An Unreasonably Late Response to Solar Sands
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- Опубликовано: 23 июн 2023
- language matters and shit
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I AM NOT PRESENTING AN ARGUMENT THAT SOLAR SANDS HIMSELF IS PROBLEMATIC, NOR AM I ADVOCATING “MINECRAFT VILLAGER RIGHTS”, I AM MERELY SAYING ONE SHOULD THINK ABOUT THE REAL-WORLD REPERCUSSIONS OF ENGAGING WITH DIALOGUE ABOUT INTELLIGENCE, CIVILIZATION, AND HUMANITY
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original video:
• Who Made the Minecraft...
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outro music:
@imnotindigo
Don't understand why people are so upset with this video. This was not an attack on solar sands, neither was it arguing for the human rights of a game entity. So many people in these comments seem to misudnerstand the message of this video. You simply ask people to think twice when talking about intelligence and humanity and used this short quote from Solar Sands a an example. And I agree, as small of a thing as it might seem, language like this is problematic, even when simply talking about game NPCs, because it is the same line of thought that was and still is used to justify genocide. Being aware of the way language shapes thought is essential and that includes the language used to describe game NPCs.
(also those cherry blossoms are such a cute choice of visals here :D)
yeah it's looking like i needed to triple clarify all of my points. thank you for outlining what i was saying so perfectly
@@pinarchivesthe reason I don't like this video is because it's steeped in cultural Marxist points. Which most people find abhorrent
@@jacobsanders2635 Cultural marxism is the new term for Judeo-Bolshevism, a conspiracy theory popularized by the national socialists of nazi germany. So much for thinking about the words we use
okay, but it's about a game, not real life events. Some words may not be appropriate when said to an actual human or some situation but other times they might be, and it's all natural and valid. Talking like this about a game brings no harm to anyone, excluding people who can't make the distinction between fiction and reality, but that's not a problem caused by someone who said those words.
@@mj-jl5nc basically the non economic (aka cultural) theories that marx proclaimed. Usually in a western setting you will find it in queer theory, critical theory (crt being a sub group of critical theory) colonial theory, transgender theory and others. Usually a person holds all these at once. To sum it up cultural Marxism is when you view particular aspects of the world in strictly oppressor victim binary with no ability for nuance.
Heres an example where too much overanalysing can ruin an argument
dude it's just a game with cubes
the villagers have an inferior intelligence because they have ai while the player is controlled by a person
are u serious rn?
i agree with this. i actually completely agree with this, but i was making a point about how solar sands's evidence for inferior intelligence has a history of ableism and racism.
I would have clarified i dont believe game entities are as intelligent as a real life human, but i figured since i was talking about a game and engaging with another person's argument for intelligence and humanity, that had no mention of a simple behavior code's difference to a human mind, that people would understand.
Yeah but his argument is that solar sands never said this and used bad logic
Finally, im tired of being discriminated against just because im a villager 😤🔥
I think overnalayzing and policing language about inanimate npc's in block games is more likely to push people away from your cause than help it in any way, especially when it's not a particularly good one.
Minecraft is a fantasy game with fantasy creatures and saying villagers aren't human isn't some sort of eugenic statement as your very forced comparison to colonialism implies. Non-human doesn't have to mean animal in this game, like in many fantasy worlds Minecraft has more than one humanoid species capable of intelligence and it's very clear that the villager species is different from that of the player, otherwise they would turn into the same kind of human zombies rather than specifically zombie villagers.
he's just some weirdo lmao
Is this serious?
i dont believe people are subtly manipulated by language in the way you think they are.
I hope this video is a joke.
Language is a really subtle and powerful thing, a lot of people underestimate it
im going to drink to forget how painfully dumb this video is : )
This is a HUGE stretch, its a video about villagers. Villagers in a game, about pixilated blocks, find something real to argue about man.
Games cultural products, they don't exist outside of our world. Hell, there are entire studies showing how they play a big part in our life, so i think it's valuable to use them in reflecting on our socio-economical landscape. At the end of a day, FNV is also only a game, so should we infatilize it?
Testificates.
@@4rumani testicles.
@@lollard68 It's insane to compare Minecraft to FNV, they are two entirely different games, it's ridiculous to compare the two in the first place. FNV is focused on stuff relating to politics, morality etc. Minecraft is a children's game focused on building and exploration, they are no where near comparable.
Bro we DO get your point but you can't see that your way of elaborating is objectively confusing as you mix real life issues and the game's own subjectivity. Furthermore, the title is clickbaity, because you could've named the video essay "How Minecraft's community handles its society system" or something better and ADD Solar Sand's comment on it, but alas, you took the easy way and went for "something this youtuber said is wrong, this is why". Unoriginal, unable to take criticism and, ultimately, lazy.
