Erin, this is a home run my friend. So well illustrated and explained. Thank you for all of the disclaimers, but don't let the haters get you down. This was FANTASTIC!
This was really fantastic, thank you for putting the effort in. I'm not in the market for more gear at the moment, but I want you to know that I took the time to email SVS and thank them for participating in this video by sending a review speaker and that their openness and support for independent reviewers matters a lot when it comes time for me to upgrade.
@@TheBassallyear100 oh man, if only those Ultra towers were available in a more exciting finish, like cherry/oak/walnut. Black Ash is just the most boring speaker look ever, it is like a silver over black German car. No matter the performance, I look at it and think 'for that much money it should have more presence'.
I have them in piano black and they look amazing idk who wouldn't spend the extra for the piano black. To me they actually look better then they perform. I heard some other cheaper ones that sounded better for a little less money but dear God the piano black was just too good looking to pass and I figured i could always upgrade the internals.
This is probably the best video I have watch. Everyone just talks about timber match speakers and the center speaker being the most important but no one done what you did. Much kudos to you sir. 👏
Erin, this was fabulous data you've shared. Everyone is pretty much told " match the centers with your mains for best linearity " which I found personally is not the case. I'm not surprised though to see how even and wider the sound dispersion is with the KEF Q650C / the methodology behind this design makes it a much better choice. Thanks again for all the work you do brother!
Good video! I used to have my Polk Center Channel speaker below my TV. I could barely hear it unless I turned it up. I moved it about 8-10 inches above my TV (85"), slightly tilted toward my main seating area and it sounds perfect!
Thank you Erin. I was about to purchase a RP-504C II and then saw your reviews and tests. I bought a Monolith THX-365C instead. I am very happy with the 365C. Now I can hear dialogs clearly.
Erin; Nice video and great analysis. Oddly, I posted a response in the comments last night but I don’t see it so here it goes again: You forgot about the worse horizontal offending topology, the infamous TWWWT design. Absolutely dreadful listening experience for anyone that isn’t directly on center. Pink noise aberrations are much easier to hear than actual program material and worth noting. It’s hard to believe we covered this topic over 15 years ago but here is our original article on audioholics. But then I revisited realizing most people don’t sit more than 20 deg off axis and if they do, it’s usually by a side wall and not a good listening or viewing seat anyway. It’s important to note that AT screens are NOT without their issues, especially vinyl ones. I measured significant on/off axis comb filtering on a very expensive screen I’m currently using from Screen Innovations. To overcome some of these issues, you must build the screen OFF the wall to get it away from the speakers and also use heavy absorption material between the speakers. I plan on doing a YT video on this, hopefully soon. IF you ever want to collaborate and come on our channel to discuss these topics, I’m game.
Here are the links for what Gene is talking about: www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/center-channel-speaker
@@ErinsAudioCorner im just thankful for the videos but would love to see the off axis response and handling of monitor audio c350. I kniw thats asking a bit much but im guessing it should similiar to the svs prime with similiar design maybe even better as i would assume monitor audio make a better speaker than svs....
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt calm down, fella. Plenty of people have home theaters where others sit further than 15 degrees off axis. That’s who this was for. Common sense dictates no one sitting on-axis is 15 degrees off axis. It’s in the nomenclature.
Finally, measurement confirmation that MTM speakers should not be laid down on their sides (as almost all center channel speakers are). I've argued this point until I was blue in the face for almost 30 years.
You are correct sir! Most center channel designs are for convenience and ease of placement right under screen. Plus, most seem to be 2-way crossovers. Bad all the way around for best sound. Based on recent research, I’m considering a 3-way vertical alignment to test the difference for myself. I sometimes have trouble hearing dialogue in my HT rig. That’s what started my research. Great topic Erin! 👍🏼😎
I too have been known to argue that center can be used as L/R if you rotate the tweeter. Sometimes to pleasant results. And it’s a good way to save some cash sometimes cause centers go on sale for great deals pretty often.
Erin, you have a robot that measures sound output in 3D...don't act like making slides is the part that makes you a nerd. Absolutely loved this video man! Obviously I am a massive nerd.
OMG - I am so glad that I happened on this video! I have been frustrated for a long time with the poor sound out of my setup and it turned out that my 2-way MTM center channel was a major part of the problem. (The other was that apparently I had a power surge or something that confused my receiver. I did a factory reset and that fixed a lot.) I fund a deal on a prior year Klipsch center channel and once installed the difference was night and day. Thank you so much!
Great content. Over 15 years ago I invested in Definitive Technology ( Sandy Gross era ) picked up BP7001, BP7002 & BP7006 Tower Speakers along with 3x CLR 2002 Centers and Studio Monitors 450 pair & 350 pair. Yes I spent a grip but they are still kicking ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Excellent video! Questions: Would placing an MTM center in a vertical position solve the issue of problematic horizontal dispersion? How does a large tweeter waveguide affect the MTM dispersion? One thing I would add is that some people might want to consider using a center channel and using upmixing for stereo content due to the 2khz interaural crosstalk cancellation that occurs when using only two speakers. A center channel fixes that issue. Dr. Toole talks about this in his book. Good to hear the binaural demo with the Sonic Presence mics. It helps to get an idea of the differences your measurements show.
An MTM center placed upright will have much better horizontal dispersion, but now the vertical is narrow, because the drivers are still far apart in the plane, it’s not the same as a bookshelf/tower, so another reason to go true LCR for an AT projection.
@@homeboi808 My thought is you're much more likely to be within the optimal vertical window if placed that way. Unless you're expecting some people to stand or sit, or if you have multiple rows of seating, it seems like vertical is more advantageous than having it horizontal.
@@joentell true, but you still have the vertical reflections from the ceiling/floor being narrow/point, so to some degree the tonality/soundstage won’t be affected.
@@homeboi808 I'm curious to know why so many people choice a compromised multi seat option over a one hot seat design ? It's not like our family and friends are going to say " you have a dip at 50htz, I'm not impressed " or some crap like that... They will be amazed anyways, or is this hobby multifaceted ? Also curious to know why 99% of people use different speakers everywhere in the first place? Worst thing you can do, yet all but a few do it... Curiouser and curiouser...
Finally !!! Thank you for a tech tutorial about center channel speakers. With old ears & damaged hearing I need all the help on dialogue that I can get from my cc. After a year of research, I narrowed the replacement for my Elac Debut 5.2 cc down to the Kef R2c, the SVS Ultra cc, and the Elac Uni-Fi Ref cc. I ended up with the SVS Ultra and it helped dialogue by a bit on-axis but the improvement off-axis was significant.
Found this video about 8 months ago. It lead me to learning that a speaker brand called "Revel" even existed. I found a great deal on C208... I have never in my entire life heard such clear dialog as I do now. It is a 3-way speaker. Just wanted to say THANK YOU!
Just use the same front speaker as center , so much better. What I did was use 2 , 3 way centers and both set up not budded up against one other to prevent cancellations. Also important to note , they are both driven by dedicated amps (so not put in series or anything) Works really well to get the a insane wide horizontal dispersion.
Could you explain what you mean by "both set up not budded up against one"? let's say my bookshelf has one tweeter on top and a mid on the bottom, so I should put them in horizontal way in a MTTM mode?
Outstanding video! Out of the dozens of speakers I own and have owned the best measuring and performing setup I’ve ever used in my specific room is 3 identical Mirage HDT-F’s. They’re older but were made in Canada back when Andrew Welker and Ian Paisley were still doing amazing things and utilized the Canadian NRC anechoic chamber to engineer a number of their speakers. 20 years ago they were $4500 for all 3 and they each use two 6.5” woofers, two 3” titanium deposit midranges and one 1” pure titanium tweeter. For a large bookshelf speaker they’re better built than a good portion of the stuff out there now and better than anything at any big box retail store, I believe they each weigh about 50lbs, they use 1” MDF and definitely pass the knock test. With no room correction or equalization they have a flat on axis response from 200hz-20KHz and off axis is very similar in performance. I set up all 3 vertically and I’ve never been able to match their performance. I even went as far as trying 3 Revel Performa F50’s which are phenomenal speakers and I picked up two pairs of them for $500, however after all the effort of setting up a tower that weighs 100+lbs, the performance was the same.
Damn.... Every time I think I've gotten things figured out I find more great information !!! This process has been so over whelming I don't know if I'll ever be able to decide what to purchase. Great video, please keep doing what you do.
Thank you Erin, this is great to seeing someone who is using scientific data to help better understand and select good speakers! In addition your presentation style is very humble and honest, which is very unusual in this hobby where most reviewers think they know the truth and are preaching. For those of us who like to listen to multichannel music the 3 front speakers need to be identical! That will work best both for music and movies!
This is why I always use a tower as center (when I am not going for phantomcenter which works very well in my room). I do not think my screen is acoustically transparent (don't know), but I have built rack and have my center tower upside down on it, so the tweeter and midrange is under the screen. Left and right tower is upside down on each their sub (same height as center). My last tower is rear surround (centered single rear surround), upside down on my third sub. I do play all towers full range, combined with subs, and I feel this works very well, giving many sources of bass, both at floorlevel and about middle height of the room. Really even full sound with only one slight dip at about 90 hz (room mode I can not kill🤪). Thanks for an informative video. Will send it to my mates so they can see I am not nuts when I tell them that normal centers are not optimal🤪
Thank you so so much for this such a quality video. Takes so much effort do such an educational video. A rare gem in an era of "Influencer' videos with no data and ten minutes of pointless talking.
That is what exactly I did too. I really would have liked to go with a Revel c426 a little too big and costly. I used the revel bookshelf for the centre to go with the left and right towers.
Hi Erin, I recently watched some of your videos and you're one of the few on youtube who is really on point on loudspeakers and acoustics. Unfortunately the internet is full of (biased) misinformation and voodoo so your channel is a breath of fresh air so to speak. You get a big thumbs up from me, so keep those videos coming! I've designed and build my fair share of loudspeakers in the last 35 years, ranging from hifi and studio monitors to PA / MI loudspeakers.
