If anything about move values, sente, reverse-sente etc. is not understood, please let me know! Let me know which parts of the video clicked for you, which leave you still confused and any questions you may have in general! Happy to answer and help you. This topic is a real game-changer, trust me!
Curious why reverse sente is doubled the same as a sente - seems like sente should be at least marginally more valuable as you'll be able to play the reverse sente once all your sentes are completed - or is doubling really just a rough rule of thumb and not to be overthought?
@@audendillon3454 Excellent comment! I'm not sure if I mentioned it in this video or left it out for follow-up classes, but I absolutely agree with your thought! When we say that a regular gote move's base value has a multiplier of 1, then it makes sense to give x2 to the reverse-sente gote moves, since they prevent a free sente gain. As you say though, sente can continue on and on, whereas reverse-sente is still a gote move. Thus, reverse-sente has a maximum multiplier of x2, whereas for sente what I say is "2+" or "2*" like that :) So indeed, although they're both on a sort of "x2 tier", sente is always better than reverse-sente when their base value is the same. I can tell that your study/understanding of this topic is already far along! Also yes, these multipliers are just general/theoretical, in a real game it can be a little different than "x2" sometimes depending on the actual value of the next things to play after the sente(s). I would also say that sente is even more powerful in most kyu-level games than higher level ones, because kyu players in general will respond to and be protective of things a lot more than dan players, especially if we're talking about high dan players and pros, who won't tolerate too much of it and prefer to fight back, ignore and trade. Anymore thoughts or anything welcome :)
Okay, watched the whole video. Go self! I had seen this kind of analysis before but getting it drilled in this time really stuck. Very good to know. Thanks!
@@BenKyoBaduk Extending this line of thinking to the value of an opening move on a star point in the corner maybe goes like this. The star point corner opener claims about 9 pts of corner territory if the opponent 33's and I play the double hane sequence. It also makes possible a star point extension on either side of the corner. These wouldn't be territory yet, but with one gote move could become 10 pts or so. Since this requires two gote moves to accomplish, divide it in half twice, or 2.5 points on each side. In total we get 14 points for the near corner and side values plus maybe one point for the ladderbreaking value versus the diagonally opposite corner. In total 15 points, and since it would be worth the same to the opponent, the total value is 30. I think.
@@frankcardillo5011 That's way over my head to be honest hehe, anyway move values are complicated when they're not confined to the edge of the board due to influence and other factors, but regardless it looks like you've arrived at something at least close to the answer. I don't know how much the first move is worth (and checking AI via passing or something gives a too-small number because AI move scores is a different system that is just not compatible with how we evaluate point values, and ours is valid but just used differently), but the first move in an empty corner (at the beginning of a game let's say) is definitely worth at least 20'something, and I could believe 30 or close to 30. We can make guesswork by following the chain of priority though, like there's a 15-point block move (or push in) after the 6-move joseki that starts with someone approaching a 4-4, 4-4 person knight's moving away, and slide on the second line, 3-3, extend away two spaces. The saving or capturing of one stone after that is about 10 points. If we follow the ladder back upwards, then before the 15-point block/push, the slide and 3-3 moves must have been bigger than 15, and then the initial approach move must have been yet bigger, and then the starting corner move even bigger than that. By knowing even just SOME move values, we're able to make useful comparisons and assumptions to get good estimates or at least assume one move is bigger than another, which is often all we need. :) Glad this stuff has got your gears turning in that way!
@@frankcardillo5011 Yeah, in other words what you're asserting or thinking or trying to figure out there goes past my own knowledge, the move values I know or can calculate are only the things on the edges, stone captures somewhere on the board, and places in the middle of the board with highly defined territory, the rest is comparison and educated guesswork making use of these things that I do know / can figure out. I believe it's the same for others around my level and probably most pros as well--that the moves they can assert a fairly sure move value of are generally the moves on the 2nd and 1st line, and other parts of the board where the point-change will be particularly countable/less ambiguous/less open. The rest is educated guesswork.