Great video! really unfortunate to see that many completely missed the entire point.
Lol i was a watcher of solar sans since he started making youtube videos and it's funny seeing how so many people didn't know he used to gawk at weird deviantart art and getting in trouble with them when they weren't happy with the unsolicited critique. He certainly has an... interesting background
SANDS
Not sans 😭
I just realized that you had 82 subs but your video is nicely edited and you have a good mic so I thought you had like 8k-60k subs atleast
He would have if the topics at hand were actually interesting or were coherent.
they
Hey, as an autistic person, I thought maybe I could share some of my own views on ableism and your video, and try to give more insight. I think I understood the conclusions you were trying to reach and going by that, I agree in theory, now... I have to be clear, you chose some of the most counter-intuitive examples to explain your point, pulled some extreme stretches, and were extremely and unnecessarily hostile towards Solar Sands (especially towards 6:00 forward).
Starting with the Minecraft-intelligence analogy: You could have chosen any other media to critique, Dune, Animal Farm, Ender's game... all those deal to some extent with ableism, and could be gold mines of dialogue, instead, you chose a 3-minute clip of a Minecraft essay, not even the main topic of such video, and treated that as a massive dog whistle, without giving it any benefit of the doubt. condensing all that into this argument (5:20) was so faulty it actually breaks your point, because you are taking a massive leap of logic to say that what Solar Sands said can affect the real world, if we change the wording a bit can you see how close this gets to a "games cause violence" argument? Is not that simple, and not that fast. I think you are trying to talk about real dog-whistling, but really if the bar you set is that low you might as well not talk because no wording can change the mind of someone that thinks 2+2=5, they will always twist your words to match their answer, so don't bother, and especially, don't censor other people for not bothering. Hope I made sense, and above all, respect for posting the video dude, actually putting the effort to explain your thoughts (even if i disagree) is much more respectable than living in your own bubble.
i dont disagree there are better media to critique, as im sure there are. i made this video because im on a minecraft kick and saw this video (a video i said i loved btw) and had a minor nitpick about that i feel is important.
i dont think i was hostile toward solar sands, i understand it’s a game and he meant nothing by it. however, we all buy into certain ideas, and i find the ideas which are foundational to what he said in passing were problematic.
i dont think this is the same as “games cause violence”, because i dont think this game is causing ableism, i think the way he talks about villagers’ inhumanity and how he proves it is a result of real world dialogue which i felt must be addressed.
i appreciate you actually engaging with my ideas.
ALSO ALSO i just realized your username and i was lowkey thinking about making a The Promised Neverland video at one point. read that whole manga in like 3 days.
i rewatched this video, and OP’s comment pretty much sums up all my thoughts on it.
i’m neurodivergent and trans myself and have had to deal with dehumanization myself many times and this… isn’t that.
i understand the intent of this video, but i feel like it was not at all the right way to portray this argument, and i’m concerned that this video will have the opposite effect on the intended audience. i appreciate you trying to speak out on stuff like this but i feel it could’ve been much more understandable if you chose different piece of media to critique.
Okay apparently minecraft racism is a thing
the focus was on real-life racism, but go off
@@pinarchives bruh please say that you are joking there is no way sombody is this hurt
@@iphoneiskacke8616 Do you think the thought patterns you form while gaming could spill over to real life?
Nobody is going to judge you for enslaving villagers in a cubes videogame. It's just a "be aware". That's it.
I dont understand how an innocuous comment that, when taken at face value, has 0 problems with it, results in a character takedown. Minecraft villagers categorically arent human. They also arent very smart. Just because in the past people described primitive societies and peoples as inhuman doesnt mean that there is a link to an inhuman, less intelligent, group in a video game. SS didnt say they were inhuman because they were less intelligent, nor did he imply that. It was your interpretation only. Looking into things and seeing connections where there are none shouldnt be enough to decry “ablism” or any other isms
This reminds me of a situation I had back in highschool: We were tasked to describe some prehistoric artifacts in groups. I had a handle or club and used "primitive" to describe it. I was oblivious to its connotation so I was surprised when the teacher intervened and elaborated on the implications of using "primitive". How it is disrespectful to these ancient people as well as their intelligence but most importantly: their humanity.
Basically, I think that solar sands was oblivious like me. An oversight or something. Which is odd because his videos are very thoroughly scripted.
