Also remember that more weight increases your wing loading. Since the maximum lift an aircraft produces doesn't change, lowering weight has all sorts of aerodynamic benefits. -Increased instantaneous turn rate -Increased sustained turn rate -Decreased stall speed -Higher Max G Good video as always Cap.
I'd like to add, that this is strictly an emergency maneuver. Many players are treating this like it's normal. Fuel tanks are there to increase range of travel during patrols, escorts, or relocation flights where combat isn't necessarily expected. But ideally you might be deploying as close as possible to the combat area. Why load the tanks if you don't need them. Many encounters you see on our maps aren't that far. Those things are expensive and limited in quantity. Fighter pilots will keep them on as long as possible. BVR? Keep them. Somebody jumped you up close while en route to an escort mission? Drop them.
A majority of the F-15c dropped their wing tanks during Desert Storm. If you read through the pilot debriefs as published in "Debrief A complete history of U.S. aerial engagements 1981 to present" by Craig Brown, this is mention in several of their debriefs as they set up for the transition from BVR to possible WVR engagements. After the engagements they would request a tanker prior to RTB if needed.
I think I remember making a comment about seeing you always say in the debriefs how you need to drop the bags. In many combat situations that you can see in videos, Korea, Vietnam, especially WW2 and even more modern than that, the pilots always drop their tanks if they are going to be engaged in close range combat. I could understand not dropping if using BVR missiles and getting a kill, but if those were to fail, you want all the speed, climb and maneuvering you want.
Also, bags = greater Radar Cross Section = earlier detection by the bad guy and easier for the tiny little F3 radar to make you late; as in "the Late Joe Bloggins". If doing a merge fight, perhaps keep them and drop just as he passes under...
its quite simple really as having tanks on reduces the performance envelope, i.e. the amount of G the aircraft can pull safely, removing the tanks will open this envelope up and enable the aircraft to safely pull more G.
I do think you still shouldn’t drop your tanks on BVR, since you would be burning a lot of fuel. But if you get in a “sticky situation” or the bandit has forced a merge, yeah, the big 15 gotta drop their bags.
From the wiki : Low-drag conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) were developed for the F-15C and D models. They can be attached to the sides of the engine air intakes under each wing and are designed to the same load factors and airspeed limits as the basic aircraft.[51] These tanks slightly degrade performance by increasing aerodynamic drag and cannot be jettisoned in-flight. However, they cause less drag than conventional external tanks.
The F-15C is quite maneuverable when you drop the tanks... The tanks for the F-15C are HUGE and you have 3 of them! Drop them and you are much more able to hold your own with other aircraft in any maneuvers - weather it's surviving a dogfight or out-maneuvering a missile.
Drag increases by square. So double the speed you need for times as much power. At some point you just bring the the extra full to carry that extra full. This just to add to Caps points.
That 10 sec difference in turn rate is a massive difference! Imagine you fired/reacted 10 sec later than the enemy! Great vid, demonstration and explanation.
Very persuasive actually. In a sim like DCS, it’s understandable that the player can just train with this disadvantage against AI bad guys. In real life, I guess those tanks would come off as soon as things get hairy.
Dropping bags is realistic and is taught in flight school, the less weight you have the more performance of the aircraft specially in vertical climb and rotation of the aircraft
No, we aren't taught in Flight School. More the FTU or B-Course is where we go over that stuff. But, I've never actually seen anyone do it in two decades of TacAir....! ;-)
Hey Cap, really amazing videos and we really need more educational ones. Please do more and add them maybe in a playlist. It would be nice if you could explain everything about DCS for the real amateurs like me that started recently after watching one of your videos. Thank you for your hard work. Keep it up.
