I've always thought of the HAG the same way I think of the snub-nosed PPC. Its primary selling point is the huge short range for outboxing other brawlers. And unlike the Snubby, the HAG gets a really good Medium Range for reaching out to punch on your way in. I mostly just don't consider firing them at long range because of how bad long-range shots are (especially since my local group tends to prefer avoiding gunnery improvements). They also get a huge extra edge in campaigns with SPAs since there are a lot more SPAs that benefit direct-fire weapons, but that's a lot more niche.
@@clockworkseal2135 which SPAs we talkin? I think there's just as many for LRMs. More in fact. Oblique attacker is straight up OP BS. I do agree tho. I think the HAG is meant to be a really punchy brawling weapon. I think LRMs might just do the job better on the Clan side tho.
@@TheManyVoicesVA The big one is sniper, since I really like those 16 medium range bands with HAGs and sticking them next to ERPPCs to control a big chunk of the field ahead of the accuracy curve. Most of the other SPAs actually overlap because they're both cluster weapons. (sandblaster, cluster hitter, et cetera) It can also benefit from a TC, but that's not really an SPA and at that point you're putting a ton of weight into mid-range shooting.
@clockworkseal2135 it's pretty long range shooting tbh lol. I have played some pretty funny rangemaster builds in campaign. Rangemaster: Extreme on gauss copters was one of the funniest things ever. They just stood still at like 20 hexes and blasted.
It would be interesting to go into the BV calculation for bigger HAG weapons to see exactly why they're so expensive. Range is one of the biggest things that makes a weapon more expensive, and the HAG 30 and 40 have by far the best range of any single weapon that can do 20+ damage a shot. Bigger HAG weapons certainly look wildly overcosted, but it's actually not that terrible when you factor in the +2 cluster at short range compared to extra weight and cost of upgrading a 30 or 40 LRMs with Streak or Artemis. As far as official HAG mechs go, my favorite that I've seen on the table so far is the Battlemaster C. With a HAG 30 and 6 clan medium lasers all tied to a targeting computer, plus an ATM 6, it's a brutal close/mid range brawler that has enough speed to get to that 8 hex ideal distance without too much trouble. At around 3k BV, it isn't cheap, but actually does pretty well in cost compared to a lot of other HAG assault mechs which climb well over 3k BV if they have multiple HAG 30 or 40.
@@nachoneitzscheese shoulda jusy taken a 20 and some more lasers or ATMs haha. Ya it's hard to compare artemis because like... ya the Artemis is better since it works at all ranges, but it's countered by ECM and the HAG only gets the bonus at short...
@@TheManyVoicesVA When adding averages to LRMs with basic Artemis IV FCS just add about two missiles for the base LRM launcher. The LRM-5 is the only launcher that does not improve from Artemis IV FCS. If I remember correctly the baseline stats for LRM’s from lesser to greater is 3, 6, 8, and12. So that would be with basic Artemis 3, 8, 12, and 16. Note how the most responsive to Artemis are the larger LRM packs. For the Artemis V FCS I am clueless.
@@Magermh i know how it works lol. It's a 20% damage increase and BV increase. But it doesnt work on IDF or vs ECM. And clans dont have many good counter-ECM units. I usually prefer just more missiles rather than taking Art IV. Art V is really pricey but the -1 TH is really powerful, so Im more willing to mess with counter ECM units to make use of it.
HAG's are Expensive in BV and can't do indirect fire or use specialized munitions. Plus they sandpaper their damage. No thanks. Give me a regular Gauss Rifle any day.
You have a point. however.a dire wolf with dual hag 40S makes for one of the absolute best potential distractions you can have. its prohibitively expensive but your enemy cant ignore it. Its amazing for objective play in my experience because you have to basically sic an entire lance on the dire wolf to kill it
@@jasonames145 LRMs can get Artemis V, which acts like a targeting computer. U also have artemis IV for cluster bonus, and Narc is pretty good for cluster as well. Improved Narc is badass but hard to pull off. I have played an iNarc list, it's... not good imo. It's too dependant on landing the iNarc pod.
@@TheManyVoicesVA Yeah, NARC is like TAG - you really need A LOT of NARC/i-NARC launchers on the field to get any reasonable use out of it. Especially if you're running bog-standard 4/5 or 3/4 pilots. 3 Base +1 for walking +2 for target TMM +2 for Medium range ... that's 8+ to hit, and that's if there's no trees between you, or other penalties (heat, Magpulse/taser weapons, etc).
@argokarrus2731 these are good points, same with the HAG cluster bonus. This is one of the reasons to take it over LRMs with artemis. It's cheaper than artemis LRMs and can be linked(at great cost, mind you) to a TC.
Looks like I wasn't the only one thinking about this. I was discussing the Bane/Kraken when this came up. The Bane 7 is one of the most BV expensive units in the game because the HAG40 is the most expensive weapon in the game. The question was is it better than the Bane 3 (no). One 800 BV cheaper and gives 120 LRMs per round for 16 salvos. The other gives 80 HAG rounds for 18 salvos with laser back up. The HAG systems definitely outclass IS LRM systems but fall behind Clan LRM systems slightly once you consider additional heat, explosive ammo, and Artemis systems.
@@jamesc.7216 i think only HAG 20s are worth it because the ammo is so ridiculously expensive for larger launchers. The explosive weapon which is *massive* is also a problem. It is just so likely to grt crit.
@@TheManyVoicesVA The HAG20 is a reverse LRM20. HAG systems are a weird mix. Their not actively bad just too expensive BV wise. They are like mixing an UAC20 with an LRM and making the gun explosive. I'm mostly past the min-maxing part of my life so some boom is okay as long as we get some good stories out of it.