This is possibly the most comprehensive and honest video on centers I've seen. You are so right, they are all a compromise! (Aside from the sonically transparent screen/projector route, which very few people can accommodate.) The idea that centers in a speaker range match timbre with the fronts is also a myth in my experience. I had a poorly matched center that sounded gruff, mid-heavy, and resonant compared to the fronts - all from the same line of speakers! After moving to a home with a fireplace, I didn't have room for a large center anymore and wasn't happy with the phantom route. Replaced it with a Polk ES35 which actually matches timbre better... but the Polk has its limitations and compromises too, akin to the XT35 you covered. With the space limitations of ever-larger screens, we are all being forced to compromise. And just getting a large center that's matched with fronts is no guarantee for success either.
I started out with a KEF HTIB set, dialogue was terrible. I then tried multiple other centers from Polk, Klipsch and finally landed on SVS Prime center and was FINALLY able to hear clearly. It made me upgrade to their Ultra Center and it was even better for overall linearity (from my uMik readings at least). This video would have saved me lots of cash and time. Awesome job.
You could also try without a center and maybe be surprised how well it can sound with the front speaker set up correctly with the same distance between them and to your listening position.
This is by far the best video on center channel speakers on youtube , and it’s not bull but real facts and I wish I knew about the different types of speakers a year ago when I was looking for the center channel for my system. I went with the Polk ES35 and I added a small subwoofer and personal it was the only one I was ok with mostly because of the clear dialogue and the added subwoofer I used was because of Erin’s suggested that it would help. I have to say that this is your best video yet for me personally and I appreciate your explanation of this topic that I am sure that many of us have been waiting for. Thanks Erin.
Nice work! I've fallen kind of meh on center channel speakers of late. One of the best things I did in my space now is having moved the front LCR in my theater behind an AT screen (using the Focal 1000 in-walls) and so have identical "tower" style in-walls and all in the same vertical orientation. Much better than a horizontal center under a large/tall screen. In my living room, I'm 100% happy with it being a 2.2 setup and a phantom center. Phantom works excellently in there.
@P T Yeah, room correction can clean that up. They also recommend EQ'ing your speakers all the way to 20k when behind an AT screen, which I do in my Anthem.
I keep using that video for people, who do not know or understand enough about how center channels work, or why most of the MTM designs are flawed for Home Theater, at least for side seats. However, as Audioholics once mentioned, most home entertainment rooms/multipurpose rooms will have one couch/seating area and TV/Screen positioned in such a way, that the angle will most probably be less than 40 degrees for side seats. Which makes many MTM center designs still usable in those conditions. P.S. Thanks for the video as always, this is awesome :)
Wooow. What a great video. Good job on dropping the knowledge. Very tehnical and informative. I wish more companies would make a 3 way design because it’s the obvious choice. And they could easily manage it with a 7-8” tall cabinet , 3-4” mid and 6,5” woofers and front ported so you can place it even in a cabinet. Depth and width can be different sizes. Me for one , have made my 9 channel purchase based on the center channel design. Thanks again.
This video has taught me so much about center speakers, has probably saved me from a misinformed purchase of a not so good center. Thanks so much! Would love to see you review the Polk R700 towers & Polk L400 center
I found the easiest way to deal with the Left Mid Right speakers is use very large speakers of the same make and same specs for all 3 of them. So I have large 15" woofers, 10" Mid Woofers, 5" Midranges and 1" Soft dome tweeters on all 3 speakers. They can handle massive power and sound great. For the surrounds and Surround Backs I use Polk Monitors (All the same) with 3 way design using 10" woofers. For the subs, I have a separate amp power two 15" 1,000 watt RMS Capable subs. Works for my 7.2 system with a 150" 4K projection Screen.
I have LS50s for my LCR driven with 3 CH amp specifically so I'd avoid the issues of centers sounding different. I fully admit I didn't put nearly as much thought into it as you did, was more of a gut feeling that it would be best if they were all the same. Having watched your video, I now feel like I made the right choice, especially with the LS50 being a single co-axial speaker
How big is your room, and what crossovers do you use? Reason I ask is I was thinking of trying to run 3 LS50 Meta’s as my LCRs, but I’ve heard concerns of them not being loud enough, and particularly having issues at anything around 100hz and below at typical home theater volumes (75db and up). Curious what your thoughts are on this - if this isn’t a real concern, these sound like an AMAZING option. The LS50 Meta is only around 11 inches tall, so it would be easy to fit in the same spot as a center for me, it wouldn’t have the trade offs of the typical MTM design, and it would be an exact match to the L and R!
I think KEF really does make some of the best center channels, particularly in their old IQ series or their current R or their Reference series. the ideal is to have the same driver composition as your towers, but with more width. While the iQ60 aren't properly identical to the iQ90, they are at least a proper 3-way configuration utilizing the beloved Uni-Q driver with it's delightfully wide dispersion. the old Reference 204/2c are my favorite overkill center channel to point to because it's massive and intended to directly match the performance of the Reference 205/2. beautiful center channel that actually ends up being larger than the towers they're meant to complement.
I have r300s with matching center channel and small 1980 vintage uni Q floorstanders for surrounds and SACD or Blue Ray surround music is amazing! I kept reading how much better 2-channel was with a dac and class AB amp vs. any AVR. Well, I bought a new 2 channel rig with wharedales, AS220, turntable with ortaphon black. I was mildly happy with it but still felt nothing was better than DSD through my old AVR through the Kefs. Then I tried moving the tube dac and streamer to the KEFs and was floored with the improvement in sound quality and soundstage. Kef scale like a mofo and are super hifi compared to Wharefedale lintons everyone is so enamored with these days. I still like the Lintons but am a little bored after only a few months where as the KEFs continue to impress with shock and awe even 7 years into them simply by adding tubes into the mix.
@@davidwald2938 Absolutely. KEF speakers are one of the few brands I've found that really can scale with better amplifiers and DACs. On top of that, even their older stuff sounds great. Honestly, even if I had an unlimited budget, I'm not sure I'd drop it on their latest consumer products. I'd probably just get a full set of Reference 205/2 instead. But that's also kinda my fault for having this predisposition to loathe when manufacturers try to lie about the number of active drivers on their towers by using passive radiators that mimic the powered woofers. I also just prefer how they tuned the treble in their older stuff to be slightly depressed compared to their newer stuff. I've heard their Q750, the Q350, Q150, R3, LS50 Meta, LS60 and my own iQ90 and I think the LS60 are the closest to my preference, which is the iQ90. Funny how you have to spend $7k for a set of towers to sound like a set that's almost a decade and a half old. I'll give them credit, though: if you have a modern minimalist house and you want an eminently attractive set of towers for a listening room then the LS60 are certainly about as good as you can get, but that's placing aesthetics pretty high on your list of considerations for speakers. They certainly don't sound bad, and even compared to some other towers from Sonus Faber and Revel they hold up extremely well at that price point, but they sound about the same as my iQ90 on an Onkyo receiver from 2015. And the problem that the LS60 has is that they've decoupled the speaker from the source chain so you can no longer experience how it would scale with improvements in amps and DACs. Personally, I'd recommend trying to find either a set of Q11, iQ9, or iQ90 on the secondary market and then throwing all of the extra money you saved into an epic integrated amplifier or a set of monoblocks with a DAC or sound processor. Their newest Uni-Q drivers have made some improvements with their tangerine wedge diffusers, but they're pretty marginal overall and you'd get better results by just improving how you feed them.
+1 here on the UNI-Q drivers for center channel performance. Have an old set of IQ's in my theater room and to me I struggle to replace them with anything newer as the soundstage and imaging could not be better. The UNIQ drivers are true audio engineering marvels and under appreciated.
Glad I came across this video. I actually just purchased the SVS prime center with the pinnacle towers as an upgrade. My old center channel is a 2 way and I always thought that dialog clarity and such was definitely different depending on seating position. It just sounded kind of muffled at certain angles and i couldnt put my finger on why. Now I'm looking forward even more to the upgrade! Theyll be here Thursday. Cant wait.
Great video! I really appreciate the visual demonstrations with the waves and F/R shifts. I used to think the sound-field would just be more narrow, instead of it being so chopped up. Would have been interesting to see the difference with a two-way arranged in a horizontal configuration. I have build a DIY-cabinet using the same drivers, crossovers, internal volume and port as my main left and right speakers. But because of the space limitations between the floor and screen, I could only fit the woofer and tweeter horn side by side. I experience quite a difference in the tonality between the center and L-R speaker. It’s probably a combination of the orientation and placement so close to the floor. I guess active processing could help out a bit.
Roger, if you can I would at least angle the center speaker up towards your ears. Get it so the tweeter is aimed at you ears when your sitting down to watch it. It would be more money, but when you can it seems like you need a new tv / media stand. If the TV is on the stand, consider a wall mount for the TV, that way you can have your center speaker horizontal instead of vertical. Unless you have a transparent audio screen and a projector. These are just general guidance tips. You may even know this. Just trying to help you out as all. Getting the center speaker higher and aimed right should make a huge difference for you. Good luck.
Very informative stuff, Erin. I switched last year to 3 identical speakers for LCR (3 x Arendal 1723 Monitor S) and am so much happier with the results compared with my previous setup of towers and matching MTM centre channel. I’m now subscribed - keep up the good work. :-)
You made a lot of good points. That is why I build my own speakers. You can never have a good center channel unless it is behind the screen. Good luck with that. When I design a center channel speaker, I make sure the crossover is in the right spot to have full despersion from each driver. The biggest problem is placement. No way around it. You will have reflection from the screen and everything else around the speaker. Home theatre is a huge problem for speakers. There really isn't a good setup. All you can do is minimize the problems. Obviously the room is a huge problem as well. I have been a sound engineer, drummer and audiophile for 35 years. If your room is shit, your sound will be shit. You can have the best speakers in the world. They will sound horrible if your room is trash. Work on the room. Even junk speakers will sound better. Well, I said good luck with putting the speaker behind the screen. Some people have that option. Most don't.
I kept wondering why my surround system just wasn't giving me the sound I expected with music as with tv/movies? I got rid of the center channel, and now it's what I always thought it should sound like.
Excellent video. I’m glad I ended up using a bookshelf Elac UB-5 as my center. Not because I know what I’m doing but a pair of bookshelf speakers was cheaper than the matching center when I bought. Works great.
This video confirms what I've always suspected. A few years ago I designed and built a small line array system. I did a lot of research on the physics behind how the drivers sonically couple and act as a single source. I could tell most MTM designs were comb filter disasters just by looking at them.
