@@Saa42808 it is false assumption. Courage can have many forms in different fields. TRUE COURAGE IS SAYING TRUTH When needed. IT IS FIght for truth when needed.
One hundred percent! You completely get lost in thought here, not knowing how many hours you spent listening/watching because you are so amazed and intellectually nourished
Why i love your channel is because i get so many exciting modern researched books on Islam by young Erudite modern Muslim scholars who either scientifically updates past scholarly works of those genius past scholars or throw more light on their writings which authenticated the truth of Islam as the final religion sent to Mankind and the Djinn.
The problem with these RUclips channels is that they promote any topic even when they don’t believe in it themselves. I very much doubt that Paul is a Salafi who believes in apostasy laws
What genius scholars are you babbling about. If the Salafi so called “scholars” of the past were geniuses then the Islamic world wouldn’t be in the dark ages
All that these genius scholars and people like hamza tzortis bring you is more darkness and distort the Quran with false Hadith on apostasy that directly contradict the Quran
Salaams, brother Paul, and thank you ❤ Another amazing talk. Sincere thanks for all your guidance. I will be going to London soon to take my Shahada with my muslim family members. I will always remember you in my dua. I feel so happy ❤
None of the ayats you mention are defining concepts of Islam. One can enter a garden and be impressed by the beauty around, or one can enter it and with a magnifying glass look for the worms and the beasties in it. @komrij1944
@@komrij1944 We are not here to waste time, friend. If you are serious and want to learn and understand that is something else. If we answer your questions, whatever they are, are you going to embrace Islam, if not, don't waste our time. Greetings from Scandinavia.
The quality of their discourse is outstanding, showcasing exceptional intelligence and depth. Our precious brother Paul brings the best of the best to us. Jazak Allahu khair Hamza Tzortzis and Paul.
@@johnbrzykcy3076we Humans need to stop associating Great Wisdom with Old age, Wisdom is taught and can be taught to anyone of Any age. We must stray away from this weak thinking! may Allah bless us all with more Wisdom ❤️
@@VelociJX I actually tend to agree with you. Because some young people seem to have a lot of wisdom. And another good example, although not necessarily pertaining to age, was Jesus Christ Himself. His wisdom was remarkable. By the way, I should mention that I'm not Muslim. I'm a simple Christian believer. My lack of wisdom is probably influenced by heredity and environment. I've had cancer twice and it seems like my brain cells are deteriorating. So I'm wondering if I'd have the intellectual ability to understand the Quran ? ( Especially since I don't know Arabic language ). Do you need wisdom to understand the Quran? Anyhow, I appreciate your honesty. Respectfully..
Brother Hamza is one of the best in understanding Islamic thoughts in dept truly amazing! Brother Paul did really good, it's always a struggle to interview knowledgeable people in Hamza's scale! So much respect to you both ❤ 👏, learned something anytime I listened to/watched anyone of you, may Allah SWT reward you for your generosity in sharing knowledge, Aamin 😊
Such a robust argument, brother Hamza is a lovely gem for the Ummah. I'd also love to see you invite the brother mentioned to discuss Islamic law vs applied Islamic law, it seems like a very interesting topic that isn't covered much at all.
Excellent defence by our brother Hamza Tzortzis. I spotted one segment, the equality section, in which the liberal position could have been better represented, although it wasn't a strawman per se. Liberals may concede that worldviews are not ontologically equal, but maintain that there should be a kind of pragmatic (limited) legal equality on the basis that liberalism is not the ontological ideology of an ideological group, but a meta-political-ideology that segments of all ideological groups can agree to adhere to in the interests of advancing a kind of peace whereby none of the less dominant ideological groups feel the need to take up arms to defend their survival or their honour or their ability to fairly advance their ideas in the marketplace of ideas or whatever else. (There's plenty to say on this, but I just wanted it to be noted in the interest of bringing it to Hamza's attention so he can strengthen his defence of Islam for the next time he gives this presentation, in sha' Allah).
Let there be no compulsion in religion, for the truth stands out clearly from falsehood. 1 So whoever renounces false gods and believes in Allah has certainly grasped the firmest, unfailing hand-hold. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing. 🙏
He did a free webinar during covid pandemic lockdown time. May Allah bless brother Hamza Tzortzis. His book The Devine Reality is very nice. He has always been humble (mashAllah) about his work too. He had mentioned how classical scholars of Islam had already debunked atheism and scholars back in the day didn't even entertain this idea in a debate, bcs of its lack of logic/sense etc. ....Fast forward, here we are. Humans can be weird huh?! ..but Alhumdolillah Allah gave us brother Tzortzis for writing in modern language about this topic.
This is very good. As soon as we hear ‘apostasy’ we tend to imagine harsh punishments however emphasising mercy and showing how this is the sunnah of the Prophet is so good to hear
Yet there has been no persecution by exmuslims, only persecution of exmuslims. If an ideology kills people who reject it, then logic dictates that it is a poor ideology.
@mozenwrath4u Most Muslim majority countries are run by liberal dictators. Ex-Muslims are presidents, and Muslims are second-class citizens in Muslim majority countries.
AllahuAkbar....A very robust arguement from Brother Hamza. One of the best thing I ever heard regarding Apostasy Law. My questions were answered. May Allah bless u Brother Paul for bringing so much interesting content. Allah is guiding me through ur channel.
I made a dua to Allah to make me a better listener and now brother Hamza strongly recommended a book to be a better listener. Alhamdulillah. Allah is always listening.
I quote what the Qur'an says regarding this issue, since the Qur'an overrules any other source: لَآ إِكْرَاهَ فِى ٱلدِّينِ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ ٱلرُّشْدُ مِنَ ٱلْغَىِّ فَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِٱلطَّـٰغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِنۢ بِٱللَّـهِ فَقَدِ ٱسْتَمْسَكَ بِٱلْعُرْوَةِ ٱلْوُثْقَىٰ لَا ٱنفِصَامَ لَهَا وَٱللَّـهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ There is no compulsion in doctrine; sound judgment has become clear from error. So whoso denies idols and believes in God, he has grasped the most firm handhold which has no break; and God is hearing and knowing. (2:256) إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ ثُمَّ كَفَرُوا۟ ثُمَّ ءَامَنُوا۟ ثُمَّ كَفَرُوا۟ ثُمَّ ٱزْدَادُوا۟ كُفْرًا لَّمْ يَكُنِ ٱللَّـهُ لِيَغْفِرَ لَهُمْ وَلَا لِيَهْدِيَهُمْ سَبِيلًۢا Those who heed warning; then deny; then believe (note they weren't killed for apostasy); then deny; then increase in denial: God will not forgive them, nor guide them on a path. (4:137) The punishment of apostasy is not being guided and going to hell after you die. If that is not punishment enough according to the sects...
Great talk with many good insights. Though other commentors have already stated this (and Ustadh Hamza touched on it), there have been examples in Islamic history where not only have apostates not been dealt with, some were out into positions of leadership. The potential of rebellion and allegiance is one thing I wish Ustadh Hamza had gone more into. That is key element that gives more human reality to the shariah.
The impossible state book by wael hallaq explains the point why we cannot apply sharia in a modern nation state and why its impossible very well. Hamza makes the same point in the first part of the video. I recommend to watch paul's playlist of that book or read it urself to understand this particular point in more detail.
I recommend reading Dr. Sherman Jackson's Islamic Secular book (2024) where he pushes back against some of Wael Hallaq's framings and conclusions (though D.r Jackson acknowledges the deficiency and inadequacy of the nation-state).
Video recommendation : it may take a long time to get this together but I'd love to see the applied law part. I feel too many people can't understand the difficult parts in this video. It's quite a scholarly topic
The issue of defending apostasy law on the basis it provides social cohesion (or the offender is breaking social contract) is that by that logic pagan apostasy like that of the companions (sahabas) is also condemnable.
I found this to be a good overall presentation. It covered social conhesion, hikmah of the law and a proper contextual comparison. However, there is one thing it did not cover and that is sentencing. In his defence, Hamza did mention this right at the very end regarding law and applied law. The law is different to sentence. From what I understand and have been led to believe is that a sentence can be relaxed given pervading circumstances. It is not always the case that the Hadd punishment - which literally means limit - must be used - it infers the penal system in Islam is not absolute, but prescribes limits of penalties ascribed to different types of crimes. It does not prevent the judge of sentencing with lesser punishment than the prescribed limit. Hadd.
