Could this be the BEST fight scene ever? TROY, Achilles vs Hector, Fight Scene Autopsy
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- Fight Scene Autopsy is back! This time we take a deep dive analysis of Achilles vs hector from the film TROY.
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#medievalmisconceptions
The difficulty with all of Achilles' mistakes in this fight is that it's almost entirely meant to be an insult to Hector, he's deliberately leaving himself open to show that he doesn't need to properly defend himself to beat Hector.
…Or to bait out attacks for him to counter
I tend to agree. One thing I always took away from this fight scene is that it was very clear Achilles was a significantly more skilled fighter even though Hector was the best the other side had. A lot of his flamboyant moves that left open possible issues was intentionally cocky. When you watch the whole movie, you truly understand the personality in which Achilles was presented and the moment he has no respect for his opponent, he's going to leave some openings he knows you can't take advantage of because you just aren't good enough.
It's an open faced taunt. Hector never had a real shot because Hector isn't on his level. He's just toying with him, basically. Letting the fight drag on longer than it needs to almost to maybe let Hector have a little dignity before ending it.
I do think the ending blow to the chest was more of a narrative blow. I think IRL, you just slash the throat and call it a day. Not so sure that part was super realistic, but even if he doesn't pierce the armor it's all over.
It's a pretty good fight scene having someone who is skilled face basically someone who is not only more skilled, but very cocky about how outmatched you are.
@@NintyPrime Hector knew he was dead before he went out there. I like how this movie showed why people would think Achilles was immortal based upon pure skill but if you kept it with the mythology that fight would have lasted 5 seconds. Achilles could have just walked up took the spear to the chest and ended Hectors existence since he was basically immortal.
@@brucebrucefasho oh I remember the movie well. Hector didn't even want this fight to happen. He already knew Achilles was as good as the whispers said he was and that his own reputation was inflated.
Whether or not the movie proved Achilles was immortal didn't matter - and that's what I loved about it. He didn't fight ever like he was immortal, but as if he never needed to be.
In the end it's just a movie of course, but a really loved the narrative.
Pretty much. Achilles, to the people, is someone akin to Hercules. He's a legendary fighter, and as good as Hector is he knows that he's till just a man. I honestly wish Shad would not go frame by frame to try and explain every movement, because the phrases of the fight are longer than that. You need to see a full exchange and then go back and watch in slow motion to see why things are done as they are. Still, an excellent breakdown.
Right from the IMDB page. Brad Pitt (Achilles) and Eric Bana (Hector) did not use stunt doubles for their epic duel. They made a gentlemen's agreement to pay for every accidental hit; $50 for each light blow and $100 for each hard blow. Pitt ended up paying Bana $750, and Bana didn't owe Pitt anything.
Also, Pitt tore his left Achilles tendon while filming. Poetic.
Palpatine: *Ironic*
Ironic unlike the Alanis morissette song
Also explains why they didn't wear helmets. If you let your multimillion-dollar marquee stars do their own stunts, you want the audience to know it's really them. Fun bit of "going through the fourth wall" that both the 'real' fight and the cinematic one are being played to an audience.
But around 13:32 they don't look like Brad Pitt or Eric Bana at all. So maybe some stunt doubles for some more difficult stuff? Or maybe they were left in editing? Since I doubt all of it was made in 1 take, so there could be takes with stunt doubles that director/editor thought looked better than those done by the actors?
@@jannegrey593 For a lot of the most athletically demanding stuff like that jump attack they had to use doubles to pull it off. Even though the armor and weapons are props they are still heavy, and just look at the damn lift of that dude. That's a good 30+ inches of the ground in all that gear.
Yeah big thing to consider is Achilles is not only invincible (outside of his heel) but totally unhinged in this fight, his cousin has been recently killed by Hector and he is taunting him regularly throughout the fight. He wants to embarass Hector in front of his family, not simply go for a quick kill. Which I think narratively is a good way to explain why he's using such unconventional tactics.
He isn't actually invincible though. This movie doesn't depict the mythological hero Achilles, but an actual mortal man and how the myth of his invincibility came to be.
he is also a demi-god, blessed by the gods, and capable of fighting in ways we could never copy.
stronger, faster, quicker reflexes, and a natural ability noone could ever match.
@@jamham69 Once again, that's what people thought was true, but isn't. Nothing supernatural happens in the entire movie.
“Cousin”
@@crsmith6226 Mm yes definitely a cousin and absolutely not the only relationship they could use without it being gay
honestly shameful they changed that
My personal explanation for Achilles's strange moves (like putting the shield behind his head) is that this isn't just a fight, he wants to really humiliate Hector for what he's done to Patroclus. He even says so before the fight, and for most of it we see that it really is like he is just toying with his food: even though Hector does have the technical "advantage", Achilles has no problem dealing with it, and the moment Hector gets a blow in and scratches his armour, Achilles gets serious and almost kills Hector twice in a row. He throws away his shield not because of honor, but because Hector really isn't a threat to him, and he won't let people say Hector was bested because Achilles had the upper hand with a shield or proper footing: he wants everyone to know that Hector never stood a chance, regardless of equipment. He kills Hector with Hector's own spear, which he himself decided to bring back into the fight
that’s a good one sir hat off for the wholesome analysis
though scientifically I can’t say it’s true cause didn’t watch the movie, and it’s 120% assumed,even, is not like the book
Toying n humiliation is what I got too.
I think you're right. Achilles opening line after all: "There are no pacts between lions and men." Achilles clearly doesn't see Hector on the same level.
Could some things have been better? Absolutely!
But you hit the nail on the head. We are supposed to get the sense of a vastly superior, absolutely enraged, blodthirsty, vengeful and spiteful character. He wants to destroy everything that Hectors IS in one single duel. Not only killing him, but destorying his entire being.
On top of this we should consider that Achilles is supposed to be a mythical warrior. Hes not just supposed to be a good or great warrior, but the greatest of all time (litterally almost a godly warrior), so it sort of makes sense to portray him performing unconventional moves.
@@msDanielp369superman punch / spear thrust is similar to what we see in current MMA in the former (superman punch)
I like this scene for its pseudo fantasy element showcasing Hector's expert but mundane skill against Achille's nearly supernatural finesse. It sells this very well even if its more theatrical than real.
yeah i think the best way to describe Achilles in this fight is he is playing with his food. until hector scrapes his armor then he goes off.
@@Fleato True. Achilles realizes he can't be quite so casual with someone of Hector's mastery.
I prefer that idea, but watching the movie, they seemed to try to remove so much of the original Greek fantasy elements that I never considered a fantasy element for this fight
@@MegaKnight2012 do you mean mythological and religious elements? They might be fantastical to us but mythology is not the same as fantasy.
It would've been better if they just didn't have the shields ahah
Achilles could have thought he had more of an advantage without a helmet than Hector, so that’s part of why he does it, then Hector wouldn’t want to look “weak” or wouldn’t want to be viewed as having an unfair advantage (these feelings overriding his good sense and logic) so that is why he does it.
I concur.
Manly men doing manly stupidity.
Well if it's taking in account Mythology/Legends about Achilles, he doesn't need a helmet since his only weak spot was his heel where his mother held him when he was dipped into the River Styx.
@josephavenetti He took the helmet off because Hector had killed Achilles' cousin thinking he was him. He literally says, "Now you'll know who you're fighting" when he takes the helmet off.
@@luxintenebris1776 But as Shad points out, following that scene he could have donned his helmet again, he throws it away as an insult implying he doesn't need it.
@@morrigankasa570 Indeed, this movie is based on the Homer's tale of the conflict, and as such its safe to assume that all the mythological aspects of Homer's work are present.
Shad: "So far, Hector's made less mistakes than Achilles here."
That's an understatement in the movie since Hector's often the smarter fighter, who sadly gets overridden a lot. He knew bringing Helen to Troy was a bad idea, he was smart enough not to base strategies on "bird signs", he was smart enough not to get butthurt over petty matters and let his people suffer for that, he was smart enough to know that attacking the Greeks with their backs to the sea would unify them, but Priam overruled him, and he was smart know that his death would hasten Troy's demise because his father's crappy judgment would doom Troy, though thankfully Hector's wife heeded his words and made it out with their son and some survivors.
Honestly if you look where ancient meaning of hero (one who does great things) and modern meaning (one who does good things) meet, you should find that Hector is one of the starting points. Illiad shows him in exceedingly good light (dutiful son, good husband, good brother-in-law, brave fighter, excellent commander etc.) and the only tarnish on his image from modern viewpoint was stealing Achilles's armor off the body of Patroklos (which was common at the time).
and that's how rome was created lol.
@@Artanis99 You're forgetting the part where he himself had no intention of returning Patroklos body to the Aecheans and actually intended to mutilate it.
@@undertakernumberone1 Still pretty usual fare as far as classical heroes go. And as I said Hector is a start on the path to modern meaning of hero. Nearly everyone prominent in both camps had done that and worse.
Afaik "bird signs" were seen by the ancient Greeks and Romans as signs from the gods and a way to foresee the future, the Iliad certainly has a lot of involvement from the gods in more obvious ways, so basing strategies on "bird signs", literally divine signs, isn't by itself dumb in the original context nor would _everyone_ nowadays think of it as bad practice, as a lot of modern people are also religious.
Fun fact: In the opening fight scene, Brad Pitt actually injured his ankle doing the signature jump attack (at full sprint) and delayed filming for months while he recovered. Cinematically pleasing for sure...but if you twist/break your ankle in melee combat it doesn't bode well for your chances.
Thats commitment to the character
"Get up, Achilles. I'll not have my glory stolen by a flamboyant blunder!" *trips over rock to even the fight*
-Hector, probably
He injured his ankle? His Achillies tendon maybe
A classic Achilles move
The complaint about the helmet is weird. Hector killed Achilles' friend who was fighting and pretending to be Achilles to give a morale boost to the Greeks. The unmasking was specifically a dig at Hector thinking he fought and killed Achilles. As for the fight itself, Achilles knows of his divine blessing and is mostly screwing around with Hector as a means of dishonoring Hector. Remember, this isn't a fight for honor, this is Achilles' revenge and he has no intention of letting Hector keep his dignity.
It was his cousin. (at least in the movie) but otherwise, yes. He did it explicitly to make a point to Hector.
He repeatedly said he understood it from a narrative standpoint but he’s not wrong in the at in all likelihood any well trained fighter in armor after showing their face would put the helmet back on
Achilles was explicitly not a demigod in this movie, nor was he invincible. Achilles flat out says so in the very beginning of the movie.
I think it's also a way of Achilles showing how confident and sure he is in his victory, how he feels completely unthreatened by Hector
@@fanghur he isn't a demigod in any version, his mother while supernatural wasn't a god. If remember in the Illiad he isn't even invulnerable and gets wounded at one point, the whole can only be hurt in the ankle seems to be a later thing, after all why would his mother get him new armour and a shield if he couldn't be hurt.l
The Hector gag at the beginning is great
Absolutely agree
I cringed most heartily.
I laughed off my ass when Hector Salamanca was behind the door
What the Heck-TOOOOR!
Too bad this was his weakest analysis of a fight scene to date
i think alot of the achilles not using his shield is supposed to be him trying to flex on hector and sort of taunt him, and alot of hector's failure to capitalize on openings was his fear of achilles
Achilles was in greek tales unwoundable, with exeption of back of one foot ( in german Achillesferse), so he could basicly fighting naked with a pair of partly armoured shoes. In ,Homers' tale ,War of Troy' he was killed by an arrow of prince Paris, which hurted his foot. In german Nibelungenlied the unwoundable hero Siegfried died of a spear thrown at the only woundable spot of his back.