If there is no room for identical triplets at the front, a coaxial is always the right move for a center channel, like the Kef for example. Best off-axis (with a good crossover ofc.) with almost identical vertical and horizontal sound dispersion for most coherent center for many seats.
Biggest problem I had when setting up my system was reflections, and speaker placement. After installing a bunch of foam dampening on the walls and ceiling, and multiple hours of moving speakers around, forward, back, side to side and at different heights, it was like a miracle how the knolls went away.
Here from HTE! Great video with excellent info! I love hearing the technical info rather than just opinions. New subscriber here! Keep up the great work!
That is an awesome microphone test setup you used there to make those 360 degree sound plot graphs! I wish I had something just like that at my house or in my workshop, because if I did I would use it on every speaker I test, design, or improve, but I suppose that robotic test setup isn't very cheap, to say the least! Great video man, this was the first video of yours I've ever seen, but I subscribed for more.
thanks for the info. this is helping me design a rack-mounted speaker baffle whose drivers will be mounted horizontally. trying to optimize for the least amount of comb filtering. The current configuration is two extended range drivers on both sides of a 7" woofer. the extended range drivers are what im worried about - im considering doing a toe-out for a better soundstage, and maybe that'd help with interference. this is by no means hi-fi audio but i'd like to get it sounding alright.
Man you nailed it. I hope some day you get the subscribers you deserve considering how good your work is. Your examples are a photograph of my dilemma , I have the svs prime center and bookshelves as frontstage and I was considering to replace them with 3 arendal 1961 bookshelves .Good idea or not? :P
I’m glad I’m not crazy. I tried all the popular centers and have yet to be happy. Last ditch effort I wired a pair of 8ohm bookshelves together to give the amp a 4ohm load and placed them about 2’ apart from each other, and while everyone says it shouldn’t work, it sounds 100x better than a single mtm or 3 way center. None of the alleged comb filtering, etc etc. the only thing I haven’t tried yet that I want to is a single q150 sideways.
Do you have measurements to show this non alleged cone filtering. 🤔 he showed what happens when you have drivers playing the same frequency at distances apart...
The comb filtering exists. You just don't see it as clearly because you're looking at in-room response which is only a single line. You need multiple measurements from the different seats and to compare them. Hope that helps.
Went down to a single b1+ as a center and no complaints at all. Beats any dedicated center I’ve tried and just so happens to fit perfectly below my tv, level with my towers.
Outstanding presentation, and explains so much. Always wondered 'what the hell is wrong with the center channel' and kept getting bigger and bigger speakers.
I’ve been waiting for a video like this for EVER. This is the kind of content that should be coming out from Audioholics, but it’s never materialized! And I mean that with great respect towards you Erin. You’ve put in a lot of work and time into this video and others. I own/use an Klipsch RP-504c (2.5 way) behind an AT screen. Sitting 10ft away. Your data and presentation help me hugely in understanding how my speaker may be radiating laterally…since Klipsch is a 💩 and won’t release their speaker’s data.
My set-up is contained within a square, 12 X 8 room and I'm the only listener and I'm always in the sweet spot, so no issues with Soundwaves being off-axis. That being said I'm quite happy with my Klipsch Synergy Black Label C-200 Center Channel Speaker. The vocals in films are reproduced with great clarity, but the vocals also have very clean low-end through this center speaker. No regrets at all.
Thanks for this, Erin. This was a superb analysis and extremely informative. As it turns out, I myself use the Micca center speaker and was experiencing the same issues of dead zones off angle in the front soundfield. But the solution turned out to be surprisingly simple. I simply connected TWO of the Micca center speakers in serial to each other and placed them a few feet apart. And no, despite what purists would have you believe, I didn't have to change the resistance setting in my Denon 3600H AVR nor is my AVR in danger of blowing out. Remember, modern AVRs have automatic shutoff safety mechanisms if they can't handle anything. I probably wouldn't recommend this with an older AVR but I have absolutely no problem whatsoever on a modern one.
@@demonreturns4336 That's correct, Demon. They are connected in serial to each other and the Center speaker output on my Denon 3600H 9.2 A/V receiver. They are currently placed 32 inches apart from each other which works for my living room. I find this provides enough space between them that the sound waves aren't colliding with each other and distorting as well as eliminating the off-angle dead zones. Please note that for this to work, your front left and right speakers also have to placed at the far left and right of the room where they are actually supposed to be so that there are no sound wave collisions there either. The major problem I find with most home theater setups is users place the left and right speakers right beside the TV itself which is far too close. At that distance, they act no different than center channel speakers themselves. At the very least, place them both just outside the total seating area I.e. the left and right side of your couch. Here's the easiest way to figure this out. Place your front left and front right speakers all the way to the furthest left and right corners of your front wall. Now place two serially connected center speakers in equidistance from the front left and front right speakers and each other in the middle of the front wall. Give it a listen in all seating positions available in your room and then move the speakers around to your liking until there are no dead zones you can discern from any seat.
Erin, this was excellent. If there's any way you could measure Arendal's 1961 Center, please do. Also, what would be the crossover point/driver distance relationship we should be looking for that would indicate less potential error?
Am I imagining things, or does the Kef's on- and off-axis response sound more uniform, even though the Arendal's measure better? What could be causing this phenomenon?
Awesome video Erin. Very well done. A lot of good information here. It was nice to see a bookshelf being tested as well. I was impressed with the SVS Prime center speaker doing so well. It is a speaker I am considering for a center replacement. The other one I am looking at is the HC-1 MK2 Horn Center Channel from HSU Research. I would love you to review this speaker. I would like to see it's off axis response along with a full review. It's a speaker that has been out for awhile but doesn't have current reviews. There are links to magazine reviews when it was released. I am sure you would want to read them after you did your own testing. Or maybe you can get a review direct from HSU Research. If so please test their bookshelf HB-1 MK2 Horn Bookshelf Speaker. Maybe there is a viewer / Pateron that has one who will let you borrow one for testing. Here's hoping. Thanks for all you great work. 😀. Keep it up.
Thanks. I would recommend you reach out to HSU and ask if they'd be willing to send me some for review. I tried in the past with a subwoofer request but didn't get a reply.
Audio Advice affiliate link: www.audioadvice.com/?referral=erins-audio-corner Amazon affiliate link: amzn.to/3guFPYB SVS: bit.ly/3slB1u9 The above links may earn me a small commission at no additional cost to you.
Erin, I think your Amazon affiliate link is not working/ incorrect. It just brings me to the main Amazon home page in the web browser. I even signed in to my account and tried again for the hell of it and same thing, just the home page.
The KEF Model 7 and Model 11 are stereo pair speakers with built in rear and center speakers with individual wiring for each. One speaker has a negative and the other speaker has a positive wire input for each center channel midrange and the coaxial tweeter in it. Sounds weird doesn't it? But it works really well! Do a test tone and you'll swear the sound is coming from the screen even though it's coming from each midrange and tweeter on each speaker on both sides of the screen. I love my model 7's!
The elephant in the room is dedicated center channel speakers themselves, with their varied form factors. Three identical LCRs and don't look back, imo. There's so many adequately performing two-ways that it truly makes little sense to pursue dedicated, horizontal, form factors. Don't get me wrong, Erin this is solid work and likely quite helpful and educational to many. My primary rig is a big system that functions as audio lab experiments, projects, etc. My wife is quite understanding and as empty nest'ers I've gone deep on several in room experiments... long term and short term. Even with a direct view 85" display, my big 3-way LCRs work great... even with the center operating horizontally. Big challenge being diffracted/reflected energy of the 85" display... of which I discovered a simple, effective workaround. Also, it's worth noting side-by-side mids can actually be beneficial. There's a handful of examples out there, one that comes to mind was borne from the SEOS experiments... whereby to maintain tight center-to-center distances from HF driver to Mid (optimal vertical coverage), a pair of smaller diameter Mids flanking each other achieves the tight c-t-c, and a by product is great pattern control horizontally ... BELOW the range of the SEOS.
Great video! I designed and built my center channel speaker with an MTM horizontal driver placement, but with a minimum mid-mid separation of about six inches (the 5 1/4 inch speaker edges are about an inch separated) and the tweeter is tucked in just above. This greatly improves off-axis mid-range response while still giving me plenty of SPL for movies. I consider this a “true MTM” configuration compared to the current fad in commercial center channel speakers. Glad I found your channel!
Actually not "true MTM", but just a variation on MTM, because the MTM design and the narrow gap between mid's is intentional to suppress vertical dispersion and works great for any speakers not laying on their side. I built the Audax HT system by Joe D'Appolito and the center channel is a three-way WTMW design so that horizontal dispersion isn't reduced. Essentially your design with the addition of a 3-way crossover and a dedicated midrange speaker (although my 6 1/2" woofers are a good 6-7" apart with the mid and tweeter arranged vertically between them). With only an inch between your mids I don't see how cancellation is not taking place...
I stopped using my KEF Q600 center speaker and went two channel in front as my phantom center is solid. Good for me in the center seat. I would buy another Q900 for the center if I had the room.
I've had my paradigm cc190 for well over a decade now, not really knowing much about speakers at the time of purchase, and I am still happy with it! Clear, crisp vocals, good lows and mids. Perfect for my needs. Sometimes less is more
I'm still looking at options for my setup. Kinda sticking to a budget including AVR of about $1000 - $1800. If possible I am attending to hit the THX min/max recommendations. As for AVR I've been eyeing the Pioneer VSX 835 or 935. For speakers I've been looking at the Klipsch Black Reference Theater 5.1 Pack/bundle. Which all together puts me at about $800. My setup is going to be in my bedroom which is 10' x 12', bed/sitting space at one end of room, TV/Console at the other. Distance between me and the TV should be about 10.5 Ft. I also live in an apartment complex, so I've got neighbors below and beside me. Which is one reason I'm kinda working with a budget, no point in blowing the bank on high end speakers at the moment if I can't run them at full tilt. Overall I'm just trying to achieve a good basic 5.1 setup, or possibly even a 5.1.4. I've looked at some of the Soundbars, but I still prefer a more traditional Individual speaker setup so I can adjust things as needed to achieve the sound space that works for me.
