I want to share our experience in Venezuela (and a little bit of LATAM as well) regarding online tournaments: When covid hit, obviously online was a great way of playing and getting good practice. I would say, the general skill level grew exponentially more since covid, as we could play cross country during 2020-2021. It was a blessing for us since traveling was (and still is) hard for a lot of us, due to being pricey or not having good infrastructure for it. We don't have that much in-person tournaments either, so the scene wasn't growing much. That's why online means so much for us. People that have never met or seen each other could play basically at CRT levels of consistency (fiber internet has been widely available in the country since a couple of years ago), so the scene grew together like never before. Online has meant so much for us that we include those tournaments in our rankings. Our 2023 PR will count them (just not as much as in-person). We think recognizing the players that cannot travel, considering it's not easy for the majority of us, is the most important thing. And I haven't mentioned how that allowed us to play against people from the East Coast, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Colombia, and a big part of Central America without many issues. We have been able to reconnect with Venezuelan Melee players that are now immigrants in a lot of cities because of online, and they enter our tournaments being either in Bogotá or Toronto. And that's priceless to us. No need of big money pots, just the sheer joy of playing the game we love :)
We do a similar thing in Italy. We have online weeklies on Thursdays which don't really count much for PRs, a more tryhard online monthly that counts, and then we also count offline tournaments. Having a relatively small scene that's scattered across the country and sees crossover mostly through online play makes it kind of necessary for us.
Like 15% of the reason online Melee is dead is because Melee figureheads decided that 2020 and 2021 would not have official rankings. Which in my opinion, was a dogshit decision. Add in the unfortunate reality that North America is way too large for low ping Melee, and Nintendo fuckery, and it's no surprise online Melee has died. But the community collectively telling Mang0 and Zain their two years of dominance did not matter was salt in the wound and made sure that online tournaments would never ever be taken seriously.
we could host online melee tournies similar to how private servers work for mmos. Technically hosted by an anonymous person who is offshore in some random place like Sweden or wherever its outside jurisdiction. No one to go after really except the people they would already go after like the Slippi team or streamers just for streaming it. We enter without our real names, we pay with hard to trace methods etc and just continue as normal underground, just online. The same way they can't stop a private local practically speaking.
Honestly this makes me really happy to hear a deep discussion on Online and it's part in the community. As someone that used to SOLELY play online, and only just recently started going to locals on a once in a monthly/bimonthly basis (can't go to many tournaments due to location and scheduling conflicts), Online means a lot to me, and seeing many players not take it seriously or giving it the credit it deserved. I can understand the flaws in online though and how it's not as perfect as LAN, and I 100% agree with said flaws, but personally I believe Online in a way made melee what it is today because of it, from the rapidly increasing skill ceiling, to the new top players we have today, and to the upcoming players that show so much potential. Really happy that it's being talked about and tournaments are still being hosted despite the communities lack of interest in it. Gonna register for this event and hope to see lots more people do the same and play some melee! Thanks for hosting
I hate that Zain and Mango never got proper recognition during the pandemic. It absolutely should have "counted" if the community is going to continue to push the narrative that everyone is so good now BECAUSE of Slippi.
"I'll be damned to see no online infrastructure, you gotta get through me first" unbelievably based words from kodorin thank you for making it a charity thing too, it's a lot harder to deal with the PR backlash from shutting down a charity event
We could have a series of online tourneys that you get 1x entry, it leads to an in person tourney where winners or maybe like top 4 (round robin pools later) face each other
Kodorin should bring back tmt man the ladder being once a week was real cool and the fact that you get into the main bracket through it was great. I think if he kept it going it could've coexisted with ranked but can't wait for the new tourney series!
I'm sure the internet infrastructure in the US actually does suck compared to South Korea, but also keep in mind that the US is absolutely massive in size especially considering the distance between the coasts.
Im not sure if we could ever organize it, but I'd LOVE if we integrated online into tournament play. I was thinking holding a seeding bracket or round robin online pre-tourney would be really cool. It would affect the seeding but not determine it. So lets say Zain has been performing a bit worse recently or something, and he crushes here, he might go up a couple seeds determined by a scoring system
Not qualified to give financial advice, but I've heard that if you are doing something that can induce liability and money is exchanged its important to set up a company with the company so that if you get sued the company gets sued and goes bankrupt and you don't get sued personally. No idea if that's 100% true, but definitely something to look into for these new online melee tournaments.
