, ANYTHING else with that movie this woulda never happened to me. I love DC and actually have my own screen play I’d been writing for years in hopes of selling it to them, but now I just don’t know. Ik this isn’t a trauma space but I just needed someone to here my story😔
16:33
I LOVE YOUR UNPOPULAR OPINION OMG
I never thought someone would share this exact idea with me
I like the idea of Punchline, a chronically online clout chaser who chooses to be a joker henchman for fame. If the writers did her justice she could be an interesting character. They just need to lean away from the Harley Quinn replacement thing
Joker is supposed to be the opposite of the batman and pure chaos so he's best when he represents chaos
I think the overused argument is kinda dumb as he sells. It's the same problem with say Dragon Ball. Fans complain that Goku and Vegeta get to much screen time yet when other characters are focused on interest drops.
I like serious comics but let’s be honest Joker is better gruesome and funny not just a full on ass hat. Joker is supposed to be funny or have fun he does what he does for fun
Honestly, joker is my favourite dc villain, but there are so many other iconic villains to utilise that we should be treating joker like the villain that always comes back eventually, to the point where we actually get excited to see him again, instead of going "oh great... the joker...again?!?" Love the video mate keep up the great work :).
Thanks man! And thanks for your input! It's true though. Joker should be a "suprise". We expect him far too much now and he's lost his elemental shock value.
@tyrellmultimedia I couldn't agree more and you're very welcome. 👌👍😊
My hot take is that he has become a character reliant on needing other people. And so needs someone like Punchline who can fulfil his plans. Some should be absolutely crazy until the master plan has come to fruition and others should be done simply to mess with Batman.
Joker the best villain for me. He is no tragic villain just a good old fashion bad guy. I wish they gave him some superpower like a healing factor. Also wish to see punchline with him more.
Holy shit thank you. I can't believe how many people seem to think that Joker and Batman's relationship goes both ways. Joker can't live without Batman but Batman wouldn't spend a single solitary second mourning Joker even if he won't kill him himself. It's insane how many times I've seen people say "Batman needs Joker" or something similar
As for the One Bad Day idea, I think the lesson from it should always be that Joker is wrong. In Killing Joke, Joker put Gordon through the worst day of his life, in No Man's Land he killed Gordon's wife and neither time did Gordon stoop to Joker's level because he is a better man than Joker could ever hope to be. Joker killed Bruce's surrogate son and Batman still refused to kill him. The Dark Knight should be the only exception
I find these writers/directors are always trying to push the limits and they feel that with a character like the Joker, they need to go that extra mile cause he's "CRAZY"!!!! They're replacing good, solid, interesting, intriguing, storytelling with shock factor events. Hey, let's have the Joker kill puppies for no apparent reason! Maybe the think we're getting bored with his previous antics, but I don't believe that's what's causing the boredom. Write better overall stories and MAKE BETTER CONTENT when producing movies for fans.
The joker should go back to being a mystery, him having a Story and character, maybe one day he just chose to exist, we dont need him as a victim or anything he should go back to being terrifying, a force of pure evil and a schemer. Also Cameron Monoghan is my personal favourite performance alongside Mark Hamil, Heath Ledger and John DiMaggio. Me seeing Camerons my favourite definitely goes against the prev statement if him having no backstory but i believe he could act as all of Jokers personalities
I'd personally like to see the Joker's story end not with Batman but with Redhood. I don't like Batman breaking his code but I do believe the joker needs to go, and who better then Jason todd. I think it would be even more interesting if Jason actually convinced Barbara to go along with his plan. This would happen when Barbara has become batgirl a second time. By the end of this story joker is dead, Jason realised what Bruce means by no kill and Barbara realises that after all this time she's not worthy of the batgirl title and so she returns to oracle.
Honestly I don’t like the idea of knowing the Jokers origin. I like the thought of him just appearing out of nowhere as this force of nature.
I think part of why Batman can't let Joker die because there is a part of him that wants Joker to die. Anyone else dies and it's a tragedy, but if Joker dies then there's almost a relief and more than any other potential death. Joker's would be the most likely to trigger the slippery slope argument of "it always starts with one"
I think that Joker should alternate between being sadistic and just funny. One day he's "I'm gonna carve smiles onto all these orphans faces 😈" to "I'm gonna throw a pie in that guy's face 🤪"
My hot take is for joker to be killed off, for good, because I personally am tired of seeing him in everything, doesn’t stop appearing in games, gets two dumb solo movies, keep finding ways to keep him from dying in the comics, and making him so comedically psychopathing that no one else killing him yet is appaling. I feel like the only reason they keep him alive is because hes too popular and its too hard to come up with a new antagonist
For the first opinion, it looks like in the comics they turned Joker into Art The Clown! 😂🤣
BRING BACK PRANK !! 🗣️🗣️🗣️
Amazing video
Thanks for Using my Comment.
No problem!
@@tyrellmultimedia whenever I think of Injustice Superman, I think of one of the most terrible things he did killing was Green Arrow leaving his and Black Canary's child without a father
I agree Nicholson`s Joker was overrated. My problem wasn`t so much Nicholson being fatter than Joker in The Comics because even though Joker is usually pencil thin in The Comics, there have been stockier depictions of him (Ie in the "Joker" graphic novel, "Dark Knight Returns", "Gotham" and "Under The Red Hood") that worked IMHO, the issue I have with Burton`s take on the Batman and Joker relationship is to me the whole making Joker the killer of Batman`s parents makes the randomness and tragedy of their deaths less so in a sense because they were murdered by the literal embodiment of insanity in the DC Universe. Them being killed by a nobody adds to the tragedy! I also don`t like how so many depictions in recent years make Joker connected to Bruce Wayne before he becomes Batman in general, that sorta takes away from the mystique and wildcard nature of the character in my mind.I also think Nicholson`s not that great an actor or human being to begin with fer a multitude of reasons as well.
does anyone know the name of the illustrator who drew the designs at 4:23 , Ive seen these designs in colouring books and merchandise but i can't find who drew them. I think this person also illustrated some merchandise for Superman.
