The main focus IMO isn't extra power, but greater safety with lower charge temperatures. The extra power is a very nice bonus, though. 🙂 IMO it's worth the extra investment to better preserve the engine.
@@shadowopsairman1583 Yes, which increases power, since you have more oxygen in the same volume, which you can combine with more fuel to make more power. But I'd be installing an intercooler mainly for the extra longevity and safety. 🙂
Agreed but E85 doesn't seem to care. Pump gas needs an IC. Only 14 hp gain with the IC and all that decreased temp. Probably because that small IC core is restrictive to flow.
@@Toys4Life You may be correct- and anytime an effective IC can be used, I'd use it as a hedge against detonation, as it does do a good job of cooling the charge. I've read that too big an IC may cause a little bit more lag, but IMO, more is better than too small of an IC. If all else fails and E85 isn't a viable option, spray meth or a meth/h2o mixture. The methanal effectively raises the octane, while the misted water handles the charge cooling duties AND keeps the carbon to a minimum(and will clean a dirty combustion chamber). I've never seen anyone use E85 AND spray meth/alcohol at the same time tho, as I'd assume it's due to diminishing returns, although I'm not 100% certain about that. E85 is not convenient for all of us, but spraying meth is an easy, and likely less expensive alternative, regarding the setup of both.
Would be very interesting to see if the intercooler would have a much larger effect on power in a pump gas stock cam configuration, great testing as always
The gains would be even more pronounced. On 3800s be usually either do intercooler or e85. Not usually both. And end up around the same numbers with a cam.
Intercooler is not only a little boost in horsepower but is dramatically a horsepower saver from the heat, great testing. Testing separates fact from myths thanks for your hard work.
This makes me want to get back into 3800 stuff. I know its a junkyard motor theme but some day id love to see a combo like I had with higher compression and worked over heads. When I first built my 3800 and had problems with the intercooler coolant loop I could tell right away when there was an air bubble in the pump. Knock city almost immediately. It was such a rewarding engine to tinker with.
Richard, love your work, keep it up. A couple comments on this video. The drop in AFR on the intercooled run wouldn't be from a misfire event, misfires cause the o2 sensor to read lean (not rich) due to the excess air (12+/- times the amount of air to fuel in this case) not consumed be the misfire event itself. You mention the AFRs being close to each other in both configurations, afrs aren't significant to the power output on a fuel injected system, unless there is an outlying misunderstood issue, for instance a poor flowing injector. Power output should remain the same from somewhere in the range of 10.8:1 all the way to low 13s. Obviously we run lower afrs for cylinder temp control. Where is the IAT sensor? Did the Meth make less power due to the a rise in intake air temp (less dense charge) traveling though the supercharger, intake manifold and intake port?
Water to air and ice in the tank makes for a great supercharged/turbo bracket racer and almost completely eliminates Altitude Density swings. I have the pump on a toggle switch and flip on the pump between the burnout and staging to conserve the ice.
Consistent 100 degree difference! 15hp gain overall, but once the non-intercooled supercharger heat soaks, IAT's go up, you hit the compensation table with reduced timing losing up to 50hp makes it almost a 65hp gain theoretically. Depending on horsepower loss with maximum reduced timing.
I was happy to find out how easy it was to install ZZP new full size intercooler with the dual pass heat exchanger and also equally as happy to look at my Aeroforce scan gauge and see no KR with a 3.0 pulley when before I was getting KR with a 3.4 pulley I also swapped out the pump that came with the setup with a higher volume pump. Its a bit louder but not a deal breaker. Its the piece of mind I was looking for and the billet fuel rails look good
I recently started watching him and I CANNOT believe Richard's work ethic and obvious love for what he does- we are fortunate to have his knowledge as well as the rather extensive library he's created along the way! IDK where else you could find that- and he doesn't seem to mind answering my most basic of questions... or telling a person if something will not work either. Straight up guy for sure!
I understand this is on Dyno giving the ideal perfect environment. However, water/air heat exchangers on these cars still have very bad heat soak. You can get 4-5 good convective pulls running a heat exchanger. Where as no heat exchanger you've really only have 1 maybe 2 if it's cold outside. In a vehicle, the coolant system for the heat exchanger is quite small so it doesn't take much to heat up the fluid. On my car, I've added small rad fans (typically found off of dirtbikes) to the front mount. These fans truly make a significant difference. I can make multiple consecutive pulls and my IAT are still reasonable.
If you're having this issue and fans make it better you're not getting any passive flow of air through the heat exchanger. The air flow offered by a cars movement at say 100kmh or 60mph is magnitudes greater than any airflow fans can provide. A common mistake people make when installing aftermarket exchangers is assuming they work with positive pressure. This in fact wrong and no amount of air ramming will fix the issue. You need a pressure differential across the core so you need the egine bay to create negative pressure. If you examine OE cars you will find there is plastic all around the radiator to separate the engine bay from the front side of the car. This creates a high pressure zone on the front side and a negative pressure zone on the back side of the radiator allowing air to flow. I would imagine your intercoolers radiator is getting postive pressure behind it and you've bainaid fixed the issue with fans.
My short stack intercooler made a huge difference….it allowed me to use a 3.4 pulley with 0 knock…..I was gonna change to a smaller pulley…..my 3.4 pulley gave me 10psi of boost. My conclusion is a intercooler itself might add a little HP, but it allows you to use upgrades, like smaller pulleys….ect.
My guess is that e85 is already taking up most of the heat, so there's no heat for the methanol to absorb. While the intercooler is making the air denser.
When I built my 427 sbc with a vortech si trim blower made 665 no intercooler 730 intercooled on pump gas. Oh and with about a 1.5 pounds less boost. Going to a YSI trim next.
The reason that it doesn't make more power with water/methanol is that you introduce water into the fuel mix. Water contains no energy and takes up room in the combustion chamber. The gain you would gain in temperature reduction is offset by introducing water into the combustion chamber. If you're not going to add an intercooler, adding water/methanol is a good idea. You get more consistency in horsepower and torque. In addition, you get the benefit of cooling the air charge and it would allow adding more timing if running pump gas rather than E-85.
@@177SCmaro - You would make more power. One problem with running straight methanol is that it is a hazardous material. That why Boost Juice or anything like it contains up to 49% methanol. Shipping hazardous material is expensive. Methanol fires can be dangerous because the flame is practically invisible and it has a very low flashpoint. It's safer and more practical to mix methanol with water.
Water suppresses flame travel speed I'd think and takes some of the heat that was pushing the piston. Richard do you do egt temps on all your dyno runs? Curious about more egt info vs intake temps ect
Richard, I honestly believe the reason why you got more horsepower with the air cooler as opposed to the water meth injection is because of Plenum volume by adding the intercooler, you added more volume to the Plenum. Therefore, you had more air available and much better much better cooled air charge.
Would you consider super/turbo with an Intercooler after the turbo, and the one after the supercharger? With temp sensors between everything. I would love to see the data on that!
