After watching some of John's videos I ended up buying an 1800kg ATM caravan, 16 foot with ensuite etc etc, pulled by my 2017 Pajero. Well within all limits. It's a nice feelng knowing that my safety margin is bigger than all our friends Taj Mahals😅. Many thanks John👍
Thankyou John. The trinity of videos on towing should be required viewing by every grey nomad and 4X4 junky. If it were up to me, towing a trailer would require an examinable endorsement on the basic drivers licence.
You give great advice. Anybody that has ever had a trailer start swaying and rear steering the car understands just how important this is. Trucking good advice.
Go down to any caravan park on the east coast and the LC200 is the rig of choice. Most are sporting the ARB catalogue of parts and ALL blindly over weight. HOPEFULLY this gets shared amongst the grey nomad fraternity. Great episode JC
I was in mildura last week and heaps of LC and 3+ tonne vans. These where all families and not the gray nomads.I am amazed by how they back these things in they are like 20+ feet..
This is my favourite AND in my view the most important video John has made, and to think he did this for free. Keep it up John, this video will literally save lives.
Every husband that’s buying a camper trailer and has a wife in his ear saying I want a 2.5t-3.5t caravan with toilet shower and indoor kitchen and indoor lounge room needs to be sat down, tied to a chair and made to watch this!!
Thanks John, all my late night searches for ATM videos have giving me quite a different perspective on load displacement, your detailed explaination is far more fitting for the handing of my big loads.
Good presentation. There is one additional engineering constraint that most seem to ignore and that is maximum allowable axle loads, particularly rear axle. These are incredibly easy to overload and I rarely hear anyone reference them.
There's a couple other over looked, Tow ball, for a long time the highest rating was 2500kg look at used car yard's and see all tow type vehicle they remove the ball from the hitch and latter it in Black gup, Tires on that 4x4 are they the original Supplied ones or recommended sizing, I don't think so, Tires all weight the same, Right.
Nobody in Aus mentions the 85% rule prevalent in the UK. If you limit your trailer ATM to 85% of the car kerb weight, you can never find yourself with an unstable combo
This is true. We have a regulatory culture problem here, where some pickups (the 4X4 ones, basically) generally offer 3.5 tonnes of towing capacity, but weigh only two tonnes themselves (kerb wt). It's ridiculous. I'm flat-out convincing people not to tow more than the vehicle weighs...
I took your advice a while ago John. Bought a Landcruiser and tow a caravan only weighing 1.6 tonne fully loaded. LC only carrying 200 kg max. Job done.
He is correct in the first part of this towing guide. He is always talking about maximum weights were in reality most people don't tow these so called Taj Mahals around and saying they cost $190,000 is silly. The average van around the max weight are around $100,000 or less. On the Toyota LC 200 with 300kg on the towball and it's rare to have 3 people, most touring around are couples and in my case with the wife it's only 140kg, so there's 100kg more for the car. Now with that 300kg on the towball now you can take 200kg from your car and put that in van, and your van will be still under GVM, so now your car GVM has gone back his 260kg now with the 100kg I saved, so you can leave that 200kg in your LC 200 and all will be good.
Comments were shut off on your weight distribution hitch response, but I wanted to drop a note to say, thank you. Your explanation of the torque forces made total sense, and helped me understand how the heck these work - especially weight distribution hitches like the Andersen, which uses no spring bars. So often, the reviews call it "magic," but I don't remember any of Newton's laws applying to magic. Also, excellent information about potential problems driving through a dip, and disconnecting the WD hitch before navigating obstacles. You've definitely gained a subscriber, and thank you for the logical explanations and understandable diagrams!
So I’ve just watched this for a SECOND TIME! All your videos are great but this is one of the best so far. It’s relevant to us because we are thinking about buying a caravan shortly. We are also considering a fifth wheeler but I imagine that the facts still hold for that. Once again a brilliant video. Many thanks John. 👍
@@rich7447 The Pa is as in dad and you do not need Dual rear wheels to tow a ton. A ton is not a big trailer if you know anything about trailering in the USA. A GM 2500 can tow over 15,000 over 7 tons. To me a big trailer is a oversized over weight that combinations over 100,000 pounds a pickup will not handle that. Your big is pretty small at 2000 pounds. A 3/4 ton truck of any of the big 3 can handle the weight he is talking about very easily. The 7700 pounds he is talking about is towable with some full size sport utility vehicles. The tractor trailer you see on the road weighs 12-18,000 and tows 60,000 pounds, it is normal that the tow vehicle weighs less than the weight towed, that is why you put 10-15 % of the weight on the tow vehicle minimum in australia they do as low as 5% which is insane and will cause fishtail in wind or counter steering.
@@badgerpa9 I don't know where you got the ides that towing a ton is a large amount. I have an entry level HD truck (Ram 2500 diesel ) and I routinely town anywhere from 10,000 to 16,000 lbs. BTW: I'm in Maryland right now, but recently moved from Kansas (unfortunately).
Thanks John. GVM’s have been chasing ATM’s and GCM’s around in my head for weeks. Thank you for explaining it all to a novice like me. You’re my hero. You rock.
Your best explanation ever. Well done. Recently looking to buy an SUV that can tow a van of 2T will a ball weight of 180kg I found that only really the expensive euro SUVs would meet my needs. I previously had a Touareg 180 which was great but with a replacement starting at $105k decided to sell the van and just buy a car (loving the Stinger). With the huge caravan market in Australia I don’t get why manufacturers are not appropriately meeting the market. Or maybe I do, they just don’t want to be liable. Also when you ask a car salesman, they are totally clueless and will tell you it can do what you are asking for, even though it can’t.
Probably because when people see what they need to tow those massive caravans they won't buy it and will get something else that claims the same tow capacity. How many people want to buy an actual 4T truck and drive that around the suburban shopping centre car park?
As a Truck driver by occupation we have to work within GVM restrictions placed on heavy vehicles predominantly to keep the vehicles within limits to ensure safe travel. I have been looking into just such an issue as I'm looking to go the ute &van option and thus far the Dodge Ram with the optional drive ratio upgrade gives a towing capacity of 4.5 tonnes and GVM of 7.237 kg and costs start at $80k. On paper you could buy the Ram and a van within the cost of just the Landcruiser 200 alone. Also the RAM/ Ford F250 series type vehicles are trucks built primarily for towing with large over engineered chassis and drivetrains and built for the job rather than needing modification to achieve a similar result. Holden made a booboo speccing the Silverado which starts at $125k and only 3500kg capacity, when it is available in the USA like the RAM and F250 with 4500kg GVM's.
I had an early 1500 Ram and I agree with Shreck about fuel economy (they are also not as durable as the HD Rams). My low output cummins (650 lb ft) Ram is rated at about 6.5t and gets far better fuel economy than the Hemi 1500s especially when towing.
Hi John. A very informative and educational video; much appreciated. I’ve worked in risk management for many years, so have a good comprehension of what you mentioned. The key point (for me) of your video relates to the potential implications if one exceeds the set limits and there is accident, the owner of the vehicle and Taj Mahal will likely be wiped by their insurance company for operating an unroadworthy vehicle and their insurance claim denied - as you alluded to. Civil action may then follow for injuries and/or damage caused, which could mean people having to sell their houses and other assets in order to try to cover compensation. Not to mention the loss of your vehicle and whatever you were towing. Plus for me were the Triton payload figures - I’m a happy Triton owner; without a Taj Mahal! Thanks again John - great work. Cheers, Jeff.
Very clear and helpful explanation. I'm not towing anything but this video is so good that it successfully draws my curiosity in engineering and I watched the whole video without stopping. Thank you ironman!
This should wake up some people.Thanks for showing And that's why we tow 2.34 ton caravan with an Iveco Daily van GCM of 7000Kg we are always within the limits of 600/700 KG
i used to drive a 2014 iveco daily with the high output 3L they use heaps of fuel and have lots of issues. there is a kit for the front end that improves tyre wear and stops it pulling to the side of the road that not many owners know about but they are easy to drive and the doors dont suck air like smaller Isuzu trucks do. you need to keep an eye on hoses rubbing through. oil usage.. 80,000km had the manual gearbox fail, heater stop working 3 time, random no start (turn over but not fire), handbrake fixed twice and 1 recall on handbrake that made it fail again.. random brake pedal to the floor
Just got back from Cape York, 7000km in 4 weeks. Ford Ranger packed to the gills, gear and camping stuff for TWO people, basic safety and recovery gear, food and plenty of water. Minimal roof load (solar panels, awning, maxtrax). And we saw HUGE caravans being towed by 4WDs, all with the vehicle also packed to the gills, monster roof-rack loads. There was NO DOUBT in my mind that most of those with big caravans were well over the GVM and GCM limits. Insane.
