Framing Juggleguy's decision as merely "catering to viewers" honestly seems like doing him a disservice. KJ64 isn't even that crazy of a stage for doubles.
Unfortunately, I don't think this perspective takes into account the fact of high-level competition. The reason stages like KJ64 were banned is because they enable noninteractive play as the best strategy for victory. For instance, any character with poor vertical speed is going to greatly struggle against circle camping on the stage. With money on the line, at the highest levels of play, KJ64 competition devolves into uninteresting and anticompetitive play.
@@JKJCreationsLLC No ones going to circle camp in doubles lmao. And even if you and your doubles partner are both playing characters with poor vertical mobility (which is already super unlikely to begin with), you can just ban the stage.
Being honest most melee players don't give a shit about doubles. I feel like a lot of people who don't usually care about the format only started caring once Juggleguy changed the ruleset says to me that people don't actually care about dubs and are getting involved in twitter drama just cause. There's no way all these people who normally don't care about dubs are getting up in arms cause of a change to a format (that Juggleguy is right needs spicing up if people are gonna care again), then it seems like empty anger.
Honestly I've watched a lot of melee and followed it over the years but my favourite things I've watched are mostly non-bracket stuff, like Super smash con Combo Contest, Summit, this event (OS), Lud's events, charity stuff. Melee hype is down, I think the viewership is not what it once was, if Melee wants to survive I think they need to focus more on content rather than just streaming brackets and doubles. Not every event should be fun focused, but a certain amount of events per year should be focused on fun and entertaining viewers with random side events and things to meme out about, rather than purely competition.
A few weeks ago EE came to Seattle to commentate a ultimate tournament hosted by Nintendo themselves, brinstar and kongo jungle were legal(state was randomized) and items were too. Besides the anti nintendo spam and grindy sweats everyone loved it and as a melee player who just tuned in, i really liked it more than any random ultimate set or melee set. Since it wasnt for much reward - the players seemed to enjoy it too (there werent too rly top players there but still) and i feel probably it helped some viewers and competetors want to enter and watch more smash tournaments going forward Anyways love hearing your news recap for this Toph
My airliner: >Your flight was moved 3 hours >Deal with it >What are you gonna do? Book another plane that's flying to your exact destination at the exact hour you need it to? Not possible TBH12: >We're adding a fun stage because it will be fun >mass outrage because of early bird registration >deal with it >what are you gonna do? Book another supermajor that's running the same weekend? Participants need to realize they actually have 0 power here and they never did- complaining about this is like yelling into the void
What if, we drop all level bans, and before a best of 5, the players or teams strike out stages until only 5 are left, then those are played randomly. Let the players decide their craziness.
@@NinjaLobsterStudios I can imagine one person who uses his first bans to remove all neutrals, so I think maybe there should be some rule to keep 2 neutrals at least.
@@speadskater maybe flip the idea on its head: instead of removing stages from the random select, you add stages to the random select. Then you can use all of your picks to add neutral stages if that's what you want. Maybe both players get BoX*2 adds, so during a Bo3 there will be 6 stages in the rotation and a Bo5 has 10.
my main takeaway from this is honestly more that top players are afforded a truly ludicrous amount of respect and general consideration *exclusively* because they are good at the video game. even as high up the social ladder as mango (the top) could make an anonymous twitter account tomorrow and start tweeting his opinions and get absolutely *blasted*, it's literally just because the name mango is attached to the opinion that people take it even remotely seriously. which is...kinda not how it should work imo. if your opinion isn't valid/reasonable in anonymity then it isn't valid/reasonable period.