Most engines most of the time spend their life just cruising. Mostly only needing boost during acceleration, or occasionally Towing or climbing. And for that gearing makes more sense. Nice thing about superchargers is they can be operated with a electric clutch. My bush plane has two superchargers with clutches feeding a stroked type 1. The superchargers are mostly only used for short takeoffs, and tricky Landings. I'd really like to see Dino runs with and without the supercharger engaged.
As far as intercoolers go. That's why I'm here. Considering using one for the 4.3 in the 75 Celica ST. And yes they are on clutches also. (2) I love the fabricate.lol But the extra horses from the intercooler would be welcome when playing hard.
GREAT VIDEO RICHARD. I LOVED IT. I THINK THE BOILS GAS LAWS WERE IN EFFECT HERE. i would like to see one double intercooled. 1 in the intake manifold and second one out side the intake manifold, cool though man .. very cool.
Just put a jdm 208 in my 02 wrx. Upgraded to STI pink inj. (565) Bigger charge pipe. Aem fuel pump and a tdo5 turbo. Looking for 300whp. Going to stick with stock intercooler.
If you look at the belt, at what's sounds like possibly 4,900 rpm, it has an unsteady vibration. It does the same slightly in a few other smaller power dips early too. I'm guessing the vibration is could be causing turbulence on air intake and possibly exhaust, leading to a sort of "blockage". Air pressure waves basically. It would be interesting to look into. An on-screen tach would be helpful in the future if possible.
L67's are fine until you start breaking stuff. Parts can be a bit pricier and harder to come by. I loved my L67, but the LS platform is just so much better supported.
@@Matp345 once you start pushing them they break. Rings touch and you chip a piston. Forged pistons have a thicker ring grooze that helps a lot, but you are limited to a few options. The ARP kits were hard to come by, not sure if they still make them. Heads lift, head gaskets blow out, etc. I races an L67 for years and it was a blast, but not cheap or easy.
I think the power gain is from the intercooler cooling the air so much and we all know cold air is more dense. So more air with tune adding more fuel and timing you get more power...The methanol was just adding octane to the air not making the air more dense
What temperature thermostat and spark plugs were you using? You guys should do more tests like these... Get a baseline With just a stock motor, and then do some of the common needed supporting changes as well like a lower temperature thermostat, and lower temperature spark plugs. Try a few different pulley sizes as well. And may be a phenolic spacer. That camshaft is not very common. And if you’re going to go big, try 2.8 inch pulley. The generation 3 heads have .030 inch larger diameter intake valves.
THE AC IS IN THE BELT LOOP, WE DON'T RUN A THERMOSTAT (THIS IS NOT A STREET CAR-IT'S DYNO), WE RAN DOWN TO A 2.6 PULLEY, i WOULD BE SURPRISED IF WE COULD MEASURE AND DIFFERENCE WITH A PHENOLIC SPACER-MAYBE IN A HEAT ENGINE BAY
Water/methanol converts the sensible heat to latent heat but also adding the volume of the vapor from from the injected liquid. The intercooler removes heat and allows for a denser charge and more mass of air into the engine resulting in more power. The water/methanol inject will lower temperatures but won't effectively add more mass of air going into the engine.
@@richardholdener1727 I was amazed at how much is cooled the charge. Also would have thought that would have resulted in a lot more HP which tells me it must have been several PSI drop in boost due to the restriction of that small intercooler core. My conclusion would be that the IC is worth it with pump gas, maybe not worth it with E85. Curious what others think?
@@Toys4Life … I was also impressed by the significant and consistent drop in temperature when using the I/C components. The psi loss across the core is minimal in most cases and shouldn’t have caused a very serious loss in power output. I also noticed how many people make a distinction between pump fuel and E85. I haven’t traveled out of the Atlanta area very much over the past couple of years so I can’t really comment on the availability of E85 in other parts of the country but locally it’s available at nearly every refueling station on every corner. Since 93 octane “pump fuel” and E85 come from the same pump, it will all be called pump fuel eventually 😁. Or so it would seem.
3:25 the 4800 to 5000 harmonic ramp is just like I've seen on the RB25 and 26. On the DOHC Nissan it's at 3700 rpm, and it's from the ignition pickup and the belt driven cam harmonics. On the 3800 V6, it's most likely from the crank shaft pulley to belt. Probably slip, Maybee from the G rotor oil pump loads. On some engines, you get fuzz from certain RPMS. Ford's 120 degree F1 during development had a pinout problem with its EECIV, which created a lash Ariel which returned an incorrect voltage to the Crank position sensor. Prox sensors can fail due to alignment issues at certain revs. Happened to my mates 1967 turbo SEFI Holley HP managed 3.3 liter Ford on line six.
Anecdote ahead: I had a similar setup (build shortblock with 9.5:1 pistons and an overdrive crank pulley)and while I could run a 2.8", it ran best on a 3". But I guess thats closer to a 2.6 with a stock crank pulley so i guess this whole reply is moot! Lol.
why does the video of the engine running on dyno sound weird? couldn't hear the vaaarooom vaaroom?...maybe its my computer speakers......... great video as always !!!
Good Video Richard. Would it possible to know following things aswell (also any other upcoming intercooler tests): Water temp IN and OUT to intercooler (along with IAT temp curve) + used pump/water GPM to understand efficiency of intercooler. Also try get video camera which is supporting 1080p or 4K :)
My guess is that water going through the supercharger is consuming a portion of the total available mass flow. Because the supercharger is driven by a fixed ratio system there is less available room/flow for additional air/mass of any kind??…compounded by the fact the water vaporizes and thus expands on its journey thru the supercharger making the situation a bit worse. A really interesting test would be to remove the intercooler and jury rig the six fuel nozzles above it, but behind the throttle plate to confirm the evaporation cooling of E85 through a blower. But perhaps as all too often, I’m barking up the wrong tree… Cheers 🍻
Personally I think having gauges is really important in any scratchy build, you spend countless hours of time to build your car and then blow it up on one weekend...if running boost, not only a boost guage on the dash but also a charge temp guage. it might let you know when it's time to let her cool down for a minute, and it definitely makes you feel even more dumb when you keep oon pushing even when you know it's too hot and blow's up 🤣🤣🤣
How about a I/c 93 vs non e85? To me the biggest gain on the I/c is like you said consistency but also being able to run pump gas especially on the street.
Would the Intercooler possibly pull heat away from the supercharger itself? Would be interesting to see the difference in the heat of the supercharger case
The water meth injection is lowering the amount of air fuel mixture by adding an inert element. Water. This is displacing air and decreasing the amount of available oxygen?
I know a air to water. Intercooler is very efficient but I have always wondered if instead of water running alcohol fuel Through it, alcohol fuel stays super cold all the time Even if it it's been sitting out on a hot day it's still cold If it was pumped from a separate reservoir down through let's say a transmission cooler Mounted in front of the radiator and then pump through the intercooler, I would imagine that would be super-efficient.
