The Shroud of Turin and Sudarium of Oviedo connection
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- Опубликовано: 16 окт 2024
- Most people have heard of the Shroud of Turin but what about the Sudarium of Oviedo? Lecturer Christopher Reibold provides support for the relationship between these two historical relics and new findings on their authenticity.
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Very good overview of the connection between the shroud and the Sudarium…I was particularly impressed by the comment that John seemed to make a point of highlighting the linens, as if he wanted to impress on later followers their importance. It’s also interesting that you get the impression that seeing the linens as they were found, was the main reason that he was convinced that Jesus had risen. Seeing an image of the risen Christ on the shroud would probably have convinced most people!
Melissa Garrett An interesting point. Thank you
Why no mention in the New Testament of the image on the Shroud? What better way to convince skeptics of the risen Christ and win converts in the early Church than to show them the Shroud?
Christ has Risen ! Indeed he has !
@@kevinkingmaker7395 maybe they were not noticed at that time? I've read somewhere that the shroud was folded eight times, and a courier brought the shroud to a king in Tarsus(?).When presented to the king, the king saw on one of the two sides, the facial image of the shroud. - All I can remember now.
Presented very clearly . Great job 🙏🏻
I knew all this, but it's nice to hear it again. I have always felt the Sudarium validates & corroborates the Shroud. They complement each other, but have taken different paths through history for two thousand years. I belive firmly, The Shroud of Turin & the Sudarium of Oviedo are the burial clothes of the Risen Christ! Just as I believe, Jesus is The Way, The Truth & The Life!
The trouble is, the Gospel of John states that the disciples of Jesus found only strips of linen and a face cloth in the empty tomb (John 20: 3-7). Note that the Greek word orthonia for the former is plural. There was NO single, full-body sheet found in the tomb. In 1543, John Calvin, in his book Treatise on Relics, explained why the Shroud cannot be genuine:
"In all the places where they pretend to have the graveclothes, they show a large piece of linen by which the whole body, including the head, was covered, and, accordingly, the figure exhibited is that of an entire body. But the Evangelist John relates that Christ was buried, "as is the manner of the Jews to bury." What that manner was may be learned, not only from the Jews, by whom it is still observed, but also from their books, which explain what the ancient practice was. It was this: The body was wrapped up by itself as far as the shoulders, and then the head by itself was bound round with a napkin, tied by the four corners, into a knot. And this is expressed by the Evangelist, when he says that Peter saw the linen clothes in which the body had been wrapped lying in one place, and the napkin which had been wrapped about the head lying in another. The term napkin may mean either a handkerchief employed to wipe the face, or it may mean a shawl, but never means a large piece of linen in which the whole body may be wrapped. I have, however, used the term in the sense which they improperly give to it. On the whole, either the Evangelist John must have given a false account, or every one of them must be convicted of falsehood, thus making it manifest that they have too impudently imposed on the unlearned."
The very validity of Christian faith is based upon the veracity of the accounts given in the gospels concerning what was found in the tomb of Jesus. Christians HAVE to believe that these accounts are accurate. Therefore , how can they ALSO believe that the Shroud of Turin is the burial shroud of Jesus when the account of the contents of the tomb states unambiguously that there was NO such shroud found there? Either this was because Jesus was never wrapped in a full-length sheet (and certainly NOT in one that covered his head as well as his torso, for this was NOT Jewish custom) or else he left the tomb with this sheet still wrapped around his resurrected body. In this case, how on earth could Mary Magdalen fail to recognise him when she returned the morning after the Sabbath to finish anointing his body, for she had seen how he looked when his body was left in the tomb? It does not make sense unless the risen Jesus had somehow acquired other clothes to cover himself - clothes that she would not have recognised as being his. The whole point of a napkin was that it was supposed to cover the face left UNCOVERED by whatever strips of linen were used to wrap the torso. It is wrong and absurd to suppose that a sheet covered the head as well as this napkin! So how could the face of Jesus appear on a sheet of linen that - even supposing that it was used (none was found in the tomb) - only covered the torso as far as the shoulders? Once again, nothing makes sense here. Whether the Sudarium is the genuine face cloth of Jesus or a fake needs independent investigation. The fact that the image of a face appears on the Turin Shroud AS WELL is evidence that the latter is a fake, whether or not the Sudarium is genuine.
thank you for this. G-D bless the work of the knights
Good presentation. Very straightforward.