With regard to the cost of 400 nights accommodation compared to the outlay for an expensive caravan....you're forgetting that the caravan will have a excellent resale value, so the net cost is much less than spending 400 nights (WITH THE MASSES) in various motels. Some of us like to get away from the crowds. On the subject of the tow vehicle choice, I agree with you 100%. I own a 3,500 ATM Bushtracker and tow it with a Chev Silverado with a GVM of 5,171kg and a GCM (allowable) of 11,113kg. My actual GCM is around 8,250kg. Apparently around 80% of these Bushtrackers are owned/towed by people with 200 series Landcruisers and on the occasions that I've voiced my concerns (along the lines of your video) I get verbally walloped by all of those owners. A typical response is along these lines: "I've been towing this set-up for thousands of kilometers and never had an issue" etc. I say they've just been lucky.
When the hans device was being introduced to nascar Dale ernheart senior pushed back saying that he had hit the wall hundreds of times and hadn't broken his kneck yet. About a month later he hit a wall and broke his neck. Because he hadn't broken his neck untill he had...
Brilliant! I am of the John school. Don’t stress towing when one can use quality accommodation and support those local communities one passes through. I do have a map of excellent coffee shops. I have a small pop up tent, stretchers and portable stove and fridge if I am caught out. Definitely no overloading and it’s easier on the pocket. Fred
Re GVM upgrades. The 105 series LandCruiser carried over the same chassis and axles from the 80 series. With different splines on the rear diff and different hubs. But looking at it, I've got no problem upgrading the gvm on my 80 series to be the same as the 105 series gvm (or very similar). It was same as you said, 4 new springs, 4 new dampers. Warranty isn't an issue on a 24 year old car.
My trailer weighs 1500kg, I've just had the gvm upgrade done because that is what will be over in my setup. I'm also investigating changing to 105 series brakes.
Hi John ,Laughed most the way through this cause it is so true, We bought the 4x4 with the intent of buying a van, That was 4 years ago, Well we have done lots of travel in Qld but still haven't bought the van, it so easy not to have one in so many ways , Cheers I'am going to happy hour and not towing a heavy van in the morning
What John says about buying a truck (RAM, Silverado, F Series etc) is on the money. The difference between towing a 3500kg van with a Ranger compared to doing it with a Silverado is staggering. The Silverado has 6.6 litres of diesel torque, but most important, it has the wheelbase that makes it stable as a tow vehicle. A white knuckle trip in a Ranger becomes a relaxing drive in the Silverado. It really doesn't know a 3500 trailer is there (it can tow 7000 kg with ease). Try one, you will never go back. Another thing is the cofg and the side profile of the trailer significantly influences the towing capability. A 3500 kg flat bed trailer caring an excavator is a who different kettle of fish to a 3500 kg 36 foot van that's 3m tall. Take Johns advice, if you really want to tow 3500kg caravan, get a Ford F250/350, RAM 2500/2500 or Silverado 2500/3500. The difference between 2500/3500/4500/5500 models is the max payload. Even better is a 5th wheel style, they are so much more stable than a bumper pull.
People often forget that changing to larger LT tyres often adds around 10 - 15kgs per corner. Those cheap Titan drawers from 4WD Supacentre are around 70kgs empty. It doesn't take much to eat away at that GVM.
Larger tires also increase the leverage that the road has on the axle (decreasing final drive ratios and braking effectiveness). If you go to a larger tire without upgrading brakes and changing gear ratios you have to decrease you tow rating. Going from a 31 to a 35 you should multiply your tow rating by 31/35. The bonus is that it also multiplies your odometer reading by the same fraction.
Thank you John. Advanced physics explained in simple form. This is why the mining companies explicitly test, re engineer and retest with senior engineers, both company and specialist consultants, manufactors, predominantly Toyota and Volvo, and NATA labs, to produce vehicles engineered specifically for site use. Clear labeling of all towable plant, stating GVM, GCM and ATM, clear towing limitations attached to the inside windscreen, and 4 days of intensive onsite training, theory in classroom with practical onsite, ensures overloading and stupid decisions, with the threat of instant dismissial, are minimal. But what you take away from all this is everyday implementation of knowledge. And if you need to exceed the capacity of your vehicle, either by towing or carrying capacity...buy a truck !!! 👍👍🇦🇺 Oh, and I can fully recommend an ex military Unimog as the ultimate off-road vehicle.
Well done John for pointing out that which should be the bleeding obvious, highlighting the absolute stupidity and false economy of the BIG 4x4 and the BIG towable home away from home, let's hope some will heed the message.
I'm so glad you have presented this in such a Down-to-Earth way. This is vital info for anyone who drives with any kind of trailer, no matter what the capacity. Everyone could use a bit more education on Trailers, and what it all means when the paperwork speak about Trailer Capacity (Braked & Unbraked), GVM & GCM, etc. . I tow a twin axle horse float that weights around 2,000 to 2500kg when loaded with two horses (depending on which pair of horses we move), and some tack, tools, and hay, etc. I drive a GU Patrol Wagon (TD42), and it handles that float sweet as. I want to get a bigger one that carries three or four horses on an angle, and will be around 4,000 to 4,500kg. I don't like the Yank Tanks, so am looking at buying a 6x6 conversion on a new/newer Patrol (or maybe a 200 series Landcruiser) that has a GVM of 4,500kg or up to around 6,100kg and can tow up to 4,500kg Trailer with Brakes. Any advice on 6x6 conversions John?
Hey John C, Great video!!! Problem is the consumer!!! The second biggest investment that most people make is a vehicle; and most never read the OWNERS MANUAL!!! I speak from the HEAVY TRUCK INDUSTRY background; I don't care what continent you live on when it comes to RV towing there should be a required drivers license. Living in the U.S. I see this problem quite often; any vehicle that is towing be it LARGE or small should be required to go through a weigh station!!! Here In the U.S. the auto manufacturers are all about the whistles and bells; here they have turn pickup trucks into Toys!!! I live at a lake and I see it constantly; over load light weight vehicles towing a heavy RV!!! (OVER LOADED)
Great vid John. Has frustrated me for years all this 3.5 t tow rubbish. Seeing all these uninsured, un or ill informed towers everywhere. This should all be reeled in. We regularly tow 1900 kg behind our 100 series. Knowing how it behaves in emergency braking situations on a bend, we will never tow more than about 2.5 tonne and really, thats stretching it. People need to think about all this. I agree a course and a license would be a good thing where sll this is taught and examined.
Absolutely brilliant video JC. I hope all the ignorant out there who are over these weights gasp loudly! How easy it is to exceed GVM...very easy! Local weigh bridge is free, so there is really no excuse. Latest issue of RV magazine tells of what you can be charged with if you smash overloaded, includes manslaughter if you kill someone!
Hey john, I’ve been saying this for years. One thing you forgot to touch on which people forget about is axle loads. When they do GVM upgrades they can’t upgrade the axle load rating most of the time. So even if you upgrade the GVM you most likely will still exceed the axle load when you add the ball weight.
You are very much correct about it being easy to surpass your limits. I have long made a habit of checking my weights when towing, via hitting the scales. Your also quite correct about the better trimmed your vehicle is the less room you have. Not to mention people are more likely to abuse it. Since they go "well i bought a top of the line vehicle so it better be able to handle it".
27:50 Oh, I hear you, John. I've been put in similar situations over the years. On another note. I knew a person that had a business painting roofs in Western Queensland; some insulating paint of some sort. He had a couple of old, F-250 (around 1970 vintage) utes/trucks with full-body-length roof-racks. He would load Ten 5 metre trestles and as many aluminium planks as he could and then send his boys from CQ coastal city out to the middle of nowhere Western Queensland. Through a bizarre set of circumstances, I had to drive one of these utes about 25km over dirt tracks and then the National highway. It was the craziest drive of my life (I'm 55 and worked in transport or was ibn vehicles for most of it). The top-heavy load combined with 1970s suspension and I think drums all-round made for a somewhat 'sailboat in a cyclone' kind of ride.
Best towing explanation out there👍. Exactly, why dont the manufacturers offer a tow GVM upgrade from factory as an option...Toyota, ,Mitsubishi, Ford etc. Agree with other comments about axle capacities and tyre ratings. Load to ground. Great work. On the video..
