I agree with all this. Speakers with active crossovers interest me a lot due to the inherent advantages that setup seems like it would bring… but that interest is not high enough to overcome my fear of dropping a few grand on something that gets EOL’ed and becomes mired in software incompatibilities, years to decades sooner than a passive speaker would develop issues.
Active crossovers are interesting, but they don't have to be built into the speaker and conjoined with an amp. Physically conjoined if you get a plate amp, but active and 'powered speaker' are really two different things - plenty of cheap plate amps just have 2 channels and they are in one speaker with a single channel amplified feed to the other, and there's a passive crossover in each enclosure. Active speakers are carefully engineered drive units (perrhaps costly), and lumber, and wadding and veneer and time. Passive speakers have that, but also a bespoke and fixed crossover. You can't change it. If you junk the speaker, you can remove and reuse the drivers, probably not the cabinets and any glued damping etc - and also the crossover, which can be expensive. You can remove the parts from the crossover in the hope that you might need them again, but they are not easily reusable unless you accumulate a vast library of them. Even analogue active can have a more reusable structure with tuning components - Marchand and others have done this for years.
@@jamesmansion2572 the video was focused on powered speakers, (the amp in the cabinet with the speakers), not whether the crossovers were active or passive, but I take it from your comment that you’d like to see more active speakers that are biased internally and use external amplifiers just like passive speakers.
What a lot of people get wrong is that active doesn’t mean powered. You can have active speakers like the B&W nautilus and still use any amps you want. But most active speaker are also powered because most people don’t want to get a power amp for each driver (the B&W Nautilus requires 8 channels of amplification that can be connected to the active crossover).
Bryston would be another example. The crossover, dsp, and amps are all external to the loudspeaker. A better way of doing it in my opinion. I've owned all in one powered speakers and have had multiple issues with amps going out, and weird intermittent swishing and buzzing noises.
@@ErinsAudioCorner Using outboard actively configured speakers myself with three MC² Audio amps (T-series) and a Xilica DSP with 2-way large horn/compression driver format EV cinema speakers and a pair of tapped horn subs. Good stuff.
I've been rocking in my DJ set-up a pair of JBL 4328Ps for close to a decade. No issues, day in, day out. I've come to realize a long time ago that well designed active speaker will sound better than most passive designs at its given price point. Applying DSP in the crossover makes a huge difference!
I use the same speakers in a 7.2 setup for my work as a game audio sound designer. I have been using them for probably 8 years now and they have just been solid the entire time and sound fantastic hooked up to my jbl intonato. The only issue with the older jbl lsr speaker series is the soft touch plastic finish on the front breaks down over a period of about 10 years and becomes sticky and gunky. But you can remedy that with goo gone and a lot of elbow grease.
Actives are the future, that have been with us for decades, maybe finally getting the attention they deserve. Speaker manufacturers know matching the amp to the drivers will result in the best sound. Cons of course are as Erin outlines. My end game speaker would be some high end active, perhaps ATC, Genelec, etc.
Powered speakers are really superior in so many ways. They can have a dedicated amplifier for each of their drivers and more importantly, those are placed after the digitally controlled crossover so there are no components that heat up and mess with the frequency response over time. Better phase alignment for each driver and higher efficiency given the lack of long speaker cables are also some main advantages of active speakers vs passive ones. My favorite feature is the built in limiters that work in the digital domain to prevent clipping and damage of the drivers in case they are overdriven. Some of them even have delay options so they can be placed in a non equilateral triangle with respect to the listener. For all those reason, I've decided never to go back to passive speakers as the added headache to find a suitable amplifier to power them is not worth it in my opinion.
Great video Erin, with very good points. Thank you! One tip for power speakers is to unplug them completely from the outlet when they are not in use. This extend lifespan alot as even when they are only on standby most of day they will dry out capacitors and other electric components will fail much faster because of electric charge. I still have par of probably most unreliable Mackie SRM450 V2 speakers for more then 10 years and they work perfectly fine with this method. Same for my good old Logitech Z5500 5.1 speakers that are close to 15 years old and they still work like new and I have 2 pairs. Still shake the room quite well.
Basically, if there were < $400 integrated stereo amps that had really good DSP automated room correction, adjustable crossover, bi-amp outputs, and subwoofer outputs, this would save budget passive speakers. (Especially if there were some bi-amp ones in response.) It could also kill lots of high end stuff as well. What about speakers that are purpose built for only this application? They wouldn't need a crossover at all.
That there is what we want :) Something like the MiniDsp SHD Power, but a third the price. i have the shd studio and i need two dac's and two power amps, it is a flexibly solution but maybe the shd power would be better. these things has to get cheaper, just adding dps up the chain just gives parametric eq for the whole signal, as you say the magic happens when you have more channels of dsp, to time align subwoofers and eq them separately, or biamp a tower speaker and dsp the woofer section.
I had an AudioEngine speaker where it developed crackling on one channel. It was not reparable. They offered a discount on a new set, but I felt pretty bad that my originals became landfill material (or e-waste) after only 3 or 4 years. At the same time these are the right type of speakers for my kitchen and I am happy to have active speakers for that usage.
I've noticed that pushing my small powered monitors to moderately loud levels will result in the DSP raising the bass cutoff frequency, in addition to limiting the overall loudness levels. Trying to rock out at party levels is not feasible, and the sound will become lean and bright. My big system, with passive floor standing speakers and powerful amplifiers will play loud without strain, and I can future proof it by upgrading individual components.
Advancements in active electronics and processing offer extraordinary upside ... and are only going to get better. It would seem the ideal approach are active dsp'd platforms with adjacent outboard electronics. An integrated system, ... an outboard box feeding the loudspeaker cabinet (like many of the finest pro audio and studio monitors over the past years). I own several active loudspeaker systems, from $200 to $4k apiece.
Check Sun Audio Purified 4, as far as I understand those are exactly what you propose. Add a miniDSP Flex and some nice amps, and you got a beautiful system indeed.
@@masterblaster2555 Those are nicely done. Some of the finest drive units available today. I read; " ... designed to be driven active with your own crossover and amplifiers" Although that's fine, it's not what I was referring to. I meant a finished system, ie., passive cabinets, powered by matched/tuned outboard electronics. Westlake was an early Pioneer of that approach back in the 70's. ATC, Dynaudio, Augsburger, Alcons, Meyer ... there's so many.
A one brand system thus, very nice indeed, I came along Kudos Audio who partners with Devialet, NAIM, Linn and Exposure, a little different but nicely matched. That being said, I do like the simple/elegant Sun Audio approach because it would allow me to use Dirac Live with Bass Control on PC. Then multichannel output to the new miniDSP Flex HT with some good poweramps and subs should give an awesome result.@@FOH3663
A fully full range analog speaker is a work of art. As I have learned over the years, they don't stay that way. Capacitors dry out. I started the active speaker quest more than 40 years ago. Lots of progress has been made since then with advanced digital filters. I don't see going back. I see it as progress.
Hi Erin. Apologies for bringing up something completely irrelevant, but would it be possible to get the Monolith Coaxial up on Spinorama? Another thing, looking at Monolith's measurements, there doesn't seem to be a dip at 1.7khz like yours. Which is why, I wanna ask, do you think it's possible it's just hidden due to the massive amounts of smoothing they've done, or do you believe there's a chance that the unit you had was faulty?
With Dirac and evolving AI features, passive speakers can now get nearly all the benefits of active, plus optimization for the room. We don’t need active speaker designers to set up the dsp in advance anymore.
Considering you can still buy basically every audio component separately despite years and years of sound bars and bluetooth speakers, not anytime soon. Car audio isn't dead yet despite manufacturers going out of their way to make that difficult. It may shrink, but passives will be a thing for a long time. Especially for home theater. Who wants to run plug ins for a 5.1 setup and up?
I upgraded my old DIY speakers with a miniDSP plate amp. I will never go back to passive speakers. Have never had better sound even with much more expensive passive speakers.
Amen to that. I also (need to) tinker with gear and choices. In that regard, powered 'do-it-all' speakers would feel like a serious limitation to me, not being able to simply swap speakers out. I do like the REW/DSP options, but that goes for passive as well.
Using room correction with passive speakers seems to be the future in my view. I own kef ls50s, revel 126s( I couldn’t pass an open box buy) 226s and with my lyngdorf tdai 3400 I enjoy all 3 speakers. I can correct some of the speakers flaws with equalization. Although the ls50 is by far the poorer performing speaker I am amazed by the sound I can get from such a small box crossed with subs and room correction.
I'm really happy with what my Yamaha R-N2000A does to the sound of my speakers. I especially like the YPAO Volume feature. I can listen at low volume and it sounds like it's much louder than it is. It's crazy. I've even checked with an SPL meter using C weighting and I'm listening at around 65 dB. That not only saves my hearing (I've listened to too much loud music before), but also doesn't drive my wife crazy when I disappear for hours listening.
Haha. My amp before the Lyngdorf was the Yamaha as 2100. I got it crazy cheap when Yamaha discontinued that line for the 1200,2200,3200. My dream speakers are the Yamaha ns 5000. I love Yamaha.
@@matthewfrazee3352 I really like Yamaha too. I was watching for the R-N2000A to come out for months after I saw it was introduced at a German audio show. I was lucky to get in on an Amazon pre sale and got a steep discount. I agree on those speakers. I bet they're great. Erin needs to measure them 😃.
4:44 Dutch & Dutch represents pinnacle reference performance for powered speakers, and are correspondingly priced. One’s budget limitations can help determine if a passive or active approach will provide the best performance for your situation.
I think it's a trade-off in a variety of aspects. I think you hit the nail on the head for the most part in your video. The thing that holds me back constantly from buying affordable high fidelity studio monitors is honestly how hideous they are aesthetically😅 even high-end studio monitors are usually pretty ugly
Good timing - I plug in a new set of Neumanns to try and this video is the first thing I see when I go back to the computer. Gotta say, I'm becoming more and more certain I prefer a good passive speaker myself: - only upgrade or replace components you need when you need - your own choice of DSP implementation, which you can change too - nothing you need to switch or turn precisely on the back of the speaker - I bloody hate how every active speaker I try has audible hiss, even from across the room. For comparison, I have to press my ear against the tweeter of my passives to hear hiss from the 120Wpc amp. And there are newer and better amps with an even lower noise floor. But all-in-one speakers can make things cheap and simple.
Powered speakers are very much the norm (and have been now for probably 20 years) in the pro audio space, for everything below large-scale line arrays. Obviously, it's a lot simpler and more compact than running external amplifiers. Properly designed powered speaker systems solve three other issues: 1)Each amplifier is designed to mate exactly with a given driver (basically all powered systems are bi or tri-amped). 2)DSP does a near-perfect job correcting for crossover issues, EQ flatness, etc. etc. 3)The amplifier's output capability is matched to the driver's power handling capacity, in such a way that you'll hit driver X-max before you hit amplifier clipping, but not by all that much. Couple that with a robust limiting system (and limiter lights to know when you're overdriving things) and you can have a speaker that is basically immune from either burning out the drivers or blowing up the amplifier stage. I spent the better part of a decade DJing nearly every weekend, eventually settling on a pair of 1st gen QSC K12s. They've taken an amazing amount of abuse and never given me one lick of trouble.