@@jamesc.7216 ya it's fine. I think Id rather just have a RAC though tbh. It's shorter range but doesnt cost as much BV. (Although, jamming is pretty bad lol.)
If you want to deal with flying things, take the SBGR. Not a lot of options for it, but there's the lovely Rifleman RFL-7G, and a couple Marauders that are nice. The Challenger XV has one SBGR and one GR, it's a nice but kinda costly tank. SBGRs get the -1 natural, -1 for flying, and the Rifleman has the AA Quark(never play with quarks tho), for a total of -3 IIRC. Add in the Gauss range profile and it's just so good a sweeping the skies.
The AA comparison is valuable, it'd be an interesting video to look at how different builds and 'Mechs with built-in secondary AA ability (like the Orion or Lancelot) compare to 'dedicated' AA platforms like the Rifleman and Jaegermech.
I know this video covers mostly the Mech side of things but i wanted to share how it works in aerotech where HAG's get the full range brackets that AT gives and a -3 to hit all air targets (-1 to hit, -2 flak bonus) in a game where there is not much you can do to get lower numbers makes it a pretty scary weapon.
@@TheManyVoicesVA LBX also gets the -1 to hit on clusters, and both the LBX and HAG gets the -2 flak bonus for both having a total of -3 against aircraft. Though not all the LBX's have the full long (or medium) range in Aerotech while the HAG's always get the full range spectrum in AT which makes the HAG's scary from how I read it.
Good video on a comparison of HAG’s to LRM’s. When you’re saying that the larger HAG’s are not BV efficient. I would take two HAG 40’s and up the gunnery skills on my pilots. As the 4 gunnery is responsive with more guns the 2 or 3 gunnery would is greatly more responsive with fewer guns. Agreed the -4 to hit flack bonus is always a good reason to love a HAG. For in the case of the Cygnus in version 2 and 3. The Cygnus 2 would be exceptional with 3 gunners at 4,437 BV or a better marksmen and the Cygnus 3 would be a little under effective with a 4 or 3 gunnery for 2826 or 3391 BV. I like the larger guns as I consider them ammo economical. Also, the HAG 40 is one of the few weapons that may brute force Ferro-Lamellor or Ballistic Reinforced armor. I like the Cygnus 2 because I may armor strip a Kodiak or go crit fishing.
Also the niche case of having a skilled pilot using one as it does proportionally improve the MRM's better than some other weapons. But depending what rules and BV totals you are using that isn't so accessible
For the most part, with the way my play group builds lists and actually plays, i tend to think of it like cluster rounds for the LBX ac's. Basically just don't even use it until theres some holes punched to crit seek. And that's specifically because almost everybody i play against tends to build lists for survivability unless its a structured objective style game of some sort. HAG's are still powerful mind, but i personally prefer to punch holes, not sandpaper armored targets.
@@gryphon3241 they deal alot of damage. You can hole punch with a LPL then follow up.with like 15 damage, force a PSR and maybe get a crit. I do prefer LBXs because you can use a slug round on fresh mechs, or cluster on damaged ones. Especially because the LBX cluster gets -1 TH, that is super good.
Id have to counter argue somewhat with the 2x 20s versus the Hag 40. Yes more likely to get SOME damage, but having to roll 2 hits versus just 1 hit, and since they are cluster weapons 2 cluster rolls versus 1 cluster roll, your average is that your going to have fewer hits with the 2 20s versus the HAG, because you have fewer points of failure, fewer rolls. Yes when you miss with the 40 thats a BIG Miss but the average of 1 is .5 rounded up to 1, where as the average of 2 is 1 so youll miss with one of the 20s most of the time.
@@memnarch129 some damage>no damage my guy. The average damage is higher with 2 20s assuming the same TH. The HAG does more once in range 8, or at range 15-16. But having more weapons will *always* be more average damage. Especially with higher TNs. If you need 10s to hit you have a much better chance to connect with 2 launchers. Even on 7s you still want 2 launchers since 2 chances at 60%~ is much greater than a single chance.
That's just like breaking up LRM-20's into 5 packs. Sure it's usually 3 damage, but hitting with 2x3 point clusters is better than missing with a LRM-20
I just like HAG's because rule of cool and a few games where I strapped a 30 to a hellfire and cleaned light mechs out. That being said, you really want to run a targeting comp. leading to a skyrocket of BV. Fun to use, but expensive.
@@135forte ya CASE II is so worth it on anything with ammo... like ok yes they can only go off once, but for clan mechs your torso is almost certainly dead after even 20 damage. If the LRMs go off, it will definitely kill your torso but... they are less likely to get crit.
@TheManyVoicesVA Clan mechs wouldn't use the torso if they can help it and you are still salvageable missing just a side. No CASEless mech is salvageable after a ton of LRM ammo goes off, especially if it cascades into one of the other tons.
@TheManyVoicesVA We live in a time where about the only Clan tech that is exclusive to the Clans is structure, so IS mechs need to be taken into account as well. 600pts of exploding ammo is a lot, and you probably haven't crammed them all into one location.
@@135forte agreed, CASE II on IS is heavier but still very worth it. If you have an IS XL... CASE wont save you, so I only really care about CASE II in IS XLs... one of the reasons I dont like IS XLs. IS Light engines are pretty solid tho.
IIRC catalyst did a BV rework after they picked up the IP. That's why it is called BV2. And yes, we probably need a BV3 update. A couple weapons need adjusted badly, as does some of the movement options. Overall BV2 seems pretty decent actually.
