Fixing the D&D 5e Trickery Domain Cleric | Nerd Immersion
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- Опубликовано: 20 авг 2024
- The Trickery Domain Cleric is in my opinion, one of, if not the weakest of all D&D 5e cleric domains. It is still a cleric though, so not nearly as bad as others. I take the time to delve into several other Domains and why the Trickery Domain needs to be fixed. I'm of course open to suggestions, but I feel pretty good about the "fixes" I've developed:
Level 1: Bonus Proficiency-You gain proficiency in the Stealth skill and Thieve's Tools.
Level 1: Blessing of the Trickster-Adjusted to allow you to cast it on yourself as well.
Level 2: Invoke Duplicity-No longer Concentration, and when a duplicate is next to you attack rolls against you have disadvantage.
Level 6: Cloak of Shadows-As a reaction to taking damage, you can expend a use of your Channel Divinity to turn invisible until the end of your next turn. You remain invisible until you attack, make a damage roll or force someone to make a saving throw.
Level 8: Potent Spellcasting-You add your Wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with any cleric cantrip.
Level 17: Improved Duplicity-Remains the same as in the PHB.
What do you think? What would you change/how would you improve things? What class would you like to see me fix next?
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Hi, really love your top 10 magic items and fixing videos, they are really informative and useful. Idk about your views on eldritch knight but i feel like the class abilities other than eldritch strike are kinda garbage. I get that the EK's powers are coming from the spells they get but most of their abilities are almost never used as they scale poorly with extra attack. I would really love to see a fixing eldritch knight video and show your suggestions to my dm and perhaps adopt them. Thanks
I'll add it to the list
@@NerdImmersion Thanks alot man
I'd switch out proficiency in thieves tools for deception and run this in all my games.
@@bennettbottero3352 yeah Deception or maybe Disguise/Forgery Kits
What I find odd is that this is the trickery domain but they don't give you Minor Illusion as a cantrip and maybe a skill proficiency in Deception.
Should be expertise in deception
I also think that it’s weird that you can’t use the blessing of the trickster on yourself
talking with the DM fixes this. It made sense having Minor Illusion as a cantrip.
I think Jester lost concentration on Invoke Duplicity by failing a save in an episode. Also I would give an option of stealth, sleight of hand or deception proficiency.
Maybe even performance
The trickery cleric's lackluster subclass features is offset by its overwhelmingly awesome class spell list. Best class spell list in the game, always known and always prepared.
Yeah, but having great additional spells in combination with subpar abilities is not that great, because these abilities are either passive or need to be activated which can be done on the same turn as casting a spell, so they are in addition to spellcasting. Even if the spells are better, they can't provide enough power to reach good passive or activated abilities in combination with typical cleric spells.
Part of the rise in popularity could be due to Treantmonk listing it as one of the best domains.
Couldn’t be Laura Bailey playing Jester.
@@gohantanaka "Part of"
You're right about Blessing of the Trickster. Clerics that use the ability should be able to target themselves. Also had a thought about the 1st level Skill/Tool proficiency. Clerics of the Trickery Domain can choose two from Deception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, or Thieves Tools. I feel like this wouldn't be too imbalanced.
Yeah I'm also considering disguise kit or forgery kit
I would find "trickstery" an effect that allowed you as an action or maybe as a reaction to be only defensive, an ability that allowed yourself to exchange places with your duplicate. A "Hehe, I'm not there" kind of moment.
THIS^
See the problem with that is people would use it as a teleport more than a tricky thing.
Honestly with clever positioning you can kinda do that already.
@@DanDoesDnD If its a reaction and you can only use while being attacked
I gave my Trickery cleric player minor illusion cantrip at 1st level as part of the Blessings (now plural) of the Trickster, and the ability to target oneself with the blessing.
Channel Divinity's Invisibility lasts for 1d4 rounds and reworded to match the firbolg racial trait.
Kept everything else the same, but I have a few homebrew spells adapated from earlier editions that only Trickery clerics can prepare: e.g. ventriloquism, shadow cloak, fool's gold...
I was thinking of doing the same with adding minor illusion as bonus cantrip. Or maybe adding martial weapon proficiency instead.
Bothers me that the priority seems to be dex based but you end up limited to daggers as your only finesse weapon choice.
Hi Ted, thanks for the video. It was really interesting!
I've recently taken a look at the Undying Warlock and found it's abilities and their utility rather lackluster. I'd love to see you tackle this subclass sometime!
I have felt this needed help since I started my trickery domain cleric in water deep dragon heist. We are now level14-15 each playing DotMM. I love my trickery domain cleric but I think your fixes would go along ways!
Classes that have better spell lists have worse abilities.
So the strength comes from
The spell list.
If you know you are going past 10th level it’s a worse class
I'd argue that War, Light and Tempest domain all have solid spell lists and excellent class features as well
Nerd Immersion but the spell lists aren’t as good in terms of the fact that trickery has the least amount cleric spells on their sub class spell list comparatively.
