Those 3800's can take some abuse, but need some mods to support higher horsepower builds. ZZPerformance sells a modified oil pump spring that helps keep the oil pressure up. Ring gaps are too tight from the factory and need to be opened up to support higher boost levels. Throw on an intercooler and the motors make great power. I run solid 12's with mine on pump gas and a conservative tune so I don't blow the transmission.
Love that people are working with The forgotten but not un loved 3.8 V6. The big issue here as we all know is the glass transmission. In the day when I had my MKIII VR6 Jetta(n/a highly modded cams, BVH/P&P, intake manifold, etc.)I always thought The GTP was a beast.
Richard, thanks for continuing to explore options on the 3800 engine. With how far our community has pushed them, it's fun to see some comparisons of various things at different levels.
That rising boost curve after 5000 rpm might mean you need some ported heads along with more cam. Looking forward to seeing the water or meth injection results!
Best show yet, #Rich ... Best sounding 3800 that I've ever heard, even though there was more horse power to be had. Can't wait see you break 400 horses with basically this same setup - no turbo. 💚
All these videos and the priceless info in them i love it. These other guys engines even better, and even better still you're testing using E85, water meth and mods that drop boost/charge temps but up in output its like dyno video heaven. keep em coming.
Richard, you should check out some of our Aussie builds. Quite a few 400+whp setups and even one that has cracked the 500whp mark on a gen3 m90. Even got a guy pushing close to 600whp from memory with a larger yt 2300 blower. Hit up brushworks slick sixes for their cam and ported blower. Best in Australia with our l67s
Which is better for supercharging, the series one or two vn engine, also I'm really unsure about the manifold I can use as I have a Yella Terra charger with reverse snout. Any info is much appreciated.
@@stevewarnock919 in order to supercharge the vn 3800/L27 you would need a series 1 l67 manifold from the states, the only difference between series 1 and 2 vn engines other than the intake/pcv stuff is rear main seal type and the cam and cam gear/retention, I prefer the series 2
When you get the heads off, get the guide posts machined down so you can get .600 lift in there. A cam in the 230s with .580ish lift will net some decent gains. Especially turbo.
Running 15psi using a 2.9 pulley. Had to add a intercooler and ice box. I always tell people if they race a supercharged 3800 car and lose just keep trying cause the more heat the slower they get. The second run is never as fast as the first. One hit wonder engines, atleast with the non intercooled m90. GM never shoulda let these engines leave non intercooled.
I come across these SC's about once a year at my pick and pull and always think I'm getting something crazy for the money ($50) but then I end up getting rid of them a few months later for like $80-100 since I don't have any small displacement motors
Them 3.8s are sleepers!! My brothers and I bought a gtp off the auction and we have it on a 150shot and e85 and that thing is unexpected on the streets
The thing I would really like to know is how this would affect MPG. Doing dyno work is always cool to see the results but we all know, we don't run our engines at WOT under max load all the time. Yes getting more peak HP and TQ makes us smile and maybe something else un mentionable but we need to be emissions minded, and mileage minded as well. Then there is the issue of dependability also as this video brings out. Who wants or can deal with knocking bearings and cranks out frequently. For Richard to be able to just go out and source another engine to grenade is fine for him I guess but eventually it will come when they are not so easy to find, even though they were produced along the comparison of the VW Beetle.
As always I learned a lot , one thing for certain I'm going to wrap the longtube headers on my heads , cam intake LS1 even though it is na , it will be fun to compare before & after temps , thanks Richard......
The factory cam is smog-limited. None of these cam swaps that Mr. Holdener does can survive CA's biennial smog testing. Set up an LLC and register your car in Montana! [No smog tests; all MT's smog rolls downhill to end up in Nebraska... 😁]
Since buying an l67 I’ve figured you don’t buy them for power unless you’re ready to spend more than what it would cost to just block off the pulley and run a turbo through it
My Supercharged 2004 Buick Park avenue Ultra needs 93 to 99 no ethanol blended fuel. My owners manual states that any ethanol blended gas can damage to the block and supercharger and no regular 87 as it will knock heavy.
The problem isn't the 3.8l engine its the trans. Thr transmissions are utter garbage and break like gass. Only if have a manual transmission and preferably rear wheel drive are there aftermarket options to handle the power. You do a 3.8l power upgrade you'll be blowning through transmissions every year. And are now 25 or more years old there very little options to up grade or junk yard transmissions anymore.