My impression, having never tested them, is that there's no great reason to use one over a PPC (or lrm) and they are also silly clanner stuff. Silver Bullet Gauss is a different story tho... Let's see if your video changes my mind on them 😊
@@ObiwanNekody i think SBGR is better. It is a disgusting crit seeker and is insane at causing PSRs on ASFs and killing VTOL rotors. I played a mech with a gauss and SBGR in a tourny and it was fun.
I like the HAG-40 because big boomstick make brain do the happy tingle. I have a Dark Age campaign in MegaMek where I put a HAG-30 on a Victor 12D in place of the usual gauss rifle. Combined with the 12D's targeting computer and three tons of ammo, that thing is an absolute monster; terrifying damage up close like the classic Succession Wars Victor, but with the ability to still reach out and touch somebody at decent range if it needs to like the later models can.
@@matthewmarek1467 yes true. It's an optional rule though. Also, the HAG is so expensive that if you arent firing it every turn... you are really gonna miss it.
Ok here you go again with your 'numbers', 'charts', 'data', and 'facts' ... you are once again correct, however I will again make my counter arguments of: RULE OF COOL! and Bigger is better! Keep this killer analytical content coming. My gut always said the HAG20 was good, good to see that validated.
@@EdmondHiggins hehehe thanks. I will say the HAG 40 is alright in terms of campaign play. The ammo just costs like a zillion BV for some reason. It's cool and not as heavy and bulky.
@@Shredneck92 i prefer LBX by a mile. They are ridiculously good crit seekers. This makes them amazing against VTOLs and ASFs, as well as the kings of immobilizing vehicles. And pf course, once you open up a mech with a 10 damage punch, the pellets just kill components like crazy. Lbx10 is just ridiculously good overall. Probably less of a "HAG are bad" than "LBX are incredible" thing going on I guess. Other LBX are ok as well. The 5 is a good sniper weapon that is versatile and the 20 just *hurts* up close.
@TheManyVoicesVA The ability to shoot slugs out of an LBX to break the armor open and then follow up with a cluster round makes it's better than the HAG. Maybe the clans should have made an HVLBX (HVAC but LBX)
Hag 40 is definitely very powerful in casual games. That being said i havent seen it used much in more competitive game's. Theres also very few competitive games set in the current era
@@TheManyVoicesVA You said it in the video too, but I'm not sure how you figure it's higher average damage. If your hit chance is X, then 40 * X is always going to be the exact same as 20 * X + 20 * X.
@Cman21921 because you have 2 chances to hit. Let's say you need 8s. I have 2 chances to roll an 8, instead of 1. So *some* damage might get through. It becomes less true the lower your TH number is. Even on 7s you have like a 60~% chance to hit. So you want 2 chances to get that 60%, not 1.
@@TheManyVoicesVA I agree that there is a much better chance to not get 0 damage, but there's also a much worse chance to get 40. The average is exactly the same. Maybe you just don't mean average?
@@Cman21921over the course of the game the average is significantly higher with 2. You're not necessary hitting 40 every time but you're much more protected from rolling low.
@@jeffersonian000 for BV and weight, yes. But they take up 1 extra crit slot and generate 1 more heat per tube than 15s. It's a little more efficient to run 15s en masse than 5s. U need too many heat sinks that running 5s isnt possible because they take so much crit space.
@@TheManyVoicesVA Clan LRM15 is 3.5 tons, 2 Crit, 5 Heat. Clan LRM5 is 1 ton, 1 Crit, 2 Heat. You take 2x LRM15s, I take 6x LRM5s. Same throw weight (30 missiles). You generate 10 heat, I generate 12 heat. We both lose one launcher. You now have 15 tubes, and I have 25 tubes. We both lose a second launcher. You now have 0 tubes, and I have 20. Now, let’s say you took 2x LRM20s, and for the same weight, I take 10x LRM5s. You have 40 tubes while I have 50 tubes. We both lose a launcher. You now have 20 tubes, and I have 45. See my point?
@@jeffersonian000 we're not talking about 30 LRMs. We're talking about 70+ friend. Go make a custom mech with 75 LRMs worth of LRM 5s and tell me how the critical space and heat managment work out for you. 3xLRM5 require an extra DHS(2 crits) and 1 extra critical slot. That's 3 crit slots extra per 15 missiles. You simply cannot fit them. If we're talking like 30 or 40 LRMs, spamming 5s is probably fine tho. It will take a little longer at the table tho which is a problem.
@@TheManyVoicesVA I think you got my point, then moved the goal post so you can appear to have missed the point. 6 clan LRM5’s are 1 ton lighter than 2 clan LRM15’s, which means an extra clan DHS already has a spot, and you don’t have to fire all 6 every time so heat isn’t an issue. Also, name the mech with 70 LRM tubes, and I will demonstrate how switching out to 5’s will drastically increase survivability. Personally, I like to drop an IS LRM10 for 3x LRM5’s to increase survivability while also increasing damage at a negligible cost, specifically on DRG-1G Dragons, which already have the extra Heat Sink. The goal isn’t to built a 100ton Yeoman, it’s to turn your crit spaces into hit points.
@@jeffersonian000 No in this instance specifically(for this video) I was trying to cram as many tubes in as possible. I ended up needing a crapton of heat sinks since they were so hot, although I was cooling a LPL as well which is a bit hotter for its tonnage...
The ammo comparison at the end was a little... unfair. Yes, the HAG has 2.4x the chance of being crit (assuming all are even), but the LRM ammo bin when hit is 120 damage, 6 times more internal damage, and that is for only 1 bin, so depending on where you put the other bins, after the explosion, you still have other bombs in your mech. Even without CASE, the HAG crit stinks because you lose the weapon, but your mech is likely alive. A LRM ammo bin hit kills your mech. Even with CASE, the chance that multiple Bins being hit turns your pilot into a vegetable, with is still a dead mech.
