How Much Lift Can a Stock Vortec Really Take? Plus .500 Lift Cheaply (Stock Guides)
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- Опубликовано: 29 апр 2023
- How much lift can Vortec's truly take without machining? This video has lots of info if you're wanting to set up your Vortec heads on a low budget using stock retainers and valves.
This video is a guide, you must check your heads for proper clearance!
"Drop in" Springs (check specs to insure fitment) ID Min .870 - OD 1.240 to 1.265 - Installed height
1.700" (up to 1.750 if you use offset keepers) * Rocker arms clearance needs to be checked*
Heres a Few options
-Comp cams 980-16 or 981-16
-Howards 98214
-Elgin 943XK
Felpro valve seals : SS72861 www.amazon.com/Fel-Pro-SS7286...
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Finally a simple to understand explanation of these heads and fixes. Thank you.😊
Thank you Gary, I get so many messages and emails about confusing info on these heads. I am hoping this video helps clear things up for guys
Well well well...I must admit I didn't know that the factory didn't bottom out the seals. I also never considered 981 springs without the damper, well now. And to top off the list I NEVER considered machining the factory retainers by say .030...that alters the retainer to seal crash height, but not the valve tip height...both good and simple. You just revealed some info....NOBODY talks about....keep knocking it out the park!!!!
Appreciate the positive feedback. Thank you, Mike!
Majority of this information has been around for many years I think where it gets confusing for people is all the different numbers.
Anyways that was a neat little trick to show with seating the factory seals for alil more clearance. Thanks for sharing Pat.
Yeah exactly, one article days, .420, one says .450 and another .460. All these different numbers with no explanation for guys. Hopefully it will help clear things up
That was amazing!! Thank you for all this great information!!
Again another great informative video! Take care
I definitely see where I went wrong on my build with my 355 VORTEC sb. After snapping rockers off, wiping out two cams I see that I never took into consideration the valve seal clearance this video has got me totally on point to understand what it takes to make my combination work. Great post and awesome trick on retainer 👍🏾
Sorry to hear the issues you have had, how much lift were you running?
@@cuttersperformance 507 lift with 1.5 rockers and beehive springs and screw in studs
I’ve made the same mistake …. There’s a lot of math going into building engines!!! And I’ve learned the hard way 😂😂😂😂 now I’m doing better and get better … I will learn anything and everything from smarter fellas 🎉😁👍👍🏆
Change the rockers to rollers
Pat is in the House......great video ....I really enjoy the quick talking and straight to the point.....
Thanks man! I was trying my best to keep the video around the 15 min mark haha
This is very good information. 👍 This is exactly what I did with my tbi 193 heads in my Camaro to run .480 lift hyd. roller. Springs, + .050 retainers, .060 spring washers. I had to grind the self aligning spurs on a set of Comp roller tips about .020 or so. Only thing I didn't do was check that the guides were seated all the way.
Thank you so much for this info. Appreciate the videos man.
Hi, Man am I glad I subscribe to this channel! Great job and information we really need!! Thanks alot Man,great stuff!!👍👍👍👍
Glad to see a spring class .probly the most misunderstood subject about building motors.
Great information!
I used a Comp Cams 292 H back in 1988 .501 lift in a stock head 79 z28 .. no issue BUT I knew guys that said I should refrain from that much lift.
Great explanation and info.
Good video and helpful information
I did about same and used stock vin R roller cam in my work truck 1.y rockers stock engine works great
Really great information! I really enjoy your in-depth vids about make budget stuff work better. Most of us are on a budget and this content is great. I had a question though could you also achieve more lift if a guy wanted to spend a little money on aftermarket roller rockers with a 1.6 ratio? I know jumping from a 1.5 to 1.6 nets you more lift, there an equation to find your new lift(I can't recall it off the top of my head). Thanks again for taking the time to do this stuff.
Take your current lift (say .500) Divide that by stock ratio of 1.5 to find your lobe lift (.500 ÷ 1.5 = .333). Now take your lobe lift and multiply that by your new ratio of 1.6. (.333 x 1.6 = .533) So now your lift is .533 with the 1.6 rocker arms, plus you gain a few degrees of duration.