Their takes are taken more seriously because they’re good for a reason they earned that they have credibility. Would you trust a no name talking about basketball or would you trust lebron?? Obviously lebron can still be wrong but his take is still worth a consideration. He didn’t get good at the game without Understanding it
@@4purs being good at a game doesn't make you a smart/reasonable person and it doesn't mean you really understand every facet of it. absolutely not. there should be a nonzero amount of consideration afforded to a player because they're good, but the extent of it in melee is WAY too far. like orders of magnitude too far. does this video not provide you with an obvious example of top players having room temperature iq takes? when you step back and think about it, this happens all the fucking time.
i kinda cant believe that anyone is on [player name]'s side. Juggleguy has done so much for melee, and adding a stage in doubles that could be banned (and also isnt as chaotic as mk1 or rainbow cruise or big blue etc) is super inconsequential to the outcome of a SIDE BRACKET does not warrant condemnation of an entire series that has been the backbone of the whole scene.
From what I've seen, even the most pro-[player name] people agree that they were a jerk to Juggleguy and that how they reacted was just terrible. [player name] themselves put out a video saying as much. Dismissing doubles as a "side bracket" has the same energy as casuals dismissing comp play, tho. The player in question takes doubles more seriously than singles. It's important to them, and changing the rules for a competitive event after people have paid for flights, hotels, and taken time off work isn't really fair, even if in this case Juggleguy is trying to do a good thing. That's not a hot take at all, I think they're absolutely right on that, but that by no means justifies their crappy behavior. Also, if you read the rules for TBH11, there are still no stage bans in doubles in Bo5 sets, so it can't just be banned.
@@Archrid i meant that there should be bans in Bo5 if people are this upset about a stage, not that it was an option already. im a huge doubles fan, i think the way the combo game gets even more interesting in a game already known for that is really cool, but it has definitely seen a decline in popularity which is why we're having this conversation in the first place. i dont see how calling it a side bracket is the same as casuals dismissing competitive play or how those are related at all, actually? the vast majority of doubles players are also entering singles, so hotels and such would be reserved anyway and i sure hope no one feels strongly enough about this one stage to cancel reservations/entry fees. its not adding items, or making it single elim or a change to the rules in that way. 1 ban would work well for this reason, but we have to wait and see if any other TOs want to experiment with changes like this to spice up other formats if its going to lead to controversy. i just think any complaints about this are petty and indefensible considering all that TBH and Juggleguy have done for us all. It seems like every couple months, a top player will throw a temper tantrum and because they're good at the game people give them WAAAAY too much leniency and take these spur of the moment meltdowns seriously.
@@umjammerrox Yeah, I agree that there should be a ban in Bo5s with KJ64. I didn't say you calling it a side bracket was the same as casuals dismissing comp, I said it was the same energy. You're dismissing/downplaying/trivializing (pick your favorite) a competitive thing that is important to people. To me, that's the same energy as people calling Melee a children's party game that shouldn't be taken seriously. Also, changing rules after people have paid for admission, flights, hotels, taken time off, etc. is absolutely a legitimate thing to complain about. Again, it comes from a good place from Juggleguy, but it's still totally legit to take exception to that. If you can't see why, that's a you issue. People like Toph and Zain have agreed with that. And again, there are still no bans in Bo5 even with it on. [player name] was a jerk, we've been over that, there's no need to drag that out again. Cheers.
Of course you will have weenies who started playing 5 years ago that will flip out at any change from the "norm" Simple fact is the scene doesn't exist without viewers. Players can always play for free if they want to drive the game into the dirt with stale rules
Redacted individual is CG Zodd (Milkman ssbm) and I kinda have to side with him because I see his point that as a competitor it may be jarring to see rules change over a short span of time.
Dude come on you can say milkman's current tag bro let's not go the other way he would appreciate the follows i'm pretty sure given he loves giving hot takes
I think you and him had a point but failed both with the wording. What i think Smash (especially Melee) discourse needs more is less of this bashing someone on impulse replying and more constructive and understandable arguments between others. Not too long ago Mono made a semi joke tweet about his gripes with Riptide's hypocritical mask rules and got treated like some kind of enemy to the community by members of the MeleeStats team that won't be named here even after he told them his reasoning for the tweet and stated his opinion to them with no hate going towards anyone in that Discord chat. I feel like any feedback to something that's not overwhelmingly positive gets morphed into drama fuel or hate towards the people who make the choices as if the criticism doesn't come from people who love playing and spectating competitive. Things like the rankings, BOXX controllers, unfrozen stadium and co. have been part of daily social media discussion since over a year if not longer now yet it always feels like the TOs and headfigures in charge always pretend like no one's speaking up or adressing these things and when someone falls into the tone of the individual who made that tweet under that Kongo Jungle announcement it suddenly gains the attention of them but not in a way where discourse and actual change happens but rather in a way where the worst possible reply is put on display to discourage opinions close to the shown one. I don't think any of you guys do this with some kind of evil or selfish intentions but there is a clear gap in and lack of communication with y'all when there are issues.
