As a teen I had the Mentzer Red, Blue, Teal, Black, and Gold books & boxes. My brothers, friends, and I had 2 fantastic Summers filled with D&D, MTV, pizza, and soda. I foolishly gave my Mentzer cache away when AD&D 2E came because my teenaged brain thought, "Out with old, in with the new". Ugh, I wish had kept those boxes.
@@BW022: You know, I almost took the plunge and purchased several Meltzer BECMI boxes many moons ago, but concluded that it would only be for the sake of nostalgia. Fiscally speaking, I’m a pragmatic man, so it’s hard for me to justify their prices for a game I don’t believe I would play.
Born in 1974. First real experience was a friend (1986) using his older brother’s copy of Holmes. I couldn’t grab recent iterations because my folks….it was “the devil’s game”. I bought, during the Mentzer era, copies of B/X from a friend. Thankful, but still wishing and envious of the Mentzer rules. Because when you’re a kid ya think that newer is better. So when the RC was released, I finally felt I had what I wanted. Many years later I realized B/X structure was better. Even after falling in love with OD&D and clones, B/X is always just ‘ready to go’, no matter what! I’m thankful for both LL and especially OSE. But, having just and only my many copies of B/X…. I’m comforted. Heheh! Great presentation and overview in your vid!
Mach, thanks sir! The LL and OSE books in a lot of ways kept TSR B/X alive in that it made so many people want to know what inspired them. There is definitely something about those red and blue books that just hits all of the right beats at the right levels. I have a solo series I am currently polling to set up, which will use Worlds Without Number which itself is a system that started in BX and moved in a wholly different direction. I think the many forms of BX is a testament to the strength of that foundational game system.
Never stopped playing BECMI. Gave up giving hasbro a chance when they tanked 3e, and went back to TSR. Glad to see the rest of you are catching up and going to play actual D&D instead.
I thought that there were some interesting design choices in third, and it allowed me to introduce some to the game that were otherwise not interested. Love BX, and played it since 1984, but don’t feel the same about other editions. 3.0 also brought the OGL which made the OSR (and BX) available to new generations. I also don’t believe BECMI is better than BX. It stretches out a lot of the same content over more levels. BX covers what in my opinion are the best levels for campaigns. To each their own.
Couldn't agree more. I started with the original boxed Basic set, which also came with Keep on the Borderlands. Looking back, there was something true and pure about my group's experience - the power and joy of the imagination was palpable, before anyone had the benefit of hindsight. I remember feeling a similar way when playing early computer games such as Wizardry. Thanks for the great video!
I just played a short adventure with some friends online. It was my first time playing since about 1992. The GM used an OSR game. It was an OSE adventure with a different retro clone for the rules. We had an epic moment when the wizard who had already cast his one spell decided to come out of cover and dealt the killing blow on the big bad. The wizard ended up being the sole survivor. It was a blast. I would kind of like to do Star Frontiers now. It has a rule set that really feels like old pulp ray gun science fiction.
Clay, I haven’t tried Star Frontiers, but if you wanted a free OSR option that is built on the same mechanical skeleton as OSE, you could give Stars Without Number a shot. It is very much in the BX in space vein. I think you could get the experience you are looking for, and it might even be an easier sell to the others since it is free and it plays similar to a game they know.
I got the BX stuff for Christmas in 1981, but like you joined an AD&D (1e) group and played that more. That said, I learned a lot from these sets!!! What I like about this game more than anything is that there are more mechanics (processes) to guide a DM/Players through a game rather than rules to look up. For example, there are town, hex crawl, dungeon crawl, encounter, and combat mechanics (where new versions of D&D really only have combat mechanics and possibly skill challenge mechanics, which I don't like). I learned everything I need to know about designing and running sandbox from Keep (base town, rumors, adventure sites) and Isle (hex crawl). It is much easier to DM because you don't have to continually look up rules for a bazillion character classes and situations, and it doesn't require DMs to be fantasy novelists to devise their own adventures. Instead the DM provides the setting in which the players provide the protagonists, with rulings and die rolls to determine how their problem solving efforts work out. It is super simple to be a DM and player, yet requires far more creativity to succeed at both. Most importantly, I think that because the characters are so weak in these old games, it is much easier to create a feeling of wander, awe and fear in the players as they sit at the table!!!......The things I did not and do not like include the combat tables/THACO associated with descending armor class (terrible!) but it is easily fixable by playing a newer version of the game like OSE (or better yet, Dolmenwood). I also wish that the mechanics were better defined in some appendix, because I find in OSE/Dolmenwood and Gonnerman's Basic Fantasy RPG that sometimes you have to compile them yourself if you don't want to be turning pages all the time just to run a hex crawl (with camping) or dungeon crawl or combat mechanic...I especially like Dolmenwood because it has optional rules that can be used to solve almost any problem that Gygax brings up (but does not provide a good solution for) in the 1979 AD&D DM Guide, even though that is an awesome book too!!!! I think you can learn everything you need to know about D&D from these books and today's streamlined clones!!!!
Sometimes change is not improvement… pretty close to a peak of design right out of the gates 😀. I like trying all sorts of games, but I always come back to my earlier editions.
@@booksbricksandboards783 It has nothing to do with nostalgia for me. It has to do with what kind of feelings the game creates in the moment, whether you have played it for or not. I am all for new things, and I played 5e for about 2 years or so. It did not make me afraid, and it felt like I was too powerful. As a DM I found it overwhelming because it is too player centric; that is, too many player options to track, not enough DM tools to manage the game. Even when I tried to limit the player options, there was always some stupid power that would catch me by surprise. Chris Perkins's translation of Tomb of Horrors for 5e is utterly valueless when a monk can walk on the walls and ceiling and avoid all the traps, or other races can fly and do that same. Absolutely nerfs the dungeon!!! How is that going to create fear?
