It makes perfect sense. After all, dogs don’t use ‘positive reinforcement only’ to correct each other so why would we think it would work when humans use that approach. 🤷🏼♀️
I agree with that, to a point. We are two different species without a lot of common communication, so from our end it's important to try to communicate as clearly as we can, and for me that means letting a dog know when they're doing something I want, and when they're not; it's both ends, with the goal of them understanding what I'm trying to communicate. From their end, we understand if they're grinning and wagging their tails it means we're doing something they want. When they cower, growl, bare their teeth or bite, we're doing something they don't want. It's the degree, and the goal that matters. If you're trying to punish your dog because you're angry, because you assume they're being a jerk, and you're not using the minimal but still effective punishment, then no.
@@Catbooks I agree. Communication becomes clearer when we stop assigning human reasoning / emotions to our dog and take the time to learn the meaning behind our dog’s cues and responses to things. I think that’s the first step in becoming a good leader for our pets. 🙂
this is one of the best explanation videos and is even more relevant in today's dog training environment. you should re-release it somehow (maybe with a prolog of the current insanity of internet criticism of balanced dog trainers). keep it up. you're 100% rational and correct, as always.
It's interesting that you make a comparison to raising kids. I am a kindergarten teacher and have seen first-hand what the so called "stress-free" upbringing does to children. They basically grow up disoriented and often end up behaving in antisocial ways, not because they are mean, but because they were taught that everything they do, every impulse they want to follow is great and that the others - originally the parents - will just remove any obstacle from their lives. They have no frustration tolerance, very little self-regulation and very low resilience, because they never had to deal with stressful situations and could never develop the coping stategies in the first place. Then they get into the peer group and get a lot of negative reinforcement from other kids, who understandably don't treat them like princes and princesses. Then the stress is even bigger, because they cannot understand what is going on and are often years behind in the development of both social skills and stress resilience. Now, in pedagogy we differentiate between punishment and a consequence, punishment being arbitrary and based on one person having more power than the other and consequence being tied directly to the behavior - for example, if they keep knocking down another child's block tower, they have to leave the construction corner and can only come back if they stop the behavior. Still, it's an aversive situation to the child, it sets a boundary and forces them to forgo own pleasure for the sake of being social and respecting the other child. It does cause them stress and it is a use of force - they have to leave the corner, if they don't or keep knocking down the tower, as some kids with powerful personalities will do, they have to be physically removed from the situation. Now, this all happens within a wider context of a relationship, which is based on mutual trust and respect and the child is helped to deal with the negative emotions coming from the situation, so that they can rejoin the play and have fun afterwards. But if this boundary is never set, if they never feel the negative consequence of the behavior, they will keep doing the unwanted behavior, because the feeling of power over others, the power to make them feel bad and cry, is innately reinforcing to the child - feeling strong feels good. I had two-year olds sitting or lying on top of smaller kids, pinning them down to make them cry and enjoying it. I did not take them to the side and give them candy in the vicinity of the other kid, that would be absurd. I worked on setting boundaries and encouraging empathy, helping them develop prosocial ways of being strong, and these kids grew up to be well-socialized leaders of their peer groups. And yes, I will throw in the D-word - some kids are temperamentally more dominant than others, it's natural variation. They need a lot of discipline to channel that tendency in a pro-social way and boy, believe me when I say, it makes the adult sweat to help them do that. Not unlike battling this malamute sometimes... :)
As a future puppy parent, I came across this video after trying to understand what positive reinforcement even is. I’m gonna be getting an American cocker spaniel and I have been told that they are considered very sensitive dogs and I have been concerned how I will train my dog adequately without instilling fear. I want my dog to behave because they want to not because they fear me. I thought positive reinforcement training was the way to go but this video really put it into perspective. I will be mindful what kind of training classes they have in my area, so I don’t pay for a training program that is doomed to fail. Thanks a lot for your input!
You are in the right place at the right time doing the right thing. The earlier the better. Know that dog you're getting is it right for you and get started as early as possible with good training and Joel is the best. Socialization early. I've known some nasty cocker spaniels. Just because a dog looks like Lady doesn't mean they can't get nasty if you don't do your part.
I watched some positive reinforcement only you tube channels before getting my puppy, and all I could think of was how am I going to feed my dog all these treats without making her obese? Glad I found your channel. So true about their intense anger towards Cesar Millan! I have yet to see one of them save a dog labeled as aggressive from being put to sleep, using only positive reinforcement. Still waiting. ⏰
@@kongkarry With over-breeding and overflooding of rescues, yes. Sadly, more dogs should be put down than what is. However, there also needs to be more proper education for people getting puppies because most of the dogs in shelters were puppies that got love and love until they got full size and them jumping and pulling weren't cute anymore. A lot of aggression is perceived as well. In a lot of Joel's videos and others like Tom Davis people say 'agressive' when a lot of the time their dog is undersocialized/desensitized and everything is just so much for them and a few corrections to teach them what is right from wrong is fixed in one training session. Actual aggression is different and the dogs totally act differently and can't be totally 'fixed' except for hardcore awesome obedience and safety like kenneling around kids/other etc. Oops, this is kinda long. Discussion time anyone XD
@@kongkarry Shelters getting flooded is not the same thing as whether you can train an aggressive dog or not. Regardless of whether the shelter does purely positive or balanced dog training methods, the sad truth is that stupid people are gonna keep dumping their dogs, forcing shelters to euthanise dogs to make room. Since this video is about purely positive dog training not being good enough, it's silly to avert the topic. You're just making an excuse to justify killing dogs who if given another chance by trying out balanced dog training could have been trained and not euthanised. If you're a 1 trick pony, then if your method doesn't work you can't do anything about it. But if you have more tools in the tool box then there is a MUCH more chance of being able to save that same dog. It's just common sense.
@@kongkarry I rehabilitate aggressive and reactive dogs while educating the owners on proper dog handling. I've NEVER met a dog who could not be rehabilitated. It is the devotees of the Positive Reinforcement Only Cult who can rarely be rehabilitated. They are hateful, resentful, and angry zealots.
It all stems down to people who think saying no is mean. They think a slight raised voice or a slight collar correction is mean. It’s absolutely not mean. It does not hurt the dog. Ofcourse they don’t like either reaction, but a little pain now can prevent a ton of pain later on. I have a friend with 2 Great Danes that are out of control. They don’t even know basic commands. They jump, scratch and mouth anyone who comes over. The first time she took them to the vet they bolted from her car and ran across a highway. They had no recall and wouldn’t come to her. I offered to help her train them but they would be corrected. She didn’t like that and said it’s mean. Well then you’re stuck with being a prisoner to out of control dogs and never being able to have anyone over your house. No rules, guidance or boundaries are abuse, it’s absolutely not love.
Yeah it's like the kids getting spanked argument that has been going on for a century. There are other methods per say.. But the idea is that you have to be mean at some point.
Loving your channel started using your way yesterday after binge watching my walk was almost great stopped the sniffing at a 100 miles a hour also my girl had a go at a motorcycle while waiting at lights got into my stand as you explain gave her a good correction then a sit with a leave it she listened normally I would pull her away with embarrassment if I can get that to work on a 3 yr old GSD also a first time owner and to top that I am 70 so carry on making this great work thank you
Nice...... Ive been using his style of leash correction for a while now, and it's been awesome. I see now that a dog just needs to be shown what's acceptible and Not acceptible. I let my dog be the boss for too long. Not anymore!
Thank you for not backing down on this subject. Realistic training for real dogs with real people vs it looks good to people to say only positive reinforcement training, so no one gets hurt feelings. I've been behind the scenes with trainers who SAY they use positive reinforcement ONLY training, and none of them are successful in following that 100% of the time, lest they turn away all the dogs who already have issues. Seriously 😳
Exactly! A lot of positive-only methods are quite performative. It’s more about appearing morally superior rather than actually training the damn dog 😂
Nailed it! I love when my dog responds well to positive reinforcement but with a bullie type dog I’m always on alert to stop lunging, jumping, counter surfing 😎, etc. I try to be attentive to Bailey’s attitude and determine the reward or “punishment”... I appreciate your work.
Plus with my son's pit bulls, they aren't so into food as a reward. Their favorite reward is action! A tumble, a good fast walk, a wrestle on the bed, a game of tug or throwing around something heavy, like a small tire. What if two or three big guys like that ended up counter surfing & didn't care about treat - fueled "positive reinforcement"? What would positive reinforcement people recommend then? We've had 2 labs that counter surfed only when no one was around. A friend had Dobermans that wanted to eat stuff they weren't supposed to - like leather furniture - when people went to work. In both cases, we bought small mousetraps to place on counter / new leather sofa respectively. Those traps were nowhere near big enough to snap a big dog's schnoz. They were sensitive enough to make a huge snap (!!) 🎉 & pop up in the air when disturbed. In both cases, upon arrival home, both of our families found big doggies avoiding the area like it's possessed. 😂. No one hurt in the least bit. We left the mousetraps up that week,maybe they got sprung once more. Now, if we suspect someone's forgotten their counter surfing lesson, we don't even set the traps. Putting a mousetrap on the counter is enough to remind the dog. He can smell it. The behavior won't occur again for months. Same thing works for trash can foraging, back yard hole digging, some other things that happen when mom & dad are at work. 😊😮😊
You can prevent undesired behaviors from happening in the first place. Positive reinforcement is not ignoring the undesired behavior and reinforcing the desired behavior, that is a total myth created by Victoria Stillwell. As you said, most undesired behaviors are self-reinforcing/ inherently reinforcing, so the more the dog rehearses the undesired behavior the more likely the dog will do it in the future. So in clicker training, you create a prevention where the dog is not rehearsing the undesired behavior. So because the behavior is not getting rehearsed, it is not getting reinforced, so then you teach an alternate behavior, something the could do, and you reinforce that. So the undesired behavior is not getting reinforced, and the alternate behavior is getting reinforced, the undesired behavior slowly fades away. It is called extinction I think, I am not quite sure. ( Sorry for my English lol )
Hit on the nail. Although, how can you extinct something that's natural on an animal? I don't think you can't, tho. With corrections, you don't eliminate the bad behaviour, but you get the dog to understand what's not desired. I've seen many dogs trained with only positive that will freak out under stimulus situations. Ej, seeing another dog, a dog in heat, a dear or a rabbit and they couldn't stop it. With balance training I've been able to get to my dogs head at those moments and stop it from doing something stupid.
@@kevinthorp6982 Corrections are extremely useful when delivered quickly and with enough intensity based on the behavior, but if a dog continues to do the behavior after the first few corrections, it's probably time to try something else. This is why balanced training makes the most sense and is most effective. The problem is we have "balanced" trainers going directly to corrections and aversives with minimal reward, giving the proper ones a bad name.
@@JimiInTheJungle I agree with that 100%. I must say that training a dog is not easy at all. I've been training my 9 month old white husky by myself and it's been quite the journey. I almost gave up, because it was damn hard, and with positive reinforcement you only get them to do tricks, but you don't or at least I wasn't able to eliminate a bad behaviour, then I try with corrections and it's been so much better.
@@JimiInTheJungle I agree, and corrections should also always first be tried at the lowest level of intensity relative to the behaviour. If you have to step it up, then you do. The goal should always be about effective communication with a species with whom we don't share a common language. Rewards/reinforcement are equally important. I too have seen too many "balanced" trainers who rely too heavily on corrections and adversives, and are too light on rewards/reinforcements. That's not what I call balanced.
I actually got into an argument with a friend who has an extremely overweight corgi with repeated aggression tendencies that has been fed with positive only treats about my leash corrections which were deemed “harsh” and “abusive” in his words. But the thing is, my dog was listening after those corrections and he’s doing much better on walks - gradually improving while my friend’s corgi is still at square one with aggression. Positive reinforcement training works for some instances, and not so much when it comes to leash walking with distractions for my dog. His attention just goes anywhere but me until he receives a correction. Balanced training works and every breed of dog learns differently. Just disappointing to hear from the all-positive people that one-size shoe type of training fits all breeds of dogs.