I 100% agree with not towing something heavier than the tow vehicle. It's a long story, but many years ago a friend and I needed to move half a dozen or so cars overnight. We had a TD Cortina as the tow vehicle and the largest of the cars we towed was an F150. It was super sketchy, but even another Cortina plus the trailer weight was still very sketchy. Luckily we only needed to move them 10km's or so.
Hi John. Thanks for your guide. You may be surprised to know that I am a 3rd time LandCruiser owner yet have gone through all these calculations myself. And I appreciate your summary. As others have stated, you should have covered the individual axle load requirements. Also a mention of trailer weight distribution. Moving weight rearward can decrease tow-ball loading - and decrease trailer stability if you have too much weight at the rear as many caravanners do with extra tires, trail bikes, etc. tacked on the rear. All a trade-off. Material for a serious towing course. I started with a 75 series Troopy which I know was towing an overweight trailer. Many times I was surprised by sneeky sand drifts on the edge of the Simpson and the trailer stabilised the Troopy from rollover purely via the sand drag acting like a kite tail and giving a delayed correction force. That truck & trailer did everything from the Gibb to the east coast. Later I moved to a 79 series (first one with front coils) and a Trayon slide-on camper. No trailer. Only towing was a heavy 2t box trailer around town. You comments about how cheap accommodation is relative to the rig costs misses a serious point. Many places I like to stay have no motels or B&B. That's what drives many nomads. Now, nearly a quarter century later I have just bought the dreaded twin cab 79 series. No, I won't be towing. Going to try an Active Camper slide-on. And maybe buy a set of those Reich Caravan Weight Control scales so I can spot check weights mid trip as the distribution is never static and most weight bridges don't really have the time to let you play around weighing each axle. Anyway, thanks again for your useful presentation. But please, don't sneer at the LandCruiser crowd. They are not all parochial red-necks. Their 4x4 tugs will likely outlast your alternative suggestions so of course they will defend their choices. Human nature. Try engaging them in a meaningful discussion rather than waving that red flag! 🚩 Cheers, John PS: BTW, many states are increasingly doing random weight checking. I have heard of people in QLD having to truck their rig back home after a roadside check. Unless you can rebalance your load on the roadside it can spell the end of your Big Lap experience. So get with the program people!
Thanks John, my wife and I came to the realization that staying in motels and hotels was the better option. Our fuel consumption went down and the choice of vehicle expanded. And the real benefit was a vehicle that my wife could drive if something happened to me and I could not drive. My mate ended up getting an imported duel wheel 6.7lt truck and a Longhorn palace. That thing is now sitting in his yard after the big Australian adventure and no one wants it at the price he is asking. We travel in style and comfort, we stay at the best and eat at the best. And we still meet others who have also done the maths.
Thank you for what should be part 1 of "Towing 101". How often do you see a retired couple cruising along in their new Landcruiser towing a 3500kg caravan (or a 3400kg Jayco because all the bits keep falling off making it lighter.....and lighter) with probably no idea about what to do should their mobile mansion start to fishtail? I need an HR licence to drive my 40ft. motorhome, yet only a car licence to drive a Silverado with a 30ft caravan. Training and a special licence for towing heavy recreational vehicles perhaps?
What state are you in. Only 14 states don't have RV exemptions (I'm in one of them). Most states you can run a over 26,000 on an RV with a standard license. Since I'm in Maryland I need a CDL for my 42' Monaco.
G’day John excellent presentation, one to upset the troops for sure, cause mate it’s got a whopping V8. Interesting topic also is the 5th wheeler and crew cab utes, rear axle capacity and turn table placement behind the rear axle, there’s death on wheels. I’ve been retired now for 5 years I wonder if this has been sorted out yet, must research it. Well done, cheers Peter
How is it that Ma and Pa 'Kettle' can go out and buy a massive caravan, load it up, whack a boat on the top of the 4x4 and take off into the wide blue yonder with no previous towing experience? As someone who did get into trouble once with the tail wagging the dog, I know how quickly things can get wacky. Luckily I was experienced and knew how to recover (despite blowing one of the 4 tyres on the caravan) but there are so many people towing huge vans who have no idea about proper towing and what to do when things go wrong. Surely there needs to be some mandatory training for towing any towed vehicle over a (yet to be determined) weight limit...
Yep. Ma and Pa Kettle here in the states probably have a much bigger caravan, but do have a better idea of tongue weight. I see toy haulers that are in the 13,000 to 17,000 lb dry weight all the time and they are usually behind a big duallie (350(0) to 650(0)). I chose the other route where my tow vehicle has a GVWR of 45,000 lbs (42' coach) and my trailer is only 10,000 lbs.
Great video, people need the same education for roof loading. After market places selling steel roof racks that only leave 10kg static roof payload and then people throw heaps of stuff on
We are yet to buy our toe vehicle for a six month road trip and we have just put a deposit on a 21ft Road Owl Comfort caravan that was specked by someone else who had to pull out of the sale due to a change in financial circumstances. (I was recommended they were best quality brand by a friend who’d done a lot of research and had experience with caravans) and it was the only camper they had that included a bunk that would be available by September and basically had all the features we wanted without going overboard (Though prior to knowing about time constraints I was considering if it was worth the logistics to have the 21ft over the 19ft). Long story short it means we get almost exactly what we want in 2 and a half months rather than 12. (Production starts in April). As it is not yet made we don’t have exact ATM and toe ball weight. The business owner estimated roughly 3.1 tons fully loaded but after purchase we called back and another employee said factory specs were ATM 2950 allowing approx. 600kg payload and a toe ball weight between 110 to 130kg. Online brochure specs said 140kg. Regarding vehicle requirements we have 3 people at approximately 210kg (with a small chance of having an extra child for a short period at some point). The harshest conditions we intend to drive is the occasional well graded dirt road and getting into van sites. We are not into 4WD off-roading. Toys are limited to 3 bikes and 3 kayaks. Currently we have a bike rack that sits on the toe ball while still allowing attachment to trailers (not sure if this is a good idea. I don’t know the bike racks fully loaded weight yet). We also haven’t bought kayaks yet so we may not end up with all 3, or get a small one for my daughter who’s on the edge of coping with an adult sized one, if weight is a problem. We are considering a dual cab Ute that is within 3 years old maybe 5 years if necessary though not wedded to a Ute if other options are practical. Price is a factor as getting much over $60,000 is pushing it. Where should we focus our search regarding finding an appropriate vehicle within the next 2 and a half months?
Just to let you know I am off to find the fabled dingo piss creek. Took your advise, bought a little van, (no toilet) and an old year 2000 landcruiser. Wish me luck, I am going to head west initially, well after a short stay on the sunny coast.
Thanks John, great video. This whole issue was fore of mind in my recent decision to buy a LC200. I opted for the Lovell's kit at 3800kg, because my 2.5T van has a 300kg ball weight. Spouse and I, like you, just can't our heads around towing up to 3.5T or anything approaching that. While our van runs an ATM of 2.5T, we like to keep it about 2.2T.
Thanks John,I love your videos. Did your advice and made it by 100kg on a van with an atm of only 2.2 ton. I now have a much smaller van and it tows easy, uses way less fuel, can take it to rougher terrain, beaches etc. My advice by a small van and if yiu need more space for longer stays bring an annex
A vehicle towing a trailer up and down steep hilly terrain will experience dynamic weight shift between trailer and vehicle, this must also be taken into account. I hope this helps
John, I heard this guy (from a reliable source), who run a business that regularly tow a car trailer with his Ute (around town). It can be done but certainly not recommended. It was like "one man in a Ute + a trailer & an old car on it". I don't think he was blowing the total weight, but I cannot imagine that will be fun at all.
Two years driving roadtrains, you get sick to death of caravans real quick, if you can catch it you can get away from it and most overtaking lanes are uphill to favour cars passing trucks... Most caravan’s won’t give you that one hill, if they did they’d never see you again and they wonder why they sometimes get run off the road.
I have run into the same issue with my coach. I have to stay in the right lane on steep grade, but have more than enough power (Cummins M11) to pass caravans being pulled by gasoline powered vehicles. Even if I pass them on the uphill they normally get by me going down since I subscribe to the "you can go down too slow many times, but only too fast once" mantra.
I often wonder why we didn't die in the late 1970s. XB 308ci 3 speed auto Falcon towing a 2.5 ton ( not tonne) tandem 25 foot caravan with electric drum brakes on 1 axle. Brisbane to Perth and back then Brisbane to Cairns then back to Emerald in CQ only addition was a transmission cooler and not a problem. Got a job in CQ , sold the van and never bought or wanted another.