Yeah it's probably because this was only intended to defend the law itself based on Islamic sources. Since we haven't had a khilaafat in a while and far from our current political world, we haven't experienced it to know the nuances of what the applied law would look like. I feel like an empathetic immersion into what it would be like living in such a world is important, otherwise we only scratch the surface with theoretics
Apostasy law is not based on the holy Qur'an but based on the jurisprudence developed during the early and medieval age of Islam. These types of laws are branded as shariah law has created radical mindsets in Muslim societies, as a result Muslims with different understanding of the Qur'an and religion than the conventional understanding have been suffering persecution in the hands of fellow Muslims.
Welcome to the incredible methodology of Islamic law where the methodology included is extracted by the source material open and with elaborate step by step proofs. This is not your christian or any other religions like secularisms whim based rule makings. I recommend to still your ignorance about the topic by reading a jurisprudence methodology book. There should even free lectures available on RUclips. For short your premise has a wrong assumption plus your second conclusion doesnt follow logically and is historical inaccurate. Learn before you talk. And be sincere before you learn.
@@l3ll5l I’m muslim. I just don’t belive that Islam kills people who chose not te believe, nor that Islam stones people when they commit zina. They get punished though as stated in the Quran. I read a lot of fiqh books. But you worship old scholars. I bet you can’t understand arabic and you need a translation. I recommend that tou learn arabic and read for yourself. Hadith is not Quran and it can be wrong. Not that rassoul allah (saaws) was wrong but people lied about him. On this particular topic, this man have ISIS ideology.
@@l3ll5l Thank you for your offer to educate me. My above comment on apostasy law is not based on assumptions but based on my considered opinion as a student of the holy Qur'an and theology. As per my understanding apostasy, blasphemy etc are sins not crimes, therefore, punishment for these types of sins are beyond the mandate of a society or state. Only Allah SWT will decide the fates of those sinners on the day of judgment. Capital punishment for crimes other than murder and anarchy are extra Qur'anic, hence, it is not obligatory for Muslims to accept and endorse those punishments.
Dear Paul, I noticed my previous comments were removed. I just wanted to express my appreciation for all the hard work you put into your content. I understand that my comments were critical in nature, discussing the premises of the argument made in the video. If my analysis was off or not clear, I’d appreciate any clarification or further refinement. As student of knowledge , I believe constructive criticism is a vital part of expanding our understanding.
Muhammad Al Massari invited Hamza to discuss apostasy on his podcast, he didn’t accept. It would have shown him the other side which rejects apostasy (while also being grounded in tradition.)
No, they won't engage with any qualified Muslims who can challenge the teachings of their ideology. Their sect is rather cult like. They do however like engaging.with people who know nothing about Islam but are experts in Physics even though they are not lol.
Brother Paul has become a professional interviewer in the english speaking muslim circle, whoever has to discuss something important, they come to Blogging Theology :)
There are 2 contesting ideas: a. Believe refers to believing that God is the only source of truth, therefore the voices of god, the clerics, cannot be questioned b. Believe refers to believing that God is the ever present witness, since there is a witness there is responsibility (Judgement Day) If you want evidence for b, look for the word Imaan/believe in the Quran, nearby you will see 3 things: god, witness, Judgement Day. That is to say, disbeliever refers to people who doesn't believe there is a witness, therefore they will be demanded responsibility, not simply not believing there is a god (the one god). They will do whatever they want, say whatever they want, breaking promises and social expectations.
I propose that the Abrahamic religions start with a creature that is both obedient and rebellious. Therefore they have conflicts and also compromises. And there is a witness. Since there is a witness, there is responsibility. Therefore the Judgement Day. In that order of cause and effect. Instead of hell as a punishment for disobeying god, god is completely neutral, he is just a witness. Nothing you do will benefit Him.
اللَّهُمَّ أَعِنِّيْ عَلَى ذِكْرِكَ وَشُكْرِكَ وَحُسْنِ عِبَادَتِكَ Allahumma a inni Ala Zikrik Wa Shukrika Wa Husni Ibadatika O Allah, help me remember You, to be grateful to You, and to worship You,
It is sunnah to recite {Subhaanal-Malikil-Quddus} 3 times after the Witr prayer, while elongating the words in the third time. سُبْحَانَ الْمَلِكِ الْقُدُّوسِ Subhaanal-Malikil-Quddus, Subhaanal-Malikil-Quddus, Subhaanal-Malikil-Qudduuuuuuuus (or Subhaaaaanal-Malikil-Quddus). Sunan an-Nasa’i 1729
Whoever asks Allah (s.w.t) Paradise three times, Paradise says: 'O Allah, admit him into Paradise', and whoever seeks refuge from the Fire three times, the Fire says: 'O Allah, save him from the Fire.'" اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَسْأَلُكَ الْجَنَّةَ وَأَعُوذُ بِكَ مِنَ النَّارِ
The host is, as always, gracious and well-informed, the guest is obviously intelligent and articulate, BUT the effort or inclination to stifle, indeed to punish, personal or public mockery of the prophet or Allah or Islam does not demonstrate courage but rather weakness. A long time ago, there was a highly controversial exhibit in an American museum which required people to step on the Stars and Stripes, draped on the floor, if they wanted to approach and experience the exhibit. A short letter to the editor of a local newspaper made the perfect response to the flood of criticism and condemnation, culminating in "patriotic" demands that the exhibit be removed. "The only flag worth fighting for is one you're free to step on."
The Taqeen Insitute article by JB basically argues that, it's super well written Ibn Humām spells this out clearly when he explains, “It is necessary to punish apostasy with death in order to avert the evil of war, not as punishment for the act of unbelief, because the greatest punishment for that is with God.” A foundational textbook in the Shafi’i school of law (the Muhadhdhab of Abū Isḥāq al-Shīrāzī, d. 1083) listed ridda not under criminal punishments (Hudud) but under the chapter on dealing with rebellion (al-Bughāt). Some proof it was considered a treason and political thing It would be impossible for the Qur’an to affirm human beings’ freedom of choice in more than two hundred verses, then punish those who exercise this freedom with such a stern penalty, particularly when they have done nothing to hurt anyone but themselves Apostasy in Islam: A Historical and Scriptural Analysis - Taha Jabir Alalwani
What the man in long beard says hardly makes any sense. Just hollow words with few Arabic jargons. What he says means that Islam was and continues to be a fascist political military ideology in the garb of religion. It has hardly any spiritual message for welfare of humanity or any philosophical depth..
Historically, the concept of apostasy has evolved. During the last year of the Muslim Prophet life, actions that would later be termed as apostasy were initially labeled as 'hypocrisy' (nifāq). This indicates that religious interpretations, especially concerning apostasy, have shifted over time. The early 'wars of apostasy' further muddled the understanding of this term by intertwining it with political implications. Mixing religious beliefs with political goals has strongly shaped how Arab-Muslims view apostasy. For instance, the clans, tribes, and individuals mentioned by al-Zamakhsharī were not persecuted merely for renouncing their faith. Instead, the consequences they faced were largely due to the broader political implications of their decisions on the Muslim community. The Qur'an does address apostasy, primarily emphasizing the spiritual consequences of turning away from faith. However, it's crucial to note that the Qur'an does not explicitly prescribe the death penalty for apostasy. The historical narrative paints a more complex picture. For instance, during the reign of Abū Bakr, the treatment of apostates was influenced by the political ramifications of their actions rather than purely their religious choices.
