Just like I told Richard Holdener several weeks ago during a live show, the cross ram is the best tunnel ram that fits under your stock hood. Chevy designed it because the SCCA Trans Am series rules said the carbs had to fit under the stock hood.
I really appreciate the cross ram..... my oldest brother had a Weiand cross ram on his 70 SS Camaro in the mid 70s it was just so cool looking and he didn't have to hack the SS hood
Yeah, those PENSKE CAMAROS with a DZ 302 defeated the BOSS 302 mustangs in the 68 and 69 Trans AM series ..! 😎 I wish i had one of those cross rams the DZ 302 Camaros had under those hoods ..! CHEVROLET MOTOR COMPANY would not help Rodger Penske at all so he went to the AMC Javelins in 1970 😮
@@dinadaughtry8993 sorta. As the video says, engineers came up with the tunnel ram on their spare time and dime, cutting off the tubes until they hit the right formula. then they hung the runners over the valve covers of the 413, which sucked if you had solid lifters and needed to reset 'em every 3K. so they did the intake you're thinking of.
@@albertgaspar627 The more familiar Crossram came about on the '62 413 Max Wedge MoPar engines. The earlier over the valvecover intake system was called "Sonoramic" and I think was available on full size Chryslers until about '64 or '65.
If you want to modify the tunnel ram or the cross ram it's easier to balance out the ports and and modify the 5 and 7 ports to help out from Robing each other. Also you can put dams in the bottom of the crossram to help with fuel distribution. They did it with the Smokey rams.
This channel and this video is AWFUL. It's the same trash they show on TV. It's all fake. It's all dumb. Go watch Uncle Tony's Garage or Cold War Motors of any of a hundred other better shows made by real mechanics on real budgets without any of the fake drama.
Very informative! Too bad Dyno sessions are so expensive. And so few people have the experience and knowledge to run them! Keep making videos along these lines please!
@@Texasmule The 3X2 bbls all had accelerator pumps ( came off a GM 409) so the total CFM was 1300. Actually I went back to the one thermoquad Carter to run in Super Stock class. The cross ram made the 340 very torquey and great for 1/8th use but it fell into a modified class and not near the power of the blown cars in the class.
Great info. I'm about to put bigger heads and a weiand tunnel ram on my Chevy II , so this stuff is great to watch. It's surprising how well the cross ram performed when all the magazines I've ever read have said how soggy these manifolds are and one should stay away from them.
I have to say so far on my MotorTrend delve, Engine Masters has been my favorite episodes. You have the nerdy op for techies, power bangers for speed freaks, the close circle of coworkers/buddies meshing together on an objective topic, and the histroical nature to preserve information and numerical data. While I do enjoy Frieburger and Finnegan a bunch with the garbage builds, this show does give a scientific gravitas to further help the layman try to work on his rig on his own property.
Crossram all the way! The sound is so cool. Plus if used like how the AMX scramblers first pioneered, with a forced induction hood. They can match a tunnel ram
The very first tunnel ram I saw was home made from an early Rochester mechanical fuel injection manifold from a Corvette. It did pretty well. But today, it's considered heresy! LOL
Eh, I wouldn't expect a different result. If anything might be different.....it would almost certainly favor the tunnel ram even more so. The 302 is peanut sized and gives up power to larger displacement SBC. It's the engine Chevy never would have built if not for the strict 305cu in limitation in the race rules of Trans Am. The only advantage found in super short stroke 302 is it's ability to run to higher RPMs more safely than the longer stoke bigger displacement engines. With that said and looking at how the Cross Ram and Tunnel ram run really close together under 5000RPM and how the Tunnel Ram begins to show an advantage above that level......it's hard to imagine how the Tunnel Ram advantage doesn't just get even BIGGER as RPM increases in the Smaller Mouse Motor.
Modifying a Weiand tunnel ram for a BBM right now! The top was WAY off from matching the bottom and had to do a lot of port work. It's on my RUclips channel.
To me, this is the biggest benefit of proper port fuel injection. Not the Bolt on injection systems that are basically electronic carburetor, but real fuel injection. You can get a manifold with long runners (or variable length in some OEM applications) with substantially less issues with distribution. When it comes to tuning, fuel injection (especially the current batch of aftermarket solutions) are light years easier than trying to make individual jet and air bleed changes on multiple carburetors. On top of that, you get improved driveability, improved fuel economy and vastly improved cold starting.