One-size-shoe analogy is very inappropriate in this case. It might be useful here to differentiate between those aspects of the training process which are breed- or individual-specific (such as, e.g. what might be an appropriate reward) and aspects which are universal, not just for all dogs but for all animals, including humans (such as, e.g. the fact that aversive stimuli are powerful tools for blocking unwanted behaviors, but have a nasty side effects in a dog's emotions, increasing the level of stress, physiologically manifested in the increased level of cortisol, which in turn has long-lasting negative effects on the dog's behavior). Of course, it is quite obvious that you can't treat aggression merely via giving treats - but no well-educated force-and-fear-free trainer claims that. There are other means, which are safer, more effective, and more ethical than giving leash corrections
@@Deafleopard when you hug or pet your dog, you also use force, this is plain physics. It's not about using or not using force, it's about using or not using pain or fear of pain
All this tells me is he sucks at positivity training just as much as he would at dominance training. I've seen people that can't train their dog with either style. Mostly because they don't think of what they're communicating, how they're communicating or if they are sending mixed messages with other parts of the training. So it's pointless it's less to do with the efficacy of the training and more to do with the human ineffectively training the animals
Yeah my friends dog was raised only with positive reinforcement and even though his breed is usually very family friendly and timid, the dog is very possessive and can be very aggressive! He's also extremely annoying and pushy. My dog, GSD, who's supposedly not supposed to be owned by people without knowledge on the breed (he's our first GSD) Has 0 aggressive behavior, no food aggression, no possessiveness, because we didn't do solely positive reinforcement
THANK YOU . The Positive training method goes against all rules of Common Sense! I took 2 classes at Petsmart (it was a good experience and I'm glad I did it) but I was dismayed at the "non punishment" style~I think these classes are made so that you have to keep coming back (about $100 a pop). Major problems were not addressed and the positive training methods did not work. Everything is so PC now and it's ridiculous with these so called "trainers" and just terrible about how they have shouted their idiocy over what they call the bad "dominant training dog style". People view little me walking two shepherds calmly everyday in the neighborhood as a unicorn~how do you get them to walk so nicely and be so polite? Well, it was not through the "positive training method"~
I worked at petsmart and actively told customers to go elsewhere for training. If you have an aggressive pit bull, cookies and rainbows is not what you need or want.
@@royalpython1736 Petsmart is good for new owners who have puppies and gentle lap dogs and people of have general questions about dog behavior but it is not appropriate for specific behavior problems like leash reactivity or aggression.
The fact that you came across lame positive trainers does not mean that pain- and fear-free training methods do not work or that they do not work for solving real behavioral problems. It just means that you came across lame trainers
I think you hit on a real point about the anger. It takes real self control to administer punishments without anger associated. I think a lot of positive only trainers link the two (punishment and anger) which does result in bad outcomes.
I appreciate your approach so much! It makes sense to me. When I adopted my 2 year old pitbull I enrolled him in group training. I knew nothing about training, but watching the trainer talking baby talk in a squeaky voice to my 70 lb pitbull made no sense to me. I intuitively felt that he would interpret it as submission. I felt that I needed to be the leader so I began to speak to him in an authoritative low voice. I did not ask my dog for anything, I told him what I expected from him. When I removed my dog from the class and told my trainer that I disagreed with his approach, at least for my dog, it struck a nerve with him and he accused me of being abusive towards my dog! Now, after 8 years, my dog and I are very much in tune and he tries to obey me. No squeaky voice, no treats, just positive reinforcement. it's different.
Same thing I experienced, I'm glad you stood your ground and had the common sense to see how clueless that trainer was. :P At least now you can look back at that experience and laugh. I commented about a lady at group training and we both had the same experience, I had a Springer Spaniel and she had a pitbull. We had the same issues with our trainer who was so rude to us for being firm with our dogs instead using squeaky voices and using a different technique with heeling than him. He also allowed his gsd to run up to all our dogs and bully them, mount them, overall bad behaviour for no reason at all, cos his boss is also the trainer and the boss which was ironic. Sadly most of the owners were laughing about it like "aw what a cute dog." So we ditched and we did training together with our dogs away from the group, I was 16 at the time and had to stare at an adult man with a red face yelling at me for disagreeing and making him look bad, he was so mad, it cracks me up xD
@@SuperAmzy1 good on you. I think it's driven by ideology, not by common sense or evidence of what actually works. I think positive re-inforcement should be the preferred method, but there's a place for correction, when required. I think positive-only trainers are delusional.
Thank you for this. I do see a lot more of angry criticizing with positive reinforcement only groups on Facebook and it’s like yikes!! And then with all those rude comments, it’s just like time to leave that group. Dogs are like kids, they need discipline and treats just do not always work. Some dogs aren’t food motivated either, especially in certain situations even for food motivated dogs. Certain distractions are more motivating than any food I can offer. So positive only just doesn’t work. Balanced works.
this video is exactly what i was looking for. i've had issues with my GSD, who is 5, up until about a year ago. destructive, sometimes aggressive, all the negatives. I was scratching my head with what was wrong. separation anxiety? bad training? i completely lost hope in this dog. i went online to ask for opinions because i was absolutely losing it. of course with that, i was being called a shit dog owner, that i need to surrender the dog because I was at fault for her behavior. i didnt know what to do, i did EVERYTHING by the book. she's been to the vet, i resorted to CBD oil and then finally medicating her with benadryl because i just had no answers anymore. I got to thinking, she has been through obedience training, she works well on the farm with my family and i, WHAT could it possibly be? and it hit me: she has never been taught consequences. sure, she listens, sits, stays, lays down etc very well. she is obedient. however, she never learned the true nature of consequence. so after a year of working with her, after a year of teaching these consequences, i can confidently say i have a very well rounded dog, much like Prince. the problem with dog owners today is they treat their dogs like human children. that in itself does not meet the needs, wants or requirements of what a dog is...a dog. yes, respect an animal, but to raise a functional animal, they NEED to learn consequences. I'm all for positive reinforcement...for training. to get a high-quality companion, they need to have consequences. it's structure.
i came back to this video to comment this because im just devastated: my GSD was hit and killed by a passing car on monday morning (halloween). it was a completely freak accident on a very foggy morning. anyway. just horribly broken hearted from it all
once again, busting the myth costing dog owners a fortune while getting poor results when seeking help. The reinforcement only folks favorite tactic is to make the excuse when it does not work to say, you just need more time and pay for more classes.. Eventually it will work... as your wallet gets thinner and they hear the cash register go ding. Great points sir!
I appreciate your channel. Finding the balance in dog training is not easy. There is certainly a level of correction in dog training that amounts to abuse and a level of positivity that for me is unproductive. Thirty years of rescuing dogs from kill shelters taught me a lot and so did reading and studying other trainer’s methods. It is worth considering the fact that the goal is to keep the dog in his home and to keep the family safe with the dog in the home.
Thank you! We are getting a puppy in a couple weeks and I have spent countless hours watching positive reinforcement training vids. I have 4 kids.. so I know that purely positive training doesn't work. So glad I came across your channel. It's more balanced and realistic, we are confident that we now have a good foundation to begin our journey. Keep the vids rolling. 🙂
I’ve been using positivity for months as soon as they want what they want all bets are off I totally agree and it’s for the dogs own good to respect you no matter what it takes
Absolutely love your work. Wish you all the best success. Maybe I retire soon and take your course. Helping people with dog training can actually, as you said, make the world a better place because not only do you learn something to make your dog a better citizen but very much of it carries over into other things such as children. Malinois showing up in shelters now because folks don't think about what they're getting. People getting Cane Corso's and not realizing how much dog that is and how big a responsibility it is to control and train it. A dog that strong could do immeasurable damage to someone, we've all heard the stories.
The first trainer got hired for my adopted American bully who would get frustrated and be aggressive told me to give her up because she wouldn't be fixed with me and she needs a behaviorist. I think she just said that because after constant trying to get my dogs attention she nipped her on her stomach with her teeth and barked showing teeth and she couldn't deal with her. Stopped the positive training and did corrections and that put my dog in her place. Now she is great and although I can see her get frustrated still I correct that immediately with a Cesar Millan tap and puts her back into focus.
To add to this my next dog who was a German short hair pointer and had no aggrasive problems and was a love bug did great with Zak George training of positive and reinforce his existing behavior. Think training requires to examine the dog you have and balance it and adjust.
Hey Joel. If you ever read this comment, I just had something interesting I thought I'd like to share with you. I replied to a question on the dog training forum on reddit recommending your loose leash training method and youtube channel. To my surprise I got a reply from a moderator within 10 minutes saying basically I need to read the rules and that anything other than positive reinforcement is not allowed because positive training is 100% effective as a solution for all problems. Including problems relating from loose leash walking, humping and dog poo eating. Of course, my post got deleted by the moderator. I never thought reddit would censor anything other than positive reinforcement yet here I am sharing this surprise. The positive reinforcement community sure is powerful. 🤷🏻♀️ Your training method definitely goes against the mainstream positive training message but please never stop making such useful content. I just wish people would apply what they learned in universities to dog training. Keep an open mind. Read more, learn more and make your own informed decision instead of being spoonfed just 1 message and accepting it as the absolute truth in error. That's what I have done to make an informed decision and my conclusion is your method works. Positive only training does not. Love you Joel! Thank you for everything. ❤
Yeah I’ve heard that. Thanks so much for bringing it to my attention. Maybe try to give me props on there then maybe the moderators won’t hate me. Thanks
Thanks for another viewpoint. We want to do right by our new puppy. He is awesome and intelligent. We want a nice dog to be around who makes good decisions most of the time. We slso don't believe in being PEZ dispensers. You have an excellent approach and a great way of conveying your knowledge.
I have a rescue chow 2 yrs old. I don’t think his previous owner walked him. He was all over the place and pulled. Horrible! I used your correction technique and he walks with me 95% better. Thank you. I will also continue to work with him about leash reactivity toward small dogs. Thank you for your videos. 🙏. Oh by the way my dog has no interest in treats when walking.
There's a great video called "Experienced mother dog teaches her puppies a lesson in patience." I encourage everyone to watch it. It shows exactly how dogs communicate with each other. Hint: Momma dog doesn't use treats. In that video, momma dog is being jumped on by her puppies. She issues a verbal command, a bridge, if you will, then gives physical corrections. Physical corrections are a natural, instinctual way dogs communicate. Using a balanced method that includes negative stimuli is just talking to your dog in its own language, and that's why it works so well: your dog actually understands you.
There's no way I wouldn't use punishment in training. Dogs absolutely have to know that a negative, unsafe, damaging behavior is unacceptable the moment they start into it.
You cannot reward a child with M&M's for behavior that is unacceptable. Since half of the issues stem from the human influence and the lack of regard of discipline in the home, that goes without saying it doesn't have to be label "mean", life is not always kumbaya. Ignorance is the highest form of leadership especially when dogs are jumping demanding of eye contact because casual dog handlers over use that as communication hence the dog's stemming behavior. As you say they must understand there are rules and punishments or they will continue to practice a behavior to the point where a professional such as ourselves is required. Great video!
Dogs thrive on a pack environment. Where there is an authoritative figure who provides the balance of discipline, safety, feeding, and bonding. Behavior amongst canines has allot of corrections and boundaries. Anyone who takes the responsibility to raise or care for a pet, need to aware and willing to take the mantle of the "boss/alpha" role. To ensure a balance and happy life for the pet. This gentlemen is the real deal when approaching and solving negative manners and promoting a healthy dog temperament.
I could never fully teach my dog to go on walks but I made some progress. Whenever he pulled, I corrected until he came back and sat down. I remember one time, it took me nearly one hour to just go up the street. It worked. The dog became calmer, didn't pull so much, but only with me.
I think y'all really need to hear this: *Positive Reinforcement =* You give something TO your Dog. Something they like. *Negative Reinforcement =* You REMOVE something unpleasant FROM your Dog. *Positive Punishment =* You APPLY something unpleasant TO your Dog. *Negative Punishment =* You TAKE AWAY something good FROM your Dog. (Basically: Can have -- Don't have. > Can have -- Can't have.) *Rewards can =* Food. Toys. Play. Petting. Fun activities. ANYTHING THE DOG ENJOYS. *Punishment can =* Removal of play. Removal of fun. Pressure. Shrill, sudden noises. The element of surprise. Vibrations. A squirt from a Spray-Bottle. Ignoring your Dog. Standing still. Etc etc etc! Lastly, *the WRONG kind of Punishment =:* Anything which inflicts _physical pain_ on your Dog. To which, we can ALL agree is a bad & terrible way of Training any animal!!!