Interesting analysis. I understand this is zoomed-in on the center speaker, but I'd be more interested in the HT impact of It. If you add 2 fronts (and surrounds) that can again completely alter the sound bubble. It depends on your situation, but this is why I never understand why people mix & match speakers in a HT setup. If It's a proper audio company they've spend years and years of audio science to optimise the bubble using their specially tuned HT product line. And the center is an integral part of that setup. That's not "just the center speaker". Who would listen to It in that way? You can add the SVS Prime to your setup and It will sound completely horrible mixed with other fronts. As you can see in this thread even, people are now buying different centers because of this video and think that was the best decision, lol. The advise I would give is: 1. Try to stick to the same brand, ideally the same product range. If you're expanding from 2.1 to 5.1 and you can't find those anymore, I'd even go as far as to suggest to sell what you have and replace the whole system. It will save you loads of hassle to get stuff right. 2. Invest in an AV Receiver with proper DSP (with mic measuring your listening positions) to fix these things. I think most people still aren't realising how much impact his has. I'd even go as far that this probably has the biggest impact on your sound results, even your speakers. With DSP I can make sound $200 speakers sound better than a $2000 speaker without DSP, ever will in your situation, factoring in the lack of knowledge, challenging acoustics, limiting positioning in your room and laziness of most people (me included) to spend the time and money to get everything right without DSP. They've been getting so good. Audyssey, Dirac etc
Doesn't the front left and right speakers mitigate a lot of the problems you mentioned? After all, center channels are not intended to be stand-alone. They intended to be part of an array of speakers.
Our HT (13Wx21.5Dx10H) is relatively narrow so the front seats are around 15 degrees and the back row is around 10-12 degrees. My MTM Polk is great for application. Great info, I lucked out. Could use advice regarding ATMOS ceiling speakers.
Well, this explains everything! I tore out the 5.2 system and installed a fresh 2 channel. Using the Cambridge CXN streamer/DAC/preamp feeding the XTZ Edge Z2-400 amp with 10ga OFC cable to the KLH Model 5's. I did keep the two SVS SB3000 subs, and they blend in seamlessly with the Model 5's. The soundstage is HUGE, the sound is three dimensional now, I have snapped my head around more than a few times looking for what made that noise to my L or R or directly behind me. The sound is just incredible in this system, and the KLH speakers are simply incredible. I am so happy to be rid of that God awful HT setup. Thank you for the work you do Erin, it is much appreciated.
I have sent this video to a few clients Erin. First time I have ever listened to a useful comparison recording. Pink noise on and off axis is a brilliant choice. Too bad that you didn't have a wideband line array. I'll put one together and measure it. Depending on the diameter of the wideband you could have a reasonably stable soundfield in the voice range. Mark
One of your best videos yet! Very informative! I really liked you adding the 0deg vs. 25deg frequency response graphs near the end. Made it easier to understand. Thanks!
Center channel speakers can be used in other contexts, to great effect. If you wish to fill a room with full-range sound at low to mid volumes while still being able to converse in normal voice, try putting a pair of center channel speakers high up in the far corners of the widest wall. The sound, especially with classical or jazz, will have a “substance yet spacious” quality to it. Perfect for, say, a dining room. For this purpose, those speakers need to be very wide range… with the bass going down to 50hz or below.
Great analysis, but unfortunately the ones that measure well are really tall and will be difficult to fit. Aside from the off axis issue, how much of a compromise is it get 3 or 4" mid range drivers instead of 5"+. I'll be using a quality subwoofer in my system too.
As a new owner of a complete emotiva t2+, c2+ home theater setup, thanka for deflating my excitement. Spent so much time doing research and went for these over anything like deftech, klipsch, jamo, etc... now im always going to wonder if i made a good decision :/
@@shaolin95 if its just my wife and i, we're fine, the kids can deal with it. If we have company over then i might let them take the sweet spot for the first movie or two :) its not the end of the world and they still sound fantastic from the little i listened before unplgguing them for remodel.
I have the C2+. Sit about 6’-8’ away and it is just me and one other person shoulder to shoulder. Before that I had a Klipsch 504c, which sounded awful, muddy, ringing and boxy. I upgraded the crossover (and internal batting) with one from GR Research and it sounded much better, but still lacking in the full range especially in the vocal range. My C2+ absolutely stomped the 504c in clarity and I think it’s because of its 3 way design, having woofer mid and tweeter. Sibilant and high pitched (female) dialogue that would come off as peaky, distorted and harsh with the 504c became smooth and clear with the C2+. I just think it’s a better designed box, crossover, etc and I really prefer the sound of ribbon tweeters. This video was great, but it’s basically all about off axis listening. In an ideal world, I’d have a true home theater and run an acoustically transparent screen, then I would just have 3- T2+ speakers for my front sound stage.
Thanks for the video. As someone who has owned dozens of sets of speakers, I can safely say that I've never liked a sound that comes from that horizontal design often with the d'appolito style of speaker. I've complained for years that center channels suck as they never come under the same review scrutiny that the bookshelf or floor standers do. Who ever properly auditions or reviews a center channel? Apart from in the context of a surround system in a store, for maybe a minute of two - nobody does. It becomes the after thought of a full surround kit and it's the most crucial speaker! Also, hifi salespeople will try to say 'just buy the most expensive or biggest speaker you can, because it's important' - this doesn't fix the issue. I've had some shocking sounding center channels. They look like works of art too... The best center channels I've had are bookshelf speakers, even laying off axis they are stacks better than the alternative. If people have a bookshelf setup and want to expand to surround with matching center channel, I say they should consider another identical pair and keep one spare. Often the center channel is overpriced in the range and it's much better value to get a second set of bookshelves instead. Subbed 👍
I have shared this a couple of times. Disappointed that it shows up with the title "Center Channel Speaker Buying Guide" instead of "Why Most Center Channel Speakers Suck." The buying guide title is not nearly as compelling. "Buying Guides" usually suck, but this is the best demonstration and analysis of common center channel flaws that I have seen.
Excellent, excellent video. I think the most important subject you broached is that each person needs to assess the specific needs for their individual room. As you clearly note linearity is equally as important as dispersion for a center speaker. I often wonder why (and perhaps you could address this in a future video?) people don't just grab another TM bookshelf and turn it on its side and use it as a center if they are space/height limited? it doesn't work in all instances but the work you and others have done provides a wealth of knowledge as what will and won't work. a KEF Q350 would make a fantastic center on its side but similarly traditional speakers like an Elac DBR62 appears to have sufficient vertical dispersion (approx. ±25 degrees) to be used on its side and cover that horizontally. of course the big issue is trying to get either of those as a single speaker!
the issue i had for a long time is i felt it impossible to mach a centre speaker to my mane speakers. My speakers (electrovoice interface Ds) were manufactured in the 70s long before the centre channel ever existed. I finally took the plunge on a used Mcintosh cs360 without ever listening to it first. I took a chance on the mcintosh being that i live hours from the closest stereo shop.Now i need a 5 channel home theatre amp to match up with my bryston 4bsst .Thinking emotiva perhaps
This was excellent, it finally explained in easy to understand terms why I sometimes have family and friends ask "is there a problem with the surround sound" when they are sitting off axis. Good excuse foe new speakers.... LOL
Erin, this is a home run my friend. So well illustrated and explained. Thank you for all of the disclaimers, but don't let the haters get you down. This was FANTASTIC!
Thank you so much for the kind words!
Yep, sussinct!
@@ErinsAudioCorner Don’t recognize the haters in the video, it gives negative vibes, believe in yourself and your content
This was really fantastic, thank you for putting the effort in. I'm not in the market for more gear at the moment, but I want you to know that I took the time to email SVS and thank them for participating in this video by sending a review speaker and that their openness and support for independent reviewers matters a lot when it comes time for me to upgrade.
First, thank you for the support! Second, cool of you to email SVS. I'm sure they'll appreciate that.
now if they can just slide an SVS Ultra Center on over there too!
@@TheBassallyear100 oh man, if only those Ultra towers were available in a more exciting finish, like cherry/oak/walnut. Black Ash is just the most boring speaker look ever, it is like a silver over black German car. No matter the performance, I look at it and think 'for that much money it should have more presence'.
I have them in piano black and they look amazing idk who wouldn't spend the extra for the piano black. To me they actually look better then they perform. I heard some other cheaper ones that sounded better for a little less money but dear God the piano black was just too good looking to pass and I figured i could always upgrade the internals.
@@brandonbrodbeck6688 it's a shame they don't make the ultra's in gloss white too. i love the sub and elevations in white.
This is probably the best video I have watch. Everyone just talks about timber match speakers and the center speaker being the most important but no one done what you did. Much kudos to you sir. 👏
So nice of you to say. Thank you very much.
Erin, this was fabulous data you've shared. Everyone is pretty much told " match the centers with your mains for best linearity " which I found personally is not the case. I'm not surprised though to see how even and wider the sound dispersion is with the KEF Q650C / the methodology behind this design makes it a much better choice. Thanks again for all the work you do brother!
Good video! I used to have my Polk Center Channel speaker below my TV. I could barely hear it unless I turned it up. I moved it about 8-10 inches above my TV (85"), slightly tilted toward my main seating area and it sounds perfect!
Thank you Erin. I was about to purchase a RP-504C II and then saw your reviews and tests. I bought a Monolith THX-365C instead. I am very happy with the 365C. Now I can hear dialogs clearly.
Erin;
Nice video and great analysis. Oddly, I posted a response in the comments last night but I don’t see it so here it goes again:
You forgot about the worse horizontal offending topology, the infamous TWWWT design. Absolutely dreadful listening experience for anyone that isn’t directly on center.
Pink noise aberrations are much easier to hear than actual program material and worth noting.
It’s hard to believe we covered this topic over 15 years ago but here is our original article on audioholics.
But then I revisited realizing most people don’t sit more than 20 deg off axis and if they do, it’s usually by a side wall and not a good listening or viewing seat anyway.
It’s important to note that AT screens are NOT without their issues, especially vinyl ones. I measured significant on/off axis comb filtering on a very expensive screen I’m currently using from Screen Innovations. To overcome some of these issues, you must build the screen OFF the wall to get it away from the speakers and also use heavy absorption material between the speakers. I plan on doing a YT video on this, hopefully soon.
IF you ever want to collaborate and come on our channel to discuss these topics, I’m game.