@@booksbricksandboards783 I actually was easily able to outsmart them with one of my homebrews using 5e. I simply gave them a "go kill the rats in my basement" cliche first quest with a wicked twist. They found the source of the rats was a hole in the wall in a jail cell in a room connected to a tunnel under the city, and they were getting in through there. The problem was that the cell door was locked and the bars were just so people could not get in but the rats could get out. The hole was a never-ending spawn. So like superhero dummies with no tactics they charged in the room, and were quickly surrounded while more rats kept coming out until someone realized they needed to plug the hole to solve the problem. Two characters had to be dragged out unconscious as they fled and came back later. In the middle of it, one of the players desperately exclaimed, "I don't want to die in these rats!!!" The bad thing was they didn;t learn a thing form that encounter, and the next session I did the same thing except with wolves, and all they had to do was go across a small river and climb a cliff to escape. Of course a couple lingered and got surrounded and mutilated...It is so easy to trick 5e players. :/
They have really become a work of art over time. Ironic, because they “borrowed” a lot of the original art, tracing comic frames, and over time that style became iconic. Love the old stuff.
I am on OSE and OSE Advanced, but have also gone all the way back to OD&D + Chainmail. Holmes Basic, Moldvay Basic, and Cook Expert are great resources too. There is very little I find of use in AD&D besides all the great tables in the 1st edition DMG. Anyone playing stuff from after 1981 you are missing out.
I think that one of the most brilliant aspects of BX (the system itself, before talking clones) is that it is the simplest, fully functional realization of the key components of D&D. That makes it an amazing starting point (or end point to keep the game fast and simple) for anything you want to bolt onto it. I had all the 1st edition books, and while I loved the idea of a dedicated Barbarian or Cavalier class, the implementation of it, when also including the bloat already in that system, made it less satisfying. You look at how the same thing was handled in OSE advanced, and it just works much better. I will say if I ever play any version of AD&D it is always going to be Hyperborea at this point. Jeff has really taken the rules and cleaned them up to the point they are much more functional and removed some bloat, while keeping some of the more useful complexity. It is a great system as well.
Solid video, Sir 🤘 I think the point made, 16:40 into the video, is something modern designers don't seem to get. They try to come up with a solution to govern everything with the game mechanics, and as a result, bury the imagination and excitement factor, the fun.
Thanks! Yes there is a balance that has to be there, with no rules it isn’t a game. With rules for everything it is no longer roleplaying. We have RPG’s in both extremes now, but few hit the sweet spot that B/X did!
@@booksbricksandboards783 "and as a result, bury the imagination and excitement factor, the fun" So true. Also when you have more rules you can slow play down to a crawl which is really distracting when you're in a situation where play should be fast paced (like combat). What Basic D&D encouraged was that is was good for the DM to rule things on the fly and let the game flow. AD&D had rules for everything because when it was written TSRs biggest revenue stream was D&D tournaments at conventions. They wanted solid, written rules for every situation. Having simple mechanics you can use for every situation is great. But having rules for every situation tends to grind the game down and stifle creativity.
@@EpicEmpires-pb7zv 100%. I can enjoy a "simulationist" style, my group has been playing Pathfinder 2e for 3 years now actually, but the fun there is different than the fun in a more "pure" system. In Pathfinder the group finds its fun in the nuance of the character creation and executing a well planned "build", at the table it is much more "well let's look and see what our construction can do". In an old school, or old school inspired game, the fun is in the reactive play, coming up with crazy plans on the fly, and seeing what you can do to avoid imminent death... removing dice altogether whenever possible. I have inserted this mindset into my Pathfinder game, allowing them to attempt some different maneuvers that really have no analogous mechanic in the game, and THOSE have been some of the most fun moments in the campaign. I don't want to hate on one style or the other, but as for me, my heart is always going to be in the old school style.
@@booksbricksandboards783 The funniest part about complex mechanics is that a game designer is generally going to try to give a player between 45% and 80% chance of doing anything with the sweet spot being between 60% and 70%. That's where it feels like a challenge but you still have a satisfying rate of success (you're not missing all the time). You really don't need complex mechanics to tell a player to roll 65% on percentile dice or 8 or more on a d20...which is pretty much what's going to happen with well designed, crunchy rules anyway. I'm not bagging any rules system either. If you're having fun playing the way you're playing then mission accomplished. It's a game and the objective is to have fun.
@@EpicEmpires-pb7zv I think you pretty well nailed it. Savage Worlds is a good example. Target Number is almost always 4. Players roll a D6 plus a skill die (whatever their skill is d4,d8, etc), and pick the best (max number explodes). That leaves everyone with a greater than 50% of succeeding in most tasks (even that they are unskilled in). It encourages players to try a little more adventurous tactics, which makes for a more memorable game in my opinion.
Lol. The death stamps are kind of a looming threat. They don’t get used often (except when I play a DCC funnel), but I will occasionally idly say,”have you guys seen my stamp… I know it was around here somewhere.” Always gets a good reaction from the players.
I can see the first home made map my neighbor made in my mind. Taking my fighter and mage out to explore the ruins and bringing home some treasure. Lots of good memories there!
Thanks! I find that people’s reasons for not wanting to try older systems stem from two places. 1) they have an assumption that newer is always better. 2) they have a distinct lack of knowledge about the system, and fill the void with preconceived notions that don’t align with the actual system. When we can actually get someone to the table to try these games, I find that they almost always enjoy them more than expected.
