Fawning appears like a safe state to others & An autistic’s person’s safe state is often experienced as a trauma response That really resonates with me. I’ve found many of times I’ve made “friends” the most uncomfortable is when I did feel relaxed and safe around them, and I likely let my mask slip and some of the ol’ autism spilled out and they experienced a sense of repulsion in reaction to me being autistic. I learned to fawn better until my mask crumbled and I found out I was autistic. I taught myself to see those negative reactions as the catalyst to stop being around people who wouldn’t be able to handle autistic me. 🙂
I'm in my 70's. What damage has a lifetime of fawning done? What do I want, need, what are my passions? I have no idea. I was never allowed to (or felt I would be allowed to) express a want, need or passion that might not be acceptable to the people around me. I got stomped on really early. I've suppressed myself for so many years that I can no longer access the self before the trauma. I had to be what others wanted me to be--it was dangerous not to be. When I finally told my last remaining family member and my estranged husband that I have been diagnosed as autistic the silence was deafening. That's not what they want me to be, so they refuse to acknowledge it. I'm working on liking myself the way I am. Anyone who tries to tell you that it's not healthy to be alone all time has no idea how devastating being around people who can't accept you can be.
I hear you🫶🏻🫶🏻🫶🏻. If I’m asked , “what do you want to do, eat, go?” I’m paralyzed. I have no idea. I’ve never been allowed to ???? I’ve only been a servant. Anticipating and fulfilling the needs of those who attach themselves to me. I love solitude and nature. I wish for you peace🫶🏻 I am 59. Self diagnosed about 1 yr ago after my grandson was diagnosed. I went into super research mode to support him. I found me in the process. I have assessment in August.
I'm a late diagnosed 57 of age So well put Orion my compliments It made me realise what I have done to myself all those years, and I cried over it Thank you for the lesson 🙏🏽
"Go along to get along." So hard to learn NOT to do what works so well to survive. Honestly, Covid lockdown was a huge gift for my neurodivergent family. Not being able to go and do all the things for everyone else all the time, finally helped me realize which of those societal requirements I enjoyed and which I hated and were not necessary. Refusing everything helped me see who I really was.
Thank you for this. And for me tonight this was perfect timing. Trying to un learn decades of fawning. You're so right, it's very harmful and we do get abused. Then apologize and appease our abusers
Fawning is the bane of my life!! I feel like I can't trust myself to not do it around people I haven't met before - my brain calls it "making a good impression" but it's really fawning
Listening to this gives me a sick to my stomach feeling. 😫💔😢💙💞👊👊. This cannot believe this is what I’ve been doing for 60 years. On top of other stressors that make the fawning ramped up to nth degree. Who am I ????
I am the queen of fawning! I had a bully step dad, and my whole family decided my great Aunt had 'spoiled' me while I was in her care, (18 months to 5 when I went to school) so I guess I was considered a brat and treated as such. So sd for little me back then, and now I fawn all over everyone. I've had some terrible relationships with friends who don't get me, then betray me or whatever. It is awful Orion! I didn't even know I was doing it until last year - and I'm 53 now. I don't know how to switch it off really, but I'm glad I recognise it, it helps me decide who my friends are in a way. I could be here all day writing about the ways it has messed with me! Thank you for speaking on this - I personally love psychology. :D
“If you have an opinion or belief that’s different, you’re wrong. You’re gone.” YUP. Been ostracized over and over especially among other women for this. And very nervous about content creation because it absolutely requires an amount of fawning. Also, your point about forming your opinions using logic- Often times people automatically assume any opinion held by a woman is based on emotion just because hormones 🤦♀️
Yep. About 5 yrs ago a dr told me all my issues were hormones and wanted to put me on drugs. I told her I must have been in menopause since I was about 3. My symptoms have been consistent. It was her turn for the blank stare. My turn for the eye roll.
This! It's so insidious. As an undiagnosed child in the playground, I was the one who constantly turned an end of the skipping rope so others could jump, but never jumped myself. Shift forward a few years and I'm a still undiagnosed young adult at a house party I didn't want to be at - washing the dishes & clearing up other people's vomit. Then, I married a narcissist ...
I see nd children in my family being approved of only when they fawn. I see the pain in their eyes in every photo where they’re shown off in their sweet submissive loving fawning misery. I am grateful that that either wasn’t required of me as a child or was given up as hopeless. I can’t imagine growing up fearing the loss of your parents' love if you fail to play the toxic positivity game. For myself I only recall seriously fawning in adult relationships. I’m only this moment understanding why my personal life was so fubar. I’m not stupid but I got myself into very dangerous places by fawning, and it took decades alone to move past that. I used to think my life would have been better if I could have fawned better though that’s not what I called it in my head. It seems I was better off when I was my own abrasive cynical fractious self. Um anyway, this will take a while to process. Thanks again for helping me figure out what my brain is doing.
