The Mousy Mood
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- Опубликовано: 4 дек 2023
- Jon talks about some of the big stories in Christendom from the Roman Catholic slide toward normalizing Transgenderism and legitimizing Buddhism, to the Church of England's blessing same-sex unions, to evangelical mousiness toward positions the world finds acceptable all the while aggressively punching right. Jon reviews Kevin Deyoung's article on "The Moscow Mood" and Josh Buice from G3's argument with Josh Abbotoy from American Reformer on Christian Nationalism.
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#christiannationalism #moscowmood #kevindeyoung #dougwilson 
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As someone who moved to Moscow 2.5 years ago, I can say a couple things: 1) I moved my family here partly because the shepherds around us in our former location would not protect us from the wolves, and the sheperds here certainly would. 2) What DeYoung deems "the Moscow Mood" is hardly ever seen from the inside of Moscow. What *is* seen locally is an amazing community of Godly people trying to live out their faith in obedience.
Thanks for saying this. As someone who admires the "Moscow mood", this is what it seems like from afar. It also seems like there should be a distinction between Canon Press, a media production company, and Christ Church, a local body of believers. Every sermon I've listened to from Christ Church is biblical and faithful to the text. Do you think people are getting these two things confused?
@@dmeek20 It's easy to conflate the various ministries (Christ Church, Canon Press, New Saint Andrews College, Logos School, Cross Politic, etc) and see them all as one. But there are significant differences between them all, and Doug has various involvement with them. NSA is directly connected to Christ Church, whereas Logos is not (though Christ Church meets in the Logos gym every Sunday for services, and Doug serves on the board of both). Cross Politic and Canon Press are privately owned businesses, which Doug has no control over, though there are close ties (Doug's son Nate is a co-owner of Canon Press, together with Aaron Rench, and Aaron's brother Gabe heads up Cross Politic).
Some people see these close connections and suspect nefarious deeds under the surface, as if Doug is sitting on a tall throne, pulling the strings of them all. I honestly don't see that.
Rather, what you have is a lot of like-minded people together in a small town, going the same direction with the same goals, but each having their own sphere of influence and authority. Beyond the big examples provided, there are probably hundreds of smaller businesses in the community run by Christ Church members. For example, I own my own business and share office space with Cross Politic; our family dentist is an elder at Christ Church; our family doctor is a member at Christ Church, as is his boss; my attorney is a "kirker;" my insurance agent graduated from NSA; my wife works at Logos, where my six kids attend school; and on and on it goes.
If I had to characterize the day-to-day experience of someone in the community, it would include Christian schooling, Sunday worship, Sabbath dinners, catechism classes, prayer meetings, helping people move, lots and lots of hospitality, football games, block parties, concerts, hymn sings, ... all done with with joyful gratitude and Christ at the center (and NONE of it done with snark and satiric bite).
@@dmeek20 Isn't Canon Press just a beard for Doug Wilson's projects and books?
I don't understand why it is necessary to move to Moscow in order to be "protected" from the wolves. Why can't people make a stand where they are instead of running for the hills. Safety in numbers? How is Doug and Co. going to protect you? And from what?
@@RecalledtoLife my point is that it is not Christ Church. It is not a local body of believers. It is not Doug's pastoral ministry. Canon Press is a media production company, for the admonition and encouragement of the Church global. So what I'm getting at is that there's a difference between shepherding your local flock, and taking the fight to the culture at large. Look at how Jesus spoke and expounded upon His teaching to His disciples vs. the rhetorical sword He used against the culture.
A pastor has to guard his flock from wolves, but that doesn't mean he can't also help provide resources for other pastors who are trying to guard their flocks.
Guys like DeYoung have a habit of "handshaking to their left" and "punching to their right". I'm really starting to lose patience with Big Eva types who won't let their Yes be Yes and their No be No.
Non-believers don’t need a label in order to hate Christians. Whether you use the label or not…whether you agree with post-mil or not… it’s just an excuse. There will be another reason right on its heels. I agree. So sad.