I agree, but one thing that coincides with point 2 : Moldvay Basic also kept the GAME aspect of role playing game. There were actual codified rules regarding dungeon exploration. You move five, rest one then your torch burns out or your lantern ticks down. Move five, rest one; that's one hour of exploration. It's one of the reasons I enjoy Darkest Dungeons; torchlight matters. How many are left? Do you press on or head back to town and get resupplied?
@@booksbricksandboards783 Absolutely. I adore OSE most because of one special feature : Their classes are condensed to those one to two page layouts. If I open the book to Ranger, all of the Ranger is right there in front of me. If there were one OSR related ask I could have, it would be that every class is laid out so simply.
YES the Rules Cyclopedia is excellent! It has a little bit rougher thieves skill progression (Companion and Masters just kind stretched out what you used to get by end of Expert set), but it is a great compilation! It also has the Mystic (monk) and full skill and weapon prof optional rules. I have the PDF and used to own the physical book.
OSE of course has very much brought this version of the rules back into the spotlight. We're currently on a C&C kick with occasional digressions to DCC, but we always revert to OSE (B/X) at some point. It's my favorite version of the game to run, hands-down.
Yeah, the nice thing for me about OSE is that I can convince players to try it, because “look it is beautifully made, quick simple rules!” Some of those would never have agreed to play BX just because of the assumption of new=better. It really has opened up BX to a new audience, much to the joy of many old DM’s I would imagine! Also, C&C is very cool. I picked up the first printing DIRT cheap at Gen Con the year after it released (no Keeper Guide at the time), after talking to whichever of the Trolls was manning the booth for 40 minutes on two occasions. He talked about it having Gary’s seal of approval and that was good enough for me! Unfortunately I did not even have a group to play it at the time and eventually sold those copies.
Yeah, I cut my teeth on B/X back in 1981. Guess what? We're STILL playing it in my group! lol :-) We play an amalgam of B/X and AD&D 1e... which is sort of what OSE Advanced Fantasy is already, so that is what I would probably grab today if I didn't already own everything I will ever need to play. :-)
@@booksbricksandboards783 Amen! I feel really fortunate to have it still going. There are only two of us from the original, original group left, but that still counts! lol :-)
@@KabukiKid I'd count it. I have split my Covid group into two different groups now, with 3 in one and 4 in the other. So from my Covid 9, I still have 7. That is pretty good retention!
Completely agree with everything you said here. My own game is rooted in b/x with DM judgment calls outweighing the need for additional rules in most cases and always used when its an on the fly situation to keep the game flowing. I grew very tired of people bogging down my games with having to dig through rule books for an obscure line that is on page 345 of the twelfth book, in a slightly different edition.... For 30 years now, we go back to the DM 's word being final and try to remember its a big game of make believe. Two rulebooks is enough.
I wonder why Star Frontiers used a different system? I love that world and it's setting. I played a Savage Worlds version, but would really like to play it again with it's original rule set.
Everyone should experience the original concept for D&D. I'm currently in love with Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea And Dungeon Crawl Classics After growing up on 3.5 and jumping on the 5E train harder than anyone else in my group since it was D&DNext, running, and playing it up until a couple years ago... I was disappointed and losing interest in the hobby. It took a documentary on Old School D&D to inspire me to check out these older versions of the system, which set off a chain of events that made love the older style of play and take interest in the OSR. Saved my hobby Saved my table.
Appreciate it! I am a child of the early 80’s so that is where my roots are at. I’m guilty of the wandering eye with RPG’s as you can see from my shelf, but I always reserve the fondest memories for B/X and it’s variants!
Great rundown! My first role playing game was Basic D&D back when it first came out in 1981. We ended up shifting to AD&D first edition because Expert rules weren't available then and Basic only went to level 3. That's a shame in hindsight because Basic/expert D&D is a much more DM friendly ruleset that encourages fun, loose play. The growing number of successful games trying to capture that B/X fun feel demonstrates just how great this ruleset was. d20 roll under tip. Descending armor class in Basic D&D is really close to a much more elegant combat system. If you add 2 to descending armor class you get the number you need to hit on a d20 if you roll that number or LESS (a d20 roll under instead of the standard d20 roll over system). The to hit roll is the same for all human classes level 1-3 in Basic D&D so no need for a table or THAC0 if you use d20 roll under. Just add 2 to the armor class add your attribute stat and roll under.
Great insights on a subtle improvement to the attack roll, we all had hacks of some sort for the game which was part of the fun in the day! Thanks for watching and hope you get lots of gaming at your table today!
@@booksbricksandboards783 Back in the early 80s there were a lot fewer choices and we didn't really love any of the systems. We experimented with our own rules and even played a couple of sessions with no rules which worked surprisingly well. The advantage of a roll under system is any adds add to the roll you need to succeed. So if you start with a descending armor class of 10 and need to roll 10 or less to hit...and then you add a +2 modifier...you need 12 to hit. You and the GM know what you need before you roll. This is what I call a "transparent" system. There's no mystery to it. That makes it more practical for the GM to adjust on the fly. Some players like the mystique of not being sure what their chances are though. Also with a d20 roll under you halve the roll you need to make, multiply by 10 and that's your percentage chance of success. So in the example above where you need to roll a 12 or less to hit that's a 60% chance. 12 divided by 2 = 6 x 10 = 60%. Personally I use a d10 roll under system because it is literally 100% intuitive. If you need to roll a 2 or less that's a 20% chance, if you need to roll a 6 or less that's a 60% chance. This is the simplest system for a GM and any game system can be adapted to percentages.
@@EpicEmpires-pb7zv Absolutely. I used a similar D10 roll under system with a home brew supers game I ran. There were Marvel Supers trading cards (not a game, just cards) that had stats for all the heroes and villain, rated 1-10. I took the stats presented and we ran several sessions off of those trading cards, and to be honest... Probably had as much fun as we did with the FASERIP TSR Marvel game. The Black Hack and Sharp Swords and Sinister Spells both have great roll under systems in rules lite shells as well.