Great explanations, thanks. I understand the 2x multiplier for sente but must admit that a 4x multiplier for double sente seems dubious to me, because the player already has sente, I would consider it their privilege.
Appreciate the comment and feedback! :) We do have to combine the theoretical quadrupling with our own common sense in terms of the actual position, the approximate point value of the follow-ups we're threatening to make etc. But here is sort of where the "x4" does work well often and make sense: First off, in case I didn't make it clear in the video I should mention that when base value is the same (total territory swing, let's say 10 points), reverse-sente (a type of gote move that takes away opponent's sente) is "x 2" but loses sente, therefore a sente is "at least x 2" and generally a better thing to play since you keep your initiative after. You might understand that well already but I wanted to say this first (and for anyone reading this). So then, how can the "x 4" of double sente make sense? If we use these final values (I mean post-multiplier value, so for example 10 points reverse-sente is ~generally~ twice as big--20 points--as a regular 10-point gote that is gote for both sides) not as how many relative points we'll gain, but instead as more of an "urgency value", ie. a way of putting moves in order by size/urgency, then then "x4" becomes more of a useful idea. Another way to think is: When a move is sente just for black, for white it is thus reverse-sente to play there, but still a kind of gote so they lose the initiative. If it's sente for BOTH sides though, then the pain of not getting that move is all the greater. When a place on the board feels like a "for free" thing, a privilege, then it hurts to lose it when it's normally "ours", eg. our guaranteed 5 points in sente. When you play a double-sente, you are not only making sure you get it, but also taking away this from the opponent that they could have gotten "for free" ie. in sente. There's a lot to talk about with double-sente, its value is definitely less clear-cut than regular sente and it's easy to over-value it, but at the very least it's clear that it's more appealing than a regular sente, because what a regular sente takes away from the opponent is a gote, as opposed to a sente; double-sente is a sente that takes away / steals a sente. Bit of a text wall ^_^ Let me know your thoughts, please feel free to disagree / bring a counter point or of course ask questions. Thank you for the comment & great question!
@@7heHorror Great! Yes, ultimately most of the time when we're comparing moves, it's to figure out which to play first. The actual value ends up not mattering as much as long as we know which one is better to play. It does matter when it comes to big trades, like a big ko vs. ko threat & follow-up, but yeah I'm glad the "urgency value" thing works for you. =)
Your video content is very good. However, you just don't stay on task and jump around to all kinds of ideas, and it makes this much harder to follow. Also, doing a shot each time you say "like" will cause death in minutes. But, please keep the videos coming but please stay on target. I would love to try your private lessons but I fear they are as fractured as this and I don't think I would enjoy trying to jump around to keep the story on task. Just something to note. Cheers!
Thanks for this! Yes I am aware of these things. The jumping around happens from time to time especially in longer content, I don't think it's always a bad thing (relevant things / connections made) but I understand that a certain amount of it can be hard to follow, and from time to time I can even forget to circle back to a certain variation or what have you. The jumping around thing is a natural aspect of myself that is not so simple to remove, but just to keep aware of and keep accounting for as I improve the content. Ability to make lots of connections to other positions or relatable things and show that is a plus, but this trait certainly comes with its downsides. It happens the most during group classes because I do those at 10:30am which is not so long after I wake up. I just wanted to share that, it's good to hear someone bring it up sometimes so I get reminded to keep working on it. As for the frequency of "like", that's easier to work on. There's a certain level of casual that I like for my content (that is, a lot), but even I know that I say that too much sometimes. It's the same as "ums", which I also want to reduce :) Deal with the viewers: Every 100 'Likes' on videos = 1 less "like" per video on average in my audio :D ✧ദ്ദി ( ˶^ᗜ^˶ )
If anything about move values, sente, reverse-sente etc. is not understood, please let me know! Let me know which parts of the video clicked for you, which leave you still confused and any questions you may have in general! Happy to answer and help you. This topic is a real game-changer, trust me!