I would prefer to see more choice of DSP devices that are not tied to plate amplifiers, as a standalone or as module for cabinet amplifiers. MiniDSP is nice but we need more good competition.
I think if you are using agood speaker with a reasonable load, and a good solid state amplifier capable to delivering its power into that load, AND you are using a good DSP like Dirac, aCCOURATE, or Audiolense, then the difference between a good powered speaker and a good passive is not terribly significant.
Yup. Audioengine 5 electronics getting too hot and dying. Well, no problem, I opened it up and threw out the electronics and made it passive. Works like a charm connected to a Topping mx3s. (Audioengine seems to have fixed the problem with version 5+ though)
@@hypnoz7871no because most people buy low budget actives like klipsch or so and think, that every Active out there brokes in the same time. Need to buy high quality stuff like ATC, Neumann, Genelec where youve an good support and solid Devices that have been on the market for many years
Speakers from Revel or Kef show that good passive speakers can be as good as the best actives. They’re perfectly flat, with linear directivity, good bass and barely any compression at high SPL (bass might be limited compared to actives though). Therefore for home use, passive speakers will still keep existing. Active speakers can achieve all that perfection with DSP and therefore need way less complicated crossover designs and filters which will make them cheaper. It’s also easier to implement stuff like cardiod dispersion bass with actives. In my opinion a perfect active speaker will always be better than a perfect passive speaker (just look at what the Beolab 90 can do with all its drivers and complicated DSP).
all the photos iv seen of kef driver cones torn apart online kept me away from the brand, thoes thin short throw metal break in spectacular fashion, and they are not cheap. wont happen with a properly designed active.. also you only need the speakers and a cheap wiim mini to bring music almost anywhere..downside may be life expectancy, i dont have much faith in my kali`s cheesy chinese caps..but you get what you pay for i guess.
@@einarbk885 the problem with most cheap active studio monitors like the Kali, JBL or even Genelec is that they quickly run out of power. This doesn’t happen with higher end models but those
I finally bought a pair of KEF powered speakers with DSP for the home office and appreciate the convenience, simplicity and audio quality of that setup. I'm not ready to take the plunge for the larger systems in the upstairs and downstairs living areas for a lot of the reasons mentioned herein. First of all, if something in the powered speaker malfunctions - drivers, preamplification/amplification, crossover, etc., the whole system is rendered useless until the issue is remedied. Second, there is no upgrade path as far as preamplification or amplification is concerned. Basically, if you buy a set of powered speakers, you better love them because there are limits to what you can do afterwards.
I like building speakers and trying new drivers / boxes. Getting quality components for analogue filters gets pretty expensive. Since my last two builds i (re)used two Hypex plate Amps. Cost me about a grand, yes. But this adds a whole other level to my hobby. The resulting audio quality of the build is amazing after fine tuning it with software. But would i buy a powered speaker as is from a company, no.
The only powered speakers I could possibly consider are for my pc. Powered speakers are like a combo, printer/scanner/fax. As separates, if one breaks I can send it off repair or replace it while still enjoying the others. In a combo unit, if one breaks. I am SOL for all functions.
You just have to buy from a reputable company. No manufacturer can afford poor support. Especially since studio monitors, for example, sometimes have 5-6 times as much running time as home speakers.
Erin, Based on your review i purchased the JBL 4305P's on an open box for 1,700. after a couple weeks of running them in they really opened up. I have had many brands of passive speakers in my day. And I get what your saying about the DSP theses thing's for just not there size but some floor standing models have better bass punch. My impression they produce instruments accurately hearing things for the first time with out being at all fatiguing, sound stage is decent. I also get what your saying about EQ. but i have a Wiim mini and using that, only needed to drop the 500Hz. by 1db was a little boxy with some vocals now there very smooth from low listening to cranking them up. Hope to one day get there big brothers but for the size of my room 17x19 there perfect. Appreciated..
Linear response is the biggest potential advantage of a powered speaker. In addition to the cons you mentioned there are: (1) specialized umbilical cord of fixed length between the speakers & an AC power cord, that both have to be hidden (2) system connectivity is centered around the main speaker rather than an equipment rack & yet more (possibly long) cables to be hidden. A better solution would be speakers that just contain drive units, a selection of various length specialized speaker cables & a separate unit containing the electronics in the equipment rack!
I agree on many points, mostly those regarding the longevity and problems of having a useless pair of speakers because something in the DSP/amp section breaks. Though I would argue that an actively XO'd (DSP) system with multiway amps is technologically a better way to go. Even better if the manufacturer invests in enough computing power to correct driver issues in detail, and the time to individually measure each driver before writing DSP/XO files for each speaker.
Good considerations! Longevity seems to be an issue with active speakers indeed. I own a pair of BeoLab 5's. A passive design for these is not possible. They sound fantastic, but after 15 years one of the four amplifiers in each speaker stopped working. The electronic modules of both speakers had to be taken out and sent to Denmark for repair. It took about half a year until they came back (partly due to Covid), a bit of a nightmare. I am selling them right now, because I replaced them already with the Beosound Theatre soundbar. Active again, but currently there is simply no better soundbar. If this fellow malfunctions again in 15 years I would be 80 and half deaf anyway...
That’s been my experience with powered speakers. The amps fail or need repair and it’s a pain to repair. The short warranties the manufacturers offer for powered components of powered speakers tell you they know they’ll fail. Too much planned obsolescence in equipment. You can buy an amp and passive speakers and they can last for decades. Good for the consumer. Not good for companies and the companies do what’s best for themselves, not the consumer. Buyer beware. You’re playing right into the manufacturers plans if you buy powered speakers. If people keep buying passive speakers, manufacturers will continue to make them. Think long term. We as consumers are the market and the market rules.
@@BobbyBass-x6i What surprises me was that Bang&Olufsen Beolab 5's, costing around 25'000 Euros the pair, have amps failing after 15 years. At least they repaired them, but this took half a year each and together costed again about 2300 Euros. What I did not tell before is that they forgot to fit the EPROM's required for storing the remote recognition etc.. So I had to send them in again on repair warranty, which took another couple of months. This is ridiculous.
I do not think passive speakers are going anywhere, especially in the upper price points. I will always have passive speakers BUT as a part of my journey, I will be buying a pair of active speakers to put in the smaller iv my two listening rooms to see what they’re all about! Thanks for the video!
We were talking about this on Audio Science Review. You could build a 4 or 5 way tower, use inexpensive amps in each section, and with simple DSP would destroy a Wilson Chrono at a fraction the price and orders of magnitude better flexibility.
Some other considerations: multichannel/home theatre is probably a bit easier on a budget with passives, since you'd need something with pre outs like an X3800H to use with active speakers Also you touched on it a bit, at least at the budget end (JBL, Kali), if you use vinyl, it's probably just easier getting an amp which has phono and passives And again, with the above budget actives, and even the most linear studio monitors, if you want to connect them to a TV and use a sub, things get complicated due to lack of optical, lack of subwoofer out, which can be addressed with a studio sub but at a cost.
The DAC you choose provides the inputs. Most good powered monitors have sub inputs and outputs. I’m using a nice phone preamp from Schiitz audio. Just like passives you can pay as much as you want or can afford.
I think the drawbacks for built-in amplifiers also go for built-in high-level passive crossovers… The problems of built-in high-level passive crossovers: - You cannot exchange them. - They have hardwired settings. - They have very often (also) poor quality components (even the high-end companies, see GR Research on RUclips). - They are unstable, because the load varies with the temperature of the voice coil! - They are very expensive (with high power quality components). - They require bigger amplifiers and power supplies (the more drivers the bigger the difference). And as Siegfried Linkwitz, the grandfather of the passive crossover, already said: “They are a waste of time, if accuracy of reproduction is the goal.” I think the preferred solution is: passive loudspeakers without crossovers (!), (separate or built-in) amplifiers and a separate line-level crossover. This crossover can be: passive (with low power components), ASP (analog and active) or DSP. The DAC can be: separate, built into the DSP, built into the separate amplifier or built into the active amplifier. The beauty is you can have smaller amplifiers, for the more sensitive midrange drivers and tweeters even smaller amplifiers (SET?).
What I don't like much about passives, is SO many of them are 4 ohm now and what many, many people are using at home is a receiver. And most receivers don't care for a 4 ohm load.
Harmon Kardon 247 did not like Monolith Encore C6 used in a l-r config. Even had an extra fan sitting on top the receiver blowing into it. The fan was on medium and it was like 100f outside that day, prob 85f in this room. Shoulda had the fan on high. I noticed the internal fan would not kick on until it was already near meltdown. I did put the receiver through some shit for years and years before this though.
I'm watching this video on a PC with a pair of typical modern powered 3-way monitors with DSP for crossover/curve normalization and per driver amp chip. All my other speakers are not powered, use passive analogue crossovers with coils and caps, and it will stay that way.
If you're doing it correctly, and you must, matching amps to passive speakers can be a nightmare. I bought an amp and speakers from a hi-fi dealer. Great. I held a party, I increased the volume and the speakers clipped. It wasn't that loud. Also, I sat in a bar and they were playing an album I had and I could clearly hear the singer's lyrics. Not so in my separates set-up. On seeing the bar's micro unit that cost a fraction of my separates, I was, to put it mildly, depressed.
My two cents is that the future, at least for 3-way designs, is a powered woofer with active crossover for the woofer and DSP for the woofer. The reason for this hybrid gets to your cons. You can still mix and match amps with the speaker, least for the tweeter and midrange. Better still, the tweeter and midrange usually need far less power than the woofer, opening up more amps to use with the speaker. Powering the woofer separately also allows for the power needed to get maximum bass output the woofer. I think that is the future, especially as good Class D plate amps with DSP are getting more affordable. The plate amp might fail in the future, but as long as it is mounted on the outside of the speaker where I suspect most OEMs would mount it for ventilation reasons, the plate amp could potentially be replaced if needed. To me, this is an ideal approach. I don’t want a DAC/preamp/or streamer in the speaker for the reasons you listed. Just give me DSP to control the in-room bass response where the dimensions of your room are most likely to cause issues.
There must be a reason that there are only a small handful of passive studio monitors available. I think it's because it's easier to make an accurate monitor when it's active. In the home, it's a different game. Most consumers don't desire accuracy, and it's more cost effective and easier to wire some passive speakers to an AVR. For my new home theater, I am debating whether to get JTR for the LCR or similarly priced studio monitors. Many of the large studio monitors are rear ported or have side fireing woofers that won't work for me. All the other speakers will be passive to keep the wiring simpler.
