One reason i don't feel progress is because i see hundreds of comments saying "I learned a new language in six months, it was so easy!" or "All i did was watch shows in my target language at advanced difficulty level from day one and it just worked!"
I can almost guarantee you they either had prior experience in the language or they study what they watch lol a lot of people say they learned a language in a short amount of time but then you hear them speak it and it’s very apparent that’s not the case so don’t try to compare yourself to them. Everyone is different just keep learning and you’ll do amazing even if it doesn’t feel like it just take your time
Whenever I see something like this about Japanese it turns out that this person already speaks Chinese or/and Korean so they have experience with similar grammar and kanji.
BTW, I bet you get this tons of times but your English is so good that it's hard to believe you've acquired that level of fluency without having lived abroad for years. Kudos for that.
I appreciate it. I actually rarely get that. In the later stage of my learning journey I stayed abroad for about 9 months (English was not the 1st language there) but I had already reached B2 before that. I would touch upon that in my future videos to clarify my history.
Awesome video! I had the exact same experience with Spanish: insanely slow snail pace progress at the beginning; more perceptable progress during the intermediate phase but still the sense of feeling overwhelmed by how much you don't know; and then suddenly it's soooo much easier to understand things and it gets rapidly easier. Hitting that 2nd brain stage makes all the initial effort so worth it!
I'm going through that first phase in my spanish learning journey. I started a few weeks ago and it seems difficult. I'm doing a lesson a day In madrigal's magic key to spanish book and I get some comprehensible input by watching short spanish beginner videos. I dont watch a lot of videos because I get bored fast since im not really understanding what is being said. However, im trying, and I won't give up
This has also been my experience. I have learned several languages to high levels of fluency and the progression Nate describes is exactly what I experienced each time as well. Once at university, I was set a book to read in French, L'Ecume des Jours by Boris Vian, a well known work of surrealist fiction. Being surreal did not help. It was painful at first since I insisted on looking up every word I didn't know. Soon enough, though, I gave up and just read, trusting that I'd understand enough. And the more I read, the more I understood. Later, I had similar experiences learning Italian and Arabic. This is "comprehensible" input and Krashen, by the way, is a major scholar in applied linguistics and English foreign language teaching. Comprehensible doesn't mean simple or dumbed down. It just means what is comfortable to you, or better, tolerably uncomfortable. Always work just beyond your level of competency. That is Vygotsky, but he's another story.
Thanks for sharing your experience and I'm very glad to know it resonates with the chart. Back in college, I wasn't a linguistics major (engineering, in fact) but it keeps intriguing me after I read through Krashen's thesis. Will keep learning and seek for ways to provide value to language learning fellows from both perspectives of a linguistics fan and a practitioner.
@@natenoto Yes. What you said resonated with me a lot and the "second brain" thing is spot on. At some point, you just start thinking in the second language - without even realizing it at first. This is when that learning plateau ends and you start to experience true fluency. Maryanne Wolf also describes this in her book, Proust and the Squid - ostensibly about reading. She said that first and second languages reside in different parts of the brain - following neuroscience, which may explain the dependence on translation for the intiial learning phase.
Is it a break while studying or a day break? Cause I don't think it's good to take a day off from learning, your brain will forget the last thing you learn, you need to constantly learn it to make it stay in your long term brain
@@junaidywijaya6413 It definitely depends on what type of learner you are. And additionally, progress in language learning is difficult to measure. But what works best for me, is to take long breaks, sometimes a whole week. During that time I still watch movies and series in English, but don‘t force myself to learn anything new. I can‘t tell why, but it works for me.
@@jesseward568 Breaks, both short and long, play a crucial role in effective learning. They help with memory consolidation, prevent cognitive fatigue, and contribute to better overall mental health and productivity. These findings are well-supported by various studies in cognitive psychology and neuroscience.
I hope become fluent in English someday. I like to study with texts in English. I've been doing for 1 year and 5 months, here from Brazil and on my own. It's not easy, but as long as you keep it up, you definitely learn it. Regardless of my english isn't fluent yet or I'm bad at speakin, I can do things that I never imagined doing before. I read mangas in English and watch videos as yours. That's incredible. On my channel I have some videos trying speak in English as well. That's a skill that I have some trouble. Nice video!
Thanks for leaving the comment. It wasn't easy for me either but like you say English did broaden my world. When I was learning, I never thought I would be making videos on RUclips and communicate with people from all over the world!
Let me tell you something. As a native speaker, what is important about what you just wrote is YOU are easily understood. Was it perfect? No. Did I understand what you were saying without struggling? Absolutely. Great job buddy, keep learning 👍
@@dt_does4998Right? Extremely impressive for only 17 months. I'll also add that every single grammatical error that he made would be immediately solved with prepositions. Words like " to, as, the, such, or, of" Which are uniquely difficult in English. No word order or vocabulary errors.
As someone who's learning six languages (including Japanese), I find so much of this to be true. I've heard many people in RUclips's linguosphere talking about learning a language versus acquiring a language; but I believe I've found a balance. See, here's the thing. Acquisition is preferable, but part of that is due to it being a rare occurrence. It doesn't happen when we want it to happen. Like all things in nature, it happens when it happens. Nevertheless, deliberate learning can ease the process by preparing our brain for acquisition. A language class teaches you the rules of the language. And this is good. If you wish to play a game and win, you must first know the rules. That's how you win. However, just knowing the rules is obviously insufficient. Once you know them, you must play the game often so that said rules become second nature (what we might call the "second brain"). Looking at it this way, acquisition may occur when we apply what we have learned in authentic, non-didactic contexts. In other words, once you've learned the grammatical rules of a language (and this process is in of itself lengthy because there'll always be something new), it is paramount to go out and consume content in said language. In doing so, you will experience first-hand all the rules you learned being applied in a natural, almost sub-conscious way. As these experiences build, they will allow for moments of acquisition. So, yes. We should learn grammar and vocabulary. What we should not do is stop there. We should then interact with content in our target language in order to truly engrain the rules into our subconscious, reaching a point where everything becomes natural. With discipline, time, and plenty of rest in-between, we can then reach that point of explosion as described in the video. In fact, I would go one step further and say that the moment of "explosion" is the precise moment in which all the things we have learned and seen in real contexts become second nature in our minds and our brains begin to acquire new information much faster because all the foundational learning we did finally set in.
The main points of language study vs. language acquisition are (1) the time investment, (2) the ease of immersion, when compared to academic study, and (3) the naturality of immersion for the human mind. To begin with (3), children are much quicker to learn to string together words, than they are to acquire grammar. Indeed, if your ability to use a language is at a basic level, people will misunderstand you due to your usage of vocabulary, and not usually your grammar. Grammar is acquired passively, in children, as they build large vocabularies. The immersion method suggests (1) that, unless you are finding some aspect of the grammar confusing, that you should not concern yourself with its study. I know from personal experience, as an English native, that a grammar book is not required in order to use the correct noun form in a sentence in Slovak, or to tell the difference between 'ag iarraidh' and 'arson' in Gaelic. Just like children, we will internalize these patterns as we immerse. So would you rather spend time familiarizing yourself with declensions and irregular conjugations that you would naturally learn in your learning journey, or spend that time just experiencing the language casually in a context that is fun for you? Obviously, any method of language learning is most successful when you enjoy it, so if you like to study grammar, then go ahead. Just understand that it may not always be worth the time. And my discussion above has already dealt with point (2). Because you can acquire any piece of grammar with a sufficient volume of immersion, there is no real point in forcing yourself to confront the details. People who learn Japanese don't need to study ga/ka. People who learn Latin don't need to memorize the categories of a noun. People who learn German don't need to speedrun all of the irregular verbs. Your brain will figure it out ANYWAY. The main point is this: a good communicator must be able to both understand language, and use it well. In order to use it well, you must have lots of practice trying. In order to understand a language, you must spend lots of time immersing. And the scary truth is: the more you immerse in quality content, the less practice you will need to use the language. We make mistakes because we make poor assumptions about the grammatical structure of the language. If you have internalized it, then you have much less room for error, already knowing how the language should sound. The more you listen, and the more you read, the fewer mistakes you'll make, and the easier the language will be produced in your mind. The truth is, although immersion might not be the most fun all the time, it is by far the most natural way your brain learns language. Your brain is meant to recognize patterns and relate concepts. It's okay if you can't speak on week 1, month 1, or even year 1. If you're not already living in another country, if you don't have family who only speak that other language, etc., then what need is there to speak? The dopamine isn't worth the drop in efficiency. If you're A0 - C1, then hear: For the vast majority of you, listening & reading >>> speaking & writing. It won't always be that way, but for now, it is.
One of the best videos I’ve seen on learning a second language! Unlike so many other videos, he does a fantastic job of explaining the learning curve and gives language learners specific goals. And, he keeps it to a reasonable length. Thank you! I feel so much better about my language (Mandarin) journey after watching this!
I find it fascinating that while watching this video, I realized why my progress was so fast many years ago while studying French--I subconsciously had the goal of getting a "second brain" in French. Thinking in & consuming the language constantly truly is the fastest way to make progress. At that time, I almost only listened to French music, watched French documentaries--everything I did was in French! It got me to a point where I could switch between them almost with ease. Hopefully I can get there again!
