@@jacobburskey3044 yeah I understand that but it's still crazy have you seen their CAI it's so cheaply made and cost like 300 bucks I understand performance parts but some things are insane same with intense racing
Imo parts like that are some you can easily make your own, just as effectively, for a lot less. Specialty parts is when you should go to them like their intercooler/cams/equalizer/etc
As an aussie, it feels good to see this motor being reviewed and tested, this is a holden 3800 ecotec here in Australia used in the commodore, used from 96 to 04 (from what i understand) both n/a and supercharged in a rwd platform ONLY, heaps of aftermarket support for the 3800 also 👍🏽🇦🇺
They did make an awd, the adventra "The Holden Adventra is an off-road version of the Commodore station wagon and was built from 2003-2009. The Adventra boasts full-time four-wheel drive, 200mm of ground clearance along with V8 and V6 engines. The Adventra also has a tough looking body kit with wheel arch extensions and underbody protection." So yeah
@@washedwiththeword i would love to see an ecotec version of the cross6 / adventra, the alloytec was junk because people didnt know how to take care of them, people treated them like ecotecs 😂 hasn't changed the oil in over 40,000 kms and its rattling like charity bucket you throw your coins into 🤣 also seeing a L67 adventra would be awesome aswell 🤷🏽♂️
@@washedwiththeword there's actually a large forum page going into full detail on how to convert a VY/VZ GTO/Monaro to AWD using the cross8 / avalanche drivetrain, essentially turning them into that awd monaro holden produced in the early 2000's, was a great read 👍🏾
Is there a bellhousing adapter there in AUS so I can bolt a V6 FWD 3800 to a RWD tremec TKX? I built a coyote project that was outrageously expensive, and at the end of the day, I think a really clean turbo 3800 would actually have been better for the car.
@@Dr_Xyzt sure do man, adapter plate too, I'd assume t56's are a dime a dozen, especially LS ones. Type into google - HOLDEN V6 TO LS1 / T56 - ADAPTER PLATE KIT - and you'll find what you need, ill find you a clutch kit aswell 🤙🏾
@@LOVE-VIBES-X-PROJECT-CARSonly the high end I6/V6's from Audi, Mercedes and BMW made 200+. The top V6's from U.S. and Japanese makers were closer to 170-180. So the 3800 making 205 was pretty impressive for time.
The 3800 was an absolute workhorse of an engine. I'm so sorry it was discontinued. My NA Series II is a stock unit in a 2005 LeSabre. Fantastic fuel economy, 34.2 MPG crusing interstate at 70. This is basically the economy of a Honda Accord from a mid-size V6 in a 3700 lb 6 passenger sedan. Nice work you did on the turbo mods!
I think I would put the blame on the intake manifold being really bad for the naturally aspirated run. The head work didn't get the chance to shine until you put it under boost. Those two things made the power numbers go from lame to exceptional.
I wholeheartedly agree. Doesn’t matter how much you optimize an air pump when it’s sucking through a straw. Now that the engine doesn’t have to overcome an inefficient manifold because it’s being FED air instead of requiring the cylinders to draw it in, the true volumetric efficiency of the engine with the improved head work is revealed. Similar effect is also seen with the LS4 transverse mount V8. They pick up big power when swapped
@@edmundnlemadim8480 There's a fair bit to be said for the E85 in the equation, as well. It's a fantastic high-performance fuel that has an "octane" rating over 100. That gives you the ability to push more boost (or compression) without having to trim timing out. The 3.8L engines, particularly the SC versions, trade lower compression (many variants under 9:1) for higher potential boost. Combined with a good cam and some aggressive ignition timing, you get crazy amounts of power out of seemingly ordinary or underwhelming NA platforms. And it's funny that it could be the heads making all the difference, here. Recall the LQ4 and LQ9 V8 truck engines - same blocks and entire lower assemblies. The difference is literally the heads - the LQ4 had the low-compression head (9.4:1) and made 325hp/370ft-lb while the LQ9 had the higher-compression head (10:1) and made 345hp/380ft-lb. But the LQ4 engines (or, at least the heads) were snatched up by hobbyist drag racers because they took boost a lot better. Less compression means they don't need to pull as much timing out under a given boost load. (And, for the record, without boost, the LQ4 ran just fine on 87 octane "regular" but the LQ9 demanded 91 octane "premium" to avoid pre-ignition.)
I completely gutted my M-90 plenum……I Removed everything….it’s truly hollowed out…. it can never be a Super charger…but it’s a lot lighter. I made sure I didn’t cut into the coolant lines….it was a pain in the ass….the Aluminum is tough on those things.
Even N/A, 289 horses and 292 lb ft from 232 cubic inches is nothing I would throw rocks at. Over 600 hp, and 550 lb ft from that, on STOCK INTERNALS, and gentle tuning to limit low speed torque is really impressive. Who would have ever thought a Buick regal had so much left on the table?? Awesome work, and thank you for your legwork putting these combinations together for fun, and the science!
From someone whos put his wheel time in on these, several actually. Upgrade your water pump, switch immediately to a inline fuel pump and switch the 4l60e for a 4l80e and have the shift kit installed.
I just came to say the 3800 V6 is still a beast. It is the BEST American engineered and built V6 ever. I would say the same about the Ford Ecoboost but those were engineered by Mazda.
I have both, in the form of a 04 GTP and a 16 SHO, and the 3800 wins by miles. The Eco makes amazing power, but they're absolutely no where near as reliable, very expensive to fix, and ummm... $3,000 water pump.
That’s what low compression engines do as boost increases the volumetric efficiency increases therefore increasing the Horsepower drastically. We ran a 5.7 LS engine 8.3 to1 compression very sluggish out of boost no power, under boost it was an animal, made 760 rear wheel horsepower at 14 1/2 pounds of boost. 10.5 to 1 Would make more power under 15 pounds of boost but not drastically more.
i have 2 300zx's one is NA to T with 9:1comp other is factory turbo with 7.8:1 comp, both cars feel about as fast as each other when flooring it, but the factory turbo car and can be a sluggish dog driving thru carparks and tight suburbs unless you keep the revs up, where the 9:1 is much better behaved below 1/2 throttle
That's a good point. My friend and I built an NA L36 for his speedway car. He has custom domed pistons and ZZP alloy heads which has 14.5:1 comp on e85 with a moderate cam of 228/228 and 0.543 lift. His goal was a boat load of low to mid torque. It peaks 335hp at just 5000 rpm. It has the yanky series 3 banana manifold as it flows better than the crappy Aussie ones. His car is very successful and comes in the top 10 out of around 100 competitors and is the only V6 out of the top 10 against Barras and LS v8s. Considering the moderate cam it makes good power at low rpm due to good head flow and high comp. I am sure with a proper racing cam in the 260+ duration and ITBs it should get 100hp/L or more with the rest of the combo it has. Interestingly the series 1 3800 here in Aus has much more of a history for NA development than the series 2 did and was even used in a Formula series here and they made 340hp at 6700 rpm on 10:1 comp back in the 90s. They used a flat tappet cam then as they didn't have mechanical rollers that were fully shrouded to prevent oil gallery uncovering back then. And they have tiny 1.76 X 1.5" valves, much smaller than the series 2 and 3. They were also restricted to 60mm single stock throttle as per series rules. I plan to built one of these engines but with modern techniques. Head porting has come a long way since, you can easily run 12:1 on pump fuel with a 260 duration cam with a good tune these days and the cam is available in roller now as well as custom mech roller lifters to suit. Larger throttles are easy to make. I expect probably 360-380 hp NA.
The higher compression motors make more power every where and spools turbos much faster though and big gains off peak. It will limit you if you are knock limited by the fuel as it’s down side.
@@mddunlap03 Well aware, the stock ecu is tuned for regular, so I just run premium fuel at stock boost level, no intercooler but with a newer, more efficient turbo than factory.