As a mom of an autistic son and finding out in myself where he gets it from, learning about other's experiences with their autism really helps. We are very fact driven and direct to each other. My son gets more blunt and is higher than myself on the spectrum. I am undiagnosed right now but the signs are all there. I was told my my very kind hearted dad when I was young, that I dance to the beat of a different drum. A rhythm no one else can hear. Logic is my friend and leads to logical conclusions but other's can't hear what I mean. And at 44 years old, I am tired of trying to help people understand. I feel more jaded but it's coming closer to peace and calm for me. I'll take inner peace over other's understanding me any day now. It's helpful with my son's diagnosis to help me see past the raging ADHD I was diagnosed with to see the 30% straight up autistic detailed noticing of absolutely everything. It leads to an internal war frankly. This is where I'm struggling now. An Audi-HDer I guess is what I am. Not sure how that's supposed to be spelled 😅 Thanks for bringing a seasoned mature view to the experience. I appreciate the parent view. My son was so different than his two brothers who primarily only have ADHD. The Autism overshadows his slight ADHD. Ah neuro-diversity 😃👍 It helps bring 5hings into perspective though. Thanks for giving us a voice! Love the DJ effects on this video. Very cool. I'm in the USA so I missed hearing your radio days. Have a great week all!
I am a recently late diagnosed, at age 47, autistic ADHDr and absolutely have no idea what’s me anymore and what’s my mimicking fawning response. I have been trying to unravel that and the more I look back on my life I truly think I may not ever know fully because I’ve been doing it for so long and all of my childhood and tween and teen years and I did it all through my adulthood and I mostly do it now, though lately, I am trying to catch myself and pay attention to my feelings and my stomach tightening up or really listening to my small inner voice that is whispering I don’t want to do this thing or I am really tired or say no and turn it down etc. I feel that mimicking and not wanting any sort of stress in the group or between me and another person and the internal stress and pain it causes me I may never fully get to a place where I never fawn and mimic and be a chameleon because in some ways that being a chameleon is me and that’s been me for decades. And I would rather do that than feel the stress pain sometimes.
Ignore your own needs in order to address the need of others. 100% me. Edit,: The thing about avoiding differences. As well as being an aspie i have physical disabilities. When I'm out and about, in a coffee shop for instance, I'll be sitting there and there will be a mother sitting with her child and the child will be staring because i look different. The mother gets embarrassed and tells the kid to stop staring because it's rude, and i might be offended, instead of letting them ask questions. And thus the fear around differences is passed on
I have high support needs and I feel this so much. I can't not TRY to please my carers in some way. Changing your beliefs for others was a complex problem growing up. I have 50 million different views and opinions. Gotta think of them all!❤
At the very end you talked about recognizing fawn response as a neurotypical and trying to pull them out. I have a strong warning about that from dealing with an abusive narcissistic husband and friend. It ended up being very dangerous, even life threatening for me when they used love bombing to get me to be honest. There was a very dishonest therapist that was wrapped around Karl's finger as HE feigned being the victim. It came back at me later like a hurricane mixed with a tsunami. I learned not to talk at all. I have been shutdown for over three years now. I don't think I am coming back. I have no trust in humanity after a life time of layers upon layers of abuse. I did try to express my needs which were always ignored. In fact, telling them I NEEDED safety and to stop being screamed at, held down, and controlled made them do it more. No one stopped anyone. It was a group effort to silence and end me. BTW, I am 61 years old now with zero support or resources.
Right there with you at 52. Thing is, I have zero F’s to give anymore. Hurt so many times, isolated and now…just really really angry. Sadly, I passed this on to my daughter BUT I recognize it, and am doing all I can to help her recognize it too…before she finds herself in my situation. Much ❤ to you.
I’m 53, and at this stage, realising just how unfamiliar I am with how I work. Light bulb moment! Fawning😢. How can I challenge something if I’m not aware that I’m doing it? Thanks, Orion - this was an enlightening episode for me (someone recently aware that I am autistic).
Omg this is a 💡moment for me, Orion. I've been in constant, internal conflict throughout my life to stay in situations and appear friendly (fawning) that cause me stress. Acute, physical, stress. Always to fit in with People and What They Need From Me. Developed over years and countless messages that's what is needed if I'm to be accepted. Yes - it's a survival response. I like the word you used "appeasing". That's exactly it. People-appeasing, not people-pleasing ❤
This gives me a lot to think about. I’m currently self-diagnosed…. Or I don’t know if I’d even say that, because I question whether my self-diagnosis is valid…. In any case, flight mode is definitely a go-to for me in social situations, but in professional situations, I definitely am a fawner, and in a way, I thought that might be evidence of me NOT being autistic, because until recently, I did not view people-pleasing as an autistic characteristic! But as I watched this and thought about it more, I’m realizing that apologizing when others should be apologizing to me is NOT an example of good social skills.