I legitimately think the nature of social platforms like Twitter has led to people habitually bashing others instead of presenting a coherent argument. Outrage gets a lot of attention and interactions on Twitter, not to mention the algorithm begins feeding you more and more of that type of content should you choose to interact with it, exacerbating the problem. As a result, we end up with funny interactions like this where Toph didn’t even process the user name of the person posting (not that the ‘who’ is significant, just funny that it got glossed over entirely) and flames a guy who is flaming another guy. … which then leads to other people flaming Toph. It’s a vicious cycle!
1:50 I think you have just ascended to some higher level of online fame. I think about this a lot but.. we did not evolve to have millions of people all over the world seeing our content and being able to instantly interact with it. and if someone is just being hostile for no reason it makes you want to reply like the old forum days. and once you get to a certain size it must be huge. I am not well known but I am also not unknown, I have a few thousand followers and I get a lot of engagements all the time, and it is completely time consuming and eats my life responding to people, yet I still do it. I haven't reached that level where I can just filter out the noise. But I'm sure if you are some mega famous person you are just used to ignoring it all as noise unless it really gets your goose. It must take some training to master the art of not caring what people tweet to you, but I'm sure at your level of fame it becomes a necessary skill
Random aside, i fucking hate the whole redacted thing, like its somehow a crime to refer to someone else who did something wrong. Like youre somehow condoning their bad actions because you talk about them in the context of a childrens video game for the nintendo gamecube. But America is going insane, what can i say.
People joke about it, but the melee community has become increasingly left-wing and increasingly militant and shrill about enforcing political uniformity through social pressure. While this culture of social ostracization and groupthink applies mainly to politics, it bleeds over to general discourse. It's pushed a lot of people away from the community, which has become increasingly filled with the sort of people who respond "good riddance" to that. So it becomes a vicious (or virtuous, if you prefer) cycle.
I don't think it's that deep, mobs exist on the internet. It's not really a thing exclusive to smash, if people are fans of someone, there's going to be a subset of fans who absolutely would harass someone else on their behalf. It's good to get ahead of things regardless of whether it happens or not
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Framing Juggleguy's decision as merely "catering to viewers" honestly seems like doing him a disservice. KJ64 isn't even that crazy of a stage for doubles.
So true, I'm so excited to play on KJ64 and I'm competing in doubles at BH11
Unfortunately, I don't think this perspective takes into account the fact of high-level competition. The reason stages like KJ64 were banned is because they enable noninteractive play as the best strategy for victory. For instance, any character with poor vertical speed is going to greatly struggle against circle camping on the stage. With money on the line, at the highest levels of play, KJ64 competition devolves into uninteresting and anticompetitive play.
@@JKJCreationsLLC No ones going to circle camp in doubles lmao.
And even if you and your doubles partner are both playing characters with poor vertical mobility (which is already super unlikely to begin with), you can just ban the stage.
@@drakejoshofficialyoutubech5569 and then your opponent gets a free ban
@@JKJCreationsLLCmassive counterplay in doubles against this compared to singles (why it got banned)
I think the reaction to juggleguy went too far for a change that could be easily ignored by using the ban having an extra stage gives you.
Tos should cater to dk mains
UH UH
I'm playing WoW right now and let me tell you the whiplash I got from reading "Terms of service should cater to death knight mains"
Juggleguy gonna sub to Ringler's OF
The DK mains don't need their help, apparently.