I’m interested in the 3800 project I know I’m a year late but I just came across your channel today and the content in your channel is what I’ve been looking for
Australian after market support for series 2 3800 v-6 , Steel cranked stroker kits 4.2 liters...ported n/a intakes - Dyno tested already - with heaps research published etc.... twin throttle intakes -(twin 69 mil throttles) air to air intercoolers / also water to Air upgrades... Turbo kits twin and single.....LS coil conversions --- basically all sorts of aftermarket parts that makes for lots of v -6 fun...👍👍👍..
I can't help but feel that this has more to do with the efficiency range of the turbo than with any property of the engine. I'm curious what the compressor map looks like for this particular GT45. It may have just been that at 1 bar, it was entering its most efficient operating range
i have played with these turbos a bit and you are correct, they are a bit lazy on lower boost but in my experience once they hit over 20ish psi they really come alive
My theory on the hp/psi going up, is how you described taking the plate off the blower and the NA motor wanting more air than the TB opening could provide. As the boost pressure increased more air was going through the throttle body more efficiently and into the gutted blower.
Been telling people this for year's. The cars these motors came in make people overlook them, i feel like they havent had their "time" yet. Eveybody usually had the same reaction to my old turbo Grand Prix GTP when i would tell them about it. Kind of a "yea whatever dude, sure" reaction. As soon as they went for a ride, they understood it, love seeing someone else giving the platform some love
Richard - If the 3800 is such a good basis - why don't you try to make a twin-turbo setup reaching the 710HP of a 488 Ferrari Pista? You made already 600HP+ with a single turbo/supercharger setup. It would be hilarious. A GM small block V6 beating a Ferrari V8!
It comes down to efficiency, the more efficient the heads flow air in concert with the cam and intake are what makes power. When you maximize those variables coupled with additional fuel and boost, the sky is the limit on how much power you can generate. This applies to every engine. The pistons and crankshaft merely harness the force generated by the chemical reaction that occurs in the combustion chamber.
It would be awesome to see you do a collab or something with Terrell Smith. He's one of the foremost 3800 gurus and builders in the community. He just finished a Paxton centrifugal supercharged 6 speed build on his Hellboi Grand Prix.
@@robbygray9562 I guess that depends on what you consider high compression. Guys run 12 and 13 to 1 all the time with boost and e85. It’s just with the higher compression ratio it makes tuning very important
Love the NIC cam, low lift, easy on valvetrain and nice lopy idle. Powerband past 6k, been running it for almost a decade. I did try a turbo setup, also on e85, same setup, same empty supercharger housing, 16 psi and no intercooler and no knock, was an absolute beast in boost but a total dog off the line so went back to just supercharged, way more fun on the street from light to light. Why it's weak NA? Has to be the poor flowing heads, they were probably designed to keep pre-ignition knock low but horrible in the flow department. Imagine a 4 valve 3800 supercharged, all the torque off the line but added way more power up high.
Awesome content Sir. Very informative and helpful I always find myself referring back to your ls test videos for ideas on my builds thanks for all the hard work. Cant wait to see whats next.
So I had a 2001 Honda Accord sedan that came with a 3.0L (J30A1) V6 that made 200 HP with a 4 speed auto. I pulled the J30A1 with the auto trans and swapped in a JDM J32A (basically a J32A2) with a 2003 Acura CL Type-S six speed manual trans and it was alot of fun just in that form. Those engines are 10.5:1 compression and make 260 HP stock. I bought a cheap eBay set of turbo manifolds, a collector pipe, an up-pipe, and a two-piece downpipe, a GTS3582 dual ball bearing, billet compressor wheel turbo, a custom made set of ARP head studs, a Gates RPM timing belt and water pump, a new timing belt tensioner, a set of Injector Nation 1000cc custom made injectors for the J series engines, and I ran it on an AEM Series II 30-6051 standalone ECU. On 10 lbs of boost it made 458 whp and it was definitely a drop a gear and disappear car. Now I have a 2004 Acura TL and it has the J32A3 that makes 270 HP and has an 11.0:1 compression ratio. I can't use my AEM with it because it's plug n play for the OBD2A harness and it's not meant to work with anything newer than a 2003, so I have no clue how I'm going to control fuel and air...yet.
I would like to see an actual NA comparison using the actual NA L36 motor which has a higher compression ratio, an then some tests on a top swap and turbo as well using the L67 lower intake manifold vs the L36 version see which makes more power
I think that the multipler with turbo is the rise over run in rpms. The NA/ the roots and the less than one bar of boost showed that the GT 45 is in synch with the rise in boost to the back pressure. It was more efficient at the 1 bar a/r ratio than the lesser boost and the character of the Roots blower backup pressure. I think that you have revealed an overachiever combination that from 11 psi to 14.55 was the flow vs the compression ratio and the rising boost curve and happy back pressure raised the hp proportionally to the advantage in that sweet spot. Good boost vs back pressure and the cool relaxed mixture was in its wheelhouse. A great phenomenon and I just get a kick out of these kind of discoveries. A relaxed mixture with velocity will yield more power than either a sluggish mixture with less velocity than the 1 bar where you hit that happy place in velocity and mixture. I hope my 394 FE and 7875- 1.25 ar will find that sweet spot!
I've been thinking about doing a video series on combustion pressure, and how it interplays with inpet pressure etc. The quick answer is, as inlet pressure goes up, the in cylinder pressure production relative to port pressure climbs in a logarithmic fashion.
Could the gutted blower be acting as a too large of plenum causing the air flow to slow too much causing there to be no ram effect whatsoever and in fact filling the cylinders less than an NA engine with a normal intake. This would than be overcome by boost making it appear that boost has a more significant impact vs the fact that the NA intake design (gutted blower) is actually working against the natural air flow from high pressure to low as the air slows as it enters the plenum.
I agree with the others saying the turbo was coming into its efficiency band. Even at 11 psig the turbo is making more power than the engine itself (the turbo characteristics dominate). The small intake valve is a hindrance to high rpm (not what the 3800 was designed for) but the turbo makes up for that. It pushed peak power from 5800 rpm to 6400 rpm. The exhaust valve is sized for a much larger engine and can keep up with the extra air. It's almost as if Buick designed the 3800 to be a turbo motor... There's a Grand National with a series 2, stage 1 stattama cam, ported heads, and a 61mm turbo running 10.5 at around 130 mph. It has to be making over 600 hp, and idles like stock.
I love these videos for us 3800 guys! Super informative as always with your content. I agree with a lot of other comments on how the na intake literally sucks lol. The holden commodore/calais with the 3800 or ecotec as they name them, has a very different intake design that looks like it would flow much better. Getting one here in the us isnt super easy, but there are a few that have gotten some including myself i would love to see you test
I think on applications that dont really respond to NA tuning is because they have a bottleneck somewhere, usually the heads, and the increased manifold pressure is able to overcome that deficit in pumping loss.
I just ran this combination in my software. This goes right through the middle of the efficiency peak for that particular turbo and boost level. This setup is awesome. With a sheet metal intake tuned to 4800RPM, it'll be every bit as legendary as the old indy versions of this engine.
@@richardholdener1727 I want to move the power peak left, just a tiny bit. A high plenum like on a Boss 302 would give you access to the valley of the engine to clean it up periodically. Of all the engines on your channel, this one is one of my favorites. A little bit of bead blasting here and there to clean it up, and she'll be a rockstar!
The boost/bar formula is only a very rough ballpark estimate that just happens to work out pretty well most of the time. The low static CR of this engine helps you run higher boost before becoming octane limited on E85. On this engine, the turbo is probably well matched to produce a favorable back pressure/boost ratio at 2 bar.