The “electric carb” you speak of is a product they endorse for one... And for two, you can tune them... add some timing control via the ignition kit and you’ll blow any carb out the water. Cmon man the things read the O2 sensor and adjust fuelling for ideal ratios almost out of the box.
@@dylanzrim3635 and still offer all the fuel distribution issues of a single carb! and I speak from experience that tuning a Holley carb for start up and cold running is so much easier than the earlier edelbrock efi and even Holley sniper efi,yeah they self tune “sort of” but not like a good set of ears and nose can! Using a target rpm and a target mixture for a desired idle not having any means of ve tuning is a compromise a carby can do! not sure about some of the other carb looking systems some impressive features indeed! all have their merits especially for simplifying a conversion, though they all still have nothing on port injection and a Haltech or similar for management.
I recently picked up an Edelbrock P22 dual-qual intake for 55-64 Pontiac 389's. The price was right and 1406's carbs are a dime a dozen used. That nostalgic look. The challenge of setting it up right. the P22 is a dual plane design.
I made the decision to purchase an Offenhausr Crossram for my '56 Chevy project a few years ago. I have just about got all the engine parts and I still have work to do on the block and maching. The engine is a 400 block with a 327 stroke, flat tappet cam (a copy of an original Off-Road Z cam both first and second stage) to begin with. I also have both the single 4 and the dual 4 top for this manifold. It is going to be fun to play around and see what combination I can come up with that is the most impressive for my budget. If the times are slower than expected, I will be upping the camshaft to something a bit more aggressive, maybe a mechanical roller. This is finally a video about the crossram that makes a sensible comparison of what can be expected. Thanks for posting this.
I sold a polished Offy cross ram intake to a guy a few years ago, and he said it was going in a 56 Chevy. Northern Kentucky area. Havent seen the finished product but he had big plans for an unusual build.
Long ram = huge torque. Nick's Garage did a comparo on a 63 Chrysler 300J with a 413. The single quad had a higher horsepower rating, but the long ram intake delivered the torque in spades.
I wish somebody would do a test on the Weiand SuperStock 440 sixpack tunnel ram P3690982 . I have always wondered if they make good power on a stroker performance engine or even stock 440.
I could watch these vids all day. When it comes down to it, I would rather own and operate a dyno vs. having a race car. Then again, I'm old and sore 24/7.
As to driving styles. Being biased towards lateral g forces, vs wham bam thank you mame. The top end power would come in at the top end with forced air induction. Cowl induction allowing greater visibility, and induction. A win, win.
I want t revisit your "Six Pack shootout" show. You should get a set of Holley carbs with mechanical secondaries. They were made. I had mine set up on bell-crank lnkage for 3/4 throttle before i brought in the out side carbs. No bog...just power
So instead of it simply being a larger engine makes it's power at a lower RPM with the cross ram, it's more of more intake pulses per second making it work, which needs a smaller engine to have that higher number.
To make my engine tune closer from the beginning, ( Edelbrock crossram), care to divulge the jet sizes on all eight jets. I’m in Albuquerque so I’m just looking for someplace to start.
Can't wait to try my RSR (real street ram) on my L79 65 Acadian Canso CDN (chevy11) Ran a few Eddies w/660's in the 70's worked decent but this should be very streetable so I drive it more
I always wanted to try the Weiand tunnel ram on my 440 mopar but wasn't sure about carb selection. Two 750 double pumpers or two edelbrock 750s ? Or two 600s ?
Simultaneous-opening square carburetors with each runner physically divided from the other runners all the way to carb bottom would afford more control, but discard the benefits of the plenum.
Really like the cross ram. Bet the power drops a bunch compared to the tunnel ram when put in the vehicle. Under hood temps will rob it. But ya won't have to cut the hood and it just looks cooler than a tunnel ram, imo.
now that you have changed jets in the carbys it would be a more even comparison if you used those newly jetted carbs to redo the other manifolds first pulls? also for the baseline, of course.
