The Problem with All-Positive Dog Training
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A year and a half ago I got my German Shepherd, Beavis, he picked up on all his tricks in an hour max. His come when called was solid, but there was one thing I could never fix... he LOVES cats. He’d never hurt one, he likes being around them and licking them, but the moment that cat ran it was like I didn’t exist. I tried for a year and a half with all positive methods like limiting his freedom, treat training, positive reinforcement, anything you could think of I tried it, but it NEVER worked, he was just as bad as he was a year ago. So two days ago I had him with me trying so hard to train him to stop chasing cats... when he got away from me and ran right into the road, no amount of calling him in a loving voice, squeaking his toy (he loves squeak balls), or yelling his name stopped him it’s like I wasn’t there. Lucky I live on a county road so about 60% of the time it’s empty, but I’ve seen people doing 60 through it and they can’t stop on a dime for my dog running out to the middle of the road after a cat. After I got him back I was just about to break down because no training method that Zak George or Victoria Stilwell swore by were working, then I decided to switch, no more Mrs. Nice Girl it was time to go to the supposed “dark side”, I went straight to Amazon and ordered an E Collar and researched the best way to use them. When it came in I got him used to it by training with him for about an hour to come when it vibrates, and that when it makes a beeping sound that he’s doing good (like a clicker), and he picked up on it immediately. So the moment of truth came, I took him to the back yard and he immediately saw his favorite cat to chase and he took off, I vibrated it first but he didn’t listen then I gave him a little shock... I’ve never seen him stop so quickly to give me his attention. He stopped MID CHASE to come to me. In one day an E Collar solved a problem I had been dealing with and stressing over for over a year. In the end though I’m glad I waited so long, because I know one day I’m gonna get someone saying; “iSnT tHat aBusiVe” to his collar and I can tell them this story. I’m sorry it was so long, but thanks for reading!
@Anjolie Cantu The positive-only's who condemn even the thought of using an e-collar have gravely missed the concept of "training", and it's because they've bought into the propaganda that all other training methods are barbaric.
Somewhere along the line, they were told that (old school) or any training methods that use prong collars, e-collars, or any other training tool also believe in hitting dogs, alpha-rolling dogs, screaming, yelling, beating, whipping dogs, etc. when nothing is further from the truth. Cruel people do those things, not good trainers.
Any training tool can become abusive if improperly used.
The positive-only methods you trained your GSD with worked for a long time, until they couldn't, despite your trying to make them work. They almost got your dog seriously injured, if not killed. Just because a car didn't run him down that day doesn't mean you (and he) would be so lucky the next time. With his love of chasing cats, there would be a next time.
Was it more barbaric to continue on and take your chances with him getting run over by a car, or to use the e-collar on him? Which method is more abusive?
The e-collar, used properly like you used it, SAVED his life! Certainly, your using it on your beloved dog didn't change his love for you; it certainly increased his respect for you; it didn't turn him into a shaking nerve bag; and the fur around his neck didn't burn off and leave permanent scarring to his skin.
"Training" involves not getting stuck on one method. A trainer who refuses to look at alternative methods while only utilizing one is not a good trainer. Training means using whatever method works best for that individual dog.
Some dogs will stop whatever they're doing with just a stern look. Another could be hit in the head with a 2X4 and won't be fazed at all -- maybe just look at you and say "What? Stop bothering me!" (No, I don't condone using 2x4s - just making a point!) Giving a stern look to your GSD gleefully chasing cats didn't faze him. Squeak toy, nothing. Throwing a filet mignon in front of him would not have mattered. You had to use the "2x4" to get his attention and it didn't harm him at all.
Your dog is lucky to have you as his owner. I'm relieved your story has a happy ending, and it's really a good lesson for anyone who is willing to learn something. Thanks for sharing.
Ma'am you might telling me what Brand you bought, I got this exact same issues with my American Bully, she loves chasing cats on our walks, she is usually a little soldier with commands and not aggressive at all, but love she loves the cats
You don’t praise and reward your child for NOT lighting a house on fire...
Much like raising a child. Providing consistent boundaries, and consequences for wrong choices.
Truer words have never been spoken. We raised out 3 kids like that and they turned out great. I was raised like that and I think it's a time tested way of doing it.
Dogs are not humans and if people keep thinking like that, they will become worse and worse at training. Punitive training has been proven as outdated and inefective in the long run. Punitive training confuses dogs and can even traumatize them. Dog training and behavioral science has inevated and we now know that punitive training is the much worse method than positive training.
@@Eye_Que1725 Lol only if you do it wrong, it depends on the dog, Ive never seen a dog that was trained right with posotive or balanced turn out sad and scared, as long as your dog is trained, healthy, happy, who cares.
@@Eye_Que1725 Notice how you just assumed non-all-positive is 'punitive'. Did you even listen to the video ?
Andrew, Perfect response, and that's the way I've trained my dogs. I love Rottweilers, and looking to adopt/ buy another male Rotty. I live in the U.P. of MI. --Disabled Vietnam Vet: 68-70. Email: tschuckman@aol.com
Purely positive dog training is just as bad as never saying "no" to children.
A nail was hit right on the head there! I'm just now finding out that my dog is responding better to child training methods then that positive training bull shit. Zac George can kiss my ass.
Lil Dragon this is ridiculous! You can and you have to train your dog to the command “No!”. But like with children, you can teach them No! Or “Stop it” without hurting them.
And we see how well that played out over the last couple decades. Hello pronouns. Hello trigger-warnings. Hello genderstudies. Hello Antifa.
Amen to that right there , I just got a great dane puppy and hes getting out of control with this positive shit, people these days will put dogs over kids and let the dogs get out of control
@@scottfurlong5475 Zak "trained" my dog in a meeting and kept calling her aggressive, took her to a balnced trainer and found out she was just reactive and needed some obedience, not just tricks, and I was embarrassed, she wouldn't do it without a treat, I was scared of the collar at first but it w as my only hope. Dont trust Zak, Inirta isn't trained at all, she only knows a lot if tricks, and to wait for stuff.
Ed is spot on. Anyone who has not worked with dogs who have dominance or aggression, and instead recommend to clients to PUT THEM DOWN, are the positive only dog trainers who don't get it, wear blinders... KILL/recommend euthanize but never give a dog correction. These people should exit the dog training arena.
Please understand that they are bad dog trainers and trainers that recommend killing a dog cuz they don't know how to train it. THESE DOG TRAINERS DO NOT REPRESENT THE POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT TRAINERS THAT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.
@Marcel Ghabbar Both of my dogs are reactive as well, we are useing positive reinforcement, its worked so well for us. :)
Really because many certified FF and LIMA trainers successfully work with aggression cases all the time, anyone who suggests euthanasia probably isn’t that great of a trainer regardless of methods.
This is spot on 100% wisdom. No parent, no teacher worthy of the name, would bring up a child to be a good citizen with zero correction. No respected philosophy or religion in human history has eschewed correction, till today. Likewise, no on-the-job trainer would ignore the opportunity to correct bad practice. It is why we mammals are sensitive to correction, as EVERY MOTHER DOG reveals in her frequent mothering actions (growl, snarl, nip, bite) though she'd die to protect her pups. Like our own human mothers, their love is not compromised by giving correction. Correction, in moderation, helps the learner child or pup to be safe and secure in the strong and caring leadership of the parent or owner. So this video says it for me too. If love is your guide, dare to be intuitive and avoid the dogma of theorists who load you with guilt but are not there when your pup dives towards a moving car in the road. Of course rewards are the ideal where possible, but the generalisable word "NO!" - meaning "Stop, now think about it and correct YOURSELF" and harmless in the right hands, when the learner's intelligence is being respected - is indispensable, for kids and dogs, as over 40 years of owning dogs has proved countless times to me and to millions of others with happy, reliable and balanced, rounded dogs over many centuries.
walshamite, dogs don't learn the same way human children do. Why, oh why, do people try to train their dogs the same way they'd raise a child? They are not the same, do not think the same, do not reason the same, don't form associations the same way, don't communicate the same way, dogs don't speak any language humans speak and because of that it's impossible to explain to them why they are being punished or "corrected", etc... You can explain to a child that he's getting spanked because he broke the window. You can't explain to a dog he's getting electrocuted because he barked at the mailman. In a case like that, you have a very good chance of making the dog fearful of or aggressive towards the mailman if every time he sees the mailman he gets shocked. You have NO way to explain to the dog that he's being shocked for barking at the mailman. I don't care how long you've owned dogs. That doesn't make you educated or knowledgeable about how dogs learn. I've owned and driven cars for 40 years. That doesn't make me an automotive engineer or even a basic gas station mechanic.