Your "second brain" concept is very insightful - I feel that is exactly where I am in acquiring my second language. I feel like I'm at the far end of the intermediate level, about to start a rapid climb in fluency. I struggled so long with grammar, syntax, vocabulary, pronunciation, etc. but somehow reached a point (second brain) where the language is starting to feel effortless. I'm not forcing myself to understand, it's just happening! It's very exciting! I also agree 100% with your chart: progress is NOT linear! To those acquiring another language: persevere! Keep your eyes on the prize and develop that "second brain"! 👍 New subscriber here, will watch your other videos - well done! 👍🙂
Thanks for the supportive comment. The idea of "second brain" actually already exists (not my original idea) but what I wanted to do was to mention that along my own context. Congratulations on your learning as well!
i really appreciate this way of framing language acquisition! ive been learning both korean and spanish for years and have been sooooooo frustrated about being stuck in the intermediate stage, and you're totally right that part of the issue is a lack of a specific goal. but the "second brain" concept makes perfect sense! i think it's the same reason why it's easier to keep speaking after you've warmed up a bit, or why unique words that don't have a direct translation in your native language sometimes stick better than others. I will definitely be trying to adopt this into my approach. (and as other commenters already said, your English is very impressive, kudos to you!)
Thanks! This is so useful! I can feel that I currently get closer to that second brain in Norwegian. It takes lots of time, effort & energy. Especially when you don’t live in the target language country. But this video helped me to get more understanding that it’s normal & reasonable pathway to achieve 🙌🏼
Great video Nate! I appreciate how you break down the stages of language learning. Your emphasis on achieving a "second brain" is spot on. As an English fluency coach, I also recommend focusing on comprehensible input. It’s crucial for building a solid foundation. Keep up the great work!
@@miguelangelrodriguez9578 I understand very simple Russian but if I were to watch the average RUclipsr or news broadcast it’s very hard to pick anything out. I’m doing listening practice by watching videos and listening to music.
Your take on language learning and the plateau effect was interesting. Good that you mentioned proficiency as I think that's something different from fluency. Being fluent takes a very long time, because there are stories and subject matter that a native speaker takes for granted but a newcomer to the language didn't grow up knowing and so doesn't know. I like the way you really dig into a TV show and copy out all the dialogue, using it to learn set phrases that you can use over and over again. If I can find some content I wouldn't mind seeing twice, I'll do that. I liked Andor well enough to do that, but I don't have Disney right now. I'm B2 in German and a native English speaker. Congrats on your progress in English, too. I think your journey was harder than mine since German is more similar to English than Japanese is. There's only really a handful of words that sound different when you pronounce them from a native speaker. I think given enough time, you'll master them. I have trouble pronouncing "welche" in German and I can't figure out how to get it right, though I can hear a native speaker says it differently than I do.
Thanks for the comment. Totally agreed. The English I speak is a just kind for communication and I always feel what I speak is fundamentally different from what native English speakers speak. And the biggest reason is probably because I didn't grow up with it as you mention. I hope filming myself will help me improve a bit. I'm also glad that you like the way I do with TV shows. Let's learn together and I hope to see your comments in my future videos again.
This was very helpful, this concept of second brain just blows me away because some months ago i literally started to think in english naturally, like without translating it, although with some mistakes, now i wanna do the same with french
I just discovered your channel and what I love about this video is how you summarize your ideas and repeat them so it really stucks with us ! Keep going! 👌
Sometimes I doubt I even have a first brain when it comes to language learning but I’ll definitely stick with it because it’s fun. Nice video and congratulations on reaching a very good level of English!
Simply amazing! Your advice is spot-on, and you've presented everything so clearly. I'm really looking forward to watching your channel explode. Also, your English is FANTASTIC. Every language learner should aspire to express themselves the way that you can. (*bows down*) 🙌
I am struggling to speak English fluently, and I used to feel discouraged because I thought my English skills were not improving. I found your channel today and watched this video. I realized that I need to reach "second brain" first. Thank you for the useful explanations!! your video motivates me to keep studying English...! I know it will be a long journey, but I believe I can do it and eventually reach a level of "explosion"
Thanks for the comment. I really appreciate it. Yup, it took me many years. It would be great if you come to this channel from time to time. I will be sharing more thoughts on language acquisition.
Through my experience of learning a new language, I would make the graph looks like sloped staircases with 2 plateaus You always have burst at the beginning, then you feel like you dont progress mucb anymore once you reach more difficult grammar and start doing longer reading (1 pages) or writing texts (3 paragraphs) Then another plateau when you manages to do quite a lot of speaking, but many people always says that you make lots of mistakes and get confused with you and try to avoid to talk with you There mivmght be another plateau in the middle but I can't remember it anymore haha
For grammar, I'd suggest that (except for the very initial phase where you try to figure out the structure of the target language), you should do input first, then, when you get curious about how something works, go look at the grammar about just that. Curiosity first, created from exposure to the language, then looking at the grammar. Don't do it the other way around, one doesn't learn a language by rote-learning grammar first. Get a feel for something, then and only then check the grammar (*if* you're curious. For language stuff the brain must be in a certain mode). (Though, as mentioned, it's fine to do some of this at the very beginning - just the basics. So that you're able to recognize _something_ when you start doing comprehensible input) Good video by the way. Incidentally, I learned English by Dr. Krashen's method.. it's just that I had never heard about that method way back then, my goal wasn't even English, I just drank in the input because it was compelling and I wanted to read it and listen to it. (I never once used a dictionary either. I learned all the vocabulary by the input and the associations my brain made). It was only when I decades later heard about Dr. Krashen's method that I reflected on this and realized "but.. that's exactly what I did!"
I agree! and I learn the grammar same way. At the very beginning, I just roughly go through a grammar book but don't stick to it, and then I just move on. It feels difficult at first but by going back and forth between new input and the grammar book/a dictionary, I gradually acquire the grammar. Same here about Krashen's thesis. I felt exactly the same, "that's what I exactly did!"
Comments like this, which are abundant in the youtube sphere of language learning, are very interesting to me. I essentially did the opposite. The grammar was fascinating to me; I would study a grammar concept and do textbook style exercises, and then consciously and intentionally seek out the grammar concept in any content I was consuming. I’d also bring that grammar concept into my italki lessons and intentionally ask questions or formulate responses which necessitated their use. Worked exceptionally well for me.
@@ryanbailey44 I think what you did is perfect - you let your brain's curiosity lead you. I think that's actually what I'm trying to argue - when you get curious about how something works, go look it up. That's the right time. For many that'll be *after* they've been through some kind of input and starts to get curious about something specific. That's the time to look at the grammar. If you have the fascination already then go for it right away.
Good video! I can relate with my current experience of learning Mandarin at the age of 57! Btw, I suggest you read "Output Hypothesis" as well by Swain. Essentially it posits that the more we feel pushed to produce utterances in the target language, the better. This, of course, will be effective after some silent period of comprehensible input.
Wow! 57 y/o and learning a new language! I'm so not sure if I can do that in my 50's. I respect that. I agree it's important to produce utterances. And as you mention, it comes after a certain period of comprehensible input phase, and the bigger problem is that majority of language learners would probably not reach the phase where utterances get important, so I just wanted to focus on that problem in this video. but thanks for sharing anyway, I just roughly knew about the thesis. I will take time and try to read thoroughly!
I think maybe the most important thing, besides acquiring second brain, is to accepting the fact that you're gonna be bad at it for a long time and that's fine. This might be by far, the most important thing because, at least from my experience, when learning a language you want to start consuming native content of targeted language as soon as possible only to get discouraged when you try to watch something in targeted native language. This is how I feel about my Chinese journey, and I've accepted the fact that it's gonna be slow at the beginning because I'm building a foundation, after which I'll be able to lay onto it anything I want. But yeah, it is important to enjoy the language as well even on lower level. I do that by using graded readers to have comprehensible input as you've mentioned.
Agreed. Things started getting rolling once I accepted the fact that it takes time. And that enabled me to enjoy the learning process. Thanks for the comment.
I have been studying Japanese for nearly 5 years now and I am at intermediate stage, but living in Japan and working as an English teacher is severely damping progress due to the limited use of Japanese every day. My everyday life is fine, I can converse in Japanese for hours with no issue, but I am always using the same vocabulary, expressions, and grammar. I do not feel I am growing the complexity of my expressions,.. it sucks. I am trying to read as much as I can now.. hoping it will stick in the process.