We see this in most cleric and most paladin subclasses. There are exceptions to this. Like how the conquest paladin is just a busted subclass.
I understand that the class may need fixing. I think your fix videos are interesting and far more realistic and measured than the vast majority of RUclipsrs or online non official corner creators. I just think we are not taking into consideration the design stand point most of the time. Treatmonk talks about it in his trickery domain cleric.
Basically the class is only good up to level ten. It’s not meant for high level play. It’s clear that some
Sub classes are meant for high level play and some are meant for low level. Which is lame and dumb, but it’s the way it seems to be.
Excellent and insightful as always. Wizards needs to hire you to clean up their messes:-) Keep doing what you are doing.
haha thanks! I'd gladly take a freelance gig to help in whatever capacity they'd use me.
I feel like the Domain had two goals. Be a Cleric that feels like a rogue, and don't make the rogue useless if you have one.
From that perspective I think Divine Strike Poison is the right call. You get to attack with poison daggers and bows is perfect for flavor. It's too bad about poison, but the top tier spell list makes up for that. In the same vein, you should have a lot of dex for flexible weapons.
I think the theming for poison was good I just wish they increased the damage since it’s resisted so much.
@@Exisist5151 I feel any good DM would give them an item like an improved holy symbol which allows you to ignore resistance.
Arandomcheese I’ve thought about trickery domain cleric since I posted this and I’m okay with the other abilities being bad because I realized its expanded spell list is insanely good.
@@arandomcheese the problem with poison, is that there aren't really any resistant creatures. out of 100 creature with resistance or immunity, 5 have resistance to poison ad 95 have immunity to poison. Poison is just a terrible damage tipe and thus its damage dices size is always bigger (Poison Spray deals 1d12 for example), but you can't give Tricksters more than 1d8 because it's a feature that is consistently equal for all domains...why not just make it Acid or Necrotic? since they are basically a better poison
@@riccardocorradini6713 yeah I think acid or necrotic would be the right call, and also short/longbow prof.
I'm playing a trickery domain cleric now. I've never felt underpowered, and I'm always offering clutch utility to the party with the absolutely fantastic spell list. It's like having some of the best abilities of wizard and cleric combined. I'm willing to have some somewhat underwhelming (but still situationally useful on occasion) Channel Divinity/Domain features if it means I have access to those domain spells, plus the whole rest of the cleric list.
All that's really needed is to remove concentration from the Invoke Duplicity, and change the level 6 ability to something actually useful. One of the simplest ways to do this is to make the level 6 Trickery Cleric ability that your Invoke Duplicity no longer requires concentration.
I would also give them Minor Illusion and Vicious Mockery at level 1, along with Potent Spellcasting at level 8 instead of Divine Strike.
The invisibility is useful. I play a trickery cleric and it saved my hide on several occasions
Here's an idea: If the mirror images are out and the Cleric gets hit, drop the concentration as a reaction and blink into one of the other images and takes only half damage.
I feel that invoke duplicity is your main thing. First invoke duplicity shouldn't use concentration however if you are hit, make a concentration check to see if you lose it. If you have invoke duplicity up you can still concentrate on a spell but if you take damage you CSN lose both or keep both. I imagine if you get hit enough to lose concentration with a spell, you lose invoke duplicity too. Also I think that you should be able to make melee attacks from your duplicate. This would be follow the trickster cleric using illusions to stab an enemy in the back. For the capstone when you have 4 duplicates, when you attack, you can make 1 attack from all 4. Not sure if that would be too powerful so you could calm it down by not allowing me than 1 duplicate attack the same target. It's a bit like the echo knight but it's an illusion. Regarding the 6th level ability. Making yourself invisible seems good, maybe allow attacks or allow buffing friendly targeting spells. Alternatively you can cause one attack against a friendly target to hit enemy instead. V tricking the enemy mob to hit one of their friends instead.The way I see the trickster is using illusions to make attacks from while they hide in the back. Like Loki. Duplicates and deception and not knowing where the next attack will come from. However if they get hit hard they lose their power
Hey Ted!
Really love your videos and this little community you've got around here, so I figured I'd throw my hat in the ring with how I rebuilt Trickery Cleric in the past, as well as some stuff that you inspired me to change just based on this video:
In the past, I just gave Trickery clerics Minor illusion at 1st level, plus proficiency in stealth, and I changed their divine Strike damage to psychic, but because of this video, my personal favorite fix for Trickery is below:
Fixing Trickery Domain
- (1st): Blessings of the Trickster
Advantage on stealth checks for any willing creature you touch. Additionally, you gain proficiency in the Stealth or Sleight of Hand skill, and the MAGE HAND CANTRIP. When you cast it, the hand is invisible.
- (1st, new): Cloak of Shadows
As a bonus action or as a reaction to when you take damage, you can turn invisible and move up to half your speed without provoking opportunity attacks. You remain invisible until the end of your next turn, or until you make an attack, or force a creature to make a saving throw. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier, and regain all uses when you finish a long rest.