@@TrailblazerBT for real. I hope they implement it at some point. Things that need work include MASC and Superchargers being a little overcosted, some weapon systems being crazy expensive(especially large weapons with big ammo cost and low ammo per ton) and probably increasing the cost of pulse lasers a bit, as well as maybe making 7+jump slightly more expensive as well.
@TheManyVoicesVA And reduce the cost of long range weapons a bit I think, and find a way to not have Griffin style ranged jumpers be so overcosted. Also reduce the cost of gunnery skill and probably up the cost of TCs especially combined with PLs
I distinctly remember making an "Urbie Horde" roster and discovering an UrbanMech with a HAG on it, getting really excited because I'd heard they were the new hottest toy in-universe, then getting really disappointed when I discovered it was just an LB-Gauss Rifle instead of an instant-mech-deletion button
@@gregkun1 sadly it is the only real balancing score system we have. Cbills and tonnage dont work. Tonnage especially is just pointless outside of introtech. Even there it's flawed. The Charger goes from being a decent cheap distraction unit to a useless 80 ton lump.
@@TheManyVoicesVA 6 hex (180m) shorter than an LRM. 9 (270m) shorter than a HAG 40, yes, because Clanners get better shit always and forever. Of course the MRM gets twice the ammo, is 4 tons less, and 3 crits smaller, though does generate 4 more heat than a HAG40. Also eats a +1 to hit, but there's ways to offset that. Still can't compete with Clan LRM20s because they're basically the 2nd best weapon in the game behind the IS Medium Laser, but we have to ignore that to have any kind of useful discussion because the BT community would act like the Federated Commonwealth and rips itself apart if you ever suggested trying to rebalance the tech to have it make anything that resembles sense.
@@TheManyVoicesVA Nope. Measured in terms of heat to damage to tonnage to crits, nothing comes close to the IS Medium Laser, except the Clan ER Mediums, but they have a less favorable heat-damage ratio unless you have the space for infinite DHS.
I've always thought of the HAG the same way I think of the snub-nosed PPC. Its primary selling point is the huge short range for outboxing other brawlers. And unlike the Snubby, the HAG gets a really good Medium Range for reaching out to punch on your way in. I mostly just don't consider firing them at long range because of how bad long-range shots are (especially since my local group tends to prefer avoiding gunnery improvements). They also get a huge extra edge in campaigns with SPAs since there are a lot more SPAs that benefit direct-fire weapons, but that's a lot more niche.
@@clockworkseal2135 which SPAs we talkin? I think there's just as many for LRMs. More in fact. Oblique attacker is straight up OP BS.
I do agree tho. I think the HAG is meant to be a really punchy brawling weapon. I think LRMs might just do the job better on the Clan side tho.
@@TheManyVoicesVA The big one is sniper, since I really like those 16 medium range bands with HAGs and sticking them next to ERPPCs to control a big chunk of the field ahead of the accuracy curve. Most of the other SPAs actually overlap because they're both cluster weapons. (sandblaster, cluster hitter, et cetera)
It can also benefit from a TC, but that's not really an SPA and at that point you're putting a ton of weight into mid-range shooting.
@clockworkseal2135 it's pretty long range shooting tbh lol. I have played some pretty funny rangemaster builds in campaign. Rangemaster: Extreme on gauss copters was one of the funniest things ever. They just stood still at like 20 hexes and blasted.
It would be interesting to go into the BV calculation for bigger HAG weapons to see exactly why they're so expensive. Range is one of the biggest things that makes a weapon more expensive, and the HAG 30 and 40 have by far the best range of any single weapon that can do 20+ damage a shot. Bigger HAG weapons certainly look wildly overcosted, but it's actually not that terrible when you factor in the +2 cluster at short range compared to extra weight and cost of upgrading a 30 or 40 LRMs with Streak or Artemis.
As far as official HAG mechs go, my favorite that I've seen on the table so far is the Battlemaster C. With a HAG 30 and 6 clan medium lasers all tied to a targeting computer, plus an ATM 6, it's a brutal close/mid range brawler that has enough speed to get to that 8 hex ideal distance without too much trouble. At around 3k BV, it isn't cheap, but actually does pretty well in cost compared to a lot of other HAG assault mechs which climb well over 3k BV if they have multiple HAG 30 or 40.
@@nachoneitzscheese shoulda jusy taken a 20 and some more lasers or ATMs haha.
Ya it's hard to compare artemis because like... ya the Artemis is better since it works at all ranges, but it's countered by ECM and the HAG only gets the bonus at short...
@@TheManyVoicesVA When adding averages to LRMs with basic Artemis IV FCS just add about two missiles for the base LRM launcher. The LRM-5 is the only launcher that does not improve from Artemis IV FCS. If I remember correctly the baseline stats for LRM’s from lesser to greater is 3, 6, 8, and12. So that would be with basic Artemis 3, 8, 12, and 16. Note how the most responsive to Artemis are the larger LRM packs. For the Artemis V FCS I am clueless.
@@Magermh i know how it works lol. It's a 20% damage increase and BV increase. But it doesnt work on IDF or vs ECM. And clans dont have many good counter-ECM units. I usually prefer just more missiles rather than taking Art IV. Art V is really pricey but the -1 TH is really powerful, so Im more willing to mess with counter ECM units to make use of it.