Just going to say one thing, even though this video is very old, training methods should be tuned and scaled based on the dog and behavior that is being targeted. Proper use of a shock collar is going to be less harmful and less traumatic then the pop of a leash depending on the individual performing the training and the dog in question. On top of that some dogs simply do not respond to the shock collar (e-collar) at all given a high enough positive stimulus. This is seen with trained service (bite trained) dogs all the time where the shock collar becomes ineffective. Physical means then are required to stop the dog. But it all comes down to the trainer and how it is used. E-collars have been and are still used extremely effectively in bird dog trainings with no ill effects. Everyone should be training with the intention that positive punishment not be used in the end product but as you yourself have said, stopping behaviors is impossible without some sort of punishment in most cases. If you are competing with a bred dogs prey drive an e-collar may be a good option. But all training, no matter the operant conditioning region it is in, is going to be dependent on the specific trainer implementing that. And some things are easy to overdo or underdo when training goes your dog. Such as “lighting them up” with a collar when a vibration is all that would be required to realign their attention. My 2 cents. You don’t have to agree but the best dog trainers are incorporating every aspect of operant conditioning into each animal/client to find the most effective and fastest approach to solve a particular problem or teach a specific behavior.
Hello sir my golden retriever is 1.5 year old male he doesn't like any dog he never waves his tail and always try to either dominate or be afraid pls help 🙏
🤣YUP - Have a 1 yr old Aussie-Poodle mix (Aussie-doodle I guess) - I've been pouring over your videos the past two days and beginning to apply things I've seen you do. I've already seen improvement on the leash with a regular collar. I would like to find out the type of leash you are using and the gentle leader. I can't seem to find one that doesn't go over the forehead as well.
Thank you so much, love your vdos. Tried the positive reinforcement methods but it doesn't seem to work on my rescue mixed dog (that looks a lot like some sort of wolf-dog/swedish elkhound) that I got a few weeks ago. Been using the leash correction methods for the leash pulling and it's improved his behavior significantly. However, he loves to mouth and softly bites me all the time playing rough that would bruise me or break my skin a bit. I am trying to show dominance by pinning him down whenever he gets too rough and pulling his collar wouldn't help but only aggravates him more. It seems to be working a bit, but he still does it so I decided to use an empty plastic water bottle to hit the floor to make a really loud noise which will stop him most of the time, but he will still try to mouth my hand or feet. I actually decided to hit him with the empty bottle when he got really crazy and wouldn't stop. It seems be working, but I am wondering if it's a bad idea to use this method and if there will be any impact in the long run regarding his aggression. I got him 2 weeks ago (vet thinks he's about 12-14 months old) by chance because no one else could find him a home and he was supposed to stay at mine temporarily. He is a lovely dog and became attached so we decided to keep him. If anyone could give me some advice, that would be helpful. He is very smart but super stubborn so he loves to challenge me. I worry he will hurt other dogs and people if not trained properly. He did bite a friend of mine when his bike fell on him after it got tangled to his leash. My friend went over to get the bike off him and got bitten in the leg. I was told that it's an instinctive thing and most dogs will react that way, but I am now worried about him hurting other people. He also bit a neighbor's dog that actually attacked him first because she was jealous of all the attention he was getting (our theory) because he wanted to play with her with his tail wagging but she just attacked him when he got close. I am trying to desensitize him by slowly socializing him more with my brothers and nephews. He seems to be much more calm now when people walk by my house. And will gradually introduce him to other dogs step by step with a muzzle, etc. as Joel's reccomended in his other vdos. Anyhow, I can't afford to hire any trainer yet, so I am trying to train him myself, just a bit worried if my method is bad or not. (The bottle is super light and wouldn't hurt him, but it's quite loud). Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
I have no idea if this will be helpful or not, but it can not harm:) I have a very jumpy, friendly, mouthy, 9 month old french mastiff. She was going in the wrong direction, and i tried pinning her down, and all that. Really didnt help, as she took it as a game. Then I understood that i was stressed, nervous that she would become worse.. too agitated when working her. I learnd to take a deep breath, and remain calm inside, and use a gentle and calm voice with her. She changed overnight, literally. She is still the same happygolucky dog, but takes me more seriously. Jumping is reduced, and she jumps more in front of, than on. Mouthing , she gets a stern no.. and all fun stops right there. She is now mouthing a lot less. Different dogs need different corrections, not every method works on every dog.
I went with my young dog to a trainer here in my village in germany. I did not know about the different methods and did not yet come across your videos (sadly). Now I know, that this trainer was one of these "positive reinforcement" people. And it did not work at all! She never actually, looking back, told me HOW to fix pulling and such. Only to overwhelm my dog with treats when he does not pull. But how to get him there...well :D I followed your method now, my dog is 3 1/2 years old and it worked after a few corrections. Interestingly, i remember one time while having a private session with her, on a walk with my dog, she even stepped on his paws to "correct" him. Which seemed overly harsh, especially considering her positive philosophy.
Joel, you might create less resistance if you referred to “punishments” as “consequences, because it seems more accurate. Extreme actions, like heavy use of a shock collar, that is punishment. I really like your approach, and it’s helped our 8-mo old spaniel puppy become a more solid citizen. If we can successfully navigate through this teen fear phase, I think we’ll win. Keep the videos coming. Very helpful!
Yeah or wailing on a dog open handed as hard as possible could be considered a punishment. Seen that more than e collars getting out of hand... Every points to e collars being the most brutal when I see more physical force being used about inappropriately on a daily basis. I see what you're saying and I'm indifferent about it. It's just semantics. I just wanted to add an alternative scenario as to not give e collars a bad rep unnecessarily.
I understand what you're saying but he's right when he calls it punishment. It is a form of punishment and he doesn't sugar coat it. Even if he was to use the word consequences the positive only people would still bash him. The wording doesn't matter. What matters is that people need to realize positive only training doesn't work in most cases. It's sad cause i've seen dogs be put down because the owners were so sure that you should only do positive only because they didn't want to get looked down upon by other people and then their dog ends up attacking one too many dogs or ends up attacking a person. People need to stop worrying about what others may think and start focusing on the best way to train.
@@mistytorres3593 I agree with @laureldesign. The vast majority of people watching these videos aren't animal behaviourists, and the word "punishment" has a lot of negative connotations, even if it's technically correct from an animal behavioralist's standpoint. Consequence is far less loaded, and people would be more open to it. Except for those who feel a need to take their anger issues out on their animals, in the name of training, and are too controlling. We both know there are way too many of that type of person. Not talking about you, obviously, just the general audience for dog training videos.
How about if the dog is scared and becomes reactive,shaking and barking, when they meet another dog, could a bit of treat help that is not a bad thing, as oh I see a dog i get a treat, I am fine, I am not scared,maybe not to overdo, I definitely used both of your methods of getting out of the door, and apply a bit o pressure to the leash if my dog get to ahead of me, and also turn away to reduce that excitement
Not only does "positive-only" training not work to have a perfectly well-behaved dog, it's also just creepy. Some of the most die-hard positive trainers, like Zak George for example, give off this weird toxic positivity vibe that is unnerving. It's not normal to be like that. It's okay to express your disapproval of things sometimes and let your dog know it's doing something wrong. The world isn't going to end because you express a stern emotion.
Yeah I agree, I don't like the vide of dogs that have been trained "force-free" either and what kind of relationship is that anyway? A dog that only likes you and listens because you provide them with fun things? I think you get a much deeper connection with your dog when you use balanced training. If you punish a dog and he still loves you and still wants to be around you it is so much more meaningfull.
You have to suppress perfectly healthy emotions (like frustration and anger) in order to be positive only. Those emotions still have to go somewhere, they don’t just vanish. They normally bubble up in the form of passive aggression, condescension, superiority & self righteousness - which is exactly what you see in the depths of the positive-only community. Being a balanced trainer comes from being an emotionally balanced human being.
@@agatakochanska6711 There's an excellent video called "Experienced mother dog teaches her puppies a lesson in patience." It's 2 minutes long, and shows a mother dog give physical corrections to her puppies. She doesn't lure them with treats, ignore them until the behavior dies out on its own, or any of the other "force-free" methods. She gives a verbal cue (a growl) then snaps and muzzle punches them. Every single puppy understands that she's saying "No!" Dogs don't communicate with treats and praise. Physical corrections are a natural language for dogs. Treats are not.
Some online article and people said that dominance, being stern and having strict discipline to your dog is antiquated and they EMPHASIZED positive reinforcement as much as possible. Im here coz im having doubts bout the methods. Im slowly starting to notice my puppy is acting spoiled, it’s not funny anymore especially when it’s an aggressive rough-biting-play towards other smaller puppies and kids
you know what happened when i used positive only training with my terrier and his counter surfing? he started doing it when I was out of the room. sure, it can SOMETIMES limit the behavior when you are around but the moment you leave its all going to shit. so now I have to put a plate of some really yummy fragrant food on a table, leave the room with a camera set up and use an e collar the moment he puts his paws up.
Good content :), and absolutely true :), look forward to more listening to more content like this, breaking into learning theory :). Not to mention 98% of all the well known/respected trainers/behaviourists, use all 4 operants, which is a clear indication that they are all necessary when changing behaviour, and it is the severity of each operant that counts not if it is used.
If all four operants are so cool, then why, do you think, we don't use light electric shocks to enhance our kids' upbringing process? The reason is quite simple: although aversive teaining generalizes more quickly, there is a price for this and we learnt from psychology that it is not worth paying in the case of kids. Do you think it is worth paying in the case of dogs we're responsible for?
@@agatakochanska6711 Can you please explain to me how to positively reinforce train a child who repeatedly punches other kids in the face. I actually would like to know how this works. And if it’s ok that those other kids are getting punched. And does the kid get treated the whole time whilst he is not punching the other kid, but it isn’t reprimanded in any way ??
@@Nicurfe your question approaches the problem from the wrong end. My approach would be, first, to control the child's environment in such a way that punching other kids would not be possible (this is called management in dog training, I believe, and good management is not only possible, but is also a necessity and can work wonders in the whole process of behavior modification) and, secondly, try to find out WHY the kid repeatedly punched other children. Without finding a satisfactory answer to the question neither giving treats nor reprimanding would really work, because this would involve merely dealing with symptoms, not the causes
@@agatakochanska6711 I tried positive reinforcement training for weeks on my rescue dog who comes to work with me every day. It was attention seeking barking. He had me in sight constantly. When he wasn’t getting attention or right beside me, barked all day causing myself to be distressed and exhausted and my work mate to be frustrated and upset. Also, getting himself more worked up and upset. I tried positive reinforcing him every time, in the rare times he stopped. Incrementally. I am a fan of positively training behaviours. Feeling helpless and totally worn out, I watched the video from Beckman’s about barking. No hitting the dog, no harm caused. Problem literally solved in a day. Result, dog is so chilled. Not only is he fine at work, but also everywhere else, including tied up outside a shop whilst I go in which was impossible before. Our relationship is far better, as he is now more calm and attentive. He is far happier. I am far happier. So is everyone around. Why are you on this site by the way?? To talk about how it’s wrong??
I totally get that dogs aren't kids, all that. But something similar to the 'positive reinforcement' dynamic happened to my physically agile, athletic son, who is pretty bright. He noticed super early in life that EVERYONE got blue ribbons for EVERYTHING, even when they quite obviously didn't 'get it' or obviously lost a game. That dynamic really messed him up for a long time, creating a smart, but bored guy. He didn't bother trying after a while. I didn't understand it well enough then, but yes, duh, why try harder, why make the effort to do your best when everyone gets rewarded anyway? A kid's mind has to mature a lot to understand why he should go the extra mile in the face of that. A smart, bored , active kid is a bad combination in school. Wish i was stronger about voicing that to school authorities when i was a young Mom. Same idea, i believe. There are times in life everyone learns when they lose a little, suffer a little. Everybody watching learns, too. Multi dog families with one counter surfer will have 3 counter surfers by the end of the week if they don't get on that
I'm a shock collar guy, but use the beeps more than the zaps. And I have yet to turn it beyond 3/7. That said, I only use it to fine tune in a timely fashion. I never use it on a new dog, giving them time to lower their anxiety. An anxious dog will only see the zaps as just another thing to cry about. Half the time, I have the collar in the pouch of my hoodie and she acts like it's still on. The remote still gets results. It's actually pretty funny, but only because my dogs never need them for long to form good habits.