I think, both Homer and the writer of Nibelungenlied simply wanted to tell their ,listeners'/ readers: Even with best armour you can be killed.
no, that's simply just a bad choreography and lack of knowledge of sword fighting, that's all. we can give crazy excuses to justify soundness of their actions but it doesn't change reality. If a knowledgeable person in this field says that this scene has flaws, it most probably does have flaws. Its clear that writers wanted to convey taunting aspect, and they did just that pretty well, but to say that all faults were deliberate is just silly. Still it was great scene for big audience, with awesome moments, and respectable amount of realism, but with some glaring flaws, evident for expert. Writers didn't, spent years and effort of thoroughly researching subject, for making short scene to target miniscule proportion of people. Its not a documentary on bronze age battles nor an accurate treatise on sword fighting, its expected to have some flaws
@@_Nomen_Nescio_ Agreed, its certainly explainable as that, but that's retroactively adding that in.
If he really wanted to show off how he was invincible, he could just fully drop his weapons and armour and bassically fist fight a guy with a sword cuz he cant hurt him anyways.
And what better way to really taunt and flex on someone.
"No no, you keep that pointy stick of yours"
And then just take all the hits as nothing happens
@@kharnthebetrayer8251 Perhaps he doesn't want his opponent to follow his example for the sake of "making it a fair fight" and drop his armour and weapons as well. Just imagine how it would look like if you went, full armour and with a spear and a sword, against a man dressed as a civilian (even if he is known as the best warrior alive and has willingly walked into the battlefield to challenge you). It'd just not be a good look for Hector, so he'd probably also take off his armour. While if Achilles _keeps_ his shield but simply doesn't use it, Hector will not likely think to do the same, he'll most probably not have much time to analyse it with a rational mind (he is very much afraid he will die by Achilles' weapons here), nor will he want to follow his example (again because he's afraid he'll die here).
Additionally, the shield is heavy, so if Achilles keeps it on him but out of the fight he is flexing his ability to beat Hector even with a nearly useless weight at his one hand. He can still use the shield's weight in his favour, as counterbalance for example, he just doesn't use it for it's intended, primary purpose: protection.
Of course, this is just an in-universe (so to speak) excuse for why _Achilles_ doesn't use his shield which works well for him, not so much for Hector though, and the real reason is most probably that the choreographer didn't know how to incorporate the shields into the fight.
In the movie they address this and Achilles says he isn’t invulnerable. Otherwise why would he bother with the armor. So for this version of the story Achilles is supposed to just be an incredibly skilled warrior above and beyond everyone else. Similar to an Olympic level athlete playing in a beer league. This fight is supposed to be a mix of Achilles being so angry and confident that he wants to completely embarrass Hector before killing him in front of all of Troy. Which ties well into the original story in a modern theatrical way. In the original story Hector actually tries to avoid fighting Achilles out of fear and once Hector is killed Achilles ties him to his chariot and drags his body around the city multiple times.
The fight is supposed to be representative of Hector fighting scared and Achilles fighting recklessly. They stylized parts to give it a more flowing interaction because they wanted it to be cinematic. The fight choreographer obviously had at least some experience with sword fighting and it appears that they had a lot of unarmed experience. Since many of the movements use momentum in ways you would expect in unarmed combat which were adapted to armed combat.
Movie did a good job of balancing theatrics with legitimate technique.
For this fight i always just assumed they went with the narrative that Achilles was just toying with Hector
Pretty much. Hector was exhausting himself from the start trying to survive, while Achilles was just having some fun against a worse fighter and making Hector look weak.
Lets also not forget Achilles is depicted strong enough to decapitate a Golden Apollo Statue with a Bronze sword, and throw spears lile a Roman Scorpion.
So we aldo need to calculate his inhuman demi god strengh that allows him to break speats with shield strikes, and the extra force in his stabs against shields that push people back. While any fit human couldnt.
It also explains why Hektor would dodge more knowing the incredible strengh in a direct attack of Achilles by booth having witness his incredible spear throw early, and having heared reports of it too.
Mixing that with Achilles taking this fight very personal where his goal is to hummiliate Hektor infront of his people and the Gods that he deliberately mixed in ellboestrikes as opposed to killing moves or slashes.
And only when Hektor actually overcomes his lion playing with his food act and lands the first hit on his armor ever that he fights serious.
Well, yes. This was done for dramatization effect, because in the story, - Hector was
not Achilles' match. Not even close. (but Memnon was). Hector just managed to really
piss Achilles off, and sign his death warrant in spades. Having that said, once they went
the spectacle route - choreography for Hector could've definitely been made more
competent, especially in the sword & shield segment of the scene.
Especially because in the first exchange(especially after their dialog beforehand), Achilles could tell that Hector went into this fight basically knowing he was going to die and is focusing on defense. So any unpredictable moves Achilles makes will more likely be pulled away from rather than having an exploit taken advantage of.
About the helmet thing. It's actually really good because it helps tell the story. Achilles is extremely arrogant and he thinks he doesn't need the helmet so he is comfortable with taking it off. You can tell during the rest of the fight how Achilles is doing all these flashy moves because he is just that much better than everyone else. In his mind he's already won, so he just has to make sure to win with style. On the other hand, Hector is very straight forward and honorable, so he also takes off the helmet to be even with Achilles. That short exchange is a great character moment for both of them
Well also it was bc his cousin was killed by hector impersonating him hence the line "now you know who you are fighting"
Achilles doesn't wear helmet due to wanting to make sure hector knew it was him the whole time.
how can the uploader miss things like that
@@msDanielp369 if you mean Shad, I'd like to point out that he mentions that point early in the video, where he points out that Achilles could have put his helmet back on after showing his face to Hector, thus removing justification for Hector removing his own helmet.
I think it’s super important to know when going into this fight, that for Achilles, winning wasn’t enough. He was embarrassed that people thought hector could actually kill him, angry that hector killed his friend. He couldn’t kill him quickly, he wanted both the Greeks the Trojans to know how much better he was than hector he wanted to show domination. That no matter what technical skill hector Achilles could still defeat him whenever he wants, and I think it proves it when Achilles breastplate is scratched because it’s like he gets serious after and kills him soon after.
Yeah. What makes this fight so good is the lead up. Achilles not only though it was an absolute joke that anyone thought Hector was his equal, Hector did kill someone he loved. He wanted to not only put on display how much better he was, but to send a message. Yeah, I don't even have to fight perfect. I can taunt you all day long, leave openings, and know you are not good enough to do anything about it. Take the leg swipe move - he goaded him into it and already knew it was coming, just like the double spin where he faked two straight attacks so his third would hit in an unknown to hector spot with maximum momentum.
Achilles was fighting angry, but also fighting to embarrass him. He left openings just to show how bad Hector is in comparison and then did a bunch of very cocky moves that worked, because even if he had a shred of doubt that Hector was as good as people said, he figured out basically in the first two exchanges that no, Hector isn't his equal. So lets end him in the most embarrassing way we can.
There is some thought that the most embarrassing way would have been to kill him much quicker of course. But there is something to be said for wanting to prolong the torture of your opponent as they let themselves think they can win and then slowly come to the realization that you're done.
@@NintyPrime Don't forget that Achilles was fighting to avenge his "friend"
Friend? You mean cousin
@@joshl90 cousin and lover.
@@jeffburnham6611 your gay is showing, sir.
I always considered the flamboyance and large openings displayed from Achilles was him proving that he was the superior warrior and in charge of the fight from beginning to end, "I'm so good even with all these openings I'm still going to dominate".
If Hector had truly gone for an opening Achilles would still shut it down and rapidly counter attack.
He's not even sweating at the end whilst you can see the sweat clearly all over Hectors face.
I agree. My thought was that was actually part of Achilles plan. Appear to leave yourself open, opponent takes the bait and you immediately shut them down.
Or because it is Achilles who is invulnerable everywhere except his heel.
@@leviosdraekion6993 maybe, but I think Troy takes on the form of the myth that he was so skilled he couldn't be harmed.
Also in the second half of the fight, it's made obvious, that Hector is exhausted.
Floyd Mayweather does it too. He leans his head in without any defence to attract the punch, then lunges back so the punch misses, and then hits with his own counter as the opponent is now vulnerable. It's called the 'pull counter'. But it's 100% a tactic all fighters would use. You leave openings on purpose to attract the attack on your terms knowing how you will counter.
watching this again frame by frame, I am insanley impressed by how great the choreography is and how well the two actors pulled it off. speed, danger, narrative . wow
Watching this again you should be able to tell that it’s a four man performance…mostly stunt doubles doing the real work.
@@spitkwad2746 no
@@GondorRamsay 0:12:51 yeah... that's not Brad Pitt
In the movie’s defense, this fight scene is the only one in the movie where the characters do not fight with helmets and it was done intentionally within the narrative
So Hector can know who he’s fighting this time…
the guy in the video said that the could've put them back on after that, but still, achilles is very confident in his skills and strength, and knows he won't need it, and thus throws it away. Hector on the other hand throws his in honor's sake.
@@san4os94 I fight in the SCA and I can confirm, if one guy does something purposefully detrimental out of confidence, sometimes his opponent will match the handicap to make things "fair"
And they were demigods, so we have to consider that.
@@artimuos903 not in the movie they weren't, and I don't think Hector was in the Iliad
The helmet thing was also arogance vs honor (it was not just about "you can see my face so you know who I am") - Achilles wanted to show he does not need it in 1v1 fight with the best of enemy army, Hector put it away so he did not have "unfair" advantage. I really liked it because the whole thing really showed that Hector was a better man than Achilles, but not a better fighter.
we can also consider the fact that achilles' skin has been made impenetrable by the styx, something hector doesn't really know. so for hector it's an unfair advantage to keep his helm, but for achilles it's more "i can fight naked against him for all i care. he won't even scratch me anyway"
@@Wargulf2838 The movie version of Achilles isn’t supposed to be invulnerable. They address it early on when a child says to Achilles that he heard he can’t be killed. Achilles responds “then why would I bother with the armor”. In the end Achilles is hit with multiple arrows in the chest which he pulls out and the Greeks find him with just one arrow that hit him in the heel still present.
What makes Achilles a great fighter wasn't how technical he was, it's his raw skill & talent. Hector was a great a fighter too, but it was since he's more technical & uses his head more so he can out maneuver & keep up with his enemy (like in his fight with Ajax).
That's also why Hector is the commander of his entire army & Achilles just commands a small team of elite men.
@@meowfaceification well its not so much that his skin is impenetrable, but rather as if he has some unnatural force defending him (which goes away when he's hit in the heel)
you can see this during the beach fight when he puts his shield on his back to manouver better, right in time to stop a arrow that would otherwise have hit his back, this wasnt planned as you know he wasnt aware of the arrow.
Not to mention the fact that this was literally the first fight scene in the movie where either man didn't ware their helmet. This isn't like most historical action/war films like "The Dual" and so forth, them taking their helmets off in this fight was done deliberately and when they actually were fighting in battles prior to this specific showdown, both of them wore their helmets.
In my opinion, a possible reason for the tendendy to "exchange momentum" and pull back the non-offending arm could be if the choreographer was a barehanded fighter mainly. When I learned Karate, a lot of force for a punch comes from the twisting of the hips kind of like the spinning drum toy.
So this kind of feels like a barehanded fighter that picked up weapons.