Great video 👍🏻🇦🇺
I'm running a 488-510 roller cam with 550 lift springs 2500 stall on Vortec 062 heads runs great
im tempted to try umbrella seals on my vortec heads. have always liked them for the ability to allow more oil into the guide. i dont mind adding more oil every now and then.
Yeah, I've used them before with no issues on lower lift cams with stock guides
@@cuttersperformance cant find any umbrella seals for a .560 guide. oh well.
Dude amazing video. Love ur content. Will the these springs along with all ur tips and tricks work on gen 2 LT1 heads as well?
Thank you, I appreciate the positive feedback. These tips apply to most 87+ sbc heads. The checks apply to any head
Yep, the good old "ghetto grind" on the retainers and i use a $40 set of "Z28" springs with the inner damper removed. Cheap and Easy!
If you have access to a valve grinder, it's more of a "lower middle class grind" 😅
Thank you for your knowledge and videos USA 🇺🇸 USA 🇺🇸
What is your opinion on the Lt4 hot cam and what springs do you recommend for that cam?
Great info but too late, I’ve already set up my aluminum heads per your video 😊
Awesome video! Helped me out a lot. I just want to confirm, it’s pretty much the same way with flat tapped and hydraulic roller? I’m building an L31 350 and wanted to make sure I’m in the clear. I also need cam recommendations, as I can only find mostly flat tappets
The springs in the video can be used for flat tappet hydraulics or mild hydraulic roller cams under .500 lift. I have some more vortec builds/dyno results coming up that might help you with a cam choice
When you drill out the pushrods holes to 1/2”, you don’t go all the way down alongside the port do you? Just the actual round opening, then stop before you drill alongside the port?
Do you have any pictures?
My heads must of been cut down or something because I bought my set from right from a 602 engine and had them redone at machine shop with Ls1/ls6 springs, comp 787 retainers, 648 keepers and fel pro 72861 seals and had retainer to seal clearance of .611 lol! Spring install height 1.770 spring closed 115.lbs and at .500 300.lbs! Machine shop said good to over 6,500 rpm no problem with flat tappet!
Im assuming that's .611 without clearance, so you're good for .550 with .560 lift? They are probably stock guides if thats the case. Before covid hit, I was putting together beehive kits that allowed .580 lift on a stock vortec head with special retainers. But even the 787s allow for more lift than the stock retainers, especially with the taller installed height. Beehives are my first choice for vortec builds 👌
Personally, I would just cut 060 from the guide, also I would consider using a +100 valve. Spring seat cutters and seal cutters are cheaper than a valve grinder if you don't have one. The tip on the felpro seals is great I've been using the o-ring type seal
Theres certainly more that one way to skin a cat but a valve grinder isnt actually needed. Years back, I did it with a bench grind and a flat file. Just took my time. $20 valve seals, $75 springs, and your good for .500 lift with a flat tappet cam
@@cuttersperformance what lift do these heads stop making power ??
What is your opinion on the Jegs Vortech heads
I’m going to replace my valves, do you know if anywhere makes a bit taller valve stem to i could use the off set keepers?
Great video, thank you for putting this out. Sorry for the dumb question: So the Fel-Pro seals are simply shorter than the stock ones, correct?
Slightly shorter
@@cuttersperformance Thank you!
Will the push in rocker studs try to pull out with .480 lift ?
I like the idea using a valve grinder to cut down a retainer. Do you have a better view showing what you do or use to hold the retainer on the valve? Are you using a stop to hold the valve-retainer in place so it dose not move and what is it? Thanks for sharing your knowledge and simple tips, Ron M
Using an old scrap valve, you simply flip the keepers and install the retainer upside down on the valve tip. Grind away the valve tip until your grinding the retainer. You can tig weld the keepers on the valve stem to stop them from falling off (or even a drop of super glue) Use the dial on the grinder to watch how much your taking off and verify with with a caliper. Works like a charm 👌
Thanks for the reply and info. What is the block used for that I see on the steam grinding fixture
when you grind the retainer?
@Ronald Miller its a scrap valve, with the keepers flipped and the retainer installed upside down
Awsome info. Now comes my question of pushrods when you put 062 heads on a gen 1 block with a L79 cam..😮😮
Lol
Push rod length needs to be check for every application but it will be close to the factory 7.800 inches (2pc block with flat tappat cam)
Yes, you can do it, a buddy put 40k miles on a smog 350 with the l79 and vortecs
@PISS-CUTTER Performance now, if ya wouldn't mind sending me some Tim Hortons. South Carolina isn't as close to the Great White North as my old home of Buffalo NY... be well bud..