What about biting?! My 8 month old pup is getting a little more aggressive with the biting and he has now resulted in biting at the ankles when we ignore him for the behavior and it’s really annoying. I usually just end up putting him in his kennel for a bit so he can calm down. But if he feels ignored, he’ll get your ankles.
I use an ecollar but it is 90% an audible beep or a momentary vibration for recall. The 10% when I use the stimulate it is a recall when the dog is not responding. My dogs are hunting dogs. But I know positive reenforcement does not work. How do dogs work in a pack. It is not positive reenvorcement. My 7 year old lab taught my 12 wk old English setter to potty train. She is 90% potty trained after 3 weeks. It was nice.
my son ran in front of a speeding truck. I calmly walked over there and carried his injured body to the hospital and he got better. now every time he is around a footpath I follow him, dropping treats and saying YES! when he doesnt walk in front of a speeding truck. Good Son!! drop a treat. he decides to take a taxi to school, i follow the taxi and drop treats into his taxi window saying "very good boy! such a good son!"
My dog bites (trys to) if someone hurts him,e.g.at the vet.most times he's good there injections, etc.no problem but touching where it hurts.he will react. Or when mostly children want to pet him so badly and do not respect his personal space. he is a grown up,and doesn't want to be petted by everyone... This is a problem,as he also barks to keep people and kids at bay.does it mean that he doesn't trust me enough that I'll keep those people away? On the other hand, it's really difficult when he wouldn't keep next to me indoors all the time and so kids can run after him all the time.ok I gave myself one piece of the answer...train the kids... But there are dogs who would at least growl...
What's crazy is I am in dog training school and I specifically asked "if my client had an adult mastif that was dominant and leash reactive on a flat collar and I don't think a gentle leader would do the trick, would you suggest I use corrections at that point?" I was told to graduate to a prong collar instead of using corrections.
My stander poodle is a year old now and she is still in the fear phase around new people . She’s also getting terrible worh window barking. Shutting her out of the room doesn’t work because the doors to the room has clear glass. She can still see in and will still bark. My posit to r reinforcement trainer has me stand there and every time she looks out the window I’m supposed to click and treat to teach her it’s no big deal. I haven’t been practicing it so I do t know if that method is even practical. Our previous dog only barked if she actually saw a dog or animal or person coming up. Our dog now barks at nothing . How do you suggest getting a dog to quickly love their harness or gentle leader? I still can’t put the gentle leader on her fully. Our previous dog let us out anything on her . But we always just put things on even if she didn’t like it. Now that say it’s bad to do that. This standard poodle is a very sensitive dog. Still very much a puppy at 14 months old
Your answer is in your comment. You had a well-behaved dog that wasn't fearful, and accepted it's collars without problems. Now you're thinking you have to change your methods because of the only positive reinforcement trainer. Forget that guy and go back to what worked. positive reinforcement, in my experience, is great for basic commands and tricks. Tell your trainer you want to teach your dog tricks. He'll be happy the dog will be happy and you'll be happy with the new tricks. If there are issues that need correcting, you need your own experience or Joel.
The last “force free” trainer I talked to recommend to me, without even meeting my dog first, that I should put my dog on anti anxiety meds and that I might just have to accept that I’ll always have an anxious/aggressive dog... and then she tried to charge me $60 for that advice... NO THANKS!
@@BDTraining I have a friend who's blue heeler has been on prozac it's whole life (not allowed to have bones, not allowed to chase a ball etc etc). Lovely dog. Responds to training efforts fast. I wish I could get enough time with him to apply your methods and give him a better life.
That's what they do to humans as well. Here is a pill! No need for therapy, it's not going to help anyway. And people BUY IT. Shove Ritalin down a 5 year Olds throat until he's a zombie that can't eat.
Maybe you can ad this video to a new playlist so people can find easily you're background an what is the problem with positive reinforcement? Or even better a playlist of controversial topics such as for example dominance, difference between positive, balanced or training according to the dominance theory? It would be very useful for us owners if we were criticized in the street or during a discussion that corrections are outdated.
Can you show how you use “punishment” for counter surfing. Our 3 year old Australian is generally well behaved and listens, but this is one behavior we can’t seem to prevent. Thank you!
"watch a fear reactive dog make friends" i think covers it. It was a video with an Australien Shepherd aswell. Theyre sitting in the office when he talks about it.
Watch Cesar Millan, he addresses this issue manyany times. Set your food on the table and make your correction sound ("tshhh" or "ah-ah", etc.) every time she jumps up or even starts sniffing it. Set them up for success by not leaving food out. Then set it on the coffee table and do the same. Set your food on the floor and keep her away from it the same way. You can also do this exercise with her food bowl at mealtimes. They jump at the food bowl, bowl comes back up out of reach. Bring the bowl down when they wait. It comes back up if they move toward it. It's like a puzzle game to them, to figure out how to get their food. It also teaches them that all food belongs to you and comes from you (because they can't read your grocery bill!). Say "ok!" or some kind of release word once you can set the food down and doggo is still waiting and not going crazy. McCann Dog Training has good videos on how to do this.
I remember when I taught my dog where to release himself. Since then, whenever he did it, he came to us, wagging his tail. We'd pet him. He was the gooddest boy for going to the bathroom in the correct place. The first time we reprehended him for doing it in the house, though, I felt bad. The poor thing cried. Like, tears were coming out of his eyes. Well there was one time he went to the bathroom in the correct place, technically... in our actual bathroom. But it was a stormy day so we didn't punish him, because he already knew where to go potty. He was just terrified of the storm.
My dog peed in the house like right in the middle of the room during NY fireworks first year. He peed so long and just starred at us in fear while he did it (we quickly put an empty glass in the way of the pee so there was no real damage). He knew very well no peeing inside, this was not marking or on purpose he just could not hold it but was too afraid to go outside. Poor thing. Now I know to insist on a small walk for pee whenever a storm is coming or right before fireworks.
@@BDTraining more clients. I live in a suburb of Chicago and people are really into positive only everything. They come to me and ask me not to tell the other trainers. They feel shame. Also, I could definently put more effort into the hr part of things. So I could do more.
@@OptimusPrime-dz9md Joel said that the 'positive reinforcement only' was used on the orcas he and others trained. People harp about how superior and foolproof this method of training is and what an incredible bond of trust, respect and understanding it creates. My point was only that several of those whales killed their trainers nonetheless.
Theres a difference between a domesticated dog and a wild animal kept in captivity and both groups need different strategies. Also dogs are happy living with us in our homes, orcas in bathtubs are not happy.
Hello sir my golden retriever is 1.5 year old male he doesn't like any dog he never waves his tail and always try to either dominate or be afraid pls help 🙏
They are angry people. I am a trainer who loves learning from others. I don't think I know everything and I hope I never do. The rigid thinking coupled with the condescending tone of positive reinforcement only trainers is just plain rude. I also love how much they say "get with the science." I actually have several science degrees and a research background. I've read through studies cited in positive reinforcement only trainers videos and websites and I find it should be written like this: "studies." The statistical tests used are sometimes the wrong tests to measure the construct and they are not actual studies, more like opinions. Many are missing key sections (limitations, methods, etc). When someone constantly says "get with the science" but clearly does not understand said science it should be taken with a grain of salt, especially when it is said in a condescending tone.
This is so true. Most of these so called animal rights activists would not lift a finger to help a person dying of hunger on the street, but they would save any animal from abuse. So much hypocrisy
Treats just say a dog is doing something right. So if you give a dog a treat when he jumps, he will naturally think it's okay to do it. You should give a dog a treat when it's warranted. Like when he brings you the newspapper. My dog did this to me and I did give him a treat. I would never treat my dog when he was being an a-hole.
I just about ordered a sprenger prong collar for my dog. He's young, not neutered (yet) big and strong, and has a bite that could do damage if he is raised wrong. I also have a shock collar we used on one of our past dogs. (It didn't work). I will not order the prong and decommission the shock collar. Thank you.
I’ve never been concerned about a dog who’s master dominates them when necessary, but I’ve seen so many people with pos rein dog training who’s dogs end up nurotic and desperate for attention and praise… sometimes to the point of being dangerous
I mean saying no, to dogs is common across all languages, dogs don’t really care about the word you use, they care more about your tone. Dogs know the tone you talk to them in so as long as it’s a baaahhh in like an angry tone and the dog knows it’s an angry tone it’ll work
I don’t understand the hostility that comes from many here towards +R training. Of course it can be done badly as balanced training can too. But both methods can be trained very well. Just aim to be a better trainer and better at understanding your dog. They weren’t born to obey you. It should be about gaining a great connection with your dog and enjoying time with them.
Someone somewhere has the statistics that show how much money Victoria Stilwell earns every time Cesar is villified. It's like it's her entire marketing campaign. I like watching her, I like watching you, and I like watching Cesar. If you freeze-framed her in the moment when a dog hits the end of the leash, though, it wouldn't matter that she made a cute high-pitched noise and turned the other way. It would be about her strangling the dog to inflict pain on it or cut off its air flow. I guess nobody has weaponized millions of people to do that kind of attack work against her. And these folks act like all Cesar does is inflict pain all day, when I'm sure I've seen him sit quietly for an hour, or give a massage, or use essential oils... definitely treats are there. maybe it's his followers who "use his techniques" but forget about the time, petetition and patience part, I don't know. Thank you for naming this.
By the way Cesar adoptees Holly who bit him and knees in the chest and jabs neck and gained respect ✊ for life here’s the video ruclips.net/video/9ihXq_WwiWM/видео.html
Животные
It makes perfect sense. After all, dogs don’t use ‘positive reinforcement only’ to correct each other so why would we think it would work when humans use that approach. 🤷🏼♀️
Because they are mentally ill and emotionally fucked up
@@absolutelyfookinnobody2843 😂
Because humans are dogs 🤯
I agree with that, to a point. We are two different species without a lot of common communication, so from our end it's important to try to communicate as clearly as we can, and for me that means letting a dog know when they're doing something I want, and when they're not; it's both ends, with the goal of them understanding what I'm trying to communicate. From their end, we understand if they're grinning and wagging their tails it means we're doing something they want. When they cower, growl, bare their teeth or bite, we're doing something they don't want.
It's the degree, and the goal that matters. If you're trying to punish your dog because you're angry, because you assume they're being a jerk, and you're not using the minimal but still effective punishment, then no.
@@Catbooks I agree. Communication becomes clearer when we stop assigning human reasoning / emotions to our dog and take the time to learn the meaning behind our dog’s cues and responses to things. I think that’s the first step in becoming a good leader for our pets. 🙂
this is one of the best explanation videos and is even more relevant in today's dog training environment. you should re-release it somehow (maybe with a prolog of the current insanity of internet criticism of balanced dog trainers). keep it up. you're 100% rational and correct, as always.