Hey Richard love your energy and ALL your content, I curious about the electronic side of the 3800SC, did you run a stand alone harness for it? And if so could you give some info on who does that harness work I'm wanting to swap a l67 or l32 in my 94 grand prix STE
I think the reason for the inconsistency and not showing the true potential of water/meth injection is due to the fact that using boost juice or any premix product, the meth content varies. Plus the positioning of the nozzle, The further away you have it to the valve the more time it has to atomise and the particles remain in suspension not clumping up into water droplets. And the best ratio of water meth to fuel is typically between 12.5% percent to 25% of total injector flow for any given load at any given RPM. For example in my Honda Civic Type R on the K20c1 engine I have for 1056 cc injectors from the factory and 1 1000cc water meth nozzle. Which works out to be about 23% water meth to Total Fuel flow capable of all the injectors combined. The nozzle is placed at least 42 inches away from the furtherest valve being at the number one cylinder there's plenty of distance for the mixture to atomise. And I typically see on average an air intake temperature of 10°c/50°f to 25°c/77°f. And this is done with a 50/50 water meth ratio. Maybe hit up Scott F Williams on the water methanol injection page on Facebook this guy has been doing it for years and is a pro at it
Hi. Just wonder what you think regarding the drop in the middle of the power curve. i assume you are still using the balance shaft because you mentioned your still using a chain tensioner.so i was thinking that the balance shaft may be sucking power at that rpm due to some sort of harmonic clash.?? maybe. is it possible for you to test a no balance shaft set up ? a few guys are doing this set up to run double row chains so i'm curious to see if it affect the motor in ways apart from balance..
The dip in Tq corresponds with the dip in A/F. I wonder what might connect the two. Spark gap too large, weak coils... ? Is this motor going into the Nova? The methanol, while decreasing intake temps, also displaces some of the air that can be mixed with fuel to make power.
I'd love to see a test of how effective charge cooling is on a methanol setup making decent power. I know the methanol guys usually don't run any charge cooling, to save weight, so I'd love to see how much power they're giving up.
i ran meth 93 octane, ported heads, 42# injectors, 1.95 yt rockers, 90 lb springs, gen 5 with 3.0 pulley and intercooled with ported lim. that blower never got hot once i sprayed meth. was able to run 21º max wot timing at 13 psi. i know of guys who ran a 2.55 pulley and the same set up as in the vid. making 16 or so psi and 28º wot timing. hes running the afr to lean for one, should be mid 11's. 12's are to lean.
@@totensiebush ill let ya know when my 5th gen camaro gets meth added. going straight meth with a alky kit. got a friend with similar mods as me making 700 wheel with meth, more boost and timing is all hes got over me. and im at 600 wheel.
Maybe the water/meth was less of a consistent mixture in terms of temp and AFR compared to just uniformly cooler air? How did thr intercooler change the boost pressure vs water/meth?
I'm looking at an old log of my twin screw 3800 running around 20psi. This frame at 6000rpm has 326f on the pre-cooled temp and 193f after cooling - still hot as hell but good improvement. I know before I put thermocouple probes in, i had melted the plastic guard on the old gm IAT sensor installed in the lower intake :o
So when you did the water/meth test on this motor and went from 190* temps to 105* temps. Why didn't you pick up similar HP/TQ? Is it because the IAT sensors data is junk when the thermistor bulbs are wetted by water/meth?
@@richardholdener1727 If that's the case the spraying pre turbo should alleviate that somewhat as its cooling the air as its being compressed and upping the efficiency of the turbo itself. Have you done any pre turbo vs post tests?
I don't know why these cars ever came without intercoolers. Every supercharged or turbo car I've ever owned had an intercooler except for my Fiero GT which has a 3800 SC GTP series 2 motor in it. I've thought about adding one but in a Fiero GT I don't know what & all it is going to take to do it. I guess I have to run the intercooler all the way to the front of the car but the only way to run piping up there is probably going along where the radiator piping is ran. 🤷
Maybe valvetrain harmonics worked itself out or maybe the header savaging isn’t optimized to cause that dip and then it pushes through it. I’m assuming you aren’t using a knock sensor.. if you are, that would be the first place I’d look at.
I'm looking for a used Gen3 cooler core to put under my charger. Thinking someone out there has put a Gen 3 in and later maybe swapped for a Gen 5 arrangement. I also have some extra Gen 3 complete chargers on hand I would turn loose of. I know everyone would like to have the latest greatest piece but the cost of these and availability is not putting them out there in excess supply #'s.
I would love to see this repeated with a bone stock , factory tuned 3800 on pump gas . How much does this add if any to a stock 3800:sc factory tuned if any ? Then the same test with mild ecu tuning but no physical tuning mods again on pump gas .
With the water meth , did it have the same mbt timing ? Other than that , it seems water meth has the same impact on hp on motors that I’ve seen as well? Possibly the water is displacing fuel that adds power , with water that does the opposite? I guess with knock ears you could possibly over come with more timing and find mbt for water /meth . ??
I'd be Interested to see how far down of pulley you can go down to before you see the efficiency of the blower fall off. I'd like to see you go all the way down to a 2.8, 2.6 and 2.4" pulley.
same. I have the parts to drop to a 2.6 on my gen 5'd l67 on e85. But i'd like to see the full data before moving forward. I'm at a 3.0/ic/e85 right now
Eaton used to have the VE tables on their website for the M90. At some point you need to port the blower and that stock throttle body is like breathing through a straw. I daily drove mine on a 2.8 pulley with all the supporting mods, anything smaller needs race gas to keep KR in check and you need a belt wrap kit.
@@GreaseMonkeyGarageTX hes running the gen 5 though, not a whole lot to port there. He also has the gen 5 throttle body which is basically the same opening as the northstar if i remember. Would be more to gain if he was still on a gen 3. I've looked at the VE charts eaton posts and even a 3.0 pulley is wayyyy off their chart. Unless i'm reading it wrong
I ran my 1.9rr, Intercooled, e85, nitrous125shot l32 down to a 2.4 pulley before before going turbo. I ran an 8 rib setup after going to a 2.6. I was also on stock cam so I only revved it out to 6000rpm.
@@sandvick1 i was actually basing my 2.6 build off of yours, to be honest. I always see people saying don't go lower that a 3.0 pulley just because "everyone" tells you not to, but no actual proof to back that up. I tend to see for myself in situations like that.
With water/methanol injection, even though the charge temperatures are the same as an I/C, the effective octane is being raised, and it changing the octane by slowing down the burn speed. The only real ways to take advantage of that are to increase the timing, increase the compression ratio, increase the boost. Since the engine was already running E-85, adding more timing probably wont help so it would probably respond better to more compression or more boost.
One thing I can tell everyone here- on my own car, which hasnt changed for a few years. When the intake air gets too cold, it "seems to be down on power, and the boost is lazy. As the intake air gets warmer it makes more power, and the boost comes up quicker. It is into "happy land" when the intake air hits 120, and no further improvements in responsiveness are seen. Power seems to start falling off (slightly) past an intake air temp of 140-160, which it only gets to after a hot re-start. I had often wondered why it seemed like that... everything I had read in the past seemed to suggest that colder air is ALWAYS better, but then I was looking at a race fuel information sheet and it said that (for that fuel) the most efficient intake air temp for that fuel was 130F. Things like that, along with the dyno test that showed only a 3.5% increase in power despite dropping the intake air temps 100 degrees(!) makes me kind of wonder if theres a point where too cold is just too cold.