Interesting theory. And I buy it. Personally, both when I first saw it and now more critically analyzing it now, I thought it was more these two were following through for a killing shot. Both in the film and myth these two were presented as the best warriors of their day. How many times had those thrusts ended a previous fights before? So in their minds, they're following through so far because they think the fight is about to be done. But, going back to the momentum being switched, they're now having to recover and reset because not only is the fight not done, but an equally likely killing blow is coming right back. So those moments are because they're over committing and off-balance.
Twisting Hips creates Leverage. With a bladed weapon like a sword It really increases friction on the blade.
As far as I know, they actually did refer to some boxing matches to film some fight scenes, but it’s just something I heard from somewhere so I might be wrong here
I was thinking the same thing. I take Shotokan and was thinking the same thing every time Shad brought it up
As a practitioner of Tai-Chi, having fluid motions and utilizing every bit of momentum are core tenets, in many of those shots where Achilles throws his shield around it seems like he's using it to accelerate himself and add force/speed to his thrusts.
Big difference with Tai-Chi would be that there is more rolling with momentum and far less sudden reversals of direction.
It's a fantastic scene, so much nuance throughout, Shad did a lovely job reviewing it!
"Armor is meant to do something" is such an understatement and it had me laughing.
and if you want to laugh even more, go to Metatron's channel and watch his "Armor doesn't work" rant.
I think the idea they were going for was that Achilles was like Ali, taunting his opponent with little defense and lots of mobility. I think this would have been sold more if they let Hector use his shield more effectively in order to show the contrast.
You mean Ali G? ;-)
Like in the scene against the wall when the whole gang is shooting at him?
Hector, the fool who thought he killed Achilles. I like this fight because it sells the idea really well that Achilles was just taking the piss the entire fight, that this was never a contest. The film establishes that Hector goes into it knowing he is going to lose, that he will die, he has dreams about this and so on. That to Achilles, this fight was happening in slow motion and he was trying to make Hector gas out and show that Hector never stood a chance again him, and to punish him for the Hubris of thinking he had defeated Achilles.
When you think about the character of Achilles as represented in this story, all of this makes sense.
Achilles is testing and playing with Hector. Making sure Hector is the worthy opponent that will sanctify his glory.
He wants this fight to go to the sword. Without shields. That is the only way Achilles will have his glory.
He could have killed Hector in an easier way. You can see it as presented.
Achilles wants everyone watching to see him thrust his Sword into Hector's heart where there can be no question who is the greatest.
Exactly, he wanted to systematically dismantle Hector weapon by weapon and show his superiority in each category, letting all know he could easily have killed him at any time.
This, yeah. Like, he probably *could've* landed that backhand slash instead of elbowing Hector in the face, but he wants to toy with Hector and prove his superiority, and he seems to *really* want to land one of those showy jumping downwards stabs. He tries for it twice before ending the fight with an equally showy quadruple-attack-spinning-stab with Hector's own spearhead.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they portrayed Achilles really well in this scene. From what I remember, he was a warrior without equal, basically invulnerable but also incredibly vain and arrogant. He refuses to fight for most of the war just to prove a point, until his best friend / boy lover gets killed and against Hector tries to show just how superior he is, for his own perverse sense of self-glorification.
@@NargaDestroyer His cousin... 😓
@@Necroscat Been a while since I watched the movie, but in the original story Patroclus defintiely was not Achilles' cousin. He was a childhood friend, close companion and potentially a lover (depending on the source on that last bit, but all agree Achilles loved him like he loved no other, and they were very close).
12:16 Achilles has always reminded me of a shark in this scene and the way you described it fits perfectly. It was just a test nibble to see if Hector was gonna be easier prey than he initially thought.
The main thing I noticed is that that is not Pitt in the frozen shot :D
in the special features they explain that achilies' fighting style was modeled after the stalking and hunting style of large cats such as a tiger or other jungle cats
The original version of this video, where the initial sketch was mute, was even funnier.
I thought it was a joke on "I'm going to shout very loudly at someone far away and assume they can actually understand what I say". The body language still conveyed the rest of the joke.
I feel like Shad is missing an important point when he identified Hector as the superior talent because he doesn't make as many technical mistakes. Hector is portrayed as an experienced, technically proficient warrior but earlier in the movie he described Achilles actions as "impossible". Achilles is so good he doesn't fight like anyone else. This is obviously choreographed for dramatic effect but there are and have been athletes who seem magic. I saw Connor beat a professional fighter with his hands behind his back and he often gives the impression of dancing with an unwilling partner when he fights. I heard a story about an American pro baseball player who would snap his bat with his hands whenever he struck out. Some people are just a cut above what should be possible.
Bo Jackson. The man was like a modern day equivalent of a demigod. He was quite simply a level above everyone else on any field of play he stepped on both Football and Baseball. He was capable of snapping a bat in half across in knee and I vaguely remember him putting a bat on his head and pulling it down snapping it in half. He appeared inhumanly fast and strong even amongst other professional athletes.
The javelin throw earlier in the movie expresses the point that achelies was a demi-god but, Hektor is a near equal even in the epic
Conor lost his magic a long time ago. Conor was never on a level like for example a Anderson Silva was in his prime concering fightmagic.
@@meowfaceification Bo was a absolute genetic freak, I remembering him gunning down a runner going for third from deep right field and then taunting the guy for trying
Yeah so it feels like he doesn't know Achilles is invoulnerable...
I do agree there was a lot of "technical" errors in the fight, especially on Achilles' part, but I always got the notion Achilles was purposely not killing Hector right away, like a cat with a mouse. Achilles was confident, almost cocky, and wanted to draw out the fight to wear out Hector while baiting him with the glim hope he stood a chance.
I also think it's kinda apparent that Achilles is messing with Hector throughout the fight.
Agreed. Achilles is not just here for revenge, but also know's his rep is on the line. Once he see's that he could defeat Hector, he draws it out to further show just how good he really is.
Thats how i see the fight Achilles knows he will win and he just wants hector to feel what his cousin felt in his last moments
^^^Literally this^^^^
Exactly, he was toying with him for much of the fight. It felt like they tried to show the change in tempo when Hector nearly lands a strike. That Achilles knows he is still the far superior fighter but Hector is skilled enough that he could land a lucky strike if Achilles gets too reckless. At which point he takes the fight more seriously and kills him pretty quickly.
Ties into the original story well since Hector tries to run and avoid fighting Achilles who kills him quickly and then drags his body around the entire city with his chariot multiple times to completely embarrass Hector and Troy.
Hector is supposed to be afraid and Achilles taunting him the entire time.
I think this fight scene does a great job of showing not just Achilles skill ( with the taunting and over the top moves as Hector struggles ), but also the most important part of the story. The opening line:
“Wrath! Sing, O’ muse of the wrath of Peleus’ son Achilles that brought countless ills upon the Achaean’s”.
Yeah you need to analyze this fight with that angle.Achilles was pissed and in constant charge.
Also remember, in context of the story, Achilles is attempting to embarrass and humiliate Hector, as well as punish him for the death of his cousin.
Nephew? I thought it was his cousin (in the movie, at least)
@@Darkblender5 yes cousin
@@Darkblender5 you’re right. Cousin.
I hear the Alabama already xD
"cousin" "nephew" lover, it's all a bit Greek to me
Concerning the issue of armor being pierced too easily (both here and elsewhere in the movie), it's worth remembering that in the text of the Iliad, there are a number of instances of people being killed in battle by thrusts or thrown spears piercing through their armor. Whether that was because the armor wasn't particularly effective, or was done as a narrative device to demonstrate the extraordinary strength of the heroes is a matter for debate, but it isn't inconsistent with the source material to have armor get stabbed through in this manner.
It greatly depends; there's a few instances of it emphasising strength, but there's also instances of "lesser" heroes piercing both shield and armor with a spear throw without it being described as anything extraordinary. If we look at the armour available in the day, bronze plate armor was as far as we can tell quite rare. (probably only being relegated to the richest, most successful warriors) and we know that at the (probable) time of the Illiad even bronze helmets were not universally used; so it was probably not unheard of for shields or armor to be pierced by javelins or bows because much of the armor worn was weak compared to what was used in much of written history. (and even then, many lesser warriors in the trojan war may have worn almost no armor (seeing as many were essentially just glorified Skirmishers, relying on mainly their shield for defense and preferring not to engage in heavy melee)
(also, I wouldn't be surprised if bronze plate was not impervious to the weapons of the time, as even steel plate armor wasn't)
As this is Archaic Hellenistic period, their armour was bronze, and it was actually easy to pierce, comparatively to iron chain/scale/plate/Linothorax. Linothroax was not yet common, if we were dealing with Linothroax then the complaints would be reasonable, recreations using flax cloth and rabbit glue have shown its inbetween Iron and steel armour in protection against cuts and arrows, which I find astounding.
Well most armor in that era was made of bronze not steel and steel is stronger than bronze
bevare trouth, if I remember corectly Hector was killed by trust into neck, from angle that didnt hit helmet, Achiles by poison arrow to heel,... both avoiding armor,...
Also Aias Brother, being Archer used his brothers big shield as cover betveen shots,...
@@thewolfpaladin1858 even then, the weapons were also of bronze, so they cancel themselves
The way I always interpreted this fight was that Hector was dead when he set foot out of the gate. The entire thing was Achilles systematically beating him down physically and mentally. He wanted him to suffer. He could have killed him in the first pass, but he waited until Hector was broken and flailing around in despair before ending it. So yes, he was playing with him the whole time. Remember... after it was over, he strung Hector's body to his chariot by his heels ( Achilles Tendons ironically ) and drug him around the city. Priam had to sneak out and beg for his son's body so they could give Hector a funeral.
Same, and it's obvious that not only Hector, but also both his father and brother all knew full well that he was not going to defeat Achilles.
No, he was dead the moment he killed Achilles' lover Patrocles. Nothing to do with mentality. It has to do with the fact there's a struggle between Gods hiding behind that symbolic fight. Patrocles was killed by the goddess hiding behind her "champion avatar", Hector. The fight itself is nothing. The Gods are important. Homere style.
@@messire9837 Hector kinda knew it. In the book he begs Achilles to let him have a decent funeral but Achilles describes to him how he'll leave him out for the dogs and the vultures to eat.
I'm sorry but this was not the case, yes Achilles proved to be the top warrior in the fight. But he actually went in underestimating Hector, that's why it seems like he is playing with him at times, but he uses all his moves that have worked in the passed and Hector is able to deflect. he says when priam comes to collect Hectors body, that he was the best fighter he has fought. and this is true within the context of the movie. Mythically Hector was a really good fighter and the Greeks were very scared of him.
I'd imagine that'd make sense, Achillies didn't want to be there in the first place and was ready to just sit out everything until he lover was killed. (Yes Patroclus and Achilies were lovers, not cousins.)
The small 'ding' that you thought was an impact on the armor at 39:54 actually hit the edge of his shield, which is why Hector's shield is back behind him in the following scene, Achilles knocked it aside to attempt to give himself an opening. You can actually see the shield get sent backwards by the force of the blow.
The "big dumb moment" of Hector, as you called it, when he didn't pick up his shield after his fall can be explained with the fact that he is VERY tired at that point. He can't find the strength to pick up the shield and hold it again. So in his desperation, he goes for the spear head and tries to end the fight quickly before his stamina completely runs out. Note that his attacks become much more reckless from that point on and he is panting. He knows he is older, less rested, less physically fit compared to Achilles. So he goes all in with two weapons and hope to stab/bleed him somehow to even the odds.