This is something I've been with struggling with internally for a while; I have kanto YU4s with a dayton sub1000, and want to upgrade my audio setup, rather than "side-grade". Conventional thought process tells me to just get the Tuks, or Kali LP6s, or maybe the vanatoo t1 encore+. But at that price range I *do* worry about longevity. I caught my YU4s on sale for $239 and if they died tomorrow, they own me nothing. But if I'm dropping $600+ on a set of speakers and the amp dies in 3 years and I have no support, I'd be very sour. So I think for this go around I'm getting the fosi ZA3, svs SB1000 pro and I'm undecided on the speakers themselves. Thanks for posting!
I think the takeaway here is that,at least for me is that you would be paying a lot more money for just a little better speaker. I auditioned the 698 vs a paradigm monitor 8000 . The JBL was quite a bit nicer
Powered speakers won't be a thing because they won't be able to sell us 2000$ RCA cables 😂 But yeah totally agree with you. I think passive is more future proof and offers more flexibility for the audio enthusiast. It's great that you suggest to make sure to have a good warranty when buying powered speakers. Especially at the high price they sell for! 👍 But maybe good pair of active speakers can have great FR, looks, takes up less space and is simpler to operate 😊 Never forget the WAF! 😋
I have sold every speaker and amplifier I have ever owned, I like the option of selling things off separately. I am now on my “last” speakers and amp…lol….
I don't like much the idea of successive ADC-DAC conversions. Many active (DSP version not analog active filter) are very linear (flat) in an anechoic chamber, although real rooms will mess up and the final result in the sweet spot might be very different. Relatively linear is enough form me, I don't need a ± 2 dB. Great video and very useful arguments Erin. Thank you.
For me there is only one downside to active speakers and that is the hiss. Everything else is a big plus for me. A small desktop speaker that limits its bass output to prevent distortion is genius. No amp/preamp/streamer searching and having to combine them in ugly mismatched stacks that take up way to much space. Or in case of great combination devices cost more than the passive speakers you intend to hook it up to. Give me a pair of the size and performance of Neumann KH 120 but without hiss and i'd gladly spent a lot of money
@FrozenFingers I've owned and used the original Neumann KH 120 A since 2013 and have never experienced any audible hiss (or any other issues). Are you sure you have the input gain set up on them correctly as they have extensive adjustable controls for this, and/or the hiss is not from the source that is feeding them? Side Note: If I were buying today, I would probably go with the newer KH 150 as they aren't all that much larger than the 120. Both are simply fantastic small studio monitors for their price tier and when used as intended.
@FrozenFingers I forgot to mention that I also have a pair of the Kali Audio IN-8 v2. And yes, the original IN-8 was plagued with a noticeable noise floor/hiss even when properly gain staged, so I realize your concerns. Luckily, Kali addressed that issue relatively quickly with the "Second Wave" version that I was fortunate enough to get instead of the first version because I held off buying them because I couldn't decide between the IN-5 and IN-8. 😛 Happy accident. But only time will tell if the less expensive Kali IN-8V2 hold up as long as my OG KH 120 A have without issues (~10 years now).
I had nearly all Neumanns (120, 310, 150 at the moment with 2x 750 subs) and no one has any hearable hiss. Maybe when you stick your ear directly into the waveguide but all are completly quiet. Maybe your dac or source was the reason?!
And always remember that. Nowadays the 4x/8x IN and 8x/16x OUT DSP's have become cheap including good software Why not use a good external dsp and dac. The main thing is that we have fun with our systems and hear all the grass growing ;-)
I have three low priced powered subwoofers that the amps died - the actual speakers and cabinets are fine. I looked into getting one amp repaired - the IC / chip it needed was not available. Replacement plate amps are too expensive, and so is a mono sub amp.
Actually, you can mix and match powered speakers with use of different preamps. Comment on longevity or powered speakers: there are some high quality full analogue products out there if one looks hard enough.
It is kind of weird when most normal amplifiers have fantastic linearity (the harmonics are -100 dBc below) (thx to feedback and high loopgain) most hifi speakers have 50 dB worse nonlinearity than an hifi amplifier => why chase ppm when the speaker is dominating the nonlinearity by 100 times in voltage. I made some low power amplifiers using highperformance OP amps for feedback, the 2 tone intermodulation measurements resulted is harmonics at -98 dBc at 10 kHz, at max output.
I think if one is looking for active speakers, best to go with powered studio monitors from reputable companies with a long track record. For example, if you have Genelec powered monitors from 20 years ago, they'll still service them. I wouldn't get D&D 7C because I don't have confidence the company will exist in 10 years.
I guess I'm old school and prefer passive as a good quality speaker can last for decades vs those powered ones which will likely end up in the dump faster when it dies or no longer serves the user's purpose. But I guess it makes sense for people that care about looks in a non dedicated room.
You just have to buy from a reputable company. No manufacturer of Pro Audio / High End Monitors can afford poor support. Especially since studio monitors, for example, sometimes have 5-6 times as much running time as home speakers
Passive speakers will never die. There's just too much appeal in carefully tuning your source stack to get the best out of speakers, plus it is easier to hide a single set of cables than to do the same for power and data. The speakers can also be smaller if you don't have to integrate amplification and processing. However, this won't prevent more of the market being taken by actives. There are definite benefits to be had from active speakers. They're eminently convenient since you just need to provide them either a line in or digital audio signal, so you can skip a bulky and expensive amplifier stage, you can run active crossovers and include DSP correction onto the signal processing board, etc. I think the balance will shift in the market over time, but you'd be hard pressed to make a case that passives will be entirely eliminated.
Very valid points. However, in my case as well as a big percent of us out there spend more per on sub woofers that are btw powered and don't complain. My disappointment is that WISA didn't make an impact and I thought that would be the future of every level powered speakers especially in H.T. set ups.
I believe powered speakers are indeed the future, especially desktop systems. They are convenient, easy to setup, and space-saving. If you want to prevent the speakers getting "out-dated" tech wise, then I believe the best way is to get a system with just the speaker and amplifier in one cabinet, think professional studio monitors, for example. That way you can still have a good separate source, and a pair of speakers that can last a very long time. My first such system is still working after 11 years.
Currently in the market for powered speakers to use on my desktop. I’m excited for the lack of clutter. I’ll be replacing an amp/Dac and passive speakers. Probably going with the PSB Alpha AM5’s
Great topic. The least reliable component in all of Hi-Fi is unquestionably the subwoofer plate amp. Now, active speakers usually have something very similar, and we'd be justified in questioning their longevity even though pro speakers have employed this design philosophy for quite some time. The KEF LS60, for instance, I've heard in the event of a failure needs to be shipped to the manufacturer...the WHOLE thing. IMO, the best designs are a hybrid approach like the JBL M2. Passive cabinets with no crossovers, but technically an "active" system as it uses proprietary rack amps with active crossovers. That's really the best of both worlds as the amp is in a less abrasive environment, can be actively cooled, and swapped out if need be while at the same time driving and tuning the known, specific speaker.
I will not own high end powered speakers again. I own a 5.1 setup using all Infinity Intermezzo powered speakers. . I bought these new almost 20 years ago. Although a couple of the bookshelf speakers died about 8 years ago. In today's money those speakers cost nearly $5K for a pair of book shelfs alone. Now only one the four of the bookshelf speakers, the center speaker and sub are still functional. The problem with getting them repaired is the fact that replacement parts are not longer available so those aluminum framed speakers are truly boat anchors. I still use the sub and center channel with my current passive setup. I also own a pair of JBL 6328 active studio monitors. One has died so now have to find someone to trouble shoot those as well. While one can run into the same issues with A/V receivers, I find that I replace those more frequently due to technological advancements. When it comes to low cost computer speakers I will usually go active.
Maybe good to understand from a historical point of view, but active speakers are as old as the first tube radio's. Which are basically just active speakers with a radio integrated. I would never get a powered speaker that relies on updates.
My Snell type E passives and HK 930 got a great laugh out of this video, they said what nonsense is this! 😂 All jokes aside, i loved the klipsch nines, but anything powered worries me long term, especially when ive saw and had many built in amps go bad very quick, so no passives will never die. If the built in amp goes bad in those powered models and their discontinued (as they usually do) you have 2 options, a pretty paperweight you can part out, or in the end turn them into passives as a last resort anyway!
I have three sets of speakers and amps I like. Down the road if these should develop issues, I would probably look for a high performance for price monitor useful for near/midfield listening. By then, I'll probably be in an efficiency apt anyway unencumbered by too much useless stuff. Speakers and a separate dac/streamer probably the way to go by then.
A remark: 4Ω speakers don’t need more power, they require exactly the same power as their 8Ω counterparts with the same SPL output! At the same voltage a 4Ω speaker requires double the amount of current and gives 3 dB more output. At the same output the current is (only) √2 times (41%) higher and the voltage is divided by √2 (71%), and the power is exactly the same. So, with 4Ω speakers you have some less headroom in current, but some more headroom in voltage. Edit: It is the power sensitivity rating that dictates the power needed, the nominal impedance has no impact.
i had some powered speakers, and listen to quite a few in shops, had a plate amp for diy powered speakers. they all has same hiss noise issues. so that is not good for me nearfield. now i have a separate dsp unit and use passive speaker. some of the best of both worlds, but a bit more amps and dacs to get it all working. but i can place the amps away and only the "digital preamp" near me, so my desk still is clutter free.
@@ErinsAudioCorner Agreed! When I said budgeted, that’s several hundred dollars; there is obviously a certain minimum expenditure needed to avoid it being downright junk, so I actually wasn’t going there, but thanks for pointing out that my comment was “unclear.” “On the flip side,” I don’t believe in paying more than a couple grand for powered. 😉
There is definitely a breaking point. I’d be interested to know where that is. My experience says $300 is where powered begins to make more sense in terms of overall product “efficiency”.
@@ErinsAudioCorner I‘m lucky to own a pair of KEF LS 50, 2nd generation plus a KEF KC 62 subwoofer. And the sub is the icing. Half of all instruments sound incomplete without the first octave. (20-40 hz). The predecessor, a pair of Mordaunt Short 914i, had a nice midrange and upper balance too, but a sound depth makes you relax.
I own three sets of active speakers, after owning lots of passives ones. Really love the active designs. All very different nevertheless. No need for expensive cables and difficult amp matching. I’ve got focal cms studio monitors, dutch & dutch (❤) and Kef LS60. The latter really is a smart all in one speaker, with great sound for the price. Oh yes, I also own several active subwoofers.
My favorite thing to do is take a pair of passive speakers and see if i can make it sound better with a DSP and separate amps for each driver. When you finally get it set correctly it is a great feeling when it sounds much better than the way the manufacturer had it.