@@richardholdener1727 You are right, but in the case of water and methanol, BOTH slow down the burn rate a bunch, and if you dont compensate for that in some way, you lose power, or at least dont fully take advantage of it. I've heard of guys running 27 degrees total at 30 psi or close to that on pure methanol injection.
I love watching these videos Man. Are you going to do a video where you pulley it down a little more because you put the intercooler on so we can see the power gains. I'm also interested on seeing the intercooler installed on a stock cam car with the same pulley configuration. The car will produce more boost because there is no cam. I'm interested in seeing the charge temperatures. Thank you very much for what you're doing I am 3/4 through my build and this information will let me know what to do next.
@@sg34qw you always lose boost running through an intercooler and even more adding a cam. I'm interested in seeing a stock cam car intercooled to see if it runs more boost than the cam intercooled with same pulley size
i have this same setup Richard ran but with a stock cam.. i run 11.5-12lbs of boost. maybe my teflon coating is worn, but its the same boost as richard was running.
@@sg34qw I ran 14 pounds on a 3.1 pulley, non intercooled. I would just like to see a stock cam intercooled pulling down as low as you can go without kr.
@@CBbailey im just saying you said you'd like to see what boost a stock cam would make on a intercooled 3.0 car. And im telling you what mine makes. If you made 14lbs with a 3.1 you had an exhaust restriction.
I would offer that the water sprayed into the intake is displacing air and fuel thus the resultant lack of power gain compared to the intercooler. Energy is spent converting the water into steam which then goes out the tailpipe. #MAZDA
steam does have much higher volume than water, so that should help drive the piston down. At least that is what the F1 people said when they played with water injection
@@sg34qw eh.. the reality lies somewhere in the middle. The temp probe is before the E85 is introduced. E85 DOES significantly cool the air, but not until it's going through the port and into the cylinder, where we can't exactly measure it with a temp probe. But, you can calculate it.
@@triplestangman it makes a bigger MEASURABLE difference with TBI or carb. I understand what you're talking about, I've seen high-rise blow-through E85 turbo cars with condensation on the outside of the runners. That cooling effect still happens in a port injection setup. The fuel still has to change state to burn. We just don't have a temp probe inside of the combustion chamber.
It seems that the "rule of thumb" is 1 percent increase in HP for every 10 deg cooler. Or roughly 10 percent for the 100 degF change. 400 hp x 1.10 = 440 hp with the intercooler. I wonder if the intercooler is restricting the intake.
I came across this article which uses a formula directly relating intake air temperature and hp. According to the math, I would expect at least a 33 hp gain at 6100 rpm.
I am about to reinstall my ported m90 gen 5. Before I do so, I would like to a IAT sensor in the lower intake manifold. This way I can monitor IAT post intercooler. Where would be the best location, and best sensors to use that I can view on a gauge? I see many cheap sensor gauge combos, but do not think they are FAST sensors. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
Yeah the 4T65e-hd has its weak points, but with a clean build can safely hold that power as long as you don't beat on it. Now checkout what LS4 King is doing with the 4T80, it makes more things possible.
The main focus IMO isn't extra power, but greater safety with lower charge temperatures.
The extra power is a very nice bonus, though. 🙂
IMO it's worth the extra investment to better preserve the engine.
The intercooler makes the charge denser
@@shadowopsairman1583 Yes, which increases power, since you have more oxygen in the same volume, which you can combine with more fuel to make more power.
But I'd be installing an intercooler mainly for the extra longevity and safety. 🙂
@@Roddy_Zeh or the same amount of safety with more power 🤔
Agreed but E85 doesn't seem to care. Pump gas needs an IC. Only 14 hp gain with the IC and all that decreased temp. Probably because that small IC core is restrictive to flow.
@@Toys4Life You may be correct- and anytime an effective IC can be used, I'd use it as a hedge against detonation, as it does do a good job of cooling the charge. I've read that too big an IC may cause a little bit more lag, but IMO, more is better than too small of an IC. If all else fails and E85 isn't a viable option, spray meth or a meth/h2o mixture. The methanal effectively raises the octane, while the misted water handles the charge cooling duties AND keeps the carbon to a minimum(and will clean a dirty combustion chamber). I've never seen anyone use E85 AND spray meth/alcohol at the same time tho, as I'd assume it's due to diminishing returns, although I'm not 100% certain about that. E85 is not convenient for all of us, but spraying meth is an easy, and likely less expensive alternative, regarding the setup of both.
Would be very interesting to see if the intercooler would have a much larger effect on power in a pump gas stock cam configuration, great testing as always
It would, making such a test on e85 removes half of the effect of the intercooler, since it could run close to mbt igntion even without IC.
The gains would be even more pronounced. On 3800s be usually either do intercooler or e85. Not usually both. And end up around the same numbers with a cam.
Intercooler is not only a little boost in horsepower but is dramatically a horsepower saver from the heat, great testing. Testing separates fact from myths thanks for your hard work.
The test i have been waiting for. The IAT data for adding the intercooler and no other changes is what i have been waiting for. Thank you very much
This makes me want to get back into 3800 stuff. I know its a junkyard motor theme but some day id love to see a combo like I had with higher compression and worked over heads. When I first built my 3800 and had problems with the intercooler coolant loop I could tell right away when there was an air bubble in the pump. Knock city almost immediately. It was such a rewarding engine to tinker with.
Richard, love your work, keep it up.
A couple comments on this video.
The drop in AFR on the intercooled run wouldn't be from a misfire event, misfires cause the o2 sensor to read lean (not rich) due to the excess air (12+/- times the amount of air to fuel in this case) not consumed be the misfire event itself.
You mention the AFRs being close to each other in both configurations, afrs aren't significant to the power output on a fuel injected system, unless there is an outlying misunderstood issue, for instance a poor flowing injector. Power output should remain the same from somewhere in the range of 10.8:1 all the way to low 13s. Obviously we run lower afrs for cylinder temp control.
Where is the IAT sensor? Did the Meth make less power due to the a rise in intake air temp (less dense charge) traveling though the supercharger, intake manifold and intake port?
Water to air and ice in the tank makes for a great supercharged/turbo bracket racer and almost completely eliminates Altitude Density swings. I have the pump on a toggle switch and flip on the pump between the burnout and staging to conserve the ice.
Consistent 100 degree difference!
15hp gain overall, but once the non-intercooled supercharger heat soaks, IAT's go up, you hit the compensation table with reduced timing losing up to 50hp makes it almost a 65hp gain theoretically. Depending on horsepower loss with maximum reduced timing.
Very well said
Thank you for creating videos about the 3.8l V6 L67 SC, especially with intercooler. Wow 415HP that's awesome!
I was happy to find out how easy it was to install ZZP new full size intercooler with the dual pass heat exchanger and also equally as happy to look at my Aeroforce scan gauge and see no KR with a 3.0 pulley when before I was getting KR with a 3.4 pulley I also swapped out the pump that came with the setup with a higher volume pump. Its a bit louder but not a deal breaker. Its the piece of mind I was looking for and the billet fuel rails look good
I knew Richard almost 30 years ago at Extrude Hone. He's the real deal. Still one of the hardest working, knowledgeable men in the industry.