I'm really in haste, but probably next time, and yes, on one side of the spectrum, you're right, I wish I could share more insights on this topic here, however, thanks for the take
In Islam, you can not force a kafir to become a Muslim, which is clear in the Qur'an and Sunnah. However, the Prophet Muhammed, salalahu aleyhi wa salam, said, whoever changes his religion, kill him. The Sahabah, Tabe'een, and At-ba'a Tabe'een, and the leading Scholars, until today, all of them acted upon the Command of the Prophet Muhammed, salalahu aleyhi wa salam. An apostate fuels widespread disorder and confusion. His apostasy prompts others to question their beliefs. He is the seed of imbalance. Hence, it is better to uproot the mischief before it is deep rooted in the ground. For example, if there is a basket of apples wherein there is one rotten apple, what will the owner of the apples do? He will get rid of the rotten apple to preserve the rest of the apples. If he keeps the rotten apple merely because it is an apple, he will be deemed foolish. In the very same manner, an apostate carries rotten beliefs, he must be removed from the basket of the world to preserve the spiritual welfare of others. Anything which is a threat to Eeman will be uprooted. Greetings from Scandinavia.
@@TheSlaveOfAllah1992brother we are talking about ideas here. You are comparing spreading ideas to spreading rot in society. Don't you see that this principle can be just as easily applied to the idea of Dawah? Should daiis be killed by non muslims to prevent the spread of Islam?
@@TheSlaveOfAllah1992 How do we know the Hadith of whomever changes his religion kill him was a general statement and not a statement related to specific circumstances going on at the time?
Haven't watched the video yet (though I intend to) but I would recommend the book "Apostasy in Islam: A Historical and Scriptural Analysis" by Taha Jabir Al-Alwani. He's a Sunni Muslim scholar (graduated from Al-Azhar) and his book demonstrates fairly well that apostasy laws are not really "part of the religion" per se. The apostasy rulings in the 4 schools were just responses to various situations the Muslims found themselves in at certain points in history. I went into the book somewhat skeptical, but he made a decent case.
Ibn Humam writes: It is necessary to punish apostasy with death in order to avert the evil of war, not as punishment for the act of unbelief, because the greatest punishment for that is with Allah. This punishment is specifically for those who wage war and this is for the man.For this reason, the Prophet prohibited killing women because they do not fight. Source: Fath ul-Qadeer volume 6 page number 68
With all respect, there's a problem here regarding the equality principle. I'd really love if someone can reply to this: Brother Hamza said that the equality principle was not violated because leaving Islam is not the same case as leaving other religions. Okay, but you justified the actual law by saying: an apostate breaks social cohesion, therefore there can be punishment for that. So, why is breaking social cohesion not equal for Muslims and non-muslims who change their religions?! It's not the same religion. True. But, it's the same fundamental act that you said is justified to be punished (breaking social cohesion)!!
@graysonbrockk Grayson, you had questions about apostasy. This video with Hamza Tzortzis should clarify many topics. It's broad. Much broader than liberalised Muslims might imply. Paul William's Blogging Theology is a gem of information.
Hadith like Sahih al-bukhari 1883 Sunan an-nasa’i 4048 prove my point
Imam al-buti rh said if he doesn’t fight us we don’t kill him in his book al-jihad Page number 212 where he defines to cases of apostasy the non fighter is treated as a normal kaffir where he isn’t killed also not forced to Islam (2:256) The prophet never forced anyone to follow his religion like ibn al-Qayim said, al-Shāfī’ī adds some people have believed then disbelieved but the prophet didn’t kill them the prophet never killed any apostate
WELL DONE !! If there is just ONE OTHER HADITH that said that a NORMAL PEACEFUL apostate DID NOT fight back or cause trouble and he was not KILLED or FORCED into Islam, ( in other word, he was able to live his live peacefully after that )........... then we MUST GO BACK to the QURAN again ( 2:256 )..........and there WE HAVE IT !!!
When apostasy continues to persist in disbelief and increases in it, they are moving away from success and guidance towards the right path. as this Quranic verse indicates " Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way. " Quran 4 : 137
I recommend the invaluable book (Reasoning with God: reclaiming the sharia in modern age) by the sheykh and scholar Dr Khaled Abou El Fadl, who is a true specialist in sharia and Islamic jurisprudence, which are two distinct things, but most people confuse them. He is also a lawyer and professor of law who has tirelessly and concretely defended the Palestinian cause for as long as he can remember. He has a huuuuge library of Islamic books at home and has lived his whole life immersed in them, all the while having received a traditional and enlightened education from his homeland. Islam is beautiful and its fruits are bound to be beautiful and good.
There is no such thing as “apostasy laws” in Islam. The Quran clearly allows the freedom to choose whatever religion you want to follow, and Quran forbids forcing religion on people
@@RosewiththornsRWT still the Quran gives anyone the freedom to leave the religion whenever he or she wants. The Hadith that contradict the Quran on this topic of apostasy are all false and come from ikrima son of abujahl
When you say that liberalism has its own intolerances, your right. But islam has its own intolerances as well. The point that many want to make is that Islam creates its own parallel society within western culture that runs nearly opposite in value structure. How are we supposed to have common rules if one side is playing chess and the other is playing checkers? What you end up with is cultures running into eachother. You know, I wasnt in support of what the rioters did to the mosques in the UK. Im definitely in support of those who peacefully protested. People need to have more open discussions instead of trying to suppress tensions between communities. This is probably going to boil over again if people don't start trying to have an open dialogue with eachother.
Dear Paul, I go through ur channel from time to time. Happened to listen the discussion on the subject of apostasy. Please find below a small article which I had written on the subject. Freedom of belief and disbelief in Islam By P.P. Abdul Razak The goal of this small article is to correct a widely held misconception related to the freedom of belief and disbelief Islam gives to a person. It is true that conversion from Islam to other religions is very minimal when we compare reversion into Islam. Many falsely attribute this phenomenon to a false reason saying that Muslims are afraid of changing their religions while other religionists are free to change their belief. Does Islam stipulate any punishment, leave alone the capital punishment, for conversion from Islam to any other religion? Let us look into the subject in question both from the scriptural and the historical perspectives. I don’t want to make any interpretation at all as such while discussing this subject. I want to quote the Quranic verses that explicitly promulgate the freedom of belief and disbelief. First I would like to make it clear loud and lucid that all the Quranic verses that I did quote in this respect were revealed in Medina at a later period of Prophet’s life after establishment of the Islamic state. Apart from the verse that unequivocally prohibits any kind of compulsion in the matter of religion (2:256 ), the Quran in 4:137 explicitly mentions about freedom of belief and disbelief. “Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, and then believed (again) and after disbelieved and became arrogant and increased in their disbelief, Allah will neither forgive them nor will He guide them”. Here the belief, disbelief, again belief and finally disbelief in a person is clearly mentioned. These are not interpretations. This denotes freedom of belief and disbelief. If there was a capital punishment for apostasy, he/she won’t have even a chance to believe again and disbelieve. Finally, it doesn’t say anything about the punishment except in the Hereafter life. So, it is very clear that Irthidaad 3any Dheen ( treason) and Mufaaraqat from al-Jamaa3at ( literal meaning: desertion of the society in an attempt to create anarchy and/or civil strife) has got clear political connotation and is equal to treason in the modern perspective. Al-Jamaa3at is equal to the concept of the modern state. Any tradition or opinion contradicting Quran is not acceptable at all from the perspective of Islamic jurisprudence. It is unanimous opinion of all schools of thought in Islam with no difference at all. I can quote even many more verses in this respect. At the same time, please note that there is no single verse in Quran that dictates capital punishment for apostasy. There is no record in Islamic history during the time of prophet or Khualafaau Raashideen having punished anybody for his personal apostasy. Abdulla bin Saad was prophet’s scribe and he had abandoned Islam. Prophet didn’t punish him. For Treason, almost all countries give capital punishment except the countries in European Union and some other countries in which we see the culprits get murdered by shooting of the police and security forces in the so called “encounters” even without going through a proper judicial process at all. Quran again says: “A section of the people of the Book say: ‘Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers. But reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back. (3:72). A section of people used the tactic to create doubt among the Muslims in the hope that some of them might thereby be beguiled into repudiating Islam. How could it be possible for non Muslims to have enacted this plan to entice Muslims to believe one day and reject next, if death was the penalty for apostasy?!... Let me quote another two verses from the Glorious Quran that promulgate freedom of belief and disbelief unequivocally from the very beginning of prophethood of Muhammad. "And proclaim: "This is the Truth from your Lord. Now let him who will, believe; and let him who will, disbelieve." (18:29) "Surely We showed him the Right Path, regardless of whether he chooses to be thankful or unthankful (to his Lord)." (76:3) Hypocrisy (Nifaaq) is almost tantamount to treason especially when it becomes organized and it had and has been prevalent throughout the Islamic history from the very beginning and mostly for the political reasons. Even Abdulla Ibn Ubayyu bin Sulool, the leader of the organized Hypocrisy (Nifaq), was not given any punishment. Musailima had written a letter to the prophet Mohammad claiming a share in the prophet-hood. Prophet Mohammad didn’t implement any punishment on Musailima except giving a reply in writing. Musailima was killed in a war (Yamaama) initiated by himself during the reign of Abu Bakr. It was not only Musailima who had claimed the prophet-hood. His wife Saja and Thulayha Al Asadi, who had embraced Islam before (and not killed because of his apostasy!), also had claimed prophet-hood like Musailima. Saja believed in Islam after the death of Musalima. (That itself shows the sincerity of the claim of Musailima as well!). Thulaiha also got killed in a war initiated by him and his followers. Ubaidulla, husband of Ummu Habeeba, who had migrated to Abyssinia with his wife had abandoned Islam and converted into Christianity. Prophet didn't want to take any Please correct me if I am mistaken. I really wonder about and ponder over the attitude of the people spreading false information in this respect without any reference. Despite having all these scriptural proofs and substantiating historical evidences against the argument being raised to tarnish the face of Islam, the protagonists of the vicious propaganda seem to be keeping on saying the same old thing arrogantly doing omission and commission, distortion and misappropriation to make things fit into their schemes. I am not here to judge on their intention though I can’t help thinking why they do behave like this, regardless of the difference of opinions and beliefs we all may have amongst us.