Same here in English...the progress feels very slow again once we reach a certain fluent level. Not that I'm trying to improve my English hard right now, I take notes on the words that sound useful/interesting to me when I watch RUclips. (e.g. pre-maturely, substantiated, reverberant, counter-intuitive, etc)
Thank you for making this video, this is very good for my morale boosters, because i recently feel like I'm going on a slower pace, or even i feel like I'm not advancing anymore, but yeah learning language isn't linear.. Thank you for your useful information and encouraging video, Btw I'm currently learning Japanese
Great advice Nate. Video can be quite powerful and I've known people who've learned English just from movies - or so they claimed. My kids watched Japanese animation for so long I wondered why they didn't speak Japanese yet - they were reading the subtitles but at least they learned to read! Narrowing a subject can help with this kind of learning. Cooking videos on RUclips are an example. I watch these in Spanish, Hindi, Chinese and even in Chinese I can follow a few words - Spanish and Hindi are much easier for me to follow, probably because I know most of the core vocabulary. The point is choose subjects you are interested in and know a little about - then don't obcess about understanding everything.
I agree, I always choose the one to watch that arouse my curiosity. Initially I need to look up many words but gradually become able to understand more as I review and re-watch over and over again. Thanks for leaving a comment!
I think I found my goal with listening! When I was studying in Japan, I almost developed my second brain, but I left right as it was almost done developing! So I'm gonna try to work on that for now! wish me luck! :D and Thank you so much for the content! :)
Good tips. For me, I like learning a new language by reading basic articles or watching videos. And when I encounter unfamilar words, I usually use Immersive Translate to help me translate them and then memorize them. I think this also an effective way to learn a new language.
Excellent video. I have French to a reasonably advanced level as I can understand some films, usually dubbed ones. That I can understand a lot of native content really helps learning. French is easy as English shares so many words. I have gotten very frustrated with German, progress is very slow, remembering words is so hard. It seems to be more like a fog lifting rather than learning a few new words each day. I initially remember the vague form of a word, then with time what I remember gets closer to the actual word until I have it. Does this sound familiar? English must be very hard for a native Japanese speaker. Your English is exceptional.
Thanks for the comment. German sounds more complicated, so my experience may not resonate perfectly but I did struggle acquiring new words in English. I combine various elements to make the words part of myself like auditorily (listening to the words), physically (pronouncing the words myself), visually (remembering the words with the scene from a TV show), or contextually, and then gradually the new words become part of myself over time. I also pay attention to the balance between the motivated myself and burnout, because I need to keep learning for a long time and the burnout is something I need to avoid anyhow.
Yea, this happened to me when i learned english in a non english speaking country. Beginner phase is when you learn the most common phrases, basic grammar, and most importantly contextual tenses. After the basics is built, you expose yourself to the culture of the language. Use dictionary to help. Finally, once you can do basic conversation, the last stage is to read more to add more vocabulary.
Props for reading Stephen Krashen's thesis. I haven't made the time. The idea that we only learn when we understand doesn't come across as very insightful so I'm not sure if I ever will. But I liked the graph you made - I'll try to keep that in mind when thinking about my progress. The explosion is just waiting happen once get through the intermediate plateau!
I really enjoyed your video mate! I'm still searching for my 2nd brain in Thai. But I've recently started listening to comprehensible Thai and fingers crossed I will find that explosion
It's like a garden. To be a good ecosystem, everything must form slowly. But year by year you will look at old snapshots and realize that huge progress has been made. But only when comparing through years.
I aspire to reach your level of fluency in my second language. I'm currently right at the threshold between beginner and intermediate. My grammatical understanding is pretty okay, but my vocabulary is extremely lacking. Second brain: I feel little hints of it from time to time, understanding without translating.
I think it's fine to translate when the vocabulary is weak. Mine in Chinese is still weak, and I look up many words to decipher a sentence, but my focus is always to understand its message as it is in Chinese.
Nice, i'm trying to learn english by my own , reading books, seing films and ...it work. It's not easy, and there is a lot of vocabulary that i don't understand yet , but i'm on the right track.
youre doing great so far, remember that it’s normal to hit walls, but sometimes it’s better to because then you can look up all of the new words that are giving you trouble and climb that wall also i want to correct two mistakes in this comment (the only two mistakes) since it’ll help you get further just a little easier “[…]learn english on my own[…]” instead of “by my own” “[…]seeing films and…it works.” instead of “it work” if you have any questions please feel free to ask
I am in my 5th year of (re)learning Japanese, and although it's been relatively steady, it has been painfully slow (I am only early/mid-intermediate). I say re-learning because Japanese was actually my first language (decades ago when I was a kid), because my parents wanted me to be able to talk to my grandparents, who could only speak Japanese. But when I entered kindergarten, I didn't know any English, so they dropped the Japanese completely and switched to English-only, and I never looked back (till now). My parents sent me to Japanese school when I was 10-12 years old, but by then I wanted to do things other than going to school on Saturdays, so sadly, it didn't stick... If I only knew then of my struggles now...! 😥 I've been thinking (maybe hoping?!) to myself that all of these grammar rules, vocabularies, kanji, copious notes written and all kinds of RUclips videos watched that are stuck somewhere in my head, would all start to make sense some day, instead of just being a bunch of scattered pieces. Now I know that "some day" will come when I acquire my Second Brain - and that is very encouraging to know! Thank you so much for clarifying some things I've been thinking, and for your encouragement. Videos like this help more than you know... 🙏
Thanks for sharing your precious experience and such an encouraging comment. It makes me feel so much effort put in each video has been paid off. Wishing you a good luck on your Japanese learning!!
Wow, thanks for your sharing. Before watching this video, I usually learn a new language by reading articles or news. And when I encounter unfamilar words, I usually use Immersive Translate to help me translate them 😂
Thanks for sharing, and I think Immersive Translate is really good for language beginners to understand foreign languages with its accurate translation
You can be very proud of yourself, because western languages are especially difficult for someone whos mother tongue is a VERY different language like japanese. For an english native, spanish, italian, dutch, german, scandinavian should be relatively easy because lot of the vocabulary is shared or similar and the grammar and pronunciation is also somewhat similar. Learning korean, japanese, arabic, hungarian, finnish, chinese or even slavic languages take a lot more time for english natives.
I am dyslexic and I wish someone would cover how language learning works for visual thinkers. I feel i translate nonverbal concepts (images) into my so-called first language (verbal) ...and for me it seems to work better that I give up translating words as much as possible and try to understand a new language through visual and context prompts, familiarity and that kind of thing, even hearing and repeating language like a nursery rhyme without understanding. A few words in old language only for cues to context. Basically immersion. I decided it was better to try to learn like a toddler - lots of listening for sounds, gradually listening for understanding, & then a little speaking, only later reading/writing - and this seemed to work a lot better for me but it is totally counter-cutural to how languages are usually taught. I think this type of approach might work for other people who don't do well in language lessons. Theres lot of people who dont learn well in the school system but 'pick languages up' from native speakers. Its sad it seems like a missed opportunity and too much frustration as people try to fit into a system that doesn't work for them. Like a lot of things the typical language teacher is often someone who did well within the existing system - probably not dyslexic.
Thanks for sharing your precious experience and thoughts. I respect an enormous amount of you put in language learning. My way of learning is "to learn like a child with adult's wisdom" in a nutshell. I look up many times but the focus is always to understand in the target language as it is as you point out. I agree with your thoughts on the school system as well. It is helpful at the very beginning, but we need to take off from that at some point of our learning journey if the purpose is to become fluent, not getting a good score on exams. Luckily RUclips or any other online learning platforms are getting influential more and more, so I'm hoping that I can be part of the sources that share what's beyond the school system.
That's a common situation in the 19th century, all the immigrants to USA, never had a course or class in English, they just learned it, by listening, repeating, talking on the streets. It's about the same, as learning piano without reading notes, still common today. For a dyslexic you are writing kinda long texts .. can't be that bad with you.
I feel like there is no alternative than hours spent reading it (just annotate words you don't know in your native language) watching films, and trying to speak in it with native speakers. Then break down the grammar rules later when enough of the language is commited to long term memory.
I feel like my improvement in Chinese has been pretty linear - every two weeks or so there’s an obvious improvement. But then I didn’t start out by translating, which perhaps helps a lot.
I was distracted by your face. Its beautiful. Especially your eyes. Also appreciate the video. It was really good! Cant wait to get to the last stage. I will be so happy to be at the explosion stage.😃
Hello Nate, I am trying to learn French and Portuguese at the same time, can you elaborate more about what you meant by comprehensive input, I am at the intermediate level for french and feel not making much progress
Here are some key points from the original thesis. | Comprehensible Input | -Language acquisition occurs only when comprehension of real message occurs. -The best method: input methods supplying comprehensible input in pressure-free situations. -With the help of context or extra-linguistic information, we acquire language that contains structure a bit beyond our current level. -Production ability emerges.
This 100 % I have studied japanese for a couple years many years ago and recently picked it up again. I would like to think that I am at an intermediate level. I know many words, can make simple sentences and can understand parts of videos in japanese, even without subtitles, but I am yet unable to fully communicate, as I am doing here in this comment. My wife has decided to start with the duolingo option not too long ago. She feels that she is not making any progress at all ( excuse me, but a couple weeks ago she would have not know what a hiragana meant even if was a life or death situation! ) With my English, what you explain in this video is what happened with me. I used to play soooo many video games and consume other english media, that it eventually became my second brain. Admittedly, it took quite a long time, but I was quite young. I would only add that you should also take into account natural talent. Like with everything in life, there are people who can pick up languages more easy than others, but that shouldn't discourage you from learning. It can be a bit harder, but you will get there!