- (2nd, altered) Invoke Duplicity
Same, but no longer requires concentration. Additionally, when its within 5ft. Of you, attacks against you have disadvantage.
- (6th, altered) Tricksters Vanish
Once per short or long rest, you are able to become undetectable for a short time. As an action, you can step onto the border Ethereal, and become invisible for one minute, or until you lose concentration(as if you were concentrating on a spell). While on the border Ethereal, you cannot affect anything not also on it, nor can anything not on the Ethereal plane affect you. If you choose to move through solid objects or creatures, both count as difficult terrain, and you take 1d10 force damage if you end your turn inside an object or creature. The effect ends if you stop concentrating, and if it would end while you are inside a solid object or creature, both you and the creature object take 3d10 force damage, and you are shunted to the nearest unoccupied space.
- (8th, altered) Potent Cantrips
Whenever you cast a cleric cantrip, you add your Wisdom modifier to the damage it does.
- (14th, new) Divine Trickery
You learn the Minor Illusion Cantrip, and it counts as a cleric cantrip for you. When you cast it, you can create the effects of both sight and sound with it if you choose. Additionally, your cleric Cantrips ignore the verbal and somatic components.
- (17, altered) Duplocitous Simulacra
When you use a channel Divinity to invoke your Duplicity, you can choose to create 3 different duplicates, or one semi- real duplicate woven from shadow stuff in the shadow fell. If you choose to create the semi-real one, it acts as a perfect replica of you, capable of producing sounds, light, and anything else you would be able to do, without casting spells, for one minute. As a bonus action when you control your duplicate, you can command it to make a weapon attack as part of that same action. The Simulacra is immune to all damage, and can manipulate and operate objects weighing no more than your cleric level in pounds. The Simulacra also gains and grants any benefits from being a conjured duplicate.
I love the idea of summoning 4 Duplicates on top of me and then next turn scattering two of them and myself while casting Mirror Image from the remaining pair of Duplicates. Not only would it seem like you're shrouding yourself in illusions to keep yourself safe, but they have every justification for why the attack missed.
I think it’s fine. The domain spells help a lot and inflict wounds works really well on this build as advantage on the attack roll or casting it at range is really useful. Also it means as a cleric you don’t have to rush to someone if they go down you have an illusion that helps extend the range of your healing.
Potentially, but think about what other Clerics can do. Forge Domain straight up becomes Immune to Fire, and Trickery gods can't even give their acolytes a duplicate that they don't need to concentrate on? Plus they're apparently only casters so having weapon attacks that deal extra poison when they are really a flanky hard to pin down archetype makes no sense. They don't even have like ranged weapon proficiencies.
I think one thing that was weird is that all other clerics get 2 features at level 1 but the trickery domain only gets 1 (blessing of the trickster)
I was thinking if the 2nd being martial weapon proficiency or a bonus cantrip for minor illusion.
Martial weapons opens options up for finesse based weapons other than daggers.
Also, Cleric subclasses that give 2 channels are weaker. CD already does Turn/Destroy Undead +Level 2 subclass feature. It doesn't really need to be eaten up by another
Trickery is my favorite domain, as I love both clerics and rogues, so I was prepared to get defensive. But no, all your points are totally valid. The spell list and flavor is good enough that I'm OK with the class as is, but if I got into a game playing the class, I might link this video to see if at least the first and 8th level abilities could be changed as you suggested.
Glad you liked it. I try and approach things from a balance/analytical standby without biasing things
@@NerdImmersion And that's why you're the guy I go to with every new UA, especially cause my players love UA and I do to. So as long as it's fairly balanced in your estimation, and nothing campaign specific prevents it, I let it go ahead. Preemptive congrats on 30k man 🙂
Short answer: I agree with you about the “be in the middle part” speaking of proficiencies. But every cleric can (and should in my opinion) live with medium armor and shield with +2 ac from dex. This remove the strength req for heavy armors (dwarfs apart). The domain spell list is one of the best of all domains and you have a lot of options. The poison damage to attacks is the worst and this is the thing that I don’t like with it, it could be interesting from a role play view, but poison in statistically the worst damage type. As a master I changed the 8th level feature in this way: you can choose the bonus damage for one attack OR take the bonus wisdom to your cantrips damage. In this way you can play as u prefer your cleric.
I totally agree with cloak of shadow
Invoke duplicity says “as if you are concentrating” as in it isn’t concentration, it just operates the same way when it comes to losing concentration. Otherwise invoke duplicity is nearly useless.
Confirmed by Jeremy Crawford, it is concentration. So you can concentrate on it or a spell, not both
@@typoko thanks for linking!
@@MurdersMachine it literally says "lasts for 1 minute, or until you lose concentration". The "as if" part is just confirming that is. It's just a piss poor way of writing it. But the first sentence is pretty clear.