The Qur’an does not approve of apostasy, but at the same time, it makes no provision for the execution of apostates. In fact it could be surprisingly lenient toward those who reneged on Islam, as in Q. al-Baqara 2:109, which urges forgiveness of individuals who depart the Muslim community without any clear expectation of their returning… This more lenient attitude is also attested in precanonical ḥadīth collections…" (Sahner, Christian Martyrs Under Islam, 35-36) When did this "liberal attitude" change? "It did not take long for this liberal attitude to give way to fierce opposition. The change was owed to several factors, among them the experience of the Ridda Wars (ca. 11-12/632-33), when numerous Arab tribes ‘apostatized’ following Muḥammad’s death, refusing to pay taxes to his successor, Abū Bakr. In the wake of this tumult, a strong consensus emerged that apostasy was inadmissible and should be punished by d
Another thing about incitement to violence : the way in which the law of apostasy seems to me to work out in a real scenario, it looks it is in a way a prevention to inciting violence, which the apostates are usually guilty of (I think you did day something about Palestine and how apostates are readily throwing their lives under the bus) Anyway, is it just me that feels like us not having a khilaafat in a long time - its end predates social and most popular media - makes getting islamic information on these topics quite difficult. I feel like we also don't put out enough reading and learning materials on how these things were practiced in actual scenarios. We're stuck with discussing theoreticals (which can sometimes be overwhelmingly linear and understated) more than the history that shows what really happened and studying it
No ridda law. Just read the Quran. Punishmnet is in teh afterlife. Yes at the time of war special laws can be adopted, but not at the time of peace. Traditional scholars got many things wrong.
موضوع مهم أتمنى لو كانت تطبق في بلداننا و لكن الأساس فاسد لايمت للدّين بصلة و القوانين فرنسية باستثناء قوانين الأحوال الشخصية التي يتم تغيرها الآن للتناسب لتنال قبول الغرب ، لإنه للأسف أصبح التطاول على الدّين مقرفاً و السب على الله و الإسائة للأنبياء ، فعندما يتطاول السفهاء تجد الذين هم مسلمين بالهوية يسايرونهم و يضحكون فلا تعلم هل هم مسلمون أم منافقون أم كفار و بعض المسلمين السذج يظنون بأن الإسائة للدّين و التمرد عليه هو انفتاح فلا بد كل فترة أن تسمع من يستهزء بالدّين أو يسب الله عندما يغضب ، لو أن الحكم يطبق لكان الناس لزموا حدودهم كما قطع يد السارق تكون عقوبة تأديبية لغيره و بالأساس فهي ستطبق عن طريق الدولة فلا ضرر من تطبيقها و لكن ليس غريباً الجهل في الدّين الخطباء يتقيدون بما تمليه عليهم الدولة ، فعندما تريد الدولة تشويه الشريعة الإسلامية فكيف ستسمح بالتوعية و رد الشبهات
What a wonderful saying " What is the point of being an intellectual if you are going to be a coward " 👍
Top level intellectalism is common sense with courage
FACTS
He should be a president
Actually Intellectualism doesn’t teach you to be bold rather thoughtful otherwise all the army generals would have been intellectuals. 🤔
@@Saa42808 it is false assumption. Courage can have many forms in different fields. TRUE COURAGE IS SAYING TRUTH When needed. IT IS FIght for truth when needed.
This channel is like an islamic library Ma shaa Allah.
One hundred percent! You completely get lost in thought here, not knowing how many hours you spent listening/watching because you are so amazed and intellectually nourished
The channel is like a click bait for naive uneducated Salafis
Why i love your channel is because i get so many exciting modern researched books on Islam by young Erudite modern Muslim scholars who either scientifically updates past scholarly works of those genius past scholars or throw more light on their writings which authenticated the truth of Islam as the final religion sent to Mankind and the Djinn.
This is so well put and completely nails the uniqueness of Paul's channel allahumma barik!
The problem with these RUclips channels is that they promote any topic even when they don’t believe in it themselves. I very much doubt that Paul is a Salafi who believes in apostasy laws
What genius scholars are you babbling about. If the Salafi so called “scholars” of the past were geniuses then the Islamic world wouldn’t be in the dark ages
It’s these supposed “genius” Salafis scholars and imams that destroyed the golden age of Islam that was created by the philosophers like ibn Sina
All that these genius scholars and people like hamza tzortis bring you is more darkness and distort the Quran with false Hadith on apostasy that directly contradict the Quran
Salam from Penang. Super! Thanks for this great session. Need more from Hamza T of different topics...
wa alaikum assalam
Paul, I just want to say I love you, may Allah protect you and grow you and your work.❤
we love you guys for the sake of Allah ❤
Salaams, brother Paul, and thank you ❤ Another amazing talk. Sincere thanks for all your guidance. I will be going to London soon to take my Shahada with my muslim family members. I will always remember you in my dua. I feel so happy ❤
wa alaikum assalam that is wonderful alhamdulilah!
@@BloggingTheology Thank you 😊 🙏
None of the ayats you mention are defining concepts of Islam. One can enter a garden and be impressed by the beauty around, or one can enter it and with a magnifying glass look for the worms and the beasties in it. @komrij1944
@@komrij1944 We are not here to waste time, friend.
If you are serious and want to learn and understand that is something else.
If we answer your questions, whatever they are, are you going to embrace Islam, if not, don't waste our time.
Greetings from Scandinavia.
@@TheSlaveOfAllah1992why this condition to accept Islam? Will you leave Islam if you can't answer the questions?
First met Hamza when had just taken his Shahada, he was always a very nice person, May Allah Bless him
Wow. When was that?!
It's always a pleasure seeing ustadh Hamza
poor paul is sick and still did that: May allah give u a long life and health
I am much better now alhamdulillah
@@BloggingTheology
@@BloggingTheologyAlhumdullilah
Very informative video. I understand this law much better! Jazak Allah.
Fantastic episode with an amazing guest
Another great video Paul, great dedication to put out these long-length quality videos.
Mash'Allah an excellent talk on an important topic, by Hamza Tzortzis.
Brother Paul I always look forward to your videos. Thanks for providing us with great videos.
Glad you like them!
@@BloggingTheologyThanks for making this video Paul
I did ask you a while back
Allah Bless you Paul and Hamza
The quality of their discourse is outstanding, showcasing exceptional intelligence and depth. Our precious brother Paul brings the best of the best to us. Jazak Allahu khair Hamza Tzortzis and Paul.