Thanks for the comment and sharing your precious experience. Yup, I'm not talented but after at least five years I reached a decent level in English. I would like to prove that people can acquire a second language without talent!
Very nice graph…it helps to give me motivation. May I know the title of Dr Karshen book so I can buy it? Good job , direct and sincere video without any intent to sell anything compared to many others so called language experts who have hidden agenda
Thanks for the comment. You can find the thesis in the left column on Krashen's website. It's free. www.sdkrashen.com/ Principles and Practice in Second Language Acquisition Stephen D. Krashen Posted: 2004-03-20 You can find the same link in the description box as well.
Thank you so much Nate! I am happy to come into your channel, a humble and genuine sharing on your language journey. Good job and hope to see more postings.
I've found some comprehensive input resources for Japanese on RUclips but the majority are for beginners (actually I found only one channel with an intermediate level). Do you have suggestions?
Such a tough question...as long as a dictionary is provided, I would start with books considering how introverted I am. I would first try to decipher the most frequent grammar and vocab, and then aim to being able to pronounce them by looking for people who can teach me that. And then, hmm...probably keep doing that, and also would try to directly learn from native speakers? even though I'm not really good at it. TV series are not specifically made as comprehensible input material, and I just decipher and make them comprehensible for my own sake. So, the principle seems to be the same, but things wouldn't be as simple as the ordinary cases...I'm not sure I can manage to make it through. If the target language exists only as a spoken one (like a bunch of Chinese dialects), then the only way I can think of is to live in the place, but again, I'm not positive I can make it through. Interesting question, though, as I may come across that situation in the future.
I find it interesting that other people have to translate from the language they're learning to their native language before understanding. I was raised bilingual so I don't really have a single native language so the 'extra brain' is there from the start
It's great to hear that from someone who's raised bilingual. I think that's how language learning should be, not translating. But in some countries (at least in my country, Japan) the conventional education system makes student make translation so the teachers can evaluate, which is a bad idea for language acquisition.
I think the graph is more sigmoidal, i.e. you make a good deal of progress early on, learning lots of new stuff, but then it slows down until it feels like you're not getting anywhere and from here the graph is like in the video.
Years ago, when i was at school I had a lot of confidence expressing myself in Spanish. I could express any idea or need but I had apprehension about understanding responses! Over the last 30 years I've carried on working on my spanish privately, without tutors, and although I've only been to spain about 4 times in the last few decades, now I feel (thanks to youtube, netflix et cetera) really confident that I can understand repliles but I feel more inhibited expressing myself. Weird. My strength and my weakness has flipped.
Please ask me, I am at the A2 level... in German. What would happen if I completely immersed myself in German... such as spending 12 hours a day only watching films and series in German... What do you think would happen?
@dianabeaa Thanks for the comment. Theoretically speaking, you will only very slightly improve your German, because humans acquire a language when we understand the message of the communication, and A2 is not a level high enough to understand films and series by just watching or immersing yourself with (unless they are made for kids or beginner learners). If there are subtitles in German and your native language that may help but I'm not sure how much they would. From a practical perspective, it is important to form a habit of learning the target language almost everyday because language acquisition takes time. And to do so, I believe we should choose the learning style in which we can have fun because it requires the least willpower and is the easiest way to form a habit. So, if you can enjoy immersing yourself in German for long hours, that would work good for you in terms of forming a learning habit, but the concerns are that 1) it is difficult to understand films and series at an A2 level by just watching 2) 12 hours a day is too much time. What I can suggest is to give yourself a good vibe by watching or immersing yourself with German films or series, but separately spend some time actively trying to understand them. That way I think you can combine the second language acquisition science into your practical learning preference. Hope I am answering your question.
From a certain level, you are kind of fluent, have conversation, and people stop correcting you, cause they are polite. This hinders further improvement.
You need massive amounts of input to learn a language. If you get massive amounts of input and don't learn a language, that proves that the input was not comprehensible. After all, you can't understand it. If you get massive amounts of input and do learn a language, that proves that the input was comprehensible. After all, you can understand it! All proved in Professor Krashen's theory, which can be summed up as - 'Understanding a language is very important when learning a language.'
Really Interesting video. Your english is pretty good with only occasional mistakes in grammar and pronunciation / intonation - shows you have put in a massive amount of work. Congratulations. [You might want to be a bit more careful about the pronunciation of comprehensible (understandable) input vs comprehensive (large/exhaustive) - there is a fundamental difference in meaning but you (and some other people in the comments) seem to continually switch back and forth between the two.]
Thanks for leaving a comment and pointing out the pronunciation. I think my pronunciation wasn't clear enough because I never meant to say "comprehensive." I will pay attention to it!
@@StillAliveAndKicking_ - Studying the language rather than acquiring it: Getting a textbook, a grammar website, a course, or a tutor, then using those resources to explicitly study the rules and vocabulary.
@@StillAliveAndKicking_ I crammed for the DELF B2 exam, and it definitely helped me with conjugating irregular verbs, spelling challenging words, and memorizing specific expressions for the written portion of the exam.
@@Spence-from-Seattle Perhaps that is because the DELF exam is more about learning rules than understanding the language? I’ve heard you can get people with a high DELF level who can’t communicate in the target language. I can only say that for me studying grammar doesn’t work, memorising rules isn’t the same as knowing how to use them. Of course a grammar book can be useful when you don’t understand something.
@@StillAliveAndKicking_ I know that I'm not going to win an Internet argument about Krashen and CI. (I've tried many times on #langtwt) But I will say that the DEFL exam requires writing a formal letter, giving a speech, and orally defending an argument. None of those are tasks that could be completed without the ability to communicate fully in the TL.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
So true!! It takes time for the brain to get used to the language and then it gets easier and easier for the brain to hold onto words.
Exactly!! Thanks for the comment.
@@natenoto. Some times I don’t feel like I have my first brain. 😂
I am learning English in school, but something that has been helping me a lot is watching videos in English, now I am about a B1 in English
Good for you!
One reason i don't feel progress is because i see hundreds of comments saying "I learned a new language in six months, it was so easy!" or "All i did was watch shows in my target language at advanced difficulty level from day one and it just worked!"
Six months is a long time though. You can learn a lot in that time, especially if the language is similar to yours
I can almost guarantee you they either had prior experience in the language or they study what they watch lol a lot of people say they learned a language in a short amount of time but then you hear them speak it and it’s very apparent that’s not the case so don’t try to compare yourself to them. Everyone is different just keep learning and you’ll do amazing even if it doesn’t feel like it just take your time
No same. It's so frustrating
Language learning is a marathon, not a sprint! Don't buy into that bragging. Keep up the hard work and you'll get there!
Whenever I see something like this about Japanese it turns out that this person already speaks Chinese or/and Korean so they have experience with similar grammar and kanji.
BTW, I bet you get this tons of times but your English is so good that it's hard to believe you've acquired that level of fluency without having lived abroad for years. Kudos for that.
I appreciate it. I actually rarely get that. In the later stage of my learning journey I stayed abroad for about 9 months (English was not the 1st language there) but I had already reached B2 before that. I would touch upon that in my future videos to clarify my history.
@@natenoto Thanks, man.
すごい！New sub here. 10 seconds in, I was like, “Damn, he learned American English!” 😳 😂😂 American English is so over-rated ya know! 😜😜オ-ストラリアから 🇦🇺😎
Thank you!!
Awesome video! I had the exact same experience with Spanish: insanely slow snail pace progress at the beginning; more perceptable progress during the intermediate phase but still the sense of feeling overwhelmed by how much you don't know; and then suddenly it's soooo much easier to understand things and it gets rapidly easier. Hitting that 2nd brain stage makes all the initial effort so worth it!
Thanks for sharing your experience!
I'm going through that first phase in my spanish learning journey. I started a few weeks ago and it seems difficult. I'm doing a lesson a day In madrigal's magic key to spanish book and I get some comprehensible input by watching short spanish beginner videos. I dont watch a lot of videos because I get bored fast since im not really understanding what is being said. However, im trying, and I won't give up
This has also been my experience. I have learned several languages to high levels of fluency and the progression Nate describes is exactly what I experienced each time as well. Once at university, I was set a book to read in French, L'Ecume des Jours by Boris Vian, a well known work of surrealist fiction. Being surreal did not help. It was painful at first since I insisted on looking up every word I didn't know. Soon enough, though, I gave up and just read, trusting that I'd understand enough. And the more I read, the more I understood. Later, I had similar experiences learning Italian and Arabic. This is "comprehensible" input and Krashen, by the way, is a major scholar in applied linguistics and English foreign language teaching. Comprehensible doesn't mean simple or dumbed down. It just means what is comfortable to you, or better, tolerably uncomfortable. Always work just beyond your level of competency. That is Vygotsky, but he's another story.
Thanks for sharing your experience and I'm very glad to know it resonates with the chart. Back in college, I wasn't a linguistics major (engineering, in fact) but it keeps intriguing me after I read through Krashen's thesis. Will keep learning and seek for ways to provide value to language learning fellows from both perspectives of a linguistics fan and a practitioner.