Good to have you back! Looking forward to seeing/hearing about all that you’re working on.
Thank you, Jon, for your insight. I always gain understanding by listening to you! Looking forward to what's coming. Blessings to you!
One thing DW noted in his response yesterday I found particularly interesting: a lot more people than usual simply weren't having it this time. And really that just loops back to the probable impetus for the article (and basically everything else you're talking about in this video) in the first place: the Regime is losing ground and rapidly with the man in the pew.
People are *finally* getting tired of the emperor traipsing about in the nude.
@@earlofbroadst Thanks. Now I can't get the picture of Doug in the nude out of my head.
😆
@@RecalledtoLife actually Russell Moore is the Emperor of BigEva now that Tim Keller is dead. He does give up some IQ points to his predecessor.
@@conceptualclarity Now I have two pictures I can't get out of my head. Thanks.
Hey Jon way back in the day Ted Turner claimed to be a conservative politically , he had a plaque on his desk that said “ Either lead , follow or get out of the way” This is what comes to mind in this whole exchange , thank you so much for your honesty. God bless
Thank you Jon. Anyone who is associated with and supportive of ERLC or TGC isn’t worth my time. I wonder what DeYoung thought of John MacArthur for opening Grace Community Church after seeing the truth about the whole “pandemic”.
I agree. The same can be said of Doug Wilson and the Federal Vision heretics.
@@ThomasCranmer1959 You are winning a lot of hearts with your graciousness
@@eric_eagle I would rather point you to the truth than have the praise of wicked men.
Luke 6:26
“Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.”
King James Version (KJV)
@@eric_eagle Psalm 5:4-6 (KJV 1900): For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness:
Neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight:
Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing:
The Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
@@ThomasCranmer1959 this topic has been addressed many times. I think it’s a laughable accusation especially with Wilson. I hope you self righteous keyboardwarriors get right with God.
What is the BigEva mood?!
In the last several decades we have seen the fruit of BigEva mood. I don't live in Moscow, but do see that what they endeavor to do in Moscow, even though nothing is perfect, is to show how to live out our faith in everyday life. I think I get more clarity from the project in Moscow from a distance than I've ever got from any of the so-called leaders in BigEva. As a believer I filter all things through the Word of God Berean style. I don't care for the timid and culturally-accommodating tone of BigEva with its wokeness and CRT efforts.
Great point!
You can dislike BigEva and Doug Wilson at one and the same time. I do.
@@RecalledtoLife You indeed are free to do that in accordance to your reasons.
And you are rightly so to not care about something that goes against the truth.
For the Francis Catholic Church to put the extraordinary healing ministry of Jesus down on the same level with Buddha is a tremendous blasphemy
Yes your work must go on......
Thanks for the practical clarity Jon. The metaphor about the “fire” is more than helpful, but I’m afraid the fragmentation that’s in motion in the churches is beyond help. The nation is under judgment and it’s being reflected in the churches…
Agreed 💯 it is sad 😢 but also warned by The Word 📖 God bless ✝️
I have a feeling the fragmentation isn't a bad thing. It's a separating of wheat and tares.
May God Bless your work!
Jon, you are right. There is a fire in this country, and our brothers in Christ are arguing about whose bucket is better to put the fire out.
It's so ridiculous!
Some have buckets without water in them.🥸
@@mikeyonce2323Because they are on the fence, just playing the part as if they are helping put the fire out.
It is overly generous to assume that big Eva even has any desire to put the fire out I think that Christianity Today and Cru much of the rest of big Eva is throwing gas on the fire rather than water. The Gospel Coalition has told Christians that they should accept that it is proper for marriage to be redefined to the preference of the homosexuals and their allies
Well they don't want to offend the people who worked really hard to start the fires. They want to put them out lovingly, with the arsonists consent and blessing.
@@MansterBear Yes, that is it.