Curious why reverse sente is doubled the same as a sente - seems like sente should be at least marginally more valuable as you'll be able to play the reverse sente once all your sentes are completed - or is doubling really just a rough rule of thumb and not to be overthought?
@@audendillon3454 Excellent comment! I'm not sure if I mentioned it in this video or left it out for follow-up classes, but I absolutely agree with your thought!
When we say that a regular gote move's base value has a multiplier of 1, then it makes sense to give x2 to the reverse-sente gote moves, since they prevent a free sente gain. As you say though, sente can continue on and on, whereas reverse-sente is still a gote move. Thus, reverse-sente has a maximum multiplier of x2, whereas for sente what I say is "2+" or "2*" like that :)
So indeed, although they're both on a sort of "x2 tier", sente is always better than reverse-sente when their base value is the same. I can tell that your study/understanding of this topic is already far along!
Also yes, these multipliers are just general/theoretical, in a real game it can be a little different than "x2" sometimes depending on the actual value of the next things to play after the sente(s). I would also say that sente is even more powerful in most kyu-level games than higher level ones, because kyu players in general will respond to and be protective of things a lot more than dan players, especially if we're talking about high dan players and pros, who won't tolerate too much of it and prefer to fight back, ignore and trade.
Anymore thoughts or anything welcome :)
Very helpful - 🙏 Thank you
C: 47:15 D: 51:26 E: 56:45 G: ? H: 1:08:56 🎉
Okay, watched the whole video. Go self! I had seen this kind of analysis before but getting it drilled in this time really stuck. Very good to know. Thanks!
Nice! Glad if things clicked for you ^_^ You can always ask me something if not.
@@BenKyoBaduk Extending this line of thinking to the value of an opening move on a star point in the corner maybe goes like this. The star point corner opener claims about 9 pts of corner territory if the opponent 33's and I play the double hane sequence. It also makes possible a star point extension on either side of the corner. These wouldn't be territory yet, but with one gote move could become 10 pts or so. Since this requires two gote moves to accomplish, divide it in half twice, or 2.5 points on each side.
In total we get 14 points for the near corner and side values plus maybe one point for the ladderbreaking value versus the diagonally opposite corner. In total 15 points, and since it would be worth the same to the opponent, the total value is 30. I think.
@@frankcardillo5011 That's way over my head to be honest hehe, anyway move values are complicated when they're not confined to the edge of the board due to influence and other factors, but regardless it looks like you've arrived at something at least close to the answer. I don't know how much the first move is worth (and checking AI via passing or something gives a too-small number because AI move scores is a different system that is just not compatible with how we evaluate point values, and ours is valid but just used differently), but the first move in an empty corner (at the beginning of a game let's say) is definitely worth at least 20'something, and I could believe 30 or close to 30.
We can make guesswork by following the chain of priority though, like there's a 15-point block move (or push in) after the 6-move joseki that starts with someone approaching a 4-4, 4-4 person knight's moving away, and slide on the second line, 3-3, extend away two spaces. The saving or capturing of one stone after that is about 10 points. If we follow the ladder back upwards, then before the 15-point block/push, the slide and 3-3 moves must have been bigger than 15, and then the initial approach move must have been yet bigger, and then the starting corner move even bigger than that. By knowing even just SOME move values, we're able to make useful comparisons and assumptions to get good estimates or at least assume one move is bigger than another, which is often all we need. :)
Glad this stuff has got your gears turning in that way!
@@BenKyoBaduk Okay, thanks.
@@frankcardillo5011 Yeah, in other words what you're asserting or thinking or trying to figure out there goes past my own knowledge, the move values I know or can calculate are only the things on the edges, stone captures somewhere on the board, and places in the middle of the board with highly defined territory, the rest is comparison and educated guesswork making use of these things that I do know / can figure out.
I believe it's the same for others around my level and probably most pros as well--that the moves they can assert a fairly sure move value of are generally the moves on the 2nd and 1st line, and other parts of the board where the point-change will be particularly countable/less ambiguous/less open. The rest is educated guesswork.