I MISS THOSE GUYS
I recently started watching him and I CANNOT believe Richard's work ethic and obvious love for what he does- we are fortunate to have his knowledge as well as the rather extensive library he's created along the way! IDK where else you could find that- and he doesn't seem to mind answering my most basic of questions... or telling a person if something will not work either. Straight up guy for sure!
@@btchhopperou812 pretty crazy huh this guys the beezzzzkneezzz this information is detrimental to my next build
@@harryfp1494 Complicates things... just a little bit LOL!
Extrude hone does some cool stuff. Porting the unportable!
I understand this is on Dyno giving the ideal perfect environment. However, water/air heat exchangers on these cars still have very bad heat soak. You can get 4-5 good convective pulls running a heat exchanger. Where as no heat exchanger you've really only have 1 maybe 2 if it's cold outside. In a vehicle, the coolant system for the heat exchanger is quite small so it doesn't take much to heat up the fluid. On my car, I've added small rad fans (typically found off of dirtbikes) to the front mount. These fans truly make a significant difference. I can make multiple consecutive pulls and my IAT are still reasonable.
If you're having this issue and fans make it better you're not getting any passive flow of air through the heat exchanger. The air flow offered by a cars movement at say 100kmh or 60mph is magnitudes greater than any airflow fans can provide.
A common mistake people make when installing aftermarket exchangers is assuming they work with positive pressure. This in fact wrong and no amount of air ramming will fix the issue. You need a pressure differential across the core so you need the egine bay to create negative pressure. If you examine OE cars you will find there is plastic all around the radiator to separate the engine bay from the front side of the car. This creates a high pressure zone on the front side and a negative pressure zone on the back side of the radiator allowing air to flow. I would imagine your intercoolers radiator is getting postive pressure behind it and you've bainaid fixed the issue with fans.
My short stack intercooler made a huge difference….it allowed me to use a 3.4 pulley with 0 knock…..I was gonna change to a smaller pulley…..my 3.4 pulley gave me 10psi of boost.
My conclusion is a intercooler itself might add a little HP, but it allows you to use upgrades, like smaller pulleys….ect.
My guess is that e85 is already taking up most of the heat, so there's no heat for the methanol to absorb. While the intercooler is making the air denser.
E85 is helping keep the intake temperature down. I bet the intercooler would be even more effective with pump gas.
It shouldn't, on the supercharged 3800 the injectors are mounted on the intake port on the cylinder head, pretty far downstream from the blower.
i think ethanol helps with Combustion temps, not so much IATs. The injector isnt far enough up stream to effectively cool the charge
Loving it …. Much needed dyno info cuz there is not much out there … closely guarded power secrets ….
Used the same core to go 10s @3500lbs with the L67.
When I built my 427 sbc with a vortech si trim blower made 665 no intercooler 730 intercooled on pump gas. Oh and with about a 1.5 pounds less boost. Going to a YSI trim next.
Awesome testing! This is almost the same as my build I did a while back. I was curious where I was and I was spot on with the 400/400 mark.
I definitely felt the power loss after back to back runs in my old Regal GS. If only I would have had this information back then.
The reason that it doesn't make more power with water/methanol is that you introduce water into the fuel mix. Water contains no energy and takes up room in the combustion chamber. The gain you would gain in temperature reduction is offset by introducing water into the combustion chamber. If you're not going to add an intercooler, adding water/methanol is a good idea. You get more consistency in horsepower and torque. In addition, you get the benefit of cooling the air charge and it would allow adding more timing if running pump gas rather than E-85.
What would happen then if you just ran methonal and didn't mix it with water?
@@177SCmaro - You would make more power. One problem with running straight methanol is that it is a hazardous material. That why Boost Juice or anything like it contains up to 49% methanol. Shipping hazardous material is expensive. Methanol fires can be dangerous because the flame is practically invisible and it has a very low flashpoint. It's safer and more practical to mix methanol with water.
Not true about the water as it's expansion rate increases compression ratio, if you think otherwise the go tell David Vizard he's wrong also !
Water suppresses flame travel speed I'd think and takes some of the heat that was pushing the piston.
Richard do you do egt temps on all your dyno runs? Curious about more egt info vs intake temps ect
Water displaces air and fuel decreasing effective displacement as well as
Richard, I honestly believe the reason why you got more horsepower with the air cooler as opposed to the water meth injection is because of Plenum volume by adding the intercooler, you added more volume to the Plenum. Therefore, you had more air available and much better much better cooled air charge.
nope
That intercooler really pulled a ton of heat!
You attempted 1 of the 3 ways to interocool these engines. And these engines require very specific tuning. Look up Brushworks Slick Sixes.
they don't require specific tuning. The require tuning like any other motor (it's just timing an AF)
What did the boost curve do with the intercooler?
I think it dropped under the IC core due to the restrictive IC core. I think boost went UP above the IC core.
Yes, I agree! Any suggestions for brand or size?
Yellaterra for w2a
That intercooler is working real well! Wow!
Would you consider super/turbo with an Intercooler after the turbo, and the one after the supercharger? With temp sensors between everything. I would love to see the data on that!
Headers were starting to glow on that l67. Sweet
Most engines most of the time spend their life just cruising. Mostly only needing boost during acceleration, or occasionally Towing or climbing. And for that gearing makes more sense.
Nice thing about superchargers is they can be operated with a electric clutch. My bush plane has two superchargers with clutches feeding a stroked type 1. The superchargers are mostly only used for short takeoffs, and tricky Landings.
I'd really like to see Dino runs with and without the supercharger engaged.
As far as intercoolers go. That's why I'm here.
Considering using one for the 4.3 in the 75 Celica ST.
And yes they are on clutches also. (2) I love the fabricate.lol
But the extra horses from the intercooler would be welcome when playing hard.
I built one of those before zzp did for a guy in Illinois and Wisconsin. 2001ish
Love to know the differance as to why the Water Meth doesn't increase power but lowers charge temp.
GREAT VIDEO RICHARD. I LOVED IT. I THINK THE BOILS GAS LAWS WERE IN EFFECT HERE. i would like to see one double intercooled. 1 in the intake manifold and second one out side the intake manifold, cool though man .. very cool.
Just put a jdm 208 in my 02 wrx. Upgraded to STI pink inj. (565) Bigger charge pipe. Aem fuel pump and a tdo5 turbo. Looking for 300whp. Going to stick with stock intercooler.
If you look at the belt, at what's sounds like possibly 4,900 rpm, it has an unsteady vibration. It does the same slightly in a few other smaller power dips early too. I'm guessing the vibration is could be causing turbulence on air intake and possibly exhaust, leading to a sort of "blockage". Air pressure waves basically. It would be interesting to look into.
An on-screen tach would be helpful in the future if possible.
The dip i believe was the transition point of the airflow efficiency within the intake circuit
it was the dyno-its fixed
That's awesome. Definitely worth what ZZP is asking. I kinda wish I did go the l67 route for my s10.
L67's are fine until you start breaking stuff. Parts can be a bit pricier and harder to come by. I loved my L67, but the LS platform is just so much better supported.