That bit about criticizing the one carrying the bucket is SO accurate. It's an awful lot like Log/Speck, or tithing 10% of mint and cumin while neglecting the weightier matters of the Law. He bephariseed himself with this article.
Wonderful wisdom today.
Thank you Jon for speaking Truth...I know what happened to Mc Lean Bible Church. I used to attend special events when Lon Solomon was Pastor.
Me too. MBC under Dave Platt is Woke.
Is this the church near D.C.?
yes@@cat-bg3rv
@@cat-bg3rv yes McLean Virginia I believe
@@tanks1945 Just how bad is the progressive movement is in this church? I have been concerned and trying to connect dots.
Basically this was a complaint to the manager about style and winsomeness (surprise, big eva). That Doug should spend his time talking about things Kevin thinks he should talk about. Things Doug as written entire books on... then Kevin says basically "it doesn't matter if you talk about this other stuff 11 months per year".
So "you need to talk about this stuff"
"I do, I've written several books on those things..."
"Well if we ignore that, then you don't actually talk about it... and you sound mean sometimes when you do it!"
It's surprising to me. I don't listen to DeYoung, but I've heard him on panels and things at conferences and assumed he must be solid. But he seems to be at least tinged a little with the softness of big eva type.
Thank you for bringing up Federal Vision and Doug Wilson.
Great job
We visited Christ Church for Sunday services and loved it.
The Psalms singing we beautiful, the teaching was Biblical, encouraging, and solid. The sacraments were reverent, and the congregation was engaged.
Loved the sound of children present in the back of the chapel, as it is a “family service.”
⛪️ 📖
Welcome Back - I was looking forward to your review of the KDY and the Moscow Mood. Do you think there will be a conversation between KDY and DW?
Probably not. DeYoung did the "here's all my criticisms but I don't want to talk about it after I get to fire my shots" thing. I've always thought of him as reasonable, so maybe he'll change his mind. But last I heard that was his current stance.
"BLESSINGS TO YOU JON "
I loved McLean Bible under Lon Solomon's leadership. It's been downhill since he retired, first with David Platt and his woke drift, and now Mike Kelsey.
Hey man! Really appreciated that take on things - on Federal vision - ive recently read the book , it’s a bit of a shock experience, But I’ve come to find it’s an exercise in defining terms - Their truly not getting away from Orthodoxy , if anything their trying to get back to some of the language of the reformers - I’d love to chat with you some about it if your open -
🙏🤙😊
I definitely live under a rock. Never heard of DW, Kevin DeYoung, the Moscow movement ( sounds like a cult), G3 , but do know TGC ... I'll stay with my rock, Jesus.
😆👍✝️
McLean Bible is where my husband went for years and where we eventually met. Our hearts break as we see how it has changed. Mike Kelsey seemed a solid guy 15 years ago. Thank you for talking about this. 💔
You should do a video on "The Fall of Minneapolis", if you haven't discussed it. A must-see documentary.
Is the 1607 project under the abbeville institute website?
Yes
A lot of items in your podcast today. Thank you for the lines that you have drawn but more importantly for not moving those lines.
Please help. I am having trouble finding the truth script channel on RUclips. My searches are finding it. Please advise
youtube.com/@Truthscript?si=JHD4Il_fKkrXxy4L
Doug was a submariner in his young days
It is very interesting to hear him tell of his journey.
Kruger’s wife does a podcast with Jasmine Holmes (Voddie’s daughter) and Jackie Hill Perry. I have never listened but I imagine that to be part of a trio like that, you’d have to be woke.
Oh no! Is Voddie’s daughter woke?
Voddie's daughter woke? He would not be in agreement if this is the case.
Wait... Voddie Baucham's daughter... and Jackie Hill Perry?
Something isn't computing lol
Woh!
@@kaylar3197yes, very.