Great explanations, thanks. I understand the 2x multiplier for sente but must admit that a 4x multiplier for double sente seems dubious to me, because the player already has sente, I would consider it their privilege.
Appreciate the comment and feedback! :)
We do have to combine the theoretical quadrupling with our own common sense in terms of the actual position, the approximate point value of the follow-ups we're threatening to make etc. But here is sort of where the "x4" does work well often and make sense:
First off, in case I didn't make it clear in the video I should mention that when base value is the same (total territory swing, let's say 10 points), reverse-sente (a type of gote move that takes away opponent's sente) is "x 2" but loses sente, therefore a sente is "at least x 2" and generally a better thing to play since you keep your initiative after. You might understand that well already but I wanted to say this first (and for anyone reading this).
So then, how can the "x 4" of double sente make sense? If we use these final values (I mean post-multiplier value, so for example 10 points reverse-sente is ~generally~ twice as big--20 points--as a regular 10-point gote that is gote for both sides) not as how many relative points we'll gain, but instead as more of an "urgency value", ie. a way of putting moves in order by size/urgency, then then "x4" becomes more of a useful idea.
Another way to think is: When a move is sente just for black, for white it is thus reverse-sente to play there, but still a kind of gote so they lose the initiative. If it's sente for BOTH sides though, then the pain of not getting that move is all the greater. When a place on the board feels like a "for free" thing, a privilege, then it hurts to lose it when it's normally "ours", eg. our guaranteed 5 points in sente. When you play a double-sente, you are not only making sure you get it, but also taking away this from the opponent that they could have gotten "for free" ie. in sente.
There's a lot to talk about with double-sente, its value is definitely less clear-cut than regular sente and it's easy to over-value it, but at the very least it's clear that it's more appealing than a regular sente, because what a regular sente takes away from the opponent is a gote, as opposed to a sente; double-sente is a sente that takes away / steals a sente.
Bit of a text wall ^_^ Let me know your thoughts, please feel free to disagree / bring a counter point or of course ask questions. Thank you for the comment & great question!
@@BenKyoBaduk Oh thank you. It does make more sense to me as a way of evaluating the priority of a move, rather than it's literal value.
@@7heHorror Great! Yes, ultimately most of the time when we're comparing moves, it's to figure out which to play first. The actual value ends up not mattering as much as long as we know which one is better to play. It does matter when it comes to big trades, like a big ko vs. ko threat & follow-up, but yeah I'm glad the "urgency value" thing works for you. =)
Your video content is very good. However, you just don't stay on task and jump around to all kinds of ideas, and it makes this much harder to follow. Also, doing a shot each time you say "like" will cause death in minutes. But, please keep the videos coming but please stay on target. I would love to try your private lessons but I fear they are as fractured as this and I don't think I would enjoy trying to jump around to keep the story on task. Just something to note. Cheers!
Thanks for this! Yes I am aware of these things. The jumping around happens from time to time especially in longer content, I don't think it's always a bad thing (relevant things / connections made) but I understand that a certain amount of it can be hard to follow, and from time to time I can even forget to circle back to a certain variation or what have you.
The jumping around thing is a natural aspect of myself that is not so simple to remove, but just to keep aware of and keep accounting for as I improve the content. Ability to make lots of connections to other positions or relatable things and show that is a plus, but this trait certainly comes with its downsides. It happens the most during group classes because I do those at 10:30am which is not so long after I wake up.
I just wanted to share that, it's good to hear someone bring it up sometimes so I get reminded to keep working on it. As for the frequency of "like", that's easier to work on. There's a certain level of casual that I like for my content (that is, a lot), but even I know that I say that too much sometimes. It's the same as "ums", which I also want to reduce :)
Deal with the viewers:
Every 100 'Likes' on videos = 1 less "like" per video on average in my audio
:D
✧ദ്ദി ( ˶^ᗜ^˶ )