Hi 👋 👋 👋 👋 Richard anyway I thought the test went well. But I was wondering if you would of used a cam bushing so you could advance the cam 12 degrees. And if it is advanced to much you can go into the programming of the factory complex and adjust it. This is only an idea only. I have no idea if it would work. Oh can't wait until you do the next test on that engine thanks Ray
Richard, I watched a video awhile back and you made me see the light. It was the clone gt45 on a 302....which I bought. Towards the end you said stop worrying and do it. Well, I'm doing it. I still have questions though. My windsor already has Icon pistons, eagle rods, it's probably just getting skip white heads this time around. I plan to tear it back down and add gap. It is currently 10.5:1 if I remember correctly and I'd like to think cam choice would play a part in keeping it alive (duration, cyl pressure etc). I have two roller cams on the shelf, Recommendation? Thanks Application: 1985-2001 FORD 302 HO, 1994-1997 FORD 351W Brand: Erson Cams Cam Type: HYDRAULIC ROLLER CID: 302, 351 Duration @ .050: 226/234 Duration Advertised: 294/302 Grind Number: RH-294-2A Gross Lift: .544/.544 Lobe Center: 110 RPM Range: 3000-6700 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SKU: TFS-51403004 Trick Flow Specialties Stage 4 Track Max Hydraulic Roller Camshaft for 302/351w Ford Rough idle, strong top-end power Basic Operating RPM Range - 3,000-7,00 RPM Aftermarket intake, heads, and headers recommended 3,000-3,500 rpm stall converter, 3.90 to 4.11 gears recommended Duration @ .050" - 242°/246° Valve Lift with 1.6 Rocker - .595/.595 Lobe Separation - 110°
Water-meth tests will be awesome, I'm curious for the same reasons I still think you should reference boost from the intake manifold! Should let the turbo sing more
How aggressive of a cam can be ran while retaining streetability? Do plan on doing a test with the comp cam and compound boost? Why can a VW 4 cylinder produce 1200 hp, but this V6 only makes 1/3 at 400 hp?
Hey Richard. I was wondering if it would be possible to stroke the 3.8. Platform? When I was attending wyotech in 2013, I was really wanting to see if a gm 3.8 v6 could be stroked. We did some math and found out that with a .30 over bore. A cam and crank from a 4.3 v6 it could be possible. Then I wanted to see if it would be possible to twin turbo the engine. Let me know if you could attempt this or crunch the numbers and let me know if it's possible.
@Richard, would you be willing to try upgrading the bearings in the block that spun one? I was part of a group of dudes in high school who were really into these engines and we found the stock crank bearings to be a limiting factor. If I remember correctly, we were using Clevites.
Great video Richard! Any correlation between ignition timing and EGTs. I understand the timing was tuned for max HP, however I question if more timing (30deg+) would reduce the EGTs/glowing headers. Thank you.
If you can drop those IAT's can you throw more timing at it and drop those EGT's even further? Man, I was worried about my blower car seeing 120°F IAT but after seeing this I am quite pleased haha.
I'm curious.... I ran a series 2 1998 gtp with a ported gen 5 blower on a 2" pulley running 21psi . Upgraded valve springs , short stack intercooler, comp xp cam , ported heads throttle body, headers and cai and custom tuned ecu..... plus a fully built trans to handle the power . Can you do a similar test have pic of my build but don't know how to share it.... total animal lots of fun
@@richardholdener1727 yes, if possible.... I know a lot of the comments are old but I'm very curious on what kinda power I was actually putting down. I was running 18° timing and 42# injectors on 93 Oct.
i looked into doing this to a 3800 years ago and came to the conclusion the transmission can not handle that kind power for any length of time. the only path to fix the issue is to modify a FWD Cadillac transmission to replace the 4T65-HD transmission.
@@SupraBdub from what i understand the 4T65-HD comes with most, if not all, GM supercharged 3800 vehicles... but my point was at the end of the day you'll be spending big money to beef-up the powertrain.
A narrower LSA would build more torque at a lower RPM and fall off at higher RPM, but it’s less necessary with supercharged stuff since the boost already makes more power down low. More torque probably isn’t ideal since most applications that use this motor are FWD and most of the trans “behind” this motor don’t like the stock , let alone the extra torque of a hot rodded one. Torque tends to be the thing that kills parts; both driveline and engine. Look at his Big Bang series, where he’s stated that loading in lots of boost early likely caused the Gen 3 5.3 to fail. It’s also the reason people don’t spray nitrous at low rpm. A “150hp” shot makes 150 lb/ft at 5250 RPM, but makes 300 lb/ft at 2625 RPM.
110 would be good on it with a couple degrees of advance be a good little cam. When people know they won't be running an intercooler 215-230 favouring exhaust and 110-112 is common.
Hi Richard. do you mind if I pick your brain. you've inspired me to do a budget turbo project. I'm using a ford laser with a 1.6L Mazda ZMDE engine and an eBay T25 turbo. it has a 2" compressor outlet. most of the cheaper intercooler and piping are 2.5" , would there be a problem using a 2- 2.5" silicone adaptor and 2.5 intercooler and piping? Thank mate. Richard from Australia.
The testing for this 3800 kinda dropped off. Been almost a year now lol. The chat across some of the 3800 groups were wondering what happened. Some were expecting a lot just because the LS stuff does, but I understand that's unrealistic to
It would probably be more like the down low power gain because it is really only increasing lift not duration so probably wouldn't make as dramatic of a difference up top
Yes more power less boost equals less heat more efficiency less fuel usage more horsepower... More supercharger more camshaft... RUclips Gail Banks killing a Duramax...
@@richardholdener1727 I forget. He maxed out the stock turbo, maxed out the stock injectors, and increased the exhaust pipe size, made a lot more HP, less boost, less fuel lower egts. I've been following the series killing a Duramax. So a bigger turbo, bigger injectors more air through the intake more air through the exhaust , made a ton more power and used less fuel... Great videos 👍
Mr Holdener,I need your help .I'm trying to maximize HP with the parts I have . Need to know what heads to add to mix for total maximization. This is what I have. (Elgin - 1840p / Fast lsxr -102 , timing chain , smaller crank pully ,high vol oil pump. Headers longtube .I'm looking to match what I all ready brought to a great pair of heads. What do you recommend ? ( going in an Corvette ls1 2000 frc. Manual) Thanks again for your time 🙏.
