As amsa's English improves, we are slowly gaining more and more insight into the Japanese meta, including amsa himself, being one of the greatest players of all time.
For those who don't know the theory in japanese : "Sashikaeshi" is whiff punish. "Ate-waza" is an approach (you try to directly hit the opponent by taking the initiative, usually an overshoot, or a run up grab for ex). Oki-waza is putting out a hitbox (mostly defensively i.e retreating or in place attack). In theory, oki>ate (intercepting), sashi>oki (punishing), and ate>sashi (cut the opponent escape path so he can't make you whiff). Whiffing an Ate waza or a sashi changes it to an Oki waza, therefore it can be punished by a Sashi. The beauty of retreating aerials (Oki) is that given enough space, sashi becomes impossible. The examples shown are interesting: mang0 reacted to an Oki with an Oki of his own to get a sashi later -> so in the end he still ended the exchange with a wiff punish, it doesn't really show its weakness. Also I do think sashi viability goes way up when you have center stage and corner the opponent which is easy when the opponent only throws oki (especially retreating ones) as shown with the example of mang0 dash dancing with a fake intent to Ate at 3:33 While I do comprehend the idea of aMSa, I do think the observation is due to the fact that most interaction are done to avoid Sashi in the first place (because it is the most damaging one) -> it is normal that you won't get sashi as often: the threat of it dictates neutral and allows to progressively reduce the options of the opponent (by cornering him) until he has no choice but to take the opponents Ate (because there isn't enough room to escape) or try to Ate in a limited space (less momentum to work with so overshoot is difficult) which will often : 1) whiff and results in an Oki since the opponent has center stage hence making Sashi strong, or 2) be intercepted by a retreating aerials (opponents oki) -> being cornered makes you lose the option to Sashi (and Ate to a certain degree) in the RPS. Why would the more laggy option (retreating oki being movement+move)) be better than Sashi (just moving) when you corner the opponent? If the opponent read that you only throw oki in the corner doesn't it open up an easy path for his escape? The very fact that you take in account sashi all the time makes the option that strong : taking full advantage of oki and ate requires to first establish that you will in fact whiff punish everytime you have the opportunity. Probing a bad sashi with a well placed oki is crucial in center stage in every fighting game, but in the corner where every move of the opponent can be counted as an oki, sashi is the strongest. The example used at 8:23 just illustrates that the theory was applied in a match up specific situation. Zain is cornered but very close to mang0 as marth (Ate is risky) so he could either retreat to sashi (hoping mang0 won't act according to the theory) or oki. Mang0 was cunning and did an option select read, he knew that in this situation, an overshoot nair could either serve as an Ate (cutting down zain escape) or a Sashi (here zain could either retreat or in place nair or fair -> zain like to use nair without fast fall so dashing under it avoids it and the nair punishes it). Zain nairs so it's an Oki while mang0's nair is a sashi. Also the nair at 11:44 is not a Sashikaeshi but an Ate-waza (also known as Sashikomi) that whiffed making it an Oki-waza enabling Zain to punish it (Sashi), all because mang0 was cornered -> the theory is applied to a tee, cornering the opponent made Sashi much more powerful. TLDR : The idea I get from this is that basing your neutral game on wiff punishing on first intention in center stage isn't optimal, which doesn't really contradict the main theory.
In melee doesn’t ate beat oki? Instead of trying to whiff punish with running away from the opponent, just run in to make the oki whiff and then ate afterwards.
@@-hduiawhdiuhawu approaching to avoid a hitbox or to shield an attack (provided you aren't minus on shield) or crouch-cancel it (at the right percent ofc) then punish makes it a Sashi in the theory (because you punish the ennemy who is in an attack's lag), not an Ate. This is what happened at 8:42, mang0 avoided the nair by dashing under it to whiff punish it (Sashi). The take-away is that faking Ate wins against Oki because it opens the door for Sashi. An actual Ate would lose. That's the theory behind dash-dances, dash forward = intent to ate, but dash back = retreat to whiff punish (Sashi).
@@DoggyP00 I just feel like he's not talked about as much as other top players that's all, nobody specific... I feel we need to put more respect on his name
To the maintainer of this channel, I’d recommend you change the thumbnail to two buff anime dudes on the phone with their faces edited to be Toph and aMSa.