You make some excellent points. I am often annoyed how scalies take delight in throwing the book at semis and road trains yet seem to do nothing about people in cars and caravans that are obviously drastically overloaded. I see so many caravans driving up the road at 70-80Km/h. Do they not have the power to go faster? (I doubt it) or is their vehicle almost out of control at 100Km/h? As a rule a semitrailer (42.5 tonne GVM with no permits) is totally safe, still handles and stops properly, and is usually still within manufactures specifications 10% overloaded. Granted weight restrictions are there on trucks to save the road more so than the truck not being able to handle the weight. A simple example is bogie drive body trucks are allowed only 22.5 tonnes, even though many are factory rated between 25 and 30 tonnes.
Club Bogan will hate you John. This was really good. The tragic thing is It's manufacturers appeal to people showing a Ute towing the Queen Mary up a steep hill at 110Kph. We all know Ute's are tough, unbreakable etc etc or so some would
I really enjoyed this. It’s everything that I’ve wondered about answered. I’d like to add that I think another part of the reason why manufacturers don’t sell cars with the height limit is that could springs don’t handle loads all that well and if you made a car with a greater load it would ride like a stay empty. And who wants that ?
It's a lot easier to take the lot across a public weighbridge when you next start out on a trip. But be prepared to unhitch and take the excess stuff back home before continuing on the trip. My tow vehicle has a GVM of 3200Kg as is the Caravan. But the GCM is 6 tonne with a max ball load of 350 Kg but I am running it at 190 Kg. Of course I have done my sums and ensured that I don't overload and have run over a weighbridge a couple of times.
Good on ya John for such a thorough and informative video. The only thing is I doubt the bogans with their overloaded utes/trailers will bother to a) click on it at all and b) actually sit through more than half an hour of what is basically maths LOL :)
I gave you a thumbs up but on reflection, there are only so many bogans that can afford a $120,000+ rig and the time to haul it around the country for months.
@@stendecstretcher5678 I'm going to use the 'ccol to be dumb' from now on. It rife in Vic as well. Some blokes learn nothing about their vehicles, just head to the outback and just hope nothing happens.
Terrific story John shame people just do.not.listen I travel 60 000km a year for work in the outback and see at least one rolled car and caravan per week Every time I think someone's dreams just been shattered by their own doing
I agree with the towing capacity of a dual cab of 3 tonne. 3.5t is only okay with a empty tray and only the driver in the car. I guess most people get the GVM upgrade to offset the downball weight, its more of a insurance when your upgrading suspension. You wouldn't want to tow over 2.0T with the standard suspension of most dual cab utes. The suspension struggles with 500kg in the tray. You can't upgrade your CGM however. But a smarter option if your going offroad is a trailer around 2.0T. Even the 4wd truck downgrade their payload when off road.
John, I've been having some spirited debate on a facebook page with regard to this topic. I think that some of the people I'm discussing this with are getting a bit confused by your diagram at 20:21 in the video. They argue that the free-standing trailer ATM (let's say 3,500kg) PLUS the GVM of the vehicle WITHOUT the trailer attached is their GCM. So in your diagram (where "1" is the ATM and "3" is the GVM), these blokes think that I am wrong when I say the GVM includes an allowance for the towball mass. The diagram appears to infer that the vehicle, sitting alone on the weighbridge, is allowed to be @ the plated GVM and THEN they can legally add the ATM onto the back. I have argued that, yes, they could do that IF they had a ZERO towball mass (ie: the trailer was perfectly balanced and imposed no downforce upon the towbar). In my opinion, your diagram falls short because the car should have the towball download indicated too. The blokes with whom I'm discussing this own Toyota VDJ79 series, so it is unfortunate that that vehicle wasn't part of your list of specific vehicles covered......but I realise you couldn't possibly cover all possibilities.
I had to look up what a Triumph Herald was. It has the same size engine as my lawn mower (I am not exaggerating, my lawnmower has a Kawasaki FX921V that matches well with the base Herald engine). I can't imagine driving that on the road let alone towing with it. What was top speed on that rig?
Not saying it addresses the real practical concerns mentioned, but Land Rover specs make an interesting comparison, and it shows how we have gone backwards at least in this area since the time of the Defender.
It's even more complicated than John suggests. For example, my L322 Range Rover 4WD has kerb weight of 2,440-2,570kg, GVM of 3,050kg, and an ATM of 3,500kg on road or 1,000kg off road. What does a big off-road caravan weigh? I'd suggest more than 1,000kg. The owners manuals states: "Maximum tow hitch load (Nose weight) If the vehicle is loaded to the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW), the nose weight is limited to 150 kg. If a greater nose weight is necessary (up to 250 kg maximum), vehicle loading should be adjusted to ensure the GVW and rear axle weights are not exceeded" Note that last bit - rear axle weights. On mine it is: "Maximum rear axle load 1850 kg NOTE: The rear axle load can be increased to a maximum of 2050 kg when towing, provided road speed is limited to 100 km/h. NOTE: Axle weights are non additive. The individual maximum axle weights and gross vehicle weight must not be exceeded." Who goes to a weighbridge and checks axle load? Also read this: rvdaily.com.au/is-this-the-most-significant-court-case-relating-to-caravanners-in-australia-ever/
After watching some of John's videos I ended up buying an 1800kg ATM caravan, 16 foot with ensuite etc etc, pulled by my 2017 Pajero. Well within all limits. It's a nice feelng knowing that my safety margin is bigger than all our friends Taj Mahals😅. Many thanks John👍
😂
Thankyou John. The trinity of videos on towing should be required viewing by every grey nomad and 4X4 junky. If it were up to me, towing a trailer would require an examinable endorsement on the basic drivers licence.
You give great advice. Anybody that has ever had a trailer start swaying and rear steering the car understands just how important this is.
Trucking good advice.
Finding this information explained in a format easy to understand has been almost impossible.
Thanks John, extremely valuable.
to play it safe i will now leave my kids at home when we go camping thanks john peace at last!
Your main problem was having them. You might be able to get a couple of bucks for them.
@@appletree8441 Im sure your parents would agree with that!
@@brendancarter5846
He's leaving them behind as well...
@@appletree8441 Remember that children are like cars: They're worth more as parts.
Lol
Go down to any caravan park on the east coast and the LC200 is the rig of choice. Most are sporting the ARB catalogue of parts and ALL blindly over weight. HOPEFULLY this gets shared amongst the grey nomad fraternity. Great episode JC
@Mojo You obviously did not listen to anything he said.
I was in mildura last week and heaps of LC and 3+ tonne vans. These where all families and not the gray nomads.I am amazed by how they back these things in they are like 20+ feet..
@@Mixos_place Easy I have a 25 footer
This is my favourite AND in my view the most important video John has made, and to think he did this for free. Keep it up John, this video will literally save lives.
You don’t take bollocks all the time,a very good,informed show, thanks.
Every husband that’s buying a camper trailer and has a wife in his ear saying I want a 2.5t-3.5t caravan with toilet shower and indoor kitchen and indoor lounge room needs to be sat down, tied to a chair and made to watch this!!
Confucius once say: Man who takes woman camping has one in-tent
At that point buy a bus based class A RV.
I know plenty of husband's pushing for all that sh*t plus more...
Thanks John, all my late night searches for ATM videos have giving me quite a different perspective on load displacement, your detailed explaination is far more fitting for the handing of my big loads.
Hahaha was intrigued as to who would broach the subject!
@@dougie8010 I love the history of ATM ruclips.net/video/cYWHqha2wfk/видео.html "Vaccum driven Suction"
@tone167 Never go ATV either!
What’s the maximum allowable ATM anyway?
Good presentation. There is one additional engineering constraint that most seem to ignore and that is maximum allowable axle loads, particularly rear axle. These are incredibly easy to overload and I rarely hear anyone reference them.
There's a couple other over looked, Tow ball, for a long time the highest rating was 2500kg look at used car yard's and see all tow type vehicle they remove the ball from the hitch and latter it in Black gup, Tires on that 4x4 are they the original Supplied ones or recommended sizing, I don't think so, Tires all weight the same, Right.
I love your presentations John, it may be a little tongue in cheek but you are spot on.