It's interesting that you make a comparison to raising kids. I am a kindergarten teacher and have seen first-hand what the so called "stress-free" upbringing does to children. They basically grow up disoriented and often end up behaving in antisocial ways, not because they are mean, but because they were taught that everything they do, every impulse they want to follow is great and that the others - originally the parents - will just remove any obstacle from their lives. They have no frustration tolerance, very little self-regulation and very low resilience, because they never had to deal with stressful situations and could never develop the coping stategies in the first place. Then they get into the peer group and get a lot of negative reinforcement from other kids, who understandably don't treat them like princes and princesses. Then the stress is even bigger, because they cannot understand what is going on and are often years behind in the development of both social skills and stress resilience. Now, in pedagogy we differentiate between punishment and a consequence, punishment being arbitrary and based on one person having more power than the other and consequence being tied directly to the behavior - for example, if they keep knocking down another child's block tower, they have to leave the construction corner and can only come back if they stop the behavior. Still, it's an aversive situation to the child, it sets a boundary and forces them to forgo own pleasure for the sake of being social and respecting the other child. It does cause them stress and it is a use of force - they have to leave the corner, if they don't or keep knocking down the tower, as some kids with powerful personalities will do, they have to be physically removed from the situation. Now, this all happens within a wider context of a relationship, which is based on mutual trust and respect and the child is helped to deal with the negative emotions coming from the situation, so that they can rejoin the play and have fun afterwards. But if this boundary is never set, if they never feel the negative consequence of the behavior, they will keep doing the unwanted behavior, because the feeling of power over others, the power to make them feel bad and cry, is innately reinforcing to the child - feeling strong feels good. I had two-year olds sitting or lying on top of smaller kids, pinning them down to make them cry and enjoying it. I did not take them to the side and give them candy in the vicinity of the other kid, that would be absurd. I worked on setting boundaries and encouraging empathy, helping them develop prosocial ways of being strong, and these kids grew up to be well-socialized leaders of their peer groups. And yes, I will throw in the D-word - some kids are temperamentally more dominant than others, it's natural variation. They need a lot of discipline to channel that tendency in a pro-social way and boy, believe me when I say, it makes the adult sweat to help them do that. Not unlike battling this malamute sometimes... :)
As a future puppy parent, I came across this video after trying to understand what positive reinforcement even is. I’m gonna be getting an American cocker spaniel and I have been told that they are considered very sensitive dogs and I have been concerned how I will train my dog adequately without instilling fear. I want my dog to behave because they want to not because they fear me. I thought positive reinforcement training was the way to go but this video really put it into perspective. I will be mindful what kind of training classes they have in my area, so I don’t pay for a training program that is doomed to fail. Thanks a lot for your input!
You are in the right place at the right time doing the right thing. The earlier the better. Know that dog you're getting is it right for you and get started as early as possible with good training and Joel is the best. Socialization early. I've known some nasty cocker spaniels. Just because a dog looks like Lady doesn't mean they can't get nasty if you don't do your part.
I watched some positive reinforcement only you tube channels before getting my puppy, and all I could think of was how am I going to feed my dog all these treats without making her obese? Glad I found your channel. So true about their intense anger towards Cesar Millan! I have yet to see one of them save a dog labeled as aggressive from being put to sleep, using only positive reinforcement. Still waiting. ⏰
at some point we just have to accept that putting aggresive dogs to sleep is maybe the best thing to do.. dogs can be incredibly dangerous!
@@kongkarry With over-breeding and overflooding of rescues, yes. Sadly, more dogs should be put down than what is. However, there also needs to be more proper education for people getting puppies because most of the dogs in shelters were puppies that got love and love until they got full size and them jumping and pulling weren't cute anymore. A lot of aggression is perceived as well. In a lot of Joel's videos and others like Tom Davis people say 'agressive' when a lot of the time their dog is undersocialized/desensitized and everything is just so much for them and a few corrections to teach them what is right from wrong is fixed in one training session. Actual aggression is different and the dogs totally act differently and can't be totally 'fixed' except for hardcore awesome obedience and safety like kenneling around kids/other etc. Oops, this is kinda long. Discussion time anyone XD
@@kongkarry Shelters getting flooded is not the same thing as whether you can train an aggressive dog or not. Regardless of whether the shelter does purely positive or balanced dog training methods, the sad truth is that stupid people are gonna keep dumping their dogs, forcing shelters to euthanise dogs to make room.
Since this video is about purely positive dog training not being good enough, it's silly to avert the topic.
You're just making an excuse to justify killing dogs who if given another chance by trying out balanced dog training could have been trained and not euthanised. If you're a 1 trick pony, then if your method doesn't work you can't do anything about it. But if you have more tools in the tool box then there is a MUCH more chance of being able to save that same dog. It's just common sense.
@@kongkarry I rehabilitate aggressive and reactive dogs while educating the owners on proper dog handling. I've NEVER met a dog who could not be rehabilitated.
It is the devotees of the Positive Reinforcement Only Cult who can rarely be rehabilitated. They are hateful, resentful, and angry zealots.
It all stems down to people who think saying no is mean. They think a slight raised voice or a slight collar correction is mean. It’s absolutely not mean. It does not hurt the dog. Ofcourse they don’t like either reaction, but a little pain now can prevent a ton of pain later on.
I have a friend with 2 Great Danes that are out of control. They don’t even know basic commands. They jump, scratch and mouth anyone who comes over. The first time she took them to the vet they bolted from her car and ran across a highway. They had no recall and wouldn’t come to her.
I offered to help her train them but they would be corrected. She didn’t like that and said it’s mean. Well then you’re stuck with being a prisoner to out of control dogs and never being able to have anyone over your house.
No rules, guidance or boundaries are abuse, it’s absolutely not love.
Yeah it's like the kids getting spanked argument that has been going on for a century. There are other methods per say.. But the idea is that you have to be mean at some point.
Some time, ask her if she thinks it would be "mean" if one of the semi trucks on that highway had hit and killed her dog.
It see it as a liberal parenting model applied to dogs. It revolves around the dogs wants and feelings instead of his needs.
Loving your channel started using your way yesterday after binge watching my walk was almost great stopped the sniffing at a 100 miles a hour also my girl had a go at a motorcycle while waiting at lights got into my stand as you explain gave her a good correction then a sit with a leave it she listened normally I would pull her away with embarrassment if I can get that to work on a 3 yr old GSD also a first time owner and to top that I am 70 so carry on making this great work thank you
Nice......
Ive been using his style of leash correction for a while now, and it's been awesome.
I see now that a dog just needs to be shown what's acceptible and Not acceptible.
I let my dog be the boss for too long. Not anymore!
Thanks so much!
Good for you!👏👏👏. I am 69 and also have a female GSD. Joel’s videos are great and his methods work.
Thank you for not backing down on this subject.
Realistic training for real dogs with real people vs it looks good to people to say only positive reinforcement training, so no one gets hurt feelings.
I've been behind the scenes with trainers who SAY they use positive reinforcement ONLY training, and none of them are successful in following that 100% of the time, lest they turn away all the dogs who already have issues. Seriously 😳
Exactly! A lot of positive-only methods are quite performative. It’s more about appearing morally superior rather than actually training the damn dog 😂
Nailed it! I love when my dog responds well to positive reinforcement but with a bullie type dog I’m always on alert to stop lunging, jumping, counter surfing 😎, etc. I try to be attentive to Bailey’s attitude and determine the reward or “punishment”... I appreciate your work.
Plus with my son's pit bulls, they aren't so into food as a reward. Their favorite reward is action! A tumble, a good fast walk, a wrestle on the bed, a game of tug or throwing around something heavy, like a small tire. What if two or three big guys like that ended up counter surfing & didn't care about treat - fueled "positive reinforcement"? What would positive reinforcement people recommend then?
We've had 2 labs that counter surfed only when no one was around. A friend had Dobermans that wanted to eat stuff they weren't supposed to - like leather furniture - when people went to work. In both cases, we bought small mousetraps to place on counter / new leather sofa respectively. Those traps were nowhere near big enough to snap a big dog's schnoz. They were sensitive enough to make a huge snap (!!) 🎉 & pop up in the air when disturbed. In both cases, upon arrival home, both of our families found big doggies avoiding the area like it's possessed. 😂. No one hurt in the least bit. We left the mousetraps up that week,maybe they got sprung once more. Now, if we suspect someone's forgotten their counter surfing lesson, we don't even set the traps. Putting a mousetrap on the counter is enough to remind the dog. He can smell it. The behavior won't occur again for months. Same thing works for trash can foraging, back yard hole digging, some other things that happen when mom & dad are at work. 😊😮😊
You can prevent undesired behaviors from happening in the first place. Positive reinforcement is not ignoring the undesired behavior and reinforcing the desired behavior, that is a total myth created by Victoria Stillwell. As you said, most undesired behaviors are self-reinforcing/ inherently reinforcing, so the more the dog rehearses the undesired behavior the more likely the dog will do it in the future. So in clicker training, you create a prevention where the dog is not rehearsing the undesired behavior. So because the behavior is not getting rehearsed, it is not getting reinforced, so then you teach an alternate behavior, something the could do, and you reinforce that. So the undesired behavior is not getting reinforced, and the alternate behavior is getting reinforced, the undesired behavior slowly fades away. It is called extinction I think, I am not quite sure. ( Sorry for my English lol )
Spot on
Hit on the nail. Although, how can you extinct something that's natural on an animal? I don't think you can't, tho. With corrections, you don't eliminate the bad behaviour, but you get the dog to understand what's not desired. I've seen many dogs trained with only positive that will freak out under stimulus situations. Ej, seeing another dog, a dog in heat, a dear or a rabbit and they couldn't stop it. With balance training I've been able to get to my dogs head at those moments and stop it from doing something stupid.
@@kevinthorp6982 Corrections are extremely useful when delivered quickly and with enough intensity based on the behavior, but if a dog continues to do the behavior after the first few corrections, it's probably time to try something else. This is why balanced training makes the most sense and is most effective. The problem is we have "balanced" trainers going directly to corrections and aversives with minimal reward, giving the proper ones a bad name.
@@JimiInTheJungle I agree with that 100%. I must say that training a dog is not easy at all. I've been training my 9 month old white husky by myself and it's been quite the journey. I almost gave up, because it was damn hard, and with positive reinforcement you only get them to do tricks, but you don't or at least I wasn't able to eliminate a bad behaviour, then I try with corrections and it's been so much better.
@@JimiInTheJungle I agree, and corrections should also always first be tried at the lowest level of intensity relative to the behaviour. If you have to step it up, then you do. The goal should always be about effective communication with a species with whom we don't share a common language. Rewards/reinforcement are equally important. I too have seen too many "balanced" trainers who rely too heavily on corrections and adversives, and are too light on rewards/reinforcements. That's not what I call balanced.
I actually got into an argument with a friend who has an extremely overweight corgi with repeated aggression tendencies that has been fed with positive only treats about my leash corrections which were deemed “harsh” and “abusive” in his words. But the thing is, my dog was listening after those corrections and he’s doing much better on walks - gradually improving while my friend’s corgi is still at square one with aggression.
Positive reinforcement training works for some instances, and not so much when it comes to leash walking with distractions for my dog. His attention just goes anywhere but me until he receives a correction.
Balanced training works and every breed of dog learns differently. Just disappointing to hear from the all-positive people that one-size shoe type of training fits all breeds of dogs.
One-size-shoe analogy is very inappropriate in this case. It might be useful here to differentiate between those aspects of the training process which are breed- or individual-specific (such as, e.g. what might be an appropriate reward) and aspects which are universal, not just for all dogs but for all animals, including humans (such as, e.g. the fact that aversive stimuli are powerful tools for blocking unwanted behaviors, but have a nasty side effects in a dog's emotions, increasing the level of stress, physiologically manifested in the increased level of cortisol, which in turn has long-lasting negative effects on the dog's behavior). Of course, it is quite obvious that you can't treat aggression merely via giving treats - but no well-educated force-and-fear-free trainer claims that. There are other means, which are safer, more effective, and more ethical than giving leash corrections
@@agatakochanska6711 if you use a leash you use force.
@@Deafleopard when you hug or pet your dog, you also use force, this is plain physics. It's not about using or not using force, it's about using or not using pain or fear of pain
All this tells me is he sucks at positivity training just as much as he would at dominance training. I've seen people that can't train their dog with either style. Mostly because they don't think of what they're communicating, how they're communicating or if they are sending mixed messages with other parts of the training. So it's pointless it's less to do with the efficacy of the training and more to do with the human ineffectively training the animals
Yeah my friends dog was raised only with positive reinforcement and even though his breed is usually very family friendly and timid, the dog is very possessive and can be very aggressive! He's also extremely annoying and pushy.