Excellent observations. 👏👏👏There is too much evidence to NOT believe!
Dear Christian Uploader, my god, have you any sense of decency?
If everyone is not aware of "the" deity, then it fudges the title a bit, don't you think?
Ci sono troppe prove negative per crederci compresa la datazione al c14 che è diversa di secoli tra i 2 .pensiamoci se Dio va a complicare le cose ,lui è Eterna Saggezza, voi siete piccoli uomini che hanno bisogno di un pezzo di stoffa per credere
There is too much evidence to NOT believe but only if you already believe. The Shroud reinforces already existing faith, but for most without faith, the carbon dating settles the issue (medieval fake).
Besides the shroud,Jesus was witnessed in person by over 500 people. Even if one was to rise from the dead, people will still not believe.
Actually, the Shroud belongs to Jewish rites burial clothes. So, the Sindone was, in first provenance, most likely owned by Joseph of Arimethea. It has no continuing parallel in Christian burial practices, unless with Our Lady. So, in a sense, the Shroud is a Judaic-Christian relic.
Thank you for this summary. I believe the shroud is authentic.
Thank you for the overview.
I truly believe that the shroud is the true burial cloth of Jesus.❤
That's because you have a fully functional brain and you know how to use it! 👍
The shroud is a Christian relic . Belongs to all believers of Christ. I mean all denominations.
Actually, I believe it belongs to the Pope.
It does belong to everyone,
I believe it belongs to Jesus.
Actually it was from Joseph of Aramathia
@@joemueller4738 Mind sharing the reciept?
thx. for the video. Can you clarify if there was any DNA analysis between the 'Shroud of Turin' and the Sudarium? I am aware that the blood test was conducted was found to be AB in both, why was the DNA tests not done?
Both the Shroud of Turin and the Sudarium of Oviedo have been subjected to DNA testing. However, both linens have been touched by hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people over their history, and neither has been conserved in a way that would preserve ancient DNA. The result is a kind of soup of tiny DNA fragments from which limited information has been gleaned. The DNA results show that these linens have been in contact with a lot of people of Middle Eastern ancestry. One surprising finding is that the Shroud has a lot of DNA fragments from people of Indian origin. Just what this means is unclear. Some people think it means that the linen itself was manufactured in India. Others think it means Christian pilgrims from India came to see the shroud - recall that St. Thomas evangelized in India.
@@kofc3084 very interesting. Do we know which part of Indian origin is DNA related to? because St. Thomas is said to have preached in Kerala (S,India) and most likely the linen could have been manufactured in Gujarat. (this is North West India). Both were trading hubs.
PS: the oldest Jewish Synagouge in India is also in Kerala but Jews came there only after the Arab Invasion to the best of my understanding.
Thx. for the reply though.
Mam gk9i9
@@kofc3084Lo stesso San Tommaso a cui Gesù disse " BEATI coloro che crederanno senza aver visto . Leggete i Santi Vangeli ispirati da Dio gente senza FEDE
@@kofc3084 That’s fascinating!
At about 0:53 it sounds like someone in the crowd said "I hate you". Or am I just miss hearing it?
I wonder if the blood can be genetically sequenced and then compared between the Shroud and Sudarium?
As mentioned by @kofc3084 in a reply above, both items have been handled by hundreds if not thousands of people, making the blood a kind of DNA soup that has made it impossible to isolate and identify the DNA of Jesus.
Might I respectfully point out that it can't be categorically stated how the image was produced. But in an interview about the STURP eximination of the Shroud in 1978, Barrie Schwartz, the technical photographer on the team, said that had "proved" that the image was not painted, scorched or printed. I understand the image to have been caused by a degradation of the cellulose in the surface of fibres in the linen threads.
Degradation of that kind can have many causes, including bacterial.
Degradation of that kind can have many causes, including bacterial.
Degradation of that kind can have many causes, including bacterial.