This is correct. Hector has strength, not stamina. In the book, I think they chase each other around for quite a while.
achilles’ stamina could also be put down to his bathing in the styx
I'm pretty sure the contrast of Hector relying on brute strength and having little stamina compared to Achilles isn't based on anything in the Iliad, just from details of how their fights were choreographed in this movie. In the Iliad Hector does eventually stop running from Achilles but that's because he was tricked into believing he stood a chance and not because he got too tired. And he dies immediately not because he was tired but because he was wearing Achilles' old armor and Achilles knew its weak point.
Both in the Iliad and in this movie Hector knows that Achilles is the superior one. When you are facing an opponent that is more skillfull, you will always, always rely on your defence, and the shield is the one who is providing the best defence. Not picking up the shield and go for the tip of the spear was stupid, espcially when Achilles still had his shield, yes Achilles throws away his shield seconds later but Hector couldn't possibly know that when he was crawling away from the shield to pick up the spear. Even if Hector used his shield poorly it still saved him a couple of times, from Achilles signatur move for exemple. You are tying to make it sound logical to attack Achilles with reckless attacks while this must be the must stupid things one can do, and in the end that's what got Hector killed.
@@exone8363 Of course you're right, it's not logical. I'm just saying it fits with the character and the movie's narrative. That's why I don't consider it a writing mistake. It's Hector's mistake and an understandable one. Because he is exhausted at the time.
I think the thing that you have to keep in mind is that Achilles goal isn’t just to kill Hector-he want to Humiliate him.
Another thing/reason for Achilles to do all kinds of "amateur looking" flamboyant moves is that he wants to completely destroy and humiliate Hector by defeating him while completely mocking him at the same time. He isn't trying to kill him but to humiliate and destroy him, and only then kill him. Or at least that is what I saw as narrative of this scene so while it doesn't explain everything, it does explain some of Achilles's behaviour (like not killing Hector multiple times despite having multiple opportunities).
yup i remember how he calls him a fool that thought he killed achilles.
The problem is..........he does these same moves during the entire movie.
Putting in the flamboyant moves doesn't work as showing off for Achilles, it just degrades them both. Humiliating Hector with flamboyance that would easily get him killed against an average soldier is humiliating himself too. Take the spear-behind-the-neck-crab-walk attack at ~28:50... So, so, open, so, so, dumb.
For the Bronze Age, bronze weapons would be typical but it is a bit incorrect to assume that the 2 most prominent, wealthy warriors of the age wouldn't have access to iron weapons. The Assyrians and Hittites were using iron weapons a few hundred years earlier around 1300 BC. A speartip doesn't use a lot of iron so it's feasible that they could be using iron-tipped spears.
My thoughts exactly. I thought Greece at this point had wide access to iron.
@@goosnavslakovic4908 not wide acces, it would still be rare and expensive, but these two would propably at least partially be equipped with iron gear
Actually several armors and weapons are described that were created from various metals (leaving aside material like leather, wood, boar teeth/tusks, stone, wool, etc.); for example gold, silver, electrum, iron, bronze, copper and even tin. And various alloys, such as copper, tin, silver and gold; everything in one alloy.
Anyway, they had iron too, it is described even in the Iliad; Ajax the Great, Achilles and others had some iron weapons. But certainly not to the same extent as other metals and it was rare and precious. Bronze was of course the most common, and SOME of the wealthier ones had weapons and especially armor made of gold and silver (which I don't know how effective it was since they are softer than bronze).
I don't know how much iron weapon finds are from this place and time, but various iron artifacts (not weapons) have been found in Troy... and even as early as the 3rd millennium BC. (a full thousand years before the Trojan War and the end of Troy).
BTW Archaeologists wonder why more archaeological evidence would not have been found after such a large war (such as the Trojan War)... well, because materials and especially any metals were valued and so used weapons and armor were overwhelmingly collected from the dead (that or the other side), the city itself was eventually completely plunder and demolished... a little later there was still life in that place, but it was more of a village with few people. During the time that the demolished former city was desolated, various leftovers' materials were taken from people passing through.
Achilles seems like he has a running list of 1 hit KO moves that he knows will fool pretty much every warrior he's ever met. He's checking them off 1 by 1 and Hector reads every one. Achilles moves aren't standard. They're awkward, but effective. They're quick combo moves using quick feints and unexpected follow ups. You can see Achilles almost get annoyed that not only is Hector keeping up but is finding enough openings to counter attack. I think this scene is perfect.
I really like that Achilles keeps his shield low for two reasons.
One he’s really cocky, later in the fight he’s shocked that Hector was able to scratch his armor.
Two, he’s to angry to think.
Part of the reason why I can forgive a lot of the technical faults is because Achilles is practically a superhuman toying with what is essentially a peak human with a high sense of honor, so there is almost bound to be awkward exchanges on both parts
In this interpretetion Achilles isn't superhuman.
@@arx3516 Not technically "superhuman", but they do show early on in the movie (with the spear throws) that he clearly outclasses everyone else.
Gotta say this is one of my favorite fight scenes In a movie and I love the entire film. One thing that always sticks out for me in films is music. And this particular fight has some of the best, it's so simple and all business. One drum beating to the sound of war.
When I watch this fight, I see a skilled duelist vs a seasoned soldier. The two can both be equally as devoted to their martial skills and one will reliably beat the other in one on one combat. A duelist's purpose is to defeat a single opponent while the soldier has several purposes, one of which is fighting. And often fighting as a team, against another group of soldiers. They are related, but very different skills.
I spent over a decade in the Army(USA), studied military history and participated in historical reenactments. Keep up the great work. I love watching this channel grow👍
Edit: Watch the fight from the perspective of Achilles being the Lion who does not parlay with sheep. The fight is telling the story of Achilles being the lion who toys with Hector until he is reduced from heroic figure to scared mouse. The idea was that he was not just killing the man, but killing his memory and demoralizing his enemies at the same time. That was why he was drug behind the chariot with his full anger on display. All the flashy moves, ignoring safety and relying on timing and he was trained to fight like it was an Olympic game. He was a talented athlete. His game was killing. Using the unorthodox techniques and angles is all a part of that.
he was driving him behind the chariot to defile his dead body, which was considered unthinkable and even disrepectfull against the gods
@@basilislab Why was he doing that? Because he was getting revenge for Hector killing his cousin. And to thoroughly demoralize Troy.
@@DamonKirry He got his revenge when he killed him. Desecrating Hector's body, an unthinkable act back then, can be attributed to his abyssmal rage but in the end it portrays his mockery against the gods (in this case apollo, the protector of troy) and the feeling that he was immortal. Sure it demoralized troyans but that was a sideeffect of the above, not his goal. PS:I am talking about the rapsody, not the movie.
I just love the detailing to this mostly non-CGI movie. Truly the early 2000s were the second golden age of cinematography.
Especially because today we got a lot of woke fanfics insulting fans...
It's also great that unlike 99% of Hollywood, this is a case where the actors did almost all of their own fighting rather than just stuntmen.
@@edi9892 oh yes, Hollywood has managed to ruin most of my childhood favorites.
Hey Shad we actually know about what shield of Achilles was made of as there is entire chapter in Illiad describing Hephaestus making his armor and shield.
Quote:
With this, Hephaestus returned to his forge, turned his bellows on the fire, and ordered them to begin. The set of twenty nozzles blew on the crucibles, sending out a varying blast of air at need, aiding his careful efforts as required, at every stage of the work. Into the crucibles went stubborn bronze, tin, precious gold and silver. He set up a great anvil on its block, and took a massive hammer in one hand and a pair of tongs in the other.
Then he first made a shield, broad and solid, adorning it skilfully everywhere, and setting round it a glittering triple rim, with a silver strap attached. Five layers it had, and he decorated it with subtle art.
On it he showed the earth, sea, sky, the tireless sun and the full moon, and all the constellations that crown the heavens, the Pleiades, Hyades, great Orion, and the Bear, that men also call the Wain, that circles round in its place, never bathing in Ocean’s stream, while gazing warily at Orion.
On it he showed two fine cities of mortal men. In one there were marriage feasts, and to the light of blazing torches, the brides were led from their rooms and through the city, to the sound of wedding songs. Young men circled in the dance, whirling round to flutes and lyres, while women stood in their doorways gazing. But the men had gathered in assembly, where two of them were arguing a case, contesting the blood price to be paid for another’s death. The defendant claimed he had paid all that was right, putting this to the people, but the accuser refused his acceptance, and the pair of them sought arbitration. Both were cheered by their supporters, whom the heralds firmly restrained. The Elders sat on the sacred bench, a semi-circle of polished stone, receiving the speaker’s staff from the loud-voiced heralds, and rising to give judgement in turn. At their feet lay two talents of gold, the fee for the one who gave the soundest judgement.
The other city was besieged by two armies clad in glittering armour. Their plan was to attempt to sack it, or accept instead a half of all its wealth. But the citizens resisted, and secretly were arming for an ambush, their beloved wives, the children, and the old left to defend the walls, while the rest set out, led by Ares and Athene, all made of gold. Tall and beautiful in their golden clothes and armour, as gods should look, they rose above the smaller warriors at their feet. Another scene showed them by a river, a watering place for the herds and a likely place to mount their ambush, and there they were seated in their bronze armour. Then in another two scouts were posted, waiting for sight of a herd of sheep or glossy cattle. Then there was shown the herds’ arrival, with two herdsmen behind playing flutes, ignorant of the cunning ambush. Then the ambushers were seen, rushing out to attack them as they neared, quickly cutting out the herd of cattle and the fine white flock of sheep, killing the herdsmen. Next, the besiegers were shown, sitting in assembly, or rising at the sound of cattle, or mounting behind their high-stepping steeds and racing towards the action. And finally he showed the ranks in battle at the river, attacking each other with bronze-tipped spears. Strife and Panic were at work, and ruthless Fate, here laying her hands on one man freshly wounded, there on another still unscathed, and next dragging a corpse through the chaos by its feet. The cloak about her shoulders was red with human blood. Just like living men they seemed to clash and fight, and drag away the bodies of those killed.
On the shield also, he depicted fallow-land, soft, rich, broad and thrice-ploughed, and on it ploughmen were driving their teams to and fro, and where they turned at the field’s end a man held a cup of honeyed wine in his hands to give to them, so they were eager to wheel about at the end of the rich furrow. Behind them the field, though made of gold, looked black as if it had been ploughed, a wonderful feature of the work.
On the shield also, he showed a royal estate, where labourers were reaping, with sharp sickles in their hands. Armfuls of corn were falling in swathes along the rows, while sheaves were being bound with twists of straw. Boys were gathering up the armfuls and carrying them to the three binders, while the king, staff in hand, stood joyfully and silently beside them. Heralds in the background beneath an oak were readying a feast, dressing a great sacrificial ox they had slaughtered, while women sprinkled the meat with white barley ready for the labourers to eat.
On the shield also, he portrayed in gold a fine vineyard laden with grapes, though the clusters of heavy fruit were black, and the vines were tied to silver poles. Round it was a ditch of blue enamel, and outside that a fence of tin and a single path led to it, that served for all the coming and going of harvest time. Girls and youths, were joyfully carrying off the ripe grapes in wicker baskets, while in their midst a boy sang of Linos, in a sweet treble voice, to the pleasant music of the clear-toned lyre. They all skipped along, with a chorus of cries, beating the earth in time, with dancing feet.
