That final end scene was great and unexpected. Faith is a great example of a slayer without a support group of friends & family. Although Kendra was a loner of sorts, she still had a strong moral code. Faith is spiralling into darkness fast.
It really is. When I was watching him in this episode, I was like this is the "Angel" I know, because I got really attached to the Angel show. He is even dressed like Season 1 Angel.
one thing i didn't realize until i got older was that faith was really just out here for most of the season. she lives in a motel and is only around to help slay or be all bad girl with buffy. nobody questions what she does all day, she has no support system, we don't know she gets money to pay for her room or get food, and she never even gets enrolled in school even tho she's around the same age as buffy. not to excuse her murdering the deputy sheriff or physically & sexually assaulting xander. she definitely needs to face consequences for both of those crimes. she also needs to face consequences for all the other terrible things she does. but i feel like the adults, at least, dropped the ball on her until things when truly left and by then faith was so used to being on her own that the idea of anyone truly wanting to help her for unselfish reasons probably seemed like a trick (lol) she didn't want to fall for. so in her twisted logic she probably sees herself as entering into a transactional relationship with the mayor where she's the one with all the power. which just leaves her open to him using her plethora of issues to manipulate her into being a handy weapon at his disposal. idk i just think she's tragically young and making the worst decisions because she thinks she can't trust anyone but herself. it makes helping her very similar to trying to help an injured animal.
Agreed, it's a massive failure on the part of the adults. Buffy's house has a spare room. Giles was supposed to be her watcher. But they just leave her to her own devices and never really try to look after her. I'm not sure she thinks she has all the power over the mayor, I think she sees him as having the most power and knows he can keep her away from facing the consequences of her actions.
Marketa is right on about Willow. Her crying was a culmination of a lot of rejection coming to a head. Re faith, she feels as if faith has usurped her spot in her two best friends lives. I didn't even think of the family/mom & Oz issues- but I'm sure that plays into it as well.
Also Faith is basically the anti-Willow. Willow is sweet and innocent, wants to be part of the group, etc. Faith is the exact opposite of that and to see a lot of those shifts happening with Faith specifically has got to feel like you as a person aren’t enough
I think Willow always thought she would lose her virginity to Xander. It was significant to her that “he chose” her for that, not knowing he was essentially coerced into it by a stronger person, he couldn’t say no.
Rana is also right. Complex feelings (not to mention teenage hormonal feelings) are a thing Chris & Suraj haven't grasped here. Even though rationally it may not make a whole lot of sense, Willow was also grieving the past possibilities of an intense first love. No matter how much she may have moved on with Oz, those buried, deep-seated feelings resurfaced because she did love Xander for a very long time. With the culmination of this & what Marketa said, willow's emotions could no longer be suppressed.
Trouble is more the way she handled it after the fact. She didn't mean to and it was clear she didn't. But she spun out of control and made things much worse.
I love the episode pretending it's gonna go down the eye-rolling "everyone inexplicably believes person they're close to did a wildly out of character thing with no proof" before immediately dodging it.
While I can see this being a drug metaphor, I think it’s more about morality and taking responsibility for your actions, even if it’s an accident. A good comparison is to look at how Buffy reacted when she “killed” Ted in season 2, versus Faith’s reaction with the deputy mayor. Remember at the time Buffy didn’t know Ted was a robot, she thought she’d killed a human. She was wracked with guilt, and even when her mom tried to cover for her by telling the police saying Ted fell down the stairs, Buffy spoke up and admitted they were fighting. Even though there was the self-defense element since he attacked her, she knew as the Slayer she had the power and took responsibility for what happened.
Buffy also had a VERY different life than faiths, and by all comparisons it was MUCH more sheltered and safe. She had so many support systems Faith NEVER had to fall back onto, her friends, her mom, Giles, a dead beat father. Based on what was happening with Angel she clearly felt bad but was deflecting and trying to say she didn’t, it’s a defense mechanism she’s learned by growing up alone abused on the streets. And it’s so interesting Buffy’s reaction in the Ted episode and her reactions to faith all this season when she proves INCREDIBLY hypocritical throughout the series. Faith was right earlier this season when she called her out, Buffy occasionally feels better and disregards the rules for her own judgement, she literaly echos faiths line in season 7 “I AM the law” 🤷🏻♂️
@Crinbo I think that overall, angel has more intriguing themes and subtext if you know how to spot it. It can be very subtle in its writing for the more serious subject matters. I love Buffy more I think but in terms of how it resonates as an adult, there are definitely things that hit more than others. Angel is def a more adult show imo and I think it has a lot of really smart storytelling and nuance if people are patient enough with it to see it through.
@@Crinbo I still prefer Buffy. Really they are just different shows that cater to different audiences. Nothing to do with adulthood or anything. Though obviously adults can have easier times deconstructing and comprehending things. I got it all the first time I watched it though when it was airing. Good show but buffy is more fun while angel is more story.
@@Crinbo yeah as an adult its fair superior in my opinion. Buffy got a little too trapped in relationship bullshit, and Xander only got worse and worse for me as the years went.
Something I've never noticed until this rewatch was Faith looking at the photo of the mayor and deputy mayor. I've always seen her as humanizing the guy finally and feeling remorse for her action. But this time, it struck me that she was probably feeling a bit of longing for connection. For someone to want to put their arms around her and take a photo together. I only see this in hindsight, but it makes that moment more complex.
When you take a emotional damaged person already who didn't have great support growing up, which causes trust issues and just simply out of control a lot, now give them superhuman powers, Faith. She's Buffy's mirror.
Agree. I always wondered why a young girl (she's younger than Buffy I think) didn't get an invite to live with Buffy and her mum. Having her in that motel always seemed awful to me, but I get it added to her being isolated and struggling to trust. It's so sad that Angel was starting to connect with her when the Watcher ruins it. Mind you it made me think of something else but I won't talk about that.
Faith makes so many thinly veiled jokes about men wanting her body and discarding her, it reminded me that she didn’t always have Slayer strength. She grew up alone with no one to protect her, so it seems obvious she was taken advantage of when she was weaker than men. Once she got her Slayer powers, it probably felt really good to have the power to take advantage of them as revenge.
@@daphneglasurus7886 Great Point. People just didn't pay enough attention to those jokes. Also Faith was not in school. She's just there to be a Slayer, which is also bad, she has no outside responsibilities besides being a Slayer
I agree with Marketa about Willow, but I feel as though it was more about Xander than anything else. When you think about their history, she was very, very much in love with him. When she found out he was dating Cordelia, in Innocence she was heartbroken, even after being interested in Oz. Then of course everything recovered, she started dating Oz and Xander was happy with Cordelie, and THEN earlier in this season Willow and Xander secretly start becoming intimate with each other. So those feelings at least on Willow's end were reignited. Even if that's all over now, it's clear that Willow will always hold a special place in her heart for Xander, and after going through that absolute rollercoaster of emotions (as a teenager no less) I'm not surprised in the slightest that she was upset. Her poor heart. The very important thing to note here though, is unlike in Innocence, she quietly deals with her emotions on her own this time, rather than blowing up at Xander. I feel like this shows the growth of her character, and that she knows she needs to deal with her past emotions on her own this time, and almost mourn the past in order to move on.
@@primecreator5257 There are, however, people on the internet stupid or psychotic enough to believe villain characters have done nothing to be redeemed from.
I'm honestly really enjoying the in-depth discussions for this show!! The show can be campy and silly, but I appreciate you all are still talking about themes because a lot of Buffy reactors don't!
@@FuzzyDlopIt does have slightly campy elements. It *needs* them, because if you cut out the snark and the camp elements then the show would be unbearably depressing and drown in melodrama.
@@amariebloom and because of season 6, half of season 7 lol I’m proud of the Normies too because their track record on this series so far has been bad when it comes to taking the themes and story lines seriously and being able to have a discussion on the show when it’s not just a campy comedy.
It’s been spoken about before, but arguably Faith is Buffy’s shadow self. Take away the friends, family, stability and Buffy might not be so different. See episode 9, The Wish. The Buffy from another dimension!
The Wishverse Buffy though was just a hard loner type of Slayer, not the self loathing, "everything goes" type that Faith is so IMHO she is not the shadow self of Buffy. Faith is more what would happen if you give huge power to a broken/damaged person, power that they really cannot handle.