@@sudd3660 That is what I use to do and still do sometimes but when I discovered FIR filters and rephase that was a game changer. I don't think passive crossovers are not going anywhere but DSP with Finite Impulse Response filters and rephase is the way to go.
What do you think of combining the best of best worlds? I. e. just having a speaker without the passive crossover and connecting the tweeter, (mid-)woofers with your DSP-Amplifier. This way could still play around with the amps, DSP, etc. and also have the advantage of swapping gear. The only thing missing here are such (non-diy-)speakers. Would be cool, if manufacturers would just equip their passive speakers with switches to bridge the crossover-network - ét voila. 🙂
@@ErinsAudioCorner Yep - that's what I meant, but was missing the correct term for that 😅 But for the fully active speakers I still either only see DIY-speakers or Boutique-Speakers. What I would prefer would be a simple switch at the back of me passive speaker to bypass its internal crossover network. This should work with no hassle, as long as the speaker the same amount of speaker-terminals as it has drivers (or at least intended "ways")?! I currently only know of the Nubert nuvero 170, where you can accomplish something like that - although only for its woofers and not the complete speaker (+ they are waaayyy to expensive...)...
@@ErinsAudioCorneryes, that is what I do and for me there's no going back. The result can be superb and the education gained from the optimization process is priceless. But then, I'm a control freak 😊.
I certainly hope powered speakers don't become the rule. Mostly because electronics in my experience don't outlast the loudspeaker itself. And let's face it, the vast majority of powered loudspeaker manufacturers are not going carry the electronic parts used in their powered loudspeakers amplifiers for more than five years after that particular loudspeaker model is discontinued. That essentially makes that powered loudspeaker a disposable commodity.
But but but,, is it OK to have a shoe-box, painted as an integrated amp in the middle of my Genelec-SAM,s,, 🤔? Cheers Erin,, ☕😅🍰. Thank you so much for the answer in the last video. ❣🙏❣
I don't think passives are going anywhere but the product development will likely shift towards higher end because consumers on a budget and are newly entering this market are likely going to move towards powered options for reasons such as convenience, simplicity, and price which provides decent sound for most people. In addition to that, budget conscious buyers are likely going to look at the used market for deals instead of new budget speaker offerings. If a used passive speaker is working and undamaged, it's bound to keep working for many years down the line due to how simple the electronics are (at most you only need to replace capacitors compared to a failed integrated amplifier). This only leaves a target market that is wealthier who wants to dive head first into a passive setup or upgrade. I don't think it is feasible for a company to only produce passive speakers if they want to survive in this current era. This is why many companies have changed their marketing and product development strategies to focus on powered speakers (such as JBL) and why companies like Bose are so successful even though their products are known to have poor sound quality.
If they replace our playing with tube rolling and components with playing with settings in the distant future then maybe. If there is a system which gets so technologically powerful and cheap, where we can take a speaker connect it to the processor/amp to be fully active with separate amps for each driver, with crossover options that anyone can do, maybe options for dispersion patterns of our speakers, then yeah , that would be super cool Until then passives aren’t going anywhere. The more technology gets advanced the more it gets cheaper and integrated into common place. Then maybe. But I think that will take a long time. If it were medicine it would progress a lot quicker. Or military tech. Lol Tons of research into that. Great video ! Not many companies are spending millions in audio research for a luxury/hobby of audio.
I don't like powered speakers using ADC/DAC combos for the analogue inputs. Most pro speakers do this now. Amps do sound different. I hate the ones that color the sound such as sounding warmer.
I think a well-executed passive crossover will always be tonally superior to an electronic crossover, especially in the tweeter and midrange, so the ideal solution is probably an active crossed woofer, class D amplified and mids and higs passive crossed with a class AB amplifier
nope. you can't say in blind test what type of crossover is used. that's a progress of a last decade. imagine what will be made in a nearest future. "will always" - oh c'mon.
Active crossovers are superior to passive crossovers, especially when implemented in DSP. Back in the day, people worried that the cathode ray tube in their expensive TV would fail, so grew the rental companies who covered that cost. Don't get nostalgic over old speakers, they weren't that great, and modern designs are superior in every way. If you really like tinkering with your system, then build your own speakers, for hours of endless fun.
An interesting take. I'm not sure the warranty issue is so much of a big deal - over time capacitors fail, and drive units fail, and warranty (and unsupported legacy products) are as much of an issue. Possibly less if you are relying on latest digital interconnects tech. I feel the answer is just to take the crossover out of the box. Get the Hypex that you need and put it in a custom stand. Then you can tweak and play to heart's content. If you want to play more, get a multichannel DAC, make sure you have 32 bit if software volume, and try different power amps. Playing just got a lot cheaper than it was, so long as you believe its in speakers and crossovers as the dominant factor. Playing with different crossovers? Just your time. Different drivers and enclosures? Well - get a kit or raw bits, some extra binding posts, and plan on an external crossover. You don't have so many variables to change - but changing is much, much less expensive, and more related to tuning in-situ, or trying things that would be financially unviable. The biggest disadvantage would seem to be that resale is much lower, but then - if we buy low level components that we understand and assemble, and it doesn't work out, then we can disassemble and try a different combination. A speaker stand with a decent nCore DSP amp in it, is reusable, and maleable..
if you don't think different amps sound different... then I don't know what to say. I have a VTC NC1200, a Benchmark AHB2, and a Moon 330a and they all sound very different
I think there are some fine powered speakers out there and even use them for computer audio. However, for 2 - Channel most likely there never will be a full-on powered speaker purchased. Even the designs that have built-in powered woofers, but let you use your own amp for mid-range and treble I balk at. It is as you say, when I invest in something I want to be in control. I do not care for the milk toast sonics of most class D or AB typology in integrateds or separates to begin with. So, I definitely do not want one chosen for me by the speaker's maker. Needless to say, I want some romance in the sound of my amps. I lean towards things that have a house sound. There are some wonderful Tube, Class A, Class AB, and even class D technologies out there to partake of. I want the freedom to choose and decide for myself what I like, and not have someone dictate to me what they think I'm supposed to enjoy.
How long do passive speakers last? I wish Genelec The Ones were more affordable and have at least five years warranty, I would replace all my passive speakers!
I think that choice, in any market place can only be beneficial to the consumer. I think we will witness a huge growth in the popularity of active speakers. But, I think there will always be a demand for passive systems, all be it a neesh market. A classic example is class D amplification. 20 years ago, class D was almost a swear word to hardened audiophiles. Now, it is commonplace even in the ultra high end market. Me, I’m old school. A purest, a set and forget audiophile. Although I appreciate the many pros of active systems, it’s not a road I’ve ventured down. But, I never say never. My system comprises of 2 monoblocks powering the low frequency drivers in my substantial floorstanders and 2 smaller monoblocks powering the mid and high frequency drivers. One of those monoblocks has failed and is in the workshop. Had my system been active, I’d have no means of music reproduction. But, whilst that monoblock is being serviced, my system is managing quite nice on one pair of monoblocks. All I had to do is reconnect the jumper straps on the speakers, which took seconds. Further more, if an active system fails, you have to uproot the whole kit and caboodle and transport it to your nearest service centre. I merely had 1 component to carry.
With active speakers how many power cords are running along walls on how many outlets or surge protectors? With passive speakers it is only one speaker wire with no real waist of electricity. I have 2 electric Bluetooth sub woofers and 2 sound bars and that's it. That's a total of 4 powered sound systems and 8 passive satellite speakers with none waisting electricity. With Passive speakers from sound bar companies shouldn't we be able to add more or be able to upgrade the passive one way speakers they offer to better 2 way or 3 way bookshelf speakers for far better surround sound?
thats why most wannabee ,, audiophiles,, also have no idea. Just look how many spend zero into room acoustics. Self-proclaimed audiophiles tend to think less about what is really important (room acoustics) - preferring to chatter about cables, amplifier sound and gadgets without knowing anything. Its more a ridiculous group of people
I completely agree with you Erin. First, my opinion, but virtually all powered speakers have class D plate amps / which introduce more harmonic distortion than a class A/B amp, or class H. For subs, not an issue since only the lower spectrum is covered ( 80 hz and below ) where sonically it does not interfere with my music enjoyment. I also like total control over my system - something powered speakers take away from you.
Powered speakers with built-in amps have long been known to have the amp fail within 5 years of use. Regardless of the brand. Add built-in processor/dac/dsp and multiple digital and analog inputs, and the result is threefold. Highly questionable longevity concern, obsolescence of the digital dsp program, and likely unreliability. I've owned several large full range powered towers without active built in processing. In all of them the amp went bad inside of 5 years, and in one the amp failure caused crossover damage. In the long run powered speakers are for the casual audio listener to use for background music and parties. They're not for dedicated audiophiles.
One tip for power speakers is to unplug them completely from the outlet when they are not in use. This extend lifespan alot as even when they are only on stand by most of day they will dry out capacitors and other electric components will fail much faster because of electric charge. I still have par of most unreliable Mackie SRM450 V2 for more then 10 years and they work perfectly fine with this method. Same for my old Logitech Z5500 5.1 speakers that are close to 15 years old and they still work like new.
You just have to buy from a reputable company. No manufacturer can afford poor support or short lifetime. Especially since studio monitors, for example, sometimes have 5-6 times as much running time as home speakers. From what Brands are those Actives ? (ATC, Neumann, Genelec, PSI Audio, Me Geithain...?!)
The low cost switching power, D-class AMP and the DSP are game changers
I agree with all this. Speakers with active crossovers interest me a lot due to the inherent advantages that setup seems like it would bring… but that interest is not high enough to overcome my fear of dropping a few grand on something that gets EOL’ed and becomes mired in software incompatibilities, years to decades sooner than a passive speaker would develop issues.
Active crossovers are interesting, but they don't have to be built into the speaker and conjoined with an amp. Physically conjoined if you get a plate amp, but active and 'powered speaker' are really two different things - plenty of cheap plate amps just have 2 channels and they are in one speaker with a single channel amplified feed to the other, and there's a passive crossover in each enclosure.
Active speakers are carefully engineered drive units (perrhaps costly), and lumber, and wadding and veneer and time. Passive speakers have that, but also a bespoke and fixed crossover. You can't change it. If you junk the speaker, you can remove and reuse the drivers, probably not the cabinets and any glued damping etc - and also the crossover, which can be expensive. You can remove the parts from the crossover in the hope that you might need them again, but they are not easily reusable unless you accumulate a vast library of them. Even analogue active can have a more reusable structure with tuning components - Marchand and others have done this for years.
@@jamesmansion2572 the video was focused on powered speakers, (the amp in the cabinet with the speakers), not whether the crossovers were active or passive, but I take it from your comment that you’d like to see more active speakers that are biased internally and use external amplifiers just like passive speakers.
I like the idea of multi-amplification... albeit more so from a DIY perspective.
What a lot of people get wrong is that active doesn’t mean powered.