Now y'all should do some runs with a Single Top on the Cross Ram, say like NASCAR HEMI STYLE,and see what that looks like. Lots of Power and Very Efficient.👍👍
I'm working on an old 360 D100 and thinking "Man that looks cool".... Looked up the cross ram and they are right. The cost is reflex-burst-out-laugh ridiculous.
then Chevy "played it again Sam" in the 1980's with their ceasefire CrossFire setup on Vettes and Z28's. I keep findin' 'em for $100 a pop, nearly makes me want to pass up $75 edelbrock single quad intakes with peeling paint.
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Just like I told Richard Holdener several weeks ago during a live show, the cross ram is the best tunnel ram that fits under your stock hood. Chevy designed it because the SCCA Trans Am series rules said the carbs had to fit under the stock hood.
I really appreciate the cross ram..... my oldest brother had a Weiand cross ram on his 70 SS Camaro in the mid
70s it was just so cool looking and he didn't have to hack the SS hood
Mopar built it first I thought, late fifties early sixties? max wedge?
Yeah, those PENSKE CAMAROS with a DZ 302 defeated the BOSS 302 mustangs in the 68 and 69 Trans AM series ..! 😎 I wish i had one of those cross rams the DZ 302 Camaros had under those hoods ..! CHEVROLET MOTOR COMPANY would not help Rodger Penske at all so he went to the AMC Javelins in 1970 😮
@@dinadaughtry8993 sorta. As the video says, engineers came up with the tunnel ram on their spare time and dime, cutting off the tubes until they hit the right formula. then they hung the runners over the valve covers of the 413, which sucked if you had solid lifters and needed to reset 'em every 3K. so they did the intake you're thinking of.
@@albertgaspar627
The more familiar Crossram came about on the '62 413 Max Wedge MoPar engines. The earlier over the valvecover intake system was called "Sonoramic" and I think was available on full size Chryslers until about '64 or '65.
I would sacrifice that little bit of power and choose the cross ram over the tunnel.
No hood hacking 👍👍
Just saved me writing the same thing! The tower must match the power!
@@needmoreboost6369 Did you mean to rhyme that time?
Depending on the application hoods are relatively cheap enough that you could have one circumcised for the tunnel ram and uncircumcised for the cross.
Once you get that cowl induction hood, I'm sure the hp would come up anyway. That little bit of boost goes a long way.
@@needmoreboost6369 👍 awesome
If you want to modify the tunnel ram or the cross ram it's easier to balance out the ports and and modify the 5 and 7 ports to help out from Robing each other. Also you can put dams in the bottom of the crossram to help with fuel distribution. They did it with the Smokey rams.
This channel and this video is AWFUL. It's the same trash they show on TV. It's all fake. It's all dumb. Go watch Uncle Tony's Garage or Cold War Motors of any of a hundred other better shows made by real mechanics on real budgets without any of the fake drama.
ive only wanted to see a test like this for like 16 years now. love it!
Very informative! Too bad Dyno sessions are so expensive. And so few people have the experience and knowledge to run them! Keep making videos along these lines please!
This is all a lie and you're making things up. All except the you not being able to afford it part
Love the looks and performance of that cross ram, great test.
I love ALL the engine master stuff, great job.
I have run a two 4 bbl Cross ram and a 3X 2bbl factory intake on my 71 Dodge Demon 340.
The 3x2bbl actually performed the best.
Probably because the smaller jets
@@Texasmule The 3X2 bbls all had accelerator pumps ( came off a GM 409) so the total CFM was 1300.
Actually I went back to the one thermoquad Carter to run in Super Stock class.
The cross ram made the 340 very torquey and great for 1/8th use but it fell into a modified class and not near the power of the blown cars in the class.
I like the tunnel ram WAY better, it looks great on my truck, a 72 Chevy Cheyenne super, its a great little truck!!!
Fryburger is a genius in the car world! Love the Roadkill series with Finnegan! Best show on Motortrend
I love the radiator hose setup. Put 4 Webers on and use steel belted radiator hoses and it would be a sweet-looking setup.
Tunnel ram under $100.