If Faith isn't your favorite character then you are watching the show wrong ❤️. Only thing I'd disagree with is I think the Faith/Angel relationship is the better one.
I may have already mentioned this when Mr. Trick first started on the show, but I got to see that actor in a production of Wicked, in Chicago. I didn't realize it was him at first, because my seats were way up in the nosebleed area, plus he had a costume on that concealed his face (I think), so all I knew at first was that his voice sounded so familiar to me and I couldn't think of from where. It was driving me nuts. I kept focusing in on his voice, and felt like I had heard it before, on a show, but had no idea where. So I looked up his name in the program and there was his picture, and I was like, "Holy crap! It's Mr. Trick! That's so cool! And so randomly weird and unexpected." So whenever I watch these episodes, I'm like, heeee... I saw him on stage. 😄 RIP Mr. Trick. 😉 "Oh no... this is no good at all."
The episode is titled Consequences. And BTVS as a show always deals with the consequences for the decisions their characters make (most of the time at least). This season is so good from start to finish.
Great reaction and great discussion. Also, I'd forgotten how great the scene with Angel and Faith is here. He's really good at connecting with people and if you enjoyed that, then you've had a taste of what the Angel series tone is. Hopefully you choose to try that, even if it means one week Buffy, one week Angel.
I can’t tell if he really thought Faith killing one man gave her a thirst for human life as if she was a vampire, OR he acted like they had that in common as reverse psychology because she would hear that and think “But I didn’t like it at all, I hated how it made me feel and I hate myself”. It’s plain as day that she regrets it immensely and it made her feel horrible, which is why she’s trying to do everything she can not to face it.
Something that I don’t think is talked about much is that I feel like Faith has some self loathing, because obviously she doesn’t have any family or friends who supported or raised her growing up, and people can internalize that and something being wrong with them. Also Faith is someone who puts on a bad girl persona partially to help protect herself from being hurt, so her guilt is manifesting in a way that she’s starting to believe she might actually be a bad person, so she decides to embrace it as a way to protect herself and not feel pain. But she is a good person deep down so the feelings and contrasting emotions are messing with her head… and to think Eliza Dushku was only around 18 when she filmed this, these are a lot of a complex emotions, and she plays them really well for such a young age.
She was only 17 when she filmed this, was legally emancipated and was partying a lot. She has said since that she could relate to a lot of what Faith was going through at the time. (It was in a panel at a con, I can't remember exactly which one, she was sat next to Nick Brendon at the time.)
You all need to start watching Angel soon, as there’s a lot of crossover character archs, especially during the first few seasons. Love these reactions 😂
It's interesting when people see Willow crying as somehow selfish or possessive. She can feel bad about it. She even went off to cry alone and didn't say anything to anyone about it. Plus I think she partially was crying because she felt bad for Xander because of his choses in women
Mikey is absolutely correct with the addiction allegory. If you look at Angel as a recovering alcoholic, it all falls in line with Faith's situation and more. Also, gotta remember that Faith is a teenager. Some of her actions are how teenagers spiral after making mistakes
*SPOILERY COMMENT BELOW* ⇩ ⇩ ⇩ ⇩ ⇩ ⇩ ⇩ ⇩ ⇩ ⇩ ⇩ ⇩ ⇩ ⇩ ⇩ ⇩ In my eyes, *Wes* went from being so annoying and my most despised character to easily transforming into my favorite by the end of *Angel.* And that's among a truly phenomenal ensemble.
Remember in the season 2 episode "Ted" when Buffy "killed" Ted, she immediately confessed to the police without hesitation because that's her personality, that's why she wanted to go to Giles ASAP. Faith hasn't had a support system for God knows how long, we don't know what sort of fucked up upbringing she's had, can you imagine the mental toll that can have on someone? (I'm not justifying her behaviour, just looking at it from a different perspective to help understand). The reason why Buffy was so defiant in helping Faith is not only because she knows what it's like as she went through it before (Ted) but because she understood it was a complete accident. The way I interrupted the scene between Xander and Faith was her way of "shutting him up" because she didn't wanna hear any of it as Giles said, she's still in denial. She doesn't want to accept what happened so she shuts everyone out. Why she went to the Mayor? Well probably because everyone else around her either wants to detain her or tell her that what she did was wrong, so in her mind she probably thinks I might as well keep going on then if I'm the "bad" guy. The conversation on the street about morality between Buffy and Faith was Faith basically saying she's above the human law BECAUSE she's the slayer, she should have special privilege as she's accounted for saving thousands of lives everyday but ridding the streets from vampires. Of course that doesn't make her right but I get where she's coming from. This is her way of rationalizing the mistake she made. Faith is 1 of my favourite characters and I don't want it to seem like I'm excusing her actions but I'm just trying to give you a different perspective is all :) We all make mistakes and sometimes we handle it very, very poorly. I'm very excited for the rest of the season!
@@Madbandit77, I've seen season 5 But can't think what means by that. I'm thinking of season 6 where everyone has their minds erased by a certain person and the term Horny Giles comes up. I could never be a normie Id done beating Pat with a crow bar already over his Cersei love
Angel pointed out to Faith, made it more clear what her feelings were..that she is now flirting with embracing the power and darkness, so, she’s decided to go for it. Faith despises feeling weak, having to make amends, she wants none of it. She knows the Mayor has mysterious power, now she wants it too, to feel like being a powerful part of a winning team rather than the inferior member who is being disciplined and monitored.
I think Angel was reaching her honestly. Had Wesley not fucked it up, I think he could've gotten her to a place where she was able to admit what she did was wrong and try to process it and make amends.
Every time I watch the scene where Faith escapes from Wesley, I always wonder how come there is not a protocol when Slayers are potentially murdering people to use that compound from Helpless to make them easier to manage.
Also keep in mind that Buffy and Faith were being attacked nonstop in that alley with vamps jumping out at them left and right. That guy was truly in the wrong place at the wrong time. As for you guys comparing a slayer accidentally killing a civilian in the line of duty with other professions where it might also happen, law enforcement would be the closest analog but I actually think a slayers situation is a category onto itself. Being that they and the Watcher’s Council work outside the realm of what 90%? of the population is even aware of how can the average person put themselves into their shoes and judge them on pure conjecture? A couple years ago, when deaths at the hands of the police were reaching a high with public outcry, and everyone turned into Monday morning quarterbacks, I recall hearing about a journalist who actually decided to see what went on during such a situation. He was lead through a law enforcement training course where he would have to make split second decisions concerning potential threats to his life and the lives of civilians. You see, the mmq’s would have you believe that you have all the time in the world to explore every option known to exist before making the “right” decision. And yet, when put to the test this journalist made the same sorts of choices that actual cops have made in the line of duty. People like to say that this cop or that cop had a choice in the amount of force used but so does the person their confronting has a choice not to be a threat or pose a danger to innocent lives or the lives of those that choose to protect as a means of making a living.
I appreciate you all discussing Xander's sexual assault, a lot of people kind of gloss over that plot point. I wish they'd have taken it more seriously on the show itself.
Yes! A monumental episode. Good stuff. This one comes down to Faith pushing people away. She doesn’t want pity, and of course, she is considerably antisocial and definitely adverse to structure. Her past fucked her up, so her getting “high” off the violence and all that, etc… culminating into a troubled young person. Great post-episode discussion!!
Faith is going to go through a very interesting arc from here on out. Lots of ups and downs. One of my fav characters to watch. Ps, please react to angel 🙏🤞
Basically Buffy splits into two shows once Angel starts. Angel as a character also changes and becomes much more likable. I don't like Angel much on Buffy but I love him on his own series.
Great guys…let’s just give up the surprise character arcs and appearances in future episodes and a whole other series before the Normies even check them out😂😂😂 Good Job. 🙄Spoilers🙄
I watched *Fubby,* then *Angel.* While I prefer the latter, it's incredible to see how pivotal the crossover stories truly are. In other words: _Gawd, I hope they watch _*_Angel!_*
Mark 18:10. I turned the, CC, back on because I couldn't understand what, Chris, was saying about, "100% right". But anyway, it shows, "[_____] off", whenever someone says, "fuck off"! But I wanted to point out that, that is the kind of context that I would like to see, Buffy & Faith, have! 😁😆😅
It's so fun seeing in the moment reactions to this stuff, especially after seeing both shows in their entirety and reading most of the subsequent comic seasons. I don't want to say too much to give potential spoilers, but I will say that I think the series deals with this Faith situation well. There will be a lot of dramatic highs and lows, but on a story and character level, so good.