@@bigredhelland that is correct they use the small chevy bell housing patter. So in a 4 banger or 2.8 s10 it'd be an easy swap. With my 4.3 it would need an adapter and was a reason to not use it. Ls swap the world
@@danielpeterson2843 I’m right there with ya. I just picked up a awesome blazer extreme bone stock in nice shape, 4.3. Going to ls swap it but I bought all the parts for a 3.8 like in this video for a different project that I decided to spice up and do rwd and ls swap (turbo) instead. So now I have a pile of parts to do a 400hp 3.8 that I’m sitting on.
First I disagree with lower the boost from the Supercharger reason being. 1. There are after cooler modifications that can be done this will lower your charge air Temp and lower boost pressure giving a better air charge. 2.Using just Ethanol will lower your HP numbers in itself. I would like to see a side by side comparison. 3. I have the same engine in my GRAND PRIX I am pushing 400 HP AT THE WHEELS. (399.7 to be exact). 4. Using a engine that is that worn out to run a test is like using fake numbers You need to rerun the all tests as they will not be the same unless you can control the exact conditions before the engine spun a bearing and have a engine worn as bad as the first engine. 5. When raising the boost you did not mention about tuning fuel graph. A. using Ethanol and B.Lowering and also raising the boost. For the record I am not questioning your mechanical ability just how you ran the test. As I said I know this engine very well.
@@richardholdener1727 Bare with me I am multi tasking here.I disagree with the dyno test as the engine was worn out as to spun a bearing, I disagree with lowering the boost through the larger pulley...The camshaft affect torque and HP and when max torque is achived and when max HP comes in . Also retarding and advancing affect torque and HP curves and when max boost comes in.You want as much Torque at the low end that is what gets the car going not H.P. you should know this.This engine was built for low RPM torque unless you are building it for 1/4 mile runs. keep in mind the Grand prix Best time I have seen is I 9. secs at 150 mph.And yes a turbo is being used instead of a blower. ruclips.net/video/iRgaX4rn2PE/видео.html So you want as much boost at the low end. Also if you pay attention to how the exhaust starting glowing red can be caused by a restriction in the exhaust and or running lean due to the E85 and no fuel tables apparently not being adjusted as you did not specified. E 85 HAS OXYGEN IN IT requiring a richer mixture. Also I would like to see 94 Octane fuel used on this engine with the fuel tables illustrated. Also I would like to look at the entire engine failure not just a bearing.
@@richardholdener1727 ….The tame specifications of the stock cam is like a restriction at the intake valves resulting in a higher intake manifold pressure under boost. The Comp Cam with more liberal numbers would lessen the restriction resulting in more flow past the valves and less manifold pressure while using the same ratio blower pulley. I hope that makes sense. I was sipping a Starbucks while texting and I’ve never been very good at multi-tasking.
Can you put this supercharger on a 2000 ls1 ? This motor was a corvette motor built for twin- turbos I took off the turbos because they needed new seals everything else still on the car.
Hi I have a L67 in a Fiero it’s a fully built engine. I have an inter cooler and I’m using the North Star tb. I have a 3.6 pully we did a tune I got 345 whp my tuner did not do any timing. When I got home I saw we are at 12 degrees in all rpm range. I have the hp tuner set up. I want to change the pully to the 2.8 and re tune with timing. Also I am running E85. My tuner said the IAT should be relocated from the TB to the manifold. I guess I have to drill the manifold. Is that what you did ? And do I use the North Star IAT in the manifold so I make sure I have the same values and leave the other one in the TB just unplugged ?
I would also consider adding a intercooler when you do other testing. I know that they exist as a bolt on... but the brand escapes me. I'd actually really like to see W-Methenol vs Intercooler. I would hazard a guess to say the W-Methenol would probably make more power, but the intercooler, you wouldn't have to constantly be filling it up.
The MP90 is based off a Gen3, if I recall... The GenV is an overall better design, with the larger outlet at the bottom of the V, and a more open inlet leading into the rotor pack. Even ported Gen3's didn't perform as well.
@@james10739 The Magnuson mpx is a blower rotor housing with a larger inlet and outlet than a gen 3 or gen v case however it accepts the traditional m90 rotor packs be it from a super coupe or a gtp m90. It has a typical 4 bolt flange like the Thunderbird m90 but is designed for much higher blower speeds at much less output temp.
@@dezldave961 Ive seen they boast improvements with the mpx case over even Allen's m90s gen V blower on the 4.6 mod motor kits. They usually are worth 20-30hp over a worked gen V all with less output temps. The case lists for around 450$ i think too.
@@madmod Roger that, but I don't think I'd be too impressed with a 4.6 guy spinning an M90. Heck, I've got an MP112 sitting on top of my spare 3800 waiting for a rainy day, because it works like a champ.
So am I good with my setup or should I drop pulley size on my 3800sc intercooled with zzp xp hot cam. Stock heads, 130 springs, ls7 lifters, on a 3.4 pulley the car feels great but wondering if it's a huge difference to goto a 3.2 pulley or am I staying in a good curve at 3. 4 pulley
@@richardholdener1727 ….Efficiency is always a key ingredient in the power recipe. If someone wants high boost for bragging rights, they can start by restricting the exhaust 😳.