@@GreaseMonkeyGarageTX I've seen a few higher HP 67s but never seen any issues. I've seen more problems on daily driven 67s that were neglected
@@Matp345 once you start pushing them they break. Rings touch and you chip a piston. Forged pistons have a thicker ring grooze that helps a lot, but you are limited to a few options. The ARP kits were hard to come by, not sure if they still make them. Heads lift, head gaskets blow out, etc. I races an L67 for years and it was a blast, but not cheap or easy.
It would also be interesting to see what happened to the boost...
I think the power gain is from the intercooler cooling the air so much and we all know cold air is more dense. So more air with tune adding more fuel and timing you get more power...The methanol was just adding octane to the air not making the air more dense
What temperature thermostat and spark plugs were you using?
You guys should do more tests like these...
Get a baseline With just a stock motor, and then do some of the common needed supporting changes as well like a lower temperature thermostat, and lower temperature spark plugs. Try a few different pulley sizes as well. And may be a phenolic spacer.
That camshaft is not very common. And if you’re going to go big, try 2.8 inch pulley.
The generation 3 heads have .030 inch larger diameter intake valves.
THE AC IS IN THE BELT LOOP, WE DON'T RUN A THERMOSTAT (THIS IS NOT A STREET CAR-IT'S DYNO), WE RAN DOWN TO A 2.6 PULLEY, i WOULD BE SURPRISED IF WE COULD MEASURE AND DIFFERENCE WITH A PHENOLIC SPACER-MAYBE IN A HEAT ENGINE BAY
Good stuff man. Love the 3800 content 👌
I would think the power drop is a harmonic. Maybe disconnect the balance shaft and se if that helps?
Gale Banks claims that charge cooling to add density make more power than increased boost does.
Water/methanol converts the sensible heat to latent heat but also adding the volume of the vapor from from the injected liquid. The intercooler removes heat and allows for a denser charge and more mass of air into the engine resulting in more power. The water/methanol inject will lower temperatures but won't effectively add more mass of air going into the engine.
BINGO
Great video, would be curious to know if the boost pressure dropped with the IC in service.
YES
@@richardholdener1727 I was amazed at how much is cooled the charge. Also would have thought that would have resulted in a lot more HP which tells me it must have been several PSI drop in boost due to the restriction of that small intercooler core. My conclusion would be that the IC is worth it with pump gas, maybe not worth it with E85. Curious what others think?
@@Toys4Life … I was also impressed by the significant and consistent drop in temperature when using the I/C components. The psi loss across the core is minimal in most cases and shouldn’t have caused a very serious loss in power output.
I also noticed how many people make a distinction between pump fuel and E85. I haven’t traveled out of the Atlanta area very much over the past couple of years so I can’t really comment on the availability of E85 in other parts of the country but locally it’s available at nearly every refueling station on every corner. Since 93 octane “pump fuel” and E85 come from the same pump, it will all be called pump fuel eventually 😁. Or so it would seem.
That dip is the chart is from the dyno you can hear the engine straining around that rpm on the acceleration.
3:25 the 4800 to 5000 harmonic ramp is just like I've seen on the RB25 and 26. On the DOHC Nissan it's at 3700 rpm, and it's from the ignition pickup and the belt driven cam harmonics. On the 3800 V6, it's most likely from the crank shaft pulley to belt. Probably slip, Maybee from the G rotor oil pump loads. On some engines, you get fuzz from certain RPMS. Ford's 120 degree F1 during development had a pinout problem with its EECIV, which created a lash Ariel which returned an incorrect voltage to the Crank position sensor. Prox sensors can fail due to alignment issues at certain revs. Happened to my mates 1967 turbo SEFI Holley HP managed 3.3 liter Ford on line six.
IT'S THE DYNO-WE FIGURED IT OUT
I wonder if the Audi 3.0T supercharger can be adapted to the 3.8. It has two built-in "intercoolers"
In Australia we have the L67 RWD in a few different Holden commodore/Statesman models (Vs Vx VY) etc…
I run a TBS intercooler on a roots w/14# 446" and yes it works.I also had 100* drop in IAT and gained 100hp as a result.
gained 100 hp?
@Richard Holdener yes,on the dyno 1st no water in intercooler then water minutes later and was the result.
I wished you showed the boost drop, and then added a smaller pulley to get it back to the original PSI for additional power gains.
Anecdote ahead: I had a similar setup (build shortblock with 9.5:1 pistons and an overdrive crank pulley)and while I could run a 2.8", it ran best on a 3". But I guess thats closer to a 2.6 with a stock crank pulley so i guess this whole reply is moot! Lol.
WE KNOW ADDING BOOST ADDS POWER
still dream of 3800sc swapped fiero
why does the video of the engine running on dyno sound weird? couldn't hear the vaaarooom vaaroom?...maybe its my computer speakers......... great video as always !!!
Good Video Richard. Would it possible to know following things aswell (also any other upcoming intercooler tests): Water temp IN and OUT to intercooler (along with IAT temp curve) + used pump/water GPM to understand efficiency of intercooler.
Also try get video camera which is supporting 1080p or 4K :)
SHOT ON MY PHONE, DONT HAVE A SEPERATE WATE RPUMP, JUST THE DYNO-WE REGULATE THE FLOW WITH A VALVE, WATER IN WAS 68 DEGREES
I wonder if The dip is from so much torque. Being applied to the accessory drive belt. You can see the AC compressor starts to spin at higher rpms
My guess is that water going through the supercharger is consuming a portion of the total available mass flow. Because the supercharger is driven by a fixed ratio system there is less available room/flow for additional air/mass of any kind??…compounded by the fact the water vaporizes and thus expands on its journey thru the supercharger making the situation a bit worse.
A really interesting test would be to remove the intercooler and jury rig the six fuel nozzles above it, but behind the throttle plate to confirm the evaporation cooling of E85 through a blower.
But perhaps as all too often, I’m barking up the wrong tree…
Cheers 🍻
Personally I think having gauges is really important in any scratchy build, you spend countless hours of time to build your car and then blow it up on one weekend...if running boost, not only a boost guage on the dash but also a charge temp guage. it might let you know when it's time to let her cool down for a minute, and it definitely makes you feel even more dumb when you keep oon pushing even when you know it's too hot and blow's up 🤣🤣🤣
Is there a percentage of improvement, running the E-85? Thanks.
How about a I/c 93 vs non e85?
To me the biggest gain on the I/c is like you said consistency but also being able to run pump gas especially on the street.
I'm guessing the intercooler would make this combo safe with 91/93 pump gas?
Would the Intercooler possibly pull heat away from the supercharger itself? Would be interesting to see the difference in the heat of the supercharger case
Good question, I was wondering the same??
The water meth injection is lowering the amount of air fuel mixture by adding an inert element. Water. This is displacing air and decreasing the amount of available oxygen?