My dog, GSD, who's supposedly not supposed to be owned by people without knowledge on the breed (he's our first GSD)
Has 0 aggressive behavior, no food aggression, no possessiveness, because we didn't do solely positive reinforcement
THANK YOU . The Positive training method goes against all rules of Common Sense! I took 2 classes at Petsmart (it was a good experience and I'm glad I did it) but I was dismayed at the "non punishment" style~I think these classes are made so that you have to keep coming back (about $100 a pop). Major problems were not addressed and the positive training methods did not work. Everything is so PC now and it's ridiculous with these so called "trainers" and just terrible about how they have shouted their idiocy over what they call the bad "dominant training dog style". People view little me walking two shepherds calmly everyday in the neighborhood as a unicorn~how do you get them to walk so nicely and be so polite? Well, it was not through the "positive training method"~
I worked at petsmart and actively told customers to go elsewhere for training. If you have an aggressive pit bull, cookies and rainbows is not what you need or want.
@@royalpython1736 Petsmart is good for new owners who have puppies and gentle lap dogs and people of have general questions about dog behavior but it is not appropriate for specific behavior problems like leash reactivity or aggression.
Dogs in the wild do not use the Positive Training Method. That should be your first indication.
I wouldn't go that far. Positivity training as we as dominance training can be an effective combo in my experience.
The fact that you came across lame positive trainers does not mean that pain- and fear-free training methods do not work or that they do not work for solving real behavioral problems. It just means that you came across lame trainers
Your methodology is so clear, applicable and practical. Thank you for making so many awesome videos!
I think you hit on a real point about the anger. It takes real self control to administer punishments without anger associated. I think a lot of positive only trainers link the two (punishment and anger) which does result in bad outcomes.
I appreciate your approach so much! It makes sense to me. When I adopted my 2 year old pitbull I enrolled him in group training. I knew nothing about training, but watching the trainer talking baby talk in a squeaky voice to my 70 lb pitbull made no sense to me. I intuitively felt that he would interpret it as submission. I felt that I needed to be the leader so I began to speak to him in an authoritative low voice. I did not ask my dog for anything, I told him what I expected from him. When I removed my dog from the class and told my trainer that I disagreed with his approach, at least for my dog, it struck a nerve with him and he accused me of being abusive towards my dog! Now, after 8 years, my dog and I are very much in tune and he tries to obey me. No squeaky voice, no treats, just positive reinforcement. it's different.
Same thing I experienced, I'm glad you stood your ground and had the common sense to see how clueless that trainer was. :P
At least now you can look back at that experience and laugh.
I commented about a lady at group training and we both had the same experience, I had a Springer Spaniel and she had a pitbull. We had the same issues with our trainer who was so rude to us for being firm with our dogs instead using squeaky voices and using a different technique with heeling than him. He also allowed his gsd to run up to all our dogs and bully them, mount them, overall bad behaviour for no reason at all, cos his boss is also the trainer and the boss which was ironic. Sadly most of the owners were laughing about it like "aw what a cute dog."
So we ditched and we did training together with our dogs away from the group, I was 16 at the time and had to stare at an adult man with a red face yelling at me for disagreeing and making him look bad, he was so mad, it cracks me up xD
@@SuperAmzy1 good on you. I think it's driven by ideology, not by common sense or evidence of what actually works. I think positive re-inforcement should be the preferred method, but there's a place for correction, when required. I think positive-only trainers are delusional.
Thank you for this. I do see a lot more of angry criticizing with positive reinforcement only groups on Facebook and it’s like yikes!! And then with all those rude comments, it’s just like time to leave that group. Dogs are like kids, they need discipline and treats just do not always work. Some dogs aren’t food motivated either, especially in certain situations even for food motivated dogs. Certain distractions are more motivating than any food I can offer. So positive only just doesn’t work. Balanced works.
this video is exactly what i was looking for. i've had issues with my GSD, who is 5, up until about a year ago. destructive, sometimes aggressive, all the negatives. I was scratching my head with what was wrong. separation anxiety? bad training? i completely lost hope in this dog. i went online to ask for opinions because i was absolutely losing it. of course with that, i was being called a shit dog owner, that i need to surrender the dog because I was at fault for her behavior. i didnt know what to do, i did EVERYTHING by the book. she's been to the vet, i resorted to CBD oil and then finally medicating her with benadryl because i just had no answers anymore.
I got to thinking, she has been through obedience training, she works well on the farm with my family and i, WHAT could it possibly be? and it hit me: she has never been taught consequences. sure, she listens, sits, stays, lays down etc very well. she is obedient. however, she never learned the true nature of consequence. so after a year of working with her, after a year of teaching these consequences, i can confidently say i have a very well rounded dog, much like Prince.
the problem with dog owners today is they treat their dogs like human children. that in itself does not meet the needs, wants or requirements of what a dog is...a dog. yes, respect an animal, but to raise a functional animal, they NEED to learn consequences.
I'm all for positive reinforcement...for training. to get a high-quality companion, they need to have consequences. it's structure.
i came back to this video to comment this because im just devastated: my GSD was hit and killed by a passing car on monday morning (halloween). it was a completely freak accident on a very foggy morning. anyway. just horribly broken hearted from it all
@@ilovezac126 so sorry to hear this - especially after all your progress. sending love xx
once again, busting the myth costing dog owners a fortune while getting poor results when seeking help. The reinforcement only folks favorite tactic is to make the excuse when it does not work to say, you just need more time and pay for more classes.. Eventually it will work... as your wallet gets thinner and they hear the cash register go ding. Great points sir!
I appreciate your channel. Finding the balance in dog training is not easy. There is certainly a level of correction in dog training that amounts to abuse and a level of positivity that for me is unproductive. Thirty years of rescuing dogs from kill shelters taught me a lot and so did reading and studying other trainer’s methods. It is worth considering the fact that the goal is to keep the dog in his home and to keep the family safe with the dog in the home.
I appreciate your methods. Thank you again.
Thank you! We are getting a puppy in a couple weeks and I have spent countless hours watching positive reinforcement training vids. I have 4 kids.. so I know that purely positive training doesn't work. So glad I came across your channel. It's more balanced and realistic, we are confident that we now have a good foundation to begin our journey. Keep the vids rolling. 🙂
Do you understand punishment doesn't have to be physical that is all R+ is. Is being smarter than the dog
I’ve been using positivity for months as soon as they want what they want all bets are off I totally agree and it’s for the dogs own good to respect you no matter what it takes
I like your real world help and making things attainable with your dog! 👍
This video starts good but the last few minutes are outstanding...🎉❤
Brilliant explanation!
Joel, I have shared your RUclips videos with so many people. You are fantastic. Patricia Hunter
Thanks so much Patricia!
Absolutely love your work. Wish you all the best success. Maybe I retire soon and take your course. Helping people with dog training can actually, as you said, make the world a better place because not only do you learn something to make your dog a better citizen but very much of it carries over into other things such as children. Malinois showing up in shelters now because folks don't think about what they're getting. People getting Cane Corso's and not realizing how much dog that is and how big a responsibility it is to control and train it. A dog that strong could do immeasurable damage to someone, we've all heard the stories.
The first trainer got hired for my adopted American bully who would get frustrated and be aggressive told me to give her up because she wouldn't be fixed with me and she needs a behaviorist. I think she just said that because after constant trying to get my dogs attention she nipped her on her stomach with her teeth and barked showing teeth and she couldn't deal with her. Stopped the positive training and did corrections and that put my dog in her place. Now she is great and although I can see her get frustrated still I correct that immediately with a Cesar Millan tap and puts her back into focus.
To add to this my next dog who was a German short hair pointer and had no aggrasive problems and was a love bug did great with Zak George training of positive and reinforce his existing behavior. Think training requires to examine the dog you have and balance it and adjust.
Hey Joel. If you ever read this comment, I just had something interesting I thought I'd like to share with you.
I replied to a question on the dog training forum on reddit recommending your loose leash training method and youtube channel. To my surprise I got a reply from a moderator within 10 minutes saying basically I need to read the rules and that anything other than positive reinforcement is not allowed because positive training is 100% effective as a solution for all problems. Including problems relating from loose leash walking, humping and dog poo eating. Of course, my post got deleted by the moderator.
I never thought reddit would censor anything other than positive reinforcement yet here I am sharing this surprise. The positive reinforcement community sure is powerful. 🤷🏻♀️
Your training method definitely goes against the mainstream positive training message but please never stop making such useful content. I just wish people would apply what they learned in universities to dog training. Keep an open mind. Read more, learn more and make your own informed decision instead of being spoonfed just 1 message and accepting it as the absolute truth in error. That's what I have done to make an informed decision and my conclusion is your method works. Positive only training does not. Love you Joel! Thank you for everything. ❤
Yeah I’ve heard that. Thanks so much for bringing it to my attention. Maybe try to give me props on there then maybe the moderators won’t hate me. Thanks
Same thing happened to me. Was it r dogtraining?
@@samwell707 yup it was. It should re renamed positive only dog training to be honest.
Absolutely no lies told. The purely positive stuff always felt a little hollow and fell short of full solutions for challenging behaviours
Another gem! It's an idea to make more playlists with your insightful video's.
Thanks for another viewpoint. We want to do right by our new puppy. He is awesome and intelligent. We want a nice dog to be around who makes good decisions most of the time. We slso don't believe in being PEZ dispensers. You have an excellent approach and a great way of conveying your knowledge.
I have a rescue chow 2 yrs old. I don’t think his previous owner walked him. He was all over the place and pulled. Horrible! I used your correction technique and he walks with me 95% better. Thank you. I will also continue to work with him about leash reactivity toward small dogs. Thank you for your videos. 🙏. Oh by the way my dog has no interest in treats when walking.
Great desk! Lol thumbs up to the video too 👍
Brilliant as always.
There's a great video called "Experienced mother dog teaches her puppies a lesson in patience." I encourage everyone to watch it. It shows exactly how dogs communicate with each other. Hint: Momma dog doesn't use treats.
In that video, momma dog is being jumped on by her puppies. She issues a verbal command, a bridge, if you will, then gives physical corrections. Physical corrections are a natural, instinctual way dogs communicate. Using a balanced method that includes negative stimuli is just talking to your dog in its own language, and that's why it works so well: your dog actually understands you.
thank you.
There's no way I wouldn't use punishment in training. Dogs absolutely have to know that a negative, unsafe, damaging behavior is unacceptable the moment they start into it.
You cannot reward a child with M&M's for behavior that is unacceptable. Since half of the issues stem from the human influence and the lack of regard of discipline in the home, that goes without saying it doesn't have to be label "mean", life is not always kumbaya. Ignorance is the highest form of leadership especially when dogs are jumping demanding of eye contact because casual dog handlers over use that as communication hence the dog's stemming behavior. As you say they must understand there are rules and punishments or they will continue to practice a behavior to the point where a professional such as ourselves is required. Great video!
Dogs thrive on a pack environment. Where there is an authoritative figure who provides the balance of discipline, safety, feeding, and bonding. Behavior amongst canines has allot of corrections and boundaries. Anyone who takes the responsibility to raise or care for a pet, need to aware and willing to take the mantle of the "boss/alpha" role. To ensure a balance and happy life for the pet. This gentlemen is the real deal when approaching and solving negative manners and promoting a healthy dog temperament.
I could never fully teach my dog to go on walks but I made some progress. Whenever he pulled, I corrected until he came back and sat down. I remember one time, it took me nearly one hour to just go up the street. It worked. The dog became calmer, didn't pull so much, but only with me.
I think y'all really need to hear this:
*Positive Reinforcement =* You give something TO your Dog. Something they like.
*Negative Reinforcement =* You REMOVE something unpleasant FROM your Dog.
*Positive Punishment =* You APPLY something unpleasant TO your Dog.
*Negative Punishment =* You TAKE AWAY something good FROM your Dog.
(Basically: Can have -- Don't have. > Can have -- Can't have.)
*Rewards can =* Food. Toys. Play. Petting. Fun activities. ANYTHING THE DOG ENJOYS.
*Punishment can =* Removal of play. Removal of fun. Pressure. Shrill, sudden noises. The element of surprise. Vibrations. A squirt from a Spray-Bottle. Ignoring your Dog. Standing still. Etc etc etc!
Lastly, *the WRONG kind of Punishment =:* Anything which inflicts _physical pain_ on your Dog. To which, we can ALL agree is a bad & terrible way of Training any animal!!!
Rational and natural. The way God made it to be. Thank you!