Jazakallah.As usual a very thought provoking discussion.Again May Allah reward you immensely brother Paul
I occasionally listen to Br Hamza and can't help to notice the excellent use of gestures in explanation. Brilliant!!
Can’t believe Hamza is just 45, he has the wisdom of a 70 or 80 year old.
He is 44.
I'm 70 but I don't feel like I possess much wisdom. But I can keep hoping.
Respectfully
@@johnbrzykcy3076we Humans need to stop associating Great Wisdom with Old age, Wisdom is taught and can be taught to anyone of Any age. We must stray away from this weak thinking!
may Allah bless us all with more Wisdom ❤️
@@VelociJX Do you have wisdom? Do you want wisdom?
@@VelociJX I actually tend to agree with you. Because some young people seem to have a lot of wisdom. And another good example, although not necessarily pertaining to age, was Jesus Christ Himself. His wisdom was remarkable.
By the way, I should mention that I'm not Muslim. I'm a simple Christian believer.
My lack of wisdom is probably influenced by heredity and environment. I've had cancer twice and it seems like my brain cells are deteriorating.
So I'm wondering if I'd have the intellectual ability to understand the Quran ? ( Especially since I don't know Arabic language ). Do you need wisdom to understand the Quran?
Anyhow, I appreciate your honesty. Respectfully..
May Allah Bless and Reward Both of you in this Life and in the Hereafter.
Aameen
Alhamdulillah great to see hamza and yourself sir Paul jazak Allahu khair. Great works.
Brother Hamza is one of the best in understanding Islamic thoughts in dept truly amazing!
Brother Paul did really good, it's always a struggle to interview knowledgeable people in Hamza's scale! So much respect to you both ❤ 👏, learned something anytime I listened to/watched anyone of you, may Allah SWT reward you for your generosity in sharing knowledge, Aamin 😊
This is an amazing lecture. Jazakumullahu khair Hamza and Paul.
Such a robust argument, brother Hamza is a lovely gem for the Ummah. I'd also love to see you invite the brother mentioned to discuss Islamic law vs applied Islamic law, it seems like a very interesting topic that isn't covered much at all.
إنه من الرائع أن نشهد الأخ حمزة تزورتزس على قناتك المحترمة
جزاكم الله خيرا عن سائر المسلمين
May Allah reward you for your efforts.
May Allah bless you all brother's ❤
Paul is a great man. And he always able to choose the best guests.
Spot on as always. Many thanks for you Paul and Hamza, the author of the.great book, The Divine Love".
Great presentation from brother Hamza❤
Excellent defence by our brother Hamza Tzortzis. I spotted one segment, the equality section, in which the liberal position could have been better represented, although it wasn't a strawman per se.
Liberals may concede that worldviews are not ontologically equal, but maintain that there should be a kind of pragmatic (limited) legal equality on the basis that liberalism is not the ontological ideology of an ideological group, but a meta-political-ideology that segments of all ideological groups can agree to adhere to in the interests of advancing a kind of peace whereby none of the less dominant ideological groups feel the need to take up arms to defend their survival or their honour or their ability to fairly advance their ideas in the marketplace of ideas or whatever else.
(There's plenty to say on this, but I just wanted it to be noted in the interest of bringing it to Hamza's attention so he can strengthen his defence of Islam for the next time he gives this presentation, in sha' Allah).
Great point
Let there be no compulsion in religion, for the truth stands out clearly from falsehood. 1 So whoever renounces false gods and believes in Allah has certainly grasped the firmest, unfailing hand-hold. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing. 🙏
Wonderful episode!! we need more of brother Hamza's videos !
The point that Hamza made on minute 1:05:32 is excellent.
Thank you Brothers❤ may Allah rewards you:)
He did a free webinar during covid pandemic lockdown time. May Allah bless brother Hamza Tzortzis. His book The Devine Reality is very nice. He has always been humble (mashAllah) about his work too. He had mentioned how classical scholars of Islam had already debunked atheism and scholars back in the day didn't even entertain this idea in a debate, bcs of its lack of logic/sense etc. ....Fast forward, here we are. Humans can be weird huh?! ..but Alhumdolillah Allah gave us brother Tzortzis for writing in modern language about this topic.
Who else would love to see a discussion between Jordan Peterson and Hamza Tzortzis?
This is very good. As soon as we hear ‘apostasy’ we tend to imagine harsh punishments however emphasising mercy and showing how this is the sunnah of the Prophet is so good to hear
Jazaakumullaahu khairan brother Paul
I stopped feeling uncomfortable about apostasy law in Islam after seeing how hate-filled all online murtads are. Islam is right about apostasy 💪
Yet there has been no persecution by exmuslims, only persecution of exmuslims. If an ideology kills people who reject it, then logic dictates that it is a poor ideology.
@mozenwrath4u Most Muslim majority countries are run by liberal dictators. Ex-Muslims are presidents, and Muslims are second-class citizens in Muslim majority countries.
@@swgg2887so u think they should have their lives ended cuz they hurt your feelings
No wonder you think Islam is true
So if someone converts to islam from Other religion would it be justified to kill them
What if all religions have their own laws for killing apostate, we enter into zombie world 🤦
2 men of Integrity. May Allah reward you both for all the good that you do.
I don’t think you understand what the word integrity means
what?
AllahuAkbar....A very robust arguement from Brother Hamza. One of the best thing I ever heard regarding Apostasy Law. My questions were answered. May Allah bless u Brother Paul for bringing so much interesting content. Allah is guiding me through ur channel.
I made a dua to Allah to make me a better listener and now brother Hamza strongly recommended a book to be a better listener. Alhamdulillah. Allah is always listening.
I quote what the Qur'an says regarding this issue, since the Qur'an overrules any other source:
لَآ إِكْرَاهَ فِى ٱلدِّينِ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ ٱلرُّشْدُ مِنَ ٱلْغَىِّ فَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِٱلطَّـٰغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِنۢ بِٱللَّـهِ فَقَدِ ٱسْتَمْسَكَ بِٱلْعُرْوَةِ ٱلْوُثْقَىٰ لَا ٱنفِصَامَ لَهَا وَٱللَّـهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ
There is no compulsion in doctrine; sound judgment has become clear from error. So whoso denies idols and believes in God, he has grasped the most firm handhold which has no break; and God is hearing and knowing.
(2:256)
إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ ثُمَّ كَفَرُوا۟ ثُمَّ ءَامَنُوا۟ ثُمَّ كَفَرُوا۟ ثُمَّ ٱزْدَادُوا۟ كُفْرًا لَّمْ يَكُنِ ٱللَّـهُ لِيَغْفِرَ لَهُمْ وَلَا لِيَهْدِيَهُمْ سَبِيلًۢا
Those who heed warning; then deny; then believe (note they weren't killed for apostasy); then deny; then increase in denial: God will not forgive them, nor guide them on a path.
(4:137)
The punishment of apostasy is not being guided and going to hell after you die.
If that is not punishment enough according to the sects...
53:50 If this was in a lecture hall, you'd receive a standing ovation for this statement. Allahumma barik. 😂
MashAllah... Dawah deserves nothing but support..
This is an advert against Islam. It does a disservice to Palestinians.
Apostasy laws were primitive even in the seventh century.
Great talk with many good insights. Though other commentors have already stated this (and Ustadh Hamza touched on it), there have been examples in Islamic history where not only have apostates not been dealt with, some were out into positions of leadership. The potential of rebellion and allegiance is one thing I wish Ustadh Hamza had gone more into. That is key element that gives more human reality to the shariah.
May Allah give you more power Brothers
Thanks to Allah and Paul for hosting hamzah Asadullah may Allah make him worthy of the title.
Love your channel Paul..one thing I would suggest is to maybe have more women Islamic scholars on your show.
The impossible state book by wael hallaq explains the point why we cannot apply sharia in a modern nation state and why its impossible very well. Hamza makes the same point in the first part of the video. I recommend to watch paul's playlist of that book or read it urself to understand this particular point in more detail.
Hmm I wonder if the radicals might slaughter for the wrong interpretation of the holy book
I recommend reading Dr. Sherman Jackson's Islamic Secular book (2024) where he pushes back against some of Wael Hallaq's framings and conclusions (though D.r Jackson acknowledges the deficiency and inadequacy of the nation-state).