Here are the links for what Gene is talking about:
www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs
www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/center-channel-speaker
@@ErinsAudioCorner im just thankful for the videos but would love to see the off axis response and handling of monitor audio c350. I kniw thats asking a bit much but im guessing it should similiar to the svs prime with similiar design maybe even better as i would assume monitor audio make a better speaker than svs....
A common sense uneducated person already knows they don't sit much off axis and wouldn't have to revisit nonsense they wrote 15 years ago.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt calm down, fella. Plenty of people have home theaters where others sit further than 15 degrees off axis. That’s who this was for. Common sense dictates no one sitting on-axis is 15 degrees off axis. It’s in the nomenclature.
Is wwtww a decent center channel topography design?
Finally, measurement confirmation that MTM speakers should not be laid down on their sides (as almost all center channel speakers are). I've argued this point until I was blue in the face for almost 30 years.
Ok Mark, that’s quite enough! 🥴
You are correct sir! Most center channel designs are for convenience and ease of placement right under screen. Plus, most seem to be 2-way crossovers. Bad all the way around for best sound. Based on recent research, I’m considering a 3-way vertical alignment to test the difference for myself. I sometimes have trouble hearing dialogue in my HT rig. That’s what started my research. Great topic Erin! 👍🏼😎
I too have been known to argue that center can be used as L/R if you rotate the tweeter. Sometimes to pleasant results. And it’s a good way to save some cash sometimes cause centers go on sale for great deals pretty often.
@alltechstuffs: I'm using a pair of Elac center channels as my main L/R in my theater setup. Luv 'em!
...stood on edge, i.e vertically
Erin, you have a robot that measures sound output in 3D...don't act like making slides is the part that makes you a nerd. Absolutely loved this video man! Obviously I am a massive nerd.
That got me. I actually LOL'd. 😂
Ha....ahahahaha
OMG - I am so glad that I happened on this video! I have been frustrated for a long time with the poor sound out of my setup and it turned out that my 2-way MTM center channel was a major part of the problem. (The other was that apparently I had a power surge or something that confused my receiver. I did a factory reset and that fixed a lot.) I fund a deal on a prior year Klipsch center channel and once installed the difference was night and day. Thank you so much!
Great content. Over 15 years ago I invested in Definitive Technology ( Sandy Gross era ) picked up BP7001, BP7002 & BP7006 Tower Speakers along with 3x CLR 2002 Centers and Studio Monitors 450 pair & 350 pair. Yes I spent a grip but they are still kicking ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Excellent video!
Questions: Would placing an MTM center in a vertical position solve the issue of problematic horizontal dispersion? How does a large tweeter waveguide affect the MTM dispersion?
One thing I would add is that some people might want to consider using a center channel and using upmixing for stereo content due to the 2khz interaural crosstalk cancellation that occurs when using only two speakers. A center channel fixes that issue. Dr. Toole talks about this in his book.
Good to hear the binaural demo with the Sonic Presence mics. It helps to get an idea of the differences your measurements show.
An MTM center placed upright will have much better horizontal dispersion, but now the vertical is narrow, because the drivers are still far apart in the plane, it’s not the same as a bookshelf/tower, so another reason to go true LCR for an AT projection.
@@homeboi808 My thought is you're much more likely to be within the optimal vertical window if placed that way. Unless you're expecting some people to stand or sit, or if you have multiple rows of seating, it seems like vertical is more advantageous than having it horizontal.
@@joentell true, but you still have the vertical reflections from the ceiling/floor being narrow/point, so to some degree the tonality/soundstage won’t be affected.
@@homeboi808 I'm curious to know why so many people choice a compromised multi seat option over a one hot seat design ? It's not like our family and friends are going to say " you have a dip at 50htz, I'm not impressed " or some crap like that... They will be amazed anyways, or is this hobby multifaceted ? Also curious to know why 99% of people use different speakers everywhere in the first place? Worst thing you can do, yet all but a few do it... Curiouser and curiouser...
yea, man! Most MTM designes are much better vertically oriented.
Finally !!! Thank you for a tech tutorial about center channel speakers. With old ears & damaged hearing I need all the help on dialogue that I can get from my cc. After a year of research, I narrowed the replacement for my Elac Debut 5.2 cc down to the Kef R2c, the SVS Ultra cc, and the Elac Uni-Fi Ref cc. I ended up with the SVS Ultra and it helped dialogue by a bit on-axis but the improvement off-axis was significant.
I use the SVS ULTRA Center Channel speaker in my main HT and it's Fantastic just like this Channel!!! Amazing Work, Thank you!
Erin, this is easily one of your best videos to date. Fantastic presentation!
Wow, thank you!
Found this video about 8 months ago. It lead me to learning that a speaker brand called "Revel" even existed. I found a great deal on C208... I have never in my entire life heard such clear dialog as I do now. It is a 3-way speaker. Just wanted to say THANK YOU!
You mentioned Kef q650c, I am happy. My home theater consists of Kef speakers. And I love that coaxial design.
I rarely comment this, if ever. But this is easily one of the best videos on all of RUclips. Reminds me of what RUclips videos used to be all about.
Just use the same front speaker as center , so much better.
What I did was use 2 , 3 way centers and both set up not budded up against one other to prevent cancellations. Also important to note , they are both driven by dedicated amps (so not put in series or anything)
Works really well to get the a insane wide horizontal dispersion.
Could you explain what you mean by "both set up not budded up against one"?
let's say my bookshelf has one tweeter on top and a mid on the bottom, so I should put them in horizontal way in a MTTM mode?
Just do a phantom center
I upgraded all my speakers to the Klipsch RP line with the RP-504C. It seems to be a three-way speaker with crossovers at 500/1500. It sounds great!
Outstanding video! Out of the dozens of speakers I own and have owned the best measuring and performing setup I’ve ever used in my specific room is 3 identical Mirage HDT-F’s. They’re older but were made in Canada back when Andrew Welker and Ian Paisley were still doing amazing things and utilized the Canadian NRC anechoic chamber to engineer a number of their speakers. 20 years ago they were $4500 for all 3 and they each use two 6.5” woofers, two 3” titanium deposit midranges and one 1” pure titanium tweeter. For a large bookshelf speaker they’re better built than a good portion of the stuff out there now and better than anything at any big box retail store, I believe they each weigh about 50lbs, they use 1” MDF and definitely pass the knock test. With no room correction or equalization they have a flat on axis response from 200hz-20KHz and off axis is very similar in performance. I set up all 3 vertically and I’ve never been able to match their performance. I even went as far as trying 3 Revel Performa F50’s which are phenomenal speakers and I picked up two pairs of them for $500, however after all the effort of setting up a tower that weighs 100+lbs, the performance was the same.
Dude wow, I wish I'd seen a breakdown like this 15 years ago! I was thinking about getting a new center speaker soon as I can and this really helps.
Damn.... Every time I think I've gotten things figured out I find more great information !!! This process has been so over whelming I don't know if I'll ever be able to decide what to purchase.
Great video, please keep doing what you do.
haha. I hear ya'.
I hear ya, it's even discouraging. As soon as I get close to a decision on my first 3.1 I see something like this.
Thank you Erin, this is great to seeing someone who is using scientific data to help better understand and select good speakers! In addition your presentation style is very humble and honest, which is very unusual in this hobby where most reviewers think they know the truth and are preaching.
For those of us who like to listen to multichannel music the 3 front speakers need to be identical! That will
work best both for music and movies!
Too kind, too kind.
Hi
What's your thoughts about Dali spektor 2
@@ErinsAudioCorner
@@ErinsAudioCorner
Confused between elac debut 2 b6.2 , dali spektor 2, jamo c93ii, q acoustic
Please help me
This is why I always use a tower as center (when I am not going for phantomcenter which works very well in my room). I do not think my screen is acoustically transparent (don't know), but I have built rack and have my center tower upside down on it, so the tweeter and midrange is under the screen. Left and right tower is upside down on each their sub (same height as center). My last tower is rear surround (centered single rear surround), upside down on my third sub.
I do play all towers full range, combined with subs, and I feel this works very well, giving many sources of bass, both at floorlevel and about middle height of the room. Really even full sound with only one slight dip at about 90 hz (room mode I can not kill🤪).
Thanks for an informative video. Will send it to my mates so they can see I am not nuts when I tell them that normal centers are not optimal🤪
Thank you so so much for this such a quality video. Takes so much effort do such an educational video. A rare gem in an era of "Influencer' videos with no data and ten minutes of pointless talking.
I went with a bookshelf version of my mains (Revel) for my center channel. Sounds better than any other traditional center channel I've tried.
That is what exactly I did too. I really would have liked to go with a Revel c426 a little too big and costly. I used the revel bookshelf for the centre to go with the left and right towers.
@@rf0022 I about s*** my pants when I googled that speaker lol
My most costly speaker is my SVS PB16 Ultra.
But That center is 5k.. crazy.
Very good point. I placed my B&W center vertical to try out and boom, much better horizontal spread. Wow... this is an eyeopener
Hi Erin, I recently watched some of your videos and you're one of the few on youtube who is really on point on loudspeakers and acoustics. Unfortunately the internet is full of (biased) misinformation and voodoo so your channel is a breath of fresh air so to speak. You get a big thumbs up from me, so keep those videos coming!
I've designed and build my fair share of loudspeakers in the last 35 years, ranging from hifi and studio monitors to PA / MI loudspeakers.
This is possibly the most comprehensive and honest video on centers I've seen. You are so right, they are all a compromise! (Aside from the sonically transparent screen/projector route, which very few people can accommodate.)
The idea that centers in a speaker range match timbre with the fronts is also a myth in my experience. I had a poorly matched center that sounded gruff, mid-heavy, and resonant compared to the fronts - all from the same line of speakers! After moving to a home with a fireplace, I didn't have room for a large center anymore and wasn't happy with the phantom route. Replaced it with a Polk ES35 which actually matches timbre better... but the Polk has its limitations and compromises too, akin to the XT35 you covered.
With the space limitations of ever-larger screens, we are all being forced to compromise. And just getting a large center that's matched with fronts is no guarantee for success either.
I started out with a KEF HTIB set, dialogue was terrible. I then tried multiple other centers from Polk, Klipsch and finally landed on SVS Prime center and was FINALLY able to hear clearly.
It made me upgrade to their Ultra Center and it was even better for overall linearity (from my uMik readings at least).
This video would have saved me lots of cash and time. Awesome job.
Thanks!