Nobody in Aus mentions the 85% rule prevalent in the UK. If you limit your trailer ATM to 85% of the car kerb weight, you can never find yourself with an unstable combo
This is true. We have a regulatory culture problem here, where some pickups (the 4X4 ones, basically) generally offer 3.5 tonnes of towing capacity, but weigh only two tonnes themselves (kerb wt). It's ridiculous. I'm flat-out convincing people not to tow more than the vehicle weighs...
I took your advice a while ago John. Bought a Landcruiser and tow a caravan only weighing 1.6 tonne fully loaded. LC only carrying 200 kg max. Job done.
He is correct in the first part of this towing guide. He is always talking about maximum weights were in reality most people don't tow these so called Taj Mahals around and saying they cost $190,000 is silly. The average van around the max weight are around $100,000 or less. On the Toyota LC 200 with 300kg on the towball and it's rare to have 3 people, most touring around are couples and in my case with the wife it's only 140kg, so there's 100kg more for the car. Now with that 300kg on the towball now you can take 200kg from your car and put that in van, and your van will be still under GVM, so now your car GVM has gone back his 260kg now with the 100kg I saved, so you can leave that 200kg in your LC 200 and all will be good.
Comments were shut off on your weight distribution hitch response, but I wanted to drop a note to say, thank you. Your explanation of the torque forces made total sense, and helped me understand how the heck these work - especially weight distribution hitches like the Andersen, which uses no spring bars. So often, the reviews call it "magic," but I don't remember any of Newton's laws applying to magic. Also, excellent information about potential problems driving through a dip, and disconnecting the WD hitch before navigating obstacles. You've definitely gained a subscriber, and thank you for the logical explanations and understandable diagrams!
Thanks John. Engineering facts beats "common sense" any day.
So I’ve just watched this for a SECOND TIME! All your videos are great but this is one of the best so far. It’s relevant to us because we are thinking about buying a caravan shortly. We are also considering a fifth wheeler but I imagine that the facts still hold for that. Once again a brilliant video. Many thanks John. 👍
As a Murican! born dude I find these videos very informative even thought they're upside down and in metric.
And driving in the wrong side of the road.
For round numbers a metric ton or 1000 kg is 2204 pounds, so 204 more than a ton. A 3/4 ton truck any brand solves the problem.
@@badgerpa9 Big trailers really need 1 ton plus. The DRWs make a huge difference. Assuming the Pa in your name is Pennsylvania.
@@rich7447 The Pa is as in dad and you do not need Dual rear wheels to tow a ton. A ton is not a big trailer if you know anything about trailering in the USA. A GM 2500 can tow over 15,000 over 7 tons. To me a big trailer is a oversized over weight that combinations over 100,000 pounds a pickup will not handle that. Your big is pretty small at 2000 pounds. A 3/4 ton truck of any of the big 3 can handle the weight he is talking about very easily. The 7700 pounds he is talking about is towable with some full size sport utility vehicles. The tractor trailer you see on the road weighs 12-18,000 and tows 60,000 pounds, it is normal that the tow vehicle weighs less than the weight towed, that is why you put 10-15 % of the weight on the tow vehicle minimum in australia they do as low as 5% which is insane and will cause fishtail in wind or counter steering.
@@badgerpa9 I don't know where you got the ides that towing a ton is a large amount. I have an entry level HD truck (Ram 2500 diesel ) and I routinely town anywhere from 10,000 to 16,000 lbs. BTW: I'm in Maryland right now, but recently moved from Kansas (unfortunately).
Thanks John. GVM’s have been chasing ATM’s and GCM’s around in my head for weeks. Thank you for explaining it all to a novice like me. You’re my hero. You rock.
Your best explanation ever. Well done.
Recently looking to buy an SUV that can tow a van of 2T will a ball weight of 180kg I found that only really the expensive euro SUVs would meet my needs. I previously had a Touareg 180 which was great but with a replacement starting at $105k decided to sell the van and just buy a car (loving the Stinger).
With the huge caravan market in Australia I don’t get why manufacturers are not appropriately meeting the market. Or maybe I do, they just don’t want to be liable. Also when you ask a car salesman, they are totally clueless and will tell you it can do what you are asking for, even though it can’t.
Probably because when people see what they need to tow those massive caravans they won't buy it and will get something else that claims the same tow capacity. How many people want to buy an actual 4T truck and drive that around the suburban shopping centre car park?
I agree bought a Pajero Sport very poor tow car swapped it for a Landcruiser. Job done.
Michael Wilson my point was about new cars. I replace my car ( for work) every 3 years. What new car has a V8 and is appropriately tow rated?
you believe a car salesman? you must be a bit stupid?
horseshoe 182 I responded to you, so obviously
As a Truck driver by occupation we have to work within GVM restrictions placed on heavy vehicles predominantly to keep the vehicles within limits to ensure safe travel. I have been looking into just such an issue as I'm looking to go the ute &van option and thus far the Dodge Ram with the optional drive ratio upgrade gives a towing capacity of 4.5 tonnes and GVM of 7.237 kg and costs start at $80k. On paper you could buy the Ram and a van within the cost of just the Landcruiser 200 alone. Also the RAM/ Ford F250 series type vehicles are trucks built primarily for towing with large over engineered chassis and drivetrains and built for the job rather than needing modification to achieve a similar result. Holden made a booboo speccing the Silverado which starts at $125k and only 3500kg capacity, when it is available in the USA like the RAM and F250 with 4500kg GVM's.
thanks ken
Dont go the 1500 got one and not happy best i can get is 28 L per hundred with 2.8 ton van my y62 Patrol is much better an 7 ton GCM.
I had an early 1500 Ram and I agree with Shreck about fuel economy (they are also not as durable as the HD Rams). My low output cummins (650 lb ft) Ram is rated at about 6.5t and gets far better fuel economy than the Hemi 1500s especially when towing.
Hi John. A very informative and educational video; much appreciated. I’ve worked in risk management for many years, so have a good comprehension of what you mentioned. The key point (for me) of your video relates to the potential implications if one exceeds the set limits and there is accident, the owner of the vehicle and Taj Mahal will likely be wiped by their insurance company for operating an unroadworthy vehicle and their insurance claim denied - as you alluded to. Civil action may then follow for injuries and/or damage caused, which could mean people having to sell their houses and other assets in order to try to cover compensation. Not to mention the loss of your vehicle and whatever you were towing. Plus for me were the Triton payload figures - I’m a happy Triton owner; without a Taj Mahal! Thanks again John - great work. Cheers, Jeff.
Very clear and helpful explanation. I'm not towing anything but this video is so good that it successfully draws my curiosity in engineering and I watched the whole video without stopping. Thank you ironman!
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching.
The best explained video on weight related matters. I’ve watched that many and this is hands down the best! Thank you
This should wake up some people.Thanks for showing And that's why we tow 2.34 ton caravan with an Iveco Daily van GCM of 7000Kg we are always within the limits of 600/700 KG
i used to drive a 2014 iveco daily with the high output 3L they use heaps of fuel and have lots of issues.
there is a kit for the front end that improves tyre wear and stops it pulling to the side of the road that not many owners know about
but they are easy to drive and the doors dont suck air like smaller Isuzu trucks do.
you need to keep an eye on hoses rubbing through. oil usage..
80,000km had the manual gearbox fail, heater stop working 3 time, random no start (turn over but not fire), handbrake fixed twice and 1 recall on handbrake that made it fail again..
random brake pedal to the floor
Just got back from Cape York, 7000km in 4 weeks. Ford Ranger packed to the gills, gear and camping stuff for TWO people, basic safety and recovery gear, food and plenty of water. Minimal roof load (solar panels, awning, maxtrax). And we saw HUGE caravans being towed by 4WDs, all with the vehicle also packed to the gills, monster roof-rack loads. There was NO DOUBT in my mind that most of those with big caravans were well over the GVM and GCM limits. Insane.
"You aren't getting away from it all, you are taking it all with you" - Classic Cardogan!
With regard to the cost of 400 nights accommodation compared to the outlay for an expensive caravan....you're forgetting that the caravan will have a excellent resale value, so the net cost is much less than spending 400 nights (WITH THE MASSES) in various motels. Some of us like to get away from the crowds.
On the subject of the tow vehicle choice, I agree with you 100%. I own a 3,500 ATM Bushtracker and tow it with a Chev Silverado with a GVM of 5,171kg and a GCM (allowable) of 11,113kg. My actual GCM is around 8,250kg.
Apparently around 80% of these Bushtrackers are owned/towed by people with 200 series Landcruisers and on the occasions that I've voiced my concerns (along the lines of your video) I get verbally walloped by all of those owners. A typical response is along these lines: "I've been towing this set-up for thousands of kilometers and never had an issue" etc. I say they've just been lucky.