I know a air to water. Intercooler is very efficient but I have always wondered if instead of water running alcohol fuel Through it, alcohol fuel stays super cold all the time Even if it it's been sitting out on a hot day it's still cold If it was pumped from a separate reservoir down through let's say a transmission cooler Mounted in front of the radiator and then pump through the intercooler, I would imagine that would be super-efficient.
never a good idea to run volatile liquid through the cooler
Hey Richard love your energy and ALL your content, I curious about the electronic side of the 3800SC, did you run a stand alone harness for it? And if so could you give some info on who does that harness work I'm wanting to swap a l67 or l32 in my 94 grand prix STE
WE USED A HOLLEY HP
I think the reason for the inconsistency and not showing the true potential of water/meth injection is due to the fact that using boost juice or any premix product, the meth content varies. Plus the positioning of the nozzle, The further away you have it to the valve the more time it has to atomise and the particles remain in suspension not clumping up into water droplets. And the best ratio of water meth to fuel is typically between 12.5% percent to 25% of total injector flow for any given load at any given RPM. For example in my Honda Civic Type R on the K20c1 engine I have for 1056 cc injectors from the factory and 1 1000cc water meth nozzle. Which works out to be about 23% water meth to Total Fuel flow capable of all the injectors combined. The nozzle is placed at least 42 inches away from the furtherest valve being at the number one cylinder there's plenty of distance for the mixture to atomise. And I typically see on average an air intake temperature of 10°c/50°f to 25°c/77°f. And this is done with a 50/50 water meth ratio. Maybe hit up Scott F Williams on the water methanol injection page on Facebook this guy has been doing it for years and is a pro at it
THE ATOMIZATION IS NOT WHY
@@richardholdener1727 I'm stumped then then what would it be🤷
@@richardholdener1727 maybe the overall methanol content? As meth has a higher rate of evaporation than water which helps evaporative cooling...
Hi. Just wonder what you think regarding the drop in the middle of the power curve. i assume you are still using the balance shaft because you mentioned your still using a chain tensioner.so i was thinking that the balance shaft may be sucking power at that rpm due to some sort of harmonic clash.?? maybe. is it possible for you to test a no balance shaft set up ? a few guys are doing this set up to run double row chains so i'm curious to see if it affect the motor in ways apart from balance..
The dip in Tq corresponds with the dip in A/F. I wonder what might connect the two. Spark gap too large, weak coils... ?
Is this motor going into the Nova?
The methanol, while decreasing intake temps, also displaces some of the air that can be mixed with fuel to make power.
the methanol/water mix not wanting to compress in the s/c lobes causing enough drag/parasitic loss to counter the cool charge temp gains?
I'd love to see a test of how effective charge cooling is on a methanol setup making decent power. I know the methanol guys usually don't run any charge cooling, to save weight, so I'd love to see how much power they're giving up.
i ran meth 93 octane, ported heads, 42# injectors, 1.95 yt rockers, 90 lb springs, gen 5 with 3.0 pulley and intercooled with ported lim. that blower never got hot once i sprayed meth. was able to run 21º max wot timing at 13 psi. i know of guys who ran a 2.55 pulley and the same set up as in the vid. making 16 or so psi and 28º wot timing. hes running the afr to lean for one, should be mid 11's. 12's are to lean.
@@scottr2898 I meant running straight methanol rather than water/meth injection, and preferably something a little more modern.
@@totensiebush ill let ya know when my 5th gen camaro gets meth added. going straight meth with a alky kit. got a friend with similar mods as me making 700 wheel with meth, more boost and timing is all hes got over me. and im at 600 wheel.
TUNERS BE LIKE
@@richardholdener1727 …. Well yes they do….
Maybe the water/meth was less of a consistent mixture in terms of temp and AFR compared to just uniformly cooler air? How did thr intercooler change the boost pressure vs water/meth?
I'm looking at an old log of my twin screw 3800 running around 20psi. This frame at 6000rpm has 326f on the pre-cooled temp and 193f after cooling - still hot as hell but good improvement. I know before I put thermocouple probes in, i had melted the plastic guard on the old gm IAT sensor installed in the lower intake :o
My dream setup was always to ditch the Gen V and go with a whipple.
I'd love a tvs rotor pack for genvm90 or some twin screw
This combo would be a ball in a GTP or Park Avenue Ultra! How much height does it add?
It's a blast and it all fits under the hood
2-2.5"
So when you did the water/meth test on this motor and went from 190* temps to 105* temps. Why didn't you pick up similar HP/TQ? Is it because the IAT sensors data is junk when the thermistor bulbs are wetted by water/meth?
OR BECAUSE THE WATER METH DID NOT INCREASE THE NUMBER OF OXYGEN MOLECULES PRESENT AND DID DISPLACE AIRFLOW
@@richardholdener1727 If that's the case the spraying pre turbo should alleviate that somewhat as its cooling the air as its being compressed and upping the efficiency of the turbo itself. Have you done any pre turbo vs post tests?
How much did your boost change Richard? Or will we be seeing that in the next test where you start to pulley up the blower?
I DIDN'T LOG IT UNFORTUNATELY, BUT IT SEEMED (VISUALLY ON THE GAUGE) TO DROP SLIGHTLY
What happens if you have a water/methonal kit but you just put methanol in it?
I don't know why these cars ever came without intercoolers. Every supercharged or turbo car I've ever owned had an intercooler except for my Fiero GT which has a 3800 SC GTP series 2 motor in it. I've thought about adding one but in a Fiero GT I don't know what & all it is going to take to do it. I guess I have to run the intercooler all the way to the front of the car but the only way to run piping up there is probably going along where the radiator piping is ran. 🤷
what are all the holes under the m90 supercharger for thank you
The dip maybe the design of the head intake ports?
Maybe valvetrain harmonics worked itself out or maybe the header savaging isn’t optimized to cause that dip and then it pushes through it. I’m assuming you aren’t using a knock sensor.. if you are, that would be the first place I’d look at.
ITS NOT KNOCK
I'm looking for a used Gen3 cooler core to put under my charger. Thinking someone out there has put a Gen 3 in and later maybe swapped for a Gen 5 arrangement. I also have some extra Gen 3 complete chargers on hand I would turn loose of. I know everyone would like to have the latest greatest piece but the cost of these and availability is not putting them out there in excess supply #'s.
Id say you made more with the intercooler because of the added volume in the intake manifold
no
@@richardholdener1727 what's your guess, I thought since it had a longer style plenum it picked up. What's your thoughts
Richard! On a carburetor, Why would you have to adjust jetting for elevation but not for blowthrough boosting?
YOU DO USUALLY HAVE TO ADJUST JETTING FOR BOOST-BUT THERE IS ALSO A BIG CHANGE IN SIGNAL WITH BOOST (WHICH DETERMINE FUEL FLOW)
I would love to see this repeated with a bone stock , factory tuned 3800 on pump gas . How much does this add if any to a stock 3800:sc factory tuned if any ?
Then the same test with mild ecu tuning but no physical tuning mods again on pump gas .
why limit what the intercooler has to offer
With the water meth , did it have the same mbt timing ? Other than that , it seems water meth has the same impact on hp on motors that I’ve seen as well?
Possibly the water is displacing fuel that adds power , with water that does the opposite?
I guess with knock ears you could possibly over come with more timing and find mbt for water /meth . ??