Then on the shield he showed a herd of straight-horned cattle, in gold and tin, lowing as they trotted from their byre to graze at a murmuring stream beside the swaying rushes. Four herdsmen, also in gold, walked beside them, and nine swift dogs ran behind. But in the next scene two savage lions in amongst the leaders were gripping a bull that bellowed loudly, dragging it off, pursued by youths and dogs. The lions had torn the bull’s flank open, and were devouring its innards, lapping the dark blood, while the herdsmen tried in vain to set the swift hounds on them, the dogs scared to grapple, but running in barking, then leaping aside.
On the shield, also, the lame master-smith added meadowland full of white sheep, in a fine valley, with sheepfolds, huts and pens.
Then he inlaid an intricate dancing floor like that which Daedalus once made in spacious Cnossos for long-haired Ariadne. Young men, and girls worth many cattle, were dancing there, their hands clasping one another’s wrists. The girls wore white linen with pretty garlands on their heads; the young men fine-woven tunics with a soft sheen, daggers of gold hanging from their silver belts. Here, they danced lightly with skilful steps, like the motion a potter gives his wheel when testing it out to see how it will run. There, they ran in lines to meet each other. And enjoying the lovely scene, a host of people stood round about, while a pair of acrobats whirled among them, keeping time to the dance.
Finally, round the rim of the solid shield, he laid out the mighty stream of Ocean.
When the large heavy shield was done, he made a breastplate for Achilles that shone brighter than flame; a massive helmet to fit his head, a fine one cleverly embossed with a crest of gold; and greaves of pliable tin.
And when the lame god had wrought the armour, he took it and set it down in front of Thetis. Then she swooped like a falcon, from snow-topped Olympus, bearing Hephaestus’ gleaming gift.
The Iliad is the source of all Western civilization and it is all there in just that passage.
So wait...there's 8 paragraphs describing the shield and then Homer goes, "oh yeah he also made a breastplate, helmet and greaves...but whatever, this is a long enough chapter" 🤷♀
??
Priorities Homer, where are your priorities? 😂
@@lauramartin7675 Duff beer
@@lauramartin7675 Maybe the shield was regarded as the most important and prestigious item? I do agree it is a pity we didn't get more!
@@crhu319 Mesopotamia would like to have a word with you
Achilles: Breathes
Shadiversity: You don't want to be doing that with all that dust flying around
That is definitely one of my favorite fight scenes off all time. There is just something about the way He moves through this whole movie that I just love. I don’t know how realistic it is but it sure looks incredible!
I'd like to point out that in regard to Achilles' elbow to Hector's face, Achilles had just pulled off the same combo of slashing or thrusting from the right and then twisting around to thrust from the left twice, and Hector had blocked it well enough the first time, a little bit more quickly and stably the second time. So now Achilles goes for the first half of that combo one more time, but instead of twisting around for the thrust, he completely changes up the timing of his strike and does a quick elbow to stun Hector and throw him completely off balance. He MIGHT have been able to hit with his sword, but the chances are good that Hector, being a very well-trained and skilled combatant himself, had now picked up the timing of that combo and would have knocked it aside easily and followed up with a well-planned counterstrike. It's an example of skilled combatants attempting to outmaneuver and outthink each other, and Achilles manages to plan just a couple more steps ahead than Hector.
We call this "the mix-up"
"This is Hector. The fool who thought he killed Achilles."
Man... That dialogue just gets burned into your brain...
"They are no pacts among lions and men"
@@jackbelmont4389 Really? It sounds like basic cocky trash talk. Calling it dialogue seems wrong.
@@joemcdermott1213 if im not mistaken thats a quote from the illiad. In the illiad hector legit ran away and aquiles ran after him until athena intervined cause hector knew aquiles was gonna wipe the floor with him.
I remember watching this movie as a kid with my friend. We rewinded and watched this fight like 5 times. It was so damn cool to us. I can just imagine kid Shadi being with us at the time, grabbing his head and yelling, “Raise your damn shield!”
Every Achilles' bad moment can be understood as him playing with Hector.
Every Hector's mistake might be because of fear or tiredness.
Not the part where Hector could slash at Achilles' thy from behind. He had an opening and dodged 2 attacks while doing nothing with his hand.
@@manolgeorgiev9664 I'm pretty sure that in a couple of those openings, he could have slashed him, but then he would've lost his life in exchange or something along those lines.
There are aspects in which yes and others in which they clearly opted for visual impact rather than realism. This mainly applies to Hector where it would be foolish to say that this fear will be so extensive that it will make him forget the basic principles of combat that he has dominated for as long as he can remember and he is clearly not an Achilles. Fear is part of his life and his role on the battlefield and he is not afraid to admit it since he sees everything from a pragmatic point of view, repudiating all the nonsense of idolizing war or the legacy of centuries in time. In this particular fight, he knows that he is probably destined to lose, which will prevent him from fighting with all his might to make it so. This includes not carrying the bag shield, not making unnecessary moves wasting your energy or missing clear chances for a win.
Do you think that the battlefield a hoplite, a spartan, an athenian, a macedonian, a roman or any warrior of any nationality was not afraid? Fear is among the bases of war in the human factor and you learn to live through it in your life in general without losing all reason or knowledge that allows you to overcome or climb beyond what that fear produces in you. No veteran gladiator or legionnaire would let fear prevent him from fighting with dignity and in mythology he is much more, he is Hector of Troy, almost a demigod and superior to some of them. It is not necessary to justify each aspect of a film in such a generalized way, it is a production with pros and cons after all. In addition, it is not the only combat scene and with all of them, it is obvious that he does not advocate realism as a rule at any time. What does not take away or is saying that it is not one of my favorite movies that manage to convey the essence of the Trojan War.
But you have to know how to admit certain things, a large part of the comments seem to want to cover up a reliable explanation of an hour with multiple nonsense in relation to realism with ''Fear and arrogance''.
@@normalnormal2369 It's not a great 1 hour analysis as much as its nitpicking. I've seen a similar video to this one, where the same things are pointed out in a much shorter video. I admit and know that the way they fight isn't realistic. But what Shad is saying isn't true, about making a dynamic and impactful showcase of shields and realistic way of fighting. If you know art, you know that a bigger swing and hit is always much more interesting than a fighter covered with shield poking another fully covered guy with a spear, searching for holes...
@@powerofberzerker9487 1. you're right that shad waffles way too much and his videos are long, but that's besides the point. His info is still great. I don't think this is "nitpicking".
2. they can have big swings, but still make a realistic fight. It all comes down to good cinematography. There's no reason you can't have good cinematography and realism at the same time.
3. the point of this video is talking about how realistic the fight is, whether you personally care about the realism or not. Why did you waste an hour watching this if you don't wanna hear about that?
Good analysis, Shad! One quibble though: you keep questioning when the characters dodge an attack rather than use their shields. But as is made evident throughout the movie, Achilles depends on his agility to avoid attacks when he can. And having fought with a sword and shield before, I can attest that, when lightly armored as these two are, dodging takes a lot less energy than moving a shield up to block. The shield arm gets tired quickly, and the less you can wear yourself out in combat, the longer you can fight. These characters have trained, and have long experience, fighting in wars. So they have both learned the importance of conservation of energy.
Also, everytime you bring one of those shields up to block a high shot, you block part of your field of view. And both of these characters know the other is a deadly adversary. So I imagine they'd avoid creating predictable blindspots the other could capitalize on.
At least, that's my take on it. I could be wrong. There are a lot of factors that go into the analysis, such as how heavy are the shields (but if they're metal as they appear to be, they'll be pretty heavy - particularly after holding them up for even a few minutes).
Not to mention Achilles is LITERALLY INVULNERABLE except for the heel.
Well there also the fact that they are fighting. You ever seen Pro fighters do mma they cross there feet all the time even though thats a mistake to most coaches. They leave there hands down, They dont bring back there punches to protect themselves. When people fight they arent extremely technical.
@@Vincentius_Cardinal
I think in the movie he isn't. It's a human story.
@@Vincentius_Cardinal I believe if Achilles did actually live he could of been so good at fighting that no one was ever able to actually hit him with their weapon of course the ancient Greeks would of been like it's because the gods made him that way. Of course he does get hit in the ankle by an arrow which I believe in the Illiad he gets taken back to camp and dies there more than likely to an infection.
@@lasko24 I'm talking about the myth, and by the way, not the gods, it was his mother and the river Styx.
The awesome Hero Pose that Achilles does after that thrust was lifted straight from some artwork on a piece of Greek pottery depicting Achilles. They said it on one of the interviews.
@Shadiversity If you notice, Hector is much more defensive and keeps his shield up most of the first half of the fight like you keep asking for. Achilles has a FAR different flow, he relies much more on strength, speed, and his reflexes to defend him than an upright shield. He can read his opponent extremely well and only brings up his shield when he anticipates he needs to.
Also different motivation for this fight.Achilles in constant charge shield less useful.
Shad I would just say, everytime achilles is leaving his shield down I'm pretty sure it's meant to be on purpose, he's mocking/baiting hector. If you've been in a real life fight and you want to intimidate someone you think you're way better than then you mock and bait them. See connor mcgreggor all the time doing similar right before match and blows start, see many boxers etc. True it may be different with spears, but that's what the movie is going for.
Yep it's the concept of "opening the door". You leave a door open and let your opponent attack because you know precisely how you're going to counter it.
Shad isn't very good with nuance lol
I do agree that Achilles is baiting Hector. The overhead shield sells that most to me. Hes also rage fuelled so possibly lacking most caution. It does seem to me however that both belligerents repeatedly "neglect" their shields in the same way. So it seems to me that throwing the shield out of position repeatedly during strikes shouldnt be considered part of Achilles obvious superiority and a baiting tactic cause Hector is fighting in the same style or manner.
@@samsizer2919 he's a dorky fool who only understands book techniques. In a real fight, you do what you feel.
Achilles LITERALLY spends a good chunk of the fight handling Hector with one arm behind his back, that's absolutely what he's doing and it's great, lol.
Three things about Achiles reckless fighting style: He is basically the Superman of his time, he's been fighting since he was a boy and he has won every single time since he was a boy, in his mind he has no need for the more defensible tactics because he's (over) confident in his reflexes and coordination to win regardless. He wants to humiliate Hector and also he was probably a bit suicidal at this point, again he has won every battle he was in so far, not only that he hasn't suffered any loss in his life so far, to lose Patroclus because of a bad decision on his part was probably devastating.
... i am 13:01 into the video... I might have skipped that part where Shadi might have mentioned it, but is Achilles not supposed to be invulnerable?
I mean he does not even need the shield in the first place!
Friend Patroclus didn't need the help of Achilleus to fight the Trojans and their allies.if you read the Iliad you shall see that beats back the Trojans from the ships ,then destroys their allies in the open plain,then when Hector reorganized his army ,confronts Patroclus,in the ensuing fight ,his brother killed by Patroclus and Hector retreats.then the Trojan army disintegrated and Patroclus climbed the walls of Troy.but he was thrown back ,suffering concusionsand loosing his shield and spear.then he was hit in the shoulder with a spear from a Trojan.and then Hector claimed that he killed Patroclus.and also it's Ector not Hector. In the old times the E was pronounced very heavily accent
@@Chareidos Don't think he was invincible, even Gods get stabbed during those battles. afaik the heel thing is a much later addition to Achiles myth. His mom also told him that if he went to fight at Troy he would die.
@@legostuds680 Thanks for clarifying. You mean by later epics other sources than the Iliad or rather a later iteration of that? Just curious, since I definitely never read the Iliad, or only somewhat of it in school if I recall correctly. ^^
That was just merely the one "fact", that stood out about him in my memory.
This is a really good point. He's very focused on talking about HOW they "should" be fighting to have authentic form instead of incorporating the psychological aspect of how PEOPLE "actually" fight, flaws and all.