Did you guys know Weasley was the one working with Loki in The Avengers? He was Thanos minion and also had a small appearance in Guardians V1. He was call The Other.
You guys appreciated how good Consequences is, as an episode of dramatic storytelling with strong maturing characters & complexities... Imagine how much more you might enjoy if you didn't cackle & whoop over the most serious, tender, & pointedly UN-funny bits.
Mark 17:56. That ship being there, to me, contradicts the whole image of, "Sunnydale", being the, "small town", they think of it as, just because the, City of Los Angeles, is so much wider! 🙄
From the first time we see Allen, he is absolutely terrified of the Mayor. Just think about how much he was trembling when the Mayor was inspecting how clean his hands were. Then he suggested postponing the ritual to make him invulnerable. I get the sense Allen knew what the Mayor was up to and too terrified to let him go through with it. He apparently collected a lot of potentially incriminating information on the Mayor. I think he was hoping to get in contact with the slayers to share that information. Hopefully he’s out of his misery at this point. Or perhaps his misery is now eternal. Not sure how the afterlife works on Buffy so he may not be in a better place now.
Chris' face when Faith said "your boy" sent me to heaven and back Honestly yall flipping on Faith is wild. She's still a teenager who grew up very hard and had to do a lot to make her way in the world. It makes sense that she would go back to her main instincts of protecting herself above everyone else. As a slayer, nothing can really hold her so there's more needed for someone as strong as her. Plus she's a supernatural creature that had power thrusted upon her and power given to someone who's never had it, grace is needed even though she murdered someone. She's scared and lost and confused but acting the opposite. Her conversation with Angel was opening her up and you could see how vulnerable she was. It's easier to ignore your pain and issues than to address them. It's not wrong of Buffy to try and save the person she knew. It's not enabling to try and find her help cause with Joyce and the Scoobies, Buffy could easily be Faith.
"He worked for the Mayor so he was probably bad?" Or, just maybe, he was there looking for the Slayers because he wanted to talk to them? But the reason he did that at night, after his long day working for the Mayor, and sought them out in a dark alley, is pretty obvious - HE DIDN'T WANT TO GET CAUGHT. What would happen if one of the Mayor's minions saw him talking to a Slayer? Pretty sure if he went to the school that word would get back to the Mayor.
Mark 28:51. BTY, FYI! Slayer abilities are connected to their mood, emotions, and mental health, and anything that has to do with their, state of mind. Just like with, Spider Man! 😎
if your friend isn't perfect and is going through something, just leave them. let them fight their demons alone and probably lose, but at least you'll feel better about yourself, right?
I haven't watched yet, but I've been meaning to comment on this for a while. The 'In the 90's' schtick is only going to be good until ep10 of season 4. After that you're 'In the noughties' (by air date).
I don’t think this situation is actually an allegory for anything-unlike most of the supernatural elements in this show-it’s about the burden and responsibility that belongs to the Slayer. Buffy was thinking of quitting and fantasized often about being a normal girl, until Faith. Faith’s choices and ethics forced Buffy to realize what a slayer really means: a super hero who has more power than any other human and why that means she HAS to be the most ethical person in order to not go full evil. Faith made Buffy find what kind of Slayer she was and it crystallized her identity, which she keeps in her heart, moving forward.
Incredible post-show discussion; given where you are in the show. Way too much to come that will change minds also, full transparency, I am fully aware I can be biased against Willow and for Faith. For personal reasons my heart is fully reaching out for Faith; she is on a very dark path, completely in denial about what she did; comes with an abusive past and, at sixteen, does not believe anyone can be trusted. Her turning to the Mayor is completely believable and heart-breakingly real. kerk
Another point..it’s a luxury to have two slayers..another reason to rehabilitate a “slayer on the edge” is that unless the Watcher’s Council wants to execute a slayer in this circumstance and train up a brand new one, you have to “work with what you got”…
no witnesses other than vampires lmao till you remember how many times Buffy, Faith and the Scoobies are just casually walking down the street with crossbows and axes and swords lmao
Since we're coming up on the end of season 3, what's the plan going forward for when Angel starts? Are you watching Angel? Will it have its own slot? Are you following a guide for crossovers?
From Faith's perspective, this is how I see why she decided the Mayor was a better option than the Scoobies (whether wrong or right isn't the point for any points. Her reasoning is how I see she sees it): Giles, nor Wesley, ever even bother trying to find Faith a decent place to live and Joyce invites her for dinner in _Faith, Hope and Trick_ only to see if she can take over for Buffy. In _Faith, Hope and Trick,_ Xander and Willow only pretend to be friends with Faith because their friendship with Buffy is still rocky until the end of that episode. It is why they only treat Faith professionally in _Beauty and the Beasts_ and onward. In _Homecoming,_ Xander and Willow ignore Faith during the dance and by doing so, Faith realizes they aren't her friends anymore by making sure to put Cordelia in the car Faith was supposed to be in to ignore their own guilt and thus leaving Faith alone and friendless at a school dance of a school she doesn't even go to. Faith being upset about losing Xander and Willow as friends is why she is away from the group during _Band Candy._ In _Revelations,_ Xander attempted to use Faith as an assassin to kill Angel. Whether it was Faith's idea or not means little in terms of Xander not correcting her misconception as he asked, "Can I come?" (only after Giles is knocked out does he acknowledge [Willow and Buffy also chastise him for it] he should have tried to correct Faith's misconceptions when he had the chance as it is too late once Giles is unconscious and Faith sees it as confirmation of what she needs to do). Buffy is forced to step in the middle of Faith and Angel. And Faith emotionally distances herself from Buffy's friendship, which stepped up after Willow and Xander cut themselves off at the end of _Faith, Hope, and Trick._ Gwendolyn Post only stirred an already brewing pot of trouble. She didn't cause it. But her betrayal made things worse. After that, Faith's distrust in the Scoobies as a whole is why she is absent for the episodes _Lovers Walk_ and _The Wish._ In _Amends,_ Faith attempts to give Buffy another chance and she views Buffy as blowing said chance when she views Buffy as abandoning her and her Christmas invite for babysitting Joyce duty to help Angel. Buffy not explaining and/or not allowing Faith to come along (Joyce should know not to step outside her home after dark or invite anyone in at this point) took a larger toll on the second chance Buffy didn't even realize Faith was giving her. The hurt Faith feels over this is why she is absent in _Gingerbread_ and _Helpless._ In _The Zeppo,_ Faith's revenge against Xander for using her as an assassin is kicking him out while also getting her itch scratched. And the friendship in _Bad Girls_ is her revenge against Buffy for her real and perceived slights up to this point. She pretends to be Buffy's friend. Xander and Willow most likely giving her the idea. When this episode happens, Faith ends up needing real friendship, help, and support, and the Scooby Gang cannot offer any, which is why Buffy turns to Angel. The Scoobies have pushed her away enough to, from Faith's POV, not want to help her let alone be able to, thus they turn to Angel to help her (which was also a risk as Buffy was dating him and therefore Faith wouldn't be of a mind to trust him) but it seemed to be a start until Wesley screws it up. All trust from Faith's perspective is now 100% gone and Faith decides The Mayor is the better option, through being in denial and not trusting The Scoobies. Going to him definitely isn't right, but she views it as her only option.
Mark 19:34. Ahem. Accept for any, cunnilingus, between Angel & Buffy, for others, that's a long gap between meals! 😁 There's a, "Dracula", sitcom in which he tells of a cousin that could only safely consume the blood of virgins, and the cousin moved to, California, and "nearly starved to death"! 😆😅😎
On the Watcher thing: The Watchers headquarters is in England, and as a result many of the high ranking members are English, but it is a global organization with members from lots of different countries. Buffy's first Watcher before Giles was an American.
I like Marketa and Rana sitting next to each other. When Faith started her lying stunt at 9:00 you can literally see both of their body languages shift to girl fight mode.