This was a really good episode. Thank you so much for this. Although we are quite sober after listening to this. We are masking very much, so, we fawn a lot. The level of frustration that later on develops over the fawning behavior which does not actually aligns with our goals makes us more then often miserable. Depressed, exhausted, angry. Thank you so much for explaining the concept so calmly and in detail. Excellent episode.
Excellent points, so important to realize we are in stress response when fawning. The polyvagal theory that therapists love to use doesn’t address fawning, which lots of us are doing while in their office. Hard to find help for trauma. I think the most dangerous thing to people has always been 52:46 other people, when we lived in caves and now. The “social” nature that supposedly allowed Homo sapiens to survive and thrive has always been dangerous to women and anyone different. So instead of a sabertooth tiger we can just picture some power-hungry empathy-deficient male in charge of our group. I think humans murdered the Neanderthals out of existence because cruelty seems built in to some humans, and it’s a heritable brain-based difference. The deficient empathy circuits are known and seen on various scans according to my psychiatrist. I haven’t done a deep dive on this yet. Anyway, thank you for another great video. That most masking is fawning is so important to recognize, and you were one of the first to say it because of course!
Have you considered sharing cuts, short sections of your videos so it's easier to grasp each concept and examples one at a time? Your practical, first person perspective is most useful to me, and I have to listen 2 or 3 times to each section, then try to grasp the whole list, etc. This is only possible because you already did this job perfectly preparing the video, so I thought uploading the sections as shorts may be easy while editing and make your great and AFAIS unique work easier to appreciate for a bigger audience. Thanks a lot for your channel!
You know with you talking about fawning and what it means it makes so much sense to me now like if I go out with a group of girls and they’re all drinking and I don’t drink, but then they think that I am drunk even though I haven’t even had a sip Just because I seem to take on the way that they’re acting as well. I never really thought about why I did that until learning about fawning as an autistic person and trying to mask and blend in.
Thank you. But how can we possibly avoid calming people down when we need so much to be in a peacefull ambiance? I find it hard to change this, specially when everyone seems concerned in expressing their own emotions without any care for others, for the impact that they could make.
I’ve seen so many of your videos but you teach me something new every time. Knoweldge is power right. Your podcasts are are my favourites. I relate to so much on this one.
Listened all way through! Great explanation Orion but also worth having awareness that a lifetime of FFFF can also lead to a tendency to reactive behaviours in adult ASD that show up as impatience, bluntness, loudness, meltdowns, sulking and anger. Masking often disguises it in public situations but (spouses) and loved one's have to FFFF to maintain some calm. I understand why you need to present this perspective but it does have another side. Would love to hear ND and NT thoughts on this because we need to find solutions together!
My heart aches. I’m a massive fawner . I didn’t know there was a name for it. 😢😢😢 soul crushing when the ones who by definition of the relationship should have my back…. I fawn to survive. I’m crushed. I actually thought finding out what is wrong with “ME” it would get easier. Once again the joke is on me. The joke is me.‼️‼️‼️ my cousin was right. Growing up he referred to me as the R word. I’m just crushed 😢😢😢
20:01 That's something that gets to me. I do have different opinions, but I adjust my opinions with information. I have many questions and I know that I have had a different lived experience and access to information than any other person I speak to, but most people seem incapable of grasping that and take personal offense to anyone who has built their opinions on a different experience than their own. Nevermind trying to understand why I or anyone else have come to the conclusions they have, if you aren't already of the same opinion it's because you're a bad person apparently.
Great vid tysm for this I just got diagnosed with AuDHD 🩷 I refuse to live and adjust myself to NT's. I am depressed and exhausted. My brother called me a NPD because I no longer fawn to societies ideas etc. Hurts like hell he called me that but I now know to keep away.
I'd wager our sabertooth tiger is capitalism ;) I say as I am currently writing a fawning, groveling, and apologetic text to my boss who fired me out of nowhere for a minor misinterpretation without attempting to reach out and consult with me regarding their concerns first while I fret about how the fuck I'm gonna possibly pay rent or afford food this month.