@@guitarman3001 You don't sound very"educated or knowledgeable" yourself. You sound like someone on the positive only theory bandwagon trying to sound intelligent in your dog "knowledge". You don't have to explain to a dog why he's being corrected, as he wouldn't understand that anyway. He has to learn not to do that unwanted behavior full stop. Treat training your dog is good to a point, especially with pups as they are easier to mold, but sooner or later you run into undesirable behavior that you can't 'feed' the dog out of. Dogs are usually more than happy to do the right thing, but they have to know what that is. They need right and wrong. Many years of training experience here and the timing of a correction is key to success, that's how they learn not to do the undesirable behavior. It ain't rocket science.
there’s a whole body of scientific research on how P+ and R- methods are not only less effective but more detrimental in the long term compared to R+ and P- methods but go off I guess...
@@kevinhughes8441 you’re not very educated either of you think physical corrections are necessary at all
@@harrymolloy823 Haha Okay then.
I want to thank you for this. In training my tiny little 10 pound Dachshund, who was very very smart and SUPER SUPER willful, I was chastised repeatedly for training him with a correction collar, but without it he would NOT listen, not even a little. On the flip side, my other Dachshund, dumb as a post, is so attached to me and focused on me that I cannot remember ever having to physically correct her...a no was always sufficient. Each dog is an individual, every single dog needs to understand that "no, means NO". Whatever the appropriate level of punishment and reward is for that is what is required.
I’ve been around these all positive trained dogs and they are a nightmare.
Amen !!
I know this lady Victoria when she said they have to kill a dog because she think positively with let the dog know their part in the family. When your babe child insult you will you not punish or you will give it toffee 😹
Nice to see someone with common sense.
I just want to see the All positive vids of de-escalating red zone dogs and rehabilitating back to a well balanced life and with their owners again.... I can't find one. There are many trainers, who call themselves Rewards Based or Balanced Trainers out there putting their vids out for people to see, mistakes and all. It's a learning process. No All Positive vids!!! NON . Please someone post one. Respect Ed Frawley and all his team and trainers associated with him. Happy to pay into them and their courses ! Thank you guys!
_'I just want to see the All positive vids of de-escalating red zone dogs'_
There's no such thing as 'red zone dogs'. It's a made up term and describes nothing about the actual behaviour.
Seems like you've been watching too much DW.
Red zone just means that the dogs are dangerous enough that things as they are now must be completely stopped. The term is perfectly fine to describe a high level of aggression.
Seems like you've been watching too much Positively Unicorn Training Inc.
Semantics my dear...get a grip. And no one can point me in the direction that I have requested....Nobody. ANd before the idiots come on (again) and tell me to do my own research, I have! Nothing...so if you're so sure about the all positive BS and can put your money where your mouth is....Please offer me one of the vids etc..that can show all pos at work with the red zone, till then I'll stick with the reality of balanced training. I don't believe in the mantra of all positive training i.e. Death before Discomfort.
What is a red zone dog? You cannot use pain, fear, and force to fix aggression, which itself is almost always based on a fear component.
andrea cowen-richards Red Zone. Lmao. It’s called putting a dog that is scared of something in the same room with it and expecting the dog to not be aggressive. Lol. If you were scared of spiders and someone put you in a room full of spiders you would be a ‘red zone’ human.
I take the positive approach training to bond with my puppy and have fun....however if a puppy cross the line in a litter it gets corrected. Correct me if I'm wrong but I do not see it as rocket science. You reward the behaviour you like, and correct undesirable behaviour.....patience and consistently....?
We don't correct puppies, it is unproductive to training and a relationship. You are better off redircting into something other than what he is doing. Don't get me wrong - this can be difficult at times but it is more effective than correcting a pup.
@@LeerburgDogTraining My Lab is 6 months old and I'm in the process of training for loose leash walking. After 4 months of positive only training and redirection, I've bonded very closely to her and she sits, lays down, gives paws, takes food/treats gently, comes to me, releases, rings the bell to potty and willingly goes to her kennel for bedtime when I say 'bedtime' but she consistently steals wash cloths & towels and pulls really hard when walking and I haven't been able to 'positively' correct these behavior issues. I believe it is time for corrective training and you are saying not right now? Could you please clarify? I tried corrective training tonight while out for a walk and it worked. The last 15 minutes of a 45 minute walk, she was walking loose leash. Though I must add, I was not very popular with a particular lady that was driving by at the time of the corrective nose slap. After seeing me for only 30 seconds of my 40+ year life, she labelled me an abusive dog owner and told me to stop beating the dog. I was not beating my dog and I did tell her it was corrective training but that just made things worse. Long story short, this method is not popular but works.
This guy speaks the truth. Pumping your dog full of “rewards” is totally ineffective.
Leerburg ,
Thank you for sharing and I totally agree with you.
After doing positive only for two years I can tell you no way. I have a male intact 180lb Newfie, all I got was a dog that listened only when he wanted. I’ve been told be more exciting use better treats, I even was told to use a gentle leader and fractured my eye socket after getting dropped to the ground. Every single book I read told me the same thing, and nothing could stop him from say running at other dogs. I had people bash me online telling me the dog needed a new owner because I used and e collar(mind you I have gone through a training prg)
Point blank until I took charge and led him and he knew the boundaries it was a disaster! I don’t understand how other dogs issue corrections to each other but we can’t??? Do I think people should be trained to use ecollars and prongs, yes! But the dog can be abused by a frustrated owner screaming at them because the only means they have is food or a toy.
I never liked the idea of all positive (P+ and R+), it seems so stressful and complicated. I like to use a mix of R+ and P- but try to prevent or redirect bad behaviors before they can even happen. We've had pretty great results with that! :) If all else fails we use positive interrupters (any positively conditioned noise or word)
Couldn't agree more Ed. I responsibly use some level of correction in all of the dogs that I train.
Thank you for making a dose of reality available to the public.
thank you kindly Sir for the excellent video.
much respect.
Took my puppy to all positive puppy training big mistake didn't ask or give opportunity to talk about puppies individual needs just keep giving the treats if unwanted behaviour still occurs not giving treats fast enough My puppy was staved so food very important to him and resource guarded at times All dogs are individuals so different things work for different dogs He's 3 now doing great used my own way mostly fun odd the occasional word NO
Powerful video...thank you
If there was a spectrum of dog training you'd have the "alpha-dog" trainers on the one end who do mostly pinning, kicking, hitting, helicoptering etc. and on the other end you would have the "all-positive" trainers who will ignore any and all negative behavior of the dog and just give them cookies all day long. Its better to find a place somewhere in the middle of the spectrum where you learn where it is the right time and right amount of force to give a correction and when and exactly how to use positive reinforcement. And honestly the positive reinforcement training works with some dogs, but it's very difficult for the average person to implement with dogs that have a strong personality. What I wish is that good trainers like the leerburg trainers would make it more affordable to buy their products. You can buy an all-positive training book or DVD for 10 bucks on amazon but Leerburg is hundreds of dollars for just 1 DVD. That's ridiculous.
+Bryan “Ironman” Stark I had no idea this Leerburg charges that much! Absolutely, it's ridiculous. Greedy, much? If this guy cared so much about his dogs, and getting his message out to the public, lower the price so everyone can afford it and not just the rich folks that have no problem spending that amount for a training video.
+Bryan “Ironman” Stark Leerburg training DVDs are not "hundreds of dollars" - the majority of our DVDs range from $40 to $65. leerburg.com/dvd.htm We also offer discounts on sets and sales throughout the year on our DVDs and equipment.
Ok then I'm talking about the "sets" that are hundreds. I like the idea of your streaming videos though.
I still have not found one DVD on an all positive trainer de-escalating a red zone dog. not one. and I've searched. Not even a snippet of a DVD of an all positive trainer doing this. Someone gave me a. bullshit answer that it's a process. No shit Sherlock. Well let's see 'some' of the process till then keep your empty comments to yourself
andrea true "red zone" is not very common. But anyway, I like most of the methods I've picked up from the leerburg folks, I just think they are more expensive than other trainers.
This is gold!
I just got banned from a reddit sub for recommending my vet's PROFESSIONAL dog training method which happens to be saying NOOO while gently shaking your puppy's scruff. REALLY? Is there a sub in all reddit about dog training that doesn't suck?