@@kiesha104 haha Gotta love the Hortons
Great video
So I would love to know what the spring pressures would be with all the hacks mentioned, we have a rule for tech to check spring pressure with lsm guage at.450 lift, and our max pressure is 105 seat, and 260lb open. How far off would I be ?
Also we can only use stock seals for.062 heads
I sanded about .030 on the bottom of the keepers and it worked fine with a .490 lift
I'm using 416 HO HEADS FROM A 305 ON A 350 ,RUNS AMAZING
What offset keepers were used
@PISS-CUTTER performance
I’m dointh this this week as I’m putting a isky mega 280 485 “ lift cam. Was going to use the Howard’s valve spring kit for the spring upgrade. But I just purchased a set of 1.6 steel roller tip type rockers as I added them
Onto the 602 stock cam to try and wake it up. I’m running this engine on 3/8 asphalt circle track
I’d really like to use them the 1.6 rocker arms on/with the new isky 485/485 cam Which would be around 515-517 lift. I don’t wanna spend the $$ again on 1.5 ones if I don’t have to. Piss cutter what are your thoughts ?? And lately if the Howard’s springs only good for 500” lift what affordable option can go with to handle the 517-520 max lift ??? Thanks for excellent info brother !! 👍🏻💪🏻
Are you swapping out your pressed in rocker studs because if not then that affects your rocker choice ?
What is the coil bind height on your Howards springs ?
Does this tech cross over to the 4.3 Vortec also?? I have multiple 4.3 & 5.7 Vortec engines....
DId vortecs come with rotating exhaust retainers? I know early chevy heads did.
They do not
Well i c i cant get a response from u on "NONE" of my questions/comments so this well b my comment and last video i watch of urs !! 💯
I still wish u best buddy, but this is the 2nd time i have commented and asked u a question about these vortec hesds with no response. And i c u have no problem responding to everyone else questions... 🤔
Take care buddy 🤙
I try hard to get to all the comments but some I miss some man, I get many every day. I also dont always get notified for every comment, especially if it's a reply to someone else's comment. Sorry about that
Whats your question?
I just searched back, I responded to your comment a month ago and on another video. Maybe you missed my response about your piston rings?
Thanks and dammit man, the cam I am gonna use is .550/.565 hydraulic roller, guess I am getting the guides cut down.
Yeah, guides cut, and probably pushrod guide plates would be a good idea
@@cuttersperformance I already have self aligning full rollers and screw in studs with no nut to retain the guide plate already installed.
Have you done or have any info on adding 1.6 rockers on a stock lift L31. Appr. .414 .428 stock - .442 I /.467 E
It can be done but as seen in the video make sure your valve seals are fully seated or they will probably hit
Unsure of Vortecs but Fuellies are 1.72 installed heaght and around 72lb on the seat. So no good for performance cams. On those I have run springs up to 140lb seat pressure. With proper outers and flat wound dampers. You MUST use screw in studs. IF you turn 6000rpm that is an essential. You can cut the spring pockets about .050 max and use plus 050 retainers. Simple guide cutter for PC seals you can shorten the guides a little also.
Look at the factory performance cams, from the 60s.
With the bee hive I can run an488 288 cam no prob
Hotrodding baby!!!
I'm having a few issues. I'm looking to run comp cams 787-16 with their 26906-16 springs with 0.030 offset keepers and I can't figure out my clearance. It should be around .550 right?
Check out my LS6 spring on vortec video to check clearance easily at home
I don’t know if you will know but I have those dna heads and I don’t know if I can use them on my stock engine. Any information would be greatly appreciated
The DNA aluminum heads can be used as a replacement head. You may have to use a smaller 1205 intake gasket to get a stock intake to seal on it, though. Longer pushrods may be needed as well
Have you ever seen or used the promaxx vortec heads?
I have not used the promaxx heads. I may have to try and get a set as ive been asked about them a few times now
I wanna run a comp 262h cam with vortec heads do you think the springs will be maxed out so head they will wear out and break prematurely
Id probably go to a 981-16 spring. Just follow the video and make sure your valve seals are seated all the way.