Toyota drivers are like vegans... You can't tell them anything
When the hans device was being introduced to nascar Dale ernheart senior pushed back saying that he had hit the wall hundreds of times and hadn't broken his kneck yet. About a month later he hit a wall and broke his neck. Because he hadn't broken his neck untill he had...
most likely just saved somebodys life with this informative video,spot on Auto Expert TV
Brilliant! I am of the John school. Don’t stress towing when one can use quality accommodation and support those local communities one passes through. I do have a map of excellent coffee shops.
I have a small pop up tent, stretchers and portable stove and fridge if I am caught out. Definitely no overloading and it’s easier on the pocket.
Fred
Re GVM upgrades.
The 105 series LandCruiser carried over the same chassis and axles from the 80 series. With different splines on the rear diff and different hubs.
But looking at it, I've got no problem upgrading the gvm on my 80 series to be the same as the 105 series gvm (or very similar).
It was same as you said, 4 new springs, 4 new dampers. Warranty isn't an issue on a 24 year old car.
My trailer weighs 1500kg, I've just had the gvm upgrade done because that is what will be over in my setup. I'm also investigating changing to 105 series brakes.
From someone starting their research, this has been so helpful. Thank you
Hi John ,Laughed most the way through this cause it is so true, We bought the 4x4 with the intent of buying a van, That was 4 years ago, Well we have done lots of travel in Qld but still haven't bought the van, it so easy not to have one in so many ways , Cheers I'am going to happy hour and not towing a heavy van in the morning
What John says about buying a truck (RAM, Silverado, F Series etc) is on the money. The difference between towing a 3500kg van with a Ranger compared to doing it with a Silverado is staggering. The Silverado has 6.6 litres of diesel torque, but most important, it has the wheelbase that makes it stable as a tow vehicle. A white knuckle trip in a Ranger becomes a relaxing drive in the Silverado. It really doesn't know a 3500 trailer is there (it can tow 7000 kg with ease). Try one, you will never go back. Another thing is the cofg and the side profile of the trailer significantly influences the towing capability. A 3500 kg flat bed trailer caring an excavator is a who different kettle of fish to a 3500 kg 36 foot van that's 3m tall. Take Johns advice, if you really want to tow 3500kg caravan, get a Ford F250/350, RAM 2500/2500 or Silverado 2500/3500. The difference between 2500/3500/4500/5500 models is the max payload. Even better is a 5th wheel style, they are so much more stable than a bumper pull.
I've seen some people even suggest the N series trucks as well for the job.
Ram 3500 Cummings diesel. Problem solved.
Best video on the YT explaining the towing requirements!
Greetings from Eastern Arabia!
People often forget that changing to larger LT tyres often adds around 10 - 15kgs per corner. Those cheap Titan drawers from 4WD Supacentre are around 70kgs empty. It doesn't take much to eat away at that GVM.
Larger tires also increase the leverage that the road has on the axle (decreasing final drive ratios and braking effectiveness). If you go to a larger tire without upgrading brakes and changing gear ratios you have to decrease you tow rating. Going from a 31 to a 35 you should multiply your tow rating by 31/35. The bonus is that it also multiplies your odometer reading by the same fraction.
Thank you John. Advanced physics explained in simple form. This is why the mining companies explicitly test, re engineer and retest with senior engineers, both company and specialist consultants, manufactors, predominantly Toyota and Volvo, and NATA labs, to produce vehicles engineered specifically for site use. Clear labeling of all towable plant, stating GVM, GCM and ATM, clear towing limitations attached to the inside windscreen, and 4 days of intensive onsite training, theory in classroom with practical onsite, ensures overloading and stupid decisions, with the threat of instant dismissial, are minimal. But what you take away from all this is everyday implementation of knowledge. And if you need to exceed the capacity of your vehicle, either by towing or carrying capacity...buy a truck !!! 👍👍🇦🇺 Oh, and I can fully recommend an ex military Unimog as the ultimate off-road vehicle.
Well done John for pointing out that which should be the bleeding obvious, highlighting the absolute stupidity and false economy of the BIG 4x4 and the BIG towable home away from home, let's hope some will heed the message.
I'm so glad you have presented this in such a Down-to-Earth way.
This is vital info for anyone who drives with any kind of trailer, no matter what the capacity.
Everyone could use a bit more education on Trailers, and what it all means when the paperwork speak about Trailer Capacity (Braked & Unbraked), GVM & GCM, etc.
.
I tow a twin axle horse float that weights around 2,000 to 2500kg when loaded with two horses (depending on which pair of horses we move), and some tack, tools, and hay, etc.
I drive a GU Patrol Wagon (TD42), and it handles that float sweet as. I want to get a bigger one that carries three or four horses on an angle, and will be around 4,000 to 4,500kg. I don't like the Yank Tanks, so am looking at buying a 6x6 conversion on a new/newer Patrol (or maybe a 200 series Landcruiser) that has a GVM of 4,500kg or up to around 6,100kg and can tow up to 4,500kg Trailer with Brakes.
Any advice on 6x6 conversions John?
I believe he gave his advice. Hey a truck
Hey John C,
Great video!!! Problem is the consumer!!! The second biggest investment that most people make is a vehicle; and most never read the OWNERS MANUAL!!!
I speak from the HEAVY TRUCK INDUSTRY background; I don't care what continent you live on when it comes to RV towing there should be a required drivers license.
Living in the U.S. I see this problem quite often; any vehicle that is towing be it LARGE or small should be required to go through a weigh station!!!
Here In the U.S. the auto manufacturers are all about the whistles and bells; here they have turn pickup trucks into Toys!!!
I live at a lake and I see it constantly; over load light weight vehicles towing a heavy RV!!! (OVER LOADED)
Great vid John. Has frustrated me for years all this 3.5 t tow rubbish. Seeing all these uninsured, un or ill informed towers everywhere. This should all be reeled in. We regularly tow 1900 kg behind our 100 series. Knowing how it behaves in emergency braking situations on a bend, we will never tow more than about 2.5 tonne and really, thats stretching it. People need to think about all this. I agree a course and a license would be a good thing where sll this is taught and examined.
Absolutely brilliant video JC. I hope all the ignorant out there who are over these weights gasp loudly! How easy it is to exceed GVM...very easy! Local weigh bridge is free, so there is really no excuse. Latest issue of RV magazine tells of what you can be charged with if you smash overloaded, includes manslaughter if you kill someone!
Hey john,
I’ve been saying this for years. One thing you forgot to touch on which people forget about is axle loads. When they do GVM upgrades they can’t upgrade the axle load rating most of the time. So even if you upgrade the GVM you most likely will still exceed the axle load when you add the ball weight.
You are very much correct about it being easy to surpass your limits. I have long made a habit of checking my weights when towing, via hitting the scales. Your also quite correct about the better trimmed your vehicle is the less room you have. Not to mention people are more likely to abuse it. Since they go "well i bought a top of the line vehicle so it better be able to handle it".
Cant wait give my mate a copy of the "Toyota basic towing guide" who bought a LC200 for towing!
27:50 Oh, I hear you, John. I've been put in similar situations over the years. On another note. I knew a person that had a business painting roofs in Western Queensland; some insulating paint of some sort. He had a couple of old, F-250 (around 1970 vintage) utes/trucks with full-body-length roof-racks. He would load Ten 5 metre trestles and as many aluminium planks as he could and then send his boys from CQ coastal city out to the middle of nowhere Western Queensland. Through a bizarre set of circumstances, I had to drive one of these utes about 25km over dirt tracks and then the National highway. It was the craziest drive of my life (I'm 55 and worked in transport or was ibn vehicles for most of it). The top-heavy load combined with 1970s suspension and I think drums all-round made for a somewhat 'sailboat in a cyclone' kind of ride.
Best towing explanation out there👍.
Exactly, why dont the manufacturers offer a tow GVM upgrade from factory as an option...Toyota, ,Mitsubishi, Ford etc. Agree with other comments about axle capacities and tyre ratings. Load to ground.
Great work. On the video..
Spot on! Now wait for the "Yeh But....."
Bring on the nuts John.
Thank you. This needs to be said. Then said again, then again and forevermore untill people listen.
i'll need three times just to understand.