Thanks Jon. I view you as a thoughtful and careful person, so I would encourage you to listen to what Doug Wilson himself says about slavery and Federal Vision, and how he explains his actual viewpoints and stances vs the viewpoints that others have painted upon him. He distanced himself from FV long ago, and has spoken clearly and specifically on his viewpoints of slavery in general (i.e. an analysis of slavery in the bible) and southern slavery in particular, which he clearly condemns. He also condemns how it ended by revolution and much death in the U.S. and not through peaceful means like it did in many other places in the world.
p.s. I think you’ll find that there is much more to the women that many outside of Moscow would like to admit or advertise, as it would not fit the narrative they are trying desperately to maintain regarding Moscow. It would be very interesting, though, to have you critique/open a dialogue about things that might be legitimate differences/critiques - i.e. Adam sinning, etc. I bet Doug Wilson would be happy to engage with you or even come on your podcast.
A little long - but interesting. At bottom I think most of the DW thing is just a set of dust-ups over previous gatekeepers losing power.
I think DW resonates with men who are chafing against a heavily feminized Christian religion, but aren’t entirely sure of how to bring back danger without contrived machismo.
Leon Podles’ book The Church Impotent is a good scholarly deep dive into the history of Christianity’s tilt toward the feminine, but I doubt enough people will read it; enough to make a difference, anyway.
A modern truism is that the only thing the Right hates more than the Left is the Far Right. It is not surprising to see popular so-called Conservative evangelicals handwringing more over a bunch of homeschoolers who dare to actually Do Something (something so crazy as building a Christian community in which Christ’s lordship is not cordoned off to a religious reservation) - than over a world that is frothing at the mouth in its enthusiasm to evangelize sleepy Christians and their kids with all manner of satanic dogma.
Goodness🙄In Acts believers were disparagingly called Christians. A few years ago we were called Christian fundamentalists, but today we are called Christian nationalists. What does Josh expect the world to call us? Does he really care that much what they call us? If so, then it is clear he is heading down the woke road. If his name gets out into main stream public media, he can be sure he will be called a CN. Sigh...
God gave us the gift of American freedom, so we should protect this gift using the gifts that God has given us ........ We should be thankful for the gift of participatory government........ Some countries don't have this...... If you are born in America you are born with an automatic part-time job to take care of this country stay informed And participate in basic civic duties And participate in basic civic duties.. .. If you ignore your government responsibilities someone else will do it for you and you probably won't like it....... Politics only becomes dirty when you let the dirty people take it over.....
Maybe the Moscow men were singing sea shanties because Doug Wilson served in the Navy? I had only heard of their hymn sing during the pandemic getting them arrested.
The Catholic/Buddhist stuff is primarily driven by the writings of Trappist monk Thomas Merton, who in the last few years of his life started heading east in his thinking, and his fans have taken his thoughts and run further than Merton intended. Hans Kung is also a driving voice in mixing Catholicism with other world religions.
I saw a documentary on Merton. Merton was accidentally (maybe?) electrocuted when he attended an interfaith conference in Asia & allegedly his own abbott reacted that the timing might have been a blessing since Merton seemed to be wandering close to syncreticism - which seems harsh
@@sgabig I've read many of Merton's books and essays, in his later days, he started heading into Vatican 2 crazy liberalism with global one world religion thinking. He did not go as far as Hans Kung did, but he was heading in the same direction.
There may have been a woman over the board at Southeastern when you were there because the chairman of the Board of Trustees who signed my doctoral degree in 2019 was Rebecca Gardner. Southeastern changed a lot in the 30 years since I started in the master of divinity program.
Well, guess AD's hope that KDY was one of the "good guys" hasn't turned out to well.
He judged DW on his fun videos, not on any of the many preaching videos, or books he has written, indeed seems unaware of his many books. Laziness?? or Cheap shot?? Young seems like he has erred, perhaps sinned, against a brother.
It was either embarrassingly ignorant, or outright deception.
Doug doesn't preach personal repentance? He literally touches on that in the NQN intro video that DeYoung was critiquing.
But he qualified it with "it doesn't matter what you do the other 11 months of the year". Like, ok? Then why is your critique worth anything?