I really like you're you're style with training dogs i have to deal alot with positive owlny folks
Just going to say one thing, even though this video is very old, training methods should be tuned and scaled based on the dog and behavior that is being targeted. Proper use of a shock collar is going to be less harmful and less traumatic then the pop of a leash depending on the individual performing the training and the dog in question. On top of that some dogs simply do not respond to the shock collar (e-collar) at all given a high enough positive stimulus. This is seen with trained service (bite trained) dogs all the time where the shock collar becomes ineffective. Physical means then are required to stop the dog. But it all comes down to the trainer and how it is used. E-collars have been and are still used extremely effectively in bird dog trainings with no ill effects. Everyone should be training with the intention that positive punishment not be used in the end product but as you yourself have said, stopping behaviors is impossible without some sort of punishment in most cases. If you are competing with a bred dogs prey drive an e-collar may be a good option. But all training, no matter the operant conditioning region it is in, is going to be dependent on the specific trainer implementing that. And some things are easy to overdo or underdo when training goes your dog. Such as “lighting them up” with a collar when a vibration is all that would be required to realign their attention. My 2 cents. You don’t have to agree but the best dog trainers are incorporating every aspect of operant conditioning into each animal/client to find the most effective and fastest approach to solve a particular problem or teach a specific behavior.
Another super helpful video, thank you Joel!
Thanks Taylor
Hello sir my golden retriever is 1.5 year old male he doesn't like any dog he never waves his tail and always try to either dominate or be afraid pls help 🙏
This guy is so right and obviously gets Resultz!
I’m so glad you said that when they put the leash on that choke collar that’s a punishment
🤣YUP - Have a 1 yr old Aussie-Poodle mix (Aussie-doodle I guess) - I've been pouring over your videos the past two days and beginning to apply things I've seen you do. I've already seen improvement on the leash with a regular collar. I would like to find out the type of leash you are using and the gentle leader. I can't seem to find one that doesn't go over the forehead as well.
Thank you so much, love your vdos. Tried the positive reinforcement methods but it doesn't seem to work on my rescue mixed dog (that looks a lot like some sort of wolf-dog/swedish elkhound) that I got a few weeks ago. Been using the leash correction methods for the leash pulling and it's improved his behavior significantly.
However, he loves to mouth and softly bites me all the time playing rough that would bruise me or break my skin a bit. I am trying to show dominance by pinning him down whenever he gets too rough and pulling his collar wouldn't help but only aggravates him more. It seems to be working a bit, but he still does it so I decided to use an empty plastic water bottle to hit the floor to make a really loud noise which will stop him most of the time, but he will still try to mouth my hand or feet.
I actually decided to hit him with the empty bottle when he got really crazy and wouldn't stop. It seems be working, but I am wondering if it's a bad idea to use this method and if there will be any impact in the long run regarding his aggression.
I got him 2 weeks ago (vet thinks he's about 12-14 months old) by chance because no one else could find him a home and he was supposed to stay at mine temporarily. He is a lovely dog and became attached so we decided to keep him.
If anyone could give me some advice, that would be helpful. He is very smart but super stubborn so he loves to challenge me. I worry he will hurt other dogs and people if not trained properly. He did bite a friend of mine when his bike fell on him after it got tangled to his leash. My friend went over to get the bike off him and got bitten in the leg. I was told that it's an instinctive thing and most dogs will react that way, but I am now worried about him hurting other people.
He also bit a neighbor's dog that actually attacked him first because she was jealous of all the attention he was getting (our theory) because he wanted to play with her with his tail wagging but she just attacked him when he got close.
I am trying to desensitize him by slowly socializing him more with my brothers and nephews. He seems to be much more calm now when people walk by my house. And will gradually introduce him to other dogs step by step with a muzzle, etc. as Joel's reccomended in his other vdos.
Anyhow, I can't afford to hire any trainer yet, so I am trying to train him myself, just a bit worried if my method is bad or not. (The bottle is super light and wouldn't hurt him, but it's quite loud). Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
I have no idea if this will be helpful or not, but it can not harm:) I have a very jumpy, friendly, mouthy, 9 month old french mastiff. She was going in the wrong direction, and i tried pinning her down, and all that. Really didnt help, as she took it as a game.
Then I understood that i was stressed, nervous that she would become worse.. too agitated when working her. I learnd to take a deep breath, and remain calm inside, and use a gentle and calm voice with her. She changed overnight, literally. She is still the same happygolucky dog, but takes me more seriously. Jumping is reduced, and she jumps more in front of, than on. Mouthing , she gets a stern no.. and all fun stops right there. She is now mouthing a lot less.
Different dogs need different corrections, not every method works on every dog.
@@Goldenhawk583 thanks. Will try it!!
@@kampchin36 you are welcome, and like I said, it can not hurt.. I know I felt better, forcing myself to be calmer :)
Thanks
Wow, thanks so much
I went with my young dog to a trainer here in my village in germany. I did not know about the different methods and did not yet come across your videos (sadly). Now I know, that this trainer was one of these "positive reinforcement" people. And it did not work at all! She never actually, looking back, told me HOW to fix pulling and such. Only to overwhelm my dog with treats when he does not pull. But how to get him there...well :D I followed your method now, my dog is 3 1/2 years old and it worked after a few corrections. Interestingly, i remember one time while having a private session with her, on a walk with my dog, she even stepped on his paws to "correct" him. Which seemed overly harsh, especially considering her positive philosophy.
Joel, you might create less resistance if you referred to “punishments” as “consequences, because it seems more accurate. Extreme actions, like heavy use of a shock collar, that is punishment. I really like your approach, and it’s helped our 8-mo old spaniel puppy become a more solid citizen. If we can successfully navigate through this teen fear phase, I think we’ll win. Keep the videos coming. Very helpful!
Yeah or wailing on a dog open handed as hard as possible could be considered a punishment. Seen that more than e collars getting out of hand... Every points to e collars being the most brutal when I see more physical force being used about inappropriately on a daily basis.
I see what you're saying and I'm indifferent about it. It's just semantics. I just wanted to add an alternative scenario as to not give e collars a bad rep unnecessarily.
I understand what you're saying but he's right when he calls it punishment. It is a form of punishment and he doesn't sugar coat it. Even if he was to use the word consequences the positive only people would still bash him. The wording doesn't matter. What matters is that people need to realize positive only training doesn't work in most cases. It's sad cause i've seen dogs be put down because the owners were so sure that you should only do positive only because they didn't want to get looked down upon by other people and then their dog ends up attacking one too many dogs or ends up attacking a person. People need to stop worrying about what others may think and start focusing on the best way to train.
@@mistytorres3593 100%
@@mistytorres3593 I agree with @laureldesign. The vast majority of people watching these videos aren't animal behaviourists, and the word "punishment" has a lot of negative connotations, even if it's technically correct from an animal behavioralist's standpoint. Consequence is far less loaded, and people would be more open to it. Except for those who feel a need to take their anger issues out on their animals, in the name of training, and are too controlling. We both know there are way too many of that type of person. Not talking about you, obviously, just the general audience for dog training videos.
Punishment is a word in learning theory. Chill dude
spot on ... 100% agree
using a e collar is not only used for positive punishment you can use it for negative reinforcement
How about if the dog is scared and becomes reactive,shaking and barking, when they meet another dog, could a bit of treat help that is not a bad thing, as oh I see a dog i get a treat, I am fine, I am not scared,maybe not to overdo, I definitely used both of your methods of getting out of the door, and apply a bit o pressure to the leash if my dog get to ahead of me, and also turn away to reduce that excitement
Not only does "positive-only" training not work to have a perfectly well-behaved dog, it's also just creepy. Some of the most die-hard positive trainers, like Zak George for example, give off this weird toxic positivity vibe that is unnerving. It's not normal to be like that. It's okay to express your disapproval of things sometimes and let your dog know it's doing something wrong. The world isn't going to end because you express a stern emotion.
Yeah I agree, I don't like the vide of dogs that have been trained "force-free" either and what kind of relationship is that anyway? A dog that only likes you and listens because you provide them with fun things? I think you get a much deeper connection with your dog when you use balanced training. If you punish a dog and he still loves you and still wants to be around you it is so much more meaningfull.
Aversive training is not about expressing any emotions, stern or not stern. It is about using pain- or fear-of-pain-based tools in training
@@agatakochanska6711 We're talking about BALANCED dog training, weirdo.
You have to suppress perfectly healthy emotions (like frustration and anger) in order to be positive only. Those emotions still have to go somewhere, they don’t just vanish. They normally bubble up in the form of passive aggression, condescension, superiority & self righteousness - which is exactly what you see in the depths of the positive-only community. Being a balanced trainer comes from being an emotionally balanced human being.
@@agatakochanska6711 There's an excellent video called "Experienced mother dog teaches her puppies a lesson in patience." It's 2 minutes long, and shows a mother dog give physical corrections to her puppies. She doesn't lure them with treats, ignore them until the behavior dies out on its own, or any of the other "force-free" methods. She gives a verbal cue (a growl) then snaps and muzzle punches them. Every single puppy understands that she's saying "No!" Dogs don't communicate with treats and praise. Physical corrections are a natural language for dogs. Treats are not.
Some online article and people said that dominance, being stern and having strict discipline to your dog is antiquated and they EMPHASIZED positive reinforcement as much as possible.
Im here coz im having doubts bout the methods. Im slowly starting to notice my puppy is acting spoiled, it’s not funny anymore especially when it’s an aggressive rough-biting-play towards other smaller puppies and kids
Love it
Really interesting talk
you know what happened when i used positive only training with my terrier and his counter surfing? he started doing it when I was out of the room. sure, it can SOMETIMES limit the behavior when you are around but the moment you leave its all going to shit. so now I have to put a plate of some really yummy fragrant food on a table, leave the room with a camera set up and use an e collar the moment he puts his paws up.
Good content :), and absolutely true :), look forward to more listening to more content like this, breaking into learning theory :). Not to mention 98% of all the well known/respected trainers/behaviourists, use all 4 operants, which is a clear indication that they are all necessary when changing behaviour, and it is the severity of each operant that counts not if it is used.
If all four operants are so cool, then why, do you think, we don't use light electric shocks to enhance our kids' upbringing process? The reason is quite simple: although aversive teaining generalizes more quickly, there is a price for this and we learnt from psychology that it is not worth paying in the case of kids. Do you think it is worth paying in the case of dogs we're responsible for?
@@agatakochanska6711
Can you please explain to me how to positively reinforce train a child who repeatedly punches other kids in the face. I actually would like to know how this works. And if it’s ok that those other kids are getting punched. And does the kid get treated the whole time whilst he is not punching the other kid, but it isn’t reprimanded in any way ??
@@Nicurfe your question approaches the problem from the wrong end. My approach would be, first, to control the child's environment in such a way that punching other kids would not be possible (this is called management in dog training, I believe, and good management is not only possible, but is also a necessity and can work wonders in the whole process of behavior modification) and, secondly, try to find out WHY the kid repeatedly punched other children. Without finding a satisfactory answer to the question neither giving treats nor reprimanding would really work, because this would involve merely dealing with symptoms, not the causes
@@agatakochanska6711 I tried positive reinforcement training for weeks on my rescue dog who comes to work with me every day. It was attention seeking barking. He had me in sight constantly. When he wasn’t getting attention or right beside me, barked all day causing myself to be distressed and exhausted and my work mate to be frustrated and upset. Also, getting himself more worked up and upset.
I tried positive reinforcing him every time, in the rare times he stopped. Incrementally. I am a fan of positively training behaviours.
Feeling helpless and totally worn out, I watched the video from Beckman’s about barking. No hitting the dog, no harm caused. Problem literally solved in a day. Result, dog is so chilled. Not only is he fine at work, but also everywhere else, including tied up outside a shop whilst I go in which was impossible before. Our relationship is far better, as he is now more calm and attentive. He is far happier. I am far happier. So is everyone around. Why are you on this site by the way?? To talk about how it’s wrong??
@@agatakochanska6711 i am so stoked and grateful for these videos. Helping both myself and my dog to have a better relationship and life together
i agree you need to use positive and negative { punishment } to many ppl think you just need to let a dog be a dog , bs .