Richard, I noticed when you showed the charts for the boost curves, and the fluid air temps, that in the chart titles it said "comp cam SC water meth base22". What was this about? I didn't hear anything in this video of the mention of water meth being used. Although in a previous video I remember hearing you wanted to test water meth injection into the blower. Was this a typo in this particular chart, or? I can't imagine charge temps ever reaching that high while spraying water methanol, unless your weren't spraying enough.
Those 3800's can take some abuse, but need some mods to support higher horsepower builds. ZZPerformance sells a modified oil pump spring that helps keep the oil pressure up. Ring gaps are too tight from the factory and need to be opened up to support higher boost levels. Throw on an intercooler and the motors make great power. I run solid 12's with mine on pump gas and a conservative tune so I don't blow the transmission.
Put that thing on e it’ll go 11s
Great point! What transmission could be used, as option? Thanks!
@@dogdue4588check out LS4 King. He is doing 4T80 swaps
@@420architecMindNDesignfact! I put my Monte SS on E85 and it consistently runs mid 11s on street tires with 18 inch wheels
@@MurdamittenGstock transmission? 😮
Love that people are working with The forgotten but not un loved 3.8 V6. The big issue here as we all know is the glass transmission. In the day when I had my MKIII VR6 Jetta(n/a highly modded cams, BVH/P&P, intake manifold, etc.)I always thought The GTP was a beast.
Richard, thanks for continuing to explore options on the 3800 engine. With how far our community has pushed them, it's fun to see some comparisons of various things at different levels.
That rising boost curve after 5000 rpm might mean you need some ported heads along with more cam. Looking forward to seeing the water or meth injection results!
Yeh when you max these blowers the boost dives down. Been there.
I’m looking forward to a bigger cam. To flatten the boost curve. If it does it without head changes it could be a great cheap easy 400 hp engine.
I think he already had installed the pkrted heads earlier but didn't see improved results with the standard cam and high boost
Best show yet, #Rich ... Best sounding 3800 that I've ever heard, even though there was more horse power to be had. Can't wait see you break 400 horses with basically this same setup - no turbo. 💚
All these videos and the priceless info in them i love it. These other guys engines even better, and even better still you're testing using E85, water meth and mods that drop boost/charge temps but up in output its like dyno video heaven. keep em coming.
Thank you for talking about these motors. They are great.
Richard, you should check out some of our Aussie builds. Quite a few 400+whp setups and even one that has cracked the 500whp mark on a gen3 m90.
Even got a guy pushing close to 600whp from memory with a larger yt 2300 blower.
Hit up brushworks slick sixes for their cam and ported blower. Best in Australia with our l67s
500 whp seems like a lot from a gen 3 m90
@@richardholdener1727 ruclips.net/video/VBlKkk3haT8/видео.html
I got 404 whp with a gen5 setup. Never seen it in the states with a gen3. That’s what’s up
Richard,
You have got to rebuild that motor and port the blower and heads. That would be cool to see.
Facts
As a guy that messes with these in Australia, ported heads are where you'll pick up the most power, stock heads run out of na flow at 180whp
I could use some advice.
@@stevewarnock919 ask away
Which is better for supercharging, the series one or two vn engine, also I'm really unsure about the manifold I can use as I have a Yella Terra charger with reverse snout. Any info is much appreciated.
@@stevewarnock919 in order to supercharge the vn 3800/L27 you would need a series 1 l67 manifold from the states, the only difference between series 1 and 2 vn engines other than the intake/pcv stuff is rear main seal type and the cam and cam gear/retention, I prefer the series 2
Really cool video. Appreciate all of the editing, dyno of engine and how you showed how you changed the cam yourself. Keep it up!
Finally I’ve been waiting for this really hoping for a Big Bang
Oh, Richard. the Fiero and gm front wheel drive are going to love you for this...
When you get the heads off, get the guide posts machined down so you can get .600 lift in there. A cam in the 230s with .580ish lift will net some decent gains. Especially turbo.
I know this is a late ? But I always wondered what's stopping someone from turning a smaller pulley on the lathe 😅 😊
that is possible-but the snout itself limits the ID size (we had to machine the snout to fit a 2.6)
Running 15psi using a 2.9 pulley. Had to add a intercooler and ice box. I always tell people if they race a supercharged 3800 car and lose just keep trying cause the more heat the slower they get. The second run is never as fast as the first. One hit wonder engines, atleast with the non intercooled m90. GM never shoulda let these engines leave non intercooled.
I mean for any real performance probably not but I'm sure it's better than the N/A version
I come across these SC's about once a year at my pick and pull and always think I'm getting something crazy for the money ($50) but then I end up getting rid of them a few months later for like $80-100 since I don't have any small displacement motors
Be nice, to see this engine, with hand porting to heads , intake and supercharger.
Them 3.8s are sleepers!! My brothers and I bought a gtp off the auction and we have it on a 150shot and e85 and that thing is unexpected on the streets
The thing I would really like to know is how this would affect MPG. Doing dyno work is always cool to see the results but we all know, we don't run our engines at WOT under max load all the time. Yes getting more peak HP and TQ makes us smile and maybe something else un mentionable but we need to be emissions minded, and mileage minded as well. Then there is the issue of dependability also as this video brings out. Who wants or can deal with knocking bearings and cranks out frequently. For Richard to be able to just go out and source another engine to grenade is fine for him I guess but eventually it will come when they are not so easy to find, even though they were produced along the comparison of the VW Beetle.
how you drive changes MPG
As always I learned a lot , one thing for certain I'm going to wrap the longtube headers on my heads , cam intake LS1 even though it is na , it will be fun to compare before & after temps , thanks Richard......