Thermal efficiency is a good guess. With a given in-cylinder temperature the metal surfaces will only conduct so much heat, even though the chemical reactions with more air and fuel will create more pressure, thus wasting a smaller percentage as wasted heat through the metal surfaces. Another, although less likely, possibility is that the combustion process is more rapid or more complete under higher boost. Considering back-pressure produced during turbocharging, it seems counter-intuitive that volumetric efficiency would increase with higher boost levels. This would not really be the same set of circumstances as with a positive displacement supercharger.
The formula for boost predicting hp assumes the na manifold pressure of 0 psi. I suspect the intake manifold is under slight vacuum (negative psi) when running the engine na which will cause higher gains than the math predicts when under boost. So my guess is restrictive intake manifold and or throttle body. E85 most likely makes a difference as well
Compressor map efficiency, depending on the A/R, turbine and compressor combination, the turbo will prefer to operate within certain ranges, in those islands it will move more air per pound of boost and heat it less. Which results in more power. At the low boost you were probably under that island, and moved into it.
I’d have to say it had to do partially with how pressurized air flows. Pressurize air doesn’t need as smooth of a transition to flow a lot of air. Which is why charge piping doesn’t need to be as large as the inlet. NA cars any air flow restriction has a big effect. I think the other part is the low compression. Low compression do not have the ability to move air into the engine. Turbo cars eliminate this problem forcing air in. Lastly I think it had to do with the turbochargers efficiency range. I’d have to say your just in a very efficient spot on the compressor map.
The GT45 really likes gasoline engines in the 3.8 to 4.3 litres / 230-250 cubic inches, and E85 makes boost and timing possible, especially with mild compression.
That efficiency computation is interesting. Maybe because this is an Iron engine with a lot of thermal mass, that helps it make good use of the latent heat of vaporization in the E85. Plus, you're probably on the good side of the turbo map in the same spot where the head/cam/intake combo is just starting to quit.
I wonder if he has parts for sale LOL. Absolutely interesting stuff for anyone considering a 3800. A video clip of the highest pull to get the sounds and sights would have made this perfect.
True that the gutted blower is an impediment to the NA motor, but don't underestimate the low stock compression of the SC motor. The L67 in my Fiero is just slightly built (headers & cold air intake), and gets crap mileage around town, decent on the highway (30), but when I did 85 MPH on a stretch with a 80 MPH speed limit it got 42 MPG. I figure it was the only time it had enough load to boost the compression for a significant distance. I'm pretty sure the L36 would give me better mileage around town & cruising the freeway. I would miss the acceleration.
Where is the boost pressure taken from? If it's below the gutted blower, the engine could been seeing a higher boost pressure at the throttle body entrance than what the gauge is showing. Like others pointed out, the N/A motor wanted more air than the throttle body could flow, there cound be a pressure drop to overcoming the intake restrictions and then the boost reading is taken.
What exactly was the reason the 3800 was discontinued? Was it emissions or something related? It was so solid and ahead of anything else in almost all aspects. I had 2 Oldsmobile 98's that had this excellent powerplant. Both were so good they cast shame on the car's weak point which was the trans. These were big cars and that motor provided more than adequate torque with amazing gas mileage. This power plant should have been continually produced with , yes, turbo charging. It would likely make a great V8 replacement as such.
I am curious at to whether one of these blowers from a 3.8 will adapt to a 5thgen Camaro V6 . Looks like the throttle would be pointing toward the firewall. And if there was a way to adapt it onto the intake 🤯
Depending on the particular motor that you got from the junkyard it may have been a high compression head set up already I say that because Buick makes high-compression heads from the factory Pontiac and Chevy did not offer this as an option but Buick did
As several have already replied, some of the issue is probably where you are on the compressor map. Do you have the comp out pressures to go with the boost pressures?
Porting helps to a point when you're running NA, but the engine can only suck so much air in per cycle. That's why you see such large gains when you increase compression ratios, because the engine is "sucking" harder to fill its cylinders and compressing that mixture to increase combustion efficiency. It's why leaner AF ratios help right up until it melts something because you turned your cylinder into a cutting torch. Boost allows you to cram more into the cylinder without the drawbacks of high compression and it really allows the porting to play dividends. It's all the little things that add up to fill the cylinders. The bigger ports allow more air/fuel mix through. The bigger turbo pushes more air. The higher boost pressure crams more into the cylinder per stroke.
We have the Buick 3800 in our Holden commodores here in Australia. Old mate got 1000hp out of his Buick engine just turboed and cammed. These engines are ridiculously strong
Q?; from an 'Proud' owner of a GTP 3800 ser. III - NA. ('04 G. Prix): If I were to Mod w the turbo, what are the stresses on the stock tranny ? A intercooler is an obvious must, cause it already runs way too hot, causing some shifting issues...(common problem). All mods wud be for street / showing & reg. Driving, Not Racing. Trying too keep it cheap, reliable, and simple ! (Also.... I'm an enthusiasts, but, not a mechanic... ) Thanks
my 94 regal back in the day was series one na, it would beat a 5.0 mustang all day long. I eventually had to junk it. 17 years later i picked up a 93 regal very similar to it, its slower as it doesn't have the composite intake but overall the thing still pulls harder than most cars on the road and still gets me a nice 24 miles to the gallon.
i don't think it, i lived it. the 4t60E transmission may be thought of as weak but what most fail to realize is its geared perfectly for the weight of the car and the power rpm range. The ole pewquick would leave two rubber patches as long as a limo and would dust the mustangs. i remember lining up next to this yellow 98 stickshift 5.0, guy thought he was gonna take me, never saw him after he hit 3rd gear.@@richardholdener1727
I don’t know… I bought an ‘89 LeSabre new, and loved it so much, I bought a black on black’92 Buick Regal Gran Sport Supercharged 2-Door (Black leather might not have been the best idea in Arizona, but I owned a small mobile electronics company at the time, so I just had one of my guys install a remote start alarm system to help cool it down a bit.) A bit of tuning, a custom milled billet supercharger pulley and water/methanol injection and she was eating most sports cars alive (She was also eating transmissions and CV joints as well, but that’s a different story for a different day…). I’m still a Buick 3.8 S/C NUT! I’d really like to put one in a Fiero someday….
Boost is a restriction. It's only relevant for that specific combination. The cfm is a huge difference between that blower and gt45 making manifold air much denser , e85 will drop the intake air too and let you run more timing from the higher octane content , the turbo doesn't have the parasitic loss .
I wish I still owned my 89 TTA, All I did was change the waste gate up ,down pipe, exhaust some intake and I was in the 11s I really don’t know what horsepower it was making but it was stupid fast for it’s time .
I think it’s the ring gap/compression for N/A setup vs boosted set up. If you build your bottom end with ring gap for a boosted application it will only make power if the boost is there.. just like if you set the bottom end up for N/A the ring gap is tighter for N/a so that it responds like a N/A should
Do the #'s come back in line if you use the empty blower with open back run as baseline? You said it picked up power. Intake restricted vs E85 + boost?
I also think the turbo is just getting into it's higher efficiency islands. When you finally reached 1bar/~15psi, the turbo was just getting efficient. If you would have made a few more runs at 18-19psi, 21-22psi, and 25-26psi, I would expect the HP/psi to get even greater until it the curve flatten out around 25-26psi. Some compressor wheels don't reach maximum efficiency until even higher than 25-26psi. Usually the larger turbos and compressor wheels, don't like to make much power at lower pressure. Most generic gt45's use a 69mm/98mm compressor wheel and a 88/77.5 turbine wheel. They are not small turbos, they have made well over the 600hp they are advertised to make. I have seen these turbos make over 800 Wheel hp(920Crank HP@15% drivetrain loss) I would think the engine would make close to 800whp, if not more, at less than 25psi. Using his 33hp per psi, it would only need another 6psi@33hp/psi=200hp. That would push it past 800whp@21psi.