@@michaelsigismonde7958 yeah but a bacterial degradation of the fibers isn't going to only penetrait the surface microfiber of the cloth. It would soak much further in, it would also not print over tip of the bloodstained like the image dies, but merge with them.
Caused by flashes of light similar to an mri
J’aime ce débunkage
A lot of emphasis has been placed on Carbon 14 dating and DNA analyses; however, Carbon 14 (along with other Carbon dating methods) have proven to be highly flawed, as they they don't/cannot take into account 2,000 years of contamination from weathering, any local/general climate changes, human handling &etc - and that's not taking the limitations of the tests themselves, for as has been long-established, C14 itself has a a high element of "shelf-life," which is limited in the years it can go back - the current estimates range from as little as a few hundred years to 1,000 years....not very helpful when looking at an object 2,000 years old!!
It is also known to forensic science that DNA is destroyed by UV Light. The shroud and face cloth have both been subjected to intensive UV tests, and we have little idea of what either of the cloths have endured in that period. We are told that the shroud was subjected to fire and smoke damage, and goodness knows what other detrimental environmental or human damage during that time.
Speculation will continue for many more years, but what it all comes down to is how individuals accept or reject what these objects really are, regardless of the science.
The Catholic Church will believe anything if it has the barest association with the Biblical story, while the Church of England will be divided in opinion. The Musilms would reject it entirely, and the aethiests/evolutionists will simply scoff. The Christian and aethiest scientists will be selective in their findings, choosing whatever evidence suits their individual belief.
Based on the evidences presented, I am prepared to accept that the shroud is one extra element of God's intention to "prove" the Bible account for all peoples.
Either you believe or you don't' it's as simple as that!
Dear Christian Uploader, my god, have you any sense of decency?
If everyone is not aware of "the" deity, then it fudges the title a bit, don't you think?
@@Stupidityindex I "think" and express myself with clarity, but I don't have the faintest clue what you're blethering about! What do you mean with regard to "sense of decency?" Your command of English Grammar is about as clear as mud, i.e. try intelligent language if you want to be understood!
Reg, if one complains about grammar, then one needs to spell correctly.
Additionally, the Catholic Church does not accept relics without due diligence, and if evidence is insufficient, the item is most likely classified as an icon. If you want to explore the Catholic classification technique, I suggest you check the rigorous procedures to identify a person as a saint. May God bless you.
@@fddooley1 Astounding rubbish.
Christians have zero quality-control. The same deity we know from fiction, is the believers servant bought with prayers. Magic does not exist outside of fiction, but believers authorize themselves to weight-in on whatnot as if we all know Earth has gravity-free zones.
@@fddooley1 You are quite right! If you are referring to my spelling of "atheist," it happens when I speed-write in haste. I normally check whatever I've written, but on that occasion I neglected to do so....but at least you understood my point, which is more than could be said about the commenter to whom I was responding!
"Due diligence." You mean trying to prove the unprovable? Lourdes; the Lady of Fatima - both accepted by the Catholic Church at face value; are they examples of due diligence?
"Icons." These would include graven images and likenesses as referenced in Exodus 20:4 (the Ten Commandments); but of course the Catholic Church doesn't use those, does it? Or do statues, crucifixes and pictures of Jesus and the Virgin Mary not count in those categories? What about "believed" pieces of the Cross &etc?
God only gave us ten commandments to follow, and every person who ever lived has broken most of them - including all the popes and priests who call themselves "Father" - totally in opposition to what Jesus said in Matt 23:9 Call no man your father on earth...
On those points alone, it would seem to me that diligence is more a Will of the Wisp than an actuality. While it is wrong of me as a Christian to disparage the Catholic Church, its doctrines and dogma, Christianity is based on Faith and Belief without reliance on "church-classified" figments of imagination, relics, icons or anything other than Biblical Accounts. I only have to look at the wonders of nature in this world to see and know that God is a living god who gave us an earthly life and the hope in His son of a better life to come - but only for those who believe in, and follow His teachings to the best of our ability. The rest we should not need - nor should we bow down to them!
So your position is that the revered relic, The Veil of Manoppello, is a fake? Or do you believe there were two face cloths used on Jesus as he was taken to the tomb that produced radically different images and that contradict the Gospel accounts of a single face covering?