Copy, I will link our Educational Vids list here, and we are adding two new vids to it every day, so give it a check every few days: ruclips.net/p/PL3kOAM2N1YJfFBHHzkwuRA2vZNKaU6VuJ
I've always felt the tanks are dropped too early in these videos. I would lean towards sometimes dropping 2 in the BVR arena, sometimes keeping them all depending on situation and only dropping all of the tanks before a maximum turn is required, either missile evasion or dogfighting. BVR if you need the acceleration you usually have the opportunity to just hit the burners earlier, and you will rarely find the reduction in turn rate an issue. Sure if you don't need the fuel then dropping them early or even dumping internal fuel will help with the weight but all too often I see people running dry after a big fight. I think the tests were fairly good, though I would focus on 300-500 knots, though starting from 200 again so the aircraft has time to work itself up. 600 knots certainly isn't optimal combat speed, and if one were to enter a fight at 600 knots it would be a severe disadvantage as the adversary would just force a one circle fight and get an easy shot off whilst you're unable to reduce your turn radius in time at such an excessive speed. Entering at perhaps 500 knots still allows a little excess energy to burn but doesn't completely ruin turn radius putting you in a good position for one circle, two circle, or even the unlikely vertical merge. Aside from that the 350-500 speed is pretty useful to show the effect trying to regain energy with a sterilised environment (rather than dropping to a 4g turn etc.) Maximum performance turn was absolutely the main test however, and that was done perfectly. Its by far the most important stat for dogfighting and 6.3 to 4.9 seem about what you would expect. Sure it was at full fuel but you can estimate the effect of half full tanks from that. It also highlights why its very important to dump fuel in the Su-27 before a dogfight, and in the past in the DCS universe that was a well known thing though the practice seems to have been lost to time a little. In the real world they will almost never drop tanks however. Not only does any form of jettison prevent a risk to the aircraft (see ruclips.net/video/HOvDEgWiAR4/видео.html ) but it also presents a risk to anyone below the aircraft and discards an expensive tank. They will often dogfight with all 3 tanks if they have to though they will tend to only take what is required and only take one or two if they can get away with it. Dropping the tanks if the aircraft is in serious risk but they estimate that the aircraft and pilot training will beat the adversary with such an advantage that they almost never need to drop, and that prediction is usually accurate. Anyway very nice video. If you've got the time I could see people wanting more performance tests like this to show how the different aircraft compare. Certainly showing how each of the fighters performs at 300-500 knots as well as a turn at 450 and 350 which tend to be the two important areas. Showing which aircraft like it slow and just how much of an advantage one has when keeping the fight slow/fast and so on is incredibly useful information. Either way this was a good idea and the tests were well performed, great job.
I have feeling at least in the DCS multiplayer 90% of the fighting in the F -15C is done in BVR, and it almost always starts in BVR. I would have liked to see the maximum speed difference at 20,000 in straight and level flight, because that determines the extra energy your missile will have the therefore the extra kill range/probability you can get.
Interesting... by dropping tanks early you can put more energy into your missile shots. Nice tip Cap. All though I have done both. I have been deep into a dog fight and wondered why my 9G F-15C was only a 7G jet. Still got some kills. But, in the end you are right. Fuel is NOT life. Drop'em and fight harder!
Thats my point, sure you can accelerate faster and get some good energy into the shot, but if you hit the throttles a little earlier you'd get just as much speed without paying for it. Along with dropping only 2 of the tanks in the BVR phase that would leave you with all of the benefits, low enough weight to respond to their shots, but still a little more fuel when you hit the dogfight (or stay BVR). And if you're staying BVR the benefits are so slim I would tend to keep all 3 tanks unless you get a little too close. In terms of maximum speed you're going to hit diminishing returns so trying to chase a mach 2 shot really isn't worth it. If you're really trying to chase the maximum range then altitude is the real key here. From 30k to 5k you'd usually get half the range, possibly less. Again you hit diminishing returns but assuming the target drops its altitude (which it should) you're going to be in the low density air a lot more when pushing your altitude up for the shot, but of course it comes with its own risks like pushing for speed. In Vietnam the only aircraft to exceed Mach 1.6 ran out of fuel and the pilot ditched and ejected and only 3 broke Mach 1.4 (and barely made it home with fuel) despite being as fast as the F-15 - if you're chasing speed you need a lot of fuel to make it happen hence my suggestion to keep one of the tanks onboard. And finally for anyone new to the the idea of speed for lobbing BVR shots, you're going to want to make sure you're at the radar's gimbal for as much of the time as you can. Angle off by 60 degrees as you close, point the nose to the target as you shoot (helps the missile's energy) and back to 60 degrees the second the missile is off the rails, usually a good point to turn to the other side. Speed increases your missile range, but if you're flying directly towards the enemy it increases their range a lot more than yours. Angling off helps reduce that closure and it also gives the missile further to go as it has to chase your horizontal movement too. Switching sides gives it an S shape to follow. Ultimately you never know when the enemy has fired, be it an AIM-120 or an R-27D you won't get an indication so you want to reduce the time you're vulnerable. In single player the computer uses some very obvious logic for the R-27D so thats less of an issue but its always good to get into good habits.
"if one were to enter a fight at 600 knots it would be a severe disadvantage as the adversary would just force a one circle fight and get an easy shot off whilst you're unable to reduce your turn radius in time at such an excessive speed." How much speed would an f-15 burn off at 25% throttle per 90deg of turn-angle at 8G, cuteness?
is there any way to drop my fuel tanks in the middle of air ?! and how? any bottom I will try not to take extra fuel tanks but how can we drop them if we face an enemy?
Just saying that if you're expecting combat and you're bags empty, it might be better to focus on the engagement rather than the drop procedure IF it's the case that there's no difference...