Mace Engineering makes a stroker kit for the L32/L67. It would be interesting to see how that does. Increases displacement to 4.2L.
I wasn't expecting such a great increase in power with just a cam swap, especially one with only 210/220 duration. The factory cam must really stink.
The factory cam is smog-limited. None of these cam swaps that Mr. Holdener does can survive CA's biennial smog testing. Set up an LLC and register your car in Montana! [No smog tests; all MT's smog rolls downhill to end up in Nebraska... 😁]
Yes they do! I am running the ZZP XP cam which is a 212/224 cam that makes great power. They also sell a non intercooled cam which is a 220/230.
@@nunyabidniz2868 sorry, but not true. My car passed with the smaller ZZP VS cam (206/216) and actually did better with the ZZP XP cam (212/224).
more duration doesn't necessarily equate to more pollution if efficiency is increased.
You have to remember other mods were done first so the cam is helping the smaller pulley and headers do their job better too.
Since buying an l67 I’ve figured you don’t buy them for power unless you’re ready to spend more than what it would cost to just block off the pulley and run a turbo through it
I want a racing cup where everyone puts these in some crazy f1 looking kit cars
Definitely excited to see the water meth testing 👍
Ya that always seems like a good idea for a roots blower especially if not intercooled
I bought that same valve compressor tool about 20 yrs ago
My Supercharged 2004 Buick Park avenue Ultra needs 93 to 99 no ethanol blended fuel. My owners manual states that any ethanol blended gas can damage to the block and supercharger and no regular 87 as it will knock heavy.
e85 will not hurt your block or blower (fuel in injected after the blower)
The problem isn't the 3.8l engine its the trans. Thr transmissions are utter garbage and break like gass. Only if have a manual transmission and preferably rear wheel drive are there aftermarket options to handle the power.
You do a 3.8l power upgrade you'll be blowning through transmissions every year. And are now 25 or more years old there very little options to up grade or junk yard transmissions anymore.
Hi 👋 👋 👋 👋 Richard anyway I thought the test went well. But I was wondering if you would of used a cam bushing so you could advance the cam 12 degrees. And if it is advanced to much you can go into the programming of the factory complex and adjust it. This is only an idea only. I have no idea if it would work. Oh can't wait until you do the next test on that engine thanks Ray
WE DON'T USE A FACTORY ECU-12 DEGREES ADVANCE WOULD BE ALOT
any suggestions for a non-boosted 3800? loved the video!!
CAM, PORTED HEADS
thank you so much!!!! you're the greatest!!!!
😆 I have jaws on the TV but I open my phone to richard with that shirt
You know it's going to be a baby cam when the heads don't come off a 3800 hahaha.
Sounds like cheap fun to me! Wrecking yards are full of these engines and can be had for a song and dance.
great vid no fault on that , shows the useral a mild cam and longtube headers goes a long way ;)
Richard, I watched a video awhile back and you made me see the light. It was the clone gt45 on a 302....which I bought. Towards the end you said stop worrying and do it. Well, I'm doing it. I still have questions though. My windsor already has Icon pistons, eagle rods, it's probably just getting skip white heads this time around. I plan to tear it back down and add gap. It is currently 10.5:1 if I remember correctly and I'd like to think cam choice would play a part in keeping it alive (duration, cyl pressure etc). I have two roller cams on the shelf, Recommendation? Thanks
Application: 1985-2001 FORD 302 HO, 1994-1997 FORD 351W
Brand: Erson Cams
Cam Type: HYDRAULIC ROLLER
CID: 302, 351
Duration @ .050: 226/234
Duration Advertised: 294/302
Grind Number: RH-294-2A
Gross Lift: .544/.544
Lobe Center: 110
RPM Range: 3000-6700
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SKU: TFS-51403004
Trick Flow Specialties Stage 4 Track Max Hydraulic Roller Camshaft for 302/351w Ford
Rough idle, strong top-end power
Basic Operating RPM Range - 3,000-7,00 RPM
Aftermarket intake, heads, and headers recommended
3,000-3,500 rpm stall converter, 3.90 to 4.11 gears recommended
Duration @ .050" - 242°/246°
Valve Lift with 1.6 Rocker - .595/.595
Lobe Separation - 110°
SMALL CAM
Richard -very cool t-shirt
You got to get here quick when the vid drops if you wanna be #1.
Can you do a test on a stock S/C 3800 with the rocker arm upgrade?
Water-meth tests will be awesome, I'm curious for the same reasons
I still think you should reference boost from the intake manifold! Should let the turbo sing more
How aggressive of a cam can be ran while retaining streetability? Do plan on doing a test with the comp cam and compound boost? Why can a VW 4 cylinder produce 1200 hp, but this V6 only makes 1/3 at 400 hp?
what vw makes 1200 hp?
Omg! I... I.. just dont know what to say!!? - back to drooling!.
Love the shirt Richard!
BA DUM
Hey Richard. I was wondering if it would be possible to stroke the 3.8. Platform? When I was attending wyotech in 2013, I was really wanting to see if a gm 3.8 v6 could be stroked. We did some math and found out that with a .30 over bore. A cam and crank from a 4.3 v6 it could be possible. Then I wanted to see if it would be possible to twin turbo the engine. Let me know if you could attempt this or crunch the numbers and let me know if it's possible.