I feel like you forget, raising a shield will tire you out faster than leaning past or side of a weapon. One thing I tell my friends who train is this...
It's not enough to know how to fight
You need to be able to get to the fight, survive, and get out.
Most of this scene I feel the fighters are probing each other and maybe disable or ware the other down enough to secure a solid strike.
As someone who plays the Dark Souls games a lot, these are words to live by. Drop your shield and DODGE! Shields are for when you can't dodge, or if blocking would give you an opening to counter attack.
I was thinking the exact same thing!
The fact that the shields are already established to have a bronze exterior, and bronze being quite dense, I pictured myself gassing out holding a shield like that at torso height in under a minute.
@@dithaingampanmei true, it comes down to this really, if you take two fighters of equal skill it becomes more of a match of who has a higher level of fitness and who more technical
My thing is this:
A logical explanation for all the technical moments where they weave or dodge instead of raising their shields could be explained by a heavy, heavy metal shield. They can't raise them that quickly. But that would quickly make all the flourishes and swings of them quite silly. So either they need to justify the weight of the shield or justify the strength of the combatants, but neither would excuse the technical failures found.
It's just really flourishy, which isn't bad, and alot of the issues found can be explained by trying to capture a more entertaining and cinematic angle rather than some crazy really attempt at a slash or dodge, but I agree. This is one of my favorite fight scenes in film, because of the dynamics of the fight, and the storytelling of it. It really fostered a love of movie esc, flashy swordfighting in me when I was young, and so while looking back, I still loved it even if it has many flaws. I believe the fight to be a better blend of cinematography and swordfighting than most films of its time period, rather than a truly realistic swordfighting focus.
One reason I like this scene is because Hector begins the fight as the more technically sound fighter, However, as the fight drags on, Achilles superior athletic ability exhausts Hector. Leading Hector into dumb mistakes and ultimatel death.
Hector begins the fight as the more technically sound fighter what fight did you see
@@carlogiurizzato2441 This is what the movie is trying to portray in my opinion ... Real life is another story
I've personally always been in awe at how Brad Pitt's hair stays just perfect the whole time.
Making a person miss an attack takes more wind out of them than letting them hit your shield. That's why they dodge sometimes instead of blocking. Happens in all fighting sports. Hopes this answers your question on "why do they dodge instead of using their shield sometimes"
Missing also unbalances the attacker. They're expecting to hit something and get stopped by resistance thus reaction. If they don't get it they stumble forward. It's a major opening.
I would also like to think them trying so hard to block with their shields would waste a lot of energy. The shield Hector is using looks heavy, not extremely but along with the armor he has could explain the point.
Achilles is super fast, the fact Hector had many options yet failed to act on them is due to Achilles quickly recovering from said mistake or surprising him with a new move. Plus, Achilles’s armor looks lighter for combat and mobility.
"Fighting sport"
In the real battle you wouldn't really dodge to much especially if you have shield you can block/deflect the opponent wrapons
@@rezie9247 I don't think u understand what "fighting sport" actually means. It's completely real. Ppl have died. MMA isn't a game
@@MercenarySedSure MMA isn't a game and people have died from it but its a bit of scretch to compared it with the actual battlefield/duel to the death because it doesn't have limitation or rules like the fighting sport
Just watched this movie yesterday for the first time and this was the best choreographed fight scene I’ve ever watched!
This scene was epically intense in the film, because you knew what the outcome was going to be, even if you didn't read the Iliad before seeing the movie. It's fun to see how it stacks up against scrutiny. I like how they focused on spears as primary weapon, whereas most movies would default to swords.
"Just have complete composure and excellent technique against the demi-god both sides know is going to kill you." I think this type of form analysis makes sense for films that are intending to depict competent human fighters, but while this scene obviously has technical flaws, the storytelling accomplished without any dialogue makes it one of the best. We can beg Hektor to raise his shield all day, but in the context of the film and original story, his only near-impossible chance to survive is to do something unexpected and risky to kill Achilles first - meanwhile to Achilles this is merely a game.
exactly! i remember seeing Achilles strike to hectors shield at 39:10 and realizing that he's just a cat playing with his food at this point. hector his no chance of landing even a single blow, in Achilles mind, and so he's just toying with him. knocking the shield to the side, the elbow to the face, he doesnt want to kill hector yet, he wants to have his fun first.
Wait, is Achilles a demi-god in this movie? I thought that he was a normal human too, since they removed the gods from the Illiad.
@@GThe-su9kl nah, if you go to the scenes where his mother comes out, they clearly depict her as a goddess.
Yep. It is not a fight to determine, who's the best. It is a fight of a great fighter (Hector), who knows, that he is nevertheless vastly outmatched and doomed, unless he pulls off something incredibly lucky.
Even when you just spar with someone much better than you, it is frightening. For the fighter of Hector's caliber, he had to know - feel with every strike and move - that he has no chance. And this is what sells this scene as one of the best for me. I don't see Hector coming out to contest Achilles supremacy. I see it as a desperate last ditch attempt to try and cheat fate. With the whole weight of responsibility for the family and the city on Hector's shoulders. And nothing except personal glory on Achilles's.
I actually didnt think of the fact that they didnt say a word during the fight itself
Actually achilles in the iliad is mentioned many times as swift footed, so it was cool for them to give him a more agile fighting style. If only they followed the story closer......
It was still fun though. The actual story of achilles' end would have been less dramatic than the movie. And made Paris look like even more of a coward.
@@adib3011 the only proper portrayal of Paris, the breaker of guest friendship and abductor of Helen of Sparta. :P
@@adib3011 unlike the coward and horndog he is within the myth?
This whole fight scene is a story of Achilles. Its a massive taunt to Hector from Achilles and he sets the tone at the beginning. He finds it unbelievable that Hector has the audacity to even think he could beat Achilles. So Achilles tests the waters of Hector in the beginning, checking his form and timing, then goes to work showing Hector just how outmatched he really is and how much better Achilles is than him. His God like moves, his lack of using a shield, leaving himself open, the jumps, spins, lounges, and mix of weapons. Achilles was telling Hector "how fucking dare you think you could ever match up to me, let alone kill me, and in your arrogance you killed my cousin."
you know, it's not super related to the fight itself but you just made me think about something, why do adaptations that omit homosexuality from the source material tend to turn gay couples into cousins specifically? first there's Sailor Moon and then this, it's really funny looking back XD
You are onto something. It's weird.
@@nonsonomoltobravoconinomi1531 Because the whole "greeks were homosexual" is mostly BS made up by historians who didn't understood they had a different concept of love than us. The souce material never intended at any point they had sexual relations, but instead that they had a really strong friendship (like Damon and Pythias).
That's also why they made them cousins, the common viewer would have understood Achilles's rage better if he lost a close family member than "just a friend".
@@Cesare-Borgia it is defnietly not bullshit, homosexuality wasn't just accepted but encouraged as a rite of passage, they didn't think of sexuality the way we do now but their understanding of these things and how they treated them in society doesn't change the fact of men having sexual relations with other men, most men of the time were hetero sexual as they always will be since homosexuality is not a trait you can pass but gay couples existed and it was reflected in their stories.
while his sexuality is never outright stated that doesn't exclude the possibility of him being gay, as there are events that would at least imply some kind of homosexual tendencies, and it's kinda hard to define these things in general because with time we lost a lot of ancient context to really define why Patroclus always followed Achilles as some kind of might be serve/lover which to an ancient Greek reading the original texts at the time they were made was probably obvious like how the black lady from Tom snd Jerry is never stated to be a mammy in the cartoon but with the context of the time it could be seen as obviously implied since most black ladies shown in media at the time didn't live in such nice american dream houses, you need to look at the evidence of past traditions and culture to really form a solid thesis, and the evidence for the iliad has not closed the debate on Achilles' sexual orientation so clearly there's at least some validity to the interpretation of him being gay.
the iliad goes at great lenghts to describe him and Patroclus as extremely close which to an ancient Greek used to see portrayals of homosexuality as normal might be all the evidence they need to deduce they're toghether, plus it's not like straight relationships are always outright stated either, in fact today we tend to default to believing that a man and woman couple has to be romantic and see platonic relationships as the exception.
And apparently while researching on this there are versions of the story where he falls in love with the Trojan prince he kills, so there's still precedent of Achilles being explicitly homosexual along side stories that pair him with women so I think it's safe to assume he was likely at least bi sexual, and even then there are still other mythological characters who displayed queer tendencies.
plus you say making Patroclus a cousin makes his anger more understandable but have you thought that maybe them being lovers makes Achilles rage make even more sense? revenging a fallen loved one is a trope as old as time itself it only makes sense that Achilles would be as enraged about the murder of his loved one as Kriemhild was at the death of Siegfried, sexuality doesn't change the feeling of extreme guilt and passion such an event would unleash and it's a total valid read of the iliad given Achille's established relationship with Patroclus and Achille's other example of explicit homo sexuality, yet you reject the premise of not just Achilles being homosexual but also it being an accepted orientation in ancient Greece entirely based on, you not liking it I guess?
I mean, would it really be so bad if he was gay? putting historical accuracy aside which I don't think you're all that concerned about, Achilles being gay doesn't change anything about his character, and in fact it makes his rage against Hector much more dramatic from a narrative perspective than if he was "totally just a straight platonic friend", you say historians make shit up but what receits do you have to completely disprove them? having a bias doesn't make you right, it means you're not open to awnsers you don't like.
@@nonsonomoltobravoconinomi1531 If you're interested in the subject there's 2 videos I reccomend you to watch.
- The Lie Told to Us About Our History | Ancient Greece (from Leather Apron Club)
-The TRUTH About LGBTQ+ in Ancient Greece - Once and for all (from Metatron)
I love this as a narrative fight, as every single move tells a story, a narrative, that Achilles is this incredible Warrior who doesn't need to be perfect and doesn't want to be. He wants to humiliate Hector, and Hector is just fighting for his life.
Also it shows Achilles as always being on the offense, while Hector is the more deliberate fighter. He is looking for an opening, but Achilles only leaves opening while he is attacking. And Hector is show to be unwilling to risk what he needs to to win the fight. Almost every mistake Achilles makes is to regain the momentum of the fight, and Hector never capitalizes on them because he instantly going back on the defensive.
The thing I like about this fight is it makes a one sided beat down with Achilles trolling and flexing on Hector the whole fight compelling. Achilles shows up alone where 100 archers could have killed him, takes off his helmet, and treats Hector like a joke the whole fight.
They make Hector tragic as well with the reaction shots from the family and Paris especially since this is his fault. They make you think that just maybe Hector can survive, but he was dead as soon as he accepted the challenge. Hey though, he went out like an OG against the greatest warrior in the world.
While Achilles craps on Hector, the 180 of him saying that he was the greatest opponent he ever faced does add more on this as well. They show how bored Achilles is that no man can touch him, and Hector actually lasts a minute against him.
Excellent observations. This scene serves the whole movie so well, and is a great scene isolation.
This is what I always understood about the fight scene. While there are some technical errors, it largely felt like when a prized pupil challenges the master. However, it's not just the fight, it's the entire movie leading up to and away from this fight that makes it so special.
yeah I love this fight for the story telling, i think from the start hector knows he is going to lose. without a doubt. hence taking off his helmet as well. and Achilles i toying with him the entire fight because he knows he has an audience.