@@NerdImmersion That ruling goes against the "natural language" of the description of Invoke Duplicity ("as if") - and the "natural language" argument is usually the one used for all of these disputes.
I think this ruling stems from a clarification made in Xanathar's Guide that (probably for simplicity's sake) lumps all concentration spells and concentration-like effects together.
@@gregus9535 The sentence doesn't end at the "concentration" bit, it ends at the "as if you were concentrating on a spell"-part. Meaning the "as if" is the deciding qualifier there - a clarification, if you will.
Kinda surprised you didn't touch on the 'Perfect Illusion' debacle for the Invoke Duplicity feature. That and the way the 1 minute duration hampers its out of combat capabilities.
Currently playing a Rogue in 5E and looking to add a bit to the character. Not looking for a tanky outright healer, and trying to stay in the Roguish world. Trickery Domain aligns well with my character.
I've been playing a Trickery Kenku for a while now and completely agree with you on eliminating concentration on Invoke Duplicity. As this domain’s unique trait, making Invoke Duplicity require concentration forces the PC into a choice - benefit yourself by having your duplicate out casting spells, or benefit your party through other concentration buffs/debuffs. Because of how it is designed I very rarely use it, which is a shame.
One cool fix would be "at level 1 you are proficient in deception and forgery or disguise kit and you can use your wisdom modifier for those ability checks, being guided by your god in tricking others"
That would work, I almost like that better than thieve's tools
Personally, I would have also added for Improved Duplicity that instead of just you and an illusion being within 5 feet of a creature and imposing disadvantage on attacks for that creature, that effect extends to any allied creature and an illusion within 5 feet of a creature to add some chaos. Because let's face it, if I wanna play a proper divine trickster, I'd want any allies I have to benefit from what I do and add an advantage to a battle where there wasn't one before. It would also add a bit of a protective nature to the domain that differs from others.
Excellent point. After all, they're still a cleric, and what better way to aid their allies than to fool their allies' enemies.
I agree, but would have totally gone a different direction. I'd say deception needs to be a bonus proficency (I mean, cmon) with some kinda way to boost that since your charisma probably isnt that high, and I would have given them a version of sneak attack instead of the poision damage on every hit.
Great Vid. Been thinking about fixes myself, so timely!
My changes to invoke duplicity RAW:
CHANNEL DIVINITY: INVOKE DUPLICITY
Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to create an illusory duplicate of yourself.
As an action, you create a perfect illusion of yourself that lasts for 1 minute, or until you lose your concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell).
The duplicate appears completely real, all sounds, smells, and temperature, or any other perceptible sensory effects attributed to the caster are reproduced perfectly. Creatures that rely on other senses such as Tremorsense and Blindsight cannot distinguish that it is an illusion. Truesight functions as normal and will automatically reveal the illusion as unreal.
The duplicate is intangible, as an illusion. It can't be used to manipulate or otherwise physically interact with objects or creatures. Objects and creatures (including yourself) can pass through the duplicate. Physical interaction in this manner does reveal the illusion as unreal, but does not cause it to fade or become faint in any way.
Upon casting, the duplicate appears in an unoccupied space that you can see within 30 feet of you. For the duration, you can cast spells as though you were in the iIlusion's space (including touch range spells), but you must use your own senses for targeting purposes.
As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the illusion up to 30 feet to a space you can see, but it must remain within 120 feet of you. It can move and act independently or simultaneously at the caster's discretion.
Additionally, when both you and the duplicate are within 5 feet of a creature that can see the illusion, you have advantage on attack rolls against that creature, given how distracting the illusion is to the target.
Likewise when both you and the duplicate are within 5 feet of an attacking creature that can see the illusion, that creature has a 50% chance of targeting the illusion instead. A roll should be made to determine the intended target before an attack roll is made. This continues until the duplicate has been revealed to be unreal. A targeting roll is not rolled again unless you use action(s) to recreate a situation where the attacker has no idea which target is unreal.
gotta admit, i am digging the shit out of this "fix it" series.
There are a lot of tricks to the trickery cleric that get over looked with channel duplicity. There are some good offensive touch spells that with the duplicify you don't put you in harms way. You can cast contagion through your duplicate to nerf the BBEG (this would end the duplicate though) Even better is bestow curse which when cast at a 5th level requires no concentration, if you chooose the all sources of damage do an additional d8 damage. Your spiritual weapon as a bonus action, passive spirit guardians, and main attack/ canttip/ spell also does another d8, not bad an extra 3d8 a turn sign me up.
If you want to get close to the BBEG to deliver these awesome touch spells disguise self yourself as the BBEG's lieutenant that you just killed, then evoke duplicity and now you have a dispossible copy of the lieutenant to mess up the BBEG's day.
The lvl 17th ability can be better used defencively by having your duplicates shadow your party members. Some goes down use your duplicate behind your ally to pick them back up with heal or higher lvl cure wounds. Who needs healing word when you have 120ft cure wounds.