Good chat. Always valid in my life fella. I don’t have the energy or desire to please people. I’m a bit of a truth bombscare for most. Very helpful though. Too helpful 🧐🫣😮💨😂 💙🏴
Truth Bombscare . Yep. But it’s odd , I’ve been asked my view on the most interesting topics. I’m known that I will give you the truth. Right down to the bigger in your nose. I’ve had many “ did I say that out loud?!” Moments. Those are the ones that get away from me. Truth Bombscare😁 Pure honesty. It’s a despised quality and desirable one 🤔 🧐 💭 .
Orion, I truly appreciate your podcast. It is truly helping me out and really looking at myself and hopefully I can start making some positive changes for myself.
I’m still terrible at fawning with my care team who are all NT to stop confrontations that I don’t cope with it’s awful I can’t be myself I also freeze/shutdown and go mute in confrontations I don’t know what to do I just feel panic it’s awful.
I am SO guilty of this! In fact, I actually sought outside help because I was being bullied as an adult, avoid conflict, and could not figure out why I am such a damn people pleaser and why I couldn’t be my true self before it was suggested by an expert that my adult son may have Asperger’s and learning about my other adult son who is also neurodivergent with adhd. 💯 relate
I am not perfect at not fawning, but I do try to not do it at home and not expect My autistic loved ones to fawn. If I suspect they're falling into fawning, I'll stop and ask them. Do you really want that or are you fawning? You don't have to do that here. You don't have to answer right now, etc.
I am curious about your hat. Is your studio cold? I'm confused because your shirt has short sleeves. I wonder because sometimes my body has trouble regulating temperature and i wonder if that's an Autism thing.
So this is interesting. I’m resisting the need to apologize for being so “ dramatic “ in my comments. Apologizing for being honest For being Me I’ve commented in the past then deleted it . Staying in the shadows is what I’ve had to do. The night before I watched this content I had a HUGE interaction with someone. I finally apologized profusely for being how I am. I promised to do better to be less how I am. The person thanked me for promising to do better. 😵💫 😵💫😵💫😵💫😵💫😵💫😵💫😵💫😵💫😵💫😵💫😵💫😵💫. This person is vague/ demanding. A mind blowing combination for me. I keep telling him I am still not a mind reader. So much silent screaming. Yet I hold the responsibility when I get it wrong. Almost 45 yrs of survival in this Relationship . Although I think we made progress that night. Not without consequence to my system. I’m just so exhausted. This was one of the most pivotal videos I’ve watched. I am textbook chronic fawning . The other person was textbook how not to interact with autistic person. You described our interaction as if you had observed us personally. Thank you Orien!!!!! Your research and the way you present the information is brilliant. You are helping so many. Your son is blessed to have you. As are all who tune in‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️
My 18 yr old does this and when I helped her stand up for herself…the group that was used to her ‘fawning’ was appalled at her and ruthlessly ostracized and smeared her at school. To say I’m excited for graduation is an understatement!! Time to move on with better understanding, Thank You for this!! I’ll have her watch this video as it will affirm her in her new journey🥰
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Fawning appears like a safe state to others &
An autistic’s person’s safe state is often experienced as a trauma response
That really resonates with me.
I’ve found many of times I’ve made “friends” the most uncomfortable is when I did feel relaxed and safe around them, and I likely let my mask slip and some of the ol’ autism spilled out and they experienced a sense of repulsion in reaction to me being autistic. I learned to fawn better until my mask crumbled and I found out I was autistic. I taught myself to see those negative reactions as the catalyst to stop being around people who wouldn’t be able to handle autistic me. 🙂
I'm in my 70's. What damage has a lifetime of fawning done? What do I want, need, what are my passions? I have no idea. I was never allowed to (or felt I would be allowed to) express a want, need or passion that might not be acceptable to the people around me. I got stomped on really early. I've suppressed myself for so many years that I can no longer access the self before the trauma. I had to be what others wanted me to be--it was dangerous not to be. When I finally told my last remaining family member and my estranged husband that I have been diagnosed as autistic the silence was deafening. That's not what they want me to be, so they refuse to acknowledge it. I'm working on liking myself the way I am. Anyone who tries to tell you that it's not healthy to be alone all time has no idea how devastating being around people who can't accept you can be.
I relate to every word you wrote. I am 61 years old.
I hear you🫶🏻🫶🏻🫶🏻. If I’m asked , “what do you want to do, eat, go?” I’m paralyzed. I have no idea. I’ve never been allowed to ???? I’ve only been a servant. Anticipating and fulfilling the needs of those who attach themselves to me. I love solitude and nature. I wish for you peace🫶🏻 I am 59. Self diagnosed about 1 yr ago after my grandson was diagnosed. I went into super research mode to support him. I found me in the process. I have assessment in August.