I think the difference can be attributed to the spark timing being a little conservative naturally aspirated. If you added timing, you wouldn't make more power NA, but the boosted combo wanted timing.
Heads are getting used now. = 600hp. Also the hp per psi will get even larger as the compressor gets into its efficiency island. First thing to die when you turn it up will be a piston crown, but you will have to lean on it. It'll start knocking but still run fine lol.
I'd say the first thing to go will be the ringlands. Factory cast pistons were never designed to handle the rigors of boost. The second there is any detonation or if the ring ends butt up, the ringlands crack. Forged pistons are best for boosted applications.
@@moedigzz ive had first hand experiance with L67 crowns breaking off. They last for some time though. Have run 9sec 1/4 on the cast pistons and the engine is still going.
Hello how are you today? I love your videos and I am an big fan of the v6 parshal to the buick 3.8l or 4.1l have an few of these older engines I like what you have done with the newer engines I. The 3.8l form but what if you added boost to the camaro 3.4l v6 chevys 60* engineer even the hated 2.8l? Juat wondering hope this sparked your wonder some to see. I would also like to ask when you did the fwd intake inside comparison's from high to low why not add boost to that test I thing the low inside would make the best power but what about the rpm of these inside high mid and low what makes what where via each
Did you happen to compare backpressure? As others have said, it could be that the turbo is in a more efficient island on the map. Could also be the porting on the heads, as I've seen turbulent ports improve at different depressions. Obviously boost *could* fix a turbulent port. You've tested E85 enough to know what it'll do, so I'll leave that one to you.
@@richardholdener1727 there's a ton of factors you could be comparing by doing an L36/L67 comparison. The peak power at various levels of boost is an obvious one, but also failure points. How many psi can each block run before internal failure? How many psi can each block run on 97 before knock? Which one burns through a gallon of gasoline faster at simulated highway conditions (~2.5k rpm, ~14% load)?
@@richardholdener1727 Thanks! That Thunderbird super coupe is an under-appreciated vehicle... That can be had still for a very good price... I think it will likely become a collectible.. thanks for the info... I'm all about the budget builds lol..
I'm not sure exactly I'm talking about I've got a 1997 Pontiac firebird trans am and I've been told that certain body's won't accept a V8. Is it that it won't accept the V8 or it can't or is it that some people just don't want to go through the trouble of modifying certain parts in the engine well to have clearance for a V8 or is there another issue that I don't completely no please get back to me with information thank you
The engine is running at its volumetric efficiency point. And also the turbo is running at its most efficient point on its compressor map. That is where you get the extra gain from. Just my theory
I plan on running a ZZP turbo kit on my 2004 Monte Carlo SS with the L67 engine. ZZP offers a L67 to a L26 conversion kit with the HV3 insert. Is it safe to say that I'll make less power in low and mid range ? It looks like you lost power with the HV3 insert. I don't know what my options will be. I dont want to loose power.
Hi Richard, what would I need to do to get a l36 upper and l36 lower to replace my blower and l67 lower intake? Since the l67 injectors are in the heads, what mods would I need to do to get the l36 intake to work on my l67? Thx.@@richardholdener1727
I think all the mods took full advantage of the efficiency of the turbo setup. What compression ratio did it have? Also are any of the parts still available?
@richardholdener1727 nope definitely 3800 might be grand prix dont recall i get em mixed up alot newer body style tho base model not gt or nun like that no turbo or S.C
I think the engine works well under boost because of the cam timing is working better for volumetric efficiency when there is more air mass flowing in the runners.
Hey Richard I was wondering if you could do a indepth video on what changing spark plug to a complete modern coil on plug ignition system would look like on the dyno with high end spark.
I think it was diyautotune that did a experiment years ago, starting with a distributor and signal from the distrubutor to the ecu. Then added a trigger wheel. Under very high acceleraion rate in a dyno the same engine with the added trigger wheel gained some power. Under steady state the power would be the same. The important thing is that you have a strong enough spark. Many COP systems don't have very strong spark from the factory.
Hey love the content... i had a 94 cavalier gt with a 3.8 rwd set up with a 6 speed behind it. Thinking about putting one in a pontiac solstice... what do you think?
@JPL Performance the rods between the series 2 L67 and L36 are identical. The rods in any series 3 are powder forged and slightly stronger but only by a small amount
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3800’s are definitely slept on, just wish there were more options for aftermarket parts like heads and intake manifolds and stuff
Honestly zzp is extremely overpriced for basic parts compared to other platforms
@@emersonurbina8042 because they are 1 of 2 company's who sell a large amount of parts
@@jacobburskey3044 yeah I understand that but it's still crazy have you seen their CAI it's so cheaply made and cost like 300 bucks I understand performance parts but some things are insane same with intense racing
@JPL Performance that is true and sadly with it being fwd is the reason the platform isn't as popular
Imo parts like that are some you can easily make your own, just as effectively, for a lot less. Specialty parts is when you should go to them like their intercooler/cams/equalizer/etc
As an aussie, it feels good to see this motor being reviewed and tested, this is a holden 3800 ecotec here in Australia used in the commodore, used from 96 to 04 (from what i understand) both n/a and supercharged in a rwd platform ONLY, heaps of aftermarket support for the 3800 also 👍🏽🇦🇺
They did make an awd, the adventra
"The Holden Adventra is an off-road version of the Commodore station wagon and was built from 2003-2009. The Adventra boasts full-time four-wheel drive, 200mm of ground clearance along with V8 and V6 engines. The Adventra also has a tough looking body kit with wheel arch extensions and underbody protection."
So yeah
@@washedwiththeword i would love to see an ecotec version of the cross6 / adventra, the alloytec was junk because people didnt know how to take care of them, people treated them like ecotecs 😂 hasn't changed the oil in over 40,000 kms and its rattling like charity bucket you throw your coins into 🤣 also seeing a L67 adventra would be awesome aswell 🤷🏽♂️
@@washedwiththeword there's actually a large forum page going into full detail on how to convert a VY/VZ GTO/Monaro to AWD using the cross8 / avalanche drivetrain, essentially turning them into that awd monaro holden produced in the early 2000's, was a great read 👍🏾
Is there a bellhousing adapter there in AUS so I can bolt a V6 FWD 3800 to a RWD tremec TKX? I built a coyote project that was outrageously expensive, and at the end of the day, I think a really clean turbo 3800 would actually have been better for the car.
@@Dr_Xyzt sure do man, adapter plate too, I'd assume t56's are a dime a dozen, especially LS ones.
Type into google - HOLDEN V6 TO LS1 / T56 - ADAPTER PLATE KIT - and you'll find what you need, ill find you a clutch kit aswell 🤙🏾
The 3800 made 200hp NA. From a V6 in the 90s, that's massive.
But almost all the v6 cars from the 90s made around 200 hp
@@LOVE-VIBES-X-PROJECT-CARSonly the high end I6/V6's from Audi, Mercedes and BMW made 200+. The top V6's from U.S. and Japanese makers were closer to 170-180. So the 3800 making 205 was pretty impressive for time.
Love this 3800 content. Especially pump fuel budget stuff. So many L36 and L67s in Australia still.
I'm in nz just bolted a GTX3584RS my 450000km l32 6 months ago it's absolutely lethal!
The 3800 was an absolute workhorse of an engine. I'm so sorry it was discontinued. My NA Series II is a stock unit in a 2005 LeSabre. Fantastic fuel economy, 34.2 MPG crusing interstate at 70. This is basically the economy of a Honda Accord from a mid-size V6 in a 3700 lb 6 passenger sedan. Nice work you did on the turbo mods!
I think I would put the blame on the intake manifold being really bad for the naturally aspirated run. The head work didn't get the chance to shine until you put it under boost. Those two things made the power numbers go from lame to exceptional.