To give him some slack though: it is his second more serious video-essay (after the squidward one). Considering that this is his most "controversial" thing he had said makes me think that he really didnt know the implications of that word. All his other videos are very well scrutinized.
Basically: he's at least aware about his presence.
Just my thoughts man.
Also to some people: Its just words right? Why cant we use "n*****" or other slurs? If "primitive" is the line then why not say anything without any consequences? /s
Primitive (adjective): relating to, denoting, or preserving the character of an early stage in the evolutionary or historical development of something.
I’m sorry, what about this is offensive again? It sounds like your teacher was a betamale cuck, and you took his “lesson” a little too earnestly. If we can’t call literal cavemen “primitive”, then we might as well sew our mouths shut, because nothing’s safe anymore.
First I thought this video was actually serious lmao
he said villagers are not human because Steve, canonically a human, looks drastically different than the villagers. i think it's a fair assumption that they're different species.
I assume they're the offspring of humans who mated with Squidward
"He referred to the non-humans as non-human!"
We have reached a new level of "words hurt muh feelings ;("
Dude, solar sands wasn't making a political statement... he was saying the villagers were "inferior" cause not only can they not build or fight, they can't even make a sustaining village dude. It's a statement on a game AI and nothing to due with natives.
Christ.
I think that by saying villagers are not human Solar Sands simply meant that they’re just a different species. Which is clearly the case as there is lots of in-game evidence of that, e.g. existence of both regular zombies and zombie villagers, differences in player and villager entity models etc.
Also, I don’t think that “primitive” is something negative, it’s just a fancier way of saying “simple”, a synonym for “not complex” and in certain cases for “close to nature”.
My issue with this video is that it honestly feels like you're getting offended on someone other people's behalf. I am disabled, and I've had to deal with people doing that my whole life even when I didn't find issue with it.
This is by far one of the most... frustrating things I've seen on RUclips in awhile, at least for me. And I've seen a lot.
i do not intend to speak over anyone. i have in the past reached out to disabled and neurodivergent creators for a few words on my videos and have been very unsuccessful. i figured it 3 be fruitful this time either.
what exactly was frustrating about my video?
i stand by my video though. for instance, im trans. i say that to say that if blaire white doesnt have an issue with people making fun of enbies or “gross trans women” that doesn’t mean that it isn’t wrong. and if noone said anything about what she allows and says i’d be ok with a cis creator pointing out why it’s wrong.
edit: change “3” to “wouldnt”. idk why it did that
Good video, das a good point!
I agree with your main points: The words we use are important, and we should be careful of how we use them, especially how we use them to describe others, and using intelligence as a measure of humanity is unjust. (It's also usually inaccurate). However, I must disagree with the original premise for your video.
I don't think that he made the statement as a form of meta-irony, and I certainly don't think that it was some kind of dog whistle. The only political message there is the one you gave it, and I think the connection between his words and words used in the past (and present) is tangential at best.
It is most likely not the case that Solar Sands is a bigot or someone who views people with mental disabilities as inferior, nor is there sufficient evidence in his video, twitter, or anywhere else (that I know of) to draw that conclusion. To say that he is in favour of the use of racial slurs because they were included in content he enjoyed, is just as silly as saying that you must like cyanide if you enjoy apples. It is possible to enjoy something, even if it has parts you don't like.
Again, I agree with the main points you made, I'm just not sure why you used that video in particular as the spark for yours, as it's subject is completely unrelated to the topics you discuss, and there are far better examples out there.
i said “a take reminiscent of moistcritikals, a take somewhat in favor of racial slurs”. by saying that i meant that moistcritikals take is somewhat in favor of slurs and solar sands’s take is reminiscent of moistcritikal’s take.
i have no ill will toward solar sands and dont believe he is a bigot.
@@pinarchives ok, I see what you mean there.
I like the video and don't understand the other comments, you were still respectful of Solar Sands and even though you do seem to be a political channel, I don't really see this video as that. I have often questioned how we treat villagers with a colonial attitude and you even admit to it yourself. If talking about the term "inferior intelligence" is political, I fear for this world. My point is: good video, it's funny how polarised the comments are with the likes, I felt the need to balance it out. Great job on the editing!
holy shit someone actually understood what i was saying. thank you for your kind words, friend.
Cause villagers are not real people, and I assure you that a 10 year old boy is not thinking about colonialism when making a farm and trading with them.
Villagers are not intelligent cause they are a computer program. You may think of them as "living" cause that's a way of immersion into a game, but they are not real, and no grown up living person should think of them as such.
Comparing them however to a real life people is politicising it. I do not wish to be reduced to a bunch of pixels in a video game in any way.