Aw, I hope u r doing well now
🫶
Relate, relate. relate ….. 💞💙💞💙🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻👊👊
I'm a late diagnosed 57 of age
So well put Orion my compliments
It made me realise what I have done to myself all those years, and I cried over it
Thank you for the lesson 🙏🏽
As a neurotypical person with autistic friends I am fascinated with your podcasts. I have learned sooo much from you. Thanks!
"Go along to get along." So hard to learn NOT to do what works so well to survive. Honestly, Covid lockdown was a huge gift for my neurodivergent family. Not being able to go and do all the things for everyone else all the time, finally helped me realize which of those societal requirements I enjoyed and which I hated and were not necessary. Refusing everything helped me see who I really was.
I appreciate your passionate advocacy. While I agree that fawning is pleasant to others, it also robs them of truly knowing you.
I think fawning can help you survive. But it becomes a habit and then you do it when it isn't necessary.
Thank you for this. And for me tonight this was perfect timing. Trying to un learn decades of fawning. You're so right, it's very harmful and we do get abused. Then apologize and appease our abusers
Fawning is the bane of my life!! I feel like I can't trust myself to not do it around people I haven't met before - my brain calls it "making a good impression" but it's really fawning
Nutrient-dense content. I have to come back & listen to these again.
⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️'s
No words can tell how much I liked this one. Relatable, relatable, relatable.
Listening to this gives me a sick to my stomach feeling. 😫💔😢💙💞👊👊. This cannot believe this is what I’ve been doing for 60 years. On top of other stressors that make the fawning ramped up to nth degree. Who am I ????
I agree my autistic brain doesn’t understand a lot of things about how our world works. I definitely factor in feedback from others to make decisions
I am the queen of fawning! I had a bully step dad, and my whole family decided my great Aunt had 'spoiled' me while I was in her care, (18 months to 5 when I went to school) so I guess I was considered a brat and treated as such. So sd for little me back then, and now I fawn all over everyone. I've had some terrible relationships with friends who don't get me, then betray me or whatever. It is awful Orion! I didn't even know I was doing it until last year - and I'm 53 now. I don't know how to switch it off really, but I'm glad I recognise it, it helps me decide who my friends are in a way. I could be here all day writing about the ways it has messed with me! Thank you for speaking on this - I personally love psychology. :D
“If you have an opinion or belief that’s different, you’re wrong. You’re gone.” YUP. Been ostracized over and over especially among other women for this. And very nervous about content creation because it absolutely requires an amount of fawning.
Also, your point about forming your opinions using logic- Often times people automatically assume any opinion held by a woman is based on emotion just because hormones 🤦♀️
Yep. About 5 yrs ago a dr told me all my issues were hormones and wanted to put me on drugs. I told her I must have been in menopause since I was about 3. My symptoms have been consistent. It was her turn for the blank stare. My turn for the eye roll.
this is excellent, thank you. no wonder we're so misunderstood, when a trauma response is viewed as positive. eek
This! It's so insidious. As an undiagnosed child in the playground, I was the one who constantly turned an end of the skipping rope so others could jump, but never jumped myself. Shift forward a few years and I'm a still undiagnosed young adult at a house party I didn't want to be at - washing the dishes & clearing up other people's vomit. Then, I married a narcissist ...
This? What do you mean?
@@t-man5196 I mean that 'this' (what Orion talks about) is exactly my experience.
@@feralnonbinaryautistic huh, confusing
This entire video describes what I was doing throughout my entire 10 1/2 year narcissistic relationship.
Omgoodness!!!! You are spot on with your content. Painfully spot on. I’m in more distress than I thought
I see nd children in my family being approved of only when they fawn. I see the pain in their eyes in every photo where they’re shown off in their sweet submissive loving fawning misery. I am grateful that that either wasn’t required of me as a child or was given up as hopeless. I can’t imagine growing up fearing the loss of your parents' love if you fail to play the toxic positivity game.
For myself I only recall seriously fawning in adult relationships. I’m only this moment understanding why my personal life was so fubar. I’m not stupid but I got myself into very dangerous places by fawning, and it took decades alone to move past that. I used to think my life would have been better if I could have fawned better though that’s not what I called it in my head. It seems I was better off when I was my own abrasive cynical fractious self.
Um anyway, this will take a while to process. Thanks again for helping me figure out what my brain is doing.