I wholeheartedly agree. Doesn’t matter how much you optimize an air pump when it’s sucking through a straw.
Now that the engine doesn’t have to overcome an inefficient manifold because it’s being FED air instead of requiring the cylinders to draw it in, the true volumetric efficiency of the engine with the improved head work is revealed.
Similar effect is also seen with the LS4 transverse mount V8. They pick up big power when swapped
The intake manifold being swapped, that is
@@edmundnlemadim8480 There's a fair bit to be said for the E85 in the equation, as well. It's a fantastic high-performance fuel that has an "octane" rating over 100. That gives you the ability to push more boost (or compression) without having to trim timing out. The 3.8L engines, particularly the SC versions, trade lower compression (many variants under 9:1) for higher potential boost. Combined with a good cam and some aggressive ignition timing, you get crazy amounts of power out of seemingly ordinary or underwhelming NA platforms.
And it's funny that it could be the heads making all the difference, here. Recall the LQ4 and LQ9 V8 truck engines - same blocks and entire lower assemblies. The difference is literally the heads - the LQ4 had the low-compression head (9.4:1) and made 325hp/370ft-lb while the LQ9 had the higher-compression head (10:1) and made 345hp/380ft-lb. But the LQ4 engines (or, at least the heads) were snatched up by hobbyist drag racers because they took boost a lot better. Less compression means they don't need to pull as much timing out under a given boost load. (And, for the record, without boost, the LQ4 ran just fine on 87 octane "regular" but the LQ9 demanded 91 octane "premium" to avoid pre-ignition.)
I completely gutted my M-90 plenum……I Removed everything….it’s truly hollowed out….
it can never be a Super charger…but it’s a lot lighter.
I made sure I didn’t cut into the coolant lines….it was a pain in the ass….the Aluminum is tough on those things.
Even N/A, 289 horses and 292 lb ft from 232 cubic inches is nothing I would throw rocks at.
Over 600 hp, and 550 lb ft from that, on STOCK INTERNALS, and gentle tuning to limit low speed torque is really impressive.
Who would have ever thought a Buick regal had so much left on the table??
Awesome work, and thank you for your legwork putting these combinations together for fun, and the science!
From someone whos put his wheel time in on these, several actually. Upgrade your water pump, switch immediately to a inline fuel pump and switch the 4l60e for a 4l80e and have the shift kit installed.
I just came to say the 3800 V6 is still a beast. It is the BEST American engineered and built V6 ever. I would say the same about the Ford Ecoboost but those were engineered by Mazda.
I have both, in the form of a 04 GTP and a 16 SHO, and the 3800 wins by miles. The Eco makes amazing power, but they're absolutely no where near as reliable, very expensive to fix, and ummm... $3,000 water pump.
@@scotthoward4836 the FWD 3.5L EcoBoost
That’s what low compression engines do as boost increases the volumetric efficiency increases therefore increasing the Horsepower drastically. We ran a 5.7 LS engine 8.3 to1 compression very sluggish out of boost no power, under boost it was an animal, made 760 rear wheel horsepower at 14 1/2 pounds of boost. 10.5 to 1 Would make more power under 15 pounds of boost but not drastically more.
i have 2 300zx's one is NA to T with 9:1comp other is factory turbo with 7.8:1 comp, both cars feel about as fast as each other when flooring it, but the factory turbo car and can be a sluggish dog driving thru carparks and tight suburbs unless you keep the revs up, where the 9:1 is much better behaved below 1/2 throttle
That's a good point. My friend and I built an NA L36 for his speedway car. He has custom domed pistons and ZZP alloy heads which has 14.5:1 comp on e85 with a moderate cam of 228/228 and 0.543 lift. His goal was a boat load of low to mid torque. It peaks 335hp at just 5000 rpm. It has the yanky series 3 banana manifold as it flows better than the crappy Aussie ones. His car is very successful and comes in the top 10 out of around 100 competitors and is the only V6 out of the top 10 against Barras and LS v8s.
Considering the moderate cam it makes good power at low rpm due to good head flow and high comp.
I am sure with a proper racing cam in the 260+ duration and ITBs it should get 100hp/L or more with the rest of the combo it has.
Interestingly the series 1 3800 here in Aus has much more of a history for NA development than the series 2 did and was even used in a Formula series here and they made 340hp at 6700 rpm on 10:1 comp back in the 90s. They used a flat tappet cam then as they didn't have mechanical rollers that were fully shrouded to prevent oil gallery uncovering back then.
And they have tiny 1.76 X 1.5" valves, much smaller than the series 2 and 3. They were also restricted to 60mm single stock throttle as per series rules.
I plan to built one of these engines but with modern techniques. Head porting has come a long way since, you can easily run 12:1 on pump fuel with a 260 duration cam with a good tune these days and the cam is available in roller now as well as custom mech roller lifters to suit. Larger throttles are easy to make. I expect probably 360-380 hp NA.
The higher compression motors make more power every where and spools turbos much faster though and big gains off peak. It will limit you if you are knock limited by the fuel as it’s down side.
@@mddunlap03 Well aware, the stock ecu is tuned for regular, so I just run premium fuel at stock boost level, no intercooler but with a newer, more efficient turbo than factory.
@@Mitchd03Hey Mitch, how's your NA-T setup doing these days?
I’m interested in the 3800 project
I know I’m a year late but I just came across your channel today and the content in your channel is what I’ve been looking for
Australian after market support for series 2 3800 v-6 , Steel cranked stroker kits 4.2 liters...ported n/a intakes - Dyno tested already - with heaps research published etc.... twin throttle intakes -(twin 69 mil throttles) air to air intercoolers / also water to Air upgrades... Turbo kits twin and single.....LS coil conversions --- basically all sorts of aftermarket parts that makes for lots of v -6 fun...👍👍👍..
I can't help but feel that this has more to do with the efficiency range of the turbo than with any property of the engine. I'm curious what the compressor map looks like for this particular GT45. It may have just been that at 1 bar, it was entering its most efficient operating range
Exactly this.
i have played with these turbos a bit and you are correct, they are a bit lazy on lower boost but in my experience once they hit over 20ish psi they really come alive
My theory on the hp/psi going up, is how you described taking the plate off the blower and the NA motor wanting more air than the TB opening could provide. As the boost pressure increased more air was going through the throttle body more efficiently and into the gutted blower.
Dang you posited while I was typing
Been telling people this for year's. The cars these motors came in make people overlook them, i feel like they havent had their "time" yet. Eveybody usually had the same reaction to my old turbo Grand Prix GTP when i would tell them about it. Kind of a "yea whatever dude, sure" reaction. As soon as they went for a ride, they understood it, love seeing someone else giving the platform some love
I’m getting ready to turbo my 3800 series 2 in my 1998 firebird, thanks for this video! Looking forward to the build
Can’t find any turbo kits, do I have to make it all my self or trust the ones off eBay?
Is there a guide you're following for this? I want to do the same with my series 2 in 02 camaro.
Richard - If the 3800 is such a good basis - why don't you try to make a twin-turbo setup reaching the 710HP of a 488 Ferrari Pista? You made already 600HP+ with a single turbo/supercharger setup. It would be hilarious. A GM small block V6 beating a Ferrari V8!
700 HP WOULD JUST BE MORE BOOST FROM THE 1 TURBO-NO NEED FOR TWINS-AND WE ARE SHOOTING FOR 1000 HP
You ever do any work for people I have a lambo Diablo kit car with the 3800 super changed.
It comes down to efficiency, the more efficient the heads flow air in concert with the cam and intake are what makes power. When you maximize those variables coupled with additional fuel and boost, the sky is the limit on how much power you can generate. This applies to every engine. The pistons and crankshaft merely harness the force generated by the chemical reaction that occurs in the combustion chamber.