I 100% agree with not towing something heavier than the tow vehicle. It's a long story, but many years ago a friend and I needed to move half a dozen or so cars overnight. We had a TD Cortina as the tow vehicle and the largest of the cars we towed was an F150. It was super sketchy, but even another Cortina plus the trailer weight was still very sketchy. Luckily we only needed to move them 10km's or so.
Hi John. Thanks for your guide. You may be surprised to know that I am a 3rd time LandCruiser owner yet have gone through all these calculations myself. And I appreciate your summary. As others have stated, you should have covered the individual axle load requirements. Also a mention of trailer weight distribution. Moving weight rearward can decrease tow-ball loading - and decrease trailer stability if you have too much weight at the rear as many caravanners do with extra tires, trail bikes, etc. tacked on the rear. All a trade-off. Material for a serious towing course.
I started with a 75 series Troopy which I know was towing an overweight trailer. Many times I was surprised by sneeky sand drifts on the edge of the Simpson and the trailer stabilised the Troopy from rollover purely via the sand drag acting like a kite tail and giving a delayed correction force. That truck & trailer did everything from the Gibb to the east coast. Later I moved to a 79 series (first one with front coils) and a Trayon slide-on camper. No trailer. Only towing was a heavy 2t box trailer around town. You comments about how cheap accommodation is relative to the rig costs misses a serious point. Many places I like to stay have no motels or B&B. That's what drives many nomads. Now, nearly a quarter century later I have just bought the dreaded twin cab 79 series. No, I won't be towing. Going to try an Active Camper slide-on. And maybe buy a set of those Reich Caravan Weight Control scales so I can spot check weights mid trip as the distribution is never static and most weight bridges don't really have the time to let you play around weighing each axle.
Anyway, thanks again for your useful presentation. But please, don't sneer at the LandCruiser crowd. They are not all parochial red-necks. Their 4x4 tugs will likely outlast your alternative suggestions so of course they will defend their choices. Human nature. Try engaging them in a meaningful discussion rather than waving that red flag! 🚩
Cheers,
John
PS: BTW, many states are increasingly doing random weight checking. I have heard of people in QLD having to truck their rig back home after a roadside check. Unless you can rebalance your load on the roadside it can spell the end of your Big Lap experience. So get with the program people!
Superbly done. Thank you John. Wish we more constabulary here in Murka to check these overloaded nitwits.
The Best presentation on this subject ever. Well Done John.
Thanks John, my wife and I came to the realization that staying in motels and hotels was the better option. Our fuel consumption went down and the choice of vehicle expanded. And the real benefit was a vehicle that my wife could drive if something happened to me and I could not drive. My mate ended up getting an imported duel wheel 6.7lt truck and a Longhorn palace. That thing is now sitting in his yard after the big Australian adventure and no one wants it at the price he is asking. We travel in style and comfort, we stay at the best and eat at the best. And we still meet others who have also done the maths.
Errr....wow! I had no idea about any of that. And I bet I’m not the only one! Thanks. 👍
Great vid mate , nice to see an informative effort amongst all the noise , for once !
This is the best T-shirt you had. Pete the CHEMIST LOVE IRON MAN. UOU ROCK. LOVE U
Thank you for what should be part 1 of "Towing 101".
How often do you see a retired couple cruising along in their new Landcruiser towing a 3500kg caravan (or a 3400kg Jayco because all the bits keep falling off making it lighter.....and lighter) with probably no idea about what to do should their mobile mansion start to fishtail? I need an HR licence to drive my 40ft. motorhome, yet only a car licence to drive a Silverado with a 30ft caravan. Training and a special licence for towing heavy recreational vehicles perhaps?
@@frankvarga1502 So let me guess Frank, you own a Jayco with the bits falling off?
fack in the US you can drive up to 11800 kgs (vehicles or combined weight) on a car license
What state are you in. Only 14 states don't have RV exemptions (I'm in one of them). Most states you can run a over 26,000 on an RV with a standard license. Since I'm in Maryland I need a CDL for my 42' Monaco.
@@sandybutt9898 Frank left the conversation because he's always at a Jayco dealer getting his caravan fixed.
Now THAT's an Iron man T-shirt.
4G12
Only for those that get it......
@@davidgillettuk9638
ROFL🤣!
G’day John excellent presentation, one to upset the troops for sure, cause mate it’s got a whopping V8. Interesting topic also is the 5th wheeler and crew cab utes, rear axle capacity and turn table placement behind the rear axle, there’s death on wheels. I’ve been retired now for 5 years I wonder if this has been sorted out yet, must research it.
Well done, cheers Peter
Thankyou ! I now concider myself informed . . . and yes before I bought my Camper but not before buying my DPF carrying unit . sigh . .
I understood that without my brain leaking out if my ears.
Thanks for the enlightenment
Regards Tony Henderson
Thanks John - just bought a Triton 4WD so this was perfect. I was getting really confused with all the terms.
Great video! Gotta love your technical videos John! Beer garden physics are the best kind of physics!
How is it that Ma and Pa 'Kettle' can go out and buy a massive caravan, load it up, whack a boat on the top of the 4x4 and take off into the wide blue yonder with no previous towing experience? As someone who did get into trouble once with the tail wagging the dog, I know how quickly things can get wacky. Luckily I was experienced and knew how to recover (despite blowing one of the 4 tyres on the caravan) but there are so many people towing huge vans who have no idea about proper towing and what to do when things go wrong. Surely there needs to be some mandatory training for towing any towed vehicle over a (yet to be determined) weight limit...
Yep. Ma and Pa Kettle here in the states probably have a much bigger caravan, but do have a better idea of tongue weight. I see toy haulers that are in the 13,000 to 17,000 lb dry weight all the time and they are usually behind a big duallie (350(0) to 650(0)). I chose the other route where my tow vehicle has a GVWR of 45,000 lbs (42' coach) and my trailer is only 10,000 lbs.
Best explanation ive seen John. Its scary the amount of dual cabs on the road towing those huge dual axle vans grossly overloaded
Great video, people need the same education for roof loading. After market places selling steel roof racks that only leave 10kg static roof payload and then people throw heaps of stuff on
We are yet to buy our toe vehicle for a six month road trip and we have just put a deposit on a 21ft Road Owl Comfort caravan that was specked by someone else who had to pull out of the sale due to a change in financial circumstances. (I was recommended they were best quality brand by a friend who’d done a lot of research and had experience with caravans) and it was the only camper they had that included a bunk that would be available by September and basically had all the features we wanted without going overboard (Though prior to knowing about time constraints I was considering if it was worth the logistics to have the 21ft over the 19ft). Long story short it means we get almost exactly what we want in 2 and a half months rather than 12. (Production starts in April).
As it is not yet made we don’t have exact ATM and toe ball weight. The business owner estimated roughly 3.1 tons fully loaded but after purchase we called back and another employee said factory specs were ATM 2950 allowing approx. 600kg payload and a toe ball weight between 110 to 130kg. Online brochure specs said 140kg.
Regarding vehicle requirements we have 3 people at approximately 210kg (with a small chance of having an extra child for a short period at some point). The harshest conditions we intend to drive is the occasional well graded dirt road and getting into van sites. We are not into 4WD off-roading. Toys are limited to 3 bikes and 3 kayaks. Currently we have a bike rack that sits on the toe ball while still allowing attachment to trailers (not sure if this is a good idea. I don’t know the bike racks fully loaded weight yet). We also haven’t bought kayaks yet so we may not end up with all 3, or get a small one for my daughter who’s on the edge of coping with an adult sized one, if weight is a problem.
We are considering a dual cab Ute that is within 3 years old maybe 5 years if necessary though not wedded to a Ute if other options are practical. Price is a factor as getting much over $60,000 is pushing it.
Where should we focus our search regarding finding an appropriate vehicle within the next 2 and a half months?
Just to let you know I am off to find the fabled dingo piss creek. Took your advise, bought a little van, (no toilet) and an old year 2000 landcruiser. Wish me luck, I am going to head west initially, well after a short stay on the sunny coast.
Thanks John, great video. This whole issue was fore of mind in my recent decision to buy a LC200. I opted for the Lovell's kit at 3800kg, because my 2.5T van has a 300kg ball weight. Spouse and I, like you, just can't our heads around towing up to 3.5T or anything approaching that. While our van runs an ATM of 2.5T, we like to keep it about 2.2T.
Thanks John,I love your videos. Did your advice and made it by 100kg on a van with an atm of only 2.2 ton. I now have a much smaller van and it tows easy, uses way less fuel, can take it to rougher terrain, beaches etc. My advice by a small van and if yiu need more space for longer stays bring an annex
Quite simply a brilliant video John!