As a mom of an autistic son and finding out in myself where he gets it from, learning about other's experiences with their autism really helps. We are very fact driven and direct to each other. My son gets more blunt and is higher than myself on the spectrum. I am undiagnosed right now but the signs are all there. I was told my my very kind hearted dad when I was young, that I dance to the beat of a different drum. A rhythm no one else can hear. Logic is my friend and leads to logical conclusions but other's can't hear what I mean. And at 44 years old, I am tired of trying to help people understand. I feel more jaded but it's coming closer to peace and calm for me. I'll take inner peace over other's understanding me any day now. It's helpful with my son's diagnosis to help me see past the raging ADHD I was diagnosed with to see the 30% straight up autistic detailed noticing of absolutely everything. It leads to an internal war frankly. This is where I'm struggling now. An Audi-HDer I guess is what I am. Not sure how that's supposed to be spelled 😅 Thanks for bringing a seasoned mature view to the experience. I appreciate the parent view. My son was so different than his two brothers who primarily only have ADHD. The Autism overshadows his slight ADHD. Ah neuro-diversity 😃👍 It helps bring 5hings into perspective though. Thanks for giving us a voice! Love the DJ effects on this video. Very cool. I'm in the USA so I missed hearing your radio days. Have a great week all!
I am a recently late diagnosed, at age 47, autistic ADHDr and absolutely have no idea what’s me anymore and what’s my mimicking fawning response. I have been trying to unravel that and the more I look back on my life I truly think I may not ever know fully because I’ve been doing it for so long and all of my childhood and tween and teen years and I did it all through my adulthood and I mostly do it now, though lately, I am trying to catch myself and pay attention to my feelings and my stomach tightening up or really listening to my small inner voice that is whispering I don’t want to do this thing or I am really tired or say no and turn it down etc. I feel that mimicking and not wanting any sort of stress in the group or between me and another person and the internal stress and pain it causes me I may never fully get to a place where I never fawn and mimic and be a chameleon because in some ways that being a chameleon is me and that’s been me for decades. And I would rather do that than feel the stress pain sometimes.
Ignore your own needs in order to address the need of others. 100% me.
Edit,: The thing about avoiding differences. As well as being an aspie i have physical disabilities. When I'm out and about, in a coffee shop for instance, I'll be sitting there and there will be a mother sitting with her child and the child will be staring because i look different. The mother gets embarrassed and tells the kid to stop staring because it's rude, and i might be offended, instead of letting them ask questions. And thus the fear around differences is passed on
I have high support needs and I feel this so much. I can't not TRY to please my carers in some way. Changing your beliefs for others was a complex problem growing up. I have 50 million different views and opinions. Gotta think of them all!❤
At the very end you talked about recognizing fawn response as a neurotypical and trying to pull them out. I have a strong warning about that from dealing with an abusive narcissistic husband and friend. It ended up being very dangerous, even life threatening for me when they used love bombing to get me to be honest. There was a very dishonest therapist that was wrapped around Karl's finger as HE feigned being the victim. It came back at me later like a hurricane mixed with a tsunami. I learned not to talk at all.
I have been shutdown for over three years now. I don't think I am coming back. I have no trust in humanity after a life time of layers upon layers of abuse. I did try to express my needs which were always ignored. In fact, telling them I NEEDED safety and to stop being screamed at, held down, and controlled made them do it more. No one stopped anyone. It was a group effort to silence and end me. BTW, I am 61 years old now with zero support or resources.
Right there with you at 52. Thing is, I have zero F’s to give anymore. Hurt so many times, isolated and now…just really really angry. Sadly, I passed this on to my daughter BUT I recognize it, and am doing all I can to help her recognize it too…before she finds herself in my situation. Much ❤ to you.
I'm 40 and I understand what you typed. I'm scared of everything and everyone at this point
I’m 53, and at this stage, realising just how unfamiliar I am with how I work. Light bulb moment! Fawning😢. How can I challenge something if I’m not aware that I’m doing it? Thanks, Orion - this was an enlightening episode for me (someone recently aware that I am autistic).
The psychologist Katie Morton on RUclips has some great podcast content where she answers exactly this. Highly recommended.
I recently learned that the sabre toothed tiger was actually a type of bear 🐻 🤔
Great podcast! Love this format of your content. This is way too relatable.
It literally makes you the best waiter in the world lol
Ask me how I know. Great video, M8.
oh, im sorry, my mistake. (I say that often, even if I don't need to, its a pisser. burnt in to my mind.)
Omg this is a 💡moment for me, Orion. I've been in constant, internal conflict throughout my life to stay in situations and appear friendly (fawning) that cause me stress. Acute, physical, stress. Always to fit in with People and What They Need From Me. Developed over years and countless messages that's what is needed if I'm to be accepted. Yes - it's a survival response. I like the word you used "appeasing". That's exactly it. People-appeasing, not people-pleasing ❤
This gives me a lot to think about. I’m currently self-diagnosed…. Or I don’t know if I’d even say that, because I question whether my self-diagnosis is valid…. In any case, flight mode is definitely a go-to for me in social situations, but in professional situations, I definitely am a fawner, and in a way, I thought that might be evidence of me NOT being autistic, because until recently, I did not view people-pleasing as an autistic characteristic! But as I watched this and thought about it more, I’m realizing that apologizing when others should be apologizing to me is NOT an example of good social skills.