It would be awesome to see you do a collab or something with Terrell Smith. He's one of the foremost 3800 gurus and builders in the community. He just finished a Paxton centrifugal supercharged 6 speed build on his Hellboi Grand Prix.
Well 8.5:1 comp certainly doesn’t help the NA setup.
I think It hurts boosted power the same way
@@tomcelica boost loves compression. Issue is cylinder pressure. Hard to keep the heads on a motor with high boost and high compression
@@robbygray9562 boost is a multiplier. It just adds to what’s there
@@robbygray9562 I guess that depends on what you consider high compression. Guys run 12 and 13 to 1 all the time with boost and e85. It’s just with the higher compression ratio it makes tuning very important
Erm the L32 has higher compression than the L67
Low C.R (8.0~8.5 : 1) + HIGH boost = wicked HP and torque.
Love the NIC cam, low lift, easy on valvetrain and nice lopy idle. Powerband past 6k, been running it for almost a decade. I did try a turbo setup, also on e85, same setup, same empty supercharger housing, 16 psi and no intercooler and no knock, was an absolute beast in boost but a total dog off the line so went back to just supercharged, way more fun on the street from light to light. Why it's weak NA? Has to be the poor flowing heads, they were probably designed to keep pre-ignition knock low but horrible in the flow department. Imagine a 4 valve 3800 supercharged, all the torque off the line but added way more power up high.
supercharged is immediate boost-turbo is not-but ultimately more powerful
The turbo increases the effective compression ratio and e85 combination adds power
Awesome content Sir. Very informative and helpful I always find myself referring back to your ls test videos for ideas on my builds thanks for all the hard work. Cant wait to see whats next.
So I had a 2001 Honda Accord sedan that came with a 3.0L (J30A1) V6 that made 200 HP with a 4 speed auto. I pulled the J30A1 with the auto trans and swapped in a JDM J32A (basically a J32A2) with a 2003 Acura CL Type-S six speed manual trans and it was alot of fun just in that form. Those engines are 10.5:1 compression and make 260 HP stock. I bought a cheap eBay set of turbo manifolds, a collector pipe, an up-pipe, and a two-piece downpipe, a GTS3582 dual ball bearing, billet compressor wheel turbo, a custom made set of ARP head studs, a Gates RPM timing belt and water pump, a new timing belt tensioner, a set of Injector Nation 1000cc custom made injectors for the J series engines, and I ran it on an AEM Series II 30-6051 standalone ECU. On 10 lbs of boost it made 458 whp and it was definitely a drop a gear and disappear car. Now I have a 2004 Acura TL and it has the J32A3 that makes 270 HP and has an 11.0:1 compression ratio. I can't use my AEM with it because it's plug n play for the OBD2A harness and it's not meant to work with anything newer than a 2003, so I have no clue how I'm going to control fuel and air...yet.
My friend Jimmy has a turbo J32 (now L35) swapped NSX
I would like to see an actual NA comparison using the actual NA L36 motor which has a higher compression ratio, an then some tests on a top swap and turbo as well using the L67 lower intake manifold vs the L36 version see which makes more power
It obviously has the right turbo cam installed!
%100 correct, it's all about selecting the appropriate (boost specific) camshaft. 😜
I LOVE YOUR CHANNEL. PLEASE CONTINUE TO SHARE YOUR TRUTH.
Love the content, just sent your heads to get ported even more. I can't wait to see the difference in flow
So hanging for the big bang on this motor. Keep up the great work richard
This reminds me... what ever happened to the 292ci inline six?
Excellent work! The big bang I'm hoping to see is the 4.3L lv1 out of the v6 Chevy and GMC vans.
I think that the multipler with turbo is the rise over run in rpms. The NA/ the roots and the less than one bar of boost showed that the GT 45 is in synch with the rise in boost to the back pressure. It was more efficient at the 1 bar a/r ratio than the lesser boost and the character of the Roots blower backup pressure. I think that you have revealed an overachiever combination that from 11 psi to 14.55 was the flow vs the compression ratio and the rising boost curve and happy back pressure raised the hp proportionally to the advantage in that sweet spot. Good boost vs back pressure and the cool relaxed mixture was in its wheelhouse. A great phenomenon and I just get a kick out of these kind of discoveries. A relaxed mixture with velocity will yield more power than either a sluggish mixture with less velocity than the 1 bar where you hit that happy place in velocity and mixture. I hope my 394 FE and 7875- 1.25 ar will find that sweet spot!
It's a combination of efficiency, heads and cam working well to take advantage of the turbo size and E85 helped as it went up.
I think that’s a healthy V6, my mother in law’s Olds Ciero that had the 3800 NA and that car ran really good 👍
I've been thinking about doing a video series on combustion pressure, and how it interplays with inpet pressure etc.
The quick answer is, as inlet pressure goes up, the in cylinder pressure production relative to port pressure climbs in a logarithmic fashion.
Cylinder pressure is proportional to intake pressure.
Could the gutted blower be acting as a too large of plenum causing the air flow to slow too much causing there to be no ram effect whatsoever and in fact filling the cylinders less than an NA engine with a normal intake. This would than be overcome by boost making it appear that boost has a more significant impact vs the fact that the NA intake design (gutted blower) is actually working against the natural air flow from high pressure to low as the air slows as it enters the plenum.
Turbocharger is probably right in the centre of its efficiency island, so you've got a greater density of air per lb of boost
I agree with the others saying the turbo was coming into its efficiency band. Even at 11 psig the turbo is making more power than the engine itself (the turbo characteristics dominate). The small intake valve is a hindrance to high rpm (not what the 3800 was designed for) but the turbo makes up for that. It pushed peak power from 5800 rpm to 6400 rpm. The exhaust valve is sized for a much larger engine and can keep up with the extra air. It's almost as if Buick designed the 3800 to be a turbo motor...
There's a Grand National with a series 2, stage 1 stattama cam, ported heads, and a 61mm turbo running 10.5 at around 130 mph. It has to be making over 600 hp, and idles like stock.
I love these videos for us 3800 guys! Super informative as always with your content. I agree with a lot of other comments on how the na intake literally sucks lol. The holden commodore/calais with the 3800 or ecotec as they name them, has a very different intake design that looks like it would flow much better. Getting one here in the us isnt super easy, but there are a few that have gotten some including myself i would love to see you test
Bro I'm buidling some now and idk what route to go
Very cool tests Richard! Thanks for these great comparisons.
I think on applications that dont really respond to NA tuning is because they have a bottleneck somewhere, usually the heads, and the increased manifold pressure is able to overcome that deficit in pumping loss.
Intake drag as well.
I just ran this combination in my software. This goes right through the middle of the efficiency peak for that particular turbo and boost level. This setup is awesome. With a sheet metal intake tuned to 4800RPM, it'll be every bit as legendary as the old indy versions of this engine.
4800 rpm? Software doesn't show you what actual testing shows you
@@richardholdener1727 I want to move the power peak left, just a tiny bit. A high plenum like on a Boss 302 would give you access to the valley of the engine to clean it up periodically. Of all the engines on your channel, this one is one of my favorites. A little bit of bead blasting here and there to clean it up, and she'll be a rockstar!
The boost/bar formula is only a very rough ballpark estimate that just happens to work out pretty well most of the time. The low static CR of this engine helps you run higher boost before becoming octane limited on E85. On this engine, the turbo is probably well matched to produce a favorable back pressure/boost ratio at 2 bar.
Thermal efficiency is a good guess. With a given in-cylinder temperature the metal surfaces will only conduct so much heat, even though the chemical reactions with more air and fuel will create more pressure, thus wasting a smaller percentage as wasted heat through the metal surfaces.
Another, although less likely, possibility is that the combustion process is more rapid or more complete under higher boost.