That was actually not Swords & Wizardry, but Swords & Wizardry Complete. I know that the original S&W was based upon OD&D but the Complete edition sure seems to share a lot of BX DNA. I could definitely be wrong about that however. Thanks for watching!
Well, if you like Dungeon Crawl Classics, my favorite version of it is getting a full release in the next couple months. X Crawl Classics is Running Man meets American Gladiators by way of the Lord of the Rings.
I’d agree with that mostly. I think the thief loses SOME of their niche protection in two ways. 1) wizards have invisibility and knock as spells (limited uses, and requires leveling). 2) their success chances start low enough that a lot of their value is in trial error/absorbing traps. That said, thieves level up faster and once they hit 6th level or so, they really start to add some great utility.
@booksbricksandboards783 Good point about magic users and thieves, I've noticed that myself. On a related note the YT channel "Daddy Rolled a One" does a great job going over the history of vintage D&D and it's classes etc. He mentioned in one video that the 1st D&D thieves were actually based on the magic user "chassis" which makes sense and maybe explains their ability to eventually read magic and cast from scrolls. And of course The Grey Mouser was formerly a wizards apprentice before he embarked on his adventuring/theiving career with Fafrd.
@@michaelmorrissey8983 I think your last point pretty much nails it. AD&D thieves were very much Gray Mouser idolizers. To be fair though, the Mouser would never have died to a 1 Hit Die monster. He also succeeded at his thief ability checks more than they did... Except when he was drinking, then all bets were off! :)
Thank you for this . I am 3rd edition DM since 2008 and i was never impressed with 5e or whatever Tome,s of horror WOTC and Hasbro want to sell . I been looking into OSE and becmi for the past few weeks .
You are very welcome. BX is a clean system, and it is VERY well supported, both with classic material and new material. If one wants an old school game, that would be an excellent starting point. Old School Essentials is 100% true to the source, but uses a much better layout.
My first books I owned were actually the 1st edition books, given by a relative that moved on to other hobbies. Then when my neighbor switched to 2nd edition he gave me his basic, expert and companion boxes that we played, man I wish I still had those. First game I ran was 2nd edition, and it really felt like a whole new animal. Little did I know how much I should have appreciated those boxes. Wasn’t until a buddy picked up the Rules Cyclopedia from Wargames West that I really saw the appeal of a game that required so little supplementation to make it good (that is also the first time I saw the Mystic, because I never had the Masters set). Ah, good times!
Lol. Good choice! I left RPG’s for about 8 years and started again in 2020. First game I ran was a full campaign in Old School Essentials, with a Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea Thief because I felt like the power creep helped keep him closer to the other classes. We played through the B1-B9 Into Adventure TSR module compilation, up until they altered the story enough that it became distinctly home brewed after about 9 sessions. 😉
It's not about is BECMI any good, it's about how D&D has been more about make the player spend spend spend since 2nd edition. Basic/Expert is as good as AD&D, but the game has lost it's way ever since AD&D.
I agree with this regarding “official” D&D products. With the different variations of “inspired by the mechanics of” products, I think that there are several games that took the ball WoTC dropped and ran with it. Hyperborea, Castles & Crusades and Dungeon Crawl Classics all feel like logical successors to the early editions, just without the name. Thanks for watching!
Grew up with 2E AD&D and been away from TTRPGs since the 90s until a few months ago. Getting back into it and learning 5E, your statement on how fleshing out crunchier rules, in many ways, "imprisons" the player and GM. I'm still playing 5E as it is completely new to me, but I've also been acquiring OSE stuff because it is really appealing.
As a teen I had the Mentzer Red, Blue, Teal, Black, and Gold books & boxes. My brothers, friends, and I had 2 fantastic Summers filled with D&D, MTV, pizza, and soda. I foolishly gave my Mentzer cache away when AD&D 2E came because my teenaged brain thought, "Out with old, in with the new". Ugh, I wish had kept those boxes.
Man does that sound familiar! You know, most of my fondest RPG memories come from those Basic and Expert Mentzer boxes.
I hung on to mine until the early 90's when I gave them to my oldest son along with my top secret game and he promptly sold them to somebody else.
You can buy them online. :-)
@@BW022: You know, I almost took the plunge and purchased several Meltzer BECMI boxes many moons ago, but concluded that it would only be for the sake of nostalgia. Fiscally speaking, I’m a pragmatic man, so it’s hard for me to justify their prices for a game I don’t believe I would play.
Born in 1974. First real experience was a friend (1986) using his older brother’s copy of Holmes. I couldn’t grab recent iterations because my folks….it was “the devil’s game”.
I bought, during the Mentzer era, copies of B/X from a friend. Thankful, but still wishing and envious of the Mentzer rules. Because when you’re a kid ya think that newer is better.
So when the RC was released, I finally felt I had what I wanted.
Many years later I realized B/X structure was better.
Even after falling in love with OD&D and clones, B/X is always just ‘ready to go’, no matter what!
I’m thankful for both LL and especially OSE. But, having just and only my many copies of B/X…. I’m comforted. Heheh!
Great presentation and overview in your vid!
Mach, thanks sir! The LL and OSE books in a lot of ways kept TSR B/X alive in that it made so many people want to know what inspired them. There is definitely something about those red and blue books that just hits all of the right beats at the right levels. I have a solo series I am currently polling to set up, which will use Worlds Without Number which itself is a system that started in BX and moved in a wholly different direction. I think the many forms of BX is a testament to the strength of that foundational game system.