I 100% agree with this video. Five years ago I adopted a 7 month old beagle/boxer pup from the animal shelter. He had had no training, and he thought he was the boss. He was big and very strong, and very strong-willed. He'd growl at me, bite me and my kids whenever he didn't get what he wanted, and I knew something had to be done or I'd end up having to put him down due to his pretty scary aggression. Due to my inexperience with this type of dog, I started off with positive training only, and his aggression did not improve at all. I got some help from an experienced dog owner and things changed. I continued to show him lots of love and reward him with treats. However, I was also very stern and I corrected him with a firm grip on his neck and pinned him down whenever he would become aggressive. Things improved very quickly with his aggression. It still took months and months of patience and consistency as he still was a puppy, but now I'm happy to say he is 5 and he's my best friend and the most well-behaved dog I've ever owned.
Thank you sir.
This video is timeless and still very relevant and always will be, thanks for your time and passion for the dog 🙏🏻
I have trained three of my dogs throughout my life using the Koehler Method with great success. Three very different dogs, a Rottweiler, a Jack Russell, and now a mix rescue(part Schnauzer/Boxer. All responded incredibly well though each needed different levels of correction with the Jack taking the longest to train, the mix the most tractable.The "tid-bit" training technique and all "dogs want to please" theories can't be trusted because it robs the dog of what he has in common with all God's creatures: the right to experience consequences of his own actions. During & after training none of my dogs "hated me" or were "scared of the lead", all became calmer, happier, more confident members of the family that could enjoy going anywhere the family went, fully welcome at family and friends houses or vacations. NO BRIBES REQUIRED!
To me it sounds like your main point is that a strictly, positevly trained dog will at some point fail under distraction. A good positive trainer works with distractions before trying to impliment their training, especially before going off leash. I believe there's always a way to stay positive. Those instances where a shock collar is needed to break attention, could be altogether avoided by recognising your dog's current understanding and limitations. Corrections do exist in real positive dog training, over corrections and unnecessary corrections do not. PetSmart doesn't have positive trainers, they have salesmen... I will be checking out your site though, as I love to take in all the training information I can.
I believe he's talking about people who really believe that absolutely /no/ corrections are allowed, which are at odds with your statement: Corrections do exist in real positive dog training. And I've met people like that. They will slam you if you think of saying 'no' to your dog. They slam you for jerking the leash (martingale collar or buckle collars). I believe for all-positive training to truly work, you need to be lucky enough to have a dog that is naturally obedient and a shitton of time on your hands. Most people don't have that, yet they tout the all-positive training methods, because it sounds nice, but in actual fact their dog is untrained because 1. they can't bear to make their dog 'suffer' 2. they don't have the time nor patience for a truly all-positive training. So, while in theory all-positive training does work, it's not very practical. I'd rather a dog suffer from leash-jerks for 2-3 days than be constantly straining on a leash their whole lives.
I agree, a good positive trainer proofs all trained behaviours with distractions to produce reliable behaviours that your dog will do under pretty much all circumstances. Dogs are great at making associations, but not so good at generalizing, which is why it's important to proof behaviours in all different environments and with all common distractions to ensure reliability and consistency. I think all-positive training is completely possible if people put the effort in. I think in pretty much all situations (other than emergencies) corrections in the form of positive punishment are not needed. Biddity, positive trainers can use corrections in the form negative punishment, so removing a pleasant stimuli when a dog misbehaves, for example removing yourself from play if your dog gets too rough, or removing him from the room for a minute or two if he is too excitable around guests. This to your dog is still a correction, its removing something they enjoy when they are doing something undesirable without causing physical or psychological pain or distress.
leahfresh
Nailed it, Leah. Succinct response that basically explains how "all-positive" is a strawman from the dinosaur crowd.
I don't think "all positive" is actually possible for many dogs, but +R and -P together is totally possible.
The leerburg site is good, Brandon King. Even if you're a reward based trainer, there's loads of good information.
Please keep in mind Ed and Cindy both breed and deal with high drive, high energy, and working-type GSD's and Malinois. These dogs are a breed apart from the typical pet dogs that don't have the drive, the nerves, the temperaments, etc. that these working dogs have.
Our experiences with our few working line dogs have shown us that dogs that are "hard" (in nerves, temperament, etc., the type that Ed and Cindy have) view a correction as a correction and nothing more. A correction is taken as that, and they go on...but some pet type dogs are weaker in nerves and would view it as a personal assault. (This isn't a slam at pet type dogs, as we have, and have had, and probably WILL have this type of dog in the future. We love them and cherish them...but the nerves and drives and over all temperament between them and the WL dogs and the dogs bred for real work and civil work are TOTALLY different. If a dog bred for street or civil work got emotionally shaken up at a harsh voice...like one of our current pet dogs does....that K-9 would be unsuitable for street work!)
Cheers to you. Hope you've visited the site and enjoyed, if the training articles don't suit you at least check out the articles on feeding your dog an all natural diet! =)
100% agree with this video.
Sadly many dog owners are straight up mental. I'm surrounded by them in my neighborhood. They're the "all positive" types and treat their dogs as equals. They're dogs are undisciplined, and rather useless. This mentality that many dog owners have, has turned me off to dogs almost all my life because I was continuously surrounded by these types of people who simply felt it was OK to let their dogs do as they please.
Once I started hunting I was introduced to gun dogs and oh man how my opinion changed. I got to see what incredible animals dogs can be. It was literally a new awakening for me - so inspiring. The guy that trains most of the gun dogs at my gun club and who has a stellar reputation for what he does, uses plenty of negative reinforcement (including shock collars if necessary) along with positive. I tell you these dogs are the greatest animals on this planet. They love their owners unequivocally and are happy because they are put to work doing what they love.
100% positive training is a pipe dream. It's absolutely a scam. It doesn't work for humans and sure as hell doesn't work for animals. I agree with Ed. Many of these organizations know better, but they have an easy mark (la la land dog owners) and are cashing in big time.
purgeyou agree totally
Those are just crappy owners, not positive trainers in general. Positive does not equal permissive.
You must be confused, saying 'silly people who own dogs that train 'all positive' as no person having a dog uses all positive training. It is impossible, every dog owner uses the word 'no' or 'bad tone' when a dog exhibits naughty behaviour.
You must remember, most dog owners are families, and families just want a fairly well behaved dog that fits in their family unit and enjoys a daily romp and walk. Maybe some outdoor activities.. They don't wish to train their dog to heel, tricks and agility. They just want to give them a loving home and to have close relationships with their family members. Their idea of what a dog should be is very different from the ideas you or I may have.
Also you opinion of how 'perfectly fulfilled' the dogs you met in that field may well of been extremely happy with their training and kennels but i have met many family dogs that have very fulfilled and happy lives in their close family units. They experience lots of one to one connections and activity around them all day long.
I have 3 dogs that is more intensely trained than most peoples dogs but also i chose a family environment for them, This is doable if you have not too many and have the time.
I do dislike people that have dogs and dont have responsibility for them, no time, with no training at all and then rehome them as they are 'untrained' completely with no boundaries.
So true, but at the same time we have to watch our dogs don't push us to trigger a bad side within us, I have seen it happen to almost everyone. I love watching Stonnie Dennis he uses positive but he knows how to train any dog and teach anyone to teach a dog for any purpose, even Malinois for guarding and hunting. That is trainig, I am not into tools, but I also recognize the limitations of owners that can not deal with their dog and need a good trainer that knows tools and their use carefully but only for limited purpose otherwise that dog needs a new owner. Prong collars though will damage the neck/spine/thyroid, but a safe e-collar can do the trick. These things should be last resorts, the problem like you said is the owners. I have trained for decades and if most owners tried to train their dog for service work they would have well behaved dogs. Obviously those for hunting and guarding would be a bit different, but they should be controlled to be taken anywhere otherwise again the owner needs to go. I also take exception to the police dogs, as they are horrible with other dogs, few of them are trained to respect the surroundings and actually end up attacking service dogs endangering the disabled. A good police dog can turn it on and turn it off, it takes knowledgeable trainers, again see Stonnie Dennis. God help us all.
Nailed it. These people just want to believe that the world is all sunshine and rainbows. Unfortunately life isn’t that simple. Sadly the real victims are the dogs who are forced to live a life with no discipline or structure from their ignorant owners.
Balanced dog training is the way I see things. Same with human child.
Richard Patry you are exactly right!
Very well stated, loved this video, so much information was said.