HAG's are Expensive in BV and can't do indirect fire or use specialized munitions. Plus they sandpaper their damage. No thanks. Give me a regular Gauss Rifle any day.
@MrDmitriRavenoff i do love me a gauss rifle. Big slug to open up armor. HAG+Gauss with an ERLL make a great combo actually.
One thing about the higher tier HAGs, I think they're both stronger and therefore pay BV for being more likely to cause a PSR by themselves
@@Andrewlik that is a good point actually. Causing 20 damage is good. It's really just that the ammo costs a ridiculous amount.
That's worth something, but not hundreds of BV
@@TrailblazerBT hard agree.
Appreciate the analysis using actual statistics. Thanks!
@@Frank-py3hk you're welcome! Thanks for watching
You have a point. however.a dire wolf with dual hag 40S makes for one of the absolute best potential distractions you can have. its prohibitively expensive but your enemy cant ignore it. Its amazing for objective play in my experience because you have to basically sic an entire lance on the dire wolf to kill it
@@enclave9497 id rather have the good old LPL+Gauss dire wolf instead. It's much more threatening imo.
@@TheManyVoicesVA absolutely fair! I just very much enjoy HAGs especially with my groups recent move to citytech
another benefit for hags, they benefit from the targeting computer. but lrms benefit from narc launchers.
@@jasonames145 LRMs can get Artemis V, which acts like a targeting computer. U also have artemis IV for cluster bonus, and Narc is pretty good for cluster as well. Improved Narc is badass but hard to pull off. I have played an iNarc list, it's... not good imo. It's too dependant on landing the iNarc pod.
@@TheManyVoicesVA Yeah, NARC is like TAG - you really need A LOT of NARC/i-NARC launchers on the field to get any reasonable use out of it. Especially if you're running bog-standard 4/5 or 3/4 pilots. 3 Base +1 for walking +2 for target TMM +2 for Medium range ... that's 8+ to hit, and that's if there's no trees between you, or other penalties (heat, Magpulse/taser weapons, etc).
@ericfeatherstone776 ya and at that point it's like... "I could just take more missiles."
@@TheManyVoicesVA Art V can be degraded by any Angel carrier. Same with NARC afaik. TarComp can't be degraded by ECM
@argokarrus2731 these are good points, same with the HAG cluster bonus. This is one of the reasons to take it over LRMs with artemis. It's cheaper than artemis LRMs and can be linked(at great cost, mind you) to a TC.
It's not common on offical maps to have open lines of fire to 16 hexes tho, especially if your opponents aren't cooperative with it.
@@ObiwanNekody ya that is true. That's why LRMs are probably better. They can fight at range 9-14 just as well and can also IDF.
Looks like I wasn't the only one thinking about this.
I was discussing the Bane/Kraken when this came up. The Bane 7 is one of the most BV expensive units in the game because the HAG40 is the most expensive weapon in the game. The question was is it better than the Bane 3 (no). One 800 BV cheaper and gives 120 LRMs per round for 16 salvos. The other gives 80 HAG rounds for 18 salvos with laser back up.
The HAG systems definitely outclass IS LRM systems but fall behind Clan LRM systems slightly once you consider additional heat, explosive ammo, and Artemis systems.
@@jamesc.7216 i think only HAG 20s are worth it because the ammo is so ridiculously expensive for larger launchers. The explosive weapon which is *massive* is also a problem. It is just so likely to grt crit.
@@TheManyVoicesVA The HAG20 is a reverse LRM20.
HAG systems are a weird mix. Their not actively bad just too expensive BV wise. They are like mixing an UAC20 with an LRM and making the gun explosive.
I'm mostly past the min-maxing part of my life so some boom is okay as long as we get some good stories out of it.
@@jamesc.7216 ya it's fine. I think Id rather just have a RAC though tbh. It's shorter range but doesnt cost as much BV. (Although, jamming is pretty bad lol.)
@@TheManyVoicesVA Clan RAC5 shoot out to 21 hexes. I would why there isn't a Bane/Kraken with 4 RAC5s?
@@jamesc.7216 There should be! (It totally wouldn't overheat I swear)
If you want to deal with flying things, take the SBGR. Not a lot of options for it, but there's the lovely Rifleman RFL-7G, and a couple Marauders that are nice. The Challenger XV has one SBGR and one GR, it's a nice but kinda costly tank.
SBGRs get the -1 natural, -1 for flying, and the Rifleman has the AA Quark(never play with quarks tho), for a total of -3 IIRC.
Add in the Gauss range profile and it's just so good a sweeping the skies.
@@ObiwanNekody ya theres also a pretty good Rifleman with twin LBX10s. It shreds planes.
The AA comparison is valuable, it'd be an interesting video to look at how different builds and 'Mechs with built-in secondary AA ability (like the Orion or Lancelot) compare to 'dedicated' AA platforms like the Rifleman and Jaegermech.
And dont forget the hatchetman!
@@Funkin_Disher oh ya! The hatchetman is fun like that. There is a LBX10 hatchetman I think right? So good at shooting down planes haha
@TheManyVoicesVA dont forget the Anti-Air quirk! Hilariously it also applies against any unlucky WIGEs or VTOLs you end up in axing range of.
Embrace the Rifleman RFL-7G, keep the skies clear of bogies.
Yeah that one never made much sense to me. @Funkin_Disher
Direwolf D with twin hag 40's does work. The cluster is so high, doing between 16-40 each is painful, and the 10 tons ammo, is crazy!
I use it pretty frequently to great success. Especially if you're bringing a custom to larger point game. A hag 30 or 40 can be game changing.
@@silmarillion1780 sure, but so could 2 20s, or like... 80 LRMs.