Never stopped playing BECMI. Gave up giving hasbro a chance when they tanked 3e, and went back to TSR. Glad to see the rest of you are catching up and going to play actual D&D instead.
I thought that there were some interesting design choices in third, and it allowed me to introduce some to the game that were otherwise not interested. Love BX, and played it since 1984, but don’t feel the same about other editions. 3.0 also brought the OGL which made the OSR (and BX) available to new generations. I also don’t believe BECMI is better than BX. It stretches out a lot of the same content over more levels. BX covers what in my opinion are the best levels for campaigns. To each their own.
Couldn't agree more. I started with the original boxed Basic set, which also came with Keep on the Borderlands. Looking back, there was something true and pure about my group's experience - the power and joy of the imagination was palpable, before anyone had the benefit of hindsight. I remember feeling a similar way when playing early computer games such as Wizardry. Thanks for the great video!
Anything that can transport us back to that “first” aha moment of gaming, is well worth revisiting! Thanks for watching.
I just played a short adventure with some friends online. It was my first time playing since about 1992. The GM used an OSR game. It was an OSE adventure with a different retro clone for the rules. We had an epic moment when the wizard who had already cast his one spell decided to come out of cover and dealt the killing blow on the big bad. The wizard ended up being the sole survivor. It was a blast. I would kind of like to do Star Frontiers now. It has a rule set that really feels like old pulp ray gun science fiction.
Clay, I haven’t tried Star Frontiers, but if you wanted a free OSR option that is built on the same mechanical skeleton as OSE, you could give Stars Without Number a shot. It is very much in the BX in space vein. I think you could get the experience you are looking for, and it might even be an easier sell to the others since it is free and it plays similar to a game they know.
I got the BX stuff for Christmas in 1981, but like you joined an AD&D (1e) group and played that more. That said, I learned a lot from these sets!!! What I like about this game more than anything is that there are more mechanics (processes) to guide a DM/Players through a game rather than rules to look up. For example, there are town, hex crawl, dungeon crawl, encounter, and combat mechanics (where new versions of D&D really only have combat mechanics and possibly skill challenge mechanics, which I don't like). I learned everything I need to know about designing and running sandbox from Keep (base town, rumors, adventure sites) and Isle (hex crawl). It is much easier to DM because you don't have to continually look up rules for a bazillion character classes and situations, and it doesn't require DMs to be fantasy novelists to devise their own adventures. Instead the DM provides the setting in which the players provide the protagonists, with rulings and die rolls to determine how their problem solving efforts work out. It is super simple to be a DM and player, yet requires far more creativity to succeed at both. Most importantly, I think that because the characters are so weak in these old games, it is much easier to create a feeling of wander, awe and fear in the players as they sit at the table!!!......The things I did not and do not like include the combat tables/THACO associated with descending armor class (terrible!) but it is easily fixable by playing a newer version of the game like OSE (or better yet, Dolmenwood). I also wish that the mechanics were better defined in some appendix, because I find in OSE/Dolmenwood and Gonnerman's Basic Fantasy RPG that sometimes you have to compile them yourself if you don't want to be turning pages all the time just to run a hex crawl (with camping) or dungeon crawl or combat mechanic...I especially like Dolmenwood because it has optional rules that can be used to solve almost any problem that Gygax brings up (but does not provide a good solution for) in the 1979 AD&D DM Guide, even though that is an awesome book too!!!! I think you can learn everything you need to know about D&D from these books and today's streamlined clones!!!!
Sometimes change is not improvement… pretty close to a peak of design right out of the gates 😀. I like trying all sorts of games, but I always come back to my earlier editions.
@@booksbricksandboards783 It has nothing to do with nostalgia for me. It has to do with what kind of feelings the game creates in the moment, whether you have played it for or not. I am all for new things, and I played 5e for about 2 years or so. It did not make me afraid, and it felt like I was too powerful. As a DM I found it overwhelming because it is too player centric; that is, too many player options to track, not enough DM tools to manage the game. Even when I tried to limit the player options, there was always some stupid power that would catch me by surprise. Chris Perkins's translation of Tomb of Horrors for 5e is utterly valueless when a monk can walk on the walls and ceiling and avoid all the traps, or other races can fly and do that same. Absolutely nerfs the dungeon!!! How is that going to create fear?
lol. Send them on a Dungeon Crawl Classics funnel. That will solve your “invulnerability” problem 😀
@@booksbricksandboards783 I actually was easily able to outsmart them with one of my homebrews using 5e. I simply gave them a "go kill the rats in my basement" cliche first quest with a wicked twist. They found the source of the rats was a hole in the wall in a jail cell in a room connected to a tunnel under the city, and they were getting in through there. The problem was that the cell door was locked and the bars were just so people could not get in but the rats could get out. The hole was a never-ending spawn. So like superhero dummies with no tactics they charged in the room, and were quickly surrounded while more rats kept coming out until someone realized they needed to plug the hole to solve the problem. Two characters had to be dragged out unconscious as they fled and came back later. In the middle of it, one of the players desperately exclaimed, "I don't want to die in these rats!!!" The bad thing was they didn;t learn a thing form that encounter, and the next session I did the same thing except with wolves, and all they had to do was go across a small river and climb a cliff to escape. Of course a couple lingered and got surrounded and mutilated...It is so easy to trick 5e players. :/
An interesting trick for the rat encounter is to make one a were rat. Nobody considers the were rat😀
Love these books. Have a 1st printing of the basic book framed on my wall.
They have really become a work of art over time. Ironic, because they “borrowed” a lot of the original art, tracing comic frames, and over time that style became iconic. Love the old stuff.