@@Reewnat Thanks , it looks like an interesting read I'll definitely read it.
Why was this video not recommended to me by RUclips? I would have clicked on it instantly
Video recommendation : it may take a long time to get this together but I'd love to see the applied law part. I feel too many people can't understand the difficult parts in this video. It's quite a scholarly topic
The issue of defending apostasy law on the basis it provides social cohesion (or the offender is breaking social contract) is that by that logic pagan apostasy like that of the companions (sahabas) is also condemnable.
I found this to be a good overall presentation. It covered social conhesion, hikmah of the law and a proper contextual comparison. However, there is one thing it did not cover and that is sentencing. In his defence, Hamza did mention this right at the very end regarding law and applied law.
The law is different to sentence. From what I understand and have been led to believe is that a sentence can be relaxed given pervading circumstances. It is not always the case that the Hadd punishment - which literally means limit - must be used - it infers the penal system in Islam is not absolute, but prescribes limits of penalties ascribed to different types of crimes. It does not prevent the judge of sentencing with lesser punishment than the prescribed limit. Hadd.
Yeah it's probably because this was only intended to defend the law itself based on Islamic sources. Since we haven't had a khilaafat in a while and far from our current political world, we haven't experienced it to know the nuances of what the applied law would look like. I feel like an empathetic immersion into what it would be like living in such a world is important, otherwise we only scratch the surface with theoretics
Apostasy law is not based on the holy Qur'an but based on the jurisprudence developed during the early and medieval age of Islam.
These types of laws are branded as shariah law has created radical mindsets in Muslim societies, as a result Muslims with different understanding of the Qur'an and religion than the conventional understanding have been suffering persecution in the hands of fellow Muslims.
I totally agree! He talks about courage but he is just bringing the extreme view of Islam.
💯
Welcome to the incredible methodology of Islamic law where the methodology included is extracted by the source material open and with elaborate step by step proofs. This is not your christian or any other religions like secularisms whim based rule makings. I recommend to still your ignorance about the topic by reading a jurisprudence methodology book. There should even free lectures available on RUclips.
For short your premise has a wrong assumption plus your second conclusion doesnt follow logically and is historical inaccurate. Learn before you talk. And be sincere before you learn.
@@l3ll5l I’m muslim. I just don’t belive that Islam kills people who chose not te believe, nor that Islam stones people when they commit zina. They get punished though as stated in the Quran. I read a lot of fiqh books. But you worship old scholars. I bet you can’t understand arabic and you need a translation. I recommend that tou learn arabic and read for yourself. Hadith is not Quran and it can be wrong. Not that rassoul allah (saaws) was wrong but people lied about him. On this particular topic, this man have ISIS ideology.
@@l3ll5l
Thank you for your offer to educate me.
My above comment on apostasy law is not based on assumptions but based on my considered opinion as a student of the holy Qur'an and theology.
As per my understanding apostasy, blasphemy etc are sins not crimes, therefore, punishment for these types of sins are beyond the mandate of a society or state. Only Allah SWT will decide the fates of those sinners on the day of judgment.
Capital punishment for crimes other than murder and anarchy are extra Qur'anic, hence, it is not obligatory for Muslims to accept and endorse those punishments.
جزاك.الله خيرا
Nobody who watches this good channel is a coward
Barak'Allah feekom
Similar to other laws 1:14:02
Influence: 1:15:23
3 1:20:08
May ALLAH bless you both. Amin
Dear Paul,
I noticed my previous comments were removed. I just wanted to express my appreciation for all the hard work you put into your content.
I understand that my comments were critical in nature, discussing the premises of the argument made in the video. If my analysis was off or not clear, I’d appreciate any clarification or further refinement. As student of knowledge , I believe constructive criticism is a vital part of expanding our understanding.
it was probably auto delete
@@Synocra Noted; Thanks
Nice! Comments are deleted!! Here goes the freedom of speech. I didn't expect from Br. Paul.
Muhammad Al Massari invited Hamza to discuss apostasy on his podcast, he didn’t accept. It would have shown him the other side which rejects apostasy (while also being grounded in tradition.)
No, they won't engage with any qualified Muslims who can challenge the teachings of their ideology. Their sect is rather cult like. They do however like engaging.with people who know nothing about Islam but are experts in Physics even though they are not lol.
Brother Paul has become a professional interviewer in the english speaking muslim circle, whoever has to discuss something important, they come to Blogging Theology :)
There are 2 contesting ideas:
a. Believe refers to believing that God is the only source of truth, therefore the voices of god, the clerics, cannot be questioned
b. Believe refers to believing that God is the ever present witness, since there is a witness there is responsibility (Judgement Day)
If you want evidence for b, look for the word Imaan/believe in the Quran, nearby you will see 3 things: god, witness, Judgement Day.
That is to say, disbeliever refers to people who doesn't believe there is a witness, therefore they will be demanded responsibility, not simply not believing there is a god (the one god).
They will do whatever they want, say whatever they want, breaking promises and social expectations.
I propose that the Abrahamic religions start with a creature that is both obedient and rebellious.
Therefore they have conflicts and also compromises.
And there is a witness.
Since there is a witness, there is responsibility.
Therefore the Judgement Day.
In that order of cause and effect.
Instead of hell as a punishment for disobeying god, god is completely neutral, he is just a witness.
Nothing you do will benefit Him.
جزاكم الله عنا كل خير
اللَّهُمَّ أَعِنِّيْ عَلَى ذِكْرِكَ وَشُكْرِكَ وَحُسْنِ عِبَادَتِكَ
Allahumma a inni Ala Zikrik Wa Shukrika Wa Husni Ibadatika
O Allah, help me remember You, to be grateful to You, and to worship You,
It is sunnah to recite {Subhaanal-Malikil-Quddus} 3 times after the Witr prayer, while elongating the words in the third time.
سُبْحَانَ الْمَلِكِ الْقُدُّوسِ
Subhaanal-Malikil-Quddus,
Subhaanal-Malikil-Quddus,
Subhaanal-Malikil-Qudduuuuuuuus
(or Subhaaaaanal-Malikil-Quddus).
Sunan an-Nasa’i 1729
Whoever asks Allah (s.w.t) Paradise three times, Paradise says: 'O Allah, admit him into Paradise', and whoever seeks refuge from the Fire three times, the Fire says: 'O Allah, save him from the Fire.'"
اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَسْأَلُكَ الْجَنَّةَ وَأَعُوذُ بِكَ مِنَ النَّارِ
The host is, as always, gracious and well-informed, the guest is obviously intelligent and articulate, BUT the effort or inclination to stifle, indeed to punish, personal or public mockery of the prophet or Allah or Islam does not demonstrate courage but rather weakness. A long time ago, there was a highly controversial exhibit in an American museum which required people to step on the Stars and Stripes, draped on the floor, if they wanted to approach and experience the exhibit. A short letter to the editor of a local newspaper made the perfect response to the flood of criticism and condemnation, culminating in "patriotic" demands that the exhibit be removed. "The only flag worth fighting for is one you're free to step on."
Beautiful video
Can we get more content and material on breaking down secularism, liberalism, no harms principle, etc? This is great content
10:08, 11:45
13:44
H18:55
25:22
34:37
36:30
1 48:08, 49:08, 49:50
2 1:00:48, 1:03:02
Contention 1:04:32, 1:07:48
The Taqeen Insitute article by JB basically argues that, it's super well written
Ibn Humām spells this out clearly when he explains, “It is necessary to punish apostasy with death in order to avert the evil of war, not as punishment for the act of unbelief, because the greatest punishment for that is with God.”
A foundational textbook in the Shafi’i school of law (the Muhadhdhab of Abū Isḥāq al-Shīrāzī, d. 1083) listed ridda not under criminal punishments (Hudud) but under the chapter on dealing with rebellion (al-Bughāt).
Some proof it was considered a treason and political thing
It would be impossible for the Qur’an to affirm human beings’ freedom of choice in more than two hundred verses, then punish those who exercise this freedom with such a stern penalty, particularly when they have done nothing to hurt anyone but themselves
Apostasy in Islam: A Historical and Scriptural Analysis - Taha Jabir Alalwani
Correct
@@abdullahobaid1463 I agree in this kind of analysis of Islamic history.