No reason to discuss this in any detail. If you want/need max performance DROP THE DROP TANKS!This video is very good, as it illustrates the magnitude of the advantage gained by dropping the bags.This has been repeated in the debriefs time and again.One thing that should also be repeated is: Keep an eye at your compass, so you can turn 180deg - NOT 270deg or even 360deg. I have now seen so many examples of turning out/back by doing a 340deg turn.
The ONLY advantage of keeping them is in the BARCAP situation when you are just trying to be persistent and drive enemies away from a high value target....unless they get in close. Some say that the centerline tank isn't as big a deal as the Wings, and I can see that. But when I do air to air thing, I DROP TANKS!
Can an F-15 keep a vertical climb at any loadout? I know it's not directly tied to the test, but it can be important in managing the speed in dogfights. I am new to this sim and I've been trying to find out the answer to this question since I started learning how to pilot the F-15 in game. Still trying to learn how to properly manage speed and turns in hectic situations.
Everything here is true. But before you start throwing tanks to the ground try to identify the mission first If youre going something like a ground strike or patrol,fuel tank is still an option. But if let's say somehow you encountered a hostile.Immediately drop your fueltanks regardless.I don't know if the F-15 is actually meant to dogfight close range or not (and be as effective as the Fulcrum and Flanker family) but it will definitely help in manouverability.Yet i doubt you will return to your homebase (especially if its very far) with only 1 or no fuel tanks
You may want to drop them after firing at ground targets as well. I'm pretty sure there will be AAA after you, and you don't want big tanks on the wings to stop you from turning faster.
Don't get me wrong I completely understand that you are correct here, but you should redo this test with empty tanks. I'm curious how devastating it is to forget to drop those when they're empty.
It's sometimes easy to forget that the F15C is actually a properly modeled aircraft in the game. Because of how damn good it is it doesn't feel like any other aircraft in the game. How fast it accelerates, how quick it turns, how stable it is in flight. I'm constantly surprised when the aerodynamics actually function with it. i.e. more weight = less acceleration and speed, and more drag = less acceleration and longer turn times. To be fair I've only flown it once in a clean configuration and that was after firing all my missiles and dropping my tanks, but I was low on fuel so I wasn't going fast. So I assume that if it can manage to stay transonic with 8 missiles and 3 fuel tanks, it likely hits mach 2 clean. It's top speed is quoted at 1,656mph but I haven't actually tested that in-game yet. I'll report back when I do. But just based on that, it should literally be the fastest aircraft in the game mods excluded. It is actually the 3rd fastest jet fighter in the world currently, only beaten by the J-10(1,687) and MIG-31(1,900). Even the F-14 as great as it was could only reach 1,544mph.
I’m a super noob when it comes to this stuff.....is there a specific reason (besides tanks) that you can’t pull harder? Is it a structure tolerance issue?
the harder you pull, the more "alpha" or AoA you put on the jet, this increases drag quadratically. So if you pull hard then you stall. Same with all planes, it's a careful balancing act between pull and alpha/drag. Every plane has a sweet spot which produces maximum turn rate.
Grim Reapers Yes please, I'm going to be using VR so using keyboard controls is all but out. Thanx for the prompt reply. Hope to join you guys in the future. On a side note you should upload more "Blooper" vids.
Also interrested in this. I also wonder how you set up your TrackIR/headtracking. When you look around it seems you can easily look at what you want to see (and back) pretty fast without issues (looking to the rear, looking to the panels left and right, looking up left and right to track other fighters, ...). I use FaceTrackNoIR and tried to set up my curves etc. but especially looking down left/rigt to see the panels/switches I have to move my head pretty awkwardly etc.. Also, do you use a one monitor setup or do you use more monitors? Enjoying your videos very much. Because of them I installed DCS and bought my first package (A-10C).
U need to fly the f15 like a brick so u need all the fuel and afterburner. Without tanks if your lines are not right you'll lose speed and he's going to zap u
Did this really require a whole video? Not that hard to understand that fuel tanks add weight, drag, and wing loading. Common sense, get to the point please.
i agree, but not anymore f15 can do anything shoved 2 missiles 2x530 hits... f15 continues on smoking with 2 bags and commences to dogfight..... granted he was good at jinking and also all that smoke hard to get a bead, we know about the mirages cannons (no spread and low ammo count) thus i ran out of ammo
so you did 0 and 3 but not 2 (wings only) or 1 (center only). on a different perspective what do the actual fighter pilots say? I may be wrong but I thought navey found 2 bags was sweet spot (to routinely use). Not saying never drop them, but I seem to remimber that to get range and time two bags was worth the aero penalty (exclusive of dog fighting ). BVR fighting may be different somtimes. remember that if fighters did not see "combat " the navy wanted the fuel tanks back (they are expensive ) unlike in dcs.