I am on OSE and OSE Advanced, but have also gone all the way back to OD&D + Chainmail. Holmes Basic, Moldvay Basic, and Cook Expert are great resources too. There is very little I find of use in AD&D besides all the great tables in the 1st edition DMG. Anyone playing stuff from after 1981 you are missing out.
I think that one of the most brilliant aspects of BX (the system itself, before talking clones) is that it is the simplest, fully functional realization of the key components of D&D. That makes it an amazing starting point (or end point to keep the game fast and simple) for anything you want to bolt onto it. I had all the 1st edition books, and while I loved the idea of a dedicated Barbarian or Cavalier class, the implementation of it, when also including the bloat already in that system, made it less satisfying. You look at how the same thing was handled in OSE advanced, and it just works much better. I will say if I ever play any version of AD&D it is always going to be Hyperborea at this point. Jeff has really taken the rules and cleaned them up to the point they are much more functional and removed some bloat, while keeping some of the more useful complexity. It is a great system as well.
Solid video, Sir 🤘
I think the point made, 16:40 into the video, is something modern designers don't seem to get. They try to come up with a solution to govern everything with the game mechanics, and as a result, bury the imagination and excitement factor, the fun.
Thanks! Yes there is a balance that has to be there, with no rules it isn’t a game. With rules for everything it is no longer roleplaying. We have RPG’s in both extremes now, but few hit the sweet spot that B/X did!
@@booksbricksandboards783 "and as a result, bury the imagination and excitement factor, the fun" So true. Also when you have more rules you can slow play down to a crawl which is really distracting when you're in a situation where play should be fast paced (like combat).
What Basic D&D encouraged was that is was good for the DM to rule things on the fly and let the game flow. AD&D had rules for everything because when it was written TSRs biggest revenue stream was D&D tournaments at conventions. They wanted solid, written rules for every situation.
Having simple mechanics you can use for every situation is great. But having rules for every situation tends to grind the game down and stifle creativity.
@@EpicEmpires-pb7zv 100%. I can enjoy a "simulationist" style, my group has been playing Pathfinder 2e for 3 years now actually, but the fun there is different than the fun in a more "pure" system. In Pathfinder the group finds its fun in the nuance of the character creation and executing a well planned "build", at the table it is much more "well let's look and see what our construction can do". In an old school, or old school inspired game, the fun is in the reactive play, coming up with crazy plans on the fly, and seeing what you can do to avoid imminent death... removing dice altogether whenever possible. I have inserted this mindset into my Pathfinder game, allowing them to attempt some different maneuvers that really have no analogous mechanic in the game, and THOSE have been some of the most fun moments in the campaign. I don't want to hate on one style or the other, but as for me, my heart is always going to be in the old school style.
@@booksbricksandboards783 The funniest part about complex mechanics is that a game designer is generally going to try to give a player between 45% and 80% chance of doing anything with the sweet spot being between 60% and 70%. That's where it feels like a challenge but you still have a satisfying rate of success (you're not missing all the time).
You really don't need complex mechanics to tell a player to roll 65% on percentile dice or 8 or more on a d20...which is pretty much what's going to happen with well designed, crunchy rules anyway.
I'm not bagging any rules system either. If you're having fun playing the way you're playing then mission accomplished. It's a game and the objective is to have fun.
@@EpicEmpires-pb7zv I think you pretty well nailed it. Savage Worlds is a good example. Target Number is almost always 4. Players roll a D6 plus a skill die (whatever their skill is d4,d8, etc), and pick the best (max number explodes). That leaves everyone with a greater than 50% of succeeding in most tasks (even that they are unskilled in). It encourages players to try a little more adventurous tactics, which makes for a more memorable game in my opinion.
B/X is my favorite version of D&D. Also those cause of death stamps are awesome!
Lol. The death stamps are kind of a looming threat. They don’t get used often (except when I play a DCC funnel), but I will occasionally idly say,”have you guys seen my stamp… I know it was around here somewhere.” Always gets a good reaction from the players.
@@booksbricksandboards783 haha that's great!
I started with BECMI. It's a fantastic system.
I can see the first home made map my neighbor made in my mind. Taking my fighter and mage out to explore the ruins and bringing home some treasure. Lots of good memories there!
As playable then as it is now. A great system for both newb players and veteran gamers. In my opinion, of course.
You are not wrong! Also completely cross compatible with all TSR D&D, as well as modern retro clone materials.
Great video! Explains BX in a way everyone would love to try. Thanks for making it.
Thanks! I find that people’s reasons for not wanting to try older systems stem from two places. 1) they have an assumption that newer is always better. 2) they have a distinct lack of knowledge about the system, and fill the void with preconceived notions that don’t align with the actual system. When we can actually get someone to the table to try these games, I find that they almost always enjoy them more than expected.
I agree, but one thing that coincides with point 2 : Moldvay Basic also kept the GAME aspect of role playing game. There were actual codified rules regarding dungeon exploration. You move five, rest one then your torch burns out or your lantern ticks down. Move five, rest one; that's one hour of exploration. It's one of the reasons I enjoy Darkest Dungeons; torchlight matters. How many are left? Do you press on or head back to town and get resupplied?
Necrotic Gnome has a great tool to keep track of this. Free download on the website. I use it for any dungeon crawl, not just BX.
@@booksbricksandboards783 Absolutely. I adore OSE most because of one special feature : Their classes are condensed to those one to two page layouts. If I open the book to Ranger, all of the Ranger is right there in front of me. If there were one OSR related ask I could have, it would be that every class is laid out so simply.
@@urfaes6878 They are the kings of the layout, bar none. Necrotic Gnome should do layout for every game.
I just ordered the Cyclopedia which is a abridged version of basic expert ect. The reprint is really affordable!