I know this video covers mostly the Mech side of things but i wanted to share how it works in aerotech where HAG's get the full range brackets that AT gives and a -3 to hit all air targets (-1 to hit, -2 flak bonus) in a game where there is not much you can do to get lower numbers makes it a pretty scary weapon.
@@R4V3-0N HAG flyers are probably pretty scary ya... does LBX not get that?
@@TheManyVoicesVA LBX also gets the -1 to hit on clusters, and both the LBX and HAG gets the -2 flak bonus for both having a total of -3 against aircraft. Though not all the LBX's have the full long (or medium) range in Aerotech while the HAG's always get the full range spectrum in AT which makes the HAG's scary from how I read it.
@R4V3-0N it is good vs ASFs for sure.
Good video on a comparison of HAG’s to LRM’s. When you’re saying that the larger HAG’s are not BV efficient. I would take two HAG 40’s and up the gunnery skills on my pilots. As the 4 gunnery is responsive with more guns the 2 or 3 gunnery would is greatly more responsive with fewer guns. Agreed the -4 to hit flack bonus is always a good reason to love a HAG.
For in the case of the Cygnus in version 2 and 3. The Cygnus 2 would be exceptional with 3 gunners at 4,437 BV or a better marksmen and the Cygnus 3 would be a little under effective with a 4 or 3 gunnery for 2826 or 3391 BV. I like the larger guns as I consider them ammo economical. Also, the HAG 40 is one of the few weapons that may brute force Ferro-Lamellor or Ballistic Reinforced armor. I like the Cygnus 2 because I may armor strip a Kodiak or go crit fishing.
Hagmaxxer :D
@@elithradril WE LOVE HAGMAXXING OUT HERE! :P
Honestly i always compared the HAG to the inner Sphere MRM. Similar effect just different rules due to flak vs rocket box
@@Frostyviewer it isnt really like the MRM. The MRM is really quite bad unless you pull C3 shenanigans with it. It has really short range.
Also the niche case of having a skilled pilot using one as it does proportionally improve the MRM's better than some other weapons.
But depending what rules and BV totals you are using that isn't so accessible
@@R4V3-0N improving piloting/gunnery should never be off the table imo.
For the most part, with the way my play group builds lists and actually plays, i tend to think of it like cluster rounds for the LBX ac's. Basically just don't even use it until theres some holes punched to crit seek. And that's specifically because almost everybody i play against tends to build lists for survivability unless its a structured objective style game of some sort. HAG's are still powerful mind, but i personally prefer to punch holes, not sandpaper armored targets.
@@gryphon3241 they deal alot of damage. You can hole punch with a LPL then follow up.with like 15 damage, force a PSR and maybe get a crit.
I do prefer LBXs because you can use a slug round on fresh mechs, or cluster on damaged ones. Especially because the LBX cluster gets -1 TH, that is super good.
Id have to counter argue somewhat with the 2x 20s versus the Hag 40. Yes more likely to get SOME damage, but having to roll 2 hits versus just 1 hit, and since they are cluster weapons 2 cluster rolls versus 1 cluster roll, your average is that your going to have fewer hits with the 2 20s versus the HAG, because you have fewer points of failure, fewer rolls. Yes when you miss with the 40 thats a BIG Miss but the average of 1 is .5 rounded up to 1, where as the average of 2 is 1 so youll miss with one of the 20s most of the time.
@@memnarch129 some damage>no damage my guy. The average damage is higher with 2 20s assuming the same TH. The HAG does more once in range 8, or at range 15-16. But having more weapons will *always* be more average damage. Especially with higher TNs. If you need 10s to hit you have a much better chance to connect with 2 launchers. Even on 7s you still want 2 launchers since 2 chances at 60%~ is much greater than a single chance.
That's just like breaking up LRM-20's into 5 packs. Sure it's usually 3 damage, but hitting with 2x3 point clusters is better than missing with a LRM-20
@@MrDmitriRavenoff true. LRMs have a problem of being kinda hot, and i like when I hit in a solid 5 point chunk, LRM 5s can crit seek rly well.tho.
the -2 cluster hit penalty is interesting.....but and i'm sure someone mentioned this and i haven't noticed, can't reduce HAG damge with an AMS
@@Dreadwolf3155 I did. In the video lol. It was text tho...
I just like HAG's because rule of cool and a few games where I strapped a 30 to a hellfire and cleaned light mechs out. That being said, you really want to run a targeting comp. leading to a skyrocket of BV. Fun to use, but expensive.
@@simontamez6679 ya they will become waayy more expensive that way lol. Althougj most of the BV cost is ammo so... maybe not too bad.
A HAG does less damage than a ton of LRM ammo going off and can only go off once. And they come in about the same time as CASE II, iirc.
@@135forte ya CASE II is so worth it on anything with ammo... like ok yes they can only go off once, but for clan mechs your torso is almost certainly dead after even 20 damage. If the LRMs go off, it will definitely kill your torso but... they are less likely to get crit.
@TheManyVoicesVA Clan mechs wouldn't use the torso if they can help it and you are still salvageable missing just a side. No CASEless mech is salvageable after a ton of LRM ammo goes off, especially if it cascades into one of the other tons.
@@135forte all Clan mechs have CASE though. But yes Id absolutely put the HAGs in the arms.
@TheManyVoicesVA We live in a time where about the only Clan tech that is exclusive to the Clans is structure, so IS mechs need to be taken into account as well. 600pts of exploding ammo is a lot, and you probably haven't crammed them all into one location.