Great info. I'm about to put bigger heads and a weiand tunnel ram on my Chevy II , so this stuff is great to watch. It's surprising how well the cross ram performed when all the magazines I've ever read have said how soggy these manifolds are and one should stay away from them.
I have to say so far on my MotorTrend delve, Engine Masters has been my favorite episodes. You have the nerdy op for techies, power bangers for speed freaks, the close circle of coworkers/buddies meshing together on an objective topic, and the histroical nature to preserve information and numerical data. While I do enjoy Frieburger and Finnegan a bunch with the garbage builds, this show does give a scientific gravitas to further help the layman try to work on his rig on his own property.
Which begs the question, What would the cross-ram do with 1" or 2" carb spacers on it?
Yes yes, we need to know!
You guy's are living the dreams of every motor head in high-school...atleast that's what I dreamed about...
Crossram all the way! The sound is so cool. Plus if used like how the AMX scramblers first pioneered, with a forced induction hood. They can match a tunnel ram
Hard to beat a good single plane 4 barrel setup all around.
Except it made worse power. Dude if you're going over 6900 rpm all the time maybe.
Umm did you not watch the video? It did the worst of the whole group 😂
The very first tunnel ram I saw was home made from an early Rochester mechanical fuel injection manifold from a Corvette. It did pretty well. But today, it's considered heresy! LOL
Just saw Luckys video David. The Disgustang is looking good. Quite the opposite of what it started looking like !👍💪
Engine Masters!?!? I'm just seeing this for the first time. What a huge bag of useful information. Thank you
It’s a great show! Learned a lot from watching their tests.
@@RecklessEnterainment I've really enjoyed watching Roadkill, and now I'm finding numerous other shows by the fellas. They are all good.
I love Engine Masters! Steve, you will be missed, enjoy your retirement!!!
great test D
Great show! Great video! I agree with another viewer. Test it on a 302 which it was designed for vs the tunnel ram.
Eh, I wouldn't expect a different result. If anything might be different.....it would almost certainly favor the tunnel ram even more so. The 302 is peanut sized and gives up power to larger displacement SBC. It's the engine Chevy never would have built if not for the strict 305cu in limitation in the race rules of Trans Am. The only advantage found in super short stroke 302 is it's ability to run to higher RPMs more safely than the longer stoke bigger displacement engines. With that said and looking at how the Cross Ram and Tunnel ram run really close together under 5000RPM and how the Tunnel Ram begins to show an advantage above that level......it's hard to imagine how the Tunnel Ram advantage doesn't just get even BIGGER as RPM increases in the Smaller Mouse Motor.
Modifying a Weiand tunnel ram for a BBM right now! The top was WAY off from matching the bottom and had to do a lot of port work. It's on my RUclips channel.
To me, this is the biggest benefit of proper port fuel injection. Not the Bolt on injection systems that are basically electronic carburetor, but real fuel injection. You can get a manifold with long runners (or variable length in some OEM applications) with substantially less issues with distribution. When it comes to tuning, fuel injection (especially the current batch of aftermarket solutions) are light years easier than trying to make individual jet and air bleed changes on multiple carburetors. On top of that, you get improved driveability, improved fuel economy and vastly improved cold starting.
yeah but it's not as cool or challenging.
Basically an electronic carburettor- I like that term mind if I use it
The “electric carb” you speak of is a product they endorse for one...
And for two, you can tune them... add some timing control via the ignition kit and you’ll blow any carb out the water.
Cmon man the things read the O2 sensor and adjust fuelling for ideal ratios almost out of the box.
@@dylanzrim3635 and still offer all the fuel distribution issues of a single carb! and I speak from experience that tuning a Holley carb for start up and cold running is so much easier than the earlier edelbrock efi and even Holley sniper efi,yeah they self tune “sort of” but not like a good set of ears and nose can! Using a target rpm and a target mixture for a desired idle not having any means of ve tuning is a compromise a carby can do! not sure about some of the other carb looking systems some impressive features indeed! all have their merits especially for simplifying a conversion, though they all still have nothing on port injection and a Haltech or similar for management.
Gm knew what they were doing years ago! Go Roger and Smokey!
Love you guys !! Love these vids !!, thank you !!