You could also try without a center and maybe be surprised how well it can sound with the front speaker set up correctly with the same distance between them and to your listening position.
This is by far the best video on center channel speakers on youtube , and it’s not bull but real facts and I wish I knew about the different types of speakers a year ago when I was looking for the center channel for my system. I went with the Polk ES35 and I added a small subwoofer and personal it was the only one I was ok with mostly because of the clear dialogue and the added subwoofer I used was because of Erin’s suggested that it would help. I have to say that this is your best video yet for me personally and I appreciate your explanation of this topic that I am sure that many of us have been waiting for. Thanks Erin.
Nice work! I've fallen kind of meh on center channel speakers of late. One of the best things I did in my space now is having moved the front LCR in my theater behind an AT screen (using the Focal 1000 in-walls) and so have identical "tower" style in-walls and all in the same vertical orientation. Much better than a horizontal center under a large/tall screen. In my living room, I'm 100% happy with it being a 2.2 setup and a phantom center. Phantom works excellently in there.
i was thinking of using some polk monitor 40's for a center channel...
@P T Yeah, room correction can clean that up. They also recommend EQ'ing your speakers all the way to 20k when behind an AT screen, which I do in my Anthem.
I keep using that video for people, who do not know or understand enough about how center channels work, or why most of the MTM designs are flawed for Home Theater, at least for side seats. However, as Audioholics once mentioned, most home entertainment rooms/multipurpose rooms will have one couch/seating area and TV/Screen positioned in such a way, that the angle will most probably be less than 40 degrees for side seats. Which makes many MTM center designs still usable in those conditions. P.S. Thanks for the video as always, this is awesome :)
Wooow. What a great video. Good job on dropping the knowledge. Very tehnical and informative.
I wish more companies would make a 3 way design because it’s the obvious choice. And they could easily manage it with a 7-8” tall cabinet , 3-4” mid and 6,5” woofers and front ported so you can place it even in a cabinet. Depth and width can be different sizes.
Me for one , have made my 9 channel purchase based on the center channel design.
Thanks again.
You've really outdone yourself with this video. This is your best yet.
Thank you!
This video has taught me so much about center speakers, has probably saved me from a misinformed purchase of a not so good center. Thanks so much! Would love to see you review the Polk R700 towers & Polk L400 center
I found the easiest way to deal with the Left Mid Right speakers is use very large speakers of the same make and same specs for all 3 of them. So I have large 15" woofers, 10" Mid Woofers, 5" Midranges and 1" Soft dome tweeters on all 3 speakers. They can handle massive power and sound great. For the surrounds and Surround Backs I use Polk Monitors (All the same) with 3 way design using 10" woofers. For the subs, I have a separate amp power two 15" 1,000 watt RMS Capable subs. Works for my 7.2 system with a 150" 4K projection Screen.
I have LS50s for my LCR driven with 3 CH amp specifically so I'd avoid the issues of centers sounding different. I fully admit I didn't put nearly as much thought into it as you did, was more of a gut feeling that it would be best if they were all the same. Having watched your video, I now feel like I made the right choice, especially with the LS50 being a single co-axial speaker
Yea, you made a good choice. :)
How big is your room, and what crossovers do you use? Reason I ask is I was thinking of trying to run 3 LS50 Meta’s as my LCRs, but I’ve heard concerns of them not being loud enough, and particularly having issues at anything around 100hz and below at typical home theater volumes (75db and up). Curious what your thoughts are on this - if this isn’t a real concern, these sound like an AMAZING option. The LS50 Meta is only around 11 inches tall, so it would be easy to fit in the same spot as a center for me, it wouldn’t have the trade offs of the typical MTM design, and it would be an exact match to the L and R!
This is by far the best Video I have ever seen on this topic
Excellent explanation
I think KEF really does make some of the best center channels, particularly in their old IQ series or their current R or their Reference series. the ideal is to have the same driver composition as your towers, but with more width. While the iQ60 aren't properly identical to the iQ90, they are at least a proper 3-way configuration utilizing the beloved Uni-Q driver with it's delightfully wide dispersion. the old Reference 204/2c are my favorite overkill center channel to point to because it's massive and intended to directly match the performance of the Reference 205/2. beautiful center channel that actually ends up being larger than the towers they're meant to complement.
I have r300s with matching center channel and small 1980 vintage uni Q floorstanders for surrounds and SACD or Blue Ray surround music is amazing! I kept reading how much better 2-channel was with a dac and class AB amp vs. any AVR. Well, I bought a new 2 channel rig with wharedales, AS220, turntable with ortaphon black. I was mildly happy with it but still felt nothing was better than DSD through my old AVR through the Kefs. Then I tried moving the tube dac and streamer to the KEFs and was floored with the improvement in sound quality and soundstage. Kef scale like a mofo and are super hifi compared to Wharefedale lintons everyone is so enamored with these days. I still like the Lintons but am a little bored after only a few months where as the KEFs continue to impress with shock and awe even 7 years into them simply by adding tubes into the mix.
@@davidwald2938 Absolutely. KEF speakers are one of the few brands I've found that really can scale with better amplifiers and DACs. On top of that, even their older stuff sounds great. Honestly, even if I had an unlimited budget, I'm not sure I'd drop it on their latest consumer products. I'd probably just get a full set of Reference 205/2 instead. But that's also kinda my fault for having this predisposition to loathe when manufacturers try to lie about the number of active drivers on their towers by using passive radiators that mimic the powered woofers. I also just prefer how they tuned the treble in their older stuff to be slightly depressed compared to their newer stuff. I've heard their Q750, the Q350, Q150, R3, LS50 Meta, LS60 and my own iQ90 and I think the LS60 are the closest to my preference, which is the iQ90. Funny how you have to spend $7k for a set of towers to sound like a set that's almost a decade and a half old. I'll give them credit, though: if you have a modern minimalist house and you want an eminently attractive set of towers for a listening room then the LS60 are certainly about as good as you can get, but that's placing aesthetics pretty high on your list of considerations for speakers. They certainly don't sound bad, and even compared to some other towers from Sonus Faber and Revel they hold up extremely well at that price point, but they sound about the same as my iQ90 on an Onkyo receiver from 2015. And the problem that the LS60 has is that they've decoupled the speaker from the source chain so you can no longer experience how it would scale with improvements in amps and DACs. Personally, I'd recommend trying to find either a set of Q11, iQ9, or iQ90 on the secondary market and then throwing all of the extra money you saved into an epic integrated amplifier or a set of monoblocks with a DAC or sound processor. Their newest Uni-Q drivers have made some improvements with their tangerine wedge diffusers, but they're pretty marginal overall and you'd get better results by just improving how you feed them.
+1 here on the UNI-Q drivers for center channel performance. Have an old set of IQ's in my theater room and to me I struggle to replace them with anything newer as the soundstage and imaging could not be better. The UNIQ drivers are true audio engineering marvels and under appreciated.
Glad I came across this video. I actually just purchased the SVS prime center with the pinnacle towers as an upgrade. My old center channel is a 2 way and I always thought that dialog clarity and such was definitely different depending on seating position. It just sounded kind of muffled at certain angles and i couldnt put my finger on why. Now I'm looking forward even more to the upgrade! Theyll be here Thursday. Cant wait.
My wife, who tolerates the home theater, commented the first time she heard the Prime center how much better dialogue was.
Great video! I really appreciate the visual demonstrations with the waves and F/R shifts. I used to think the sound-field would just be more narrow, instead of it being so chopped up.
Would have been interesting to see the difference with a two-way arranged in a horizontal configuration. I have build a DIY-cabinet using the same drivers, crossovers, internal volume and port as my main left and right speakers. But because of the space limitations between the floor and screen, I could only fit the woofer and tweeter horn side by side. I experience quite a difference in the tonality between the center and L-R speaker. It’s probably a combination of the orientation and placement so close to the floor. I guess active processing could help out a bit.
Roger, if you can I would at least angle the center speaker up towards your ears. Get it so the tweeter is aimed at you ears when your sitting down to watch it. It would be more money, but when you can it seems like you need a new tv / media stand. If the TV is on the stand, consider a wall mount for the TV, that way you can have your center speaker horizontal instead of vertical. Unless you have a transparent audio screen and a projector. These are just general guidance tips. You may even know this. Just trying to help you out as all. Getting the center speaker higher and aimed right should make a huge difference for you. Good luck.
Very thorough and helpful presentation about a little understood topics: both center speakers and the importance of off-axis response.
Very informative stuff, Erin. I switched last year to 3 identical speakers for LCR (3 x Arendal 1723 Monitor S) and am so much happier with the results compared with my previous setup of towers and matching MTM centre channel.
I’m now subscribed - keep up the good work. :-)
Just came to the same conclusion for my own setup. Now i just have to find that one extra speaker to match my two fronts.
Do you lay the Arendal on its side ?
You made a lot of good points. That is why I build my own speakers. You can never have a good center channel unless it is behind the screen. Good luck with that. When I design a center channel speaker, I make sure the crossover is in the right spot to have full despersion from each driver. The biggest problem is placement. No way around it. You will have reflection from the screen and everything else around the speaker. Home theatre is a huge problem for speakers. There really isn't a good setup. All you can do is minimize the problems. Obviously the room is a huge problem as well. I have been a sound engineer, drummer and audiophile for 35 years. If your room is shit, your sound will be shit. You can have the best speakers in the world. They will sound horrible if your room is trash. Work on the room. Even junk speakers will sound better.
Well, I said good luck with putting the speaker behind the screen. Some people have that option. Most don't.
Very didactic! Full of logic and precise analysis. One of the best videos about audio I have watched. Congratulations!
😎 😊
I kept wondering why my surround system just wasn't giving me the sound I expected with music as with tv/movies? I got rid of the center channel, and now it's what I always thought it should sound like.
Excellent video. I’m glad I ended up using a bookshelf Elac UB-5 as my center. Not because I know what I’m doing but a pair of bookshelf speakers was cheaper than the matching center when I bought. Works great.
haha. Well, that worked out. :)
This video confirms what I've always suspected. A few years ago I designed and built a small line array system. I did a lot of research on the physics behind how the drivers sonically couple and act as a single source. I could tell most MTM designs were comb filter disasters just by looking at them.
If there is no room for identical triplets at the front, a coaxial is always the right move for a center channel, like the Kef for example.