Super interesting discussion. Retreating aerials are super strong options for sure. I'd be interested to hear what ppmd thinks regarding the topic of whiff punishing not being as strong anymore in today's current meta. I personally think whiff punishing still has its place, but more players nowadays are definitely more aware of it and cover it more often. The more prevalent usage of retreating aerials and overshoot attacks definitely makes whiff punishing more difficult than it used to be. With whiff punishing, I think a mistake that's often made when people try to do it is that the whiff punisher often doesn't properly assess the space between themselves and their opponent before going for the whiff punish. If the initial positioning between the person whiffing the attack and the whiff punisher is too far away, a true whiff punish can't actually be gotten on reaction. People who intentionally whiff attacks often use this as a bait by spacing their whiffed moves just outside of the range where a true whiff punish would be possible. In this case, either letting the situation go or punishing what comes after the whiffed move as a mixup is better than trying to true whiff punish something that can't actually be true whiff punished. The total time it takes to whiff punish does not only consist of the time it takes for the person whiff punishing to react. It also consists of the time it takes for the whiff punisher to cover the distance between themselves and their opponent whiffing a move, so that the whiff punisher is actually in position to hit their opponent with whatever move they want to whiff punish with. This is why the characters that typically implement whiff punishing as part of their gameplan are the ones that are fast on the ground (ex: marth, fox, falcon). That "distance covering time" will be lower for faster characters, enabling them to whiff punish more effectively. Another thing I think that's worth mentioning about whiff punishing is how fox's fullhop is so good that it can kind of work as a "vertical dash dance" for whiff punishing, albeit one that can't be used repeatedly since jumps are a limited resource. For example, by fullhopping, fox can simultaneously cover a marth directly attacking or overshooting with either fsmash, grab or dash attack. If marth does any of those 6 options when fox fullhops, fox can then reactively punish any of those attacks as they come down from their fullhop. While spamming fullhop as fox isn't going to win games on its own at a high level and every option has its weaknesses, it's a really strong option in certain situations.
4:10 If you dont over shoot or under shoot you'll get whiff punished, I think Amsa is saying buy under shooting often you can catch people over shooting. Lowering your whiff punishes
is amsa just speed running english? I swear like just less than a year ago he was still early on in learning english and now this man is full blown commentating in 2022! so much much respect for this man
If you decide to change the thumbnail again. I'd recommend to take out the "Here's why." its jarring and the title already tells you hes going to explain it.
![Kodak Black - Catch Fire [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/A4ch-olIuZo/mqdefault.jpg)
As amsa's English improves, we are slowly gaining more and more insight into the Japanese meta, including amsa himself, being one of the greatest players of all time.
and probably the goat of Yoshi for the rest of melee's career, gunna be very hard to do more for yoshi then amsa has already
For those who don't know the theory in japanese :
"Sashikaeshi" is whiff punish. "Ate-waza" is an approach (you try to directly hit the opponent by taking the initiative, usually an overshoot, or a run up grab for ex). Oki-waza is putting out a hitbox (mostly defensively i.e retreating or in place attack).
In theory, oki>ate (intercepting), sashi>oki (punishing), and ate>sashi (cut the opponent escape path so he can't make you whiff).
Whiffing an Ate waza or a sashi changes it to an Oki waza, therefore it can be punished by a Sashi. The beauty of retreating aerials (Oki) is that given enough space, sashi becomes impossible.
The examples shown are interesting: mang0 reacted to an Oki with an Oki of his own to get a sashi later -> so in the end he still ended the exchange with a wiff punish, it doesn't really show its weakness.
Also I do think sashi viability goes way up when you have center stage and corner the opponent which is easy when the opponent only throws oki (especially retreating ones) as shown with the example of mang0 dash dancing with a fake intent to Ate at 3:33
While I do comprehend the idea of aMSa, I do think the observation is due to the fact that most interaction are done to avoid Sashi in the first place (because it is the most damaging one) -> it is normal that you won't get sashi as often: the threat of it dictates neutral and allows to progressively reduce the options of the opponent (by cornering him) until he has no choice but to take the opponents Ate (because there isn't enough room to escape) or try to Ate in a limited space (less momentum to work with so overshoot is difficult) which will often :
1) whiff and results in an Oki since the opponent has center stage hence making Sashi strong, or
2) be intercepted by a retreating aerials (opponents oki)
-> being cornered makes you lose the option to Sashi (and Ate to a certain degree) in the RPS.
Why would the more laggy option (retreating oki being movement+move)) be better than Sashi (just moving) when you corner the opponent? If the opponent read that you only throw oki in the corner doesn't it open up an easy path for his escape? The very fact that you take in account sashi all the time makes the option that strong : taking full advantage of oki and ate requires to first establish that you will in fact whiff punish everytime you have the opportunity. Probing a bad sashi with a well placed oki is crucial in center stage in every fighting game, but in the corner where every move of the opponent can be counted as an oki, sashi is the strongest.
The example used at 8:23 just illustrates that the theory was applied in a match up specific situation. Zain is cornered but very close to mang0 as marth (Ate is risky) so he could either retreat to sashi (hoping mang0 won't act according to the theory) or oki. Mang0 was cunning and did an option select read, he knew that in this situation, an overshoot nair could either serve as an Ate (cutting down zain escape) or a Sashi (here zain could either retreat or in place nair or fair -> zain like to use nair without fast fall so dashing under it avoids it and the nair punishes it). Zain nairs so it's an Oki while mang0's nair is a sashi.
Also the nair at 11:44 is not a Sashikaeshi but an Ate-waza (also known as Sashikomi) that whiffed making it an Oki-waza enabling Zain to punish it (Sashi), all because mang0 was cornered -> the theory is applied to a tee, cornering the opponent made Sashi much more powerful.