@@natenoto Yes. What you said resonated with me a lot and the "second brain" thing is spot on. At some point, you just start thinking in the second language - without even realizing it at first. This is when that learning plateau ends and you start to experience true fluency. Maryanne Wolf also describes this in her book, Proust and the Squid - ostensibly about reading. She said that first and second languages reside in different parts of the brain - following neuroscience, which may explain the dependence on translation for the intiial learning phase.
@@MCJSA ehm so where does a third language go? I must learn portuguese now and it's like there's no room left for it :(
It‘s important to take breaks. The brain needs time to process information.
Is it a break while studying or a day break? Cause I don't think it's good to take a day off from learning, your brain will forget the last thing you learn, you need to constantly learn it to make it stay in your long term brain
@@junaidywijaya6413 It definitely depends on what type of learner you are. And additionally, progress in language learning is difficult to measure. But what works best for me, is to take long breaks, sometimes a whole week. During that time I still watch movies and series in English, but don‘t force myself to learn anything new. I can‘t tell why, but it works for me.
@@Dareios074I feel like you have to commit to doing it daily for a few weeks before you take a break, otherwise you will forget words.
@@jesseward568
Breaks, both short and long, play a crucial role in effective learning. They help with memory consolidation, prevent cognitive fatigue, and contribute to better overall mental health and productivity. These findings are well-supported by various studies in cognitive psychology and neuroscience.
I hope become fluent in English someday. I like to study with texts in English. I've been doing for 1 year and 5 months, here from Brazil and on my own. It's not easy, but as long as you keep it up, you definitely learn it. Regardless of my english isn't fluent yet or I'm bad at speakin, I can do things that I never imagined doing before. I read mangas in English and watch videos as yours. That's incredible. On my channel I have some videos trying speak in English as well. That's a skill that I have some trouble. Nice video!
Thanks for leaving the comment. It wasn't easy for me either but like you say English did broaden my world. When I was learning, I never thought I would be making videos on RUclips and communicate with people from all over the world!
Let me tell you something. As a native speaker, what is important about what you just wrote is YOU are easily understood. Was it perfect? No. Did I understand what you were saying without struggling? Absolutely. Great job buddy, keep learning 👍
@@dt_does4998Right? Extremely impressive for only 17 months. I'll also add that every single grammatical error that he made would be immediately solved with prepositions. Words like " to, as, the, such, or, of" Which are uniquely difficult in English. No word order or vocabulary errors.
Thanks guys ❤️
I'm English and I think your English is very good 😊
As someone who's learning six languages (including Japanese), I find so much of this to be true.
I've heard many people in RUclips's linguosphere talking about learning a language versus acquiring a language; but I believe I've found a balance.
See, here's the thing. Acquisition is preferable, but part of that is due to it being a rare occurrence. It doesn't happen when we want it to happen. Like all things in nature, it happens when it happens. Nevertheless, deliberate learning can ease the process by preparing our brain for acquisition.
A language class teaches you the rules of the language. And this is good. If you wish to play a game and win, you must first know the rules. That's how you win. However, just knowing the rules is obviously insufficient. Once you know them, you must play the game often so that said rules become second nature (what we might call the "second brain").
Looking at it this way, acquisition may occur when we apply what we have learned in authentic, non-didactic contexts. In other words, once you've learned the grammatical rules of a language (and this process is in of itself lengthy because there'll always be something new), it is paramount to go out and consume content in said language. In doing so, you will experience first-hand all the rules you learned being applied in a natural, almost sub-conscious way. As these experiences build, they will allow for moments of acquisition.
So, yes. We should learn grammar and vocabulary. What we should not do is stop there. We should then interact with content in our target language in order to truly engrain the rules into our subconscious, reaching a point where everything becomes natural. With discipline, time, and plenty of rest in-between, we can then reach that point of explosion as described in the video.
In fact, I would go one step further and say that the moment of "explosion" is the precise moment in which all the things we have learned and seen in real contexts become second nature in our minds and our brains begin to acquire new information much faster because all the foundational learning we did finally set in.
The main points of language study vs. language acquisition are (1) the time investment, (2) the ease of immersion, when compared to academic study, and (3) the naturality of immersion for the human mind.
To begin with (3), children are much quicker to learn to string together words, than they are to acquire grammar. Indeed, if your ability to use a language is at a basic level, people will misunderstand you due to your usage of vocabulary, and not usually your grammar. Grammar is acquired passively, in children, as they build large vocabularies.
The immersion method suggests (1) that, unless you are finding some aspect of the grammar confusing, that you should not concern yourself with its study. I know from personal experience, as an English native, that a grammar book is not required in order to use the correct noun form in a sentence in Slovak, or to tell the difference between 'ag iarraidh' and 'arson' in Gaelic. Just like children, we will internalize these patterns as we immerse. So would you rather spend time familiarizing yourself with declensions and irregular conjugations that you would naturally learn in your learning journey, or spend that time just experiencing the language casually in a context that is fun for you? Obviously, any method of language learning is most successful when you enjoy it, so if you like to study grammar, then go ahead. Just understand that it may not always be worth the time.
And my discussion above has already dealt with point (2). Because you can acquire any piece of grammar with a sufficient volume of immersion, there is no real point in forcing yourself to confront the details. People who learn Japanese don't need to study ga/ka. People who learn Latin don't need to memorize the categories of a noun. People who learn German don't need to speedrun all of the irregular verbs. Your brain will figure it out ANYWAY.
The main point is this: a good communicator must be able to both understand language, and use it well. In order to use it well, you must have lots of practice trying. In order to understand a language, you must spend lots of time immersing. And the scary truth is: the more you immerse in quality content, the less practice you will need to use the language.
We make mistakes because we make poor assumptions about the grammatical structure of the language. If you have internalized it, then you have much less room for error, already knowing how the language should sound. The more you listen, and the more you read, the fewer mistakes you'll make, and the easier the language will be produced in your mind.
The truth is, although immersion might not be the most fun all the time, it is by far the most natural way your brain learns language. Your brain is meant to recognize patterns and relate concepts. It's okay if you can't speak on week 1, month 1, or even year 1. If you're not already living in another country, if you don't have family who only speak that other language, etc., then what need is there to speak? The dopamine isn't worth the drop in efficiency.
If you're A0 - C1, then hear: For the vast majority of you, listening & reading >>> speaking & writing. It won't always be that way, but for now, it is.
This was very encouraging. I’ve been frustrated in an intermediate plateau but this is helpful to reframe how progress works. Thank you!
One of the best videos I’ve seen on learning a second language! Unlike so many other videos, he does a fantastic job of explaining the learning curve and gives language learners specific goals. And, he keeps it to a reasonable length. Thank you! I feel so much better about my language (Mandarin) journey after watching this!
Thank you! I really appreciate it! I'm learning Mandarin (Taiwanese) Let's keep it up!
I find it fascinating that while watching this video, I realized why my progress was so fast many years ago while studying French--I subconsciously had the goal of getting a "second brain" in French. Thinking in & consuming the language constantly truly is the fastest way to make progress. At that time, I almost only listened to French music, watched French documentaries--everything I did was in French! It got me to a point where I could switch between them almost with ease. Hopefully I can get there again!
Thanks for the comment. It really means a lot!
Your "second brain" concept is very insightful - I feel that is exactly where I am in acquiring my second language. I feel like I'm at the far end of the intermediate level, about to start a rapid climb in fluency. I struggled so long with grammar, syntax, vocabulary, pronunciation, etc. but somehow reached a point (second brain) where the language is starting to feel effortless. I'm not forcing myself to understand, it's just happening! It's very exciting!
I also agree 100% with your chart: progress is NOT linear! To those acquiring another language: persevere! Keep your eyes on the prize and develop that "second brain"! 👍
New subscriber here, will watch your other videos - well done! 👍🙂
Thanks for the supportive comment. The idea of "second brain" actually already exists (not my original idea) but what I wanted to do was to mention that along my own context. Congratulations on your learning as well!
i really appreciate this way of framing language acquisition!
ive been learning both korean and spanish for years and have been sooooooo frustrated about being stuck in the intermediate stage, and you're totally right that part of the issue is a lack of a specific goal. but the "second brain" concept makes perfect sense! i think it's the same reason why it's easier to keep speaking after you've warmed up a bit, or why unique words that don't have a direct translation in your native language sometimes stick better than others. I will definitely be trying to adopt this into my approach.
(and as other commenters already said, your English is very impressive, kudos to you!)
Thanks for the encouraging comment. The intermediate is so long that we often get lost. Wishing you a good luck to your Spanish and Korean!
Thanks! This is so useful! I can feel that I currently get closer to that second brain in Norwegian. It takes lots of time, effort & energy. Especially when you don’t live in the target language country. But this video helped me to get more understanding that it’s normal & reasonable pathway to achieve 🙌🏼
I'm very glad it helped. Thanks for the comment!
Great video Nate! I appreciate how you break down the stages of language learning. Your emphasis on achieving a "second brain" is spot on. As an English fluency coach, I also recommend focusing on comprehensible input. It’s crucial for building a solid foundation. Keep up the great work!