Best off-axis (with a good crossover ofc.) with almost identical vertical and horizontal sound dispersion for most coherent center for many seats.
Do manufacturers not tune and test for phasing / beat frequencies / crossover interference problems ?
I wish I would have pulled the trigger on the Monoprice THX center I was going to send you.
Thanks, this was incredibly informative and really helped me with my purchase!
Biggest problem I had when setting up my system was reflections, and speaker placement. After installing a bunch of foam dampening on the walls and ceiling, and multiple hours of moving speakers around, forward, back, side to side and at different heights, it was like a miracle how the knolls went away.
FOAM does barely anything for room acoustics
Here from HTE! Great video with excellent info! I love hearing the technical info rather than just opinions. New subscriber here! Keep up the great work!
Awesome! Thanks for joining!
That is an awesome microphone test setup you used there to make those 360 degree sound plot graphs! I wish I had something just like that at my house or in my workshop, because if I did I would use it on every speaker I test, design, or improve, but I suppose that robotic test setup isn't very cheap, to say the least!
Great video man, this was the first video of yours I've ever seen, but I subscribed for more.
Glad you liked it!
thanks for the info. this is helping me design a rack-mounted speaker baffle whose drivers will be mounted horizontally. trying to optimize for the least amount of comb filtering. The current configuration is two extended range drivers on both sides of a 7" woofer. the extended range drivers are what im worried about - im considering doing a toe-out for a better soundstage, and maybe that'd help with interference. this is by no means hi-fi audio but i'd like to get it sounding alright.
Man you nailed it. I hope some day you get the subscribers you deserve considering how good your work is. Your examples are a photograph of my dilemma , I have the svs prime center and bookshelves as frontstage and I was considering to replace them with 3 arendal 1961 bookshelves .Good idea or not? :P
Sounds like a great idea. Since they don't have high sensitivity you may want to sit closer to them though
I’m glad I’m not crazy. I tried all the popular centers and have yet to be happy. Last ditch effort I wired a pair of 8ohm bookshelves together to give the amp a 4ohm load and placed them about 2’ apart from each other, and while everyone says it shouldn’t work, it sounds 100x better than a single mtm or 3 way center. None of the alleged comb filtering, etc etc. the only thing I haven’t tried yet that I want to is a single q150 sideways.
Do you have measurements to show this non alleged cone filtering. 🤔 he showed what happens when you have drivers playing the same frequency at distances apart...
@@SqueamishPuppetaudyssey measurements show no issues and a nice curve. I think it happens in a chamber but not always in room. Or not in every room
The comb filtering exists. You just don't see it as clearly because you're looking at in-room response which is only a single line. You need multiple measurements from the different seats and to compare them. Hope that helps.
@@ErinsAudioCorner appreciate it! The experiment is never over so I’ll keep playing. The joy of audio
Went down to a single b1+ as a center and no complaints at all. Beats any dedicated center I’ve tried and just so happens to fit perfectly below my tv, level with my towers.
For those of us who listen to multichannel music, there's really no substitute for a matched set of full-range loudspeakers.
$$$$$$
not many people listen to multichannel music because it's very rare and unnecessary. Stereo sounds much better and richer.
Outstanding presentation, and explains so much. Always wondered 'what the hell is wrong with the center channel' and kept getting bigger and bigger speakers.
I’ve been waiting for a video like this for EVER. This is the kind of content that should be coming out from Audioholics, but it’s never materialized! And I mean that with great respect towards you Erin. You’ve put in a lot of work and time into this video and others.
I own/use an Klipsch RP-504c (2.5 way) behind an AT screen. Sitting 10ft away. Your data and presentation help me hugely in understanding how my speaker may be radiating laterally…since Klipsch is a 💩 and won’t release their speaker’s data.
Well, thank you very much for that. Means a lot.
My set-up is contained within a square, 12 X 8 room and I'm the only listener and I'm always in the sweet spot, so no issues with Soundwaves being off-axis. That being said I'm quite happy with my Klipsch Synergy Black Label C-200 Center Channel Speaker. The vocals in films are reproduced with great clarity, but the vocals also have very clean low-end through this center speaker. No regrets at all.
Thanks for this, Erin. This was a superb analysis and extremely informative. As it turns out, I myself use the Micca center speaker and was experiencing the same issues of dead zones off angle in the front soundfield. But the solution turned out to be surprisingly simple. I simply connected TWO of the Micca center speakers in serial to each other and placed them a few feet apart. And no, despite what purists would have you believe, I didn't have to change the resistance setting in my Denon 3600H AVR nor is my AVR in danger of blowing out. Remember, modern AVRs have automatic shutoff safety mechanisms if they can't handle anything. I probably wouldn't recommend this with an older AVR but I have absolutely no problem whatsoever on a modern one.
So basically (if I understand what you’re saying here is)
You are running with 2 center channel speakers?
@@demonreturns4336 That's correct, Demon. They are connected in serial to each other and the Center speaker output on my Denon 3600H 9.2 A/V receiver. They are currently placed 32 inches apart from each other which works for my living room. I find this provides enough space between them that the sound waves aren't colliding with each other and distorting as well as eliminating the off-angle dead zones.
Please note that for this to work, your front left and right speakers also have to placed at the far left and right of the room where they are actually supposed to be so that there are no sound wave collisions there either. The major problem I find with most home theater setups is users place the left and right speakers right beside the TV itself which is far too close. At that distance, they act no different than center channel speakers themselves. At the very least, place them both just outside the total seating area I.e. the left and right side of your couch.
Here's the easiest way to figure this out. Place your front left and front right speakers all the way to the furthest left and right corners of your front wall. Now place two serially connected center speakers in equidistance from the front left and front right speakers and each other in the middle of the front wall. Give it a listen in all seating positions available in your room and then move the speakers around to your liking until there are no dead zones you can discern from any seat.
I have a 20+ year old JBL S-Center which is a three way similar design layout as the SVS you used as an example. I absolutely love it.
Very cool!
Erin, this was excellent. If there's any way you could measure Arendal's 1961 Center, please do. Also, what would be the crossover point/driver distance relationship we should be looking for that would indicate less potential error?
Thanks! I'll mention it to them and see what I can do. I still have to make my videos for the other speakers of theirs I have on hand.
25:59 Micca MB42X-C
26:18 Emotiva C2+
26:33 SVS Prime Center
26:53 Kef Q650C
27:35 Arendal 1961 Bookshelf
Am I imagining things, or does the Kef's on- and off-axis response sound more uniform, even though the Arendal's measure better? What could be causing this phenomenon?
Awesome video Erin. Very well done. A lot of good information here. It was nice to see a bookshelf being tested as well. I was impressed with the SVS Prime center speaker doing so well. It is a speaker I am considering for a center replacement. The other one I am looking at is the HC-1 MK2 Horn Center Channel from HSU Research. I would love you to review this speaker. I would like to see it's off axis response along with a full review. It's a speaker that has been out for awhile but doesn't have current reviews. There are links to magazine reviews when it was released. I am sure you would want to read them after you did your own testing. Or maybe you can get a review direct from HSU Research. If so please test their bookshelf HB-1 MK2 Horn Bookshelf Speaker. Maybe there is a viewer / Pateron that has one who will let you borrow one for testing. Here's hoping. Thanks for all you great work. 😀. Keep it up.
Thanks. I would recommend you reach out to HSU and ask if they'd be willing to send me some for review. I tried in the past with a subwoofer request but didn't get a reply.
I love this video -- any chance we'll have an updated center speaker comparison with updated speaker lines included, like the KEF Meta?
Audio Advice affiliate link: www.audioadvice.com/?referral=erins-audio-corner
Amazon affiliate link: amzn.to/3guFPYB
SVS: bit.ly/3slB1u9
The above links may earn me a small commission at no additional cost to you.
Hi Erin, I was soo looking forward to seeing the Elac UC52 radiation pattern, too bad you didn't include it.
@@AwesomeSauceShow I reviewed and posted the data last month.
erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/elac_uc52/
Erin, I think your Amazon affiliate link is not working/ incorrect. It just brings me to the main Amazon home page in the web browser. I even signed in to my account and tried again for the hell of it and same thing, just the home page.
The KEF Model 7 and Model 11 are stereo pair speakers with built in rear and center speakers with individual wiring for each. One speaker has a negative and the other speaker has a positive wire input for each center channel midrange and the coaxial tweeter in it. Sounds weird doesn't it? But it works really well! Do a test tone and you'll swear the sound is coming from the screen even though it's coming from each midrange and tweeter on each speaker on both sides of the screen. I love my model 7's!
The elephant in the room is dedicated center channel speakers themselves, with their varied form factors.
Three identical LCRs and don't look back, imo.
There's so many adequately performing two-ways that it truly makes little sense to pursue dedicated, horizontal, form factors.
Don't get me wrong, Erin this is solid work and likely quite helpful and educational to many.
My primary rig is a big system that functions as audio lab experiments, projects, etc. My wife is quite understanding and as empty nest'ers I've gone deep on several in room experiments... long term and short term.
Even with a direct view 85" display, my big 3-way LCRs work great... even with the center operating horizontally.
Big challenge being diffracted/reflected energy of the 85" display... of which I discovered a simple, effective workaround.
Also, it's worth noting side-by-side mids can actually be beneficial. There's a handful of examples out there, one that comes to mind was borne from the SEOS experiments... whereby to maintain tight center-to-center distances from HF driver to Mid (optimal vertical coverage), a pair of smaller diameter Mids flanking each other achieves the tight c-t-c, and a by product is great pattern control horizontally ... BELOW the range of the SEOS.
Understood. Some of those are points that I would have liked to talk about but... time. Thanks for the support!
Great video! I designed and built my center channel speaker with an MTM horizontal driver placement, but with a minimum mid-mid separation of about six inches (the 5 1/4 inch speaker edges are about an inch separated) and the tweeter is tucked in just above. This greatly improves off-axis mid-range response while still giving me plenty of SPL for movies. I consider this a “true MTM” configuration compared to the current fad in commercial center channel speakers. Glad I found your channel!