That's a fair point too, it's not like Mojang intended that. Pinarchives is definitely overcomplicating it but someone is bound to do that when the source material is so simple and open to interpretation, much like how MatPat makes crazy lore concepts with what little we are given. Does a 10-year-old try to inject science, philosophy, politics, and whatnot into and from Minecraft? No. Does it need to be done? No. But some people enjoy doing such and it's not like Pinarchives thinks Minecraft and Solar Sands are teaching us to like slavery, he just simply likes making videos about how he interprets things. He just happens to have a sociological and political mindset when looking at things.
I will back out of my claim of this not being political though since it is inherently a sociological subject from a political RUclipsr. A lot of people aren't comfortable with political or social discussion and I get that. I was kinda surprised to find something like this myself on RUclips but I personally happen to vibe with it.
aint no way bro brought real life politics into somebody talking about minecraft villagers
This is an interesting video, I like how you made your presentation of your ideas was made concisely and entertaining
i dont fully agree with this video but wow do some people really miss the point lol
I think taking real life politics into a game which has nothing to do with real life politics is the issue here.
I'll start by saying that Minecraft has no political commentary as a game on its own. In fact, the devs said that in vanilla there shouldn't be any real life political or gender content. Solar Sands did not make any point that is strictly comparing this game to any real world events (at least I don't remember), taking this games setting and only focusing on that: a fantasy.
You however did that, comparing villagers to indigenous people and disabled. It's not the same thing, cause talking about made up world in which no real person is getting hurt, should not be on the same level as a conversation involving holocaust. People who want to play a game about blocks and immerse themselves in it, as well as talk about it artistic concepts and their interpretation of it, should not be forced to silence themselves cause it "would be controversial irl". If you want to be outraged about injustice, don't bring it into someone's safe space and fantasy. Focus on real life problems.
To the lesser issues that you mentioned, and the "morality" of what he said:
Villagers are not the same as the player. I'd argue zombies have more to do with players than villagers (they look more similar and zombie villagers are a thing). Therefore, if we consider players as humans, cause we play as them (and I hope we're all humans), villagers are not a human race. BUT that does not mean they don't have their own intelligence, with that I can agree. He made a point that he himself finds them less intelligent, and I can get that some people might find that building their houses near a 50m cliff and then falling off of it isn't really intelligent.
Playstyles differ, and the beautiful thing about Minecraft is that you can do whatever the hell you want and you don't actually need to enslave poor villagers. You can upgrade their home, you can leave them alone, save them from a raid or just kill all of them yourself and it doesn't mean that you're a horrible person that hates minorities.
It's a game and if you agree that games don't make people violent school shooters, you should also agree that calling a bunch of pixels unintelligent is not a hatecrime.
thank you for such a good wording of what I think, there's not much to add
honestly, it's ridiculous how some people willingly refuse to separate reality and fantasy when talking about morality and politics. apparently western people have no more real life problems to solve, so their level of political discussion is arguing whether minecraft villagers are less intelligent than player and inferior. yes, they are - we know it as a game rule and it needs no discussion - but that doesn't matter. and talking shit about them not only has no impact on the real world, it doesn't even impact the fantasy game world in the case of minecraft. but protecting the (non-applicable by definition) human rights of the fantasy creatures is much easier than helping the homeless people, who *actually* suffer from bad actions and language, who are *real* people and indeed need physical, moral and political support. altho i cannot argue that bringing politics into videogame essays is much more fun, obviously
Thank you. Keep reality and fiction separate for God's sake.
i understand what you mean, except i didn't make a 1 to 1 comparison of villagers to indigenous and disabled people, instead i mentioned how his discourse on them is much the same as what we've heard for hundreds (if not thousands) of years about indigenous and disabled people, and how in both instances being "primitive" or "unintelligent" meant not-human.
as for people "silencing themselves", i never once argued in favor of silencing oneself. instead, if you had listened, i said he probably SHOULDNT have to apologize, and my call-to-action was essentially that we should think about the real-world implications of what we say.
my third point: REALWORLD implications of a GAME. multiple times i said it's just a game, i even said that i enslave villagers myself. instead i think we should focus on how we SPEAK about things, especially on a youtube video with millions of views, because although im sure solar sands meant no offense by anything he said, the language is a bit problematic. for instance, if i made a video about how zombies are trans, and outlined how they seek the player out to assault them as trans people do, that would be transphobic. this is not a concrete comparison, i understand that, but my point still stands: despite it being just a game, a game i engage with much the same way everyone else does, the language we use to talk about it matters.