As someone that doesn't play anymore, why is it that every time I check in after a while there's always some drama bullshit going on like damn just play the game
anybody know the game toph made a video about years ago? I can’t find it. It was like this cool rhythm style game that was a girls name I think. He used to be a top player in it. Maybe not a rhythm game lol idk?
Okay I think comparing the US to Korea, as muh as the US definitely could be better, is unfair. The reason they can run big qualifiers online is, because in Korea more than 50% of people live in the Seoul metro area and have a near 0 Ping to the servers. It would be like running an online tournament just in New York.
I feel for the struggle that the pandemic brought to this community, but I do not agree with Kodorin that top-level competition in online events should count towards the same ranking as this competition during in-person events. I have no interest in arguing about this, but I do agree with Toph that it would be valuable for online to have its own ranking as a way to allow for these tournaments to still add to player legacies.
They keep bringing up "playing against hax$" as a reason online sucks, does he have bad Internet or do people just not like playing vs box? Or is it the controversy?
We should retrograde because we can see the after effects of it and if it was really inflated or not (not really because Mang0 and Zain was the better 2 players when we shortly returned )
I hope the online community isn't pushed aside because of Nintendo is able to kill that after what it did for us during COVID then I'm actually done with melee and Nintendo in general .
I can't believe this "better internet infrastructure" rhetoric is still a thing. South Korea and Japan are microscopic compared to the size of the US. Comparing an average connection in these countries to a connection between California and New York and blaming the "infrastructure" is fucking ridiculous.
@@RespectedSpice that's because the Slippi team aren't transparent with the community. Anther ran it all for free, for years, with 20 times as many features. Melee died when Slippi ranked came out behind a paywall.
Online melee and our community has successfully killed the life of our in person scene. Our community is devoid of passion and full of ego now. Been saying this since 2021
who's they? fizzi gave melee rollback netcode and basically saved melee during the pandemic. i don't even play ranked and i'm glad to give him money. he said that he was planning on making ranked free after it was out of beta, and one of the most popular opinions upon release was that he should keep charging for it.
SIGN UP FOR JONATHAN KO'S CHARITY HERE: www.start.gg/kcm
ONLINE IS DEAD ONLY IF I'M DEAD
I want to share our experience in Venezuela (and a little bit of LATAM as well) regarding online tournaments:
When covid hit, obviously online was a great way of playing and getting good practice. I would say, the general skill level grew exponentially more since covid, as we could play cross country during 2020-2021. It was a blessing for us since traveling was (and still is) hard for a lot of us, due to being pricey or not having good infrastructure for it. We don't have that much in-person tournaments either, so the scene wasn't growing much. That's why online means so much for us. People that have never met or seen each other could play basically at CRT levels of consistency (fiber internet has been widely available in the country since a couple of years ago), so the scene grew together like never before.
Online has meant so much for us that we include those tournaments in our rankings. Our 2023 PR will count them (just not as much as in-person). We think recognizing the players that cannot travel, considering it's not easy for the majority of us, is the most important thing. And I haven't mentioned how that allowed us to play against people from the East Coast, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Colombia, and a big part of Central America without many issues. We have been able to reconnect with Venezuelan Melee players that are now immigrants in a lot of cities because of online, and they enter our tournaments being either in Bogotá or Toronto. And that's priceless to us. No need of big money pots, just the sheer joy of playing the game we love :)
We do a similar thing in Italy.
We have online weeklies on Thursdays which don't really count much for PRs, a more tryhard online monthly that counts, and then we also count offline tournaments. Having a relatively small scene that's scattered across the country and sees crossover mostly through online play makes it kind of necessary for us.
Like 15% of the reason online Melee is dead is because Melee figureheads decided that 2020 and 2021 would not have official rankings. Which in my opinion, was a dogshit decision. Add in the unfortunate reality that North America is way too large for low ping Melee, and Nintendo fuckery, and it's no surprise online Melee has died. But the community collectively telling Mang0 and Zain their two years of dominance did not matter was salt in the wound and made sure that online tournaments would never ever be taken seriously.