Got a LOT out of this as a neurotypical person with an autistic boyfriend. Thanks!
Great video! The differences are so f&*$%d up! Double-empathy problem strikes again!
This was a really good episode. Thank you so much for this. Although we are quite sober after listening to this. We are masking very much, so, we fawn a lot. The level of frustration that later on develops over the fawning behavior which does not actually aligns with our goals makes us more then often miserable. Depressed, exhausted, angry.
Thank you so much for explaining the concept so calmly and in detail. Excellent episode.
Excellent points, so important to realize we are in stress response when fawning. The polyvagal theory that therapists love to use doesn’t address fawning, which lots of us are doing while in their office. Hard to find help for trauma. I think the most dangerous thing to people has always been 52:46 other people, when we lived in caves and now. The “social” nature that supposedly allowed Homo sapiens to survive and thrive has always been dangerous to women and anyone different. So instead of a sabertooth tiger we can just picture some power-hungry empathy-deficient male in charge of our group. I think humans murdered the Neanderthals out of existence because cruelty seems built in to some humans, and it’s a heritable brain-based difference. The deficient empathy circuits are known and seen on various scans according to my psychiatrist. I haven’t done a deep dive on this yet. Anyway, thank you for another great video. That most masking is fawning is so important to recognize, and you were one of the first to say it because of course!
Have you considered sharing cuts, short sections of your videos so it's easier to grasp each concept and examples one at a time?
Your practical, first person perspective is most useful to me, and I have to listen 2 or 3 times to each section, then try to grasp the whole list, etc.
This is only possible because you already did this job perfectly preparing the video, so I thought uploading the sections as shorts may be easy while editing and make your great and AFAIS unique work easier to appreciate for a bigger audience.
Thanks a lot for your channel!
You know with you talking about fawning and what it means it makes so much sense to me now like if I go out with a group of girls and they’re all drinking and I don’t drink, but then they think that I am drunk even though I haven’t even had a sip Just because I seem to take on the way that they’re acting as well. I never really thought about why I did that until learning about fawning as an autistic person and trying to mask and blend in.
Thank you. But how can we possibly avoid calming people down when we need so much to be in a peacefull ambiance? I find it hard to change this, specially when everyone seems concerned in expressing their own emotions without any care for others, for the impact that they could make.
23:00 yes. 👍💯
I’ve seen so many of your videos but you teach me something new every time. Knoweldge is power right. Your podcasts are are my favourites. I relate to so much on this one.
Appreciate it.
Listened all way through! Great explanation Orion but also worth having awareness that a lifetime of FFFF can also lead to a tendency to reactive behaviours in adult ASD that show up as impatience, bluntness, loudness, meltdowns, sulking and anger. Masking often disguises it in public situations but (spouses) and loved one's have to FFFF to maintain some calm. I understand why you need to present this perspective but it does have another side. Would love to hear ND and NT thoughts on this because we need to find solutions together!
Cool hat
Yes, yes, yes. This explains a lot. Thank you !
That's a nice looking beanie you have on there! ☕🪓
My heart aches. I’m a massive fawner . I didn’t know there was a name for it. 😢😢😢 soul crushing when the ones who by definition of the relationship should have my back…. I fawn to survive. I’m crushed. I actually thought finding out what is wrong with “ME” it would get easier. Once again the joke is on me. The joke is me.‼️‼️‼️ my cousin was right. Growing up he referred to me as the R word. I’m just crushed 😢😢😢
20:01 That's something that gets to me. I do have different opinions, but I adjust my opinions with information. I have many questions and I know that I have had a different lived experience and access to information than any other person I speak to, but most people seem incapable of grasping that and take personal offense to anyone who has built their opinions on a different experience than their own. Nevermind trying to understand why I or anyone else have come to the conclusions they have, if you aren't already of the same opinion it's because you're a bad person apparently.
Great vid tysm for this I just got diagnosed with AuDHD 🩷 I refuse to live and adjust myself to NT's. I am depressed and exhausted. My brother called me a NPD because I no longer fawn to societies ideas etc. Hurts like hell he called me that but I now know to keep away.