John was not trying to establish the provenance as you have assumed. According to biblical scholars the cloth Sudarium of Oviedo, that covered his head would indeed be buried with him. Jewish traditions state that any piece of garment that has the blood of the dead person would be buried along with him.
I have been a student of the SHROUD of TURIN and the SUDARIUM of OVIEDO, and the SHROUD is the burial cloth of JESUS that recorded the RESSURECTION of JESUS CHRIST 2000 years ago!!
If you are a skeptic, it's time to believe because like doubting THOMAS, this allows you to physically touch the PASSION and the RESSURECTION of JESUS CHRIST!!
I completed my PhD Physics coursework at Purdue University and the SHROUD wasn't made by human hands!! In order to match the depth profiles of the image on the SHROUD, you need a particle accelerator or a DEEP UV light source like they use to burn patterns onto computer chips and smart phone chips!! Obvious these technologies were not available in 1st Century Jerusalem!!
Everyone, please remember, the linen shroud is the burial shroud of the crucified Christ, the shroud just happened to be stored in Turin!
I believe that the image of Christ was imposed on the shroud from the inside out.
Forget what people say. We have go by what the Bible and the Biblical Greek says.
Matthew
"Winding sheets" plural, in the Biblical Greek.
Mark just says "Fine linen".
Luke says,
"Linen cloths", plural.
And in three different chapters, John says,
" Strips of linen cloths and a separate head cover".
Not one of the gospels say Jesus was covered with a shroud.
So why do people say He was??.
Because he was and we found the shroud in the tomb and kept it ever since.
@@bridgefin anyone who knows the Bible will know that the image on the shroud of Turin isn't Jesus.
@@alanhales1123
The people who were closest to the Bible believe that the shroud is exactly what it has been represented to be....the actual shroud in which Jesus was wrapped and placed into the tomb. Scripture supports and science is amazed by it.
@bridgefin Mathew Mark Luke and John all know that Jesus wasn't covered in a shroud.
Matthew says.
Winding sheets plural.
Mark says.
Fine Linen.
Luke says.
Linen cloths plural.
In three different chapters, John says.
Strips of linen cloths and a separate head cover.
Not one of them mention a shroud.
Only false teachers say Jesus was covered with a shroud.
@@alanhales1123
John 19:40
ESV So they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews.
NIV Taking Jesus' body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs.
NASB So they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen wrappings with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews.
CSB They took Jesus's body and wrapped it in linen cloths with the fragrant spices, according to the burial custom of the Jews.
NLT Following Jewish burial custom, they wrapped Jesus' body with the spices in long sheets of linen cloth.
KJV Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
Linen cloths, strips of linen, linen wrappings, linen cloths, long sheets of linen cloth, linen clothes
All from six Protestant translations.
Original Greek
Strong's Concordance
othonion: a piece of fine linen
Original Word: ὀθόνιον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: othonion
Phonetic Spelling: (oth-on'-ee-on)
Definition: a piece of fine linen
Usage: a linen bandage, a wrapping.
Looks like all we know is that Jesus was wrapped in linen according to the custom of the day. Feel free to try to explain how they were going to contain 75 pounds of spices in mere strips. BTW we have both the shroud and the head cover. What do you have?
23rd Grand Master of the Knights Templar Jacques de Molay
Apparently a group of New Zealand Scientists have examined the length of the fingers and reckon they are too long and straight. Should be more curled up in the position aligned with the body
I've noted the hands and fingers conveniently cover up all of private parts.
Why wouldn’t you do that ?
NOT " scorched."
The church had nothing to approve the examination of the Shroud. It was owned by King Umberto of Italy. When he died in 1983 he left it to the present Pope John Paul.
why doesn`t trinity appears in bible...,,.
@@lufhopespeacefully2037 Good sir or madam, because it is a false teaching; think a God Head with each individual person of God the Father, His only begotten Son, and Holy Spirit.
Genesis 1:26
New King James Version
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over [a]all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
@@deborahw0 . how often does bible been revised
@@lufhopespeacefully2037 Too often! How come there are over 50,000 Christian denominations in the world? Thanks for your response!