I recently picked up an Edelbrock P22 dual-qual intake for 55-64 Pontiac 389's. The price was right and 1406's carbs are a dime a dozen used. That nostalgic look. The challenge of setting it up right. the P22 is a dual plane design.
I made the decision to purchase an Offenhausr Crossram for my '56 Chevy project a few years ago. I have just about got all the engine parts and I still have work to do on the block and maching. The engine is a 400 block with a 327 stroke, flat tappet cam (a copy of an original Off-Road Z cam both first and second stage) to begin with. I also have both the single 4 and the dual 4 top for this manifold. It is going to be fun to play around and see what combination I can come up with that is the most impressive for my budget. If the times are slower than expected, I will be upping the camshaft to something a bit more aggressive, maybe a mechanical roller. This is finally a video about the crossram that makes a sensible comparison of what can be expected. Thanks for posting this.
I sold a polished Offy cross ram intake to a guy a few years ago, and he said it was going in a 56 Chevy. Northern Kentucky area. Havent seen the finished product but he had big plans for an unusual build.
Man I love this show
Can't wait to try my old 6 Pack STR intake on my 440
You lucky dog. Enjoy!
We had a 69 road runner 383 Magnum with a tunnel ram it really did make a difference
There is no more cool factor, than a tunnel Ram !
David Vizard could fix that tunnel ram.
I luv a cross ram...even made several tops for the cross fire fuel injection intake manifold.
Long ram = huge torque.
Nick's Garage did a comparo on a 63 Chrysler 300J with a 413. The single quad had a higher horsepower rating, but the long ram intake delivered the torque in spades.
I love old school gear that runs hard
Cross ram makes for a better sleeper XD
I wish somebody would do a test on the Weiand SuperStock 440 sixpack tunnel ram P3690982 . I have always wondered if they make good power on a stroker performance engine or even stock 440.
About 17 guys got the "marvelous" allusion.
I could watch these vids all day. When it comes down to it, I would rather own and operate a dyno vs. having a race car. Then again, I'm old and sore 24/7.
Am with you on that, was a race car chassis builder, got Crohn's disease, nerve damage, hurts to be alive
@@davidkepley9634 quit eating GLUTEN and see if ya feel better..? 😊😮
I'm Speechless right now!🤣
As to driving styles. Being biased towards lateral g forces, vs wham bam thank you mame. The top end power would come in at the top end with forced air induction. Cowl induction allowing greater visibility, and induction. A win, win.
Each cylinders had o2 sensors so the could tell fuel to air ratio or each cylinder
yeah that's the way to go for sure. We didn't have that luxury in the 70s or 80s even
Could you do an Engine Masters with Weber down draft or side draft carbs some time. I used to have a 240Z with triple webers.
In the dyno room it looks like some old bank robbers getting ready for their last big heist.
What would happen if you put spacers under the carburetors on the cross ram also
Good question.
I want t revisit your "Six Pack shootout" show. You should get a set of Holley carbs with mechanical secondaries. They were made. I had mine set up on bell-crank lnkage for 3/4 throttle before i brought in the out side carbs. No bog...just power
I wonder how that STR 20 would have worked with spacers, starting out with half inch and going up
The victor jr may have been around a long time, but it still out performs and is the best bang for the buck.
Did you even watch the video? It only made more power at redline
Iv alway liked and prefered the cross ram for a street car myself.
Yeah it's kind of hard to go wrong with that
I wonder how the results would change if the cross ram was tested on a 302 like it was designed for? Maybe that absolute top end power would be there?
The cross ram just needs it's cowl induction to reach higher hp.
So instead of it simply being a larger engine makes it's power at a lower RPM with the cross ram, it's more of more intake pulses per second making it work, which needs a smaller engine to have that higher number.
Omg... them all looking like bandits tearing the engine down 😆 🤣
How do you read afr in each cylinder ? O2 senser in each exhast tube ?
Carroll Caudle invented the tunnel Ram!! Come on David
So, what power did the Victor Jr make? What was the difference in power between it and the tunnel ram?
CROSS RAM AND 2 THROTTLE BODIES !!!
Didn't Chevy already do that with the 350 Corvette in 82 and the 305 in 83 or 84 in the Camaro/Firebird????