No matter who this was a reply to, it was the correct reply, lol.
Being honest most melee players don't give a shit about doubles. I feel like a lot of people who don't usually care about the format only started caring once Juggleguy changed the ruleset says to me that people don't actually care about dubs and are getting involved in twitter drama just cause. There's no way all these people who normally don't care about dubs are getting up in arms cause of a change to a format (that Juggleguy is right needs spicing up if people are gonna care again), then it seems like empty anger.
Honestly I've watched a lot of melee and followed it over the years but my favourite things I've watched are mostly non-bracket stuff, like Super smash con Combo Contest, Summit, this event (OS), Lud's events, charity stuff. Melee hype is down, I think the viewership is not what it once was, if Melee wants to survive I think they need to focus more on content rather than just streaming brackets and doubles.
Not every event should be fun focused, but a certain amount of events per year should be focused on fun and entertaining viewers with random side events and things to meme out about, rather than purely competition.
Wake up babe, Papa Toph uploaded
A few weeks ago EE came to Seattle to commentate a ultimate tournament hosted by Nintendo themselves, brinstar and kongo jungle were legal(state was randomized) and items were too. Besides the anti nintendo spam and grindy sweats everyone loved it and as a melee player who just tuned in, i really liked it more than any random ultimate set or melee set. Since it wasnt for much reward - the players seemed to enjoy it too (there werent too rly top players there but still) and i feel probably it helped some viewers and competetors want to enter and watch more smash tournaments going forward
Anyways love hearing your news recap for this Toph
My airliner:
>Your flight was moved 3 hours
>Deal with it
>What are you gonna do? Book another plane that's flying to your exact destination at the exact hour you need it to? Not possible
TBH12:
>We're adding a fun stage because it will be fun
>mass outrage because of early bird registration
>deal with it
>what are you gonna do? Book another supermajor that's running the same weekend?
Participants need to realize they actually have 0 power here and they never did- complaining about this is like yelling into the void
What if, we drop all level bans, and before a best of 5, the players or teams strike out stages until only 5 are left, then those are played randomly. Let the players decide their craziness.
This is an amazing idea for a format, I wonder if selecting your opponent's character (or using random chars every time) would improve it?
@@NinjaLobsterStudios I can imagine one person who uses his first bans to remove all neutrals, so I think maybe there should be some rule to keep 2 neutrals at least.
@@speadskater maybe flip the idea on its head: instead of removing stages from the random select, you add stages to the random select. Then you can use all of your picks to add neutral stages if that's what you want. Maybe both players get BoX*2 adds, so during a Bo3 there will be 6 stages in the rotation and a Bo5 has 10.
@@NinjaLobsterStudios so, a mathematical weight?
my main takeaway from this is honestly more that top players are afforded a truly ludicrous amount of respect and general consideration *exclusively* because they are good at the video game.
even as high up the social ladder as mango (the top) could make an anonymous twitter account tomorrow and start tweeting his opinions and get absolutely *blasted*, it's literally just because the name mango is attached to the opinion that people take it even remotely seriously. which is...kinda not how it should work imo. if your opinion isn't valid/reasonable in anonymity then it isn't valid/reasonable period.
Their takes are taken more seriously because they’re good for a reason they earned that they have credibility. Would you trust a no name talking about basketball or would you trust lebron?? Obviously lebron can still be wrong but his take is still worth a consideration. He didn’t get good at the game without Understanding it
@@4purs being good at a game doesn't make you a smart/reasonable person and it doesn't mean you really understand every facet of it. absolutely not. there should be a nonzero amount of consideration afforded to a player because they're good, but the extent of it in melee is WAY too far. like orders of magnitude too far.
does this video not provide you with an obvious example of top players having room temperature iq takes? when you step back and think about it, this happens all the fucking time.
i kinda cant believe that anyone is on [player name]'s side. Juggleguy has done so much for melee, and adding a stage in doubles that could be banned (and also isnt as chaotic as mk1 or rainbow cruise or big blue etc) is super inconsequential to the outcome of a SIDE BRACKET does not warrant condemnation of an entire series that has been the backbone of the whole scene.