@piss-cutterperformance I have springs off a 5.3 laying around will will installing them at 1750 instead of 1800 hurt longevity
THIS IS ALL GOOD INFO THANK U BUT TELL ME WHY HAVE I WASTED (2) CAM'S IN A ROW WIPED THEM OUT NEARLY INSTANTLY (3) LOBES BOTH TIMES 🤔 MABY (4) NO DIRVING TIME AT ALL ALL HAPPENED WHILE
GOING THROUGH LASH ADJUSTMENT AT IDLE
Sorry to hear about your troubles, I have a few questions. What cam/lifters were you using?
What valve springs/ rocker arms?
Did you follow a cam break in procedure during the first fire up? Lifters should be pre adjusted prior to the first fire up, that way the rpm can be brought up and kept there for 15 to 20 mins for break in.
Aren't the inner springs there in case the spring breaks that spring keeps the retainer lock in place so the valve does not fall into the cylinder?
Thats a dual valve springs your thinking of. The purpose of the damper is to help prevent spring surge but with the large vortec guide its causes more issues that it helps
@@cuttersperformance Ah OK it's funny how we assume these things. Thank you for the info.
Man iam running ls1 beehives and and the offset keepers with retainers from comp cams. I also had the guilds cut and iam using a blue seal that the machine shop gave me but i think they are simular to the felpro. its been fine but iv been using the factory vortec rockers. my cam was a new old stock 12-268-14 which is .480 intake and .480 exhaust. i guess i got room to grow!!! iam super curious if instead of risking another cam break-in i might just increase the rocker arm ratio.
Youll have tons or clearance man, i usually dont cut the guides until .550+ lift. Beehives are usually my choice on most builds but for a flat tappet a single reg spring works well. You could certainly add a 1.6 rocker arm to increase lift but make sure you have rocker arm to retainer/keeper clearance.
I agree with the cam/lifter epidemic I would agree on 1.6 rockers.
Just be careful on your selection with those also being self aligning as Pat stated they can be tricky with retainer/keeper clearance as well.
@@BDauto86 just add guide plates and forget the self align rocker go roller tip 1.6 and call it a day for ur build
@B&D Auto I’m about to use 1.6 steel roller tips all the rule allows me to use. But will guide plates go on these heads with the press in studs? What all is necessary to adding guide plates will different push rods be needed ?? Just wanna be clear I appreciate ya brother
@@baims8367 not sure I ran a 7/16th screw in studs with guide plates to get rid of the self align I got the studs with the hex shank on it that’s why I had to cut the bosses down to make up for height difference
Following this to a T! Any tricks on installing the 72861 Felpro valve seals? I'm getting them on, but it seems like I'm having to beat on them pretty hard to get them all the way down.
They should tap on firmly, and you'll hear a pitch change when they are seated
Thanks! Is there a chance that the guide boss on my 906's are of a different diameter? I'm reading that the 72861 seals are 0.545" and the guide bosses on the 906's are 0.560". @@cuttersperformance
Roger that, thank you. I'm reading that the ID of the seals are .545 while the OD of the boss is .560. Anything to worry about there? @@cuttersperformance
@@michaelhancock1603 i use them on any stock guide build I do
Excellence, thank you again!@@cuttersperformance
Hey Pat ive got a question. Ive got two sets of these springs. Comp cam 26906-16 and retainers are 787-16 of course. The cam will be a summit stage 2 almost identical to lt4. CAN I USE THOSE SPRINGS.. MAX LIFT IS .520 IVE ive ordered .30 offset keepers to get that 1.8 installed heiggt. If i cant use those springs let me know. It is roller cam
I used the Summit Equivalent to the 26906 springs with the Lt4 hotcam, no signs of any valve float at 6500+ rpm on the dyno. When the 26906 is installed at 1.780" it is good for .540 lift.
@@cuttersperformance thank you brother. There almost identical in pressures etc etc and your rt woth factory locks not quite 1.8. Who sells +030 locks.
@timmygun1 competition products has them
@cuttersperformance ordered 3 sets. Thanks man. I'm gonna build a marine sb. I need to cut the spring and gudes down. You got those part numbers for the cutters and dowel. Thanks Pat. I promise I won't bug you anymore. But since we met. I'm on my 7th vortec block. You are awesome.