Mark 3:03. Rana! Back in the 1990s, I was a member of an on-line, fan club, did she call it? 🤔 (The owner that is. She was based in, London, England.) One of the members posted about how, he or she, had no problems with the fictional characters, "Spike & Buffy", touching each other, et cetera, despite their big age difference. No! What bothered that person, was that the actor, James Marsters, was in his, Forties, and SMG, wasn't! 😁 "Ironic, don't you think?" - Song Lyric. SMG, as a teenager, won an, "Emmy Award", for playing older as, "Kendall Hart". But didn't get one for playing younger in this series! 🙄
No sympathy for Faith from this group. She needs to take responsibility for what happened and how she has been acting. She is what Buffy could be if she didn't have her friends and family.
Mark 0:54. Are all of you aware of, "That '80s Show"? 🤔 It didn't last long, probably because it didn't follow the parent sitcom's characters into the, 1980s, but instead had a whole new cast of different characters. What annoyance factor that both sitcoms had in common, was that they exaggerated the importance of the fads and social trends, by making it seem like everyone followed them, and not everyone did! For example, people that wear hand-me-downs and second-hand clothing, will be out of fashion style. People in rural areas, including the small towns, could be behind be a decade or so. 😒😏
I think because Buffy went through something similar with Ted who turned out to be a robot, buffy doesn't want to give up on faith. She's not impartial in this because she was growing close with faith and with faith could be normal because they had the same destiny in terms of being a slayer. They are equals in terms of physical strength. Buffy was there and knows it was an accident she knows faith wasn't maliciously trying to hurt the guy. Faith is similar to angel in that way so of course buffy doesnt want to give up on her.
Mark 25:25. Hmm. Remember, "Angel", the upcoming, for your group, spin-off series? I have yet to see a group place bets, about which cast members, follow him over to his own show. But anyway, when discussing possible character deaths, as you are now, you might want to consider the options about who's stays and who goes. (Though I already told you about, Cordelia Chase. 😁 Because I didn't want, Rana and Marketa, to be sad.) Your viewing experience will be quite different though! Because of a feud with, Joss Whedon, someone in charge of such things, spitefully cancelled both, "Firefly" that was on, "Fox", and "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", that was on, "The WB". He surrendered to save, "Angel"! But we viewers at home, wondered about the fate of, Buffy & Friends! Luckily for us, "UPN, saved the show, and gave us two more seasons worth, before it had to continue on as a, comic book series! Series have made the transition from, Radio to Television, such as, "Gunsmoke". This is the first one to make the transition from, movie to television series to comic book series! 😎 There were a lot of shows that jumped networks back then! "Medium", from, "NBC" to "CBS"! "Ghost Whisperer", from "CBS" to "The WB"! "Clueless", from "ABC" to "UPN"! "Sabrina the Teenage Witch", from "ABC", to "The WB"! Cher & Sabrina, met each other, during a crossover, before the network jumping happened. But when, Cher's sitcom was cancelled, she didn't end up playing a different character in, Sabrina's show, as some of the others did. Cher, Sabrina & the Halliwell Sisters, have the casting oddity of, one actor becoming the recast or replacement actor, to play the father in each show! "The WB", had this fun network promotion commercial, that features most of their fictional characters interacting with each other in a, dance club setting, with a big network logo as the major set piece. In it, you get to see, Angel & Phoebe Halliwell, wanting to flirt as they walk by each other, while being pulled away by others with them! After, "BtVS", was dropped, and "StTW", was picked up, Buffy & Friends, got removed from that fun, and Sabrina & Friends, replaced them!
I think Consequences was a brilliant, but disturbing episode. Even though Xander had lost his virginity in The Zeppo, we still see his Innocence here where Faith sexually assaults him, and tries to choke him to death. The juxtaposition here is brilliant writing where Faith is the one with power, and Xander is the helpless innocent, showing that sexual assault and murder are crimes of power over the vulnerable. Brilliant writing again. She has the power 'I see, I want, I take' Xander proves here his is still somewhat innocent, even though in The Zeppo he became more grown up and adult. An interesting line is drawn here with later episodes, as Faith has a soul and is deliberately acting like this in a fully conscious way. It shows here that sexual assault and murder are crimes of power over the innocent and vulnerable irrespective. Faith is now 'drunk' on power, and just thinks she can do what she wants to anyone, and there will be no Consequences! Teaming up with the Mayor catapults the show into the stratosphere, the build up from now until the two part Finale is totally brilliant.
Buffy is a Slayer as well and is being empathetic. It says everything about how good of a person Buffy is and not anything about Faith. Buffy killed a robot she thought was a person let us not forget. Faith is the only person on the planet who knows anything about what it is like to be a Slayer. Faith has been through a lot of trauma before this and hasn't worked out any of it. Not justifying anything but saying she has been losing her battle with darkness for a bit. Not all of you can do nuance.
They mention it being unusual that he leaves a paper trail. They are implying that he was looking to turn on the mayor. Though it's ambiguous if the mayor figured that out or not.
Thank you for discussing Xander SA. It never talked about. I'd like to add what Giles said. Faith is indenial she is literally trying to gaslight herself and other about how she feels about the death.
I do see now how the Faith story can be compared to drug addiction. Without giving too many spoilers in the latter seasons and shows it lines up a lot better that way.
Mark 15:25. Clever! Except that I almost ignored it twice, thinking it was just another advertisement! 😁 Xander & Faith? Is that the, "sexual assault", that your description refers to? 🤔. Unless she reeked of something that I'm allergic to, I wouldn't reject her sexual advances, so I never thought of it as being such. 🤔😏😒
Mark 2:40? "The More You Know 🌈⭐"? 🤔. I'll see that and raise it with a, "And knowing is half the battle! G. I. Joe! Go, Joe! A Real American Hero! G. I. Joe!" I call! 😎
That final end scene was great and unexpected. Faith is a great example of a slayer without a support group of friends & family. Although Kendra was a loner of sorts, she still had a strong moral code. Faith is spiralling into darkness fast.
Kendra also had a watcher
The Angel in this episode really is the blueprint for the show Angel.
Yeah I feel like this episode is a blueprint for the Angel series.
Yeah its almost a pilot for the pilot. Faith here is like his first "client".
It really is. When I was watching him in this episode, I was like this is the "Angel" I know, because I got really attached to the Angel show.
He is even dressed like Season 1 Angel.
one thing i didn't realize until i got older was that faith was really just out here for most of the season. she lives in a motel and is only around to help slay or be all bad girl with buffy. nobody questions what she does all day, she has no support system, we don't know she gets money to pay for her room or get food, and she never even gets enrolled in school even tho she's around the same age as buffy.
not to excuse her murdering the deputy sheriff or physically & sexually assaulting xander. she definitely needs to face consequences for both of those crimes. she also needs to face consequences for all the other terrible things she does. but i feel like the adults, at least, dropped the ball on her until things when truly left and by then faith was so used to being on her own that the idea of anyone truly wanting to help her for unselfish reasons probably seemed like a trick (lol) she didn't want to fall for.
so in her twisted logic she probably sees herself as entering into a transactional relationship with the mayor where she's the one with all the power. which just leaves her open to him using her plethora of issues to manipulate her into being a handy weapon at his disposal.
idk i just think she's tragically young and making the worst decisions because she thinks she can't trust anyone but herself. it makes helping her very similar to trying to help an injured animal.
Agreed, it's a massive failure on the part of the adults. Buffy's house has a spare room. Giles was supposed to be her watcher. But they just leave her to her own devices and never really try to look after her.
I'm not sure she thinks she has all the power over the mayor, I think she sees him as having the most power and knows he can keep her away from facing the consequences of her actions.
Either stealing money to pay for stuff, or considering how she views sex...
Marketa is right on about Willow. Her crying was a culmination of a lot of rejection coming to a head. Re faith, she feels as if faith has usurped her spot in her two best friends lives. I didn't even think of the family/mom & Oz issues- but I'm sure that plays into it as well.
But Buffy explained why she was spending so much time with Faith already.
Also Faith is basically the anti-Willow. Willow is sweet and innocent, wants to be part of the group, etc. Faith is the exact opposite of that and to see a lot of those shifts happening with Faith specifically has got to feel like you as a person aren’t enough
I think Willow always thought she would lose her virginity to Xander. It was significant to her that “he chose” her for that, not knowing he was essentially coerced into it by a stronger person, he couldn’t say no.