Excellent, excellent video!! Worth its weight in gold.
Thank you for speaking the truth!
Excellent! Thank you Ed.
In terms of the four quadrants, positive trainers practice both positive reinforcement AND negative punishment. Yes, we reward good behaviors to increase the likelihood of wanted behaviors reoccurring, and we do this in a variety ways - food rewards, toy rewards, life rewards (going for a walk), praise, affection, attention, etc. And yes, we also remove things that dogs want in order to reduce unwanted behaviors - taking away a treat or a toy as well as utilizing other ways to get the behavior we want - ignoring, interrupting or redirecting behaviors we do not like onto alternate behaviors that encourage the dog’s success.
Excellent video Mr Fraley
Right! So right!
love the way you train!
ando the way you understand dogs
Agree with you 100%. My motto is Dogs, kids and horses need discipline and boundaries.
But I would whip them...and did with all 4 of mine and guess what. They are all well adjusted, very successful and respectful to others. Not once did they have a single mark on them or lasting pain. But it was a temporary, painful correction...no different than a shock collar. I put shock collars on myself to know what the various levels feel like. All pain is gone as soon as the electricity stops. It's a very good tool. Like anything it can be abused, just like parents can whip their kids and abuse them but responsible dog owners like responsible parents do not cause long term pain.
My dad used a switch on me and guess what, I learned and am better for it. These positive only trainers and the same folks who feel "time outs" are the best way to discipline kids and if you whip your kids you are abusing them. It's complete nonsense!
No, but you'd spank them, put them in time out, or ground them, the list goes on. Which is a much more adverse correction than a shock or prong collar in my opinion.
Also, after the dog learns what the shock collar is, most trainers only need to use the vibrate, or beep noise to get a dogs attention, which doesn't hurt one bit.
Different neck build; cannot handle even a choke. Electric, yes, should be able to handle.
+Douglas Tisdale I was spanked as a child and it didn't work on me, it just made me aggressive, scream, and fight back so that all my parents could do when I got like that was lock me in my room until I calmed down. Eventually the spankings didn't even hurt anymore (I got used to the pain) and I used to deliberately misbehave to bait my parents into spanking me for attention. One of my teachers figured out the best way to control me - he used to offer me a reward for good behaviour (if you do all your work you can go sit in the reading corner and read until the rest of the class finishes) - I used to finish my work before all the other kids every single day with that teacher because the reward was so motivating (I LOVED reading).
Douglas Tisdale, The problem with your abusive training methods is that dogs don't speak any language that humans speak so there is no way to explain to them what they are being electrocuted for. They also don't form associations the same way humans do. When you give a dog a correction such as a shock, you have no way of knowing what the dog may be associating the correction with. Often, very often, it's not what you think, and it leads to unwanted behaviors like fear and aggression. You are also viewing the situation through a very narrow minded and limited perspective, so you are missing a lot of what the dog may be perceiving. It's because of people like you that I have plenty of clients. They call me because they tried a correction based or "balanced" trainer who ended up seriously f*cking up their dog, so they call me to help them fix it. What could have initially been fixed with just a couple hundred dollars worth of training sessions now ends up costing them several thousand. Stop abusing dogs. I don't want those types of clients. No dog should ever be subjected to those training methods.
Owned and trained my own dogs for over 40 years. The best training results and the most fun for both of us is when I am the benevolent dictator.
A dog who loves you will do almost anything that is asked and will be happy to do it if the dog can understand what is to be done.
Minimal corrections should be used, as they will make the dog suspicious of the owner. I use an E collar, so any correction is not associated directly with me but to the act of the dog.
I have seen cases were dogs stop listening to their owner as soon as they run out a treats I use positive in negative training with my dog She's a German shepherd it can get really dangerous if I lose control of her
Great advice
I have a 10 month old, 57kg (125 pound) great dane adolescent.
I tried the "all positive" approach with her in the beginning, lots of treats, praise and more distraction rather then correction methods. I admit, we got far with her nervousness and fear towards strangers but when she hit 8-9 months and her behaviour became more serious, especially with her growing leash reactivity towards other dogs and growing lack of focus! i said enough of the nice way, lets do the strict way!
We found an amazing trainer, who walked us through using an ecollar correctly and i am already seeing results. She is focused on US when walking, heels almost perfectly to a tee and although we have not tried around other dogs i have super high hopes. She just "got it" right away! Enough messing around with treats basically begging her to stop being distracted just a few corrections and she understood. I still reward her good behaviour or when she does something right to really reinforce "yes thats what i wanted you to do!" and we still clicker train daily for new tricks but the ecollar has really got the message across to her!
Its a SHAME these methods are frowned upon because really, not every dog, in every situation will require the same training (as we discovered the hard way with our dog) some dogs just need that type of training to "get through" to them!
Would you put an ecollar on a child though? Ecollars to me are bloody awful. Shocking an animal. The are better ways. It's just learning through fear.
@@nyxturner2191 A shock collar can beep, vibrate, and shock.
Do you think its possible to train two puppies at the same time.
Thank you!!!
Love what you say about sea world!
The only downfall of positive only training is that it requires a controlled environment for a really long time, even between training sessions, to avoid giving the dog a chance to learn an alternative behavior to the desired one. In theory, if you owned a city and used that as a training ground, you really could achieve anything without ever needing a correction.
You need a controlled environment regardless of the training method.
It takes the same amount of control to reward good behaviour than it does to punish bad ones.
Good video.
I used the Dick Koehler method to train my first German Shepherd Dog back in 1981. Not knowing anything at all, I bought his book, "the Dick Koehler method of Gaurd Dog Training." She was rock solid on or off the leash, and I am NO professional. You could NOT make her break a "down stay" with out my release! Dick Koehler's only positive reinforcement was praise. No clickers, no treats, just praise. I followed his instructions like a buddhist monk. It took a while, (this is not some overnight course) but Gretchen was absolutely great in obedience. I have been looking at all these "high value treat" training videos and had wondered if this is what I needed to do with my present GSD, Anna. Thanks for the heads up Mr. Frawley. I will use the same Koehler method with Anna......praise, patience that she understands what she's suppose to do, and correction.
Koehler was a pioneer, no doubt. Many methods have been derived from his. However, I would implore you with a good GSD, to explore the instructors at Leerburg. Training has come a long way since then, and you can still be balanced, and have fun methods with your dog. There's nothing wrong with food in training, it's merely a tool to use while learning, and it has rapid results, and makes for a happy worker. With a GSD, trainers often use tugs, and toys, and the dog's drives. Check out Mike Ellis, and Forrest Micke. And Meagan Karnes of the Collared Scholar has some amazingly good posts on her blog! I love to have great obedience, and great attitude and relationship, too. I don't prefer the robotic, methodical look of those older old school methods. GSDs are the best!!
I think you mean William Koehler. I don't know who Dick Koehler is.
O.K. William (Dick) Koehler.
Actually, I think it's me that's in the wrong. Dick was William's son... So I apologise, you were right the first time.
Agree
I stand by what this guy says 100%! I’ve been working with dogs for a few years. 5 to be exact. More if you consider living with a dog. I’ve loved dogs my whole life. All it all as far as training goes it depends on the dog. Some dogs need dominance and some need positive reinforcement. I’ve worked in a doggy daycare for a few years. One being Petsmart and one being a local owned daycare. I’ve dealt with dogs who do worse when you try n dominate them, they’ll just focus their aggression on you & try to bite you vs other dogs but are angels if you have treatsand say hey come here. Then there’s other dogs who won’t listen for shit unless you dominate and say yo, I’m boss & you’re gonna listento me. So it all depends.
Amen. I almost lost hope in people, internet is being flooded by all-positive fools
Dogs are fuckin smart. They can be trusted to understand and accept discipline and negative reinforcement
amen
Great and logical of course! But what if I dont want to use prong collar, how can I teach my dog there will be consequences when they don’t behave off leash
When people have specific training questions we recommend that they go to our website and post those questions in the ASK CINDY on the front page of leerburg.com . Cindy has been training dogs since she was a teenager and has competed in several dog sports at a regional and national level. She was also a vet tech and owned a boarding/training and grooming business for many years as well as breeding working Dobermans and Belgian Malinois under the kennel name Kaiserhaus.
Questions posted to ASK CINDY are answered almost every day. They are also recorded in our systems if a dog owner has additional questions Cindy will review the previous Q&As and this helps her give better feedback and assistance. leerburg.com/newcontact.php
@@LeerburgDogTraining Thanks a lot ! Having a golden retriever puppy these videos and have been a gold mine!