You can have active speakers like the B&W nautilus and still use any amps you want.
But most active speaker are also powered because most people don’t want to get a power amp for each driver (the B&W Nautilus requires 8 channels of amplification that can be connected to the active crossover).
Correct.
Bryston would be another example. The crossover, dsp, and amps are all external to the loudspeaker. A better way of doing it in my opinion. I've owned all in one powered speakers and have had multiple issues with amps going out, and weird intermittent swishing and buzzing noises.
@@ErinsAudioCorner Using outboard actively configured speakers myself with three MC² Audio amps (T-series) and a Xilica DSP with 2-way large horn/compression driver format EV cinema speakers and a pair of tapped horn subs. Good stuff.
I've been rocking in my DJ set-up a pair of JBL 4328Ps for close to a decade. No issues, day in, day out. I've come to realize a long time ago that well designed active speaker will sound better than most passive designs at its given price point. Applying DSP in the crossover makes a huge difference!
I use the same speakers in a 7.2 setup for my work as a game audio sound designer. I have been using them for probably 8 years now and they have just been solid the entire time and sound fantastic hooked up to my jbl intonato.
The only issue with the older jbl lsr speaker series is the soft touch plastic finish on the front breaks down over a period of about 10 years and becomes sticky and gunky. But you can remedy that with goo gone and a lot of elbow grease.
Actives are the future, that have been with us for decades, maybe finally getting the attention they deserve. Speaker manufacturers know matching the amp to the drivers will result in the best sound. Cons of course are as Erin outlines. My end game speaker would be some high end active, perhaps ATC, Genelec, etc.
Powered speakers are really superior in so many ways. They can have a dedicated amplifier for each of their drivers and more importantly, those are placed after the digitally controlled crossover so there are no components that heat up and mess with the frequency response over time. Better phase alignment for each driver and higher efficiency given the lack of long speaker cables are also some main advantages of active speakers vs passive ones. My favorite feature is the built in limiters that work in the digital domain to prevent clipping and damage of the drivers in case they are overdriven. Some of them even have delay options so they can be placed in a non equilateral triangle with respect to the listener. For all those reason, I've decided never to go back to passive speakers as the added headache to find a suitable amplifier to power them is not worth it in my opinion.
Great video Erin, with very good points. Thank you! One tip for power speakers is to unplug them completely from the outlet when they are not in use. This extend lifespan alot as even when they are only on standby most of day they will dry out capacitors and other electric components will fail much faster because of electric charge. I still have par of probably most unreliable Mackie SRM450 V2 speakers for more then 10 years and they work perfectly fine with this method. Same for my good old Logitech Z5500 5.1 speakers that are close to 15 years old and they still work like new and I have 2 pairs. Still shake the room quite well.
Basically, if there were < $400 integrated stereo amps that had really good DSP automated room correction, adjustable crossover, bi-amp outputs, and subwoofer outputs, this would save budget passive speakers. (Especially if there were some bi-amp ones in response.) It could also kill lots of high end stuff as well. What about speakers that are purpose built for only this application? They wouldn't need a crossover at all.
That there is what we want :)
Something like the MiniDsp SHD Power, but a third the price.
i have the shd studio and i need two dac's and two power amps, it is a flexibly solution but maybe the shd power would be better.
these things has to get cheaper, just adding dps up the chain just gives parametric eq for the whole signal, as you say the magic happens when you have more channels of dsp, to time align subwoofers and eq them separately, or biamp a tower speaker and dsp the woofer section.
I had an AudioEngine speaker where it developed crackling on one channel. It was not reparable. They offered a discount on a new set, but I felt pretty bad that my originals became landfill material (or e-waste) after only 3 or 4 years. At the same time these are the right type of speakers for my kitchen and I am happy to have active speakers for that usage.
I've noticed that pushing my small powered monitors to moderately loud levels will result in the DSP raising the bass cutoff frequency, in addition to limiting the overall loudness levels. Trying to rock out at party levels is not feasible, and the sound will become lean and bright. My big system, with passive floor standing speakers and powerful amplifiers will play loud without strain, and I can future proof it by upgrading individual components.
Advancements in active electronics and processing offer extraordinary upside ... and are only going to get better.
It would seem the ideal approach are active dsp'd platforms with adjacent outboard electronics.
An integrated system, ... an outboard box feeding the loudspeaker cabinet
(like many of the finest pro audio and studio monitors over the past years).
I own several active loudspeaker systems, from $200 to $4k apiece.
Check Sun Audio Purified 4, as far as I understand those are exactly what you propose. Add a miniDSP Flex and some nice amps, and you got a beautiful system indeed.
@@masterblaster2555
Those are nicely done. Some of the finest drive units available today.
I read;
" ... designed to be driven active with your own crossover and amplifiers"
Although that's fine, it's not what I was referring to. I meant a finished system, ie., passive cabinets, powered by matched/tuned outboard electronics.
Westlake was an early Pioneer of that approach back in the 70's.
ATC, Dynaudio, Augsburger, Alcons, Meyer ... there's so many.
A one brand system thus, very nice indeed, I came along Kudos Audio who partners with Devialet, NAIM, Linn and Exposure, a little different but nicely matched.
That being said, I do like the simple/elegant Sun Audio approach because it would allow me to use Dirac Live with Bass Control on PC. Then multichannel output to the new miniDSP Flex HT with some good poweramps and subs should give an awesome result.@@FOH3663
A fully full range analog speaker is a work of art. As I have learned over the years, they don't stay that way. Capacitors dry out.
I started the active speaker quest more than 40 years ago. Lots of progress has been made since then with advanced digital filters. I don't see going back. I see it as progress.
Just my opinion. Yours are sincerely welcomed. The how’s and whys for your opinion are encouraged.
Hi Erin. Apologies for bringing up something completely irrelevant, but would it be possible to get the Monolith Coaxial up on Spinorama? Another thing, looking at Monolith's measurements, there doesn't seem to be a dip at 1.7khz like yours. Which is why, I wanna ask, do you think it's possible it's just hidden due to the massive amounts of smoothing they've done, or do you believe there's a chance that the unit you had was faulty?
With Dirac and evolving AI features, passive speakers can now get nearly all the benefits of active, plus optimization for the room. We don’t need active speaker designers to set up the dsp in advance anymore.
Considering you can still buy basically every audio component separately despite years and years of sound bars and bluetooth speakers, not anytime soon. Car audio isn't dead yet despite manufacturers going out of their way to make that difficult. It may shrink, but passives will be a thing for a long time. Especially for home theater. Who wants to run plug ins for a 5.1 setup and up?
I upgraded my old DIY speakers with a miniDSP plate amp. I will never go back to passive speakers. Have never had better sound even with much more expensive passive speakers.
Amen to that. I also (need to) tinker with gear and choices. In that regard, powered 'do-it-all' speakers would feel like a serious limitation to me, not being able to simply swap speakers out. I do like the REW/DSP options, but that goes for passive as well.
Using room correction with passive speakers seems to be the future in my view. I own kef ls50s, revel 126s( I couldn’t pass an open box buy) 226s and with my lyngdorf tdai 3400 I enjoy all 3 speakers. I can correct some of the speakers flaws with equalization. Although the ls50 is by far the poorer performing speaker I am amazed by the sound I can get from such a small box crossed with subs and room correction.
I'm really happy with what my Yamaha R-N2000A does to the sound of my speakers. I especially like the YPAO Volume feature. I can listen at low volume and it sounds like it's much louder than it is. It's crazy. I've even checked with an SPL meter using C weighting and I'm listening at around 65 dB.
That not only saves my hearing (I've listened to too much loud music before), but also doesn't drive my wife crazy when I disappear for hours listening.
Haha. My amp before the Lyngdorf was the Yamaha as 2100. I got it crazy cheap when Yamaha discontinued that line for the 1200,2200,3200. My dream speakers are the Yamaha ns 5000. I love Yamaha.
@@matthewfrazee3352 I really like Yamaha too. I was watching for the R-N2000A to come out for months after I saw it was introduced at a German audio show. I was lucky to get in on an Amazon pre sale and got a steep discount.
I agree on those speakers. I bet they're great. Erin needs to measure them 😃.
4:44 Dutch & Dutch represents pinnacle reference performance for powered speakers, and are correspondingly priced. One’s budget limitations can help determine if a passive or active approach will provide the best performance for your situation.
I think it's a trade-off in a variety of aspects. I think you hit the nail on the head for the most part in your video. The thing that holds me back constantly from buying affordable high fidelity studio monitors is honestly how hideous they are aesthetically😅 even high-end studio monitors are usually pretty ugly
I often wonder if that's deliberate.
@@Douglas_Blake_579"Brutally Ugly"
D&D 8C is pretty good-looking. And so is the Mum-8, and more affordable. PSI isn't ugly - just plain looking. Same for my Adam Audio S3V.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 They are saving money on cabinetry and putting it into the guts. They also save money on grills.
@@abboberg
I suppose some of that is happening, but a lot of these monitors are just butt ugly.
Good timing - I plug in a new set of Neumanns to try and this video is the first thing I see when I go back to the computer.
Gotta say, I'm becoming more and more certain I prefer a good passive speaker myself:
- only upgrade or replace components you need when you need
- your own choice of DSP implementation, which you can change too
- nothing you need to switch or turn precisely on the back of the speaker
- I bloody hate how every active speaker I try has audible hiss, even from across the room. For comparison, I have to press my ear against the tweeter of my passives to hear hiss from the 120Wpc amp. And there are newer and better amps with an even lower noise floor.
But all-in-one speakers can make things cheap and simple.
Powered speakers are very much the norm (and have been now for probably 20 years) in the pro audio space, for everything below large-scale line arrays. Obviously, it's a lot simpler and more compact than running external amplifiers.
Properly designed powered speaker systems solve three other issues: 1)Each amplifier is designed to mate exactly with a given driver (basically all powered systems are bi or tri-amped). 2)DSP does a near-perfect job correcting for crossover issues, EQ flatness, etc. etc. 3)The amplifier's output capability is matched to the driver's power handling capacity, in such a way that you'll hit driver X-max before you hit amplifier clipping, but not by all that much. Couple that with a robust limiting system (and limiter lights to know when you're overdriving things) and you can have a speaker that is basically immune from either burning out the drivers or blowing up the amplifier stage.
I spent the better part of a decade DJing nearly every weekend, eventually settling on a pair of 1st gen QSC K12s. They've taken an amazing amount of abuse and never given me one lick of trouble.
I would prefer to see more choice of DSP devices that are not tied to plate amplifiers, as a standalone or as module for cabinet amplifiers. MiniDSP is nice but we need more good competition.
I think if you are using agood speaker with a reasonable load, and a good solid state amplifier capable to delivering its power into that load, AND you are using a good DSP like Dirac, aCCOURATE, or Audiolense, then the difference between a good powered speaker and a good passive is not terribly significant.