You can get stroker kits, yes. For street duty they are great but if you want horses stock stroke and bore are best with more rpm and better rods.
I'm happy with this . Great engine .
@Richard, would you be willing to try upgrading the bearings in the block that spun one? I was part of a group of dudes in high school who were really into these engines and we found the stock crank bearings to be a limiting factor. If I remember correctly, we were using Clevites.
(Clevites being the ones that held up to abuse)
Great video Richard! Any correlation between ignition timing and EGTs. I understand the timing was tuned for max HP, however I question if more timing (30deg+) would reduce the EGTs/glowing headers. Thank you.
USUALLY IT DOES DECREASE EGT WITH MORE TIMING BUT 30 DEGREES UNDER BOOST IS NOT GOOD
This is all good information for me. I need to know this.
I'd like to see you put all that supercharger kit on a na 3800 and see their max potential
Be the same results as long as the N/A engine had the same heads as the supercharged version which it probably doesn't
That comp cam is similar to the BTR torque cam. It should have been installed factory.
If you can drop those IAT's can you throw more timing at it and drop those EGT's even further? Man, I was worried about my blower car seeing 120°F IAT but after seeing this I am quite pleased haha.
Would love to see a test of a w2a intercooler.
3800 series best motor ❤
Need to do one of these videos with the ford 4.2l v6
I'm curious.... I ran a series 2 1998 gtp with a ported gen 5 blower on a 2" pulley running 21psi . Upgraded valve springs , short stack intercooler, comp xp cam , ported heads throttle body, headers and cai and custom tuned ecu..... plus a fully built trans to handle the power . Can you do a similar test have pic of my build but don't know how to share it.... total animal lots of fun
are you asking if I can dyno test your motor combo?
@@richardholdener1727 yes, if possible.... I know a lot of the comments are old but I'm very curious on what kinda power I was actually putting down. I was running 18° timing and 42# injectors on 93 Oct.
i looked into doing this to a 3800 years ago and came to the conclusion the transmission can not handle that kind power for any length of time. the only path to fix the issue is to modify a FWD Cadillac transmission to replace the 4T65-HD transmission.
You can get the 4t65hd built also.
@@SupraBdub from what i understand the 4T65-HD comes with most, if not all, GM supercharged 3800 vehicles... but my point was at the end of the day you'll be spending big money to beef-up the powertrain.
I would love to see those same cam specs on a 110-112 maybe a touch more duration
A narrower LSA would build more torque at a lower RPM and fall off at higher RPM, but it’s less necessary with supercharged stuff since the boost already makes more power down low. More torque probably isn’t ideal since most applications that use this motor are FWD and most of the trans “behind” this motor don’t like the stock , let alone the extra torque of a hot rodded one. Torque tends to be the thing that kills parts; both driveline and engine. Look at his Big Bang series, where he’s stated that loading in lots of boost early likely caused the Gen 3 5.3 to fail. It’s also the reason people don’t spray nitrous at low rpm. A “150hp” shot makes 150 lb/ft at 5250 RPM, but makes 300 lb/ft at 2625 RPM.
@@stlchucko I just think a 115 is too wide especially with suck little duration. I don’t think a 110 would give anything up down low
110 would be good on it with a couple degrees of advance be a good little cam. When people know they won't be running an intercooler 215-230 favouring exhaust and 110-112 is common.
These engines are good gm should have just built them up with more power. From factory
Richard you need to do a Ford 3.8 supercharged v6 from the thunderbird sc vs gm 3.8 supercharged v6
The fords head gaskets won't hold up. The 3800's never see hg issues
@@brysonshires9742 they hold up just fine if you put in good ones. Felpro MLS is what I use on Ford 3.8l. 50,000+ miles @ 300rwhp.
@@rancherlee you've got a good point. But you can bulletproof 6.4 power strokes too
Why did they ditch the turbo for the sc, since the latter has no ic. Sc's more $$$ I'd imagine too
What’s the biggest blower you can swap onto those motors?
Guys have done m112s.
This needs to go into the Nova
Howdy Richard. Not supercharged, or turboed. What extreme cam upgrade would you recommend? Thanks!
lots of mild shelf cams avail
@richardholdener1727 thank you Richard, really appreciate it! Luv your show!!!
I see the problem, you are missing two pipes on your headers, wait, heck, you completely missing two cylinders! Haha!!
One of these in a chevette would be fun
what should ring gap be with 14psi boost? plz
.0065 per 1 inch of bore
Hi Richard. do you mind if I pick your brain. you've inspired me to do a budget turbo project. I'm using a ford laser with a 1.6L Mazda ZMDE engine and an eBay T25 turbo. it has a 2" compressor outlet. most of the cheaper intercooler and piping are 2.5" , would there be a problem using a 2- 2.5" silicone adaptor and 2.5 intercooler and piping? Thank mate. Richard from Australia.
WE DO IT ALL THE TIME-IT WILL WORK
Excited for the water meth testing
The testing for this 3800 kinda dropped off. Been almost a year now lol. The chat across some of the 3800 groups were wondering what happened. Some were expecting a lot just because the LS stuff does, but I understand that's unrealistic to
Yokes. 1437f is cooking. I get out of it at 1350 on my diesel and it's iron headed.