I'd wager our sabertooth tiger is capitalism ;)
I say as I am currently writing a fawning, groveling, and apologetic text to my boss who fired me out of nowhere for a minor misinterpretation without attempting to reach out and consult with me regarding their concerns first while I fret about how the fuck I'm gonna possibly pay rent or afford food this month.
23:14 spot on i couldn't say no till recently
I've been watching your videos. You are a brilliant man.
This was a great topic and very enlightening 👍
Good chat. Always valid in my life fella. I don’t have the energy or desire to please people. I’m a bit of a truth bombscare for most. Very helpful though. Too helpful 🧐🫣😮💨😂
💙🏴
Truth Bombscare . Yep. But it’s odd , I’ve been asked my view on the most interesting topics. I’m known that I will give you the truth. Right down to the bigger in your nose.
I’ve had many “ did I say that out loud?!” Moments. Those are the ones that get away from me.
Truth Bombscare😁
Pure honesty. It’s a despised quality and desirable one 🤔 🧐 💭 .
Orion, I truly appreciate your podcast. It is truly helping me out and really looking at myself and hopefully I can start making some positive changes for myself.
I’m grateful to hear that. Thanks.
I’m still terrible at fawning with my care team who are all NT to stop confrontations that I don’t cope with it’s awful I can’t be myself I also freeze/shutdown and go mute in confrontations I don’t know what to do I just feel panic it’s awful.
Thankyou ❤ this is so powerful and resonates deeply ❤
Thank you for this! So much of it resonated with me.
No fawning zone!!
Hope Your family is healthy and healed✌️💛
I am SO guilty of this! In fact, I actually sought outside help because I was being bullied as an adult, avoid conflict, and could not figure out why I am such a damn people pleaser and why I couldn’t be my true self before it was suggested by an expert that my adult son may have Asperger’s and learning about my other adult son who is also neurodivergent with adhd. 💯 relate
Polyvagal theory.. so interesting!
I like your comparisons.
I am not perfect at not fawning, but I do try to not do it at home and not expect My autistic loved ones to fawn. If I suspect they're falling into fawning, I'll stop and ask them. Do you really want that or are you fawning? You don't have to do that here. You don't have to answer right now, etc.
26:01 I unfortunately deal with this a lot
❤
So good
49:55 can so relate! 😂
👍😊
36:50 100% Relate
I am curious about your hat. Is your studio cold? I'm confused because your shirt has short sleeves. I wonder because sometimes my body has trouble regulating temperature and i wonder if that's an Autism thing.
I was going to therapy for a while, but realized it wasn't getting me anywhere cause I was just people pleasing the therapist.
Seriously? Why!!!
Habit?
@@Catlily5 Yeah, probably.
@@nannywhumpers5702 Yeah, I have done that with therapists. I still do sometimes. But I also show my real self sometimes.
@@Catlily5 That's got to be hard. I haven't tried again, life got busy for a bit and is just settling down.
@@nannywhumpers5702 If you tell the therapist you tend to fawn a good one will help you get past it.
The podcast is called My Friend Autism, and you say “Welcome my friend” as your greeting… Gasp, how did you know I was autistic?
I’m comfortable around other neurodivergent people but I’m uncomfortable around neurotypical people.
AND PEOPLE WONDER WHY WE’RE ALEXITHYMIC
So this is interesting. I’m resisting the need to apologize for being so “ dramatic “ in my comments. Apologizing for being honest
For being Me
I’ve commented in the past then deleted it . Staying in the shadows is what I’ve had to do.
The night before I watched this content I had a HUGE interaction with someone. I finally apologized profusely for being how I am. I promised to do better to be less how I am. The person thanked me for promising to do better. 😵💫 😵💫😵💫😵💫😵💫😵💫😵💫😵💫😵💫😵💫😵💫😵💫😵💫. This person is vague/ demanding. A mind blowing combination for me. I keep telling him I am still not a mind reader. So much silent screaming. Yet I hold the responsibility when I get it wrong. Almost 45 yrs of survival in this
Relationship . Although I think we made progress that night. Not without consequence to my system. I’m just so exhausted. This was one of the most pivotal videos I’ve watched. I am textbook chronic fawning . The other person was textbook how not to interact with autistic person. You described our interaction as if you had observed us personally. Thank you Orien!!!!! Your research and the way you present the information is brilliant. You are helping so many. Your son is blessed to have you. As are all who tune in‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️
Isn't fawning the goal of ABA 'therapy'?
My 18 yr old does this and when I helped her stand up for herself…the group that was used to her ‘fawning’ was appalled at her and ruthlessly ostracized and smeared her at school. To say I’m excited for graduation is an understatement!! Time to move on with better understanding, Thank You for this!! I’ll have her watch this video as it will affirm her in her new journey🥰