YES the Rules Cyclopedia is excellent! It has a little bit rougher thieves skill progression (Companion and Masters just kind stretched out what you used to get by end of Expert set), but it is a great compilation! It also has the Mystic (monk) and full skill and weapon prof optional rules. I have the PDF and used to own the physical book.
OSE of course has very much brought this version of the rules back into the spotlight. We're currently on a C&C kick with occasional digressions to DCC, but we always revert to OSE (B/X) at some point. It's my favorite version of the game to run, hands-down.
Yeah, the nice thing for me about OSE is that I can convince players to try it, because “look it is beautifully made, quick simple rules!” Some of those would never have agreed to play BX just because of the assumption of new=better. It really has opened up BX to a new audience, much to the joy of many old DM’s I would imagine! Also, C&C is very cool. I picked up the first printing DIRT cheap at Gen Con the year after it released (no Keeper Guide at the time), after talking to whichever of the Trolls was manning the booth for 40 minutes on two occasions. He talked about it having Gary’s seal of approval and that was good enough for me! Unfortunately I did not even have a group to play it at the time and eventually sold those copies.
Yeah, I cut my teeth on B/X back in 1981. Guess what? We're STILL playing it in my group! lol :-) We play an amalgam of B/X and AD&D 1e... which is sort of what OSE Advanced Fantasy is already, so that is what I would probably grab today if I didn't already own everything I will ever need to play. :-)
Good deal. Most aren’t able to keep a group together that long.
@@booksbricksandboards783 Amen! I feel really fortunate to have it still going. There are only two of us from the original, original group left, but that still counts! lol :-)
@@KabukiKid I'd count it. I have split my Covid group into two different groups now, with 3 in one and 4 in the other. So from my Covid 9, I still have 7. That is pretty good retention!
This is the best thing I ever saw.
Thanks
Completely agree with everything you said here. My own game is rooted in b/x with DM judgment calls outweighing the need for additional rules in most cases and always used when its an on the fly situation to keep the game flowing. I grew very tired of people bogging down my games with having to dig through rule books for an obscure line that is on page 345 of the twelfth book, in a slightly different edition.... For 30 years now, we go back to the DM 's word being final and try to remember its a big game of make believe. Two rulebooks is enough.
Now you are a DM’s table who I’d like to play at! Ironically, more rules limit creativity not spark it.
I wonder why Star Frontiers used a different system? I love that world and it's setting. I played a Savage Worlds version, but would really like to play it again with it's original rule set.
I never got into Star Frontiers, but did play some Gamma World and Metamorphosis Alpha.
Everyone should experience the original concept for D&D.
I'm currently in love with Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea
And
Dungeon Crawl Classics
After growing up on 3.5 and jumping on the 5E train harder than anyone else in my group since it was D&DNext, running, and playing it up until a couple years ago... I was disappointed and losing interest in the hobby.
It took a documentary on Old School D&D to inspire me to check out these older versions of the system, which set off a chain of events that made love the older style of play and take interest in the OSR.
Saved my hobby
Saved my table.
Hyperborea is a great take on AD&D, love that system! I started in Red Box BECMI, so returning to bx felt like coming home.
Great video. You cover B X and all the best OSR stuff. Old school is the best
Appreciate it! I am a child of the early 80’s so that is where my roots are at. I’m guilty of the wandering eye with RPG’s as you can see from my shelf, but I always reserve the fondest memories for B/X and it’s variants!
You grok D&D and you are promoting how fun and inspirational it is so you earned my sub today.
Well thank you sir! Appreciate the support. I have a pretty good video planned for tomorrow so hopefully that will keep your sub.
Great rundown! My first role playing game was Basic D&D back when it first came out in 1981. We ended up shifting to AD&D first edition because Expert rules weren't available then and Basic only went to level 3. That's a shame in hindsight because Basic/expert D&D is a much more DM friendly ruleset that encourages fun, loose play. The growing number of successful games trying to capture that B/X fun feel demonstrates just how great this ruleset was.
d20 roll under tip. Descending armor class in Basic D&D is really close to a much more elegant combat system. If you add 2 to descending armor class you get the number you need to hit on a d20 if you roll that number or LESS (a d20 roll under instead of the standard d20 roll over system). The to hit roll is the same for all human classes level 1-3 in Basic D&D so no need for a table or THAC0 if you use d20 roll under. Just add 2 to the armor class add your attribute stat and roll under.
Great insights on a subtle improvement to the attack roll, we all had hacks of some sort for the game which was part of the fun in the day! Thanks for watching and hope you get lots of gaming at your table today!
@@booksbricksandboards783 Back in the early 80s there were a lot fewer choices and we didn't really love any of the systems. We experimented with our own rules and even played a couple of sessions with no rules which worked surprisingly well.
The advantage of a roll under system is any adds add to the roll you need to succeed. So if you start with a descending armor class of 10 and need to roll 10 or less to hit...and then you add a +2 modifier...you need 12 to hit. You and the GM know what you need before you roll. This is what I call a "transparent" system. There's no mystery to it. That makes it more practical for the GM to adjust on the fly. Some players like the mystique of not being sure what their chances are though.
Also with a d20 roll under you halve the roll you need to make, multiply by 10 and that's your percentage chance of success. So in the example above where you need to roll a 12 or less to hit that's a 60% chance.
12 divided by 2 = 6 x 10 = 60%.
Personally I use a d10 roll under system because it is literally 100% intuitive. If you need to roll a 2 or less that's a 20% chance, if you need to roll a 6 or less that's a 60% chance. This is the simplest system for a GM and any game system can be adapted to percentages.