While I agree that Zain and Mang0 deserve way more credit for online, with rankings what do you expect non NA players to do?
we could host online melee tournies similar to how private servers work for mmos. Technically hosted by an anonymous person who is offshore in some random place like Sweden or wherever its outside jurisdiction. No one to go after really except the people they would already go after like the Slippi team or streamers just for streaming it. We enter without our real names, we pay with hard to trace methods etc and just continue as normal underground, just online. The same way they can't stop a private local practically speaking.
Wouldn't be able to stream it on twitch though
Sounds way too convoluted to get many players to agree to it
Its monero time
That doesn't work because then it can't be streamed and won't have an audience
It’s not about streaming it. It’s about getting sponsors that are willing to sign up for something legally ambiguous
Honestly this makes me really happy to hear a deep discussion on Online and it's part in the community. As someone that used to SOLELY play online, and only just recently started going to locals on a once in a monthly/bimonthly basis (can't go to many tournaments due to location and scheduling conflicts), Online means a lot to me, and seeing many players not take it seriously or giving it the credit it deserved. I can understand the flaws in online though and how it's not as perfect as LAN, and I 100% agree with said flaws, but personally I believe Online in a way made melee what it is today because of it, from the rapidly increasing skill ceiling, to the new top players we have today, and to the upcoming players that show so much potential. Really happy that it's being talked about and tournaments are still being hosted despite the communities lack of interest in it. Gonna register for this event and hope to see lots more people do the same and play some melee! Thanks for hosting
So glad this channel is getting vids again. Highkey one of my fav channels on RUclips
watching the toph talks streams is a good way to get more content :)
@@LilypadOW i figure, just personally never been a stream watcher. Might have to for that sweet toph content
I hate that Zain and Mango never got proper recognition during the pandemic. It absolutely should have "counted" if the community is going to continue to push the narrative that everyone is so good now BECAUSE of Slippi.
I absolutely 100% support a retrorank for those years. We’ve retroranked other years before. This needs done too.
bro mango was the one who downplayed online
KCM sounds like a very cool idea. Appreciate the efforts.
"I'll be damned to see no online infrastructure, you gotta get through me first"
unbelievably based words from kodorin
thank you for making it a charity thing too, it's a lot harder to deal with the PR backlash from shutting down a charity event
Kadence the goat
Heck yeah! Kodorin is a legend. I don't play Melee currently... but I will support the charity drive and be watching on the 28th!
i missed ur vids toph ty
damn this took such a wholesome turn, hugeeee W kodorin
We could have a series of online tourneys that you get 1x entry, it leads to an in person tourney where winners or maybe like top 4 (round robin pools later) face each other
6:52 that’s some extreme COPIUM lmao bro if that delay was that important to your play, you’d be beating Cody offline
Kodorin should bring back tmt man the ladder being once a week was real cool and the fact that you get into the main bracket through it was great. I think if he kept it going it could've coexisted with ranked but can't wait for the new tourney series!
I'm sure the internet infrastructure in the US actually does suck compared to South Korea, but also keep in mind that the US is absolutely massive in size especially considering the distance between the coasts.
Hell yea kodorin, thanks for bringing eyes on this toph
It would be great if online tourneys could create bracket runs that prioritize closer connections
Im not sure if we could ever organize it, but I'd LOVE if we integrated online into tournament play. I was thinking holding a seeding bracket or round robin online pre-tourney would be really cool. It would affect the seeding but not determine it. So lets say Zain has been performing a bit worse recently or something, and he crushes here, he might go up a couple seeds determined by a scoring system
5:30 Except Korea is like the size of a small US state. It's not really different infrastructure. It's just more local.
where did u go 😩
Not qualified to give financial advice, but I've heard that if you are doing something that can induce liability and money is exchanged its important to set up a company with the company so that if you get sued the company gets sued and goes bankrupt and you don't get sued personally. No idea if that's 100% true, but definitely something to look into for these new online melee tournaments.