As an older ScH / French Ring guy I’ve seen such a shift in training like Ed said in the last 15 years. I think dogs have really become trendy last 5 years. Malinois / Corsas etc are being 1st dog choices by many. Dutch shepaoare cool because they nail a decoy.... Most people have no clue about when to start training. A lot of Sharp/ Shy dogs I’m seeing lately. I push Michael Ellis to every new dog owner. Just my thoughts
Suggestion contact the guide dog schools that use all positive training, which is most of them. Guide Dogs for the Blind almost cost me a dog because of it, and ultimately they did cost me my dog
Thank you! So many of my clients come to me with uncontrollable dogs who've had positive reinforcement only training
That last sentence says it all! There is not a singel dog owner who never use corrections. They just ignore them and don´t count them because there are "only small corrections" or "exceptions".
Not true! There are owners and trainers, me included, that don't even use tools on their dog, so they are completely naked. No collars, no leashes, just training with out corrections. And no "exceptions"! I've never physically corrected my dog since learning about PR.
I have a Weimaraner it was impossible to train him only with positive training, they become treat dependent to obey, positive training doesn't solve behavior issues, now that I use prong collar my dog behaves perfect
Have an American Pitbull Terrier started positive training when he was a puppy DID NOT WORK I mean he did what I wanted but when we went somewhere outside nothing you can have a roast in your hands he will not listen I used a choke collar didn't like threw it away, clicker nothing now I have the harness that you strap in the front and back he okay with it I'm getting responses out of him. I hate when people tell oh you should do this or do that, when they own EASY TO TRAIN DOG I like the challenge. So far the only issue I have is pulling and ignoring aggressive dogs, he hates him, I do at times let him off leash only when nobody is around, I would love to see an all positive train my dog.
I meant hates them
It's seven years later and I can't help but wonder how this situation all worked out.
Well said! I have a RR and I have tried to train him pro positve only. Didn't work. Went to different pro postive trainers and school. He is 9 months old and weighs 95lbs. So when he sees another dog, he starts running, no treat, no toy no nothing can keep him from running towards another dog. I called up a so called RR experienced Trainer, who is training dogs only positive. She told me, oh better come back in 9 months. He reached puberty now, the training won't have an effect. WHAT???
So I went to a well known U.S Trainer who uses prongs and e-collars...guess what? I put both of these collars on my neck...it doesn't hurt...and my dog is walking heel and I can control him
Jasmin Breithardt I agree :) dogs need a balance of both positive and negative reinforcement, one without the other is just useless, and that is what "positive" trainers simply don't get.
+Jasmin Breithardt All positive trainers are really doing themselves a disservice by not educating themselves on applying proper corrections when necessary. I get where they are coming from but in the end, inhibitions must be established in a dog's mind to behave correctly around major distractions. That's why you see so many dogs being turned down like in your case.
My point exactly, just like corrections isn't always the answer, neither is all positive or force free. I said they are doing a disservice for not learning to apply proper corrections when necessary. Corrections has such a negative connotation to it anymore that when people use it people automatically think it's something brutal.
Ridgebacks will run over or through you if you don't have control. However, if you bond with them and using both positive and negative reinforcement. you can teach them to do anything! Opposed to everything I've read about them, I have trained them to stay in my yard without a fence, and I can send them after intruding critters and call them back at my will, not theirs... I trained them to this level for their safety...
Good luck with your RR! They are awesome dogs...
Thank you for making such complete and utter sense!! Thins have not got any better in the almost 5 years since you made this broadcast. How can we help to get through to those that WILL NOT open their minds?
Agree 100% !!!
Using positive reinforcement as your main training tool does not mean that you will never use punishment, it's impossible. But you don't have to use it even when proofing behaviors. If I'm having trouble getting my dog to pay attention, I don't correct him, I increase my rate of reinforcement and decrease my criteria. This way it becomes easier for the dog to be successful. When done correctly, you don't need to use corrections even in the proofing stages. But I could see if my dog is about to grab the turkey off the dinner table or chewing on the electrical wire, then yes, I would probably correct my dog, but then immediately redirect. Then later I would work on that behavior using reinforcement based methods. I never ever rely on corrections as my main training tool. If I'm having trouble, then I need to change what I'm doing. All you have to do is make the behavior you want more reinforcing than the distraction so the dog chooses to listen to you because that's what makes him feel good. A correction is a form of positive punishment, pretending that it isn't is just trying to make you feel better about using it. In my opinion, people that use corrections says more about the trainer then it does about the dog.
As one of my favorite dog trainers says, "it's not the struggles we face in our dog training that makes us better than another, it's the decisions we make in the midst of those struggles that makes a difference." - Susan Garret.
I completely agree with you and glad you're trying to educate people. people don't realize that +r training works because they're not willing to put in the time and work that it takes to train a dog. people like this guy make it worse because people who aren't well educated in dog training believe that +r doesn't work because not just is a "professional" saying so, but he is also saying it's a scam. this cause people to not trust +r trainer because they now believe it's a lie to get money. positive reinforcement training does work it just takes more time, although so much more can be achieved with it. And most of all +r creates a good experience strong bond between a person and their dog
+theboogyman4 I used to be an R+ trainer and it is a lie. I have saved many more dogs much more quickly by using a combination of rewards and consequences than I ever could with R+
+Laurie Yakish You just debunked your own reasoning. I quote what you were saying: "I have saved many more dogs MUCH MORE QUICKLY by using a combination of rewards and consequences than I ever could with R+". Note the words "much more quickly". This is the whole point of R+ training: you need MORE time, but you get better results, a good bond with your dog and a good feeling.
I see many dogs in the vets to be pts becuase a purely positive trainer deemed them unsafe and refused to recommend a different method of training... sick
Hi Leerburg Ent. Inc. I respect your experience and ideas, and also your colleague Michael Ellis, and others. I understand that your training is very well balanced but, with respect, you're also selling your own brand (training meathods, tools, accessories, etc.). To cut a long story short, you seem to be saying that nearly all "Positive" trainers don't know what they're talking about, which is irresponsible and untrue.
Positive training for behaviour/s can be used very well, or it can be used badly (as can balanced), and has extremes from excellent trainers like Steve Austin, right down to the bottom of the positive scale to a con man/meathod like Zak George's.
Please don't tar all Positive (reward-based or non-aversive) trainers with the same brush, or give the impression that all positive trainers are anti-Leerburg. I'm not, but I am against the use of physical and mental intimidation, pain, discomfort, etc. in training when there are proven kinder techniques to achieve the same long-term goal/s. For my own (highly driven depending on stimulus) KelpieX I use about 95% Positive Reinforcement, and very occasional low-grade physical correction.
Cheers.
Please grow a brain Germany person, before passing further comment.
No. You jumped to be offended.
It's amazing how many "all positive" trainers don't realize they DO use aversives. Many trainers who say they're "All positive" (not picking on you, Neil Shepherd) are not. For some dogs, with-holding a click from a clicker, or not saying "yes" or failing to reward a good response is VERY aversive to dogs in general.
New, or bad trainers are the most aversive thing to most dogs. Everyone who trains dogs has been there because we all had to start somewhere. As new trainers, our understanding of what we're doing sucks, our understanding of what we're really asking our dog to do sucks more, our timing REALLY sucks....forgiving dogs keep plugging along with us but serious dogs decide we're idiots and do their own thing.
I can't speak for everyone but I don't consider "all positive" and "reward based" as the same thing, as many of Leerburg videos show a lot of reward based stuff. They've done articles on marker training and show that many WL dogs consider the opportunity to go after the helper ("bad guy") WAY more rewarding than any cookie, toy, or clicker out there. "All positive" can't be confused with "reward based", they are not the same.
Cheers to you as well =) Nice, respectful comment BTW.
What do you mean by con man /method like Zak George's as I have been watching his videos band they seem great but then again I'm new to this sort of thing. I encourage positive training (so not using prong, electric collars etc) but I would like to know what about Zak's methods are con.
Neil Shepherd what dogs do you train? The problem is not even training, but real life. People go out with their dogs and things happen that are not expected. To teach a novice a bunch of only positive and nice methods will undermine the whole thing. I see many people with unruly dogs that go out full of positive tools as they have learned and then meet a dog a close distance and unexpected and they go banana, start stressing and they don't know corrections..