@@EpicEmpires-pb7zv Absolutely. I used a similar D10 roll under system with a home brew supers game I ran. There were Marvel Supers trading cards (not a game, just cards) that had stats for all the heroes and villain, rated 1-10. I took the stats presented and we ran several sessions off of those trading cards, and to be honest... Probably had as much fun as we did with the FASERIP TSR Marvel game. The Black Hack and Sharp Swords and Sinister Spells both have great roll under systems in rules lite shells as well.
@@booksbricksandboards783 That is a really cool idea for a game. Simple and elegant.
Swords & Wizardry is based on OD&D, which predates B/X. Fairly close, but more like AD&D than B/X.
That was actually not Swords & Wizardry, but Swords & Wizardry Complete. I know that the original S&W was based upon OD&D but the Complete edition sure seems to share a lot of BX DNA. I could definitely be wrong about that however. Thanks for watching!
I've been playing Dungeon Crawl Classics, which i know is not directly an OSR game but it's still very adjacent it.
Well, if you like Dungeon Crawl Classics, my favorite version of it is getting a full release in the next couple months. X Crawl Classics is Running Man meets American Gladiators by way of the Lord of the Rings.
I've given up on anything past 2e or 2.5 e. At best I might stripe 3e for parts. BX and or BECMI are awesome!. OSR 4 Life!!!!!!
You might give Worlds Without Number a shot if you haven’t. It is like B/X with the Traveller rules for skills.
@@booksbricksandboards783 I got that and Stars without number and Cities without number. . Cheer guy. :D
Excellent choices all around!
Great video!
Thanks Ducky! Appreciate it.
D&D81's Character Niche protection is waaaaay under rated IMO.
I’d agree with that mostly. I think the thief loses SOME of their niche protection in two ways. 1) wizards have invisibility and knock as spells (limited uses, and requires leveling). 2) their success chances start low enough that a lot of their value is in trial error/absorbing traps. That said, thieves level up faster and once they hit 6th level or so, they really start to add some great utility.
@booksbricksandboards783 Good point about magic users and thieves, I've noticed that myself. On a related note the YT channel "Daddy Rolled a One" does a great job going over the history of vintage D&D and it's classes etc. He mentioned in one video that the 1st D&D thieves were actually based on the magic user "chassis" which makes sense and maybe explains their ability to eventually read magic and cast from scrolls. And of course The Grey Mouser was formerly a wizards apprentice before he embarked on his adventuring/theiving career with Fafrd.
@@michaelmorrissey8983 I think your last point pretty much nails it. AD&D thieves were very much Gray Mouser idolizers. To be fair though, the Mouser would never have died to a 1 Hit Die monster. He also succeeded at his thief ability checks more than they did... Except when he was drinking, then all bets were off! :)
@@booksbricksandboards783 Heheheh! Exactly!
Thank you for this . I am 3rd edition DM since 2008 and i was never impressed with 5e or whatever Tome,s of horror WOTC and Hasbro want to sell . I been looking into OSE and becmi for the past few weeks .
You are very welcome. BX is a clean system, and it is VERY well supported, both with classic material and new material. If one wants an old school game, that would be an excellent starting point. Old School Essentials is 100% true to the source, but uses a much better layout.
@@booksbricksandboards783 I am wondering if Drive Thru RPG gets its old material from Internet Archives .
Fond memories ❤
Really felt like it was a world of possibilities compared to Frogger and Pitfall!
Check out BECMI Berserker - he rocks BX
Agreed! I’m a subscriber.
I used to have those :) when I started ...
My first books I owned were actually the 1st edition books, given by a relative that moved on to other hobbies. Then when my neighbor switched to 2nd edition he gave me his basic, expert and companion boxes that we played, man I wish I still had those. First game I ran was 2nd edition, and it really felt like a whole new animal. Little did I know how much I should have appreciated those boxes. Wasn’t until a buddy picked up the Rules Cyclopedia from Wargames West that I really saw the appeal of a game that required so little supplementation to make it good (that is also the first time I saw the Mystic, because I never had the Masters set). Ah, good times!
1 I was playing it in 2022
2 I was playing it in 2021
3 I was playing it in 2020
4 you get the idea...
Lol. Good choice! I left RPG’s for about 8 years and started again in 2020. First game I ran was a full campaign in Old School Essentials, with a Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea Thief because I felt like the power creep helped keep him closer to the other classes. We played through the B1-B9 Into Adventure TSR module compilation, up until they altered the story enough that it became distinctly home brewed after about 9 sessions. 😉
It's not about is BECMI any good, it's about how D&D has been more about make the player spend spend spend since 2nd edition. Basic/Expert is as good as AD&D, but the game has lost it's way ever since AD&D.
I agree with this regarding “official” D&D products. With the different variations of “inspired by the mechanics of” products, I think that there are several games that took the ball WoTC dropped and ran with it. Hyperborea, Castles & Crusades and Dungeon Crawl Classics all feel like logical successors to the early editions, just without the name. Thanks for watching!
14:00 the glare off the cover hides the title - can anyone tell me what that is?
I think you are probably talking about Lamentations of the Flame Princess. It has a bit of glossy cover, sorry about the glare.
Just by the description of “not family friendly” we know lol
Who's this guy?
Like Vader said, “Davis, I am your father.”
Where did you get that cause of death stamp😮?
Goodman Games website! They have a few options!
@@booksbricksandboards783 thanks 😈
All good game masters realize that death is a necessary part of life… a frequent one for reckless players 😉
Grew up with 2E AD&D and been away from TTRPGs since the 90s until a few months ago. Getting back into it and learning 5E, your statement on how fleshing out crunchier rules, in many ways, "imprisons" the player and GM. I'm still playing 5E as it is completely new to me, but I've also been acquiring OSE stuff because it is really appealing.
I don’t think that you will be disappointed in OSE. It is a really great rule set and the layout is just extremely usable.