We dont victim blame. Nintendo killed it
I couldn't possibly hate Nintendo any more than I do, fuck Nintendo
Introducing the: behind of a 7Eleven at 3:00am invitational
Prize pool: 20 bucks
prize pool: a big bite, big gulp, and a taquito
The Sfat popoff dance is my favorite online moment personally. That and hbox passing out
Why would online "not count"
As someone that doesn't play anymore, why is it that every time I check in after a while there's always some drama bullshit going on like damn just play the game
There needs to be an online version of the rankings, get on it Luminosity!
anybody know the game toph made a video about years ago? I can’t find it. It was like this cool rhythm style game that was a girls name I think. He used to be a top player in it. Maybe not a rhythm game lol idk?
catherine, it's a puzzle game
Okay I think comparing the US to Korea, as muh as the US definitely could be better, is unfair. The reason they can run big qualifiers online is, because in Korea more than 50% of people live in the Seoul metro area and have a near 0 Ping to the servers. It would be like running an online tournament just in New York.
I feel for the struggle that the pandemic brought to this community, but I do not agree with Kodorin that top-level competition in online events should count towards the same ranking as this competition during in-person events. I have no interest in arguing about this, but I do agree with Toph that it would be valuable for online to have its own ranking as a way to allow for these tournaments to still add to player legacies.
They keep bringing up "playing against hax$" as a reason online sucks, does he have bad Internet or do people just not like playing vs box? Or is it the controversy?
@@Sheyaraea that's what I thought but what else would be the resson
Id imagine s2j and hax might be on opposite sides of the country, meaning high amount of lag? Not 100% sure though
Holy shit. John Melee
toph save me.. start streaming again..
We should retrograde because we can see the after effects of it and if it was really inflated or not (not really because Mang0 and Zain was the better 2 players when we shortly returned )
“The floor is yours” and goes on to monologue lmao
Love your takes though!
IRL Big House in 2021 could have happened.
love the Adderall grinding of the teeth and random twitching, shows ur locked in
Pretty sure he has Tourette’s…
We are here
We are here
We are here
Bro ignoring the Melee at Night community
only time i watched anybody play smash not in tournys was bobbybigballz and now hes gone and so are tournements
He just streamed 3 days ago…
I hope the online community isn't pushed aside because of Nintendo is able to kill that after what it did for us during COVID then I'm actually done with melee and Nintendo in general .
slippi and covid killed my reigon, everyone would rather play online instead of going to a tourney in CenCal now
I can't believe this "better internet infrastructure" rhetoric is still a thing.
South Korea and Japan are microscopic compared to the size of the US.
Comparing an average connection in these countries to a connection between California and New York and blaming the "infrastructure" is fucking ridiculous.
I AINT FUCKING LEAVIN
Second is the best
No but you sir are :>
Slippi putting ranked behind a paywall killed it
Servers cost money.
@@RespectedSpice Anther did it for free and offered a lot more. Slippi is holding melee back big time right now.
I really don't think people understand what it costs to run slippi @@rumfordc
@@RespectedSpice that's because the Slippi team aren't transparent with the community. Anther ran it all for free, for years, with 20 times as many features. Melee died when Slippi ranked came out behind a paywall.
PINO ON BLAST
Online melee and our community has successfully killed the life of our in person scene. Our community is devoid of passion and full of ego now. Been saying this since 2021
i think the pandemic caused a lot of damage by itself. not fair to attribute it all to online
SCL was the best. So sad it’s gone
I want an only noobs shirt
Kodorin, korea is tiny lmao
Tbh only noobs still going pretty strong
noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Smash Ultimate No Rollback L
Ranked mode is pay walled?😂tf were they thinking
who's they? fizzi gave melee rollback netcode and basically saved melee during the pandemic. i don't even play ranked and i'm glad to give him money.
he said that he was planning on making ranked free after it was out of beta, and one of the most popular opinions upon release was that he should keep charging for it.
@@ursamajor4684 it's clearly affecting online player health and it's been longer than expected for an update. Just a single one. But ok
@@Kotasake had something longer typed out, decided against it. just wanted to let you know that you're very silly and have really bad opinions
@@ursamajor4684 ok lol
@@ursamajor4684 what I responded to you with wasn't an opinion it's literally the facts of the matter kid. Cope harder
🎤x🎙smash melee 👉🤡