@@Fleato it's not enough to just beat Hector, it's about making a statement to all of Troy
Metatron did a video about an African warrior fighting for the Trojans who was the equal of Achilles. When the two met and fought on the battlefield, everyone stopped to watch. It would have been so cool if this movie had included that fight with him played by Michael Jai White
At 42:32 I think the locked gaze and fixed position that Achilles holds is a type of bait. You can see by Hectares facial expression that he is starting to lose his composure. Realizing this Achellies presents his entire body, but especially his face, as a target. This is Achellies sussing out what Hectares killing blow would be. Like learning a souls like bosses move set. The baiting continues with the sword-trap shield-armbar move, purposely baiting a killing blow in exchange for one of his. Achellies is toying with Hectare the entire time.
I agree. I thought that as well.
yeah and the helmet bit at the start too i think hector knows he is going to lose regardless.
Hector knew he was gonna lose when Achilles showed up at the gate, as did Achilles.
The whole fight is Achilles toying with Hector, testing the skills of the man who killed Patrocles as well as making Hector use his full skill set in front of the entire Trojan army before killing him.
Achilles is solely fighting for spectacle in practically all his fights. He's confident in his superior abilities to a flaw, which is kind of the point: He's a narcisstic fucktard who happens to be good at killing people and is praised widely for it.
Also in this fight, he is primarilly fighting to humiliate Hector, rather than solely killing him quickly. All his moves and moments where he chooses not to go for the killing blow, should be seen in that light.
Part of something you're kind of missing is that Achilles is not so much the "best" and "well trained" warrior, he's the most feared warrior. His blessing allows him to be a bit more reckless and unorthodox than all other soldiers and warriors of his era. It's also established that his "fatality" is the moment his opponent raises their shield and blocks their line of sight to him, he gets around their shield and stabs them in the clavicle. So for screenwriting and film reasons, I think that's partially why the shield work on Hector's side is so poor. I'm not justifying it at all, I'm just saying the story and character for this particular film definitely got in the way of the historical accuracy. So they definitely displayed that with both Achilles breaking Hector's spear and when he shoved the sword straight through Hector's bronze scale (?) armor. However as movies do, they only do this when it's convenient for them. If Achilles is supposed to be that strong, he would have demolished Hector's arm the moment he went for the disarm. He would have blown his skull apart with the elbow bash. He would have snapped his sword with that shield catch. But no, he's only super human when the script says so.
But I believe after a certain point, around when Achilles starts making more and more questionable moves, Achilles has already sussed out Hector. Like that's the flow of the battle. The entire first part is Achilles kind of sticking to somewhat sensible actions while throwing in a little flare here and there. At first Hector response well to it but then he starts falling apart and getting more and more flustered. By the time Achilles is wearing his shield like a hat, he's now playing with Hector and seeing exactly how much he can get away with rather than taking the fight 100% seriously. At least that's what I'm getting out of this fight. The devolution of Hector, being the traditional warrior who's very straight-laced and by the book, as he's toyed around with by Achilles, who is the loose-trigger, wild card, ace in the hole of Agamemnon's Army.
My take is that there's a little avoiding that tell-tale shield blinding raise for Achilles' "fatality" even though he attempts it twice. Narrative-wise, it's like Achilles attempting to say, "I'll kill you Hector in a more embarrassing manner than anyone I've fought before." Does it make sense? No. But Hector neglects his shield so much it's almost plausible to say he's trying to talk back at Achilles like, "I know your secret. I'm not going to raise my shield and let you do your trick. I'm better than that." Then things go bad for him. Achilles definitely goes from slight off the wall techniques and questionable tactics to more "street-ball" playing around with Hector after he realizes he has the room to do so. He then goes full ape-s**t crazy after his armor is damaged as Achilles comes to the conclusion that he's played long enough and it's time to get his cousin's revenge. There's a great narrative in there that is reflected in the fight choreography, but that definitely taints the purity of the actual practicality of some of the martial artistry and techniques used. Like there's a few times where both decide the best fighting position for them is shield to the side, weapon to the side, extend chest or face forward. Prime fighting stance for getting your a** kicked. It's on par with the fists clenched, arms straight down by your side, and you protruding your face at someone while you scream at them.
His fighting style reflects his origins in mythology: people often forget is that Achilles was a demigod--and more importantly, due to his mother's blessing, could only be harmed via Achilles Heel--so he didn't need to utilize the shield as much as other warriors. His body was hardened after being dipped into the River Styx, his only weakness being part of his leg (where his mother held him, hence the term Achilles Heel). Its why he prefers to use the shield as a type of weapon instead of protection, mainly because he doesn't need it to protect his body.
Wow, there is a river named "Styx". I thought that was the name of a missile.
The mythology supports what your saying but I remember in the movie at the beginning when a boy was sent to find achilles and the boy comments on "they say you can't be harmed" etc and achillies replies "then i wouldn't be bothering with the shield then would I?" So the movie doesn't try and portray him as river dipped kevlar. Still a very cool movie. Love the swords an sandles genre.
@@death_parade missile after river
Actually, him being nearly unkillable was a later addition… originally he was just so good that they thought he was unbeatable.
The styx only made him the greatest warrior only to be killed by a strike to the heel. Some interpretations take this as toughness but another one i like is that he's good enough to never even get hit, making him *practically* invulnerable. Also why it's an arrow that kills him, he didn't expect it and so never thought of evading it.
This is my most favorite fight scene of all time. I don't care whatever Shad ends up finding wrong with it lol
I think the final stab gets sold because of how Achilles pushes on the back of the sword with his left hand, thereby 'balancing' it to make sure all the force goes directly to the tip thereby preventing any sideways force coming on the blade and bending it. You can, for example, do quite a lot of damage with something as bendable as a straw as long as all the force is applied parallel to the length of the 'weapon'.
bendy straw death squads when
But in that case it wouldn't penetrate. It'd simply push Hector to the ground. You can't penetrate armor like that.
@@TheStraightestWhitest I mean, Achilles did have a level of super strength also. But, in the real story he stabbed Hector in the throat.
@@sidroberts7960 I understand that he had super strength, but same as him breaking the spear, the problem is that even with super strength, if he stabs someone hard enough to penetrate armor, that someone would just go with the force of the blow and the tip of his blade would simply dent. Unless of course Hector was pinned against a wall, in which case I'd say yes it's possible.
@@TheStraightestWhitest You could say that he kind of had a bit holding him up because he was on his knees, but again, in the original story he was stabbed in the neck and they could have avoided the whole debate if they had just stuck to that.
I'm pretty sure Achilles' shield-behind-the-head stuff is just him taunting Hector, trying to bait him into a reckless move. He's left himself open, but given that he's the most skilled soldier in the world by a considerable margin, I'm inclined to believe that he has a plan for if Hector did try to come at him during that moment.
The choreography of this fight is very cool, regardless, and great performances from both actors.
As other's have said Achilles isn't just there to kill Hector. He's an angered demigod who wants everyone to know that Hector never stood a chance, not even slightest bit so his main goal is to just flex on him before killing him.
I'd say that the one scene in the entire movie that does justice to greek mythology is this fight because any man with even a slightest drop of the blood of Zeus is meant to be an asshole.
Achilles isn't a demi-God at all. He's the son of Pelee and some nymphe. I think you're mixing with Herakles here, young padawan. Also, never heard about a drop of the blood of Zeus. again, are you mixing with the Stygian waters where Achilles was drown by his witch mother as a toddler? (holding him by the ankle, hence his weakness?)
Are you sure you're talking about Achilles, here? I'm at a loss. Zeus has to do with Herakles, man... Good Lord.
58 likes Facepalm. Oh, the Humanity...
@@messire9837 Thetis (Achilles' mother) was a goddess, so yes, he was a demigod.
@@messire9837 also that whole thing with stygian waters iirc was added in much much later - all of the versions of the myth as written down by ancient greeks only mentions that achilles was killed by a poisoned arrow the the heel, with no mention that it was the only way to harm him.
@@messire9837 Achilles absolutely was a demigod. You're the one with the facepalm here
Ironic is the fact that in the illiad it was the opposite, when they fought Achilles went for the kill immedietly, the fight barely lasted a minute, he just stabbed Hector with his spear and done
from my little experience at Viking combat re-enactment, You can gain a lot of momentum by using your shield as a counterweight. Not a common technique but when it's useful it's Useful!
That's interesting, I posted a comment elsewhere talking about how in Tai-Chi conservation of momentum is important and could help explain some of the "wild" use of Achilles' shield. It can help keep you mobile while keeping your footing.
Shad: "No, Achilles would not be able to break Hector's spear using his shield like that."
*five minutes ago:* Shad: "These guys are superhuman, that's why they are able to maneuver these heavy shields so well."
38:45
This is a good shot to show why i think most shields mistakes in movies are actually considerations made for the camera. If he had his shield properly in place you wouldn’t be able to see much Achilles or what he’s doing
One thing missed. When Achilles trapped Hector's sword 50:45 look at the position of Achilles sword. He could have easily sliced open Hector's arm rather than go for the kill strike. Great video!!! So much terrific analysis.
Was looking for this comment, exactly. The shield move was nice but he could/should have sliced that arm open in the process.
When the Ghost of Tsushima movie comes out, directed by Chad Stahelski, I hope that the duel that happens at the very very end of the game is well-executed and gets up there among the best duels of all time. Maybe even Chad can do biopsy of that one! Only time will tell if they really nail it.
It's getting a movie????? Dayum
I didn’t even know it was getting a movie
@@peterholley5802 it's among all those IPs that Sony is pushing to be adapted. Personally I think a show would have been better to flesh out all the side characters, but I do trust Stahelski to at least make it look awesome
You know it's probably gonna look like Duel of Fates, right?
We're more likely for Stahelski to do a Highlander remake, starring Henry Cavil. He's said his intention is to have that movie do for cinematic sword fights what John Wick did for gunfights
Truly an amazing fight scene. You can tell just how much work the actors put into making it look authentic and genuine
The movie itself wasn't bad; would have been better if it didn't suffer from terrible bloat. This duel in particular was great, one of my favourite in cinema. I wouldn't argue with much of your analysis, but I think you're overlooking Achilles as a character contextually. He's practically invincible, a god of war made flesh, and his personality reflects that. He knows he isn't going to fight Hector, he's going to kill Hector. Hector knows it too; he says his good-byes before heading out and tries to bargain for an honourable burial before starting the fight. Everyone knew how this fight was going to end, it was just a matter of how long Hector was going to delay his death. I think it's completely reasonable to overlook a lot of Achilles' technical errors and flamboyance on those grounds. This was meant to be a setpiece of humiliation for Hector before Achilles got revenge for his cousin.
To be fair to Hector being awkward with the broken spear half: He is desperate, and probably never actually used a weapon left handed so he might be having a hard time with precise hand eye coordination.
That a good point. I always went with the reasoning that Hector is exhausted and just aimlessly throwing out attacks.
I very much doubt a son of Troy who was renowned for his skills didn't train in almost all variants of weaponry all the time.
There is no point being desperate whit having only half of spear,.. it still stick(pointy stick ath that,...), and at this point Bronze swords would be dulled to point they woudnt be much better anyway,... so not much change in overal situation,...
I am so happy Shad is able to do this whole thing, demonstrating and such. Love ya Shad
I think one minor flaw in your analyses for this fight is you're assuming there is a strength equality, where in the fight it is demonstrated that Achilles has super human strength. I think they would have to do a better job showing it, but it's likely that he's hitting the shield hard enough that that is physically hurts to block each attack, so dodging is preferable when given the option.
Achilles at the end of the fight: I’ll try spinning, that’s a good trick.