The joker is a mass murderering serial killer just like batman is a violent sociopath
Ra's Al Ghul or Hugo Strange should be Batman’s nemesis. Joker is overused and overrated as a threat. Batman has transcended fighting against mob villains now it should be with the ones I mentioned earlier Clayface, The enhanced assassin Philo Zeiss, Doctor Death, Bane, Sin Tzu, Mister Freeze, Scarecrow, Caraxes, Kobra Cult, Poison Ivy, Wrath, Kirk Langstrom, Iog Sotha, Calculator and Achilles Milo. All are outside of Philo Zeiss and Clayface genius polymathic intellectuals that would test Batman to his limits while some are also physical threats as well. I would also add the new villain Emperor Penguin and Failsafe Android. Batman needs to have cleaned up Gotham since he's highly intelligent, trained highly intelligent apprentices, and has billions of dollars for the city to have a revolving door of prison escapes. Let him Globetrot with the JL but actually get along with friends/family/allies for once.
Strange I can absolutely agree with especially in stuff like The Batman 04 where he makes a robot far beyond anything Batman can handle …Ra’s is a bit more debatable
@@billyboleson2830 Ra's Al Ghul was specifically created by Neil Adams and Dennis O'Neil to be Batman’s Moriarty that's why. He is what Batman would be if he killed people. I also think he needs redemption after being watered-down and ruined on Arrow CW by standing around with his arms behind his back talking like a fortune cookie to portray wisdom and intelligence. Why do you not like Ra’s?
My unpopular Joker opinions:
1) Death of the Family and Endgame are not too edgy in their portrayals of the Joker. His violence in both of those stories is supposed to be uncharacteristic of him, as several of the characters remark that he's meaner and more brutal than he ever has been in the past. And in both of those stories, he's being more gruesome with purpose. He cut his face off to make a statement. I think stories that followed those two misunderstood and thought brutal face-cutting Joker was inherently cool, when in reality it was the context and purpose of his brutality in these stories that made it interesting. After these two stories it was edgy for edge's sake, and that made it overblown and bland.
2) I like what Chip Zdarsky has done with him. We've been dealing with a different Batman and Joker since the New 52, and in spite of a few retcons since then, we still are. Both of them have different origin stories than the ones that came before the New 52. Having separated the old Joker from the New Joker, I like that Zdarsky has made this version's purpose bringing out the "Purest Batman" (Zur-Bats) in Bruce. It sort of plays off of how their relationship began in Zero Year, and follows what Joker was saying in Death of the Family. Reading the two runs back to back almost makes it seem like Snyder was foreshadowing Zdarsky's work.
Cool. It is interesting to see a hot take that isn't just Joker is overrated nonsense. No character becomes popular if they aren't in the least entertaining to the audience and written pretty well. People need to understand that just because your favourite villain is less popular than the main one doesn't mean the main one suddenly isn't good. If Scarecrow were to have the spotlight then it wouldn't take long before people call him overrated too.
@@Rengokuo4o6 I understand the Joker fatigue, really I do. I was there when we got Arkham Origins and it turned out to be a Joker Story that rhymed with Arkham City. I was there when the Joker appeared in Arkham Knight after we all thought he would get NOTHING MORE (though I don't hate his inclusion). I groaned when I saw that he was gonna be in The Batman II.
But I read Death of the Family and Endgame AFTER all of that, and it cured my Joker fatigue because I saw something actually interesting. And I see that in Zdarsky's work too.
We never get tired of Batman being in these stories, but we do get tired of Joker simply because he's often used as a cash grab or as hollow shock value. Unfortunately that means that his good appearances are waved away as well.
What he needs isn't to appear less often, he needs to appear with real purpose.
@thecreatornooj1328 I agree. But saying that they should give other villains the spotlight is very different from saying he is overrated. That to me is just stupid. If any other villain is given the spotlight or becomes popular, I think people would throw the overrated word too. This is because it isn't about getting frustrated with the purposeless use of his character, it is simply about hating because he is popular. I personally also think he is overused but to say he is overrated....No.
you gotta realize though that there are different types of iterations and what the universe in whole is supposed to be like The pattinson verse for example has been shown to be a noir and dark type of iteration while bale and btas was more on the side of action in whole so its really just what you find better but there is no need to hate on other versions and discredit it when it just is not your cup of tea
Not sure if you mean me or other people but I wasn't discrediting anyone. Just expressing opinions and different tastes.
I think joker is THE most overrated villian ever
Batman never killed Joker. He paralyzed him, and Joker killed himself.
Nah I think that neck snap was enough to kill him. Joker would have died eventually if he chose not to twist his neck further. Batman came into that encounter with the clear intention to kill him.
I also have a theory that Joker was already dead after Batman snapped his neck and he was just hallucinating when talking to him.
9:58 that's a dumb take cause you could say the same for most comic book characters, "doc ock is just an octopus man, he's nothing special" like i don't understand what this guy is trying to say
They're important because of their role in the story so judging joker or any character based off of their concept isn't a good way to dictate whether or not he is important
Well it's called unpopular opinions for a reason
@@tyrellmultimedia yeah but most opinions have logic behind them
@@micejoint132 Well if you talked to that particular person, perhaps they would have a logic to how they feel.
I’m pretty sure Batman didn’t kill Joker in Dark Knight Returns
The neck snap he delivered to the Joker was fatal. Even if Joker didn't end his own life, it would have ended eventually. Regardless, Batman went into that final battle with the intention of killing him.