@ Richard Holdener/ what is the L32/L67 mean. What if you even the number 67/67
engine designations by the factory-early and late sc 3800
Egts are just a number
Great video would like to see the gains of 1.9 rockers on stock cam if would get you 20hp gain as cam gets you 40hp ?
It would probably be more like the down low power gain because it is really only increasing lift not duration so probably wouldn't make as dramatic of a difference up top
Love thisss!! 🤘🏻🤘🏻🤘🏻
Could you run LS rockers on the 3800? If I’m right the LS has a better ratio like 1.6 rather than 1.5
Yes more power less boost equals less heat more efficiency less fuel usage more horsepower...
More supercharger more camshaft...
RUclips Gail Banks killing a Duramax...
I know Gail, but what cam did he use in DuraMax?
@@richardholdener1727 I forget.
He maxed out the stock turbo, maxed out the stock injectors, and increased the exhaust pipe size, made a lot more HP, less boost, less fuel lower egts.
I've been following the series killing a Duramax.
So a bigger turbo, bigger injectors more air through the intake more air through the exhaust , made a ton more power and used less fuel...
Great videos 👍
@@richardholdener1727 killing a Duramax part 15..
GALE, I think ? 🤔
Mr Holdener,I need your help .I'm trying to maximize HP with the parts I have . Need to know what heads to add to mix for total maximization. This is what I have. (Elgin - 1840p / Fast lsxr -102 , timing chain , smaller crank pully ,high vol oil pump. Headers longtube .I'm looking to match what I all ready brought to a great pair of heads. What do you recommend ? ( going in an Corvette ls1 2000 frc. Manual) Thanks again for your time 🙏.
PORTED 243 HEADS OR AFR OR TFS
I have the bottom port and m90 supercharger my 3800 is a n/a do i need the supercharged heads with pcm or just heads
I never knew these were pushrod
How much does l32 supercharger on l67 (240hp) add?
What did blowing boost through that charger do id like to see boost gauges in diffent spots like before and after the blower
with the turbo? The turbo supplies 7 psi and this gets multiplied by the blower
I was interested in these motors a few years back for an s10 swap. Went ls
Don’t these use a different bell housing pattern than the LS or 4.3? Or did yours have the 4cyl?
@@bigredhelland that is correct they use the small chevy bell housing patter. So in a 4 banger or 2.8 s10 it'd be an easy swap. With my 4.3 it would need an adapter and was a reason to not use it. Ls swap the world
@@danielpeterson2843 I’m right there with ya. I just picked up a awesome blazer extreme bone stock in nice shape, 4.3. Going to ls swap it but I bought all the parts for a 3.8 like in this video for a different project that I decided to spice up and do rwd and ls swap (turbo) instead. So now I have a pile of parts to do a 400hp 3.8 that I’m sitting on.
@@bigredhelland mines actually a 92 Olds bravada, same thing but I'm about to pull the lm7 out and drop in an lq9
aren't these 3800 motors configured as front wheel drive? Can you use these on a RWD car?
yes-they cam na in rwd camaros
They are used in rwd commodores aswell
I wonder if you could put this supercharger one the 292?
Why not run f-body headers??
First I disagree with lower the boost from the Supercharger reason being.
1. There are after cooler modifications
that can be done this will lower your charge air Temp and lower boost pressure giving a better air charge.
2.Using just Ethanol will lower your HP numbers in itself. I would like to see a side by side comparison.
3. I have the same engine in my GRAND PRIX I am pushing 400 HP AT THE WHEELS. (399.7 to be exact).
4. Using a engine that is that worn out to run a test is like using fake numbers You need to rerun the all tests as they will not be the same unless you can control the exact conditions before the engine spun a bearing and have a engine worn as bad as the first engine.
5. When raising the boost you did not mention about tuning fuel graph.
A. using Ethanol and B.Lowering and also raising the boost.
For the record I am not questioning your mechanical ability just how you ran the test.
As I said I know this engine very well.
you disagree that adding a cam will lower the boost?
@@richardholdener1727 Bare with me I am multi tasking here.I disagree with the dyno test as the engine was worn out as to spun a bearing, I disagree with lowering the boost through the larger pulley...The camshaft affect torque and HP and when max torque is achived and when max HP comes in . Also retarding and advancing affect torque and HP curves and when max boost comes in.You want as much Torque at the low end that is what gets the car going not H.P. you should know this.This engine was built for low RPM torque unless you are building it for 1/4 mile runs. keep in mind the Grand prix Best time I have seen is I 9. secs at 150 mph.And yes a turbo is being used instead of a blower.
ruclips.net/video/iRgaX4rn2PE/видео.html
So you want as much boost at the low end.
Also if you pay attention to how the exhaust starting glowing red can be caused by a restriction in the exhaust and or running lean due to the E85 and no fuel tables apparently not being adjusted as you did not specified. E 85 HAS OXYGEN IN IT requiring a richer mixture. Also I would like to see 94 Octane fuel used on this engine with the fuel tables illustrated.
Also I would like to look at the entire engine failure not just a bearing.
@@richardholdener1727 ….The tame specifications of the stock cam is like a restriction at the intake valves resulting in a higher intake manifold pressure under boost. The Comp Cam with more liberal numbers would lessen the restriction resulting in more flow past the valves and less manifold pressure while using the same ratio blower pulley.