Question: Was he also on auto-pilot before that move? 😜😇
As much as I love fight autopsies, I feel like you never addressed the fact that Achillies can permit himself a more flamboyant, unsafe method of fighting. His only weakpoint (unknown to him I think?) is his heel, he's effectively immortal in a fight otherwise. So, he's not a man that would put a lot of attention is protecting himself, something he's never had to do ever in his life up until then.
Achilles himself points out that the myth is a lie at the beginning of the film when the kid asks him of he is invincible. He tells the kid he isn't, "or I wouldn't be bothering with the shield, would I?"
@@VegetaLF7 But then the end of the movie has him get pretty much in a hurt position when he receives an arrow in the heel, so take it as you want I guess. And he also talks to his mother about his whole situation, so I don't know how much we can trust what I would believe to be a throwaway line that doesn't come back afterwards. And him saying that he's not invincible could just be a reference to the fact that he knows for his heel, I don't know, at this point it's been a long time since I've seen the movie.
@@NightClawprower actually he took some arrows in the chest at the end, but pulled them out before dying. well he didn't remove the one in his heel, so thats where acording to this movie the legend of Achille's heel comes from
Exactly A.M.P.M., according to Myth/Legend he is immune everywhere except his Heel.
@@morrigankasa570 acording to legend, his mother held him by his heel, dipping him into i think the river styx as a baby, so he got invulnerable except at his heel
The moments where the tides shift back & forth, and aspects of chance like Hector tripping over the rock… are part of Homer’s original narrative in the Iliad.
What makes this such a great fight scene is how they choreograph the aspects of the narrative into a cohesive cinematic sequence (and even tie in parts from the narrative together, like Hector grabbing the broken spearhead once he loses his shield tripping over the rock)…
As far as the lapses in shield use, this could be explained by the Homeric narrative that this fight lasted for hours over the course of an entire day (probably cut as an unnecessary aspect of the fight, but choreographed by the stunt-coordinator as though it was still a communicated part of the story…).
The narrative follows that, they were so matched as combatants that even the gods didn’t know who would unbalance the scales until chance/fate intervened and Hector struck his greaves against a stone.
As many people have pointed out you have to keep in mind a few things
1.) Achilles is supposed to be SOOO much better that it's not even a contest so he's able to make technical flaws because of his skill
2.) He is grieving for the loss of his cousin (sidenote Patroculas was his lover but anyway) so he's not in his best state mentally
3.) He is Invulnerable aside from his Achilles tendon so he doesn't have to worry about dying
My interpretation of this movie was always that this representation of Achilles is NOT invulnerable, but is instead blessed by the gods with a sort of spidey sense that keeps him 100% out of trouble if he's concentrating on the threat even a little. The fact that he's shot in the heel is the only nod to the mythological weakness, and IIRC he's actually killed by several shots to center of mass.
@@allen-simpson gotta agree with GG, the arrows didn’t seem to really do much bleeding, so it’s hinted that they didn’t really kill him. Sure it might still hurt, but it’s not lethal.
I never understood why "Invulnerable" people would go through so much trouble while fighting. Just run up and punch the shit out the fucker. Or use a knife and stab 'em. If they can't hurt you why bother? Would be way more humiliating anyway, just getting punched to death.
The most underrated movie, the gem of historic movies! 👏👏👏👏👏
Ahh, good, another Fight Scene Autopsy to watch. I usually watch ones that I've seen before (hence why I didn't watch Obi-Wans, I haven't watched the series yet)
Why . . . why would you want to watch that show?
@@Zathren Simple: Haven't seen it and I want to judge it for myself
Troy was a surprisingly fun/decent movie.
Also, Kingdom of Heaven was a great movie with the Director's Cut.
Troy is definitely a guilty pleasure movie of mine, so long as it's the original version and not the inferior director's cut with the different music. Replacing the epic drums during this fight in the other version kills the entire feeling of it.
Kingdom of heaven was spectacular. As factually accurate as 300. But effing amazing, i can watch it endlessly
@@thedinochromecommand Director's Cut was far better with far more character development for, well, everyone :P
@@thedinochromecommand There is an argument to be made that 300 is exceptionally accurate as the story is being told by Dilios and it's very likely that this is how he would have told the story to his fellow spartans. After all Leonidas last words to him were "Remember us"
The problem Shad makes with most of these fight scene autopsies is that (in my opinion) he views them as 2 (or more) equals that take every chance to kill each other when that isn't the case with most of them. This scene in particular is Achilles wanting to humiliate Hector while Hector is doing his best to just survive. These two are not equal combatants. In terms of speed, power and skill, Achilles is a 10/10 while Hector is a 7/10 at best.
This shows with how Achilles was playing with hector until Hector nicks his armour. At which point Achilles stops messing around and proceeds to dominate Hector to where it's obvious that Achilles has been in complete control of the fight and Hector never even gets close enough for one of his swings to count as a meaningful attack afterwards.
Hard agree.
I agree. Though I'd change one small thing. Achilles is more like 15/10, and Hector is 9-10/10. Achilles wasn't really mortal, hence a number *above* 10. Just my take on it, nothing more.
@@eziop5539 I was very tired when writing my comment but totally. Both are peak athletes in their physical primes, but one of them also happens to be superhuman.
@@bradleyedson8596 No worries dude ! Get some more rest haha
I disagree on the rating there. Hector is most likely a 10/10, he held up against all Achaean attack prior to this, and being the firstborn of the king he would have had the benefit of the best training possible, best diet, best everything.
Issue is according to the lore Achilles was protected by a spell and his only weak spot was the heel. He could technically have gone into battle completely naked (save for the heel) and come out alive. That makes him 11/10, superhuman.
Shad is therefore correct in assuming their skill level is equal, because both are in the top tier of ability, and Achilles has the advantage of a magical buff. Anyway the issues being pointed out are intuitive and obvious, it's not a matter of near invisible mistakes at the highest tier - an experienced HEMA warrior would do much better.
Edit: he actually should have been killed by Ajax, but that guy was also a bloody unit that could lift a rock to crush the shield.
That “heck door” skit had me dying lol
I think you're missing the finer details of his shield use. Achilles uses his shield mutiple times to "line of sight" Hector before launching an attack. Also, baiting him with unorthodox shield configurations and using it in tandum with his weapons.
I think when Achilles is taunting Hector with the shield behind him, it's because this is the longest he's ever had to fight anyone. Remember that at the start of the movie we see him one shot an enemy champion with no effort at all. I get the impression Achilles was holding back from using his demi-god strength (it's mentioned early on he has divine heritage) for most of the fight, but in the moment he send Hector reeling backwards he's decided to stop playing around and started using his full power. You could argue that's kind of a win for Hector. He lost, but he's the only person in the movie who gave Achilles a run for his money, hence the respect Achilles shows in a later scene. So it's less about his technique, more about his mentality throughout the fight.
"This isn't even my final form!"
you mean the respect by desecrating his body?
So when I look at Hector's armor it looks like leather with bronze plates to add protection but that plate has small gaps between them. So I assume it has good protection against slashing attack, and you could justify it being pierced with a powerful thrust as the weapon hitting one of those gaps.
In regards to Hector tripping on a rock as being a huge blunder, I would like to remind you that the gods were actively meddling in the daily battles of the Trojan War. Throughout the movie, there are several scenes that allude to instances of “divine intervention” present in the Iliad that in the film feel more mundane than mythological.
For example, Achilles dies with an arrow piercing his namesake tendon. We know the arrow didn’t kill him but the scene is alluding to a possible genesis of his invulnerability myth.
In the Iliad, although Athena facilitates Achilles v. Hector, no gods interfered in the actual fight because even they considered one-on-one with Achilles to be not a contest, but a death sentence. Given that it was presented in a different way in the movie, I wouldn’t be surprised if the well-placed rock on the battlefield represents the “divine intervention” of Hector’s fate in a way that fits with the film’s narrative.
Whether or not the film was saying that a god made Hector trip, or if it was just a convenient plot device to progress the “myth vs. reality” themes already present by that point in the story, I believe it is already being acknowledged as so unlikely, and even unbelievable, that the only explanation must be divine intervention, once again alluding to the theme of myth genesis.
Anyway, that’s a long explanation for it wasn’t his fault, so give the guy a break lol
Having trained in martial arts weapons for the majority of my life, I've always been hyper-critical of fight scenes. That said, this epic battle felt legit. Achilles was uncanny in his technique and power, exactly what I expect from a party divine warrior. Hector is my dude though.....
This fight made me love sword fights
Good analysis as always, my friend!
Worth taking into consideration about the technical "flaws":
Achilles doesn't want to defeat Hector. He wants to annihilate him. He wants to dominate and humiliate to make sure Hector knows he's over before he is done. We see Achilles use his flamboyancy throughout the movie in different levels and he obviously relies more on agility and precision to defend rather than the "clumsy and ugly" method of just blocking with a shield. So yeah it might not be technically perfect. But the thing is: It might just be better. At least in some part to show rather than tell that Achilles is the greatest warrior who ever lived. And the movie really does that to perfection in my opinion.
And Hector: As I said about Achilles wanting him to be defeated before he is dead; Remember this is the guy who said his farewells before going down to face him. He already knew what was coming. In his earlier fight with Ajax we see him not as some technical super human. But as someone who gets the fighting done. Pretty brute force and improvised it seems in that fight at least. He is obviously desperate throughout the fight and I think that escalates quite linear in a really well written way. I've always seen it as though he knows from the beginning that he's a plaything for Achilles to kill. All he can do is try to improvise, adapt and overcome this unstoppable force coming at him. I think this shows in the detailes. In the beginning when Achilles is zig-zagging him for the first strike we see Hector with his spear and shield down. He doesn't know what to do or how to approach this. He's constantly playing catch up. Trying to figure out what Achilles will do so he can turn it around. The more he realises that won't work this time in contrary to earlier encounters, the more desperate and tired he gets and all finesse gets thrown out of the window. If he can't out fight Achilles. He resorts to desperate brute force to try and smack his way through to a kill chance.
It's the best fight scene in all of movie history in my opinion. Technical flaws included.
But fantastic video and really fun to hear your take on it
Here here
I also got the feeling that it was deliberate. Achilles was doing things wrong because he knew he could, and he was showing off. There are even real life parallels like Muhammad Ali, who was undoubtedly one of the greatest boxers ever. He did things "wrong" constantly! He was just that good that he could pull things off that you are taught not to do because normal people can't pull it off
@@MrRazmut Excellent example! That's exactly how I envision this fight; Ali dancing around with his arms down, taunting his opponent.
Exactly, I second your comment. Also, I will say, that in the Aquiles mithos, I would like to add, that Achilles is invincible, except for the heel... therefore, he can afford to fight carelessly.
Also ones a neigh invulnerable demi god and the other is a mortal.
Achilles' style in this scene actually makes a decent bit of sense with why he's leaving himself open; there's a few scenes in the movie which actually reference his status of being an actual demigod, including a scene where they show his mother who is a goddess. They bring up Achilles' being bathed in the river styx, which could mean that if Achilles would be wounded on one of his extremities that it might not even phase him, let alone affect him. If that is the case then flash moves that leave Achilles open would not be that much of a downside to Achilles, hell it might actually have been an advantage of his because if he can bait people into trying to exploit what they might believe to be a lethal openings then he can easily take advantage with a lethal counter attack in response. So in real life this would definitely be suicidal ammeter mistakes; but for a person who is supposed to be all but immortal in combat it would be a pretty huge advantage/something they wouldn't probably even notice that their doing since they can just constantly be aggressive without much care for defense.