I really appreciate your supportive comment!
Great video! I’m a year into Russian and I feel brain dead when anyone talks to me but I still know the words.
Im starting to learn russian, do u feel that after 1 year you can undestand most things?
@@miguelangelrodriguez9578 I understand very simple Russian but if I were to watch the average RUclipsr or news broadcast it’s very hard to pick anything out. I’m doing listening practice by watching videos and listening to music.
Your take on language learning and the plateau effect was interesting. Good that you mentioned proficiency as I think that's something different from fluency. Being fluent takes a very long time, because there are stories and subject matter that a native speaker takes for granted but a newcomer to the language didn't grow up knowing and so doesn't know.
I like the way you really dig into a TV show and copy out all the dialogue, using it to learn set phrases that you can use over and over again. If I can find some content I wouldn't mind seeing twice, I'll do that. I liked Andor well enough to do that, but I don't have Disney right now. I'm B2 in German and a native English speaker.
Congrats on your progress in English, too. I think your journey was harder than mine since German is more similar to English than Japanese is.
There's only really a handful of words that sound different when you pronounce them from a native speaker. I think given enough time, you'll master them. I have trouble pronouncing "welche" in German and I can't figure out how to get it right, though I can hear a native speaker says it differently than I do.
Thanks for the comment. Totally agreed. The English I speak is a just kind for communication and I always feel what I speak is fundamentally different from what native English speakers speak. And the biggest reason is probably because I didn't grow up with it as you mention. I hope filming myself will help me improve a bit.
I'm also glad that you like the way I do with TV shows. Let's learn together and I hope to see your comments in my future videos again.
This was very helpful, this concept of second brain just blows me away because some months ago i literally started to think in english naturally, like without translating it, although with some mistakes, now i wanna do the same with french
Good for you! I’m trying with Chinese. Thanks for leaving a comment!
I just discovered your channel and what I love about this video is how you summarize your ideas and repeat them so it really stucks with us !
Keep going! 👌
One day your channel will have an explosion too. Keep up the good content.
Thanks for the comment. It's really encouraging!
your English is excellent, thank you for a great video! i can identify with all this while learning Russian. subscribed.
Sometimes I doubt I even have a first brain when it comes to language learning but I’ll definitely stick with it because it’s fun. Nice video and congratulations on reaching a very good level of English!
Haha. Thanks for the comment. It's best when we are having fun with it.
Simply amazing! Your advice is spot-on, and you've presented everything so clearly. I'm really looking forward to watching your channel explode.
Also, your English is FANTASTIC. Every language learner should aspire to express themselves the way that you can. (*bows down*) 🙌
It is an honor to receive such a comment from a certified teacher! I will keep trying to make good videos!
I am struggling to speak English fluently, and I used to feel discouraged because I thought my English skills were not improving. I found your channel today and watched this video. I realized that I need to reach "second brain" first. Thank you for the useful explanations!! your video motivates me to keep studying English...! I know it will be a long journey, but I believe I can do it and eventually reach a level of "explosion"
Thanks for the comment. I really appreciate it. Yup, it took me many years. It would be great if you come to this channel from time to time. I will be sharing more thoughts on language acquisition.
Through my experience of learning a new language, I would make the graph looks like sloped staircases with 2 plateaus
You always have burst at the beginning, then you feel like you dont progress mucb anymore once you reach more difficult grammar and start doing longer reading (1 pages) or writing texts (3 paragraphs)
Then another plateau when you manages to do quite a lot of speaking, but many people always says that you make lots of mistakes and get confused with you and try to avoid to talk with you
There mivmght be another plateau in the middle but I can't remember it anymore haha
Yes I agree with more of a jagged line -and it always seems more straightforward at the start.
For grammar, I'd suggest that (except for the very initial phase where you try to figure out the structure of the target language), you should do input first, then, when you get curious about how something works, go look at the grammar about just that. Curiosity first, created from exposure to the language, then looking at the grammar. Don't do it the other way around, one doesn't learn a language by rote-learning grammar first. Get a feel for something, then and only then check the grammar (*if* you're curious. For language stuff the brain must be in a certain mode).
(Though, as mentioned, it's fine to do some of this at the very beginning - just the basics. So that you're able to recognize _something_ when you start doing comprehensible input)
Good video by the way. Incidentally, I learned English by Dr. Krashen's method.. it's just that I had never heard about that method way back then, my goal wasn't even English, I just drank in the input because it was compelling and I wanted to read it and listen to it. (I never once used a dictionary either. I learned all the vocabulary by the input and the associations my brain made).
It was only when I decades later heard about Dr. Krashen's method that I reflected on this and realized "but.. that's exactly what I did!"
I agree! and I learn the grammar same way. At the very beginning, I just roughly go through a grammar book but don't stick to it, and then I just move on. It feels difficult at first but by going back and forth between new input and the grammar book/a dictionary, I gradually acquire the grammar.
Same here about Krashen's thesis. I felt exactly the same, "that's what I exactly did!"
Comments like this, which are abundant in the youtube sphere of language learning, are very interesting to me. I essentially did the opposite. The grammar was fascinating to me; I would study a grammar concept and do textbook style exercises, and then consciously and intentionally seek out the grammar concept in any content I was consuming. I’d also bring that grammar concept into my italki lessons and intentionally ask questions or formulate responses which necessitated their use. Worked exceptionally well for me.
@@ryanbailey44 I think what you did is perfect - you let your brain's curiosity lead you. I think that's actually what I'm trying to argue - when you get curious about how something works, go look it up. That's the right time. For many that'll be *after* they've been through some kind of input and starts to get curious about something specific. That's the time to look at the grammar. If you have the fascination already then go for it right away.
It seems like we all come to a point where we learn grammar out of curiousity
Good video! I can relate with my current experience of learning Mandarin at the age of 57! Btw, I suggest you read "Output Hypothesis" as well by Swain. Essentially it posits that the more we feel pushed to produce utterances in the target language, the better. This, of course, will be effective after some silent period of comprehensible input.
Wow! 57 y/o and learning a new language! I'm so not sure if I can do that in my 50's. I respect that. I agree it's important to produce utterances. And as you mention, it comes after a certain period of comprehensible input phase, and the bigger problem is that majority of language learners would probably not reach the phase where utterances get important, so I just wanted to focus on that problem in this video. but thanks for sharing anyway, I just roughly knew about the thesis. I will take time and try to read thoroughly!
I think maybe the most important thing, besides acquiring second brain, is to accepting the fact that you're gonna be bad at it for a long time and that's fine. This might be by far, the most important thing because, at least from my experience, when learning a language you want to start consuming native content of targeted language as soon as possible only to get discouraged when you try to watch something in targeted native language.
This is how I feel about my Chinese journey, and I've accepted the fact that it's gonna be slow at the beginning because I'm building a foundation, after which I'll be able to lay onto it anything I want. But yeah, it is important to enjoy the language as well even on lower level. I do that by using graded readers to have comprehensible input as you've mentioned.
Agreed. Things started getting rolling once I accepted the fact that it takes time. And that enabled me to enjoy the learning process. Thanks for the comment.
@@natenoto Thank you for taking your time to share your experience with us! 😁
I have been studying Japanese for nearly 5 years now and I am at intermediate stage, but living in Japan and working as an English teacher is severely damping progress due to the limited use of Japanese every day. My everyday life is fine, I can converse in Japanese for hours with no issue, but I am always using the same vocabulary, expressions, and grammar. I do not feel I am growing the complexity of my expressions,.. it sucks.
I am trying to read as much as I can now.. hoping it will stick in the process.
Same here in English...the progress feels very slow again once we reach a certain fluent level. Not that I'm trying to improve my English hard right now, I take notes on the words that sound useful/interesting to me when I watch RUclips. (e.g. pre-maturely, substantiated, reverberant, counter-intuitive, etc)
Thank you for making this video, this is very good for my morale boosters, because i recently feel like I'm going on a slower pace, or even i feel like I'm not advancing anymore, but yeah learning language isn't linear..
Thank you for your useful information and encouraging video,
Btw I'm currently learning Japanese
Thanks here again. I really appreciate your comment and wish you a good luck to your Japanese!
Great advice Nate. Video can be quite powerful and I've known people who've learned English just from movies - or so they claimed. My kids watched Japanese animation for so long I wondered why they didn't speak Japanese yet - they were reading the subtitles but at least they learned to read! Narrowing a subject can help with this kind of learning. Cooking videos on RUclips are an example. I watch these in Spanish, Hindi, Chinese and even in Chinese I can follow a few words - Spanish and Hindi are much easier for me to follow, probably because I know most of the core vocabulary. The point is choose subjects you are interested in and know a little about - then don't obcess about understanding everything.
I agree, I always choose the one to watch that arouse my curiosity. Initially I need to look up many words but gradually become able to understand more as I review and re-watch over and over again. Thanks for leaving a comment!
you're right! I never thought about second brain before but it's just so real!