Rana is also right. Complex feelings (not to mention teenage hormonal feelings) are a thing Chris & Suraj haven't grasped here. Even though rationally it may not make a whole lot of sense, Willow was also grieving the past possibilities of an intense first love. No matter how much she may have moved on with Oz, those buried, deep-seated feelings resurfaced because she did love Xander for a very long time. With the culmination of this & what Marketa said, willow's emotions could no longer be suppressed.
i love the faith chris had in giles believing buffy over faith lmao
Faith's first crime was not murder, it was manslaughter.
Thank you!
Trouble is more the way she handled it after the fact. She didn't mean to and it was clear she didn't. But she spun out of control and made things much worse.
I love the episode pretending it's gonna go down the eye-rolling "everyone inexplicably believes person they're close to did a wildly out of character thing with no proof" before immediately dodging it.
While I can see this being a drug metaphor, I think it’s more about morality and taking responsibility for your actions, even if it’s an accident. A good comparison is to look at how Buffy reacted when she “killed” Ted in season 2, versus Faith’s reaction with the deputy mayor. Remember at the time Buffy didn’t know Ted was a robot, she thought she’d killed a human. She was wracked with guilt, and even when her mom tried to cover for her by telling the police saying Ted fell down the stairs, Buffy spoke up and admitted they were fighting. Even though there was the self-defense element since he attacked her, she knew as the Slayer she had the power and took responsibility for what happened.
Buffy also had a VERY different life than faiths, and by all comparisons it was MUCH more sheltered and safe. She had so many support systems Faith NEVER had to fall back onto, her friends, her mom, Giles, a dead beat father. Based on what was happening with Angel she clearly felt bad but was deflecting and trying to say she didn’t, it’s a defense mechanism she’s learned by growing up alone abused on the streets. And it’s so interesting Buffy’s reaction in the Ted episode and her reactions to faith all this season when she proves INCREDIBLY hypocritical throughout the series. Faith was right earlier this season when she called her out, Buffy occasionally feels better and disregards the rules for her own judgement, she literaly echos faiths line in season 7 “I AM the law” 🤷🏻♂️
To me, this episode is a HUGE example of why many of the earlier stuff of the Angel series is worth watching.
It’s kind of crazy how much I prefer Angel over Buffy now as an adult. God that show is so good
@Crinbo I think that overall, angel has more intriguing themes and subtext if you know how to spot it. It can be very subtle in its writing for the more serious subject matters. I love Buffy more I think but in terms of how it resonates as an adult, there are definitely things that hit more than others. Angel is def a more adult show imo and I think it has a lot of really smart storytelling and nuance if people are patient enough with it to see it through.
Angel (the show), made me feels things that no other show has made me feel
@@Crinbo I still prefer Buffy. Really they are just different shows that cater to different audiences. Nothing to do with adulthood or anything. Though obviously adults can have easier times deconstructing and comprehending things. I got it all the first time I watched it though when it was airing. Good show but buffy is more fun while angel is more story.
@@Crinbo yeah as an adult its fair superior in my opinion. Buffy got a little too trapped in relationship bullshit, and Xander only got worse and worse for me as the years went.
Something I've never noticed until this rewatch was Faith looking at the photo of the mayor and deputy mayor. I've always seen her as humanizing the guy finally and feeling remorse for her action. But this time, it struck me that she was probably feeling a bit of longing for connection. For someone to want to put their arms around her and take a photo together. I only see this in hindsight, but it makes that moment more complex.
YEP
When you take a emotional damaged person already who didn't have great support growing up, which causes trust issues and just simply out of control a lot, now give them superhuman powers, Faith. She's Buffy's mirror.
I think the most overlooked aspect about Faith is that she already came into Sunnydale broken.
@@jakelover1731 Exactly
Agree. I always wondered why a young girl (she's younger than Buffy I think) didn't get an invite to live with Buffy and her mum. Having her in that motel always seemed awful to me, but I get it added to her being isolated and struggling to trust. It's so sad that Angel was starting to connect with her when the Watcher ruins it. Mind you it made me think of something else but I won't talk about that.
Faith makes so many thinly veiled jokes about men wanting her body and discarding her, it reminded me that she didn’t always have Slayer strength. She grew up alone with no one to protect her, so it seems obvious she was taken advantage of when she was weaker than men. Once she got her Slayer powers, it probably felt really good to have the power to take advantage of them as revenge.
@@daphneglasurus7886 Great Point. People just didn't pay enough attention to those jokes. Also Faith was not in school. She's just there to be a Slayer, which is also bad, she has no outside responsibilities besides being a Slayer
The rest of the season is so good. It might be the longest run of great episodes the show has.
Exactly
I agree with Marketa about Willow, but I feel as though it was more about Xander than anything else. When you think about their history, she was very, very much in love with him. When she found out he was dating Cordelia, in Innocence she was heartbroken, even after being interested in Oz. Then of course everything recovered, she started dating Oz and Xander was happy with Cordelie, and THEN earlier in this season Willow and Xander secretly start becoming intimate with each other. So those feelings at least on Willow's end were reignited. Even if that's all over now, it's clear that Willow will always hold a special place in her heart for Xander, and after going through that absolute rollercoaster of emotions (as a teenager no less) I'm not surprised in the slightest that she was upset. Her poor heart.
The very important thing to note here though, is unlike in Innocence, she quietly deals with her emotions on her own this time, rather than blowing up at Xander. I feel like this shows the growth of her character, and that she knows she needs to deal with her past emotions on her own this time, and almost mourn the past in order to move on.
This show has some of the best storytelling and character arcs for a supernatural show.
"She's totally irredeemable now"
flashbacks to season 2 lmao
Buffy and Angel (the shows) are so good with characters going to a terrifying place but still somehow finding their way back from that.
@@serenityq26 I don't think liking a villain means believing they are redeemable.
@@primecreator5257 There are, however, people on the internet stupid or psychotic enough to believe villain characters have done nothing to be redeemed from.
Fairy is in denial about her feelings. She wants to pretend that she doesn't care about killing people so that it wouldn't hurt that she did.
I'm honestly really enjoying the in-depth discussions for this show!! The show can be campy and silly, but I appreciate you all are still talking about themes because a lot of Buffy reactors don't!
Yeah Mickey really opened up the discussion strongly and everyone was speaking their mind and listening to the others.🔥🔥
There's nothing campy and silly about Buffy. It's one of the most serious shows ever made regardless of the amazing humor.
@@FuzzyDlopIt does have slightly campy elements. It *needs* them, because if you cut out the snark and the camp elements then the show would be unbearably depressing and drown in melodrama.
@@Talisguy hello season 6
@@amariebloom and because of season 6, half of season 7 lol
I’m proud of the Normies too because their track record on this series so far has been bad when it comes to taking the themes and story lines seriously and being able to have a discussion on the show when it’s not just a campy comedy.
It’s been spoken about before, but arguably Faith is Buffy’s shadow self. Take away the friends, family, stability and Buffy might not be so different. See episode 9, The Wish. The Buffy from another dimension!
The Wishverse Buffy though was just a hard loner type of Slayer, not the self loathing, "everything goes" type that Faith is so IMHO she is not the shadow self of Buffy. Faith is more what would happen if you give huge power to a broken/damaged person, power that they really cannot handle.
@@Henrik_Holst She can be both roles at the same time. It doesn't have to be directly 1 to 1
@@dutchkel agrred, as usual there are grey zones and things are complicated and messy :)
"You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped."
Normie redemption arc is real.
Faith is still to this day my favorite character ex equo with Buffy, and their relationship is one of the most interesting of the whole show.
If Faith isn't your favorite character then you are watching the show wrong ❤️. Only thing I'd disagree with is I think the Faith/Angel relationship is the better one.
same here!!! idky i love her character so much
Based. *Those* two episodes from S4 are among my favorites of the show
Faiths easily my favorite character on the show, definitely one of the most complex and well written.
Couldn't agree more.
I am so jazzed for next week's episode. Will be interesting to see how people take it. Loved this reaction!
I never thought of the comparison of Faith and Buffy to Sauske and Naruto but... yeah, that works. That really, really, works.