"If I filter out everything you say other than X and Y, I can complain that you never talk about Z. I know you do, but those were filtered out by my arbitrary criteria, sorry!"
Yeah - DeYoung 's attack is either ill informed or ill intentioned. Most churches host coffee klatches after services. It would be disingenuous to only focus on people eating punch & cookies 🍪 & ignoring the fact that they were in church reading the Bible ⛪ beforehand
Kevin DeYoung saying that people are moving to Idaho because of a cultural aesthetic is blatantly ignoring that the real reason is that it's still too expensive (and increasingly dangerous) to live just about anywhere else. Who is moving to Seattle or LA to start a family? It's precisely the kind of aloof thing someone who isn't hiding their sensibilities as well as they think they are would say.
Jon, your intro is getting fancy.
So, invite DW onto your podcast. He is kind and willing to engage in the conversation. He is not the wolf you portray him to be!
Very good suggestion. It is obvious that Jon does have an inaccurate picture of Pastor Doug and the Kirk. That is not a knock on Jon it is just that so much of the noise around Doug and Moscow is either false or without context.
I think that Jon would find a very capable comrade in arms in Doug and those with whom he works. I strongly suggest doing a good deal of research ahead of time in the vein of first sources (his books for example). Another great source is his discussions with James White on RUclips called "The Sweater Vest Dialogs". There is an excellent episode specifically on FV. The short version is that FV is not a single defined vein of thought but rather a diverse spectrum addressed at a conference. In part because of the ambiguity Doug no longer identifies with FV.
Having myself joined CREC I have followed his work pretty closely and Doug is generally in line with orthodox Reformed theology and is quite open about his journey from Baptistic Evangelicalism which is an interesting story in itself.
Pastor Wilson's YT series on "Reformed Basics" is a great resource at a very accessible level as well.
Pretty sure Doug has been on Jon's show before.
Yes, for the debate about concupiscence.
I haven't listened to the whole pod yet... but does he say something that implies Doug is a wolf?
I find that hard to believe since Jon is close with AD, and AD is affliated with Fight Laugh Feast. I'm sure Jon has had plenty of exposure to Doug
They can’t take away our salvation therefore we don’t really care what the world does. They will do what they do and our best bet is to try to get along until we are whisked out of here.
That seems to be the mindset
How many Theologians aren't out of touch with the Christian brother in tge pew?
Jon, where are your eyebrows?
Burned up in a propane flair complements of my meat smoker.
I like Speaker Mike Johnson but there is some truth to Carville's remarks; we experienced theonomy and it is a real danger to the Gospel. I realize Carville is not worried about the Gospel but his warning in a way is a real danger to our nation becoming a legalistic, graceless outwardly moral culture. The real fire is the corruption in people's hearts. That's what we need to address.
Too many Cornelius Fudges out there in evangelicalism (yes, that was a Harry Potter reference and not a Tolkien reference. May God have mercy on my soul...)
I find those that continue to label Doug Wilson as a false teacher pointing out Federal Vision haven't done their homework on how the whole Federal Vision discussion went down and where it most importantly has arrived for Doug Wilson and others. Doug is not afraid to go over, listen to analysis, and make up his mind on things whereas many don't do this important aspect to exploring ideas. He is always available for discussion with all peoples and handles these discussions respectfully and winsomely.One can't say this about most folks especially the Big Eva group. Then there's people still believing in dispensationalism and escaping in their rapture doctrines. I find dispensationalism even harder to seriously discuss than even Federal Vision but hey that's just me a flawed sinner. Point is the accusations always, forever and a day against Doug on Federal Vision are now kind of retarded and not bringing up all the looneytoon dispensationalist as false teachers is pretty crazy. Yet again no one wants to get left behind especially with Jesus's scriptures telling us He was sending us rapture escape pods for everyone.
Have Tim Alberta on. He's got a new book out has been doing a lot of podcast is a Christian and a child of a Presbyterian minister.