I think I found my goal with listening! When I was studying in Japan, I almost developed my second brain, but I left right as it was almost done developing! So I'm gonna try to work on that for now! wish me luck! :D and Thank you so much for the content! :)
Good tips. For me, I like learning a new language by reading basic articles or watching videos. And when I encounter unfamilar words, I usually use Immersive Translate to help me translate them and then memorize them. I think this also an effective way to learn a new language.
Thanks for leaving a comment. Totally agreed.
So true,the line chart is so accurate for my situation
Great to hear that!
Excellent video. I have French to a reasonably advanced level as I can understand some films, usually dubbed ones. That I can understand a lot of native content really helps learning. French is easy as English shares so many words. I have gotten very frustrated with German, progress is very slow, remembering words is so hard. It seems to be more like a fog lifting rather than learning a few new words each day. I initially remember the vague form of a word, then with time what I remember gets closer to the actual word until I have it. Does this sound familiar? English must be very hard for a native Japanese speaker. Your English is exceptional.
Thanks for the comment. German sounds more complicated, so my experience may not resonate perfectly but I did struggle acquiring new words in English. I combine various elements to make the words part of myself like auditorily (listening to the words), physically (pronouncing the words myself), visually (remembering the words with the scene from a TV show), or contextually, and then gradually the new words become part of myself over time. I also pay attention to the balance between the motivated myself and burnout, because I need to keep learning for a long time and the burnout is something I need to avoid anyhow.
Bro you looks like Saitama from OPM. You're invincible! 🇯🇵
hahaha, it will be a thumbnail idea for my future video.
Yea, this happened to me when i learned english in a non english speaking country.
Beginner phase is when you learn the most common phrases, basic grammar, and most importantly contextual tenses.
After the basics is built, you expose yourself to the culture of the language. Use dictionary to help.
Finally, once you can do basic conversation, the last stage is to read more to add more vocabulary.
Props for reading Stephen Krashen's thesis. I haven't made the time. The idea that we only learn when we understand doesn't come across as very insightful so I'm not sure if I ever will. But I liked the graph you made - I'll try to keep that in mind when thinking about my progress. The explosion is just waiting happen once get through the intermediate plateau!
Thank you!
Great video mate! The second brain concept is eye-opening
Thank you!
I really enjoyed your video mate! I'm still searching for my 2nd brain in Thai. But I've recently started listening to comprehensible Thai and fingers crossed I will find that explosion
Thank you! I'm building mine in Chinese. Let's keep learning.
@@natenoto我也在造中文的第二脑海. 加油！
Thanks amigo, so encouraging. And your english is amazing.
のとさんのビデオを見て、大変勉強になりました。アップロードしてありがとうございます。中級のチャレンジを乗り越える方法が理解できるようになりました。今度のビデオを楽しみに待っています。
Excellent Japanese! こちらこそ、コメントを残してくれて本当にありがとうございます。コンテンツの制作を頑張ります。語学の勉強、一緒に頑張りましょう！
Thank you, you have such a great accent it shows how efficient your way is, keep it up
Thank you!
It's like a garden. To be a good ecosystem, everything must form slowly. But year by year you will look at old snapshots and realize that huge progress has been made. But only when comparing through years.
Thank you! Great information! I really needed to hear this.
I like how you broke that down. Very clear and easy to understand
I really appreciate it!
I aspire to reach your level of fluency in my second language. I'm currently right at the threshold between beginner and intermediate. My grammatical understanding is pretty okay, but my vocabulary is extremely lacking. Second brain: I feel little hints of it from time to time, understanding without translating.
I think it's fine to translate when the vocabulary is weak. Mine in Chinese is still weak, and I look up many words to decipher a sentence, but my focus is always to understand its message as it is in Chinese.
Second brain. I have always thought of that has having an independent room in my brain where thought occurs in that language
Nice, i'm trying to learn english by my own , reading books, seing films and ...it work. It's not easy, and there is a lot of vocabulary that i don't understand yet , but i'm on the right track.
Sounds great! Let's keep it rolling!
The same ''but in my case reading is very boring for me at the same time I like reading comments on RUclips ''I prefer so much listening and speaking
youre doing great so far, remember that it’s normal to hit walls, but sometimes it’s better to because then you can look up all of the new words that are giving you trouble and climb that wall
also i want to correct two mistakes in this comment (the only two mistakes) since it’ll help you get further just a little easier
“[…]learn english on my own[…]” instead of “by my own”
“[…]seeing films and…it works.” instead of “it work”
if you have any questions please feel free to ask
thx !
I am in my 5th year of (re)learning Japanese, and although it's been relatively steady, it has been painfully slow (I am only early/mid-intermediate). I say re-learning because Japanese was actually my first language (decades ago when I was a kid), because my parents wanted me to be able to talk to my grandparents, who could only speak Japanese. But when I entered kindergarten, I didn't know any English, so they dropped the Japanese completely and switched to English-only, and I never looked back (till now). My parents sent me to Japanese school when I was 10-12 years old, but by then I wanted to do things other than going to school on Saturdays, so sadly, it didn't stick... If I only knew then of my struggles now...! 😥
I've been thinking (maybe hoping?!) to myself that all of these grammar rules, vocabularies, kanji, copious notes written and all kinds of RUclips videos watched that are stuck somewhere in my head, would all start to make sense some day, instead of just being a bunch of scattered pieces. Now I know that "some day" will come when I acquire my Second Brain - and that is very encouraging to know! Thank you so much for clarifying some things I've been thinking, and for your encouragement. Videos like this help more than you know... 🙏
Thanks for sharing your precious experience and such an encouraging comment.
It makes me feel so much effort put in each video has been paid off. Wishing you a good luck on your Japanese learning!!
Good video, thank you!
Wow, thanks for your sharing. Before watching this video, I usually learn a new language by reading articles or news. And when I encounter unfamilar words, I usually use Immersive Translate to help me translate them 😂
A great video my friend! Hope your channel will grow and thrive)
I really appreciate it!
Thanks awfully. That's a huge help.
Thanks for sharing, and I think Immersive Translate is really good for language beginners to understand foreign languages with its accurate translation
You can be very proud of yourself, because western languages are especially difficult for someone whos mother tongue is a VERY different language like japanese. For an english native, spanish, italian, dutch, german, scandinavian should be relatively easy because lot of the vocabulary is shared or similar and the grammar and pronunciation is also somewhat similar. Learning korean, japanese, arabic, hungarian, finnish, chinese or even slavic languages take a lot more time for english natives.
Thank you!
"So you've been learning a new language for a while..."
"SEVEN YEARS AND I KNOW NOTHING"
I am dyslexic and I wish someone would cover how language learning works for visual thinkers.
I feel i translate nonverbal concepts (images) into my so-called first language (verbal)
...and for me it seems to work better that I give up translating words as much as possible and try to understand a new language through visual and context prompts, familiarity and that kind of thing, even hearing and repeating language like a nursery rhyme without understanding. A few words in old language only for cues to context.
Basically immersion. I decided it was better to try to learn like a toddler - lots of listening for sounds, gradually listening for understanding, & then a little speaking, only later reading/writing - and this seemed to work a lot better for me but it is totally counter-cutural to how languages are usually taught.
I think this type of approach might work for other people who don't do well in language lessons.
Theres lot of people who dont learn well in the school system but 'pick languages up' from native speakers. Its sad it seems like a missed opportunity and too much frustration as people try to fit into a system that doesn't work for them.
Like a lot of things the typical language teacher is often someone who did well within the existing system - probably not dyslexic.
Thanks for sharing your precious experience and thoughts.
I respect an enormous amount of you put in language learning. My way of learning is "to learn like a child with adult's wisdom" in a nutshell. I look up many times but the focus is always to understand in the target language as it is as you point out.
I agree with your thoughts on the school system as well. It is helpful at the very beginning, but we need to take off from that at some point of our learning journey if the purpose is to become fluent, not getting a good score on exams. Luckily RUclips or any other online learning platforms are getting influential more and more, so I'm hoping that I can be part of the sources that share what's beyond the school system.
That's a common situation in the 19th century, all the immigrants to USA, never had a course or class in English, they just learned it, by listening, repeating, talking on the streets.
It's about the same, as learning piano without reading notes, still common today.
For a dyslexic you are writing kinda long texts .. can't be that bad with you.
I've seen this graph before where the x-axis is quantity (instead of time) and the y-axis is quality (i.e. fluency).
Sounds more academic and precise. Interesting...
@@natenoto CEFR Spectrum - Eaquals
@broccolihikicks thanks!
dude, just ur perfect english is enough proof u know what your talking about.
Thank you!
good lecture. Thanks!
Thank YOU!
this is is such high quality content
Thank you!
Thank you. But there is no mention here of 'production' and actual speaking.
I feel like there is no alternative than hours spent reading it (just annotate words you don't know in your native language)
watching films, and trying to speak in it with native speakers.
Then break down the grammar rules later when enough of the language is commited to long term memory.
You sound amazing ❤
I feel like my improvement in Chinese has been pretty linear - every two weeks or so there’s an obvious improvement. But then I didn’t start out by translating, which perhaps helps a lot.
Good for you!