Also this can be broken a bit as well if you enterpret the rules a certain way. When you cast touch spells througb your duplicate the game presumes that you can only touch one target at one time. But at 17th level you can touch 4 different creatures all at the same time.. So if all 4 of my duplicates touch a different party member at the same time which one receives the spell? Is it all or only one. DMs call?
Interesting! I Hadn't thought of multitouch miltiduplicate spell casting. I'd still rule one spell fires, you decide the dupe it channels through.
But the other option is appealing as hell as the capstone ability. Which feels sort of lacking when you consider potentials at high level. Its more utility and support as written and left open to creative interpretation for use.
I should one day write an essay going into detail on why I believe the Trickery domain is one of the worse designed subclasses in the game. The main issue is that it adamantly refuses to follow up on its promise of being about trickery and mischief.
Designwise, it is also all over the place. Trying to be a caster, martial and social subclass all at once, but falling short on all of them; which I guess is why the subclass lends itself so well to multiclassing. The subclass feels like it was made with a Rogue multiclass in mind, as well as having great synergy with other caster classes. But there's no real reason to go all in on the trickery domain.
This is awesome. Could you release this a stand alone pdf or google doc?
I never really thought this one needed fixing as it is the most powerful one and every single spell on their bonus spell list is relevant and useful.
Once you said how you would fix some of the things I found myself agreeing.
Curious how you feel about the new fixes ONE D&D has released with their 6th playtest update?
10/10 improvements!
Lvl 1 you gain proficiency with Thieves Tools and in any 1 of Deception, Stealth or Sleight of Hand.
At 8th level instead of extra damage your invoke duplicity double is so distracting that all melee attacks on hostile creatures within 5ft of your duplicate have advantage.
At 17th I would go with Your Invoke Duplicity does not require concentration.
perhaps maybe an added d8 of weapon type if you have advantage on divine strike, also going up to 2d8, so you have a pseudo sneak attack. someone else mentioned having the ability to remove resistance to poison damage from spells or divine strike. invisibility as a reaction BEFORE an attack once per short rest, and proficiencies in sneaky trickery stuff
I would prefer the bonus action for invisibility. If invisibility the spell was added to the domain spells, I wouldn't have fought it, but right now I wouldn't want to limit the ability to a reaction. Maybe add the reaction part to the 8th level ability and keep the divine strike since it's a weaker ability. I like the idea of Invoke Duplicity not being concentration, but I maybe it should give disadvantage to strikes at the beginning, but improved duplicity gives you advantage on attacks as well because your target doesn't know where the attack is coming from.
I watched this thinking that you would find a build that fixes the domain. How about a yuan ti trickery cleric 2/ lore bard 4. So you can use your illusion to be able to move to and touch or extend the range of heal/ buff/ debuff/ charm. Overall control mage build?
Mabye but is often difficult to juggle multiple spellcasting subclasses
What do folks think about allowing the duplicate feature to scale at high levels - say, to appear to take damage on a hit and remain in play (with a concentration check), thereby encouraging enemies to continue to attrack the duplicate?
I like a lot of the suggestions, but I think Invoke Duplicity should still require "quasi-concentration", with the added caveat (or clarification, depending how you look at it) that you can still concentrate on another spell while having your illusion active (you just need to make concentration checks for both if you take damage).
One option I think could be done is to split the Level 1 feature into a feature of its own that functions somewhat like a Pact Boon. For example, let’s call it Divine Calling.
At 1st Level, the Gods have revealed to you how you are to serve them. Choose Crusader or Priest.
Crusader: You gain proficiency with Heavy Armor and Martial Weapons. At 8th level, you can inflict an additional 1d8 Radiant or Necrotic Damage whenever you hit a creature with a weapon attack.
Priest: You gain an additional Cleric Spell of your choice. At 8th level, you add your Wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with any cleric cantrip.
This helps fix that Level 1 issue, but for every Cleric while also allowing for more freedom to play how you want to. Now, a Light Cleric can also be a melee fighter and a Life cleric a caster.
You need to fix the Arcana Dominion so their channel divinity isn't completely useless
lvl 1: Choose one cantrip, vicious mockery or minor illusion and one skill proficiency from stealth-deception-sleight of hand
remove concentration from Invoke Duplicity but not advantage or disadvantage, 50-50 chance if they dont know which one is the true one (illusion spell caster's dc)
lvl 8 is shit so potent cantrip seems nice.
thats all
I think you should get an extra dash, dissengage or hide option as a bonus action.
I love the spell list, and have a character idea that would fit this domain perfectly.
However, I'm tempted to go with one of the other possible options that fits them, Arcana or Knowledge domain, because of the issues I find with this domain.
They would be a support caster, and I feel like that wouldn't mix well with Invoke Duplicity so I would often leave the Channel Divinity unused, which is sad because it's a great ability. In addition, I find some of the other abilities odd - Invisibility for one round is not very good use of Channel Divinity compared to some of the other ones.