It's real easy. Just go to the archives of De Young's sermons and start reading. If you are mature in the faith according to the biblical truth of doctrine you will, at some point, stop reading and go back to the pastors you can trust. I personally considered this a sadness.
It’s hard to disregard a man (Doug Wilson) when 4-5 generations has been built to where there are no apostates let alone a single divorce in that line. That is foreign to this world by galaxies. Like paedo baptism 👀 they’re still my brothas in Christ though 😂🤙🏾🙏🏾🇦🇸
Just talk to Doug!??!!
When question marks are sandwiched between exclamation points, which one is amplifying which?
Sock puppet accounts😅 lol. Um . . . What is that??? Fake accounts?
You're getting there. What is a Christian?
I don't think you're characterizing people's reasons for leaving Protestantism for Catholicism accurately. I'm saying that as someone who has done so, and who knows others who have done likewise. It has a surprising connection to the subjects you list as problems that are more 'foundational.' That is to say, while Purgatory, Mariology, Soteriology, etc can be discussed on their own, they aren't really big problems, and the best arguments have to do with why people convert to begin with: ecclesiology.
Jon , are you pre-mil?
Only one Gospel:
The Gospel of Reconciliation.
Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom
to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself.
We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness.
If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever.
Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods).
I am very disappointed in you, Jon. Why did you delete my reply to raskolnikov6443? Another site where no one is allowed to criticize Wilson and his woeful Moscow Mojo. You need to allow dissenting opinions and get out of your Moscow echo chamber.
Doug Wilson is a Federal Visionist heretic.
You are wrong. Basing analysis on trigger words is bad mojo.
@@mkshffr4936Wilson says he is FV.
@CP-dk8oi Objective covenant. Baptismal regeneration. Defectible regeneration.
@CP-dk8oi Hocus pocus sacraments.
Here is what Doug holds to in his own words:
ruclips.net/video/ZWqW41sBdYQ/видео.htmlsi=KH0wygfOqT2UHOyE
Mr. Wilson, being endlessly sympathetic to the Confederate South while throwing explicit slurs at the unconverted for deviating from biblical norms is deeply concerning.
Mr. DeYoung, being endlessly soft toward leftists and not publicly correcting one's public mistakes, too, is worrying.
Both errors hurt Christians' credibility.
Since this video is going into depth on one side, I'm going to balance it by addressing the following:
Some Christian Nationalists are genuine in their ultimate allegiance to Christ. What we see too often, however, is Christians trying to justify their zeal for Uncle Sam or John Wayne as biblical patriotism or biblical masculinity.
The nationalistic idolatry during these last few years was sinful. (Yes, Conservative idolatries are idolatrous too.)
When we prioritize power before Christianity, we become ugly:
- Equating Christians who didnt vote Republican with nonbelievers.
- Dismissing states with predominantly leftist populations as "hopeless."
- Spotlighting cultural "wins" over winning souls.
- Not caring about how Christianity is misunderstood due to its association with Trumpism. (Treating Trumpist ideals with more zeal than for biblical standards.)
- Not taking unbelievers' doubts and worldly temptations seriously and dismissing them as indoctrination and ideology.
- Most serious: Priorizing the Bald Eagle over the Lamb. Singing hymns to America the Beautiful, ble*ding White, and Blue more readily than for the Cross.
- Identifying with the secular document of the Constitution rather than the Word. (Guilty of this myself too sometimes.)
We need to practice truth and grace. Together.
Not one over the other.
Pastor Doug is not wrong about the war between the states. People react emotionally because we have all been propagandized buy the winners of the war. His analysis has nothing to do with racism which was and is a problem on both sides.
@@mkshffr4936 I agree, and I don't even like Doug.
@@RecalledtoLifethat’s clear…..
@CP-dk8oi
Glad to see. I've ruffled some feathers! 👍 (:
@mkshffr4936
I'm in agreement with you that the Civil War wasn't all about slavery. But there is absolutely no excuse for defending chattel slavery that dehumanized African Americans.