I’ve trained service dogs using only positive and it works great:) no issues with fall out or displacement or generalized aggression👍🏻
Brandi Wade but are any of those dogs at risk of being euthanatized for dangerous behavior prior becoming service dogs?? I doubt it.
That's funny, since I was told that my dog did not have the proper temperament for service.
@@LIFESaWONDER not all dogs do. But temperament is different than aggression.
You should meet Jairo from the Bandog Brasil channel. He’s in the same battlefield as you.
Good on you Ed, the dolphin and whale trade are criminal.
Watch the movie the cove, the guy who trained flipper is in it, he'll make you cry for the right reasons.
People, dont know that punishment in a operant condition, doesn't mean abuse. It is just the way of communicating to your dog what not to do.... And programing your dog with food is called corruption, not comunication.
I think you may have not listened to entire video ..... High level treats are the key to initial training. It's called Balanced Training ..... Reward and consequence.
Can someone please clarify the difference between reward based training and all positive training ?
If you know the definition of the word "all", it should be obvious what it is about.
MIZZKIE
That's not an answer....
Nicholas Hall
LOL Of course it's not.
But have you thought about what I have said?
I opt for people to THINK before they ask a question that can be answered in just a few seconds if the person uses their brain or go to Google instead of depending on others to spoon feed them. This isn't a chat room afterall.
OR you can just go to Yahoo Answers and ask your question there. You'll (usually) get better answers there. (:
MIZZKIE
Pointless comment.. I just want the question answered...
Which tells me there is no difference, which is what I thought. Thank-you...
Ed Frawley = Legend!
The all-positive movement and all the "do-gooders" behind it make me so angry. I live in Australia and due to the political wranglings and petitioning of various animal rights organisations electronic collars are banned all over Australia and prong collars have been banned in Victoria the state I live in. One organisation Animals Australia is now petitioning for the prong collar to be banned in other states. I am a major animal lover and my first dog was fine with all-positive training because she is not a very dominant or strong willed dog, she just likes to please, however my second dog is very strong willed, strong physically and challenges me a lot. She was rescued from a puppy farm and has had many severe aggression issues. I have seen 3 different trainers and gone to all positive dog training classes and while the information wasn't all bad it certainly has not helped with her aggression issues. I was told by people to have her put down. I muddled on reading what I could on the internet and she is now a much less reactive dog but it makes me angry that my choices have been so limited as to what I can try with her and that barely anyone seems to be thinking about what's really best for the dog. I think what's best is keeping as many intervention tools as possible on the menu so that people can find what works best for their particular dog. Every dog is different to each other and dogs require different things to humans. I'm happy to use all-positive where my dog responds to it, but what happens when she doesn't?? Sorry, but i'm a bit grumpy, I used to donate to organisations that defend animal rights until I realised my own dog was actually having her right to effective intervention taken away.
+Evie Jean Electric collars are not banned in Victoria. You can buy them online - eBay is a very common place in which to buy one. I do not believe they sell these in pet stores anymore though but you can have them imported. All I know for sure is they are banned in NSW, but not Victoria. I am unsure about prong collars though as I have never required one. I use all kinds of methods to raise and train my dogs, from Cesar Millan to Victoria Stilwell. Most trainers nowadays don't know jack shit and it's a waste of both time and money investing in them. Believe me - I have tried. The majority ARE money hungry so I decided to just teach myself and although my dogs aren't perfect (is any dog?) they are NOT aggressive and are exceptionally obedient. They are highly disciplined due to them being active, intelligent working breeds but I also use plenty of positive methods and you should too - don't be afraid to use what works for YOUR dog. I will never stop believing in certain methods, even if they are viewed as "old" and "outdated" - when they are used correctly they can be incredibly effective especially when you have already tried everything else! Just focus on what you believe in and don't allow anybody to interfere.
We are with you Evie!! Any updates on your situation?
It's such a shame that any kinds of training tools are banned in some places. What that does is effectively take away a training option that might mean the difference between a dog that learns its manners and stays with its family and a dog that ends up in a shelter (or worse, put down) because it's unruly and "impossible" to handle.
That is true I (RingDogs) have been selling to Australia via eBay for few years already ecollars, never have a collar returned due to customs or local laws.
hear hear. You have my sympathies. I hate having to resort to any method like those but sometimes it is necessary, at least initially, to change the behavior and get a different response from the dog, and gradually you can wean off such things, with some dog.
I've got a fairly obedient Lab pup but the biggest challenge has been walking. She constantly pulls real hard and I've tried almost every technique to no avail. Just tonight I started to lash out at the dog with some corrective, and quick nose slaps/taps and the results were fairly quick; however, I was labelled an animal abuser by a lady driving by at the time. She stopped her car and told be to stop beating the dog and that ut isn't doing anything wrong. A. It was doing something wrong. B. I was not beating the dog. It was a nose slap. I was upset, I took it very personal and basically never spoke to my wife for the duration of the walk. That lady see me slap my dog on the nose to correct the constant problem of the dog trying to run across the road when she sees another person. That's not so much of a safety issue unless there's a car coming. I got fed up with the 'Zac George' positive training BS and went old shool. That lady see me for just 30 seconds of my entire 40+ year lifespan and immediately labeled me abusive. I love my dog, we all love our dog and she loves us. By the end of that 45 minute walk, the dog was walking with a loose leash. We have taken many, many walks and it's been getting worse the stronger she gets. After 6 months, I had enough and tried the old way.
Had German Shepherd and the whole, stop, turn, as soon as he walks nicely treat him shit never worked. Pulling his lead up above his head and waiting for him to be calm before proceeding did.
Thank you very much.
Lately I have had much criticism in regards to how I am training my Service Dog (Annie).
I am inflicted with epilepsy, so it is very important for her to keep her focus on me.
I am posting a link on the bottom of this comment and would appreciate your "honest" opinion. Annie is an "owner trained" Service Dog" and I do use "correction with both a prong collar and a 'remote collar." She is "never" off leash, but I am concerned if she is to ever get loose during one of my seizures. I do keep her tethered to me when we are in public, and many times I do not even use a leash while she is tethered. For the times I do use a leash it is connected to her vest.
Here is the link and I will be looking forward to an "honest and informed" opinion.
Thank you,
Les and Miss Annie.
Annie's hand signal, absent, leave it training
Have you ever put a prong collar on yourself or a 2 legged loved one. Or any type of these electric collars? Try it some time. THROW these DANGEROUS things AWAY. Bonding, schedules, patients, spending quality time, speaking with professional service dog trainers. There are many POSITIVE CORRECTION methods that TOTALLY WORK but any dog owner has to put in the time and effort. Sure you can make a dog do what you want by doing things as this gentleman suggests, however your dog is not bonding with you nor is he/she happy. A dogs greatest desire in life is to Make You HAPPY. If your friends treated you this way, I don’t think you would want to be with them. One thing I agree with is the pet stores that train only to make money. Not all dogs geared with that very special gift of sensitivity for epilepsy ,they have to be evaluated by a good professional. You CANNOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING on the INTERNET!!! A lot of people are just looking to make money and there are always people looking for short cuts. You appear by the tone of your text you want what you want when you want it. Dogs are a lot easier to work with when they get plenty of exercise. I have multiple disabilities and with proper Professionals, training programs for not just your dog but you also, you can have a wonderful service dog that has a strong bond with you. Best of luck to you, Everyone should remember “there’s no dumb dogs, just dumb people “ . Meaning it’s never the dogs fault. They are animals, they must be taught properly what you need and want them to do. Which way would you like to learn something if you were being taught by anyone let alone a different species.
Add on to last post: I never used treats to teach any of my dogs. I have been working with dogs more than 30 years. Training for competition-obedience and conformation,companionship in various types of capacities,and personal friendship. Again I wish everyone who is fortunate enough to have a dog to POSITIVELY enjoy your friend.
Most people do not understand the correct definition of positive and negative reinforcement. Do your research before you express your opinions. Research applied behavior analysis to define the terminology. Thanks. :)
yes, most of the positive only people use force too and then judge everyone else for doing it.
Dont listen to this lady ^^ Every comment she says is rude and ego filled.
I normally just tap them on the nose or lightly smack their back if they do something wrong when they know not to do it.
You dont even need to go that far. Teach them what NO means, and that is suffiecient.
YESSS!!!! THANK YOU SOOO VERY VERY VERY MUCH!!! hugs kisses and OH MY GOD are you 100% RIGHT!!!