@@JrGoonior the factory intake had ports half the size of stock ports and the tbi's were small 2bbl
To make my engine tune closer from the beginning, ( Edelbrock crossram), care to divulge the jet sizes on all eight jets. I’m in Albuquerque so I’m just looking for someplace to start.
Can't wait to try my RSR (real street ram) on my L79 65 Acadian Canso CDN (chevy11) Ran a few Eddies w/660's in the 70's worked decent but this should be very streetable so I drive it more
I always wanted to try the Weiand tunnel ram on my 440 mopar but wasn't sure about carb selection. Two 750 double pumpers or two edelbrock 750s ? Or two 600s ?
Would love to know the specs of this engine. Compression, heads, cam and carb size...
The Ford FE Series intake is 110# WITHOUT the carb. They called it fe for a reason.
What was the base HP and torque with the Victor single plane setup?
Simultaneous-opening square carburetors with each runner physically divided from the other runners all the way to carb bottom would afford more control, but discard the benefits of the plenum.
NOS the cross ram!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is the weind ram an isolated Runner that's perfect for single cylinder tuning I had one on a 68 Camaro big block though
Really like the cross ram. Bet the power drops a bunch compared to the tunnel ram when put in the vehicle. Under hood temps will rob it.
But ya won't have to cut the hood and it just looks cooler than a tunnel ram, imo.
I’d love to find a good cross ram for the SBC in my C3 Vette to hide under the stock crossfire air cleaners.. :-).
Or put 454 throttle bodies on your stock cross ram...
Hahaha..you guys rock!
wish i could still watch this in Aus
Come on, we all think about running one of these intakes on our engines with two Motorcraft 2100 2bbl carburetors on it. 😃
Can u run two spacers on the cross ram
So if you want the tunnel effect, but don’t want to cut a hole in your hood, that’s the manifold to get.
GM designed the cross ram for mid to high rpm use on road race cars. And more so the torquless Z28 302 engine.
It is not a street manifold however
now that you have changed jets in the carbys it would be a more even comparison if you used those newly jetted carbs to redo the other manifolds first pulls? also for the baseline, of course.
Thats Cool.
I ve got a much better theory.Those intake manifolds were manufactured to make money for the company.
Uhhh yeah that's the idea of selling a product, to make money...
I run a Mickey Thompson cross ram 383 SBC 11 :1 71 Monte Carlo awesome intake.
I think it may be time to test out the Leaning Tower of Power.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
What size carbs and what cam lift duration CL
Any videos on the fabricated dual quad intakes?
Now y'all should do some runs with a Single Top on the Cross Ram, say like NASCAR HEMI STYLE,and see what that looks like. Lots of Power and Very Efficient.👍👍
I'm working on an old 360 D100 and thinking "Man that looks cool".... Looked up the cross ram and they are right. The cost is reflex-burst-out-laugh ridiculous.
You guys need to do a shoot out with Edelbrocks new VRS carburetor ve Holley 4150! Before someone else does!!
Do WEBERs!
On Indipendant runners! That would be EPIC
i vote crossram...far more usable...the only downside is the hood doesnt have a giant hole in it allowing hot air to leave
Almost 7milliom subscribers 👍
The world needs a cross ram you can see your reflection in
then Chevy "played it again Sam" in the 1980's with their ceasefire CrossFire setup on Vettes and Z28's. I keep findin' 'em for $100 a pop, nearly makes me want to pass up $75 edelbrock single quad intakes with peeling paint.
You guys are a great looking group - when Dulcich’s hair is under control.
I wouldn't want to cut a hole in my hood unless it was a dedicated race car.
I like both but I'll have to take the cross high ram
@TELEGRAM ME MotorTrend_channel cool
Power difference is worth it if I don’t need to cut holes in my hood
when can we watch in australia again?
What about the Offy dual quad low profile manifold?
this i would like to see.
Can you guys test the Thompson performance fuel plates that are supposed to help atomize fuel instead of it trickling in the Venturi they are $50 each
What this means is GM Engineers knew WTF they were doing all them years ago. It is the most power without a dyno to really optimize it.
Good vid
How about the tunnel ram vs. a cross ram multi stack?
I do miss 6 packs, need test them on that motor maybe..... :)