I'm trying to run vortec heads I have 525 lift and I need 300lb springs and summit racing in having trouble helping me . Can you help
ruclips.net/video/UZosxGQyGMs/видео.html
I was wanting to break in summit 1103 cam int 444/466 ext on stock vortec springs and 7.794 stock push rods then run it for about 1k miles or so. Is that alright? The block and heads only has 118k.
Shouldn't be any issue as long as the valve seals are fully seated like shown in the video.
Can I run zz4 cam with the 981 spring Cut down retainer 30 thou offset keppeer an seal thanks
@@malcolmburton9481 the 981 springs are technically only good for .490 lift
With that set up could you run a zz4 cam thanks
The 981 springs (or similar) can technically only handle upwards of .500 lift. I will be doing a ZZ4 hot cam vortec build, so I will post a video on what spring setup im using
Thaks
What cam would you recommend with 1.6 rockers ?
Any cam. Doesn’t make a difference. Just know 1.6 increases the lift as opposed to a 1.52. The fulcrum point increases therefore increases valve opening
Is you id dimension without damper?
Yes. And youll find that the company's advertise the ID measurements without the damper aswell
I ran the 980-16 with the dampers and they don’t fit over the guide properly and bind, ended up bending the pushrods, .488 max lift
Yeah, it's very important to remove the dampers. Good thing you figured it out
@@cuttersperformance I learned this from your video but I didn’t listen and screwed myself…. Love your content, I’ve completely assembled my vortec on your advice! RHS heads so some of the special work was already done!
More importantly, at what lift are these heads designed to operate in. Why lift to .600+ if the heads flow the greatest efficiency at .500!
Because of a thing called "area under the curve" , if your peak flow is at .500 it would be a waste not to do everything you can to lift past that
The cutting tool for cutting down the spring pocket isnt that expensive from Goodson and kan be used with a hand held drill och stand drill.
There are very affordable beehive sorings from LS engines for instance. Keepers from Melling are also pretty affordable.
But many cheap things get expensive when added up 😅
You would only use a spring seat cutter if you need more installed height which is not really what this video is about
No issues? lol i've seen em push rocker studs out with a .460 lift cam
I tell guys over 300lbs over the nose you should have screw in studs. They are never a bad idea but ive never seen them pull with springs weaker than that unless theres not enough clearance to the retainer and they are smashing the retainer into the seal/guide.
With pressed in rocker arm studs I would not go over 450 lift.
Its more rpm/spring pressure with press in studs. Generally less than 300 lbs over the nose and under 6k rpm, the press-in studs are fine. But going screw in studs is never a bad idea for any situation
I’m currently out the game cause my heads had to come off to replace the press on studs. Wish my engine guy made a bigger point with that. Last week 4 studs pulled out and I lost 4 lifters and 4 rockers.
@kyff232 o dang sorry to hear that man! How much spring pressure were you running?
@@cuttersperformance not quite sure to be completely honest. They’re double valve springs with dampeners so I’m assuming 350 atleast open. Upgraded springs for a 510/515 cam. Everything was fine until 5500-6000 open run Definitely needed screw on studs. Now I’ve got new rockers and lifters lol .
@kyff232 o jeez yeah, over 300 lbs its a real coin flip once you bring the rpm up. Alot of guys dont believe me but ive seen it many of times
The l31 isn't a great head.
As far as a production head they are quite good
OH THAT'S VORTEC HEADS ON AN OLD SCHOOL 4 BOLT MAIN 2 PIECE REAR SEAL BLOCK
AND NOT A HIGH LIFT CAM NOT STOCK BUT NOT RADICAL IN ANY CASE I ONLY BUILD
CHEVY MOTORS AND HAV DUN SO FOR OVER 50 YEARS AND THIS IS A FIRST 4 ME
WITH PLENTY OF ASSEMBLY LUBE ALONG WITH GRAPHITE IN MY CAM LUBE MIX I'M PISSED HERE NICE HEADS BUT ☝️ W T F O
A spring shim. He said valve shim.
What’s the number for the keepers I watched the whole video u didn’t mention the part number
.030 offset keeper part number is at 10:30 mark in the video .
VTO part# 4134