@@PedroJrArceno Read my replies too, I posted more evidences
What the man in long beard says hardly makes any sense. Just hollow words with few Arabic jargons. What he says means that Islam was and continues to be a fascist political military ideology in the garb of religion. It has hardly any spiritual message for welfare of humanity or any philosophical depth..
Historically, the concept of apostasy has evolved. During the last year of the Muslim Prophet life, actions that would later be termed as apostasy were initially labeled as 'hypocrisy' (nifāq). This indicates that religious interpretations, especially concerning apostasy, have shifted over time.
The early 'wars of apostasy' further muddled the understanding of this term by intertwining it with political implications. Mixing religious beliefs with political goals has strongly shaped how Arab-Muslims view apostasy. For instance, the clans, tribes, and individuals mentioned by al-Zamakhsharī were not persecuted merely for renouncing their faith. Instead, the consequences they faced were largely due to the broader political implications of their decisions on the Muslim community.
The Qur'an does address apostasy, primarily emphasizing the spiritual consequences of turning away from faith. However, it's crucial to note that the Qur'an does not explicitly prescribe the death penalty for apostasy. The historical narrative paints a more complex picture. For instance, during the reign of Abū Bakr, the treatment of apostates was influenced by the political ramifications of their actions rather than purely their religious choices.
I'm really in haste, but probably next time, and yes, on one side of the spectrum, you're right, I wish I could share more insights on this topic here, however, thanks for the take
In Islam, you can not force a kafir to become a Muslim, which is clear in the Qur'an and Sunnah.
However, the Prophet Muhammed, salalahu aleyhi wa salam, said, whoever changes his religion, kill him.
The Sahabah, Tabe'een, and At-ba'a Tabe'een, and the leading Scholars, until today, all of them acted upon the Command of the Prophet Muhammed, salalahu aleyhi wa salam.
An apostate fuels widespread disorder and confusion. His apostasy prompts others to question their beliefs. He is the seed of imbalance. Hence, it is better to uproot the mischief before it is deep rooted in the ground. For example, if there is a basket of apples wherein there is one rotten apple, what will the owner of the apples do? He will get rid of the rotten apple to preserve the rest of the apples. If he keeps the rotten apple merely because it is an apple, he will be deemed foolish. In the very same manner, an apostate carries rotten beliefs, he must be removed from the basket of the world to preserve the spiritual welfare of others. Anything which is a threat to Eeman will be uprooted.
Greetings from Scandinavia.
@@TheSlaveOfAllah1992brother we are talking about ideas here. You are comparing spreading ideas to spreading rot in society. Don't you see that this principle can be just as easily applied to the idea of Dawah? Should daiis be killed by non muslims to prevent the spread of Islam?
@@TheSlaveOfAllah1992 How do we know the Hadith of whomever changes his religion kill him was a general statement and not a statement related to specific circumstances going on at the time?
@@simplyhuman2213Because that's how thousands of scholars understood it for thousands of years.
Masha Allah ❤❤❤
Haven't watched the video yet (though I intend to) but I would recommend the book "Apostasy in Islam: A Historical and Scriptural Analysis" by Taha Jabir Al-Alwani. He's a Sunni Muslim scholar (graduated from Al-Azhar) and his book demonstrates fairly well that apostasy laws are not really "part of the religion" per se. The apostasy rulings in the 4 schools were just responses to various situations the Muslims found themselves in at certain points in history. I went into the book somewhat skeptical, but he made a decent case.
What you wrote is enough to deter one from reading such a deviant's book.
Ibn Humam writes:
It is necessary to punish apostasy with death in order to avert the evil of war, not as punishment for the act of unbelief, because the greatest punishment for that is with Allah. This punishment is specifically for those who wage war and this is for the man.For this reason, the Prophet prohibited killing women because they do not fight.
Source: Fath ul-Qadeer volume 6 page number 68
With all respect, there's a problem here regarding the equality principle. I'd really love if someone can reply to this:
Brother Hamza said that the equality principle was not violated because leaving Islam is not the same case as leaving other religions.
Okay, but you justified the actual law by saying: an apostate breaks social cohesion, therefore there can be punishment for that.
So, why is breaking social cohesion not equal for Muslims and non-muslims who change their religions?!
It's not the same religion. True. But, it's the same fundamental act that you said is justified to be punished (breaking social cohesion)!!
Subhanallah
@graysonbrockk
Grayson, you had questions about apostasy. This video with Hamza Tzortzis should clarify many topics. It's broad. Much broader than liberalised Muslims might imply.
Paul William's Blogging Theology is a gem of information.
Love Brother Paul and Hamza.
Hadith like Sahih al-bukhari 1883 Sunan an-nasa’i 4048 prove my point
Imam al-buti rh said if he doesn’t fight us we don’t kill him in his book al-jihad
Page number 212 where he defines to cases of apostasy the non fighter is treated as a normal kaffir where he isn’t killed also not forced to Islam (2:256)
The prophet never forced anyone to follow his religion like ibn al-Qayim said, al-Shāfī’ī adds some people have believed then disbelieved but the prophet didn’t kill them the prophet never killed any apostate
WELL DONE !!
If there is just ONE OTHER HADITH that said that a NORMAL PEACEFUL apostate DID NOT fight back or cause trouble and he was not KILLED or FORCED into Islam,
( in other word, he was able to live his live peacefully after that )...........
then we MUST GO BACK to the QURAN again ( 2:256 )..........and there WE HAVE IT !!!
For scholasticism and intellectual rigour?…’do not go to war with these people’.
Modern scholarship has concluded that there is no basis for apostasy in the Quran and it was developed later and back projected onto the prophet.
When apostasy continues to persist in disbelief and increases in it, they are moving away from success and guidance towards the right path. as this Quranic verse indicates " Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way. " Quran 4 : 137
I recommend the invaluable book (Reasoning with God: reclaiming the sharia in modern age) by the sheykh and scholar Dr Khaled Abou El Fadl, who is a true specialist in sharia and Islamic jurisprudence, which are two distinct things, but most people confuse them. He is also a lawyer and professor of law who has tirelessly and concretely defended the Palestinian cause for as long as he can remember. He has a huuuuge library of Islamic books at home and has lived his whole life immersed in them, all the while having received a traditional and enlightened education from his homeland.
Islam is beautiful and its fruits are bound to be beautiful and good.
Manshallah Jazakumallah
Paul, please please PLEASE advise the guests AGAINST a white wallpaper for PowerPoints, it's way too bright on the eyes 😅
There is no such thing as “apostasy laws” in Islam.
The Quran clearly allows the freedom to choose whatever religion you want to follow, and Quran forbids forcing religion on people
Islam is a nuanced way of life. There are rules that apply etc. You're wrong in making such a blanket statement.
@@RosewiththornsRWT still the Quran gives anyone the freedom to leave the religion whenever he or she wants. The Hadith that contradict the Quran on this topic of apostasy are all false and come from ikrima son of abujahl
@@RosewiththornsRWT it’s the Quran that gave a blanket statement on the topic of apostasy and the freedom of religion
@@RosewiththornsRWT there is no nuance in the Quran on apostasy.
It’s very clear “there is no compulsion in religion”
I believe you found one of the many contradictions in the Quran. 8:38,39
U R Great Ya Sheikh❤
When you say that liberalism has its own intolerances, your right. But islam has its own intolerances as well. The point that many want to make is that Islam creates its own parallel society within western culture that runs nearly opposite in value structure. How are we supposed to have common rules if one side is playing chess and the other is playing checkers?
What you end up with is cultures running into eachother. You know, I wasnt in support of what the rioters did to the mosques in the UK. Im definitely in support of those who peacefully protested. People need to have more open discussions instead of trying to suppress tensions between communities. This is probably going to boil over again if people don't start trying to have an open dialogue with eachother.
Defending something of such a mamoth scale with no basis in the Quran
Dear Paul, I go through ur channel from
time to time. Happened to listen the discussion on the subject of apostasy. Please find below a small article which I had written on the subject.