"real-life" politics are in everyone's speech because our systems make everything political. i merely pointed out how his "evidence" for inferiority and inhumanity has a history of ableism and racism.
also, i at no point mentioned the holocaust, there are however people in these comments who are blatantly antisemitic
@@pinarchives and guess who brought politics into everything we say and do.
No, calling something that's not human unintelligent and not human is not a problem. It's not a personal attack on anyone, and words like these don't have any political meaning unless you MAKE them political or call a living person that. You did that by showing antisemitic leaflets and comparing the same words he said as if said to a real person.
As a neurodivergent person myself I've always payed really close attention to words, and they're not a problem. The problem is people who want to give them a different meaning based on their own biases and not knowing the base definition, they do it out of their own insecurities.
If someone's speaking about a non living item (which a game is) it has NO real life implications cause its not real. It's a game.
Calling a chair stupid cause you hit yourself in the elbow is not the same as calling living person who did nothing wrong stupid. There's a line, and if someone doesn't get that, it's their personal problem, not a person who said those words.
You're just making the same point that "video games make people violent" and that's not true.
@@sadpianist5846 if i said a chair was inhuman and stupid BECAUSE it's primitive then it'd still be anti-indigenous, and my focus on its lacking intelligence being connected to its inhumanity is ableist.
pretty sure solar sands revealed his face in his monumentality video btw
damn probably shoulda looked more into it. luckily i made my point with enough nuance and shit
They have large noses, they sell you stuff at stupidly high prices and they need you to do all the difficult work for them
I wonder who they might be?
8 likes? should i take any of the disagreement in these comments seriously? come get your guy, guys^
What?
@@pinarchivesis this some sort of failed ratio comeback?
They are harmless, though. They don't do war crimes or break 28 UN security council clauses. Perhaps in a future update?
They are irish!
I feel bad for you. You made a bad take video and are subsequently getting alot of negative comments about you, that you seem to not be able to disassociate with. People are going to get upset and disagree with you dont take it too personal. Just try to move on and think about why people disagree with you so that you can better articulate your own reasonings.
engaging with comments means im taking it personally?
@@pinarchives no it just seemed so from my point of view. But if you say you arent than good for you
damn y'all bozos in the comments need to like, watch the video or something idk
Here at 2,295 views.
this honestly seems like such a nothingburger
W
0:45 I think this is a bit of a stretch since as far as I can remember he never explicitly talks about the Endermen but overall thanks for giving me something to think about
it is a bit of a stretch i agree, but i figured it was purposeful since most of what he says lines up with what he shows on screen
Hey there cool video ENBY!! I love your points and succinctness (I am an anarchist too lol), but maybe you should've used something other than a Solar Sands Minecraft video to discuss these topics? It's pretty clear most people missed the point and you're not really gonna attract the audience you're looking for like this... Most people coming here are apolitical folks who couldn't give a rat's ass about indigenous struggles or our inherent colonialist biases in what constitutes civilization, so what they see is some rando nitpicking a sentence their favorite youtuber said then going "MINECRAFT RACIST!!1!!???"
You just seem like a smart fellow and I think you have bigger fish to fry
Talk about racism in skyrim and compare it to the real world and you have a good video
Solar Sands isn't talking about the in-universe villagers in this context, he's speaking about the feeling that he has metatextually - those are two very different things
i was waiting for this comment because i really think it’s my video’s most valid criticism.
but again, he used “primitive settlements” as proof for lacking intelligence and inhumanity so my point still stands.
if he instead focused on the basic a.i. and the minimal existence of anything with the same motivations as the character than i’d agree. i should have clarified this in the video because it might have cleared some things up, but i really thought this would be my least viewed video and only wanted to make a quick point.
I think it's rather clear the Villagers are a separate species from the main character and probably didn't build most of the abandoned structures.
Then again you're trying to paint someone as problematic over an opinion on a fictional mob of creatures in a videogame for 8-year olds
cuck
no one actually thinks like this, this video is clearly parody/satire yall lmao
people like you are so silly
🤡
this is too far fetched
cringe
it’s really not that deep 😭
shoo
Although I understand that you wanted to talk about the importance of language when referring to other people and how that can be dehumanising, being the subject of where this language was used Minecraft... makes things really silly 😂
Edit: I would also like to add that in a game where species are found, using the term 'human' is reaally tricky. We are talking about classifications of sentient beings. Maybe the villagers ARE a different classification.
Alsooo 'in favour of racial slurs', I believe is not the case here in particular, and I do agree with what Solar Sands said about idubbbz. Some of those content cops were deserved, those creators needed to get off their clouds.
Me when I link a villager breeder to a campfire