Glad you enjoyed the video :)
Thank you! I Absolutely agree! And yes sea world is an evil business and it needs to stop 😡
I realise this is an old video, and to be frank, I started listening with skepticism. It wasn't what I've come to expect from critics of positive dog training, although you did specify ALL-positive training. I agree 100% with you. If you use a prong or e-collar for corrections - or much worse, punishment - on a dog who could learn from a far lesser correction, you are abusing that dog. Period. Corrections should only be given when necessary, and at the lowest level necessary.
Have you ever put a prong collar on yourself? On your arm or on your leg? Try it. It does not inflict pain; it just feels uncomfortable if enough tension is put on it. Prong collars are a godsend for people with large out of control dogs. With guidance they can get the dog to walk comfortably within an hour of using it versus weeks of positive-only training that may not even work for dogs with high drive or reaactivity.
Well, thats the thing... There is no such thing as "purely positive" or "all positive" dog training, or any animal for that matter including humans. The whole point of positive reinforcement or clicker training is that the dog is working for that click or that treat. Therefore not getting the click and treat, is the punishment, and to the dog its enough of one. There will never be a way to not punish the animal when they get something wrong, because not getting the desired thing, is a correction. You can't tell me holding back a treat is the same amount of punishment as a prong correction to the neck.
Petsmart and such trainers serve primarily to give some novice, basic ideas of how the new dog owner can start learning how to begin handling their animal. I personally know a trainer with Petsmart who has been training for 40 years and she does not just softwood the dog with treats. She is a proponent of letting the animal know when it's not being compliant, and withholding reward for such behavior.
I want this guy to train my dog!!!!
Do it yourself man. You shouldn't have a dog if you can't train them yourself. If you don't have the time to then you don't have the time to have dog in the first place.
Smells.......smells are distractions......oh, and small critters (for one of them). The result of owning dachshunds - but I know this, and I know when and where I can take them off leash. No brainer, not a dog trainer, this was just normal shit when I was growing up.
Most if the people in "newest comments" are idiot positive trainers that keep saying "its proven by science" and never link any real proof lol
I agree 100 percent with Mr. Ed Crawley . positive training is a good tool for learning . But , it will fail you . The dog will get disobedient and will need to be corrected for his or hers disobedience . Thank You and Aloha . Larry M. C.M.T.I.
Hahaha good timing RUclips.
"...high-value rewards in the learning phase of training. In my case, I use -" Then a Ben and Jerry's ad came on.
When something becomes a bit of a cult we have to question the following. I recently published a great article on my website, PetJuntion411 dot com, with a couple of helpful tips on dog training. Immediately I had 3 separate positive only dog trainers attack me for the use of the word "alpha" in the title. Not one of them actually read the article before attacking me. The funny thing is, through their attacks I started doing some research which brought me here, among other places. Over the past couple of days, I've become convinced these people are nuts.
Pet Junction they are soy boys! There’s no true “alpha” in them!
Group for aggressive and reactive dog owners: facebook.com/groups/1404349342956518/
I like William Koehler dog training method, you can't go wrong with it.
These are my two solid reasons why I do not believe in purely positive training:
1. There is no animal on the planet that does not use corrections. Purely positive is a human delusion.
2. Purely positive methods will almost never work for a dog with severe aggression issues with a time limit of less than a day until it is put to sleep.
(FYI no, I am not saying methods that use corrections can magically cure an aggressive dog in under 24 hours. People ready to put a dog to sleep need quick results, not fancy words and cookies. Purely positive takes time, and those people/dogs don't have that time.)
Another main reason which is the core of both of the above:
3. With purely positive training, it is impossible to teach a dog the concept of not doing something. You can only teach it to choose not to do something in exchange of something better. So what if the dog chooses to do that unwanted behaviour because it is better for it than all the other options you give it? Now what can you do, huh? Huh?
Are you going to give a dog that is mauling a child treats? Or are you goint to correct it?
*Hundreds and thousands of dogs - maybe even millions - are put to sleep every year because purely positive training methods don't work for them.*
Teaching a dog "no" is an absolute necessity. It is not abuse.
A dog that does not have rules, boundaries, and limitations is a ticking time bomb.
Cesar Millan and Leerburg Enterprises FTW.
And there are thousands of dogs put to sleep each year BECAUSE of aversive training methods and the damage they cause. Most the positive behaviourists I know spend the majority of their time trying to fix problems caused by aversive methods such as CM's, problems which could have been completely avoidable with positive methods.
Warsteiner Deutschland
EXACTLY!!
It doesn't matter if the method is positive or aversive - wrong dog training methods can make dogs go bad.
And there will always be those idiots who just read a few lines of a book/site or watch a few seconds of TV and think they know everything.
It baffles me how people whine about people damaging their dogs thanks to aversive methods WHEN THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY OPT FOR POSITIVE METHODS. (in the case of most first world Western countries)
Helloooo, we're living in 2015, not 1973.
How do they conveniently forget the fact that the majority of dogs that became uncontrolable were trained POSITIVELY?
And forget about the people who simply abuse their dogs. Those don't count because real abuse is not training at all and those owners even know it.
It's really sad and extremely ironic when people who promote purely positive label a dog "untrainable" and advise the owner to put their dog down. Victoria Stilwell, I'm talking to you, you Cocker murderer!
The fact that the most euthanised dog breed in USA is the Pitbull is a clear signal that purely positive does not work on certain dogs with certain traits - mainly severe aggression.
Where I live, Japan, the No.1 euthanised dog breed is the Shiba Inu, another breed known for high aggression. Shiba Inus and other Japanese spitz breeds are all very primitive, meaning they retain many traits of wolves, and one of them is a strict pecking order. Many of these dogs don't respond well to treats and toys. These dogs EASILY turn into snapping devils at an early puppy stage in the hands of a weak owner. Because of their unfriendly nature, they are even harder to train than a Pitbull.
So if we are never allowed the option of aversive dog training, many of these kinds of dogs will become aggressive when owned by a weak/unstable owner, and even professional dog trainers won't be able to cure them before the time limit to euthanasia(sp).
It is ridiculous to shun a certain type of training method when it works for some certain types of behavioural issues.
It is always best to have a back-up method when all forms of positive methods fail.
Which do you want - a dog cured by aversive methods or a dog that has the potential to be cured put to sleep just because people are too chicken to say No to the dog?
Stressing a dog for a few minutes to get positive results is okay. It's not the end of the world, geez. Why can we scold each other but not dogs? Do you really think they are THAT fragile? Come on.
Besides, once a dog behaves, it now has many more opportunities to get rewards and affection. Isn't that awesome? Don't you want it to be that way ASAP? *Prolonging a training session just for the sake of purely positive is withholding the dog's opportunity to get more rewards and affection in the long run.*
Yes, there still ARE many aversive trainers out there who DO in fact use outdated ABUSIVE training methods. Their methods are harmful to dogs because they ONLY control a dog PHYSICALLY without controling them PSYCHOLOGICALLY as well.
Watch the Dog Whisperer episode about Jonbee the Jindo Dog. It perfectly demonstrates - just as PR trainers always say - how old-fashioned aversive training can make dogs even more aggressive, while the right kind of aversive training can cure them.
And just in case people perceive me wrong, *I am against PURELY positive only*.
Every single dog on the planet needs positive reinforcement, even if you use aversive methods. Nobody can deny THAT.
_' Purely positive methods will almost never work for a dog with severe aggression issues with a time limit of less than a day until it is put to sleep.'_
Naive and ignorant comment. I rehab proper aggression cases all the time without using corrections. Dogs that actively seek conflict (the type I deal with) escalate immediately with the slightest correction. Positive reinforcement is the ONLY method that safely makes these types of cases manageable.
Check out the work of people like Craig Ogilvie and Jack Jay.
_'With purely positive training, it is impossible to teach a dog the concept of not doing something.'_
Total bullshit and shows a lack of understanding of what drives dog behavior.
_'You can only teach it to choose not to do something in exchange of something better.'_
That 'something better' can be the choice not to engage in stressful behaviors (seeking conflict). Most dogs seek to avoid conflict but some have never been taught how. Once shown, they choose to avoid conflict every time.
_'So what if the dog chooses to do that unwanted behaviour because it is better for it than all the other options you give it?'_
Then you've failed the dog as a trainer.
_'Are you going to give a dog that is mauling a child treats?'_
If you allow a sketchy dog access to be able to 'maul a child', you've failed as a human being and should not be allowed to handle dogs.
In what reality would you expect to reward a dog for mauling a child ?