Freedom of belief and disbelief in Islam
By P.P. Abdul Razak
The goal of this small article is to correct a widely held misconception related to the freedom of belief and disbelief Islam gives to a person. It is true that conversion from Islam to other religions is very minimal when we compare reversion into Islam. Many falsely attribute this phenomenon to a false reason saying that Muslims are afraid of changing their religions while other religionists are free to change their belief. Does Islam stipulate any punishment, leave alone the capital punishment, for conversion from Islam to any other religion? Let us look into the subject in question both from the scriptural and the historical perspectives.
I don’t want to make any interpretation at all as such while discussing this subject. I want to quote the Quranic verses that explicitly promulgate the freedom of belief and disbelief. First I would like to make it clear loud and lucid that all the Quranic verses that I did quote in this respect were revealed in Medina at a later period of Prophet’s life after establishment of the Islamic state.
Apart from the verse that unequivocally prohibits any kind of compulsion in the matter of religion (2:256 ), the Quran in 4:137 explicitly mentions about freedom of belief and disbelief. “Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, and then believed (again) and after disbelieved and became arrogant and increased in their disbelief, Allah will neither forgive them nor will He guide them”. Here the belief, disbelief, again belief and finally disbelief in a person is clearly mentioned. These are not interpretations. This denotes freedom of belief and disbelief. If there was a capital punishment for apostasy, he/she won’t have even a chance to believe again and disbelieve. Finally, it doesn’t say anything about the punishment except in the Hereafter life. So, it is very clear that Irthidaad 3any Dheen ( treason) and Mufaaraqat from al-Jamaa3at ( literal meaning: desertion of the society in an attempt to create anarchy and/or civil strife) has got clear political connotation and is equal to treason in the modern perspective. Al-Jamaa3at is equal to the concept of the modern state. Any tradition or opinion contradicting Quran is not acceptable at all from the perspective of Islamic jurisprudence. It is unanimous opinion of all schools of thought in Islam with no difference at all.
I can quote even many more verses in this respect. At the same time, please note that there is no single verse in Quran that dictates capital punishment for apostasy. There is no record in Islamic history during the time of prophet or Khualafaau Raashideen having punished anybody for his personal apostasy. Abdulla bin Saad was prophet’s scribe and he had abandoned Islam. Prophet didn’t punish him. For Treason, almost all countries give capital punishment except the countries in European Union and some other countries in which we see the culprits get murdered by shooting of the police and security forces in the so called “encounters” even without going through a proper judicial process at all.
Quran again says: “A section of the people of the Book say: ‘Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers. But reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back. (3:72).
A section of people used the tactic to create doubt among the Muslims in the hope that some of them might thereby be beguiled into repudiating Islam. How could it be possible for non Muslims to have enacted this plan to entice Muslims to believe one day and reject next, if death was the penalty for apostasy?!...
Let me quote another two verses from the Glorious Quran that promulgate freedom of belief and disbelief unequivocally from the very beginning of prophethood of Muhammad.
"And proclaim: "This is the Truth from your Lord. Now let him who will, believe; and let him who will, disbelieve." (18:29)
"Surely We showed him the Right Path, regardless of whether he chooses to be thankful or unthankful (to his Lord)." (76:3)
Hypocrisy (Nifaaq) is almost tantamount to treason especially when it becomes organized and it had and has been prevalent throughout the Islamic history from the very beginning and mostly for the political reasons. Even Abdulla Ibn Ubayyu bin Sulool, the leader of the organized Hypocrisy (Nifaq), was not given any punishment. Musailima had written a letter to the prophet Mohammad claiming a share in the prophet-hood. Prophet Mohammad didn’t implement any punishment on Musailima except giving a reply in writing. Musailima was killed in a war (Yamaama) initiated by himself during the reign of Abu Bakr. It was not only Musailima who had claimed the prophet-hood. His wife Saja and Thulayha Al Asadi, who had embraced Islam before (and not killed because of his apostasy!), also had claimed prophet-hood like Musailima. Saja believed in Islam after the death of Musalima. (That itself shows the sincerity of the claim of Musailima as well!). Thulaiha also got killed in a war initiated by him and his followers. Ubaidulla, husband of Ummu Habeeba, who had migrated to Abyssinia with his wife had abandoned Islam and converted into Christianity. Prophet didn't want to take any Please correct me if I am mistaken. I really wonder about and ponder over the attitude of the people spreading false information in this respect without any reference. Despite having all these scriptural proofs and substantiating historical evidences against the argument being raised to tarnish the face of Islam, the protagonists of the vicious propaganda seem to be keeping on saying the same old thing arrogantly doing omission and commission, distortion and misappropriation to make things fit into their schemes. I am not here to judge on their intention though I can’t help thinking why they do behave like this, regardless of the difference of opinions and beliefs we all may have amongst us.
Thanks
The Qur’an does not approve of apostasy, but at the same time, it makes no provision for the execution of apostates. In fact it could be surprisingly lenient toward those who reneged on Islam, as in Q. al-Baqara 2:109, which urges forgiveness of individuals who depart the Muslim community without any clear expectation of their returning… This more lenient attitude is also attested in precanonical ḥadīth collections…" (Sahner, Christian Martyrs Under Islam, 35-36) When did this "liberal attitude" change? "It did not take long for this liberal attitude to give way to fierce opposition. The change was owed to several factors, among them the experience of the Ridda Wars (ca. 11-12/632-33), when numerous Arab tribes ‘apostatized’ following Muḥammad’s death, refusing to pay taxes to his successor, Abū Bakr. In the wake of this tumult, a strong consensus emerged that apostasy was inadmissible and should be punished by d
Please check Javed Ahmed Ghamdi's view on this topic. It might help you broaden your understanding and clarify some aspects from another perspective.
Maybe chekc Netanyahu's position as well?
@@akeel6328In the process of acquiring knowledge, we must keep our emotions in check. May God help you in your endeavor.
Another thing about incitement to violence : the way in which the law of apostasy seems to me to work out in a real scenario, it looks it is in a way a prevention to inciting violence, which the apostates are usually guilty of (I think you did day something about Palestine and how apostates are readily throwing their lives under the bus)
Anyway, is it just me that feels like us not having a khilaafat in a long time - its end predates social and most popular media - makes getting islamic information on these topics quite difficult. I feel like we also don't put out enough reading and learning materials on how these things were practiced in actual scenarios. We're stuck with discussing theoreticals (which can sometimes be overwhelmingly linear and understated) more than the history that shows what really happened and studying it
No ridda law. Just read the Quran. Punishmnet is in teh afterlife. Yes at the time of war special laws can be adopted, but not at the time of peace. Traditional scholars got many things wrong.
thats interesting that Turkey is still a secular state... despite being predominantly muslim...
My guess is the TLDW is that the laws are good because islam is true.
موضوع مهم أتمنى لو كانت تطبق في بلداننا و لكن الأساس فاسد لايمت للدّين بصلة و القوانين فرنسية باستثناء قوانين الأحوال الشخصية التي يتم تغيرها الآن للتناسب لتنال قبول الغرب ، لإنه للأسف أصبح التطاول على الدّين مقرفاً و السب على الله و الإسائة للأنبياء ، فعندما يتطاول السفهاء تجد الذين هم مسلمين بالهوية يسايرونهم و يضحكون فلا تعلم هل هم مسلمون أم منافقون أم كفار و بعض المسلمين السذج يظنون بأن الإسائة للدّين و التمرد عليه هو انفتاح فلا بد كل فترة أن تسمع من يستهزء بالدّين أو يسب الله عندما يغضب ، لو أن الحكم يطبق لكان الناس لزموا حدودهم كما قطع يد السارق تكون عقوبة تأديبية لغيره و بالأساس فهي ستطبق عن طريق الدولة فلا ضرر من تطبيقها و لكن ليس غريباً الجهل في الدّين الخطباء يتقيدون بما تمليه عليهم الدولة ، فعندما تريد الدولة تشويه الشريعة الإسلامية فكيف ستسمح بالتوعية و رد الشبهات
لدي سؤال هل يعجبك ان تعيشي في دولة اسلامية 100%بكل تعاليم رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ؟
@@isastudentabdou نعم لما لا ؟
@@sarah-xz1wcالحمدلله