Considering back-pressure produced during turbocharging, it seems counter-intuitive that volumetric efficiency would increase with higher boost levels. This would not really be the same set of circumstances as with a positive displacement supercharger.
The formula for boost predicting hp assumes the na manifold pressure of 0 psi. I suspect the intake manifold is under slight vacuum (negative psi) when running the engine na which will cause higher gains than the math predicts when under boost. So my guess is restrictive intake manifold and or throttle body. E85 most likely makes a difference as well
yes and yes
Compressor map efficiency, depending on the A/R, turbine and compressor combination, the turbo will prefer to operate within certain ranges, in those islands it will move more air per pound of boost and heat it less. Which results in more power. At the low boost you were probably under that island, and moved into it.
I’d have to say it had to do partially with how pressurized air flows. Pressurize air doesn’t need as smooth of a transition to flow a lot of air. Which is why charge piping doesn’t need to be as large as the inlet. NA cars any air flow restriction has a big effect. I think the other part is the low compression. Low compression do not have the ability to move air into the engine. Turbo cars eliminate this problem forcing air in. Lastly I think it had to do with the turbochargers efficiency range. I’d have to say your just in a very efficient spot on the compressor map.
The GT45 really likes gasoline engines in the 3.8 to 4.3 litres / 230-250 cubic inches, and E85 makes boost and timing possible, especially with mild compression.
How does the gt45 know what type of fuel is being burned?
@@tomcelica The fuel allows for more timing and higher boost levels. Turbo doesn’t know, but it does know when it’s allowed to make more boost.
4.3 is 262 CID (Vortec 4300)
I'm about to go pick up one of these puppies on Saturday. Gonna watch these 3800 videos on REPEAT
yes
That efficiency computation is interesting. Maybe because this is an Iron engine with a lot of thermal mass, that helps it make good use of the latent heat of vaporization in the E85. Plus, you're probably on the good side of the turbo map in the same spot where the head/cam/intake combo is just starting to quit.
Low NA - Low compression
High under boost - E85
Higher under high boost -IATs exceeded the vapour pressure of E85.
I wonder if he has parts for sale LOL. Absolutely interesting stuff for anyone considering a 3800. A video clip of the highest pull to get the sounds and sights would have made this perfect.
that video is up with dyno pulls
Will look for it. This came across my Google feed so I clicked 😁
True that the gutted blower is an impediment to the NA motor, but don't underestimate the low stock compression of the SC motor. The L67 in my Fiero is just slightly built (headers & cold air intake), and gets crap mileage around town, decent on the highway (30), but when I did 85 MPH on a stretch with a 80 MPH speed limit it got 42 MPG. I figure it was the only time it had enough load to boost the compression for a significant distance. I'm pretty sure the L36 would give me better mileage around town & cruising the freeway. I would miss the acceleration.
a vehicle does not get better fuel mileage at a higher speed-and higher compression will add mpg under cruise
that turbo 3800 would be pretty killer in your project nova if that's still around
Where is the boost pressure taken from? If it's below the gutted blower, the engine could been seeing a higher boost pressure at the throttle body entrance than what the gauge is showing. Like others pointed out, the N/A motor wanted more air than the throttle body could flow, there cound be a pressure drop to overcoming the intake restrictions and then the boost reading is taken.
What exactly was the reason the 3800 was discontinued? Was it emissions or something related? It was so solid and ahead of anything else in almost all aspects. I had 2 Oldsmobile 98's that had this excellent powerplant. Both were so good they cast shame on the car's weak point which was the trans. These were big cars and that motor provided more than adequate torque with amazing gas mileage. This power plant should have been continually produced with , yes, turbo charging. It would likely make a great V8 replacement as such.
the modern v6 motors now make 100 hp more with better MPG-technology marches on
I am curious at to whether one of these blowers from a 3.8 will adapt to a 5thgen Camaro V6 . Looks like the throttle would be pointing toward the firewall. And if there was a way to adapt it onto the intake 🤯
GREAT VIDEO RICHARD. I DO NOT HAVE ANY ANSWERS.
Depending on the particular motor that you got from the junkyard it may have been a high compression head set up already I say that because Buick makes high-compression heads from the factory Pontiac and Chevy did not offer this as an option but Buick did
As several have already replied, some of the issue is probably where you are on the compressor map. Do you have the comp out pressures to go with the boost pressures?
Porting helps to a point when you're running NA, but the engine can only suck so much air in per cycle. That's why you see such large gains when you increase compression ratios, because the engine is "sucking" harder to fill its cylinders and compressing that mixture to increase combustion efficiency. It's why leaner AF ratios help right up until it melts something because you turned your cylinder into a cutting torch.
Boost allows you to cram more into the cylinder without the drawbacks of high compression and it really allows the porting to play dividends. It's all the little things that add up to fill the cylinders. The bigger ports allow more air/fuel mix through. The bigger turbo pushes more air. The higher boost pressure crams more into the cylinder per stroke.
We have the Buick 3800 in our Holden commodores here in Australia. Old mate got 1000hp out of his Buick engine just turboed and cammed. These engines are ridiculously strong
1000 hp from a stock bottom end? seems like a lot
@@richardholdener1727 check out "corn fed boost" channel
Q?; from an 'Proud' owner of a GTP 3800 ser. III - NA. ('04 G. Prix): If I were to Mod w the turbo, what are the stresses on the stock tranny ? A intercooler is an obvious must, cause it already runs way too hot, causing some shifting issues...(common problem).
All mods wud be for street / showing & reg. Driving, Not Racing. Trying too keep it cheap, reliable, and simple !
(Also.... I'm an enthusiasts, but, not a mechanic... )
Thanks
stock trans is not strong enough for this power level
@@richardholdener1727
Suggestions ?? Ty
At 600 hp what would be engine longevity I guess what I'm asking at what horsepower could it be safely driven daily
my 94 regal back in the day was series one na, it would beat a 5.0 mustang all day long. I eventually had to junk it. 17 years later i picked up a 93 regal very similar to it, its slower as it doesn't have the composite intake but overall the thing still pulls harder than most cars on the road and still gets me a nice 24 miles to the gallon.
You think an NA 3800 would beat a 5.0L Mustang?
i don't think it, i lived it. the 4t60E transmission may be thought of as weak but what most fail to realize is its geared perfectly for the weight of the car and the power rpm range. The ole pewquick would leave two rubber patches as long as a limo and would dust the mustangs. i remember lining up next to this yellow 98 stickshift 5.0, guy thought he was gonna take me, never saw him after he hit 3rd gear.@@richardholdener1727
I don’t know… I bought an ‘89 LeSabre new, and loved it so much, I bought a black on black’92 Buick Regal Gran Sport Supercharged 2-Door (Black leather might not have been the best idea in Arizona, but I owned a small mobile electronics company at the time, so I just had one of my guys install a remote start alarm system to help cool it down a bit.) A bit of tuning, a custom milled billet supercharger pulley and water/methanol injection and she was eating most sports cars alive (She was also eating transmissions and CV joints as well, but that’s a different story for a different day…). I’m still a Buick 3.8 S/C NUT! I’d really like to put one in a Fiero someday….
Boost is a restriction. It's only relevant for that specific combination. The cfm is a huge difference between that blower and gt45 making manifold air much denser , e85 will drop the intake air too and let you run more timing from the higher octane content , the turbo doesn't have the parasitic loss .
I wish I still owned my 89 TTA, All I did was change the waste gate up ,down pipe, exhaust some intake and I was in the 11s I really don’t know what horsepower it was making but it was stupid fast for it’s time .
I think it’s the ring gap/compression for N/A setup vs boosted set up. If you build your bottom end with ring gap for a boosted application it will only make power if the boost is there.. just like if you set the bottom end up for N/A the ring gap is tighter for N/a so that it responds like a N/A should
the gap does not change the power-tested it many times
I love you do all sorts of engines
Do the #'s come back in line if you use the empty blower with open back run as baseline? You said it picked up power. Intake restricted vs E85 + boost?