Always liked Faith jumping out of the van. It just felt natural/desperate
I may have already mentioned this when Mr. Trick first started on the show, but I got to see that actor in a production of Wicked, in Chicago. I didn't realize it was him at first, because my seats were way up in the nosebleed area, plus he had a costume on that concealed his face (I think), so all I knew at first was that his voice sounded so familiar to me and I couldn't think of from where. It was driving me nuts. I kept focusing in on his voice, and felt like I had heard it before, on a show, but had no idea where. So I looked up his name in the program and there was his picture, and I was like, "Holy crap! It's Mr. Trick! That's so cool! And so randomly weird and unexpected." So whenever I watch these episodes, I'm like, heeee... I saw him on stage. 😄
RIP Mr. Trick. 😉 "Oh no... this is no good at all."
The episode is titled Consequences. And BTVS as a show always deals with the consequences for the decisions their characters make (most of the time at least). This season is so good from start to finish.
Great reaction and great discussion. Also, I'd forgotten how great the scene with Angel and Faith is here. He's really good at connecting with people and if you enjoyed that, then you've had a taste of what the Angel series tone is. Hopefully you choose to try that, even if it means one week Buffy, one week Angel.
I can’t tell if he really thought Faith killing one man gave her a thirst for human life as if she was a vampire, OR he acted like they had that in common as reverse psychology because she would hear that and think “But I didn’t like it at all, I hated how it made me feel and I hate myself”. It’s plain as day that she regrets it immensely and it made her feel horrible, which is why she’s trying to do everything she can not to face it.
No no no, not one week Buffy there is still too much good Buffy ahead. Drink more coffee and do both at the same time.
@@borgtennis don’t worry, I don’t think that option won the poll, so think it’ll still be weekly Buffy.
Something that I don’t think is talked about much is that I feel like Faith has some self loathing, because obviously she doesn’t have any family or friends who supported or raised her growing up, and people can internalize that and something being wrong with them. Also Faith is someone who puts on a bad girl persona partially to help protect herself from being hurt, so her guilt is manifesting in a way that she’s starting to believe she might actually be a bad person, so she decides to embrace it as a way to protect herself and not feel pain. But she is a good person deep down so the feelings and contrasting emotions are messing with her head… and to think Eliza Dushku was only around 18 when she filmed this, these are a lot of a complex emotions, and she plays them really well for such a young age.
She was only 17 when she filmed this, was legally emancipated and was partying a lot. She has said since that she could relate to a lot of what Faith was going through at the time. (It was in a panel at a con, I can't remember exactly which one, she was sat next to Nick Brendon at the time.)
You all need to start watching Angel soon, as there’s a lot of crossover character archs, especially during the first few seasons. Love these reactions 😂
It's interesting when people see Willow crying as somehow selfish or possessive. She can feel bad about it. She even went off to cry alone and didn't say anything to anyone about it. Plus I think she partially was crying because she felt bad for Xander because of his choses in women
right?? i was definitely going to bring that up. he has a certain amount of bad luck that's exacerbated by his bad choices
Probably because of the borderline maybe even actually abusive relationship his parents have
Mikey is absolutely correct with the addiction allegory. If you look at Angel as a recovering alcoholic, it all falls in line with Faith's situation and more.
Also, gotta remember that Faith is a teenager. Some of her actions are how teenagers spiral after making mistakes
The Mayor Faith story line is great. We're all going to love this.
LOL, SAY MY LAST NAME RIGHT CHRIS!!!!
Ah, baby Welsey. What an arc you'll go on.
*SPOILERY COMMENT BELOW*
⇩
⇩
⇩
⇩
⇩
⇩
⇩
⇩
⇩
⇩
⇩
⇩
⇩
⇩
⇩
⇩
In my eyes, *Wes* went from being so annoying and my most despised character to easily transforming into my favorite by the end of *Angel.* And that's among a truly phenomenal ensemble.
im sorry but the way Pat resents the better written aspects and metaphors of the show is hilarious.
Pat: Now you want me to use my brain? How dare you!
Remember in the season 2 episode "Ted" when Buffy "killed" Ted, she immediately confessed to the police without hesitation because that's her personality, that's why she wanted to go to Giles ASAP. Faith hasn't had a support system for God knows how long, we don't know what sort of fucked up upbringing she's had, can you imagine the mental toll that can have on someone? (I'm not justifying her behaviour, just looking at it from a different perspective to help understand).
The reason why Buffy was so defiant in helping Faith is not only because she knows what it's like as she went through it before (Ted) but because she understood it was a complete accident.
The way I interrupted the scene between Xander and Faith was her way of "shutting him up" because she didn't wanna hear any of it as Giles said, she's still in denial. She doesn't want to accept what happened so she shuts everyone out.
Why she went to the Mayor? Well probably because everyone else around her either wants to detain her or tell her that what she did was wrong, so in her mind she probably thinks I might as well keep going on then if I'm the "bad" guy.
The conversation on the street about morality between Buffy and Faith was Faith basically saying she's above the human law BECAUSE she's the slayer, she should have special privilege as she's accounted for saving thousands of lives everyday but ridding the streets from vampires. Of course that doesn't make her right but I get where she's coming from. This is her way of rationalizing the mistake she made.
Faith is 1 of my favourite characters and I don't want it to seem like I'm excusing her actions but I'm just trying to give you a different perspective is all :)
We all make mistakes and sometimes we handle it very, very poorly. I'm very excited for the rest of the season!
Its been 3 seasons and Pat still cannot say Giles's Name right.
That's going to be funny when the Normies watch Season Five.
I notice that Rana says it too in the last video 😕
@@Madbandit77, I've seen season 5 But can't think what means by that. I'm thinking of season 6 where everyone has their minds erased by a certain person and the term Horny Giles comes up. I could never be a normie Id done beating Pat with a crow bar already over his Cersei love
Good discussion. That’s what this episode deserves.
Angel pointed out to Faith, made it more clear what her feelings were..that she is now flirting with embracing the power and darkness, so, she’s decided to go for it. Faith despises feeling weak, having to make amends, she wants none of it. She knows the Mayor has mysterious power, now she wants it too, to feel like being a powerful part of a winning team rather than the inferior member who is being disciplined and monitored.
Top 10 Sunnydale betrayals
I think Angel was reaching her honestly. Had Wesley not fucked it up, I think he could've gotten her to a place where she was able to admit what she did was wrong and try to process it and make amends.
Every time I watch the scene where Faith escapes from Wesley, I always wonder how come there is not a protocol when Slayers are potentially murdering people to use that compound from Helpless to make them easier to manage.
Also keep in mind that Buffy and Faith were being attacked nonstop in that alley with vamps jumping out at them left and right. That guy was truly in the wrong place at the wrong time. As for you guys comparing a slayer accidentally killing a civilian in the line of duty with other professions where it might also happen, law enforcement would be the closest analog but I actually think a slayers situation is a category onto itself. Being that they and the Watcher’s Council work outside the realm of what 90%? of the population is even aware of how can the average person put themselves into their shoes and judge them on pure conjecture?
A couple years ago, when deaths at the hands of the police were reaching a high with public outcry, and everyone turned into Monday morning quarterbacks, I recall hearing about a journalist who actually decided to see what went on during such a situation. He was lead through a law enforcement training course where he would have to make split second decisions concerning potential threats to his life and the lives of civilians. You see, the mmq’s would have you believe that you have all the time in the world to explore every option known to exist before making the “right” decision. And yet, when put to the test this journalist made the same sorts of choices that actual cops have made in the line of duty. People like to say that this cop or that cop had a choice in the amount of force used but so does the person their confronting has a choice not to be a threat or pose a danger to innocent lives or the lives of those that choose to protect as a means of making a living.
Love how the normies weren't fooled for a second by the mini Giles fakeout!
I appreciate you all discussing Xander's sexual assault, a lot of people kind of gloss over that plot point. I wish they'd have taken it more seriously on the show itself.
No one ever talks abouts it which is soo sad. Xanders been sa many times. Groomed, and the truama hes face and it's all ignored.
Yes! A monumental episode. Good stuff.
This one comes down to Faith pushing people away. She doesn’t want pity, and of course, she is considerably antisocial and definitely adverse to structure. Her past fucked her up, so her getting “high” off the violence and all that, etc… culminating into a troubled young person.
Great post-episode discussion!!
Faith is going to go through a very interesting arc from here on out. Lots of ups and downs. One of my fav characters to watch.
Ps, please react to angel 🙏🤞
Just to clarify... its literally NOT murder. It's manslaughter. It was accidental.