_'Or are you goint to correct it?'_
Too late to correct anything, you've now got a serious law suit on your hands, and a dog who will be destroyed.
_'Hundreds and thousands of dogs - maybe even millions - are put to sleep every year because purely positive training methods don't work for them.'_
I hear this all the time without any evidence to support such an assertion. A lack of good training could be one factor, but positive reinforcement works and works really, really well.
_'Teaching a dog "no" is an absolute necessity. It is not abuse.'_
I see many, many of my clients screaming 'NO' at their dogs all the time, to no effect whatsoever.
And effective 'not that' cue is what is needed. I never teach 'no', I use 'ah ah' to indicate the dog has got it wrong and immediately ask the dog for what I do want. I always offer the dog a choice. That way, the dog chooses to do the desired behavior on his own.
_'It is not abuse.'_
I see it used abusively and unfairly all the time (unfortunately).
_'A dog that does not have rules, boundaries, and limitations is a ticking time bomb.'_
Nope. A dog who's drives have been repressed through over-correction is a 'ticking time bomb' (the kind of dogs CM produces). Dogs who haven't been taught the rules, make their own 'dog' rules that often conflict with our 'rules'. Dogs simply need clear and consistent information on what is expected.
MIZZKIE that is complete bullshit! There have now been multiple studies that show that dogs trained using aversive methods are more likely to have behavioral problems and poor relationship with owner:
www.appliedanimalbehaviour.com/article/S0168-1591(08)00371-7/abstract
Positive reinforcement and negative punishment do not have to involve food. Once a cue is taught with food, it can be practiced/proofed using anything the dog wants & is allowed as a reward. Ex: being let on couch, let off leash, play, allowed a toy. The dog very quickly learns that even a small amount of compliance ("look", "sit") makes all the things it loves, happen. Yes, correction in the sense of communicating an incorrectly offered behavior is necessary, but should not have to go beyond a verbal cue.
There are tons of "trainers" on youtube who show putting a prong collar on a dog and immediately yank it around. These people are responsible for producing all kinds of dog, people reactivity and other anxiety issues.
Motivating your dog is also about demonstrating that your decisions can remove unpleasant things from the environment like someone else's annoying dog. If your dog trusts your decision-making, it will be highly motivated to listen & comply even when faced with a distraction such as the urge to chase deer in the woods.
Victoria Stilwell in one video literally stands and watches a dog bite a child and refuses to pull it off because it would 'bite worse'.
All-positive training works great on unicorns in fantasy land.
I feel bad for your dog
Don't. He's amazing. And lives a life full of freedom and adventure because I trained him right.
@MiniOreoBubble: I feel sorry for you because you're an idiot!
MiniOreoBubble ditto, I feel bad for you too... stop making an ass out of yourself.
One of my dogs is the closest I've achieved to "all positive", and that's "usually positive". This dog is REALLY soft. Sickeningly soft; on a formal recall a "Come" with a smile gets me an excellent performance, a "Come" with no smile = a shut down dog. He's so super sensitive that verbal corrections are minor and physical corrections are not really necessary...but that's him. We also had a really hard headed working bred dog that ignored verbal corrections. It so very much depends on the dog, their nerves and temperament and drives, and experience show us this and we learn what dogs demand more corrections and what dogs demand lesser corrections. (A WL GSD is going to require more correction than your typical Sheltie that flips if you so much as look at them wrong, etc....)
This aged well 🙏👌✅
Great. Now I'm really confused. I watched the above video and was convinced that all positive training was a bad thing. So I read the comments, and all of a sudden I'm convinced all positive training is now a good thing. But wait; another commenter made sense with his version, so now I think all positive training is bad. Just shoot me.
lol..the truth is pretty obvious if you ask me
You and me both buddy. I go back and forth between balanced trainer channels and kikopups like all day. I don't know who to believe. Meanwhile I have a 1 year old Rottweiler who really only ever responds to some form of responsible correction. I love the idea of getting the dog to "want" to work for me or whatever the positive people say, but the reality is there is no chance for error with this dog. I know that owning a dog of this size and power is a greater responsibility than a freaking border collie or chihuaha.
LOL this made me laugh :) I know what you mean! Kikopup IS a great trainer! For what she does. There ARE great positive trainers. There's clearly great balanced trainers. I think what is best is, what is best for the dog. For me, I do as much as I can to be positive, set my dog up to succeed, proof at where he can be successful and get lots and lots of reinforcement for what I want. But I think it can be helpful to some trainers to "close doors", and convey "not to" with some correction. You need to have good timing, and be thought out as much as positive, so to me, learning as much as you can about +R is crucial. Even the top balanced trainers are skilled at it. Bridget Carlsen, Mike Ellis, trainers like that who are mostly positive, but have negative markers, too. That works with a wide variety of dogs, and also is fun for both trainer and dog, and makes training go quickly.
I'm beginning to swing back to that, cuz I have competition goals. And whatever gives the most clarity is important in training IMO.
Me too!
drewmorg, you have a MUCH bigger chance for error when using corrections than when using positive reinforcement/negative punishment based training. Use a correction incorrectly and you have a good chance of creating aggression in your rottie that didn't exist before.
this trainer was callling out zack george bullshit 9 years ago xd
@leerburg about 10yrs ago I got an Australian Kelpie, I grew up with Malinois and even got to to experience being a decoy under the watchful eye of an experienced French Ring decoy. I was also attacked by my uncles Germann Shepard when I was about 7 or 8. 78 stitches in the side of my face, a hole in my cheek too. I remember I snuck outside to play with the dog, got down by it’s face and stepped on it’s foot. Just wanted to share a little background of my experience with dogs. Back to the Kelpie pup, my wife and kids were begging me to bring her to pet smart puppy school. Being a dad I figured I would humor them. I knew what was going to happen and it was hilarious. This Kelpie was about 12 weeks old. She had destroyed this trainers psyche. This puppy just wanted to play another puppy, and could care less about treats. The trainer then wanted us to walk around the store with a treat in their face trying to get all the puppies to walk with a loose lead. I found a choke collar in the leash isle and put on my dog. I gave her a very gentle correction. Enough to get her attention. My puppy was walking with a loose lead. The trainer asked me to never return. I work with a great dog trainer and do herding. This lady is a master dog trainer, she has one countless obedience titles, trained K9 police dogs, won tracking, Protection training, and herding championships. I am by no means a dog trainer, but know enough to have obedient happy dogs. I was told. Be firm but fair. I have another Kelpie. They are similar to Malinois, very hard headed very busy and very affectionate. I have never used treats, I use vocal praise. When training with live stock occasionally there may be a very strong correction. They get into a zone and the prey drive is at max. Yes I threw a would staff at my dog, and watched it bounce off her head. Almost didn’t phase her. No I was not intending to even hit her just throw it by her. I missed. I do things like put a mouse trap on the garage can. It works. The dog did to herself. I done that with every dog I have owned that would get into the garbage. I have so much to learn, I believe that there isn’t one fix all formula for correction. I would never in a million years hit a dog or try to hurt them. Maybe a shake on the scruff, or totally ignoring them. I don’t know, herding dogs are amazing and smart. Just wanted to share my thoughts on training. I’m still learning how to read a dog and how to read myself as well
Positive training usually works with fearful dogs or with basics like sit and stay. Beyond that, rehabilitating dominant aggressive red zone 100 pound dogs with fucking treats is fucking ridiculous. Maybe you might make them more tolerable but the problem isn’t completely fixed.
IANADT, all-positive training appears to work in special cases. both dog and situational. That's the red flag: in special cases.
The trainer is in competition with whatever stimulus can divert the dog's attention. That's a problem. All-positive implies there is always a stimulus available to the trainer which is greater than what the dog is facing. It's an arms race of stimuli versus the desired outcome of listening to the trainer regardless of the domain; the trainer's voice should always break through the noise. All-positive subordinates the trainer's voice to a contrived contest.
For people, being wrong is more informative than being right. When one is wrong, it can be shown. When one is right, either one knows or was lucky or the person "correcting" didn't bother. This is why negative reinforcement is powerful when properly and proportionally used: the student is clear on the outcome. The key is to not let negative reinforcement exceed inspiration. Any outcome must always net inspire learning and growth.
R+only works for learning and shaping behaviors, that's what a lot of people get wrong. It doesn't fix "Fifi's" dog on dog aggression which Fifi will be put down if her integers gave her up. 😢
politics in contracts from shelters is a big part of the problem. You are forbidden to do certain effective things for your adopted dog from a shelter in many shelters across America.