I had multiple actives go to shit, which eventually pushed me to passives. Never been more happy.
Yup. Audioengine 5 electronics getting too hot and dying. Well, no problem, I opened it up and threw out the electronics and made it passive. Works like a charm connected to a Topping mx3s.
(Audioengine seems to have fixed the problem with version 5+ though)
Your speakers got to shit because they were powered (plate amp are all shitty).
Being active doesn't reduce reliabitlity in itself.
@@hypnoz7871no because most people buy low budget actives like klipsch or so and think, that every Active out there brokes in the same time. Need to buy high quality stuff like ATC, Neumann, Genelec where youve an good support and solid Devices that have been on the market for many years
Speakers from Revel or Kef show that good passive speakers can be as good as the best actives. They’re perfectly flat, with linear directivity, good bass and barely any compression at high SPL (bass might be limited compared to actives though).
Therefore for home use, passive speakers will still keep existing.
Active speakers can achieve all that perfection with DSP and therefore need way less complicated crossover designs and filters which will make them cheaper.
It’s also easier to implement stuff like cardiod dispersion bass with actives.
In my opinion a perfect active speaker will always be better than a perfect passive speaker (just look at what the Beolab 90 can do with all its drivers and complicated DSP).
all the photos iv seen of kef driver cones torn apart online kept me away from the brand, thoes thin short throw metal break in spectacular fashion, and they are not cheap. wont happen with a properly designed active.. also you only need the speakers and a cheap wiim mini to bring music almost anywhere..downside may be life expectancy, i dont have much faith in my kali`s cheesy chinese caps..but you get what you pay for i guess.
@@einarbk885 the problem with most cheap active studio monitors like the Kali, JBL or even Genelec is that they quickly run out of power.
This doesn’t happen with higher end models but those
I finally bought a pair of KEF powered speakers with DSP for the home office and appreciate the convenience, simplicity and audio quality of that setup. I'm not ready to take the plunge for the larger systems in the upstairs and downstairs living areas for a lot of the reasons mentioned herein. First of all, if something in the powered speaker malfunctions - drivers, preamplification/amplification, crossover, etc., the whole system is rendered useless until the issue is remedied. Second, there is no upgrade path as far as preamplification or amplification is concerned. Basically, if you buy a set of powered speakers, you better love them because there are limits to what you can do afterwards.
I like building speakers and trying new drivers / boxes. Getting quality components for analogue filters gets pretty expensive. Since my last two builds i (re)used two Hypex plate Amps. Cost me about a grand, yes. But this adds a whole other level to my hobby. The resulting audio quality of the build is amazing after fine tuning it with software. But would i buy a powered speaker as is from a company, no.
The only powered speakers I could possibly consider are for my pc.
Powered speakers are like a combo, printer/scanner/fax. As separates, if one breaks I can send it off repair or replace it while still enjoying the others. In a combo unit, if one breaks. I am SOL for all functions.
You just have to buy from a reputable company. No manufacturer can afford poor support. Especially since studio monitors, for example, sometimes have 5-6 times as much running time as home speakers.
Erin, Based on your review i purchased the JBL 4305P's on an open box for 1,700. after a couple weeks of running them in they really opened up. I have had many brands of passive speakers in my day. And I get what your saying about the DSP theses thing's for just not there size but some floor standing models have better bass punch. My impression they produce instruments accurately hearing things for the first time with out being at all fatiguing, sound stage is decent. I also get what your saying about EQ. but i have a Wiim mini and using that, only needed to drop the 500Hz. by 1db was a little boxy with some vocals now there very smooth from low listening to cranking them up. Hope to one day get there big brothers but for the size of my room 17x19 there perfect. Appreciated..
Linear response is the biggest potential advantage of a powered speaker. In addition to the cons you mentioned there are: (1) specialized umbilical cord of fixed length between the speakers & an AC power cord, that both have to be hidden (2) system connectivity is centered around the main speaker rather than an equipment rack & yet more (possibly long) cables to be hidden. A better solution would be speakers that just contain drive units, a selection of various length specialized speaker cables & a separate unit containing the electronics in the equipment rack!
There's also analogue active speakers. You can play with the DAC and preamp.
I agree on many points, mostly those regarding the longevity and problems of having a useless pair of speakers because something in the DSP/amp section breaks.
Though I would argue that an actively XO'd (DSP) system with multiway amps is technologically a better way to go. Even better if the manufacturer invests in enough computing power to correct driver issues in detail, and the time to individually measure each driver before writing DSP/XO files for each speaker.
Good considerations! Longevity seems to be an issue with active speakers indeed. I own a pair of BeoLab 5's. A passive design for these is not possible. They sound fantastic, but after 15 years one of the four amplifiers in each speaker stopped working. The electronic modules of both speakers had to be taken out and sent to Denmark for repair. It took about half a year until they came back (partly due to Covid), a bit of a nightmare. I am selling them right now, because I replaced them already with the Beosound Theatre soundbar. Active again, but currently there is simply no better soundbar. If this fellow malfunctions again in 15 years I would be 80 and half deaf anyway...
That’s been my experience with powered speakers. The amps fail or need repair and it’s a pain to repair. The short warranties the manufacturers offer for powered components of powered speakers tell you they know they’ll fail. Too much planned obsolescence in equipment. You can buy an amp and passive speakers and they can last for decades. Good for the consumer. Not good for companies and the companies do what’s best for themselves, not the consumer. Buyer beware. You’re playing right into the manufacturers plans if you buy powered speakers. If people keep buying passive speakers, manufacturers will continue to make them. Think long term. We as consumers are the market and the market rules.
@@BobbyBass-x6i What surprises me was that Bang&Olufsen Beolab 5's, costing around 25'000 Euros the pair, have amps failing after 15 years. At least they repaired them, but this took half a year each and together costed again about 2300 Euros. What I did not tell before is that they forgot to fit the EPROM's required for storing the remote recognition etc.. So I had to send them in again on repair warranty, which took another couple of months. This is ridiculous.
I do not think passive speakers are going anywhere, especially in the upper price points. I will always have passive speakers BUT as a part of my journey, I will be buying a pair of active speakers to put in the smaller iv my two listening rooms to see what they’re all about! Thanks for the video!
We were talking about this on Audio Science Review. You could build a 4 or 5 way tower, use inexpensive amps in each section, and with simple DSP would destroy a Wilson Chrono at a fraction the price and orders of magnitude better flexibility.
Some other considerations: multichannel/home theatre is probably a bit easier on a budget with passives, since you'd need something with pre outs like an X3800H to use with active speakers
Also you touched on it a bit, at least at the budget end (JBL, Kali), if you use vinyl, it's probably just easier getting an amp which has phono and passives
And again, with the above budget actives, and even the most linear studio monitors, if you want to connect them to a TV and use a sub, things get complicated due to lack of optical, lack of subwoofer out, which can be addressed with a studio sub but at a cost.
The DAC you choose provides the inputs. Most good powered monitors have sub inputs and outputs. I’m using a nice phone preamp from Schiitz audio. Just like passives you can pay as much as you want or can afford.
I think the drawbacks for built-in amplifiers also go for built-in high-level passive crossovers…
The problems of built-in high-level passive crossovers:
- You cannot exchange them.
- They have hardwired settings.
- They have very often (also) poor quality components (even the high-end companies, see GR Research on RUclips).
- They are unstable, because the load varies with the temperature of the voice coil!
- They are very expensive (with high power quality components).
- They require bigger amplifiers and power supplies (the more drivers the bigger the difference).
And as Siegfried Linkwitz, the grandfather of the passive crossover, already said:
“They are a waste of time, if accuracy of reproduction is the goal.”
I think the preferred solution is: passive loudspeakers without crossovers (!), (separate or built-in) amplifiers and a separate line-level crossover. This crossover can be: passive (with low power components), ASP (analog and active) or DSP. The DAC can be: separate, built into the DSP, built into the separate amplifier or built into the active amplifier.
The beauty is you can have smaller amplifiers, for the more sensitive midrange drivers and tweeters even smaller amplifiers (SET?).
What I don't like much about passives, is SO many of them are 4 ohm now and what many, many people are using at home is a receiver. And most receivers don't care for a 4 ohm load.
Harmon Kardon 247 did not like Monolith Encore C6 used in a l-r config. Even had an extra fan sitting on top the receiver blowing into it. The fan was on medium and it was like 100f outside that day, prob 85f in this room. Shoulda had the fan on high. I noticed the internal fan would not kick on until it was already near meltdown. I did put the receiver through some shit for years and years before this though.
I'm watching this video on a PC with a pair of typical modern powered 3-way monitors with DSP for crossover/curve normalization and per driver amp chip. All my other speakers are not powered, use passive analogue crossovers with coils and caps, and it will stay that way.
If you're doing it correctly, and you must, matching amps to passive speakers can be a nightmare. I bought an amp and speakers from a hi-fi dealer. Great. I held a party, I increased the volume and the speakers clipped. It wasn't that loud. Also, I sat in a bar and they were playing an album I had and I could clearly hear the singer's lyrics. Not so in my separates set-up. On seeing the bar's micro unit that cost a fraction of my separates, I was, to put it mildly, depressed.
My two cents is that the future, at least for 3-way designs, is a powered woofer with active crossover for the woofer and DSP for the woofer. The reason for this hybrid gets to your cons. You can still mix and match amps with the speaker, least for the tweeter and midrange. Better still, the tweeter and midrange usually need far less power than the woofer, opening up more amps to use with the speaker. Powering the woofer separately also allows for the power needed to get maximum bass output the woofer.
I think that is the future, especially as good Class D plate amps with DSP are getting more affordable. The plate amp might fail in the future, but as long as it is mounted on the outside of the speaker where I suspect most OEMs would mount it for ventilation reasons, the plate amp could potentially be replaced if needed. To me, this is an ideal approach. I don’t want a DAC/preamp/or streamer in the speaker for the reasons you listed. Just give me DSP to control the in-room bass response where the dimensions of your room are most likely to cause issues.
For me...that's a no. I've had a bit too many active ones from which the electronics hiss.
There must be a reason that there are only a small handful of passive studio monitors available. I think it's because it's easier to make an accurate monitor when it's active. In the home, it's a different game. Most consumers don't desire accuracy, and it's more cost effective and easier to wire some passive speakers to an AVR. For my new home theater, I am debating whether to get JTR for the LCR or similarly priced studio monitors. Many of the large studio monitors are rear ported or have side fireing woofers that won't work for me. All the other speakers will be passive to keep the wiring simpler.
I love to experiment with different amplifier and speaker combinations. Big part of the fun of it all!! I own both! they can coexist!
And expensive. Not every music lover has such disposable income.