Fredrick Nietzsche 1) expensive??? I guess u need cheap biodegradeable drop tanks (like degrades in a month after out of manufacturing factory) 2) pleh... dat's why fighters like advanced super hornets have conformal fuel tanks; aerodynamically improved, can't get rid of cuz they're intergrated, not so bad performance loss bcuz of lower drag
I feel like your missing the main point :D it dosent need 300 tests under diff conditions, The point of this vid imo was to show that if you have bags on you WILL see a considerable reduction in air frame performance. Now you could be Baron Von Richthofen reincarnated and capable if kicking anyone's ass with 3 bags and a donkey strapped to your 15 but by not hitting the single drop bag key-bind you ARE intentionally handicapping yourself. Take bags, use them to gain altitude and positional advantage but once the safety's are off and the battle is on then every pilot worth his wings (be it virtual or IRL) will be looking to capitalize on every advantage and mitigate every disadvantage available to him. In a 15 the first step of this process will and should always be dumping those bags! Even the Red Baron himself got his ass shot down :D
Grinkle agreed. Red Baron got shot by mudspike though and without bags :) That is when you take your fighter down on the deck and do CAS. Mensch Mannfred, das hättest du wissen müssen!
My main point with Richtofen was even the best aces can catch a bullet ;) the only way they avoid it for as long as they do is by doing everything in your power to make the fight as unfair in your advantage as possible :)
You're testing F-15 with 11.6 tons of fuel vs F-15 with 6.1 ton of fuel. Total max t/o weight is 30.8 tons. Just stop. Think. As for the drop tanks, if you're caught with pants down and tanks full, drop them. If not, don't. That's my opinion on the subject.
It would be more practical if the fuel tanks were incorporated into the airframe at the same level with the wings instead of hanging down as it does now. This way the aircraft does not have to jettison the fuel tanks in order to go into attack mode.
plus, dropping the tanks wins the hearts and minds of the people by providing a lifetime supply of sturdy boats: images.ehowa.com/vietnamdroptanks/vietnamdroptanks2.jpg
In any experiment, as long as you keep all variables constant except the one you want to measure, your results will be accurate. Since the engines have the same spool-up time regardless of drop tanks, and since Cap kept initial throttles constant and did the exact same spool-up procedure both times, the added times will essentially cancel each other out in the results.
They are only dropped in emergencies. If they dropped tanks every time they got into combat they would be out of tanks within the week. As they are very expensive and limited.
They are a lot cheaper than a new plane, and training a new pilot to fly it. They drop them when going into combat. If you can't afford drop tanks you can't afford an air force.
You're comment has no basis in reality. In actual practice, tanks are almost never dropped. Go look it up. Again. They are extremely limited, even in the US military.
romeo r in actual practice the US hasn't faced a serious contender for its air superiority since Vietnam. Of course you don't drop your tanks if you're lobbing slammers at some rustbucket helicopters
Also remember that more weight increases your wing loading. Since the maximum lift an aircraft produces doesn't change, lowering weight has all sorts of aerodynamic benefits.
-Increased instantaneous turn rate
-Increased sustained turn rate
-Decreased stall speed
-Higher Max G
Good video as always Cap.
Roger noted
I'd like to add, that this is strictly an emergency maneuver. Many players are treating this like it's normal. Fuel tanks are there to increase range of travel during patrols, escorts, or relocation flights where combat isn't necessarily expected. But ideally you might be deploying as close as possible to the combat area. Why load the tanks if you don't need them. Many encounters you see on our maps aren't that far. Those things are expensive and limited in quantity. Fighter pilots will keep them on as long as possible. BVR? Keep them. Somebody jumped you up close while en route to an escort mission? Drop them.
good point!
Non pilots: “He speaks the language of the Gods!”
Ace Pilots: *nod and salute, Top Gun Style* 😎
A majority of the F-15c dropped their wing tanks during Desert Storm. If you read through the pilot debriefs as published in "Debrief A complete history of U.S. aerial engagements 1981 to present" by Craig Brown, this is mention in several of their debriefs as they set up for the transition from BVR to possible WVR engagements. After the engagements they would request a tanker prior to RTB if needed.
Thanks Sir
I think I remember making a comment about seeing you always say in the debriefs how you need to drop the bags. In many combat situations that you can see in videos, Korea, Vietnam, especially WW2 and even more modern than that, the pilots always drop their tanks if they are going to be engaged in close range combat. I could understand not dropping if using BVR missiles and getting a kill, but if those were to fail, you want all the speed, climb and maneuvering you want.
Yup
Also, bags = greater Radar Cross Section = earlier detection by the bad guy and easier for the tiny little F3 radar to make you late; as in "the Late Joe Bloggins". If doing a merge fight, perhaps keep them and drop just as he passes under...
its quite simple really as having tanks on reduces the performance envelope, i.e. the amount of G the aircraft can pull safely, removing the tanks will open this envelope up and enable the aircraft to safely pull more G.