@@135forte agreed, CASE II on IS is heavier but still very worth it. If you have an IS XL... CASE wont save you, so I only really care about CASE II in IS XLs... one of the reasons I dont like IS XLs. IS Light engines are pretty solid tho.
Gatling Gauss goes Brrrt.
@@bulbafett5001 according to MWO it goes vvvVVV DUHDUHDUHDUH, actually :P
How often do Catalyst recalculate BV for weapons and mechs?? A HAG 40 looks like it might be good for crit seeking but jeez... there's just... better
IIRC catalyst did a BV rework after they picked up the IP. That's why it is called BV2.
And yes, we probably need a BV3 update. A couple weapons need adjusted badly, as does some of the movement options.
Overall BV2 seems pretty decent actually.
@ObiwanNekody oh shoot I didn't know that! Thanks.
@@androssthered1157BV2 is mostly well thought out, we've just had like a decade or more to optimize the shit out of it.
My impression, having never tested them, is that there's no great reason to use one over a PPC (or lrm) and they are also silly clanner stuff. Silver Bullet Gauss is a different story tho...
Let's see if your video changes my mind on them 😊
@@ObiwanNekody i think SBGR is better. It is a disgusting crit seeker and is insane at causing PSRs on ASFs and killing VTOL rotors. I played a mech with a gauss and SBGR in a tourny and it was fun.
May not be good, but it has the "Brrrrrt!"
And for that, I'll still appreciate it.
@@Kattbirb ya but LRMs have the "FWOO-FWOO-FWOO-FWOOOSH"
I like the HAG-40 because big boomstick make brain do the happy tingle.
I have a Dark Age campaign in MegaMek where I put a HAG-30 on a Victor 12D in place of the usual gauss rifle. Combined with the 12D's targeting computer and three tons of ammo, that thing is an absolute monster; terrifying damage up close like the classic Succession Wars Victor, but with the ability to still reach out and touch somebody at decent range if it needs to like the later models can.
@@AnonymousONIagent heh the Victor is such a funny mech. Ive never used one but Ive been tempted. AC20 go boom.
Just like dumping ammo, shutting down Gauss rifles can save a lot of headache.
@@matthewmarek1467 yes true. It's an optional rule though. Also, the HAG is so expensive that if you arent firing it every turn... you are really gonna miss it.
Ok here you go again with your 'numbers', 'charts', 'data', and 'facts' ... you are once again correct, however I will again make my counter arguments of: RULE OF COOL! and Bigger is better!
Keep this killer analytical content coming.
My gut always said the HAG20 was good, good to see that validated.
@@EdmondHiggins hehehe thanks. I will say the HAG 40 is alright in terms of campaign play. The ammo just costs like a zillion BV for some reason. It's cool and not as heavy and bulky.
I think of the HAG as an ER LBX that is heavy AF. Good if you have the weight and pod space for a critical seeking sniper.
@@Shredneck92 i prefer LBX by a mile. They are ridiculously good crit seekers. This makes them amazing against VTOLs and ASFs, as well as the kings of immobilizing vehicles. And pf course, once you open up a mech with a 10 damage punch, the pellets just kill components like crazy. Lbx10 is just ridiculously good overall. Probably less of a "HAG are bad" than "LBX are incredible" thing going on I guess.
Other LBX are ok as well. The 5 is a good sniper weapon that is versatile and the 20 just *hurts* up close.
@TheManyVoicesVA The ability to shoot slugs out of an LBX to break the armor open and then follow up with a cluster round makes it's better than the HAG. Maybe the clans should have made an HVLBX (HVAC but LBX)
@@Shredneck92 super long range LBX sounds amazing lol.
Hag 40 is definitely very powerful in casual games. That being said i havent seen it used much in more competitive game's. Theres also very few competitive games set in the current era
@@andydogdad4349 Id rather just have 2 20s lol. Same max damage, higher average, lower BV.
@@TheManyVoicesVA You said it in the video too, but I'm not sure how you figure it's higher average damage. If your hit chance is X, then 40 * X is always going to be the exact same as 20 * X + 20 * X.
@Cman21921 because you have 2 chances to hit. Let's say you need 8s. I have 2 chances to roll an 8, instead of 1. So *some* damage might get through. It becomes less true the lower your TH number is. Even on 7s you have like a 60~% chance to hit. So you want 2 chances to get that 60%, not 1.
@@TheManyVoicesVA I agree that there is a much better chance to not get 0 damage, but there's also a much worse chance to get 40. The average is exactly the same. Maybe you just don't mean average?
@@Cman21921over the course of the game the average is significantly higher with 2. You're not necessary hitting 40 every time but you're much more protected from rolling low.
Would you make a mech that has hags and lrms? LRMs for long range hags for closer targets. Artemis 4?
Or Srms?
@@robertbyerlay5040 you could definitely do that. It might be ok.
the hag 40 exists for the same reason the mrm 40 does. no one is going to use it but if you do, and it hits, woo baby is it going to be fun.
lmaooo there is a dire wolf with one. Kinda tempted to take it just for lols.
LRM5’s are the most optimized LRM launcher, not 15’s.
@@jeffersonian000 for BV and weight, yes. But they take up 1 extra crit slot and generate 1 more heat per tube than 15s. It's a little more efficient to run 15s en masse than 5s. U need too many heat sinks that running 5s isnt possible because they take so much crit space.
@@TheManyVoicesVA
Clan LRM15 is 3.5 tons, 2 Crit, 5 Heat.
Clan LRM5 is 1 ton, 1 Crit, 2 Heat.
You take 2x LRM15s, I take 6x LRM5s. Same throw weight (30 missiles). You generate 10 heat, I generate 12 heat. We both lose one launcher. You now have 15 tubes, and I have 25 tubes. We both lose a second launcher. You now have 0 tubes, and I have 20.