**Reads intro text**
Oh, so they accidentally re-watched "Go Fish"?
You know Angel had no control, while faith chose to do evil things
Faith's journey is still peak story telling for me, so they better watch Angel lol
Basically Buffy splits into two shows once Angel starts. Angel as a character also changes and becomes much more likable. I don't like Angel much on Buffy but I love him on his own series.
Faith and Wesley are my favorite character developments that originated from Buffy.
@@johnb2422 - Same. Love Angel on his own show, same for Wesley and Cordelia on his show. Before Joss Whedon destroyed Cordelia's character. lmao
Great guys…let’s just give up the surprise character arcs and appearances in future episodes and a whole other series before the Normies even check them out😂😂😂 Good Job. 🙄Spoilers🙄
I watched *Fubby,* then *Angel.* While I prefer the latter, it's incredible to see how pivotal the crossover stories truly are. In other words: _Gawd, I hope they watch _*_Angel!_*
Mark 18:10. I turned the, CC, back on because I couldn't understand what, Chris, was saying about, "100% right". But anyway, it shows, "[_____] off", whenever someone says, "fuck off"! But I wanted to point out that, that is the kind of context that I would like to see, Buffy & Faith, have! 😁😆😅
It's so fun seeing in the moment reactions to this stuff, especially after seeing both shows in their entirety and reading most of the subsequent comic seasons. I don't want to say too much to give potential spoilers, but I will say that I think the series deals with this Faith situation well. There will be a lot of dramatic highs and lows, but on a story and character level, so good.
Did you guys know Weasley was the one working with Loki in The Avengers? He was Thanos minion and also had a small appearance in Guardians V1. He was call The Other.
You guys appreciated how good Consequences is, as an episode of dramatic storytelling with strong maturing characters & complexities... Imagine how much more you might enjoy if you didn't cackle & whoop over the most serious, tender, & pointedly UN-funny bits.
Mark 17:56. That ship being there, to me, contradicts the whole image of, "Sunnydale", being the, "small town", they think of it as, just because the, City of Los Angeles, is so much wider! 🙄
In the 90's, the scene of Faith assaulting Xander was definitely considered Faith being shockingly abusive.
From the first time we see Allen, he is absolutely terrified of the Mayor. Just think about how much he was trembling when the Mayor was inspecting how clean his hands were.
Then he suggested postponing the ritual to make him invulnerable. I get the sense Allen knew what the Mayor was up to and too terrified to let him go through with it.
He apparently collected a lot of potentially incriminating information on the Mayor. I think he was hoping to get in contact with the slayers to share that information.
Hopefully he’s out of his misery at this point. Or perhaps his misery is now eternal. Not sure how the afterlife works on Buffy so he may not be in a better place now.
Can't believe how much of the Angel/Faith dialogue you left out 😮
Chris' face when Faith said "your boy" sent me to heaven and back
Honestly yall flipping on Faith is wild. She's still a teenager who grew up very hard and had to do a lot to make her way in the world. It makes sense that she would go back to her main instincts of protecting herself above everyone else. As a slayer, nothing can really hold her so there's more needed for someone as strong as her. Plus she's a supernatural creature that had power thrusted upon her and power given to someone who's never had it, grace is needed even though she murdered someone. She's scared and lost and confused but acting the opposite.
Her conversation with Angel was opening her up and you could see how vulnerable she was. It's easier to ignore your pain and issues than to address them. It's not wrong of Buffy to try and save the person she knew. It's not enabling to try and find her help cause with Joyce and the Scoobies, Buffy could easily be Faith.
"He worked for the Mayor so he was probably bad?"
Or, just maybe, he was there looking for the Slayers because he wanted to talk to them? But the reason he did that at night, after his long day working for the Mayor, and sought them out in a dark alley, is pretty obvious - HE DIDN'T WANT TO GET CAUGHT. What would happen if one of the Mayor's minions saw him talking to a Slayer? Pretty sure if he went to the school that word would get back to the Mayor.
Mark 28:51. BTY, FYI! Slayer abilities are connected to their mood, emotions, and mental health, and anything that has to do with their, state of mind. Just like with, Spider Man! 😎
Mark 17:?? "Behind Bars"? One of those places is where someone that's been a, high school senior, for six or so years, goes to get, Alcohol! 😆😅
Faith's decisions added to a life story without contention shows that having power, pride leads you to the dark side
3:57 This conversation becomes far more interesting if you replace Slayer with Police Officer.
if your friend isn't perfect and is going through something, just leave them. let them fight their demons alone and probably lose, but at least you'll feel better about yourself, right?
I haven't watched yet, but I've been meaning to comment on this for a while. The 'In the 90's' schtick is only going to be good until ep10 of season 4. After that you're 'In the noughties' (by air date).
Mark 3:03. Oh, and don't forget! He and Alyson, fell in love and got married, because of this series! 🤓
I don’t think this situation is actually an allegory for anything-unlike most of the supernatural elements in this show-it’s about the burden and responsibility that belongs to the Slayer. Buffy was thinking of quitting and fantasized often about being a normal girl, until Faith. Faith’s choices and ethics forced Buffy to realize what a slayer really means: a super hero who has more power than any other human and why that means she HAS to be the most ethical person in order to not go full evil. Faith made Buffy find what kind of Slayer she was and it crystallized her identity, which she keeps in her heart, moving forward.
Incredible post-show discussion; given where you are in the show. Way too much to come that will change minds also, full transparency, I am fully aware I can be biased against Willow and for Faith. For personal reasons my heart is fully reaching out for Faith; she is on a very dark path, completely in denial about what she did; comes with an abusive past and, at sixteen, does not believe anyone can be trusted. Her turning to the Mayor is completely believable and heart-breakingly real. kerk
Another point..it’s a luxury to have two slayers..another reason to rehabilitate a “slayer on the edge” is that unless the Watcher’s Council wants to execute a slayer in this circumstance and train up a brand new one, you have to “work with what you got”…
no witnesses other than vampires lmao till you remember how many times Buffy, Faith and the Scoobies are just casually walking down the street with crossbows and axes and swords lmao
Since we're coming up on the end of season 3, what's the plan going forward for when Angel starts? Are you watching Angel? Will it have its own slot? Are you following a guide for crossovers?
From Faith's perspective, this is how I see why she decided the Mayor was a better option than the Scoobies (whether wrong or right isn't the point for any points. Her reasoning is how I see she sees it):
Giles, nor Wesley, ever even bother trying to find Faith a decent place to live and Joyce invites her for dinner in _Faith, Hope and Trick_ only to see if she can take over for Buffy.
In _Faith, Hope and Trick,_ Xander and Willow only pretend to be friends with Faith because their friendship with Buffy is still rocky until the end of that episode. It is why they only treat Faith professionally in _Beauty and the Beasts_ and onward.
In _Homecoming,_ Xander and Willow ignore Faith during the dance and by doing so, Faith realizes they aren't her friends anymore by making sure to put Cordelia in the car Faith was supposed to be in to ignore their own guilt and thus leaving Faith alone and friendless at a school dance of a school she doesn't even go to.
Faith being upset about losing Xander and Willow as friends is why she is away from the group during _Band Candy._
In _Revelations,_ Xander attempted to use Faith as an assassin to kill Angel. Whether it was Faith's idea or not means little in terms of Xander not correcting her misconception as he asked, "Can I come?" (only after Giles is knocked out does he acknowledge [Willow and Buffy also chastise him for it] he should have tried to correct Faith's misconceptions when he had the chance as it is too late once Giles is unconscious and Faith sees it as confirmation of what she needs to do). Buffy is forced to step in the middle of Faith and Angel. And Faith emotionally distances herself from Buffy's friendship, which stepped up after Willow and Xander cut themselves off at the end of _Faith, Hope, and Trick._ Gwendolyn Post only stirred an already brewing pot of trouble. She didn't cause it. But her betrayal made things worse.
After that, Faith's distrust in the Scoobies as a whole is why she is absent for the episodes _Lovers Walk_ and _The Wish._
In _Amends,_ Faith attempts to give Buffy another chance and she views Buffy as blowing said chance when she views Buffy as abandoning her and her Christmas invite for babysitting Joyce duty to help Angel. Buffy not explaining and/or not allowing Faith to come along (Joyce should know not to step outside her home after dark or invite anyone in at this point) took a larger toll on the second chance Buffy didn't even realize Faith was giving her. The hurt Faith feels over this is why she is absent in _Gingerbread_ and _Helpless._
In _The Zeppo,_ Faith's revenge against Xander for using her as an assassin is kicking him out while also getting her itch scratched.