I do think you still shouldn’t drop your tanks on BVR, since you would be burning a lot of fuel.
But if you get in a “sticky situation” or the bandit has forced a merge, yeah, the big 15 gotta drop their bags.
From the wiki : Low-drag conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) were developed for the F-15C and D models. They can be attached to the sides of the engine air intakes under each wing and are designed to the same load factors and airspeed limits as the basic aircraft.[51] These tanks slightly degrade performance by increasing aerodynamic drag and cannot be jettisoned in-flight. However, they cause less drag than conventional external tanks.
7:59 "twenty perseven" :P
Excellent experiment showing the effects.
The F-15C is quite maneuverable when you drop the tanks... The tanks for the F-15C are HUGE and you have 3 of them! Drop them and you are much more able to hold your own with other aircraft in any maneuvers - weather it's surviving a dogfight or out-maneuvering a missile.
how do u drop em?
Drag increases by square. So double the speed you need for times as much power. At some point you just bring the the extra full to carry that extra full. This just to add to Caps points.
That 10 sec difference in turn rate is a massive difference! Imagine you fired/reacted 10 sec later than the enemy! Great vid, demonstration and explanation.
Very persuasive actually. In a sim like DCS, it’s understandable that the player can just train with this disadvantage against AI bad guys. In real life, I guess those tanks would come off as soon as things get hairy.
Dropping bags is realistic and is taught in flight school, the less weight you have the more performance of the aircraft specially in vertical climb and rotation of the aircraft
No, we aren't taught in Flight School. More the FTU or B-Course is where we go over that stuff. But, I've never actually seen anyone do it in two decades of TacAir....! ;-)
thanks for all these cap about to have a crack at the f15 and just finished all your tutorials on it
Pleasure
Hey Cap, really amazing videos and we really need more educational ones. Please do more and add them maybe in a playlist. It would be nice if you could explain everything about DCS for the real amateurs like me that started recently after watching one of your videos. Thank you for your hard work. Keep it up.
Copy, I will link our Educational Vids list here, and we are adding two new vids to it every day, so give it a check every few days: ruclips.net/p/PL3kOAM2N1YJfFBHHzkwuRA2vZNKaU6VuJ
I've always felt the tanks are dropped too early in these videos. I would lean towards sometimes dropping 2 in the BVR arena, sometimes keeping them all depending on situation and only dropping all of the tanks before a maximum turn is required, either missile evasion or dogfighting. BVR if you need the acceleration you usually have the opportunity to just hit the burners earlier, and you will rarely find the reduction in turn rate an issue. Sure if you don't need the fuel then dropping them early or even dumping internal fuel will help with the weight but all too often I see people running dry after a big fight.
I think the tests were fairly good, though I would focus on 300-500 knots, though starting from 200 again so the aircraft has time to work itself up. 600 knots certainly isn't optimal combat speed, and if one were to enter a fight at 600 knots it would be a severe disadvantage as the adversary would just force a one circle fight and get an easy shot off whilst you're unable to reduce your turn radius in time at such an excessive speed. Entering at perhaps 500 knots still allows a little excess energy to burn but doesn't completely ruin turn radius putting you in a good position for one circle, two circle, or even the unlikely vertical merge. Aside from that the 350-500 speed is pretty useful to show the effect trying to regain energy with a sterilised environment (rather than dropping to a 4g turn etc.)
Maximum performance turn was absolutely the main test however, and that was done perfectly. Its by far the most important stat for dogfighting and 6.3 to 4.9 seem about what you would expect. Sure it was at full fuel but you can estimate the effect of half full tanks from that. It also highlights why its very important to dump fuel in the Su-27 before a dogfight, and in the past in the DCS universe that was a well known thing though the practice seems to have been lost to time a little.
In the real world they will almost never drop tanks however. Not only does any form of jettison prevent a risk to the aircraft (see ruclips.net/video/HOvDEgWiAR4/видео.html ) but it also presents a risk to anyone below the aircraft and discards an expensive tank. They will often dogfight with all 3 tanks if they have to though they will tend to only take what is required and only take one or two if they can get away with it. Dropping the tanks if the aircraft is in serious risk but they estimate that the aircraft and pilot training will beat the adversary with such an advantage that they almost never need to drop, and that prediction is usually accurate.
Anyway very nice video. If you've got the time I could see people wanting more performance tests like this to show how the different aircraft compare. Certainly showing how each of the fighters performs at 300-500 knots as well as a turn at 450 and 350 which tend to be the two important areas. Showing which aircraft like it slow and just how much of an advantage one has when keeping the fight slow/fast and so on is incredibly useful information. Either way this was a good idea and the tests were well performed, great job.
I've always taught to drop 20 miles before first BVR missiles as to maximize speed of first shot and gain initiative at the beginning.