This is something I've been with struggling with internally for a while; I have kanto YU4s with a dayton sub1000, and want to upgrade my audio setup, rather than "side-grade". Conventional thought process tells me to just get the Tuks, or Kali LP6s, or maybe the vanatoo t1 encore+. But at that price range I *do* worry about longevity. I caught my YU4s on sale for $239 and if they died tomorrow, they own me nothing. But if I'm dropping $600+ on a set of speakers and the amp dies in 3 years and I have no support, I'd be very sour.
So I think for this go around I'm getting the fosi ZA3, svs SB1000 pro and I'm undecided on the speakers themselves.
Thanks for posting!
I think the takeaway here is that,at least for me is that you would be paying a lot more money for just a little better speaker. I auditioned the 698 vs a paradigm monitor 8000 . The JBL was quite a bit nicer
Powered speakers won't be a thing because they won't be able to sell us 2000$ RCA cables 😂
But yeah totally agree with you. I think passive is more future proof and offers more flexibility for the audio enthusiast.
It's great that you suggest to make sure to have a good warranty when buying powered speakers. Especially at the high price they sell for! 👍
But maybe good pair of active speakers can have great FR, looks, takes up less space and is simpler to operate 😊
Never forget the WAF! 😋
I have sold every speaker and amplifier I have ever owned, I like the option of selling things off separately. I am now on my “last” speakers and amp…lol….
I don't like much the idea of successive ADC-DAC conversions. Many active (DSP version not analog active filter) are very linear (flat) in an anechoic chamber, although real rooms will mess up and the final result in the sweet spot might be very different. Relatively linear is enough form me, I don't need a ± 2 dB. Great video and very useful arguments Erin. Thank you.
For me there is only one downside to active speakers and that is the hiss. Everything else is a big plus for me.
A small desktop speaker that limits its bass output to prevent distortion is genius.
No amp/preamp/streamer searching and having to combine them in ugly mismatched stacks that take up way to much space. Or in case of great combination devices cost more than the passive speakers you intend to hook it up to.
Give me a pair of the size and performance of Neumann KH 120 but without hiss and i'd gladly spent a lot of money
Good point. Most are getting much better with noise floor but some are still pretty bad.
the one it do weird thing to the sound when you turn it up. distortion
@FrozenFingers
I've owned and used the original Neumann KH 120 A since 2013 and have never experienced any audible hiss (or any other issues).
Are you sure you have the input gain set up on them correctly as they have extensive adjustable controls for this, and/or the hiss is not from the source that is feeding them?
Side Note: If I were buying today, I would probably go with the newer KH 150 as they aren't all that much larger than the 120. Both are simply fantastic small studio monitors for their price tier and when used as intended.
@FrozenFingers
I forgot to mention that I also have a pair of the Kali Audio IN-8 v2. And yes, the original IN-8 was plagued with a noticeable noise floor/hiss even when properly gain staged, so I realize your concerns.
Luckily, Kali addressed that issue relatively quickly with the "Second Wave" version that I was fortunate enough to get instead of the first version because I held off buying them because I couldn't decide between the IN-5 and IN-8. 😛 Happy accident.
But only time will tell if the less expensive Kali IN-8V2 hold up as long as my OG KH 120 A have without issues (~10 years now).
I had nearly all Neumanns (120, 310, 150 at the moment with 2x 750 subs) and no one has any hearable hiss. Maybe when you stick your ear directly into the waveguide but all are completly quiet. Maybe your dac or source was the reason?!
And always remember that. Nowadays the 4x/8x IN and 8x/16x OUT DSP's have become cheap including good software
Why not use a good external dsp and dac.
The main thing is that we have fun with our systems and hear all the grass growing ;-)
I have three low priced powered subwoofers that the amps died - the actual speakers and cabinets are fine. I looked into getting one amp repaired - the IC / chip it needed was not available. Replacement plate amps are too expensive, and so is a mono sub amp.
Actually, you can mix and match powered speakers with use of different preamps. Comment on longevity or powered speakers: there are some high quality full analogue products out there if one looks hard enough.
It is kind of weird when most normal amplifiers have fantastic linearity (the harmonics are -100 dBc below) (thx to feedback and high loopgain)
most hifi speakers have 50 dB worse nonlinearity than an hifi amplifier => why chase ppm when the speaker is dominating the nonlinearity by 100 times in voltage.
I made some low power amplifiers using highperformance OP amps for feedback, the 2 tone intermodulation measurements resulted is harmonics at -98 dBc at 10 kHz, at max output.
I think if one is looking for active speakers, best to go with powered studio monitors from reputable companies with a long track record. For example, if you have Genelec powered monitors from 20 years ago, they'll still service them.
I wouldn't get D&D 7C because I don't have confidence the company will exist in 10 years.
Dsp is game challenging, every speaker should have a dsp crossover. You can make an average speaker sound amazing!
I guess I'm old school and prefer passive as a good quality speaker can last for decades vs those powered ones which will likely end up in the dump faster when it dies or no longer serves the user's purpose. But I guess it makes sense for people that care about looks in a non dedicated room.
You just have to buy from a reputable company. No manufacturer of Pro Audio / High End Monitors can afford poor support. Especially since studio monitors, for example, sometimes have 5-6 times as much running time as home speakers
Passive speakers will never die. There's just too much appeal in carefully tuning your source stack to get the best out of speakers, plus it is easier to hide a single set of cables than to do the same for power and data. The speakers can also be smaller if you don't have to integrate amplification and processing. However, this won't prevent more of the market being taken by actives. There are definite benefits to be had from active speakers. They're eminently convenient since you just need to provide them either a line in or digital audio signal, so you can skip a bulky and expensive amplifier stage, you can run active crossovers and include DSP correction onto the signal processing board, etc. I think the balance will shift in the market over time, but you'd be hard pressed to make a case that passives will be entirely eliminated.
Very valid points. However, in my case as well as a big percent of us out there spend more per on sub woofers that are btw powered and don't complain. My disappointment is that WISA didn't make an impact and I thought that would be the future of every level powered speakers especially in H.T. set ups.
I believe powered speakers are indeed the future, especially desktop systems. They are convenient, easy to setup, and space-saving. If you want to prevent the speakers getting "out-dated" tech wise, then I believe the best way is to get a system with just the speaker and amplifier in one cabinet, think professional studio monitors, for example. That way you can still have a good separate source, and a pair of speakers that can last a very long time. My first such system is still working after 11 years.
Currently in the market for powered speakers to use on my desktop. I’m excited for the lack of clutter. I’ll be replacing an amp/Dac and passive speakers. Probably going with the PSB Alpha AM5’s
Great topic. The least reliable component in all of Hi-Fi is unquestionably the subwoofer plate amp. Now, active speakers usually have something very similar, and we'd be justified in questioning their longevity even though pro speakers have employed this design philosophy for quite some time. The KEF LS60, for instance, I've heard in the event of a failure needs to be shipped to the manufacturer...the WHOLE thing.
IMO, the best designs are a hybrid approach like the JBL M2. Passive cabinets with no crossovers, but technically an "active" system as it uses proprietary rack amps with active crossovers. That's really the best of both worlds as the amp is in a less abrasive environment, can be actively cooled, and swapped out if need be while at the same time driving and tuning the known, specific speaker.
I will not own high end powered speakers again. I own a 5.1 setup using all Infinity Intermezzo powered speakers. . I bought these new almost 20 years ago. Although a couple of the bookshelf speakers died about 8 years ago. In today's money those speakers cost nearly $5K for a pair of book shelfs alone. Now only one the four of the bookshelf speakers, the center speaker and sub are still functional. The problem with getting them repaired is the fact that replacement parts are not longer available so those aluminum framed speakers are truly boat anchors.
I still use the sub and center channel with my current passive setup. I also own a pair of JBL 6328 active studio monitors. One has died so now have to find someone to trouble shoot those as well. While one can run into the same issues with A/V receivers, I find that I replace those more frequently due to technological advancements. When it comes to low cost computer speakers I will usually go active.
I’m still stuck on your claim about amps… Dang. Good on you. I don’t agree of course. But still, good on you.
Maybe good to understand from a historical point of view, but active speakers are as old as the first tube radio's.
Which are basically just active speakers with a radio integrated.
I would never get a powered speaker that relies on updates.
My Snell type E passives and HK 930 got a great laugh out of this video, they said what nonsense is this! 😂 All jokes aside, i loved the klipsch nines, but anything powered worries me long term, especially when ive saw and had many built in amps go bad very quick, so no passives will never die. If the built in amp goes bad in those powered models and their discontinued (as they usually do) you have 2 options, a pretty paperweight you can part out, or in the end turn them into passives as a last resort anyway!
I have three sets of speakers and amps I like. Down the road if these should develop issues, I would probably look for a high performance for price monitor useful for near/midfield listening. By then, I'll probably be in an efficiency apt anyway unencumbered by too much useless stuff. Speakers and a separate dac/streamer probably the way to go by then.
Power speakers got really expensive now , I like using power mixers and passive speakers the set up it’s faster
A remark: 4Ω speakers don’t need more power, they require exactly the same power as their 8Ω counterparts with the same SPL output! At the same voltage a 4Ω speaker requires double the amount of current and gives 3 dB more output. At the same output the current is (only) √2 times (41%) higher and the voltage is divided by √2 (71%), and the power is exactly the same. So, with 4Ω speakers you have some less headroom in current, but some more headroom in voltage.
Edit: It is the power sensitivity rating that dictates the power needed, the nominal impedance has no impact.
i had some powered speakers, and listen to quite a few in shops, had a plate amp for diy powered speakers. they all has same hiss noise issues. so that is not good for me nearfield.
now i have a separate dsp unit and use passive speaker. some of the best of both worlds, but a bit more amps and dacs to get it all working.
but i can place the amps away and only the "digital preamp" near me, so my desk still is clutter free.
🤔I agree that
for compact, budgeted implementations. Powered speakers are a great option, but beyond that I wouldn’t endorse them. 😉
On the flip side, the ones that I tend to find are incredible are the more expensive ones.
@@ErinsAudioCorner Agreed! When I said budgeted, that’s several hundred dollars; there
is obviously a certain minimum expenditure needed to avoid it being downright junk, so I actually wasn’t going there, but thanks for pointing out that my comment was “unclear.” “On the flip side,”
I don’t believe in paying more than a couple grand for powered. 😉
Active means: signal, crossover, amplifier, driver.
Passive means: signal, amplifier, crossover, driver.
Quality is cheaper by active order.
There is definitely a breaking point. I’d be interested to know where that is. My experience says $300 is where powered begins to make more sense in terms of overall product “efficiency”.
@@ErinsAudioCorner I‘m lucky to own a pair of KEF LS 50, 2nd generation plus a KEF KC 62 subwoofer. And the sub is the icing. Half of all instruments sound incomplete without the first octave. (20-40 hz).
The predecessor, a pair of Mordaunt Short 914i, had a nice midrange and upper balance too, but a sound depth makes you relax.