I'd be Interested to see how far down of pulley you can go down to before you see the efficiency of the blower fall off. I'd like to see you go all the way down to a 2.8, 2.6 and 2.4" pulley.
same. I have the parts to drop to a 2.6 on my gen 5'd l67 on e85. But i'd like to see the full data before moving forward. I'm at a 3.0/ic/e85 right now
Eaton used to have the VE tables on their website for the M90. At some point you need to port the blower and that stock throttle body is like breathing through a straw. I daily drove mine on a 2.8 pulley with all the supporting mods, anything smaller needs race gas to keep KR in check and you need a belt wrap kit.
@@GreaseMonkeyGarageTX hes running the gen 5 though, not a whole lot to port there. He also has the gen 5 throttle body which is basically the same opening as the northstar if i remember. Would be more to gain if he was still on a gen 3. I've looked at the VE charts eaton posts and even a 3.0 pulley is wayyyy off their chart. Unless i'm reading it wrong
I ran my 1.9rr, Intercooled, e85, nitrous125shot l32 down to a 2.4 pulley before before going turbo. I ran an 8 rib setup after going to a 2.6. I was also on stock cam so I only revved it out to 6000rpm.
@@sandvick1 i was actually basing my 2.6 build off of yours, to be honest. I always see people saying don't go lower that a 3.0 pulley just because "everyone" tells you not to, but no actual proof to back that up. I tend to see for myself in situations like that.
With water/methanol injection, even though the charge temperatures are the same as an I/C, the effective octane is being raised, and it changing the octane by slowing down the burn speed. The only real ways to take advantage of that are to increase the timing, increase the compression ratio, increase the boost. Since the engine was already running E-85, adding more timing probably wont help so it would probably respond better to more compression or more boost.
One thing I can tell everyone here- on my own car, which hasnt changed for a few years. When the intake air gets too cold, it "seems to be down on power, and the boost is lazy. As the intake air gets warmer it makes more power, and the boost comes up quicker. It is into "happy land" when the intake air hits 120, and no further improvements in responsiveness are seen. Power seems to start falling off (slightly) past an intake air temp of 140-160, which it only gets to after a hot re-start. I had often wondered why it seemed like that... everything I had read in the past seemed to suggest that colder air is ALWAYS better, but then I was looking at a race fuel information sheet and it said that (for that fuel) the most efficient intake air temp for that fuel was 130F. Things like that, along with the dyno test that showed only a 3.5% increase in power despite dropping the intake air temps 100 degrees(!) makes me kind of wonder if theres a point where too cold is just too cold.
OCTANE DOES NOT ALWAYS CHANGE BURN RATE-THOSE A SEPARATE THINGS
@@richardholdener1727 You are right, but in the case of water and methanol, BOTH slow down the burn rate a bunch, and if you dont compensate for that in some way, you lose power, or at least dont fully take advantage of it. I've heard of guys running 27 degrees total at 30 psi or close to that on pure methanol injection.
Richard, could you please slow down the intro pictures. Give us a chance to absorb what is on the test stand
Richard have you tested the in manifold core to the same motor external core manifolds?
IN MANIFOLD CORE TO EXT CORE MAN?
I love watching these videos Man. Are you going to do a video where you pulley it down a little more because you put the intercooler on so we can see the power gains. I'm also interested on seeing the intercooler installed on a stock cam car with the same pulley configuration. The car will produce more boost because there is no cam. I'm interested in seeing the charge temperatures. Thank you very much for what you're doing I am 3/4 through my build and this information will let me know what to do next.
I have a 3.0/intercooler/e85/stock cam and i make around the same boost. 11.5-12
@@sg34qw you always lose boost running through an intercooler and even more adding a cam. I'm interested in seeing a stock cam car intercooled to see if it runs more boost than the cam intercooled with same pulley size
i have this same setup Richard ran but with a stock cam.. i run 11.5-12lbs of boost. maybe my teflon coating is worn, but its the same boost as richard was running.
@@sg34qw I ran 14 pounds on a 3.1 pulley, non intercooled. I would just like to see a stock cam intercooled pulling down as low as you can go without kr.
@@CBbailey im just saying you said you'd like to see what boost a stock cam would make on a intercooled 3.0 car. And im telling you what mine makes. If you made 14lbs with a 3.1 you had an exhaust restriction.
Richard,what does fhis do for hood clearence with the intercooler?
the intercooler is definitely taller-no idea on fitment-I only ran on the dyno
I would offer that the water sprayed into the intake is displacing air and fuel thus the resultant lack of power gain compared to the intercooler. Energy is spent converting the water into steam which then goes out the tailpipe. #MAZDA
steam does have much higher volume than water, so that should help drive the piston down. At least that is what the F1 people said when they played with water injection
The intercooler would have made a bigger difference on 91 octane, e85 is almost a intercooler itself
e85 is knock resistant at higher temps. if it was "almost an intercooler" you wouldnt see 214 degree IAT's non-intercooled.
@@sg34qw eh.. the reality lies somewhere in the middle. The temp probe is before the E85 is introduced. E85 DOES significantly cool the air, but not until it's going through the port and into the cylinder, where we can't exactly measure it with a temp probe. But, you can calculate it.
@@armcclure e85 barely makes a difference when you have multi port injection. It makes a significant difference when carbureted or tbi.
Single turbo with e85 blowthrough carb no IC. 25psi boost airtemp before carb is 210-220F. And below the carb 75-80
@@triplestangman it makes a bigger MEASURABLE difference with TBI or carb. I understand what you're talking about, I've seen high-rise blow-through E85 turbo cars with condensation on the outside of the runners.
That cooling effect still happens in a port injection setup. The fuel still has to change state to burn. We just don't have a temp probe inside of the combustion chamber.
Richard can you clarify if charge temp is degrees fahrenheit or celsius? No units on the axis 😭
F
I much prefer this style video. I feel like I'm in the shop with you.
It seems that the "rule of thumb" is 1 percent increase in HP for every 10 deg cooler. Or roughly 10 percent for the 100 degF change. 400 hp x 1.10 = 440 hp with the intercooler. I wonder if the intercooler is restricting the intake.
I came across this article which uses a formula directly relating intake air temperature and hp. According to the math, I would expect at least a 33 hp gain at 6100 rpm.
temp alone doesn't change power
I am about to reinstall my ported m90 gen 5. Before I do so, I would like to a IAT sensor in the lower intake manifold. This way I can monitor IAT post intercooler. Where would be the best location, and best sensors to use that I can view on a gauge? I see many cheap sensor gauge combos, but do not think they are FAST sensors. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
we use a simple digital type k
Great engine only real problem Glass transmission anything above 320 hp they just melt.
Yeah the 4T65e-hd has its weak points, but with a clean build can safely hold that power as long as you don't beat on it. Now checkout what LS4 King is doing with the 4T80, it makes more things possible.
What a cliffhanger on this one. Why didn’t you gain any of power with the injection? Your leaving me on the edge of my seat
I was wondering what temperature water you were running through the intetcooler?
near 80
@@richardholdener1727 Ok . That is about what a car would have on a normal day. Was this intercooler the ZZP short stack?