In addition, I find the Divine Strike really frustrating considering the class does not get heavy armor or martial weapons so they are probably not going to be the heavy melee type characters so they would quite rarely use that Divine Strike. On top of that, the damage is Poison damage, which is a common resistance/immunity in enemies. I would've much rather given them the Portent Cantrip with +WIS to cantrips.
Can you fix bladesingers 14 level ability or the beastmaster class.
My thoughts for the bladesinger give it some sort of magic lightsaber like the shadow blade or booming blade while your singing and for the beastmaster give it more beasts or give it a shared health pool with the ranger at least
I have fixes for both, so I'll get to that!
The beast master is better than people think it is. Just feels bad because you have to give up one of your attacks to utilize one or two of another creatures.
What are you talking about? Bladesingers already have access to shadow blade and booming blade.
Shadowblade is an incredible boon to the blade singer and Eldritch knight
Giving more beasts won't fix anything if you still have to use your action to command a given beast to attack.
I'd like to see your version of the Transmutation Wizard. Concept is really cool, but the actual subclass is quite lacking.
If you're saying that Invoke Duplicity imposes disadvantage on attacks against you, then Mirror Image + Invoke Duplicity (plus potentially another concentration spell like spirit guardians) makes you a REALLY good tank. I'm gonna remove the concentration from Invoke Duplicity but not give any benefits if a duplicate is within 5 feet of you.
Additionally, with your stealth benefits, you could have your duplicate cast mirror image and spirit guardians on itself, walk up to the bad guy, and just sit there dodging hits while the rest of your party sneaks to steal the treasure behind it with the stealth bonuses you provided them.
On another note, you should absolutely say that your spirit guardians just look like more duplicates of you. You'd 9 + Spirit Guardians versions of you running around the battle field.
Trickery I think is fine generally. I think as you pointed out compared to other domains you get access to some really great spells with it. Compared to especially something like the Knowledge or even the Arcana cleric. Polymorph, Disguise Self, Charm Person, Pass Without Trace, Mirror Image, Dominate Person - these are some incredibly useful spells. The flip side of that is that the actual abilities that are granted are mediocre. The only thing I would change about the subclass is that level 8 ability (this is clearly a caster cleric and it should have been given the wisdom bonus for cantrips).
I had an idea for 6th lvl trickery feature which allowed you to switch places with your duplicate as a reaction up to your wisdom mod per long rest.
literally just saw someone had the same idea in the comments. ripperonies for my "Original" idea. Then again, you could always let trickery clerics store a spell in a surprise box, basically giving them another lvl1 spell slot that can be used by anyone the next day, assuming you did not use all of your spell slots that day.
I wonder if you could use scrying to follow the duplicate and cast spells without having to see said duplicate.
The role of the cleric is not to be a striker, but to be a supporter. Sure, you can build it as a striker by picking some specific domains, but there's no need all domains have to be striker-y. There's no need all classes have to be striker-y.
On it's own trickery domain has lackluster abilities but basically all of them become cracked when you take a couple levels in rogue.
I feel any of the domains that get Divine Strike should have there weapons be considered as magic, because the weapon is getting infused with divine energy so it should say the weapon is magical for the attack.
If people want to keep Divine Strike for their Trickery domain clerics I suggest the following:
1) The 1d8/2d8 poison damage is added. The target has its poison resistance/immunity stripped until its next short rest. This is divine poison after all.
2) The 1d8/2d8 damage type added always changes to the damage type the target is weak against. If the target has no weakness add the clerics wisdom modifier to the attack. Basically sucker punching the target who thinks they are safe because they saw their buddy get cut down with fire when they are immune to fire only to get hit with cold which they are weak to.
How I would change it. Replace Blink with the 3rd level spell Gaseous Form.
Blessing of the Trickster would be self also.
Invoke would be a non concentration 30 second effect that made you invisible and sent a mirage of you running away or whatever as a distraction.
Cloak of Shadows would be replaced with Aura of Confusion, a 15 foot radius aoe that reduced all int/wis saving throws by 5 for those around the cleric for 1 minute.
8th level would be something like The Doctors Psychic paper, the ability to create an illusion on a parchment that would show whatever you wanted by sacrificing a spell slot, the higher the spell slot the longer lasting.
17th level Invoke would create 4 duplicates, they would last a minute and would be able to attack although they would not actually deal damage merely grant advantage to attackers of their targets.
Treantmonk did a pretty good trickery cleric build
I like your fixes although I think if we are going to be giving it the plus wis modifier on cantrips, we could give the class a damaging flavourful cantrip at level 1, maybe it is too much who knows. It would also be great if they could acces to minor ilussion or mage hand.