I hope that makes sense. I was sipping a Starbucks while texting and I’ve never been very good at multi-tasking.
Can you put this supercharger on a 2000 ls1 ? This motor was a corvette motor built for twin- turbos I took off the turbos because they needed new seals everything else still on the car.
it is too small
Thanks Richard
Hi I have a L67 in a Fiero it’s a fully built engine. I have an inter cooler and I’m using the North Star tb. I have a 3.6 pully we did a tune I got 345 whp my tuner did not do any timing. When I got home I saw we are at 12 degrees in all rpm range. I have the hp tuner set up. I want to change the pully to the 2.8 and re tune with timing. Also I am running E85. My tuner said the IAT should be relocated from the TB to the manifold. I guess I have to drill the manifold. Is that what you did ? And do I use the North Star IAT in the manifold so I make sure I have the same values and leave the other one in the TB just unplugged ?
I ran it with a Holley ECU-not a stock ECU-I didn't use the IAT sensor-345 whp with a 3.6 pulley and 12 degrees of timing? Something doesn't add up!
@@richardholdener1727 I’m sorry I was wrong it’s a 3.2 pulley
I am thinking of going 2.8 do you think that’s to low
I would also consider adding a intercooler when you do other testing. I know that they exist as a bolt on... but the brand escapes me. I'd actually really like to see W-Methenol vs Intercooler. I would hazard a guess to say the W-Methenol would probably make more power, but the intercooler, you wouldn't have to constantly be filling it up.
intercooler vs wm=intercooler ftw!
@@richardholdener1727 ….Absolutely !!!
Richard get mr brian tooley to send you a truck norris cam pronto! id love to see how it does in a 4.8 especially
Im tempted to pick up a MP extreme m90 case. They are so affordable and should be worth good power over a stock gen3 case.
What is that extreme I mean obviously it's a supercharger but why did they come on
The MP90 is based off a Gen3, if I recall... The GenV is an overall better design, with the larger outlet at the bottom of the V, and a more open inlet leading into the rotor pack. Even ported Gen3's didn't perform as well.
@@james10739 The Magnuson mpx is a blower rotor housing with a larger inlet and outlet than a gen 3 or gen v case however it accepts the traditional m90 rotor packs be it from a super coupe or a gtp m90. It has a typical 4 bolt flange like the Thunderbird m90 but is designed for much higher blower speeds at much less output temp.
@@dezldave961 Ive seen they boast improvements with the mpx case over even Allen's m90s gen V blower on the 4.6 mod motor kits. They usually are worth 20-30hp over a worked gen V all with less output temps. The case lists for around 450$ i think too.
@@madmod Roger that, but I don't think I'd be too impressed with a 4.6 guy spinning an M90. Heck, I've got an MP112 sitting on top of my spare 3800 waiting for a rainy day, because it works like a champ.
Why not do some new bearings and rings, with a dinglebary hone, to a good junkyard motor.
So am I good with my setup or should I drop pulley size on my 3800sc intercooled with zzp xp hot cam. Stock heads, 130 springs, ls7 lifters, on a 3.4 pulley the car feels great but wondering if it's a huge difference to goto a 3.2 pulley or am I staying in a good curve at 3. 4 pulley
add e85 and boost
can i put a 3800 supercharged series 3 motor in my 3800 series 2 non supercharged grand prix do i have to change anything
ecu and harness are likely different
I wish Richard was my neighbor, or at least a good friend
That combo would have been nice in my Buick ultra. Or my Grand Prix. Too bad it didn’t holdup
... Or an FBody Camaro.
Richard is the engine making less boost or just showing less PSIG?
the boost pressure is down because we made the NA motor more efficient
@@richardholdener1727 ….Efficiency is always a key ingredient in the power recipe. If someone wants high boost for bragging rights, they can start by restricting the exhaust 😳.
I would love to see a shootout between this and a supercharged ford 3.8 out of a supercoupe thunderbird.
Supercoupe was around 310 stock and the chevy was what 340 stock so I'd say that sums it up
@@jonathanlawson4667 what is the source of your info if you don't mind me asking?
@@christopherpentland5375 just the factory specs for both engines
@@jonathanlawson4667 but if we only wanted factory specs we would not watch this RUclips channel.
310 hp-no sir! I think you meant 210 hp, 3800 was 240 hp and the series 3 was 260 hp
Richard, lets hope that you are going to swap the supercharger for your usual GT45 turbocharger.
Let's hope he ports everything first. See wuts the most he can get with the supercharger
Richard, I noticed when you showed the charts for the boost curves, and the fluid air temps, that in the chart titles it said "comp cam SC water meth base22".
What was this about? I didn't hear anything in this video of the mention of water meth being used. Although in a previous video I remember hearing you wanted to test water meth injection into the blower. Was this a typo in this particular chart, or? I can't imagine charge temps ever reaching that high while spraying water methanol, unless your weren't spraying enough.
IT WAS JUST A TITLE FOR A DYNO RUN WE WERE PLANNING ON TESTING-IT NEVER HAPPENED
@@richardholdener1727 gotcha. Well, do the water meth test lol. I've heard these M90s do great with pre-blower spray.
@@boosted0079 He wants to. The test mule spit out a rod bearing.
@@alantrimble2881 I seen that. Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of these 3800s spin rod and main bearings over the years. It's hit and miss with them