And the friendship in _Bad Girls_ is her revenge against Buffy for her real and perceived slights up to this point. She pretends to be Buffy's friend. Xander and Willow most likely giving her the idea. When this episode happens, Faith ends up needing real friendship, help, and support, and the Scooby Gang cannot offer any, which is why Buffy turns to Angel. The Scoobies have pushed her away enough to, from Faith's POV, not want to help her let alone be able to, thus they turn to Angel to help her (which was also a risk as Buffy was dating him and therefore Faith wouldn't be of a mind to trust him) but it seemed to be a start until Wesley screws it up.
All trust from Faith's perspective is now 100% gone and Faith decides The Mayor is the better option, through being in denial and not trusting The Scoobies. Going to him definitely isn't right, but she views it as her only option.
Mark 19:34. Ahem. Accept for any, cunnilingus, between Angel & Buffy, for others, that's a long gap between meals! 😁
There's a, "Dracula", sitcom in which he tells of a cousin that could only safely consume the blood of virgins, and the cousin moved to, California, and "nearly starved to death"! 😆😅😎
On the Watcher thing: The Watchers headquarters is in England, and as a result many of the high ranking members are English, but it is a global organization with members from lots of different countries. Buffy's first Watcher before Giles was an American.
I like Marketa and Rana sitting next to each other. When Faith started her lying stunt at 9:00 you can literally see both of their body languages shift to girl fight mode.
Mark 3:03. Rana! Back in the 1990s, I was a member of an on-line, fan club, did she call it? 🤔 (The owner that is. She was based in, London, England.) One of the members posted about how, he or she, had no problems with the fictional characters, "Spike & Buffy", touching each other, et cetera, despite their big age difference. No! What bothered that person, was that the actor, James Marsters, was in his, Forties, and SMG, wasn't! 😁
"Ironic, don't you think?" - Song Lyric.
SMG, as a teenager, won an, "Emmy Award", for playing older as, "Kendall Hart". But didn't get one for playing younger in this series! 🙄
This fun. You guys are fun. That's all. Thanks.
No sympathy for Faith from this group. She needs to take responsibility for what happened and how she has been acting. She is what Buffy could be if she didn't have her friends and family.
Mark 11:13? Aha! So that's it! It's been bothering me for years now, about who both versions of, "Sheldon Cooper", remind me of! 🤓
Great episode and great review
ANGEL: Beat me, sure. BUT TO DRAPE A NET ON ME?
-Mystery Science Theater 3000, PUMA MAN
Faith turns to the dark side. I loved that evolution of her from good to evil. ❤❤❤❤
Mark 0:54. Are all of you aware of, "That '80s Show"? 🤔 It didn't last long, probably because it didn't follow the parent sitcom's characters into the, 1980s, but instead had a whole new cast of different characters.
What annoyance factor that both sitcoms had in common, was that they exaggerated the importance of the fads and social trends, by making it seem like everyone followed them, and not everyone did! For example, people that wear hand-me-downs and second-hand clothing, will be out of fashion style. People in rural areas, including the small towns, could be behind be a decade or so. 😒😏
I think because Buffy went through something similar with Ted who turned out to be a robot, buffy doesn't want to give up on faith. She's not impartial in this because she was growing close with faith and with faith could be normal because they had the same destiny in terms of being a slayer. They are equals in terms of physical strength. Buffy was there and knows it was an accident she knows faith wasn't maliciously trying to hurt the guy. Faith is similar to angel in that way so of course buffy doesnt want to give up on her.
Mark 25:25. Hmm. Remember, "Angel", the upcoming, for your group, spin-off series? I have yet to see a group place bets, about which cast members, follow him over to his own show. But anyway, when discussing possible character deaths, as you are now, you might want to consider the options about who's stays and who goes. (Though I already told you about, Cordelia Chase. 😁 Because I didn't want, Rana and Marketa, to be sad.)
Your viewing experience will be quite different though! Because of a feud with, Joss Whedon, someone in charge of such things, spitefully cancelled both, "Firefly" that was on, "Fox", and "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", that was on, "The WB". He surrendered to save, "Angel"! But we viewers at home, wondered about the fate of, Buffy & Friends! Luckily for us, "UPN, saved the show, and gave us two more seasons worth, before it had to continue on as a, comic book series! Series have made the transition from, Radio to Television, such as, "Gunsmoke". This is the first one to make the transition from, movie to television series to comic book series! 😎
There were a lot of shows that jumped networks back then!
"Medium", from, "NBC" to "CBS"!
"Ghost Whisperer", from "CBS" to "The WB"!
"Clueless", from "ABC" to "UPN"!
"Sabrina the Teenage Witch", from "ABC", to "The WB"!
Cher & Sabrina, met each other, during a crossover, before the network jumping happened. But when, Cher's sitcom was cancelled, she didn't end up playing a different character in, Sabrina's show, as some of the others did.
Cher, Sabrina & the Halliwell Sisters, have the casting oddity of, one actor becoming the recast or replacement actor, to play the father in each show!
"The WB", had this fun network promotion commercial, that features most of their fictional characters interacting with each other in a, dance club setting, with a big network logo as the major set piece.
In it, you get to see, Angel & Phoebe Halliwell, wanting to flirt as they walk by each other, while being pulled away by others with them! After, "BtVS", was dropped, and "StTW", was picked up, Buffy & Friends, got removed from that fun, and Sabrina & Friends, replaced them!
That “EQUALITY BITCH!” 🤣🤣
I think Consequences was a brilliant, but disturbing episode. Even though Xander had lost his virginity in The Zeppo, we still see his Innocence here where Faith sexually assaults him, and tries to choke him to death. The juxtaposition here is brilliant writing where Faith is the one with power, and Xander is the helpless innocent, showing that sexual assault and murder are crimes of power over the vulnerable. Brilliant writing again. She has the power 'I see, I want, I take' Xander proves here his is still somewhat innocent, even though in The Zeppo he became more grown up and adult. An interesting line is drawn here with later episodes, as Faith has a soul and is deliberately acting like this in a fully conscious way. It shows here that sexual assault and murder are crimes of power over the innocent and vulnerable irrespective. Faith is now 'drunk' on power, and just thinks she can do what she wants to anyone, and there will be no Consequences! Teaming up with the Mayor catapults the show into the stratosphere, the build up from now until the two part Finale is totally brilliant.
Buffy is a Slayer as well and is being empathetic. It says everything about how good of a person Buffy is and not anything about Faith. Buffy killed a robot she thought was a person let us not forget. Faith is the only person on the planet who knows anything about what it is like to be a Slayer. Faith has been through a lot of trauma before this and hasn't worked out any of it. Not justifying anything but saying she has been losing her battle with darkness for a bit.
Not all of you can do nuance.
Mark 28:48. You weren't, "cut", or, "bleeped"! 😁
They mention it being unusual that he leaves a paper trail. They are implying that he was looking to turn on the mayor. Though it's ambiguous if the mayor figured that out or not.
Thank you for discussing Xander SA. It never talked about. I'd like to add what Giles said. Faith is indenial she is literally trying to gaslight herself and other about how she feels about the death.
Five by five
I do see now how the Faith story can be compared to drug addiction. Without giving too many spoilers in the latter seasons and shows it lines up a lot better that way.
if you liked that angel scene, thats a pretty good example of angel the series, and I highly recommend it if youre interested in seeing faiths arc too
Why do they think the Mayor is immortal 'for 30 days'? where did they come up with the 30 days info?
Mark 15:25. Clever! Except that I almost ignored it twice, thinking it was just another advertisement! 😁
Xander & Faith? Is that the, "sexual assault", that your description refers to? 🤔. Unless she reeked of something that I'm allergic to, I wouldn't reject her sexual advances, so I never thought of it as being such. 🤔😏😒
Dope episode.
Mark 2:40? "The More You Know 🌈⭐"? 🤔. I'll see that and raise it with a, "And knowing is half the battle! G. I. Joe! Go, Joe! A Real American Hero! G. I. Joe!" I call! 😎