I own three sets of active speakers, after owning lots of passives ones. Really love the active designs. All very different nevertheless. No need for expensive cables and difficult amp matching. I’ve got focal cms studio monitors, dutch & dutch (❤) and Kef LS60. The latter really is a smart all in one speaker, with great sound for the price. Oh yes, I also own several active subwoofers.
My favorite thing to do is take a pair of passive speakers and see if i can make it sound better with a DSP and separate amps for each driver. When you finally get it set correctly it is a great feeling when it sounds much better than the way the manufacturer had it.
or you could have upgraded the crossover.
@@sudd3660 That is what I use to do and still do sometimes but when I discovered FIR filters and rephase that was a game changer. I don't think passive crossovers are not going anywhere but DSP with Finite Impulse Response filters and rephase is the way to go.
For smaller shows/venues, then powered is the way to go. For larger venues, passive all day.
What do you think of combining the best of best worlds?
I. e. just having a speaker without the passive crossover and connecting the tweeter, (mid-)woofers with your DSP-Amplifier. This way could still play around with the amps, DSP, etc. and also have the advantage of swapping gear.
The only thing missing here are such (non-diy-)speakers.
Would be cool, if manufacturers would just equip their passive speakers with switches to bridge the crossover-network - ét voila. 🙂
There is one way you can do this and that’s by going fully active. Separate DSP and amplifiers.
@@ErinsAudioCorner Yep - that's what I meant, but was missing the correct term for that 😅
But for the fully active speakers I still either only see DIY-speakers or Boutique-Speakers.
What I would prefer would be a simple switch at the back of me passive speaker to bypass its internal crossover network. This should work with no hassle, as long as the speaker the same amount of speaker-terminals as it has drivers (or at least intended "ways")?!
I currently only know of the Nubert nuvero 170, where you can accomplish something like that - although only for its woofers and not the complete speaker (+ they are waaayyy to expensive...)...
@@ErinsAudioCorneryes, that is what I do and for me there's no going back. The result can be superb and the education gained from the optimization process is priceless. But then, I'm a control freak 😊.
I certainly hope powered speakers don't become the rule. Mostly because electronics in my experience don't outlast the loudspeaker itself. And let's face it, the vast majority of powered loudspeaker manufacturers are not going carry the electronic parts used in their powered loudspeakers amplifiers for more than five years after that particular loudspeaker model is discontinued. That essentially makes that powered loudspeaker a disposable commodity.
But but but,, is it OK to have a shoe-box, painted as an integrated amp in the middle of my Genelec-SAM,s,, 🤔?
Cheers Erin,, ☕😅🍰. Thank you so much for the answer in the last video. ❣🙏❣
Absolutely! 🤣
@@ErinsAudioCorner You are a true star Erin,, 👍🌟👍
For home audio they don't make sense anymore. What matters the most is price to performance passive speakers are lacking in that aspect
I know it's off topic, but do you have any plans to review the KEF Q550 floor standing speakers? I'd love to see that one day.
I don't think passives are going anywhere but the product development will likely shift towards higher end because consumers on a budget and are newly entering this market are likely going to move towards powered options for reasons such as convenience, simplicity, and price which provides decent sound for most people. In addition to that, budget conscious buyers are likely going to look at the used market for deals instead of new budget speaker offerings. If a used passive speaker is working and undamaged, it's bound to keep working for many years down the line due to how simple the electronics are (at most you only need to replace capacitors compared to a failed integrated amplifier). This only leaves a target market that is wealthier who wants to dive head first into a passive setup or upgrade.
I don't think it is feasible for a company to only produce passive speakers if they want to survive in this current era. This is why many companies have changed their marketing and product development strategies to focus on powered speakers (such as JBL) and why companies like Bose are so successful even though their products are known to have poor sound quality.
Spot on. Exactly how I feel as well.
If they replace our playing with tube rolling and components with playing with settings in the distant future then maybe.
If there is a system which gets so technologically powerful and cheap, where we can take a speaker connect it to the processor/amp to be fully active with separate amps for each driver, with crossover options that anyone can do, maybe options for dispersion patterns of our speakers, then yeah , that would be super cool
Until then passives aren’t going anywhere.
The more technology gets advanced the more it gets cheaper and integrated into common place. Then maybe. But I think that will take a long time.
If it were medicine it would progress a lot quicker.
Or military tech. Lol
Tons of research into that.
Great video !
Not many companies are spending millions in audio research for a luxury/hobby of audio.
I don't like powered speakers using ADC/DAC combos for the analogue inputs. Most pro speakers do this now. Amps do sound different. I hate the ones that color the sound such as sounding warmer.
I think a well-executed passive crossover will always be tonally superior to an electronic crossover, especially in the tweeter and midrange, so the ideal solution is probably an active crossed woofer, class D amplified and mids and higs passive crossed with a class AB amplifier
nope. you can't say in blind test what type of crossover is used. that's a progress of a last decade. imagine what will be made in a nearest future.
"will always" - oh c'mon.
Active crossovers are superior to passive crossovers, especially when implemented in DSP.
Back in the day, people worried that the cathode ray tube in their expensive TV would fail, so grew the rental companies who covered that cost.
Don't get nostalgic over old speakers, they weren't that great, and modern designs are superior in every way.
If you really like tinkering with your system, then build your own speakers, for hours of endless fun.
An interesting take. I'm not sure the warranty issue is so much of a big deal - over time capacitors fail, and drive units fail, and warranty (and unsupported legacy products) are as much of an issue. Possibly less if you are relying on latest digital interconnects tech.
I feel the answer is just to take the crossover out of the box. Get the Hypex that you need and put it in a custom stand. Then you can tweak and play to heart's content. If you want to play more, get a multichannel DAC, make sure you have 32 bit if software volume, and try different power amps.
Playing just got a lot cheaper than it was, so long as you believe its in speakers and crossovers as the dominant factor. Playing with different crossovers? Just your time. Different drivers and enclosures? Well - get a kit or raw bits, some extra binding posts, and plan on an external crossover.
You don't have so many variables to change - but changing is much, much less expensive, and more related to tuning in-situ, or trying things that would be financially unviable.
The biggest disadvantage would seem to be that resale is much lower, but then - if we buy low level components that we understand and assemble, and it doesn't work out, then we can disassemble and try a different combination. A speaker stand with a decent nCore DSP amp in it, is reusable, and maleable..
Do I see Sonus Faber Lumina II back there? :D Nicee!
if you don't think different amps sound different... then I don't know what to say. I have a VTC NC1200, a Benchmark AHB2, and a Moon 330a and they all sound very different
I didn’t say that … 🤷♂️
I think there are some fine powered speakers out there and even use them for computer audio. However, for 2 - Channel most likely there never will be a full-on powered speaker purchased. Even the designs that have built-in powered woofers, but let you use your own amp for mid-range and treble I balk at. It is as you say, when I invest in something I want to be in control. I do not care for the milk toast sonics of most class D or AB typology in integrateds or separates to begin with. So, I definitely do not want one chosen for me by the speaker's maker. Needless to say, I want some romance in the sound of my amps. I lean towards things that have a house sound. There are some wonderful Tube, Class A, Class AB, and even class D technologies out there to partake of. I want the freedom to choose and decide for myself what I like, and not have someone dictate to me what they think I'm supposed to enjoy.
How long do passive speakers last? I wish Genelec The Ones were more affordable and have at least five years warranty, I would replace all my passive speakers!
We really need to get to the point where we get rid of all the a to d conversations, just straight digital to the ad converter in the speaker
I think that choice, in any market place can only be beneficial to the consumer. I think we will witness a huge growth in the popularity of active speakers. But, I think there will always be a demand for passive systems, all be it a neesh market. A classic example is class D amplification. 20 years ago, class D was almost a swear word to hardened audiophiles. Now, it is commonplace even in the ultra high end market.
Me, I’m old school. A purest, a set and forget audiophile. Although I appreciate the many pros of active systems, it’s not a road I’ve ventured down. But, I never say never.
My system comprises of 2 monoblocks powering the low frequency drivers in my substantial floorstanders and 2 smaller monoblocks powering the mid and high frequency drivers. One of those monoblocks has failed and is in the workshop. Had my system been active, I’d have no means of music reproduction. But, whilst that monoblock is being serviced, my system is managing quite nice on one pair of monoblocks. All I had to do is reconnect the jumper straps on the speakers, which took seconds. Further more, if an active system fails, you have to uproot the whole kit and caboodle and transport it to your nearest service centre. I merely had 1 component to carry.
With active speakers how many power cords are running along walls on how many outlets or surge protectors?
With passive speakers it is only one speaker wire with no real waist of electricity. I have 2 electric Bluetooth sub woofers and 2 sound bars and that's it. That's a total of 4 powered sound systems and 8 passive satellite speakers with none waisting electricity.
With Passive speakers from sound bar companies shouldn't we be able to add more or be able to upgrade the passive one way speakers they offer to better 2 way or 3 way bookshelf speakers for far better surround sound?
I love components waaaay tooo much to be trading it all in for a One box do it all.
No , serious audiophiles will always use the higher standard which are separates not active Speakers ..!
thats why most wannabee ,, audiophiles,, also have no idea. Just look how many spend zero into room acoustics. Self-proclaimed audiophiles tend to think less about what is really important (room acoustics) - preferring to chatter about cables, amplifier sound and gadgets without knowing anything. Its more a ridiculous group of people
I completely agree with you Erin. First, my opinion, but virtually all powered speakers have class D plate amps / which introduce more harmonic distortion than a class A/B amp, or class H. For subs, not an issue since only the lower spectrum is covered ( 80 hz and below ) where sonically it does not interfere with my music enjoyment.
I also like total control over my system - something powered speakers take away from you.
Powered speakers with built-in amps have long been known to have the amp fail within 5 years of use. Regardless of the brand. Add built-in processor/dac/dsp and multiple digital and analog inputs, and the result is threefold. Highly questionable longevity concern, obsolescence of the digital dsp program, and likely unreliability. I've owned several large full range powered towers without active built in processing. In all of them the amp went bad inside of 5 years, and in one the amp failure caused crossover damage. In the long run powered speakers are for the casual audio listener to use for background music and parties. They're not for dedicated audiophiles.
One tip for power speakers is to unplug them completely from the outlet when they are not in use. This extend lifespan alot as even when they are only on stand by most of day they will dry out capacitors and other electric components will fail much faster because of electric charge. I still have par of most unreliable Mackie SRM450 V2 for more then 10 years and they work perfectly fine with this method. Same for my old Logitech Z5500 5.1 speakers that are close to 15 years old and they still work like new.
You just have to buy from a reputable company. No manufacturer can afford poor support or short lifetime. Especially since studio monitors, for example, sometimes have 5-6 times as much running time as home speakers. From what Brands are those Actives ? (ATC, Neumann, Genelec, PSI Audio, Me Geithain...?!)
This was a fun one and a solid take