I have feeling at least in the DCS multiplayer 90% of the fighting in the F -15C is done in BVR, and it almost always starts in BVR. I would have liked to see the maximum speed difference at 20,000 in straight and level flight, because that determines the extra energy your missile will have the therefore the extra kill range/probability you can get.
Interesting... by dropping tanks early you can put more energy into your missile shots. Nice tip Cap. All though I have done both. I have been deep into a dog fight and wondered why my 9G F-15C was only a 7G jet. Still got some kills. But, in the end you are right. Fuel is NOT life. Drop'em and fight harder!
Thats my point, sure you can accelerate faster and get some good energy into the shot, but if you hit the throttles a little earlier you'd get just as much speed without paying for it. Along with dropping only 2 of the tanks in the BVR phase that would leave you with all of the benefits, low enough weight to respond to their shots, but still a little more fuel when you hit the dogfight (or stay BVR). And if you're staying BVR the benefits are so slim I would tend to keep all 3 tanks unless you get a little too close.
In terms of maximum speed you're going to hit diminishing returns so trying to chase a mach 2 shot really isn't worth it. If you're really trying to chase the maximum range then altitude is the real key here. From 30k to 5k you'd usually get half the range, possibly less. Again you hit diminishing returns but assuming the target drops its altitude (which it should) you're going to be in the low density air a lot more when pushing your altitude up for the shot, but of course it comes with its own risks like pushing for speed. In Vietnam the only aircraft to exceed Mach 1.6 ran out of fuel and the pilot ditched and ejected and only 3 broke Mach 1.4 (and barely made it home with fuel) despite being as fast as the F-15 - if you're chasing speed you need a lot of fuel to make it happen hence my suggestion to keep one of the tanks onboard.
And finally for anyone new to the the idea of speed for lobbing BVR shots, you're going to want to make sure you're at the radar's gimbal for as much of the time as you can. Angle off by 60 degrees as you close, point the nose to the target as you shoot (helps the missile's energy) and back to 60 degrees the second the missile is off the rails, usually a good point to turn to the other side. Speed increases your missile range, but if you're flying directly towards the enemy it increases their range a lot more than yours. Angling off helps reduce that closure and it also gives the missile further to go as it has to chase your horizontal movement too. Switching sides gives it an S shape to follow. Ultimately you never know when the enemy has fired, be it an AIM-120 or an R-27D you won't get an indication so you want to reduce the time you're vulnerable. In single player the computer uses some very obvious logic for the R-27D so thats less of an issue but its always good to get into good habits.
"if one were to enter a fight at 600 knots it would be a severe disadvantage as the adversary would just force a one circle fight and get an easy shot off whilst you're unable to reduce your turn radius in time at such an excessive speed."
How much speed would an f-15 burn off at 25% throttle per 90deg of turn-angle at 8G, cuteness?
You can get away with it at BVR if you know where the enemy is.
When you get the f14 the tanks are recessive and are places in the middle and with the swing it compensates
what do u press to drop fuel tanks ?
LCtrl+W
Grim Reapers thank you :)
I know the F-15 is quite big, but what about Long range radar modes? Will dropping the tanks reduce your radar signature at all?
Tested and does not reduce RCS.
is there any way to drop my fuel tanks in the middle of air ?! and how? any bottom
I will try not to take extra fuel tanks but how can we drop them if we face an enemy?
LCtrl+W I think
Just look it up in the controls
Left alt+R will drop bags only. Left ctrl+w will start dropping your missiles after your bags if you're not careful.
How much of this is aerodynamic versus weight? What's the performance hit of carrying empty tanks?
The majority is drag caused by high alpha caused by the weight. The actual base drag coefficient effect is very little.
Interesting. Have you done any comparisons when empty? If there's not any difference, might as well keep them on once they're empty, right?
Not unless you plan on doing a mid air refuel. It's not as if you have to worry about wasting tax dollars in a game.
Just saying that if you're expecting combat and you're bags empty, it might be better to focus on the engagement rather than the drop procedure IF it's the case that there's no difference...
But thrust to weight ratio skyrocketing compared to what it was is huge - especially if you decide to climb :).
No reason to discuss this in any detail. If you want/need max performance DROP THE DROP TANKS!This video is very good, as it illustrates the magnitude of the advantage gained by dropping the bags.This has been repeated in the debriefs time and again.One thing that should also be repeated is: Keep an eye at your compass, so you can turn 180deg - NOT 270deg or even 360deg. I have now seen so many examples of turning out/back by doing a 340deg turn.
The ONLY advantage of keeping them is in the BARCAP situation when you are just trying to be persistent and drive enemies away from a high value target....unless they get in close. Some say that the centerline tank isn't as big a deal as the Wings, and I can see that. But when I do air to air thing, I DROP TANKS!