I also just realized that the trickery domain doesn't have acces to the invisibility/greater invisibility spell thats crazy
now what I would like the trickery domain to get is a way to bypass the somatic components so you could cast silent spells along with bonuses to damage you do similar to a rogues sneak attack but it applies to spells as well say a strait double damage or the ability to treat the attack as a critical hit
Sorry I meant to say verbal components also because it is strictly verbal components you can still be counter spelled
That would be incredibly OP. Spell crits can be extraordinarily high damage and if you could predict that before hand b/c you have a feature that guarantees it then the cleric would be the highest damage dealing class in the entire game (which is not what a cleric is supposed to be) because of high-level inflict wounds criticals.
Similarly bonus damage on spells is extremely powerful when combined with AoE spells that is the whole point of the Draconic Sorcerer.
Trickery clerics can already become blinking T-rexes or heal a petrified ally at 120 ft, they are one of the most overall powerful clerics because they aren't limited to focusing on just combat or just healing, they can be everywhere and do everything.
I enjoy it. I don't watch Crit Role. I am privy to off META builds. Trickery is so good to me but I see some of your points.
The thing about concentration on Duplicity is that, if there is no concentration to break, the duplicate can't be dealt with. Maybe, instead of concentration, a cleric that gets hit while Duplicity is out must make a saving throw (CON or WIS) lite if it was concentration. If it fails, the duplicate (or 1 of then) dissipates. This way, you can concentrate on a spell and still force the player to be carefull to keep the hability up.
Yeah, Duplicity is amazing, all touch spells are now ranged. There's no other stated mechanism for when the duplicate is removed... if they think it's you and attack it what happens? They realize it's an illusion? OK, but It doesn't disappear but you can still cast from it?
Consider, a hidden trickery cleric, peeking out from behind cover, can see the battlefield and has an unstoppable duplicate wandering around delivering spells while they stay hidden?
How would you fix the Necromancy Wizard?
I disagree about getting rid of Divine Strike. Most of the spells you get for Trickery either help you get close to enemies or get away from them, so I'd think this is a character that's doing hit and run type attacks, not range. Instead of shying away form the poison damage I think we should just embrace it and make it work. Here's how I'd fix the Trickery Domain, feel free to disagree if you want,
Cleric Domain spells: replace either dimension door or Polymorph with Greater Invisibility
Bonus Proficiencies: Poison Spay cantrip, Martial weapons. and Poisoner's Kit
Blessing of the Trickster: as you described in video.
Duplicity: as you described in video.
Scrape cloak of Shadows and replace with ability similar to Death Domain.
---poison damage dealt by this character ignores resistance to poison damage and treats enemies with immunity to poison as if they only had resistance instead.
Keep Divine Strike as is.
and Improved Duplicity is fine as is.
I think it's the best cleric subclass in the players handbook. The domain spells are just that good.
Personally I think trickery domain works best as support for a crime/stealth focus campaign it's works best when you are in a group.
How I see it is that the subclass called trickery and not mega blaster. Pretty much the same thing as Thief for rogues or Whispers for bards, it has abilities that are not applicable for every game. I feel like the subclass has a lot to offer to someone who wants to think outside of the box and the DM is willing to play along and wants that to be a part of the game. Cleric as a base class is already powerful in many aspects of the game, not every subclass feature of them need to be focused around combat.
I guess Laura Bailey just loves playing weak classes/subclasses to show them some love
Trickery is actually considered by many to be one of the stronger domains.
I merged Nott and Jester into one character, a trickster cleric goblin named Mordechai. 😉
He can hide and disengage if he screws up and has fury of the small. Not to mention, being a goblin he gets a plus 2 toward dex and blessing of the trickster balances out as goblins have a racial plus 6 in stealth. 😊
I say give Trickery Domain martial weapons (where all the goo finesse weapons are), maybe also proficiency with stealth or sleight of hand, and/or posioner’s kit, forgery kit, or thieves tools.
It was strikes so wierd to me some of the trickery domain abilities make 0 sense, they feel too nerfed without making sense why.
Invoke Duplicity > Spirit Guardians - am I crazy or would this work if the invoke doesn't require concentration...
It would work if Invoke wasn't concentration. As it stands you'd have to pick
My question: since Invoke Duplicity doesnt use Concentration could all of them be centers of, say, Spirit Guardians?
Well the base version as written does. If you're talking about my fix then, no. Only one of them could be the origin of spirit guardians
Nerd Immersion, I believe you are missing the point of the trickery cleric, which is why I think you believe it's underpowered. The point of a trick cleric is to never let combat happen. If the trickery cleric is in combat, it's abilities are best suited to get in and out unscathed: blink, dim door, the non-spell slot invisibility channel, etc. Team this class up with a ranger or rogue, maybe a druid, and you can think your way past every encounter and never fight a thing.
So here is my take on this matter
drive.google.com/file/d/15w0-8yoAGX8WAP3BwzNq-uys4Tco9Pu2/view?usp=drivesdk
Edit: the table I made is pretty fucked up in the google drive edition I hope you understand what I am writing
I'd prefer a choice of proficiencies: Choose one from Stealth, Slight of Hand, Deception; choose one from Thieves' Tools, Disguise Kit, or Forgery Kit. There's more than one way to trick a cat. Or something...