@@deborahw0 u are welcome,u`ve admitted that bible is man made debora
I believe the Shroud of Turin is the Holy mandilian and I believe the sudarium of oviedo
1 Corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a
man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
When it comes to the passage from I Cor. 11:14-15, one must remember that it was written at least 20 years after the death of Jesus. Closer study will reveal that it is simply Paul's personal opinion and certainly not a regulation which would have applied to Jesus during his lifetime.
Theth
A burial cloth of unknown origin to mystify the deeply religious. But sadly the real Jesus continues to play hide and seek.
Keep looking east ! ✔️
He will show himself one day and you might not like it
The Turin Shroud was radio-carbon testing dated the shroud to a date of 1260-1390 AD, (congruent to the time of it's first appearance). with 95% confidence. The Sudarium was carbon dated to about the 700's (congruent also). Period. The end
Repairs were made to the shroud (TS) in 1694 by Sebastian Valfrè to improve the repairs of the Poor Clare nuns. Further repairs were made in 1868 by Clotilde of Savoy. But the Carbon date didn't match to those repairs
Human blood contains potassium. There's no potassium on the TS. So IDK where they get the blood type from
@@me-ds2il you do realize the carbon date given I an average of 3 different dates the three different labs concluded right? It's not a conclusive pice of evidence. Especially since everything else suggests it's older.
@@anthonypolonkay2681 I prefer not to discuss with ignorant fools
The unweighted mean was "691 ±31 years", which corresponds to calibrated ages of "1273-1288 AD" with 68% confidence, and "1262-1312, 1353-1384 AD cal" with 95% confidence.
The quoted final results produced a calibrated calendar age range of AD 1260-1390 for the linen of the Turin shroud at a 95% confidence level. Which closely corresponds to it's first appearance (c. 1354)
@@me-ds2il the shroud of turins first appearance was not in the 1300s. Thats just the farthest back we can place proper ownership/placement of it, but it definatly had appearances far before that. We even Have secondary cooperative evidence of it in paintings dating back to the 600s. AD.
Besides that what measures did the labs who performed the carbon dating take to calibrate against the French invisible weave repair which was a part of the sampled corner?
Because as I understand the history of the sturp investigation, the French invisible weave section was only verified after the carbon dating was performed, and they have done no such attempts to relate with more varied samples.
Or do you even know what I am referencing here?
Beyond that radiometric dating of any kind does not provide accurate exact dating of any kind. Everything from C14. All the way to lead lead lacks the ability to coberate known age samples of any tested material.
The best example of that to date is c14 testing on dead trees of known ages, but even on the best of days the vast majority of the readings come back orders of magnitude to exaggerated. And methods like potassium argon, or rubidium strontium for silica dating have never accurately recapitulated known age samples. This means one has no way to calibrate for exact dating when using radiometric isotopic ratios. Which means even for carbon 14 you cannot accurately Guage a the date for a sample if it is within 5000 years or so.
Wound in the side of Jesus by the spear wasn't in the chest but lower on the right side of by his belly so it's a fake
If I remember right, they narrowed it down to the 3 rd or 4th rib down. Why do you conclude that it is a fake from that? Is it because that would be anatomically wrong or contrary to gospel accounts?
@@jamesmaybury7452 dear James I did have a experience of stigmata the spear was thrust into his right below the rib cage I have only just opened up on my experience the world must know the truth
@@alancook4407 I have heard of stigmata on peoples hands or wrists, are you writing here because you experienced something on your side?
@@jamesmaybury7452 hello again yes on my right side below the rib cage also i had throbbing from my two wrists were to me the nails were put to me it all rests on authenticity were the spear was thrust i am just a ordinary person who loves Jesus and a scripture stands out I have been crucified with Christ Jesus apologize for preaching to you nice sharing my experience with you I also believe more experiences will be shown if we genuinely seek the whole truth our teacher the holy spirit hope you to or maybe you have had a encounter that as made a big impact on you
@@jamesmaybury7452 morning James I actually felt the spear prodding me twice the most pain i felt was from my head were the crown of thorns pierced Jesus Christ head my head was throbbing it's been 30years since i had this happen to me and i feeilike it happened today and ihav only opened up i have a strong compulsion to say the shroud is not authentic to the world