I totally get that dogs aren't kids, all that. But something similar to the 'positive reinforcement' dynamic happened to my physically agile, athletic son, who is pretty bright. He noticed super early in life that EVERYONE got blue ribbons for EVERYTHING, even when they quite obviously didn't 'get it' or obviously lost a game. That dynamic really messed him up for a long time, creating a smart, but bored guy. He didn't bother trying after a while. I didn't understand it well enough then, but yes, duh, why try harder, why make the effort to do your best when everyone gets rewarded anyway? A kid's mind has to mature a lot to understand why he should go the extra mile in the face of that. A smart, bored , active kid is a bad combination in school. Wish i was stronger about voicing that to school authorities when i was a young Mom. Same idea, i believe. There are times in life everyone learns when they lose a little, suffer a little. Everybody watching learns, too. Multi dog families with one counter surfer will have 3 counter surfers by the end of the week if they don't get on that
I'm a shock collar guy, but use the beeps more than the zaps. And I have yet to turn it beyond 3/7.
That said, I only use it to fine tune in a timely fashion. I never use it on a new dog, giving them time to lower their anxiety. An anxious dog will only see the zaps as just another thing to cry about. Half the time, I have the collar in the pouch of my hoodie and she acts like it's still on. The remote still gets results. It's actually pretty funny, but only because my dogs never need them for long to form good habits.
What about biting?! My 8 month old pup is getting a little more aggressive with the biting and he has now resulted in biting at the ankles when we ignore him for the behavior and it’s really annoying. I usually just end up putting him in his kennel for a bit so he can calm down. But if he feels ignored, he’ll get your ankles.
I use an ecollar but it is 90% an audible beep or a momentary vibration for recall. The 10% when I use the stimulate it is a recall when the dog is not responding. My dogs are hunting dogs.
But I know positive reenforcement does not work. How do dogs work in a pack. It is not positive reenvorcement.
My 7 year old lab taught my 12 wk old English setter to potty train. She is 90% potty trained after 3 weeks. It was nice.
my son ran in front of a speeding truck. I calmly walked over there and carried his injured body to the hospital and he got better. now every time he is around a footpath I follow him, dropping treats and saying YES! when he doesnt walk in front of a speeding truck. Good Son!! drop a treat. he decides to take a taxi to school, i follow the taxi and drop treats into his taxi window saying "very good boy! such a good son!"
My dog bites (trys to) if someone hurts him,e.g.at the vet.most times he's good there injections, etc.no problem but touching where it hurts.he will react. Or when mostly children want to pet him so badly and do not respect his personal space. he is a grown up,and doesn't want to be petted by everyone... This is a problem,as he also barks to keep people and kids at bay.does it mean that he doesn't trust me enough that I'll keep those people away? On the other hand, it's really difficult when he wouldn't keep next to me indoors all the time and so kids can run after him all the time.ok I gave myself one piece of the answer...train the kids... But there are dogs who would at least growl...
PURE GOLD regarding not needing to use prong and shock collars: 8:24 (I won't use my prong again!)
What's crazy is I am in dog training school and I specifically asked "if my client had an adult mastif that was dominant and leash reactive on a flat collar and I don't think a gentle leader would do the trick, would you suggest I use corrections at that point?" I was told to graduate to a prong collar instead of using corrections.
My stander poodle is a year old now and she is still in the fear phase around new people . She’s also getting terrible worh window barking. Shutting her out of the room doesn’t work because the doors to the room has clear glass. She can still see in and will still bark. My posit to r reinforcement trainer has me stand there and every time she looks out the window I’m supposed to click and treat to teach her it’s no big deal. I haven’t been practicing it so I do t know if that method is even practical. Our previous dog only barked if she actually saw a dog or animal or person coming up. Our dog now barks at nothing .
How do you suggest getting a dog to quickly love their harness or gentle leader? I still can’t put the gentle leader on her fully. Our previous dog let us out anything on her . But we always just put things on even if she didn’t like it. Now that say it’s bad to do that. This standard poodle is a very sensitive dog. Still very much a puppy at 14 months old
Your answer is in your comment. You had a well-behaved dog that wasn't fearful, and accepted it's collars without problems. Now you're thinking you have to change your methods because of the only positive reinforcement trainer. Forget that guy and go back to what worked. positive reinforcement, in my experience, is great for basic commands and tricks. Tell your trainer you want to teach your dog tricks. He'll be happy the dog will be happy and you'll be happy with the new tricks. If there are issues that need correcting, you need your own experience or Joel.
This is for very rare situations but you need to gain control. Thank you for your vids brother
What is the best way to fix resource gardene
The last “force free” trainer I talked to recommend to me, without even meeting my dog first, that I should put my dog on anti anxiety meds and that I might just have to accept that I’ll always have an anxious/aggressive dog... and then she tried to charge me $60 for that advice... NO THANKS!
Common story
Wow!! Never heard that before (we're in Germany)
If she was upset that you didn't pay it's only because she will always be anxious and aggressive and needs to be put on anti-anxiety meds.
@@BDTraining I have a friend who's blue heeler has been on prozac it's whole life (not allowed to have bones, not allowed to chase a ball etc etc). Lovely dog. Responds to training efforts fast.
I wish I could get enough time with him to apply your methods and give him a better life.
That's what they do to humans as well. Here is a pill! No need for therapy, it's not going to help anyway. And people BUY IT. Shove Ritalin down a 5 year Olds throat until he's a zombie that can't eat.
Maybe you can ad this video to a new playlist so people can find easily you're background an what is the problem with positive reinforcement? Or even better a playlist of controversial topics such as for example dominance, difference between positive, balanced or training according to the dominance theory? It would be very useful for us owners if we were criticized in the street or during a discussion that corrections are outdated.
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Can you show how you use “punishment” for counter surfing. Our 3 year old Australian is generally well behaved and listens, but this is one behavior we can’t seem to prevent. Thank you!
"watch a fear reactive dog make friends" i think covers it. It was a video with an Australien Shepherd aswell. Theyre sitting in the office when he talks about it.
Watch Cesar Millan, he addresses this issue manyany times. Set your food on the table and make your correction sound ("tshhh" or "ah-ah", etc.) every time she jumps up or even starts sniffing it. Set them up for success by not leaving food out. Then set it on the coffee table and do the same. Set your food on the floor and keep her away from it the same way. You can also do this exercise with her food bowl at mealtimes. They jump at the food bowl, bowl comes back up out of reach. Bring the bowl down when they wait. It comes back up if they move toward it. It's like a puzzle game to them, to figure out how to get their food. It also teaches them that all food belongs to you and comes from you (because they can't read your grocery bill!). Say "ok!" or some kind of release word once you can set the food down and doggo is still waiting and not going crazy. McCann Dog Training has good videos on how to do this.
I remember when I taught my dog where to release himself. Since then, whenever he did it, he came to us, wagging his tail. We'd pet him. He was the gooddest boy for going to the bathroom in the correct place. The first time we reprehended him for doing it in the house, though, I felt bad. The poor thing cried. Like, tears were coming out of his eyes. Well there was one time he went to the bathroom in the correct place, technically... in our actual bathroom. But it was a stormy day so we didn't punish him, because he already knew where to go potty. He was just terrified of the storm.
My dog peed in the house like right in the middle of the room during NY fireworks first year. He peed so long and just starred at us in fear while he did it (we quickly put an empty glass in the way of the pee so there was no real damage). He knew very well no peeing inside, this was not marking or on purpose he just could not hold it but was too afraid to go outside. Poor thing. Now I know to insist on a small walk for pee whenever a storm is coming or right before fireworks.
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I work at a Daycare where 2 positive only trainers are. They make more $ than me, and many of their clients come to me after them.
Serious question, why do they make more money than you, do they charge more money, have more clients, etc?
@@BDTraining more clients. I live in a suburb of Chicago and people are really into positive only everything. They come to me and ask me not to tell the other trainers. They feel shame. Also, I could definently put more effort into the hr part of things. So I could do more.
@@bubbag8895 most likely your methods get results where theirs don’t. Don’t be afraid to charge more than them.
It’s does take patience. Not every one can do it.
The 'positive reinforcement' didn't stop the orcas from killing those trainers, did it?
wow what happened?
@@OptimusPrime-dz9md Joel said that the 'positive reinforcement only' was used on the orcas he and others trained. People harp about how superior and foolproof this method of training is and what an incredible bond of trust, respect and understanding it creates. My point was only that several of those whales killed their trainers nonetheless.
@@solideomusical shit that's horrible
Theres a difference between a domesticated dog and a wild animal kept in captivity and both groups need different strategies. Also dogs are happy living with us in our homes, orcas in bathtubs are not happy.
@@kylaaustin2557 Dogs are happy being trapped in our homes? That's a lie lol.
Hello sir my golden retriever is 1.5 year old male he doesn't like any dog he never waves his tail and always try to either dominate or be afraid pls help 🙏
You could sign up for an online session at my website at Beckmansdogtraining.com that’s the best place to start.
Instead of using the word “punishment” use the word “correction” and everyone is happy. 😂
They are angry people. I am a trainer who loves learning from others. I don't think I know everything and I hope I never do. The rigid thinking coupled with the condescending tone of positive reinforcement only trainers is just plain rude. I also love how much they say "get with the science." I actually have several science degrees and a research background. I've read through studies cited in positive reinforcement only trainers videos and websites and I find it should be written like this: "studies." The statistical tests used are sometimes the wrong tests to measure the construct and they are not actual studies, more like opinions. Many are missing key sections (limitations, methods, etc). When someone constantly says "get with the science" but clearly does not understand said science it should be taken with a grain of salt, especially when it is said in a condescending tone.
This is so true. Most of these so called animal rights activists would not lift a finger to help a person dying of hunger on the street, but they would save any animal from abuse. So much hypocrisy
Treats just say a dog is doing something right. So if you give a dog a treat when he jumps, he will naturally think it's okay to do it. You should give a dog a treat when it's warranted. Like when he brings you the newspapper. My dog did this to me and I did give him a treat. I would never treat my dog when he was being an a-hole.
People don’t think I’m terms of different levels know. Unfortunately everything in some peoples mind has same value. It’s sad!
What about pinching a dog just enough to simulate a nip when they're doing wrong, kind of how dogs do to each other, is that reasonable?
I just about ordered a sprenger prong collar for my dog. He's young, not neutered (yet) big and strong, and has a bite that could do damage if he is raised wrong.
I also have a shock collar we used on one of our past dogs. (It didn't work).
I will not order the prong and decommission the shock collar.
Thank you.
I’ve never been concerned about a dog who’s master dominates them when necessary, but I’ve seen so many people with pos rein dog training who’s dogs end up nurotic and desperate for attention and praise… sometimes to the point of being dangerous
Positive Only is like raising your dog on an iPad with screen time.
That Facebook group is hilarious. 😅
Would a "baahhh" in a gravely voice work for a correction to bad behavior?
I had to delete and reword my original comment.
I mean saying no, to dogs is common across all languages, dogs don’t really care about the word you use, they care more about your tone. Dogs know the tone you talk to them in so as long as it’s a baaahhh in like an angry tone and the dog knows it’s an angry tone it’ll work
Logic 101.
god
I don’t understand the hostility that comes from many here towards +R training. Of course it can be done badly as balanced training can too. But both methods can be trained very well. Just aim to be a better trainer and better at understanding your dog. They weren’t born to obey you. It should be about gaining a great connection with your dog and enjoying time with them.
Someone somewhere has the statistics that show how much money Victoria Stilwell earns every time Cesar is villified. It's like it's her entire marketing campaign. I like watching her, I like watching you, and I like watching Cesar. If you freeze-framed her in the moment when a dog hits the end of the leash, though, it wouldn't matter that she made a cute high-pitched noise and turned the other way. It would be about her strangling the dog to inflict pain on it or cut off its air flow. I guess nobody has weaponized millions of people to do that kind of attack work against her. And these folks act like all Cesar does is inflict pain all day, when I'm sure I've seen him sit quietly for an hour, or give a massage, or use essential oils... definitely treats are there. maybe it's his followers who "use his techniques" but forget about the time, petetition and patience part, I don't know. Thank you for naming this.
By the way Cesar adoptees Holly who bit him and knees in the chest and jabs neck and gained respect ✊ for life here’s the video
ruclips.net/video/9ihXq_WwiWM/видео.html