TLDR : The idea I get from this is that basing your neutral game on wiff punishing on first intention in center stage isn't optimal, which doesn't really contradict the main theory.
In melee doesn’t ate beat oki? Instead of trying to whiff punish with running away from the opponent, just run in to make the oki whiff and then ate afterwards.
@@-hduiawhdiuhawu approaching to avoid a hitbox or to shield an attack (provided you aren't minus on shield) or crouch-cancel it (at the right percent ofc) then punish makes it a Sashi in the theory (because you punish the ennemy who is in an attack's lag), not an Ate. This is what happened at 8:42, mang0 avoided the nair by dashing under it to whiff punish it (Sashi).
The take-away is that faking Ate wins against Oki because it opens the door for Sashi. An actual Ate would lose. That's the theory behind dash-dances, dash forward = intent to ate, but dash back = retreat to whiff punish (Sashi).
@@segaisthebest8106 ahhhh that makes sense! Thank you.
@@-hduiawhdiuhawu Glad I could help
Wow! Brliiant writeup man, i like the idea that on whiff, sashi and ate become oki waza
aMSa is one of the most underrated top players out there, actual melee genius.
I stan amsa
Who exactly is underrating amsa?
@@DoggyP00 I just feel like he's not talked about as much as other top players that's all, nobody specific... I feel we need to put more respect on his name
no one could play Yoshi at that level without being an actual melee genius
this aged well
amsa's english is getting pretty good! really good insight
his english has improved a ton. So proud of our boy amsa
To the maintainer of this channel, I’d recommend you change the thumbnail to two buff anime dudes on the phone with their faces edited to be Toph and aMSa.
Super interesting discussion. Retreating aerials are super strong options for sure. I'd be interested to hear what ppmd thinks regarding the topic of whiff punishing not being as strong anymore in today's current meta. I personally think whiff punishing still has its place, but more players nowadays are definitely more aware of it and cover it more often. The more prevalent usage of retreating aerials and overshoot attacks definitely makes whiff punishing more difficult than it used to be.
With whiff punishing, I think a mistake that's often made when people try to do it is that the whiff punisher often doesn't properly assess the space between themselves and their opponent before going for the whiff punish. If the initial positioning between the person whiffing the attack and the whiff punisher is too far away, a true whiff punish can't actually be gotten on reaction. People who intentionally whiff attacks often use this as a bait by spacing their whiffed moves just outside of the range where a true whiff punish would be possible. In this case, either letting the situation go or punishing what comes after the whiffed move as a mixup is better than trying to true whiff punish something that can't actually be true whiff punished.
The total time it takes to whiff punish does not only consist of the time it takes for the person whiff punishing to react. It also consists of the time it takes for the whiff punisher to cover the distance between themselves and their opponent whiffing a move, so that the whiff punisher is actually in position to hit their opponent with whatever move they want to whiff punish with. This is why the characters that typically implement whiff punishing as part of their gameplan are the ones that are fast on the ground (ex: marth, fox, falcon). That "distance covering time" will be lower for faster characters, enabling them to whiff punish more effectively.
Another thing I think that's worth mentioning about whiff punishing is how fox's fullhop is so good that it can kind of work as a "vertical dash dance" for whiff punishing, albeit one that can't be used repeatedly since jumps are a limited resource. For example, by fullhopping, fox can simultaneously cover a marth directly attacking or overshooting with either fsmash, grab or dash attack. If marth does any of those 6 options when fox fullhops, fox can then reactively punish any of those attacks as they come down from their fullhop. While spamming fullhop as fox isn't going to win games on its own at a high level and every option has its weaknesses, it's a really strong option in certain situations.
As someone who quit 100s of hours of overwatch and now plays melee, ty for the analogy at 11:54 it has opened my eyes
amsa's english improved so much!
4:10 If you dont over shoot or under shoot you'll get whiff punished, I think Amsa is saying buy under shooting often you can catch people over shooting. Lowering your whiff punishes
I hope amsa wins summit 12
same. Sonic frontiers at the game awards hype!
That would be the hypest moment in all of history
You must be so pumped with how the year turned out lol
is amsa just speed running english? I swear like just less than a year ago he was still early on in learning english and now this man is full blown commentating in 2022! so much much respect for this man
15:50 holy crap I have that drinking glass. Cheers!
amsa's english! wooooow, it surprised me how much it has improved
Toph, make a video on Hax's 1.03? I'm really curious on your take on it.
It's super cool to see aMSa in interviews
amsa ❤️
When Amsa says “more deeper”
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Bruh
Toph + Amsa analysis is goated
Wow Amsa really refined his english or was he always decent and I didn't know? lol
I think covid he leveled it up his English. But it might just be he's a lot less shy over mic than irl
aMSa's English is getting SO good
Greatly video
amsa champion
I wish I was in melee :(
Pog
i love you
If you decide to change the thumbnail again. I'd recommend to take out the "Here's why." its jarring and the title already tells you hes going to explain it.
How'd you go about learning Japanese?
There’s apps out there. I learned a lot with Human Japanese