From what I've seen, even the most pro-[player name] people agree that they were a jerk to Juggleguy and that how they reacted was just terrible. [player name] themselves put out a video saying as much. Dismissing doubles as a "side bracket" has the same energy as casuals dismissing comp play, tho. The player in question takes doubles more seriously than singles. It's important to them, and changing the rules for a competitive event after people have paid for flights, hotels, and taken time off work isn't really fair, even if in this case Juggleguy is trying to do a good thing. That's not a hot take at all, I think they're absolutely right on that, but that by no means justifies their crappy behavior. Also, if you read the rules for TBH11, there are still no stage bans in doubles in Bo5 sets, so it can't just be banned.
@@Archrid i meant that there should be bans in Bo5 if people are this upset about a stage, not that it was an option already. im a huge doubles fan, i think the way the combo game gets even more interesting in a game already known for that is really cool, but it has definitely seen a decline in popularity which is why we're having this conversation in the first place. i dont see how calling it a side bracket is the same as casuals dismissing competitive play or how those are related at all, actually? the vast majority of doubles players are also entering singles, so hotels and such would be reserved anyway and i sure hope no one feels strongly enough about this one stage to cancel reservations/entry fees. its not adding items, or making it single elim or a change to the rules in that way. 1 ban would work well for this reason, but we have to wait and see if any other TOs want to experiment with changes like this to spice up other formats if its going to lead to controversy. i just think any complaints about this are petty and indefensible considering all that TBH and Juggleguy have done for us all. It seems like every couple months, a top player will throw a temper tantrum and because they're good at the game people give them WAAAAY too much leniency and take these spur of the moment meltdowns seriously.
@@umjammerrox Yeah, I agree that there should be a ban in Bo5s with KJ64. I didn't say you calling it a side bracket was the same as casuals dismissing comp, I said it was the same energy. You're dismissing/downplaying/trivializing (pick your favorite) a competitive thing that is important to people. To me, that's the same energy as people calling Melee a children's party game that shouldn't be taken seriously.
Also, changing rules after people have paid for admission, flights, hotels, taken time off, etc. is absolutely a legitimate thing to complain about. Again, it comes from a good place from Juggleguy, but it's still totally legit to take exception to that. If you can't see why, that's a you issue. People like Toph and Zain have agreed with that. And again, there are still no bans in Bo5 even with it on.
[player name] was a jerk, we've been over that, there's no need to drag that out again. Cheers.
The barrel takes skill
Toph being too nice
The remaining 60% of the video that wasn't ----'d out was pretty good
Rules should cater to making more money for the scene. Every stock should pause for a sponsor spot. Every game should end with commercials.
Babe wake up! Toph dropped some sick content!!
gonna keep it real... i thought this was about rumble falls this whole time
9001 in the thumbnail whaddup
Of course you will have weenies who started playing 5 years ago that will flip out at any change from the "norm"
Simple fact is the scene doesn't exist without viewers. Players can always play for free if they want to drive the game into the dirt with stale rules
Who are redacted and redacted?
Redacted individual is CG Zodd (Milkman ssbm) and I kinda have to side with him because I see his point that as a competitor it may be jarring to see rules change over a short span of time.
My assumption was DJ Nintendo and The Moon, but mostly because I can't think of any other doubly-redacted doubles teams.
@@NobleT3am why is toph referring to milkman as redacted?
@@vegaplus420 to avoid creating more drama
The redacted Tweeter is MilkMan, I believe the redacted team is DJ Nintendo and The Moon.
Dude come on you can say milkman's current tag bro let's not go the other way he would appreciate the follows i'm pretty sure given he loves giving hot takes
I think you and him had a point but failed both with the wording.
What i think Smash (especially Melee) discourse needs more is less of this bashing someone on impulse replying and more constructive and understandable arguments between others.