Can an F-15 keep a vertical climb at any loadout? I know it's not directly tied to the test, but it can be important in managing the speed in dogfights. I am new to this sim and I've been trying to find out the answer to this question since I started learning how to pilot the F-15 in game. Still trying to learn how to properly manage speed and turns in hectic situations.
It can only maintain a vertical climb with a completely clean airframe.
Thank you.
Everything here is true.
But before you start throwing tanks to the ground try to identify the mission first
If youre going something like a ground strike or patrol,fuel tank is still an option.
But if let's say somehow you encountered a hostile.Immediately drop your fueltanks regardless.I don't know if the F-15 is actually meant to dogfight close range or not (and be as effective as the Fulcrum and Flanker family) but it will definitely help in manouverability.Yet i doubt you will return to your homebase (especially if its very far) with only 1 or no fuel tanks
You may want to drop them after firing at ground targets as well. I'm pretty sure there will be AAA after you, and you don't want big tanks on the wings to stop you from turning faster.
Wing bags also decreases your roll rate a lot.
Here comes the snow..
Don't get me wrong I completely understand that you are correct here, but you should redo this test with empty tanks. I'm curious how devastating it is to forget to drop those when they're empty.
Roger interesting
It's sometimes easy to forget that the F15C is actually a properly modeled aircraft in the game. Because of how damn good it is it doesn't feel like any other aircraft in the game. How fast it accelerates, how quick it turns, how stable it is in flight. I'm constantly surprised when the aerodynamics actually function with it. i.e. more weight = less acceleration and speed, and more drag = less acceleration and longer turn times. To be fair I've only flown it once in a clean configuration and that was after firing all my missiles and dropping my tanks, but I was low on fuel so I wasn't going fast. So I assume that if it can manage to stay transonic with 8 missiles and 3 fuel tanks, it likely hits mach 2 clean. It's top speed is quoted at 1,656mph but I haven't actually tested that in-game yet. I'll report back when I do. But just based on that, it should literally be the fastest aircraft in the game mods excluded. It is actually the 3rd fastest jet fighter in the world currently, only beaten by the J-10(1,687) and MIG-31(1,900). Even the F-14 as great as it was could only reach 1,544mph.
The game hard blocks you at 790kts/910mph/1.7mach which kinda sucks... Why would they limit it by nearly half of it's max speed?
By the way, the word you were looking for when you said 'makes the plane bigger' might be frontal area
U need 2 empty fuel tanks for better lines if you're going to push against sues
Is the F-15E Strike Eagle available yet? Since it can perform all roles that F-15C is Pure Air Superiority Aircraft.
neg
I’m a super noob when it comes to this stuff.....is there a specific reason (besides tanks) that you can’t pull harder?
Is it a structure tolerance issue?
the harder you pull, the more "alpha" or AoA you put on the jet, this increases drag quadratically. So if you pull hard then you stall. Same with all planes, it's a careful balancing act between pull and alpha/drag. Every plane has a sweet spot which produces maximum turn rate.
Grim Reapers thank you for the explanation.
Would You Fight with your Winter coat on in the summer?
Optimal varies depending on circumstances
What flight sticks do the Reapers use? Do you guys run HOTAS or combination of stick and keyboard. I'm looking for good HOTAS for use with VR.
About to do a vid on this
Grim Reapers Please do, also interested in this
Grim Reapers Yes please, I'm going to be using VR so using keyboard controls is all but out. Thanx for the prompt reply. Hope to join you guys in the future. On a side note you should upload more "Blooper" vids.
Also interrested in this.
I also wonder how you set up your TrackIR/headtracking. When you look around it seems you can easily look at what you want to see (and back) pretty fast without issues (looking to the rear, looking to the panels left and right, looking up left and right to track other fighters, ...).
I use FaceTrackNoIR and tried to set up my curves etc. but especially looking down left/rigt to see the panels/switches I have to move my head pretty awkwardly etc..
Also, do you use a one monitor setup or do you use more monitors?
Enjoying your videos very much. Because of them I installed DCS and bought my first package (A-10C).
I have trouble dropping them sometimes, why is that? I think it has something to do with negative G´s or something, they are just stuck.
you must be straight and level to drop tanks in any aircraft. Speed does not matter tho
Regarding the F-15, is there an indication of the flaps on or off ? thanks
Bottom left on the left of the gear panel from memory.
where can i see that the external fuel tanks are empty ?
but how do you drop the fuel tanks?
LCtrl+W
@@grimreapers thx man
it's like warming tires
It depends!
U need to fly the f15 like a brick so u need all the fuel and afterburner. Without tanks if your lines are not right you'll lose speed and he's going to zap u
Did this really require a whole video? Not that hard to understand that fuel tanks add weight, drag, and wing loading. Common sense, get to the point please.
TBH I've learned a lot since making this. This vid will only be true in certain circumstances.