Proficiency should should be one between stealth slight of hand and deception
How to fix trickery domain: multiclass into rogue.
accurate
Downside of that is losing spells and the capstone, though, if those are things the player is looking forward to.
The capstone is pointless if you are not a paladin, barbarian, druid, rogue or wizard, abd you shouldn't worry about it for a long time anyway. The spells, you don't need to go too deep into rogue. With 3 levels in rogue you can still in theory get 9 levels of spells. Or you could do the opposite and go 6-8 levels in cleric and the rest in rogue, then the spells are just gravy not your main focus.
💯
Trickery Cleric with Flanking Rule?
Couple points:
1. You are frequently comparing old to new. The newer stuff is effectively the new standard, but at the same time its rational to look at the power creep that has happened since launch. This can be a justification for updating older content, but at the same time, as a dm when looking at balance of homebrew tweaks one has to take into account the difficulty of encounters. Newer subclass (on average) are stronger and require tweaks to what monsters you are using. This paragraph is mostly just to point out that there are specific situations to update older classes, and it is not a general need.
2. Domain spells are a balance point. You do point out that the trickery domain has a great domain list, but this is in part why some of the base features later on are weaker than other options from different subclasses -- especially considering trickery is an older subclass that was balanced against the other older options.
3. The cloak of shadows is a significantly powerful feature in a number of situations and i think you short changed it. Your proposed changes are a nice buff without going too far, but being able to effectively remove yourself as a target in combat is a great ability for a caster. You can also combine it with invoke duplicity to ensure the enemy cant keep track of you. It is also a huge distance tool -- you can effectively move at least 3 times your speed before the enemy knows where you are, this is almost always enough to get at least two turns of the enemy dashing compared to your one turn of doing the same -- it is a potent kiting tool.
4. For the love of god dont recommend nature cleric. If there is a cleric subclass that needs fixing it is nature cleric. Its channel divinity, domain spells and capstone are all bottom tier. The only particularly useful spells are plant growth and spike growth. Its only saving grace is the Dampen elements feature, as even though Nature has one of the best Divine strikes features, the divine strike feature is in general really bad; clerics at this level are almost always better served casting a spell (even a damaging cantrip). This is because cantrips get their first scale at lvl 5, so your sacred flame is doing 2d8 and your toll the dead would be doing 2d12; compare this to the usual 1d8+strength/dexterity+1d8 elemental damage that an attack would get you -- an attack that is generally less likely to hit as most clerics dont prioritize strength or dexterity, the mod to damage is also at best only 3 or 4 extra points of damage *and* your healer is usually more exposed to damage when trying to use divine strike (especially with melee weapons)
To explain a bit more: the channel divinity is broken the moment the creature or plant takes *any* damage, making this useless in combat. Normally i dont weigh things so heavily in terms of combat effectiveness, but this channel divinity is also fairly redundant outside of combat considering there are so many spells (most of which are low level and some of which you get as domain spells) that do the same thing in a non-combat scenario.
Considering your "allies" are only charmed until they take even 1 point damage you are very very limited in the efficacy of your capstone. Once they are free of charm they are free to do as they like, which means they will either rejoin your enemies or run away in most cases. Beasts and plants are also generally a lot less frequent in the later levels, so they have a good chance of not being available to charm in the first place
I wonder if this was meant to have sneak attack as a rogue but dropped at the last minute as a fear of it being too powerful and never replaced.
It's interesting how in a recent Unearthed Arcana they explain that Divine Strike is given to clerics who typically rely on weapons. When everything I see about the Trickery Domain tells me its casting focused
Which is wired when Rogues aren’t spell casters.
Berserker Barbarian, please.
It's on the list
lol bro what are you talking about, I play as a trick cleric and I've always thought that they're overpowered, A HEALER THAT CAN'T BE HIT?! what more could you want?!
They have polymorph! Enough said.
After jester and baba yaga i wouldnt say trickery domain is weak :X
not gonna lie i have a trickery domain cleric currently lvl 7 and he never used his duplicity and blessing of the trickster
Is duplicity because of the concentration? Would my fixes help that at all?
@@NerdImmersion probably i'll look this up with him i just think he doesnt like the ability in general but wanted to be a cleric of mask
Well, if no one in your party ever tries sneaking, I guess blessing of the trickster would never be relevant.
Trickery domain is fine. They got very good domain spells, so they are ok
I don’t think you need minor illusion. I’m playing a Trickery Cleric, and due to our campaign setting, Disguise Self has been SUPER USEFUL. Plus another party member has that spell.
I’m currently playing one, horrible😂
These dont fix anything, theyre wishes of changes. Making OP is easy dnd, work with what u have is the thinking persons dnd.