Seems intake manifold may be an issue, torque and hp were similar throughout, suggesting its probably not cam?
I also think the turbo is just getting into it's higher efficiency islands. When you finally reached 1bar/~15psi, the turbo was just getting efficient. If you would have made a few more runs at 18-19psi, 21-22psi, and 25-26psi, I would expect the HP/psi to get even greater until it the curve flatten out around 25-26psi. Some compressor wheels don't reach maximum efficiency until even higher than 25-26psi. Usually the larger turbos and compressor wheels, don't like to make much power at lower pressure. Most generic gt45's use a 69mm/98mm compressor wheel and a 88/77.5 turbine wheel. They are not small turbos, they have made well over the 600hp they are advertised to make. I have seen these turbos make over 800 Wheel hp(920Crank HP@15% drivetrain loss) I would think the engine would make close to 800whp, if not more, at less than 25psi. Using his 33hp per psi, it would only need another 6psi@33hp/psi=200hp. That would push it past 800whp@21psi.
these are not whp numbers-they are flywheel hp numbers and I have maxed this turbo out previously
When is the 3800 big bang going to take place? I would love to see that.
I think the difference can be attributed to the spark timing being a little conservative naturally aspirated. If you added timing, you wouldn't make more power NA, but the boosted combo wanted timing.
the na had the timing that made max power
Are any of the 3800 better than others to start off with? Are there any aluminum heads available for those?
Heads are getting used now. = 600hp. Also the hp per psi will get even larger as the compressor gets into its efficiency island.
First thing to die when you turn it up will be a piston crown, but you will have to lean on it. It'll start knocking but still run fine lol.
I'd say the first thing to go will be the ringlands. Factory cast pistons were never designed to handle the rigors of boost. The second there is any detonation or if the ring ends butt up, the ringlands crack. Forged pistons are best for boosted applications.
@@moedigzz ive had first hand experiance with L67 crowns breaking off. They last for some time though. Have run 9sec 1/4 on the cast pistons and the engine is still going.
Hey I’m intrested in the gen 5 supercharger and the intercooler
Hello how are you today?
I love your videos and I am an big fan of the v6 parshal to the buick 3.8l or 4.1l have an few of these older engines I like what you have done with the newer engines I. The 3.8l form but what if you added boost to the camaro 3.4l v6 chevys 60* engineer even the hated 2.8l?
Juat wondering hope this sparked your wonder some to see.
I would also like to ask when you did the fwd intake inside comparison's from high to low why not add boost to that test I thing the low inside would make the best power but what about the rpm of these inside high mid and low what makes what where via each
Did you happen to compare backpressure? As others have said, it could be that the turbo is in a more efficient island on the map. Could also be the porting on the heads, as I've seen turbulent ports improve at different depressions. Obviously boost *could* fix a turbulent port. You've tested E85 enough to know what it'll do, so I'll leave that one to you.
Have you done one comparing the power gains from installing a turbo setup on the NA block vs on the SC block?
that is just added compression-worth 3-4% per 1 full point of na power
@@richardholdener1727 there's a ton of factors you could be comparing by doing an L36/L67 comparison. The peak power at various levels of boost is an obvious one, but also failure points. How many psi can each block run before internal failure? How many psi can each block run on 97 before knock? Which one burns through a gallon of gasoline faster at simulated highway conditions (~2.5k rpm, ~14% load)?
I don't have knock detection-that is best done in a vehicle
Curious how the supercharged Ford 3800 from the Thunderbird SC compare to the GM supercharged 3800? How different are they? hmm...
same rotor pack-different housing (inlet and outlet)
@@richardholdener1727 Thanks! That Thunderbird super coupe is an under-appreciated vehicle... That can be had still for a very good price... I think it will likely become a collectible.. thanks for the info... I'm all about the budget builds lol..
I'm not sure exactly I'm talking about I've got a 1997 Pontiac firebird trans am and I've been told that certain body's won't accept a V8. Is it that it won't accept the V8 or it can't or is it that some people just don't want to go through the trouble of modifying certain parts in the engine well to have clearance for a V8 or is there another issue that I don't completely no please get back to me with information thank you
the firebird came factory with v8s-it will fit
The engine is running at its volumetric efficiency point. And also the turbo is running at its most efficient point on its compressor map. That is where you get the extra gain from. Just my theory
Pretty sure these engines were used in the Grand Prix, with a supercharger. Did they just use the same engine in the lesabres, etc, as NA?
THEY HAVE NA AND BOOSTED VERSIONS, BOTH SERIES 2 AND SERIES 3
I plan on running a ZZP turbo kit on my 2004 Monte Carlo SS with the L67 engine. ZZP offers a L67 to a L26 conversion kit with the HV3 insert. Is it safe to say that I'll make less power in low and mid range ? It looks like you lost power with the HV3 insert. I don't know what my options will be. I dont want to loose
power.
making the runners shorter in any motor will decrease low-speed power
Hi Richard, what would I need to do to get a l36 upper and l36 lower to replace my blower and l67 lower intake? Since the l67 injectors are in the heads, what mods would I need to do to get the l36 intake to work on my l67? Thx.@@richardholdener1727
I think all the mods took full advantage of the efficiency of the turbo setup. What compression ratio did it have? Also are any of the parts still available?
And do you kno if they will fit on a series 1?
blower and pulleys are avail
Could heads exhaust flow compared to intake, percentage wise, being very good along with 10 extra degrees @ .050 on cam have something to do with it?
Definitely interested in parts compatible with 07 grand am 3800 not sure what gen
your grand am came with a 3800? I thought those were 3400
@richardholdener1727 nope definitely 3800 might be grand prix dont recall i get em mixed up alot newer body style tho base model not gt or nun like that no turbo or S.C
Did you ever get the "big bang" on this engine done? Thanks for the great videos!
not yet
This video series convinced me to buy a 3800 series II with absolutely no idea what I'm going to do with it. Any suggestions!?
Throw it in a gutted Oldsmobile or any of the same chassis family. They're dirt cheap.
Do you have anything for the3 3.8 sc engines I am interested in anything you may have I have series3 supercharger
It would be interesting to do a hp/ lb of boost comparison on the blowers to illustrate the supercharger’s inefficiency and power consumption.
that vid is up
I think the engine works well under boost because of the cam timing is working better for volumetric efficiency when there is more air mass flowing in the runners.
It could also be more thermally efficient with the higher cylinder pressures. These are the only two explanations I can come up with
Aw no more testing on the 3800? Was hoping to see it on a VSR 7875 etc.
that is coming
Hmm … is there a “6pack” n/a set-up for a v6?
Hey Richard I was wondering if you could do a indepth video on what changing spark plug to a complete modern coil on plug ignition system would look like on the dyno with high end spark.
it adds nothing
I think it was diyautotune that did a experiment years ago, starting with a distributor and signal from the distrubutor to the ecu. Then added a trigger wheel.
Under very high acceleraion rate in a dyno the same engine with the added trigger wheel gained some power. Under steady state the power would be the same.
The important thing is that you have a strong enough spark.
Many COP systems don't have very strong spark from the factory.
Hey love the content... i had a 94 cavalier gt with a 3.8 rwd set up with a 6 speed behind it. Thinking about putting one in a pontiac solstice... what do you think?
lots of work but yes
Can you do a junkyard 4t80 swap video? No sense in doing this with a 4t65
@RichardHoldener grab an L36 or L26 with the higher compression and see if N/A HP is better?
it will be-but then turbo power will be up too
@JPL Performance the rods between the series 2 L67 and L36 are identical. The rods in any series 3 are powder forged and slightly stronger but only by a small amount