There are a lot of newbies in DCS, people who never played Combat FS before. They even need to know to do Gear Up after take off bud.
words like "must" are dangerous words to use, because quite often there is such a high probability that not only are you wrong, but dangerously wrong
Oh shit. This was today! lucky me
what's the key for dropping a tank?
L/ctrl + w
I figured it out! It's LAlt + R
Thx cap
Yay! playing video games and posting it online. What a novel concept
New to the internet? This has been happening for a very long time now...
u could surprise him if u drop your tank in a turn and accelerate
Is that game free ?
Yes
i agree, but not anymore
f15 can do anything
shoved 2 missiles 2x530 hits...
f15 continues on smoking with 2 bags and commences to dogfight..... granted he was good at jinking and also all that smoke hard to get a bead, we know about the mirages cannons (no spread and low ammo count) thus i ran out of ammo
but yes your still right
still processing at time of post
ruclips.net/video/eu8yOwHFoec/видео.html
so you did 0 and 3 but not 2 (wings only) or 1 (center only). on a different perspective what do the actual fighter pilots say? I may be wrong but I thought navey found 2 bags was sweet spot (to routinely use). Not saying never drop them, but I seem to remimber that to get range and time two bags was worth the aero penalty (exclusive of dog fighting ). BVR fighting may be different somtimes.
remember that if fighters did not see "combat " the navy wanted the fuel tanks back (they are expensive ) unlike in dcs.
Fredrick Nietzsche 1) expensive??? I guess u need cheap biodegradeable drop tanks (like degrades in a month after out of manufacturing factory)
2) pleh... dat's why fighters like advanced super hornets have conformal fuel tanks; aerodynamically improved, can't get rid of cuz they're intergrated, not so bad performance loss bcuz of lower drag
I feel like your missing the main point :D it dosent need 300 tests under diff conditions, The point of this vid imo was to show that if you have bags on you WILL see a considerable reduction in air frame performance. Now you could be Baron Von Richthofen reincarnated and capable if kicking anyone's ass with 3 bags and a donkey strapped to your 15 but by not hitting the single drop bag key-bind you ARE intentionally handicapping yourself. Take bags, use them to gain altitude and positional advantage but once the safety's are off and the battle is on then every pilot worth his wings (be it virtual or IRL) will be looking to capitalize on every advantage and mitigate every disadvantage available to him. In a 15 the first step of this process will and should always be dumping those bags! Even the Red Baron himself got his ass shot down :D
Grinkle agreed. Red Baron got shot by mudspike though and without bags :) That is when you take your fighter down on the deck and do CAS.
Mensch Mannfred, das hättest du wissen müssen!
If i would be a real pilot, I‘d drop tanks, win the fight, rtb and apollogize to the air boss for the lost aluminium, because whiskey charlie ;-)
My main point with Richtofen was even the best aces can catch a bullet ;) the only way they avoid it for as long as they do is by doing everything in your power to make the fight as unfair in your advantage as possible :)
You're testing F-15 with 11.6 tons of fuel vs F-15 with 6.1 ton of fuel. Total max t/o weight is 30.8 tons. Just stop. Think.
As for the drop tanks, if you're caught with pants down and tanks full, drop them. If not, don't. That's my opinion on the subject.
It would be more practical if the fuel tanks were incorporated into the airframe at the same level with the wings instead of hanging down as it does now. This way the aircraft does not have to jettison the fuel tanks in order to go into attack mode.
The external fuel tanks as they are now prevent the F-15 from doing a roll maneuver without difficulty since it makes the aircraft bottom heavy.
plus, dropping the tanks wins the hearts and minds of the people by providing a lifetime supply of sturdy boats: images.ehowa.com/vietnamdroptanks/vietnamdroptanks2.jpg
lol
you did not account for the time the engines need to get to full power.
I did but I'm not sure can explain how in text
In any experiment, as long as you keep all variables constant except the one you want to measure, your results will be accurate. Since the engines have the same spool-up time regardless of drop tanks, and since Cap kept initial throttles constant and did the exact same spool-up procedure both times, the added times will essentially cancel each other out in the results.
Evan Boone yea you‘re right didn‘t think of that
:( u want to be zapped?
But dropping tanks is unrealistic.
romeo r yeah, that's why they're called keep tanks
They are only dropped in emergencies. If they dropped tanks every time they got into combat they would be out of tanks within the week. As they are very expensive and limited.
They are a lot cheaper than a new plane, and training a new pilot to fly it. They drop them when going into combat. If you can't afford drop tanks you can't afford an air force.
You're comment has no basis in reality. In actual practice, tanks are almost never dropped. Go look it up.
Again. They are extremely limited, even in the US military.
romeo r in actual practice the US hasn't faced a serious contender for its air superiority since Vietnam. Of course you don't drop your tanks if you're lobbing slammers at some rustbucket helicopters
First!