Not too long ago Mono made a semi joke tweet about his gripes with Riptide's hypocritical mask rules and got treated like some kind of enemy to the community by members of the MeleeStats team that won't be named here even after he told them his reasoning for the tweet and stated his opinion to them with no hate going towards anyone in that Discord chat.
I feel like any feedback to something that's not overwhelmingly positive gets morphed into drama fuel or hate towards the people who make the choices as if the criticism doesn't come from people who love playing and spectating competitive.
Things like the rankings, BOXX controllers, unfrozen stadium and co. have been part of daily social media discussion since over a year if not longer now yet it always feels like the TOs and headfigures in charge always pretend like no one's speaking up or adressing these things and when someone falls into the tone of the individual who made that tweet under that Kongo Jungle announcement it suddenly gains the attention of them but not in a way where discourse and actual change happens but rather in a way where the worst possible reply is put on display to discourage opinions close to the shown one.
I don't think any of you guys do this with some kind of evil or selfish intentions but there is a clear gap in and lack of communication with y'all when there are issues.
I legitimately think the nature of social platforms like Twitter has led to people habitually bashing others instead of presenting a coherent argument. Outrage gets a lot of attention and interactions on Twitter, not to mention the algorithm begins feeding you more and more of that type of content should you choose to interact with it, exacerbating the problem.
As a result, we end up with funny interactions like this where Toph didn’t even process the user name of the person posting (not that the ‘who’ is significant, just funny that it got glossed over entirely) and flames a guy who is flaming another guy.
… which then leads to other people flaming Toph. It’s a vicious cycle!
1:50 I think you have just ascended to some higher level of online fame. I think about this a lot but.. we did not evolve to have millions of people all over the world seeing our content and being able to instantly interact with it. and if someone is just being hostile for no reason it makes you want to reply like the old forum days. and once you get to a certain size it must be huge. I am not well known but I am also not unknown, I have a few thousand followers and I get a lot of engagements all the time, and it is completely time consuming and eats my life responding to people, yet I still do it. I haven't reached that level where I can just filter out the noise. But I'm sure if you are some mega famous person you are just used to ignoring it all as noise unless it really gets your goose. It must take some training to master the art of not caring what people tweet to you, but I'm sure at your level of fame it becomes a necessary skill
I think a lot of people dont realize that the viewers dont wanna watch the wack stages. It all leads to camping. All of em.
I really enjoyed a lot of the whack stages at OS2. Some of the games on Corneria were excellent
I respectfully, strongly disagree lol
Bless up
So you were ok with flaming a random person but as long as it was your friend, you think their opinion is valid. Interesting
Did you even watch the video? He literally said it was a dumbass opinion regardless
@@creepz9886 and then doubled down cause its juggleguy
nah zodd was right that change was TRASH
Random aside, i fucking hate the whole redacted thing, like its somehow a crime to refer to someone else who did something wrong. Like youre somehow condoning their bad actions because you talk about them in the context of a childrens video game for the nintendo gamecube. But America is going insane, what can i say.
lol
This is actually very reasonable, good take
the community has made intros like these necessary, and that to me is pretty interesting.
People joke about it, but the melee community has become increasingly left-wing and increasingly militant and shrill about enforcing political uniformity through social pressure. While this culture of social ostracization and groupthink applies mainly to politics, it bleeds over to general discourse.
It's pushed a lot of people away from the community, which has become increasingly filled with the sort of people who respond "good riddance" to that. So it becomes a vicious (or virtuous, if you prefer) cycle.
@tahmeedhossain9092 They have no idea how many good people they've driven away
@@_archimedes Exactly what militant left-wing politics do you see in the melee community? I'd like to know what you think
I don't think it's that deep, mobs exist on the internet. It's not really a thing exclusive to smash, if people are fans of someone, there's going to be a subset of fans who absolutely would harass someone else on their behalf. It's good to get ahead of things regardless of whether it happens or not
Lmao😂😂 saying "don't harass people" is pushing left wing politics now.