我以前的阅读老师还经常说 “态度是一切” 💪
I was distracted by your face. Its beautiful. Especially your eyes. Also appreciate the video. It was really good! Cant wait to get to the last stage. I will be so happy to be at the explosion stage.😃
Great stuff. Subscribed!
Hello Nate, I am trying to learn French and Portuguese at the same time, can you elaborate more about what you meant by comprehensive input, I am at the intermediate level for french and feel not making much progress
Here are some key points from the original thesis.
| Comprehensible Input |
-Language acquisition occurs only when comprehension of real message occurs.
-The best method: input methods supplying comprehensible input in pressure-free situations.
-With the help of context or extra-linguistic information, we acquire language that contains structure a bit beyond our current level.
-Production ability emerges.
Super advice!
Thanks a lot👏✨️ 1:26
Thank you!
This 100 %
I have studied japanese for a couple years many years ago and recently picked it up again. I would like to think that I am at an intermediate level.
I know many words, can make simple sentences and can understand parts of videos in japanese, even without subtitles, but I am yet unable to fully communicate, as I am doing here in this comment.
My wife has decided to start with the duolingo option not too long ago.
She feels that she is not making any progress at all ( excuse me, but a couple weeks ago she would have not know what a hiragana meant even if was a life or death situation! )
With my English, what you explain in this video is what happened with me. I used to play soooo many video games and consume other english media, that it eventually became my second brain.
Admittedly, it took quite a long time, but I was quite young.
I would only add that you should also take into account natural talent. Like with everything in life, there are people who can pick up languages more easy than others, but that shouldn't discourage you from learning. It can be a bit harder, but you will get there!
Thanks for the comment and sharing your precious experience. Yup, I'm not talented but after at least five years I reached a decent level in English. I would like to prove that people can acquire a second language without talent!
This video is excellent, keep it up 👍
Thank you!
Informative
Thank you!
Very nice graph…it helps to give me motivation. May I know the title of Dr Karshen book so I can buy it? Good job , direct and sincere video without any intent to sell anything compared to many others so called language experts who have hidden agenda
Thanks for the comment.
You can find the thesis in the left column on Krashen's website. It's free.
www.sdkrashen.com/
Principles and Practice in Second Language Acquisition
Stephen D. Krashen
Posted: 2004-03-20
You can find the same link in the description box as well.
Thank you so much Nate! I am happy to come into your channel, a humble and genuine sharing on your language journey. Good job and hope to see more postings.
I've found some comprehensive input resources for Japanese on RUclips but the majority are for beginners (actually I found only one channel with an intermediate level). Do you have suggestions?
I read the description, and I still don't quite understand what Comprehensible Input is...
THANK YOU 🎉
I have a question that nobody could answer what if my target language dose not have comprehensible input material?
Such a tough question...as long as a dictionary is provided, I would start with books considering how introverted I am. I would first try to decipher the most frequent grammar and vocab, and then aim to being able to pronounce them by looking for people who can teach me that. And then, hmm...probably keep doing that, and also would try to directly learn from native speakers? even though I'm not really good at it. TV series are not specifically made as comprehensible input material, and I just decipher and make them comprehensible for my own sake. So, the principle seems to be the same, but things wouldn't be as simple as the ordinary cases...I'm not sure I can manage to make it through.
If the target language exists only as a spoken one (like a bunch of Chinese dialects), then the only way I can think of is to live in the place, but again, I'm not positive I can make it through.
Interesting question, though, as I may come across that situation in the future.
そのような遅いカーブを感じるのは英語の学習を発音とか単語とか文法のような要素に分けるからで。
英語の音声は動的音であり、その動的な音が意味をもっています。英語なネイティブを真似、フィードバックで修正するディープラーニングが効果的です。
真似て覚える事により、発音、表現、単語、文法、使い方、そして音を覚えるのでリスニングもできるようになります。
初期の段階から上達を実感できます。フィードバックに骨伝導音声を使うと効果的です。
2:08 Let me help you Nate... following is both singular and plural. So no need to put an S on the end.
You're right, it's an adjective, it doesn't take the plural form. 🙂
What a nice content. Keep goin 🤟
Thank you 🙌
I find it interesting that other people have to translate from the language they're learning to their native language before understanding. I was raised bilingual so I don't really have a single native language so the 'extra brain' is there from the start
It's great to hear that from someone who's raised bilingual. I think that's how language learning should be, not translating. But in some countries (at least in my country, Japan) the conventional education system makes student make translation so the teachers can evaluate, which is a bad idea for language acquisition.
I think the graph is more sigmoidal, i.e. you make a good deal of progress early on, learning lots of new stuff, but then it slows down until it feels like you're not getting anywhere and from here the graph is like in the video.
Years ago, when i was at school I had a lot of confidence expressing myself in Spanish. I could express any idea or need but I had apprehension about understanding responses! Over the last 30 years I've carried on working on my spanish privately, without tutors, and although I've only been to spain about 4 times in the last few decades, now I feel (thanks to youtube, netflix et cetera) really confident that I can understand repliles but I feel more inhibited expressing myself. Weird. My strength and my weakness has flipped.
i wonder if this is because video content is removed and isolated
Hey man good video, just one question, how would i know whether i got the 2nd brain or not? Is there a test trick or we just ... figure it out ourself
Thanks for the question. When you comfortably think and speak in the target language, that would be a second brain. I think you feel it when you do.
I watched the video because I'm currently learning japanese, but also feeling like I'm stucked in English, even tho I've managed to get a second brain
Which of Krashen's many PDFs is his thesis? He has so many links on his website to so many PDFs that I have no idea which one is his thesis.
www.sdkrashen.com/
Principles and Practice in Second Language Acquisition
Stephen D. Krashen
Posted: 2004-03-20
@@natenoto Many thanks!
great video!
Please ask me, I am at the A2 level... in German. What would happen if I completely immersed myself in German... such as spending 12 hours a day only watching films and series in German... What do you think would happen?
@dianabeaa Thanks for the comment.
Theoretically speaking, you will only very slightly improve your German, because humans acquire a language when we understand the message of the communication, and A2 is not a level high enough to understand films and series by just watching or immersing yourself with (unless they are made for kids or beginner learners). If there are subtitles in German and your native language that may help but I'm not sure how much they would.
From a practical perspective, it is important to form a habit of learning the target language almost everyday because language acquisition takes time. And to do so, I believe we should choose the learning style in which we can have fun because it requires the least willpower and is the easiest way to form a habit. So, if you can enjoy immersing yourself in German for long hours, that would work good for you in terms of forming a learning habit, but the concerns are that 1) it is difficult to understand films and series at an A2 level by just watching 2) 12 hours a day is too much time. What I can suggest is to give yourself a good vibe by watching or immersing yourself with German films or series, but separately spend some time actively trying to understand them.
That way I think you can combine the second language acquisition science into your practical learning preference.
Hope I am answering your question.
From a certain level, you are kind of fluent, have conversation, and people stop correcting you, cause they are polite. This hinders further improvement.
I’ve only just started the video but I’m a little concerned about what will happen if I advance past intermediate…
Oh ok that’s not so bad
You need massive amounts of input to learn a language.
If you get massive amounts of input and don't learn a language, that proves that the input was not comprehensible. After all, you can't understand it.
If you get massive amounts of input and do learn a language, that proves that the input was comprehensible. After all, you can understand it!
All proved in Professor Krashen's theory, which can be summed up as - 'Understanding a language is very important when learning a language.'
🤭
Excellent.
really good info
Glad you think so!
Really Interesting video. Your english is pretty good with only occasional mistakes in grammar and pronunciation / intonation - shows you have put in a massive amount of work. Congratulations.
[You might want to be a bit more careful about the pronunciation of comprehensible (understandable) input vs comprehensive (large/exhaustive) - there is a fundamental difference in meaning but you (and some other people in the comments) seem to continually switch back and forth between the two.]
Thanks for leaving a comment and pointing out the pronunciation. I think my pronunciation wasn't clear enough because I never meant to say "comprehensive." I will pay attention to it!
I think CI is good. But I don't think it's the "end all be all" of language acquisition.
What is the alternative?
@@StillAliveAndKicking_ - Studying the language rather than acquiring it: Getting a textbook, a grammar website, a course, or a tutor, then using those resources to explicitly study the rules and vocabulary.
@@StillAliveAndKicking_ I crammed for the DELF B2 exam, and it definitely helped me with conjugating irregular verbs, spelling challenging words, and memorizing specific expressions for the written portion of the exam.
@@Spence-from-Seattle Perhaps that is because the DELF exam is more about learning rules than understanding the language? I’ve heard you can get people with a high DELF level who can’t communicate in the target language. I can only say that for me studying grammar doesn’t work, memorising rules isn’t the same as knowing how to use them. Of course a grammar book can be useful when you don’t understand something.
@@StillAliveAndKicking_ I know that I'm not going to win an Internet argument about Krashen and CI. (I've tried many times on #langtwt) But I will say that the DEFL exam requires writing a formal letter, giving a speech, and orally defending an argument. None of those are tasks that could be completed without the ability to communicate fully in the TL.
どのぐらい“second brain”かかりますか。 For you.