Now, let’s say you took 2x LRM20s, and for the same weight, I take 10x LRM5s. You have 40 tubes while I have 50 tubes. We both lose a launcher. You now have 20 tubes, and I have 45.
See my point?
@@jeffersonian000 we're not talking about 30 LRMs. We're talking about 70+ friend. Go make a custom mech with 75 LRMs worth of LRM 5s and tell me how the critical space and heat managment work out for you.
3xLRM5 require an extra DHS(2 crits) and 1 extra critical slot. That's 3 crit slots extra per 15 missiles. You simply cannot fit them.
If we're talking like 30 or 40 LRMs, spamming 5s is probably fine tho. It will take a little longer at the table tho which is a problem.
@@TheManyVoicesVA
I think you got my point, then moved the goal post so you can appear to have missed the point. 6 clan LRM5’s are 1 ton lighter than 2 clan LRM15’s, which means an extra clan DHS already has a spot, and you don’t have to fire all 6 every time so heat isn’t an issue. Also, name the mech with 70 LRM tubes, and I will demonstrate how switching out to 5’s will drastically increase survivability.
Personally, I like to drop an IS LRM10 for 3x LRM5’s to increase survivability while also increasing damage at a negligible cost, specifically on DRG-1G Dragons, which already have the extra Heat Sink. The goal isn’t to built a 100ton Yeoman, it’s to turn your crit spaces into hit points.
@@jeffersonian000 No in this instance specifically(for this video) I was trying to cram as many tubes in as possible. I ended up needing a crapton of heat sinks since they were so hot, although I was cooling a LPL as well which is a bit hotter for its tonnage...
The ammo comparison at the end was a little... unfair.
Yes, the HAG has 2.4x the chance of being crit (assuming all are even), but the LRM ammo bin when hit is 120 damage, 6 times more internal damage, and that is for only 1 bin, so depending on where you put the other bins, after the explosion, you still have other bombs in your mech.
Even without CASE, the HAG crit stinks because you lose the weapon, but your mech is likely alive.
A LRM ammo bin hit kills your mech. Even with CASE, the chance that multiple Bins being hit turns your pilot into a vegetable, with is still a dead mech.
@@wilsonw13 the crit cascade is a little unlikely tho. 20 damage is still enough to blow up your torso usually. Put them gauss in the arms!
We could really use a revised BV3!
@@TrailblazerBT for real. I hope they implement it at some point. Things that need work include MASC and Superchargers being a little overcosted, some weapon systems being crazy expensive(especially large weapons with big ammo cost and low ammo per ton) and probably increasing the cost of pulse lasers a bit, as well as maybe making 7+jump slightly more expensive as well.
@TheManyVoicesVA And reduce the cost of long range weapons a bit I think, and find a way to not have Griffin style ranged jumpers be so overcosted. Also reduce the cost of gunnery skill and probably up the cost of TCs especially combined with PLs
@@TrailblazerBT Make Pulse lasers not work with TCs plz :/
It doesn't get the -1 to hit that LBX / SBGR gets?
@@ObiwanNekody nope. That would be pretty OP lol.
Your calculations are based on ISLRMs with Artemis IV
@@lhke2012 How do u figure?
I distinctly remember making an "Urbie Horde" roster and discovering an UrbanMech with a HAG on it, getting really excited because I'd heard they were the new hottest toy in-universe, then getting really disappointed when I discovered it was just an LB-Gauss Rifle instead of an instant-mech-deletion button
@@derptomistic Hyper Assault Gauss is possibly the coolest name for a weapon so ya... they are a little disappointing lol.
So the takeaway from this video is never use BV for your games. You're not playing inflated WH40K.
@@gregkun1 sadly it is the only real balancing score system we have. Cbills and tonnage dont work. Tonnage especially is just pointless outside of introtech. Even there it's flawed. The Charger goes from being a decent cheap distraction unit to a useless 80 ton lump.
Funny thing is that the better comparison is between the MRMs and HAG, than the LRMs.
@@tetsatou2815 in terms of size maybe. But MRMs are rly short range.
@@TheManyVoicesVA 6 hex (180m) shorter than an LRM. 9 (270m) shorter than a HAG 40, yes, because Clanners get better shit always and forever. Of course the MRM gets twice the ammo, is 4 tons less, and 3 crits smaller, though does generate 4 more heat than a HAG40. Also eats a +1 to hit, but there's ways to offset that. Still can't compete with Clan LRM20s because they're basically the 2nd best weapon in the game behind the IS Medium Laser, but we have to ignore that to have any kind of useful discussion because the BT community would act like the Federated Commonwealth and rips itself apart if you ever suggested trying to rebalance the tech to have it make anything that resembles sense.
@tetsatou2815 ur a little off base. I think it's clan LPL>MPL>Snub PPC>IS medlas>clan LRMs
Something like that.
@@TheManyVoicesVA Nope. Measured in terms of heat to damage to tonnage to crits, nothing comes close to the IS Medium Laser, except the Clan ER Mediums, but they have a less favorable heat-damage ratio unless you have the space for infinite DHS.
I've never been a fan
@@mathewkelly9968 they are interesting. I just dont like a weapon that pays for insane range, but is encouraged to get in close.
HAG SUCKS
@@Sillyman44 not based and HAGMAXX pilled :P
@@TheManyVoicesVA plasma rifles u
@@Sillyman44 good luck doing that when I'm 16 HEXES AWAY!
@@TheManyVoicesVA I have my ways, clanner. on liao