A vehicle towing a trailer up and down steep hilly terrain will experience dynamic weight shift between trailer and vehicle, this must also be taken into account. I hope this helps
John, I heard this guy (from a reliable source), who run a business that regularly tow a car trailer with his Ute (around town).
It can be done but certainly not recommended.
It was like "one man in a Ute + a trailer & an old car on it". I don't think he was blowing the total weight, but I cannot imagine that will be fun at all.
My son is seriously considering buying a 4x4, plus adding a towbar. I'll have him watch your advice. Many thanks.
I hope it helps him.
I wish more people would try to understand this video and not just ask the salesman, who will answer "Of course you can tow this with that".
Two years driving roadtrains, you get sick to death of caravans real quick, if you can catch it you can get away from it and most overtaking lanes are uphill to favour cars passing trucks... Most caravan’s won’t give you that one hill, if they did they’d never see you again and they wonder why they sometimes get run off the road.
I have run into the same issue with my coach. I have to stay in the right lane on steep grade, but have more than enough power (Cummins M11) to pass caravans being pulled by gasoline powered vehicles. Even if I pass them on the uphill they normally get by me going down since I subscribe to the "you can go down too slow many times, but only too fast once" mantra.
Thanks John for sharing your knowledge. This is why I am watching you, to get away from fb Warriors and salesmen.
hi John greetings from Shitsville USA brother we really enjoyed the video and love the Iron Man shirt
Alexander Karl most likely few people get it though.
John, you nailed it. Santa Fe vs LC200........who would have thought. Maybe I was wrong....
I often wonder why we didn't die in the late 1970s. XB 308ci 3 speed auto Falcon towing a 2.5 ton ( not tonne) tandem 25 foot caravan with electric drum brakes on 1 axle. Brisbane to Perth and back then Brisbane to Cairns then back to Emerald in CQ only addition was a transmission cooler and not a problem. Got a job in CQ , sold the van and never bought or wanted another.
You make some excellent points.
I am often annoyed how scalies take delight in throwing the book at semis and road trains yet seem to do nothing about people in cars and caravans that are obviously drastically overloaded. I see so many caravans driving up the road at 70-80Km/h. Do they not have the power to go faster? (I doubt it) or is their vehicle almost out of control at 100Km/h? As a rule a semitrailer (42.5 tonne GVM with no permits) is totally safe, still handles and stops properly, and is usually still within manufactures specifications 10% overloaded.
Granted weight restrictions are there on trucks to save the road more so than the truck not being able to handle the weight. A simple example is bogie drive body trucks are allowed only 22.5 tonnes, even though many are factory rated between 25 and 30 tonnes.
Beer garden physics! Yes! I own a Toyota, and was not surprised or upset by any of this, I read the numbers before buying.
Club Bogan will hate you John.
This was really good.
The tragic thing is It's manufacturers appeal to people showing a Ute towing the Queen Mary up a steep hill at 110Kph.
We all know Ute's are tough, unbreakable etc etc or so some would
Intelligent and articulate... and the maths doesn’t lie 👍
I really enjoyed this. It’s everything that I’ve wondered about answered.
I’d like to add that I think another part of the reason why manufacturers don’t sell cars with the height limit is that could springs don’t handle loads all that well and if you made a car with a greater load it would ride like a stay empty. And who wants that ?
It's a lot easier to take the lot across a public weighbridge when you next start out on a trip. But be prepared to unhitch and take the excess stuff back home before continuing on the trip. My tow vehicle has a GVM of 3200Kg as is the Caravan. But the GCM is 6 tonne with a max ball load of 350 Kg but I am running it at 190 Kg. Of course I have done my sums and ensured that I don't overload and have run over a weighbridge a couple of times.
Fantastically informative. I loved the lengthy rant at the end. From 22:51
Good on ya John for such a thorough and informative video. The only thing is I doubt the bogans with their overloaded utes/trailers will bother to a) click on it at all and b) actually sit through more than half an hour of what is basically maths LOL :)
I gave you a thumbs up but on reflection, there are only so many bogans that can afford a $120,000+ rig and the time to haul it around the country for months.
exxr especially in QLD where it's cool to be dumb.
Stendec Stretcher I've noticed the trend here in WA too.
@@stendecstretcher5678 I'm going to use the 'ccol to be dumb' from now on. It rife in Vic as well. Some blokes learn nothing about their vehicles, just head to the outback and just hope nothing happens.
Great video John. I have posted it on my Jurgens Caravans Chat Page.
Terrific story John shame people just do.not.listen
I travel 60 000km a year for work in the outback and see at least one rolled car and caravan per week
Every time I think someone's dreams just been shattered by their own doing
I agree with the towing capacity of a dual cab of 3 tonne. 3.5t is only okay with a empty tray and only the driver in the car. I guess most people get the GVM upgrade to offset the downball weight, its more of a insurance when your upgrading suspension. You wouldn't want to tow over 2.0T with the standard suspension of most dual cab utes. The suspension struggles with 500kg in the tray. You can't upgrade your CGM however.
But a smarter option if your going offroad is a trailer around 2.0T. Even the 4wd truck downgrade their payload when off road.
Is a dual cab ute the same as a crew cab pickup? I'm not really familiar with the ute.
John, I've been having some spirited debate on a facebook page with regard to this topic. I think that some of the people I'm discussing this with are getting a bit confused by your diagram at 20:21 in the video. They argue that the free-standing trailer ATM (let's say 3,500kg) PLUS the GVM of the vehicle WITHOUT the trailer attached is their GCM. So in your diagram (where "1" is the ATM and "3" is the GVM), these blokes think that I am wrong when I say the GVM includes an allowance for the towball mass.
The diagram appears to infer that the vehicle, sitting alone on the weighbridge, is allowed to be @ the plated GVM and THEN they can legally add the ATM onto the back. I have argued that, yes, they could do that IF they had a ZERO towball mass (ie: the trailer was perfectly balanced and imposed no downforce upon the towbar). In my opinion, your diagram falls short because the car should have the towball download indicated too. The blokes with whom I'm discussing this own Toyota VDJ79 series, so it is unfortunate that that vehicle wasn't part of your list of specific vehicles covered......but I realise you couldn't possibly cover all possibilities.
Mate, John clearly stated that the towball download is calculated as part of the GVM of the vehicle.
Much appreciated mate, you have saved me tons of $$ , and gave me a full understanding of what to do, brilliantly explained
Cheers 👍👍👍
Brilliant vid, very informative and helpful. Cheers mate.
My husband once towed a '74 Toyota Crown with a Triumph Herald !!!!!!
I had to look up what a Triumph Herald was. It has the same size engine as my lawn mower (I am not exaggerating, my lawnmower has a Kawasaki FX921V that matches well with the base Herald engine). I can't imagine driving that on the road let alone towing with it.
What was top speed on that rig?
I took the wheels off the caravan. Using a bit more fuel now, but saved a couple of kilos.
Not saying it addresses the real practical concerns mentioned, but Land Rover specs make an interesting comparison, and it shows how we have gone backwards at least in this area since the time of the Defender.
New Discovery actually has a pretty good payload capacity, about 800kg IRC.
It's even more complicated than John suggests. For example, my L322 Range Rover 4WD has kerb weight of 2,440-2,570kg, GVM of 3,050kg, and an ATM of 3,500kg on road or 1,000kg off road. What does a big off-road caravan weigh? I'd suggest more than 1,000kg.
The owners manuals states:
"Maximum tow hitch load (Nose weight)
If the vehicle is loaded to the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW), the nose weight is limited to 150 kg. If a
greater nose weight is necessary (up to 250 kg maximum), vehicle loading should be adjusted to ensure the GVW and rear axle weights are not exceeded"
Note that last bit - rear axle weights. On mine it is:
"Maximum rear axle load
1850 kg
NOTE: The rear axle load can be increased to a maximum of 2050 kg when towing, provided road
speed is limited to 100 km/h.
NOTE: Axle weights are non additive. The individual maximum axle weights and gross vehicle weight
must not be exceeded."
Who goes to a weighbridge and checks axle load?
Also read this: rvdaily.com.au/is-this-the-most-significant-court-case-relating-to-caravanners-in-australia-ever/
An update on the court case: magazine.rvdaily.com.au/en_US/14476/208710/caravan_crash_tragedy.html
Add side steps/bars, rear bar, six fuel tank and fuel, cargo barrier, larger tyres, roof racks etc. so many cars are over GVM without passengers.