Thanks for the reply. :)
Actually not "true MTM", but just a variation on MTM, because the MTM design and the narrow gap between mid's is intentional to suppress vertical dispersion and works great for any speakers not laying on their side. I built the Audax HT system by Joe D'Appolito and the center channel is a three-way WTMW design so that horizontal dispersion isn't reduced. Essentially your design with the addition of a 3-way crossover and a dedicated midrange speaker (although my 6 1/2" woofers are a good 6-7" apart with the mid and tweeter arranged vertically between them). With only an inch between your mids I don't see how cancellation is not taking place...
This is the best center channel explanation out there! Well done Erin!
Thanks!
Woa. What an amazing video! You're continuing to raise the bar Erin.
Thanks!
I stopped using my KEF Q600 center speaker and went two channel in front as my phantom center is solid. Good for me in the center seat. I would buy another Q900 for the center if I had the room.
Thank you so much! This is very helpful!
Glad to have you here, such a great contribution to the hifi community, thank you Erin
Thanks. 😎
I've had my paradigm cc190 for well over a decade now, not really knowing much about speakers at the time of purchase, and I am still happy with it! Clear, crisp vocals, good lows and mids. Perfect for my needs. Sometimes less is more
I'm still looking at options for my setup. Kinda sticking to a budget including AVR of about $1000 - $1800. If possible I am attending to hit the THX min/max recommendations. As for AVR I've been eyeing the Pioneer VSX 835 or 935. For speakers I've been looking at the Klipsch Black Reference Theater 5.1 Pack/bundle. Which all together puts me at about $800.
My setup is going to be in my bedroom which is 10' x 12', bed/sitting space at one end of room, TV/Console at the other. Distance between me and the TV should be about 10.5 Ft. I also live in an apartment complex, so I've got neighbors below and beside me. Which is one reason I'm kinda working with a budget, no point in blowing the bank on high end speakers at the moment if I can't run them at full tilt.
Overall I'm just trying to achieve a good basic 5.1 setup, or possibly even a 5.1.4. I've looked at some of the Soundbars, but I still prefer a more traditional Individual speaker setup so I can adjust things as needed to achieve the sound space that works for me.
Thanks a lot Erin. Extremely well explained for a layman like me without involving too many technicalities.
You're very welcome!
Interesting analysis. I understand this is zoomed-in on the center speaker, but I'd be more interested in the HT impact of It. If you add 2 fronts (and surrounds) that can again completely alter the sound bubble. It depends on your situation, but this is why I never understand why people mix & match speakers in a HT setup. If It's a proper audio company they've spend years and years of audio science to optimise the bubble using their specially tuned HT product line. And the center is an integral part of that setup. That's not "just the center speaker". Who would listen to It in that way? You can add the SVS Prime to your setup and It will sound completely horrible mixed with other fronts. As you can see in this thread even, people are now buying different centers because of this video and think that was the best decision, lol.
The advise I would give is:
1. Try to stick to the same brand, ideally the same product range. If you're expanding from 2.1 to 5.1 and you can't find those anymore, I'd even go as far as to suggest to sell what you have and replace the whole system. It will save you loads of hassle to get stuff right.
2. Invest in an AV Receiver with proper DSP (with mic measuring your listening positions) to fix these things. I think most people still aren't realising how much impact his has. I'd even go as far that this probably has the biggest impact on your sound results, even your speakers. With DSP I can make sound $200 speakers sound better than a $2000 speaker without DSP, ever will in your situation, factoring in the lack of knowledge, challenging acoustics, limiting positioning in your room and laziness of most people (me included) to spend the time and money to get everything right without DSP. They've been getting so good. Audyssey, Dirac etc
Doesn't the front left and right speakers mitigate a lot of the problems you mentioned? After all, center channels are not intended to be stand-alone. They intended to be part of an array of speakers.
Perhaps, but recall that there is an expicit center channel audio track with Dolby, DTS, etc.
Our HT (13Wx21.5Dx10H) is relatively narrow so the front seats are around 15 degrees and the back row is around 10-12 degrees. My MTM Polk is great for application. Great info, I lucked out. Could use advice regarding ATMOS ceiling speakers.
Well, this explains everything! I tore out the 5.2 system and installed a fresh 2 channel. Using the Cambridge CXN streamer/DAC/preamp feeding the XTZ Edge Z2-400 amp with 10ga OFC cable to the KLH Model 5's. I did keep the two SVS SB3000 subs, and they blend in seamlessly with the Model 5's.
The soundstage is HUGE, the sound is three dimensional now, I have snapped my head around more than a few times looking for what made that noise to my L or R or directly behind me. The sound is just incredible in this system, and the KLH speakers are simply incredible.
I am so happy to be rid of that God awful HT setup.
Thank you for the work you do Erin, it is much appreciated.
Thanks for the positive vibes.
I have sent this video to a few clients Erin. First time I have ever listened to a useful comparison recording. Pink noise on and off axis is a brilliant choice. Too bad that you didn't have a wideband line array. I'll put one together and measure it. Depending on the diameter of the wideband you could have a reasonably stable soundfield in the voice range.
Mark
Thanks, Mark. I really appreciate the kind words.
One of your best videos yet! Very informative! I really liked you adding the 0deg vs. 25deg frequency response graphs near the end. Made it easier to understand. Thanks!
Center channel speakers can be used in other contexts, to great effect. If you wish to fill a room with full-range sound at low to mid volumes while still being able to converse in normal voice, try putting a pair of center channel speakers high up in the far corners of the widest wall. The sound, especially with classical or jazz, will have a “substance yet spacious” quality to it. Perfect for, say, a dining room. For this purpose, those speakers need to be very wide range… with the bass going down to 50hz or below.
yeah bro really going to put center channels up in the corners in the dining room.
Great analysis, but unfortunately the ones that measure well are really tall and will be difficult to fit. Aside from the off axis issue, how much of a compromise is it get 3 or 4" mid range drivers instead of 5"+. I'll be using a quality subwoofer in my system too.
I agree, most center channels suck. I went through many brands and models(Pioneer, Klipsch, JBL etc) before I finally settled on a B&W.
As a new owner of a complete emotiva t2+, c2+ home theater setup, thanka for deflating my excitement. Spent so much time doing research and went for these over anything like deftech, klipsch, jamo, etc... now im always going to wonder if i made a good decision :/
do you seat at a distance that goes outside the "safe" zone of the c2+?
^ what he said.
@@shaolin95 if its just my wife and i, we're fine, the kids can deal with it. If we have company over then i might let them take the sweet spot for the first movie or two :) its not the end of the world and they still sound fantastic from the little i listened before unplgguing them for remodel.
@@nickn3929 the sweet spot????? They will have to kill me for me to give up the sweet spot unless it is for a quick demo 🤣🤣🤣
I have the C2+. Sit about 6’-8’ away and it is just me and one other person shoulder to shoulder. Before that I had a Klipsch 504c, which sounded awful, muddy, ringing and boxy. I upgraded the crossover (and internal batting) with one from GR Research and it sounded much better, but still lacking in the full range especially in the vocal range. My C2+ absolutely stomped the 504c in clarity and I think it’s because of its 3 way design, having woofer mid and tweeter. Sibilant and high pitched (female) dialogue that would come off as peaky, distorted and harsh with the 504c became smooth and clear with the C2+. I just think it’s a better designed box, crossover, etc and I really prefer the sound of ribbon tweeters. This video was great, but it’s basically all about off axis listening. In an ideal world, I’d have a true home theater and run an acoustically transparent screen, then I would just have 3- T2+ speakers for my front sound stage.
Thanks for the video. As someone who has owned dozens of sets of speakers, I can safely say that I've never liked a sound that comes from that horizontal design often with the d'appolito style of speaker. I've complained for years that center channels suck as they never come under the same review scrutiny that the bookshelf or floor standers do. Who ever properly auditions or reviews a center channel? Apart from in the context of a surround system in a store, for maybe a minute of two - nobody does. It becomes the after thought of a full surround kit and it's the most crucial speaker! Also, hifi salespeople will try to say 'just buy the most expensive or biggest speaker you can, because it's important' - this doesn't fix the issue. I've had some shocking sounding center channels. They look like works of art too... The best center channels I've had are bookshelf speakers, even laying off axis they are stacks better than the alternative. If people have a bookshelf setup and want to expand to surround with matching center channel, I say they should consider another identical pair and keep one spare. Often the center channel is overpriced in the range and it's much better value to get a second set of bookshelves instead. Subbed 👍
I have shared this a couple of times. Disappointed that it shows up with the title "Center Channel Speaker Buying Guide" instead of "Why Most Center Channel Speakers Suck." The buying guide title is not nearly as compelling. "Buying Guides" usually suck, but this is the best demonstration and analysis of common center channel flaws that I have seen.
Yea, that was my original title but I changed it within minutes. For some reason, it continues to stick and I am just as annoyed by it as you are.
Great video, I started out with a Jamo Center 160 back in the day. Now I have the B&W HTM71 S2. I am so happy with the sound from the B&W.
Excellent, excellent video. I think the most important subject you broached is that each person needs to assess the specific needs for their individual room. As you clearly note linearity is equally as important as dispersion for a center speaker.
I often wonder why (and perhaps you could address this in a future video?) people don't just grab another TM bookshelf and turn it on its side and use it as a center if they are space/height limited? it doesn't work in all instances but the work you and others have done provides a wealth of knowledge as what will and won't work. a KEF Q350 would make a fantastic center on its side but similarly traditional speakers like an Elac DBR62 appears to have sufficient vertical dispersion (approx. ±25 degrees) to be used on its side and cover that horizontally. of course the big issue is trying to get either of those as a single speaker!
If there’s an issue due to many drivers as described with the Polk XT35… what would stop someone from opening the speaker and disconnecting 2 woofers?
This video is a MASTERPIECE, i have no words but bravissimo !
You could easily write a book with all your knowledge now
Thanks, man!
the issue i had for a long time is i felt it impossible to mach a centre speaker to my mane speakers. My speakers (electrovoice interface Ds) were manufactured in the 70s long before the centre channel ever existed. I finally took the plunge on a used Mcintosh cs360 without ever listening to it first. I took a chance on the mcintosh being that i live hours from the closest stereo shop.Now i need a 5 channel home theatre amp to match up with my bryston 4bsst .Thinking emotiva perhaps
This was excellent, it finally explained in easy to understand terms why I sometimes have family and friends ask "is there a problem with the surround sound" when they are sitting off axis. Good excuse foe new speakers.... LOL
LOL. We all need excuses!