Water knot vs Beer knot: Which one is stronger?
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- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
- We tested 6 different things for Mark Hanna from www.swaymechanika.com/, all of which have been asked of me previously. I like interviewing him before each break because it gives a bit of context for each piece of gear and breaks the video into nice chapters.
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00:00 Intro
00:21Home built screamer
01:17 Swages
03:19 Scaffold knot variation
04:36 Blue water titan loop
06:35 Sewn termination vs fisherman vs scaffold
08:23 Beer knot vs Water knot
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Not a climber, just an engineer who gets these videos recommended. I think it'd be interesting to also measure the *energy* dissipated by the knot (the total area under the curve, force x distance) - because some knots might actually catch bigger falls despite testing at a lower absolute max force. That crimped eye for one was able to hold several kN for like a foot of distance - that amount of force multiplied by the long distance means it could probably catch a huge fall.
I was thinking the exact same thing!
Not an engineer, but I do climb.
To try and picture what you mean, would that involve a longer bite end of the rope? With more or same amount of crimps?
Seeing it slip under constant force made my think it's technically safe. Sure, a decent fall would pull the eye tight and you might not get many uses out of it but I won't be constantly applying 2kN if I fall. I think you're saying something like this, yes?
The only issue with testing dissipation through length is that his machine can only pull like 2ft max
@@PoochyMishaps I think they meant test it as is, but just measure the area under the curve. I could see this being useful with a 2-3 foot tag with a stopper knot on the end. It would almost be like a built-in shock reducer.
I think it would be incredibly interesting to get a FLIR setup (smartphone FLIR accessory can be bought for under $500) and see the heat patterns in the rope and knots as they're being pulled
THIS! Would be especially interesting to see with dyneema materials given its low temperature resistance
it would be neat to see how the temperature builds up
I didn't know how much I wanted to see this till now.
Impressed with the extra 5kn of beer knot!
Also very good explanation of why it is called beer knot 😂😂😂
If you drink beer instead of water, you'll easily get an extra 5kg of beer belly.
The inventors over a beer discovered the knot. Seriously it was in my memory and if it is accurate … a fire/ rescue team
The name just escapes me
because beer>water
it's just 1 though...
Most interesting beer knot loop didn’t break in the knot. I want to see more tests with longer tail bury lengths on beer knots as I use tubular loops tied with beer knots as top rope anchors. Would be interesting to see breaks on beer knots with 9/16” and 2” webbing as well
Started using beer knots 6 months ago and I would love to know at what point is extra tail bury no longer "worth it". I've only used sterling 11/16" and blue water 1" but both seem plenty strong enough for top-rope anchors (sliding X), PAS to go indirect with, and extending rappel devices.
@@adamwelp1079 I've been using the beer knot for over 30 years and there has never been any slippage of the ends. So 1 inch tail is long enough. There is no slippage because one knot is inside the other knot in the beer knot. In other words, when force is applied to a beer knot tied runner the outer knot cinches down on the inner knot. The runner will break outside the the beer knot before the beer knot breaks.
Would be good to see the european Decathlon/Simmond brand gear being tested. Lots of people in europe use them as they are normally cheaper so would be cool to see how they fair against DMM and black diamond etc
I'd love to see how the water/beer knots compare to their figure 8 (flemish bend) counterparts!
I haven't tested it but I bet the beer knot is stronger than the water knot or figure 8.
@@dwainwarren2952 Perhaps, but I've never seen a "beer flemish bend" tested (a beer knot tied in a figure 8 instead of overhandI). I can't see why it would be weaker than a standard beer knot.
@@colossalfart over kill, IMO. Since the webbing would break before the knot would. And maybe the extra bends would make the knot weaker
Another thing it's hard enough getting the webbing inside for an overhand beer knot. Way much harder getting enough webbing inside for a figure 8 beer knot.
@@dwainwarren2952 It only takes a very small amount of extra bury. You need to leave generous talis anyway so I'd say it's negligible. I've tried the knot and it seems to work great, but I've never seen it tested or recommended. Hence my curiosity.
@@colossalfart The only advantage I could even imagine in tying a figure 8 beer knot in a runner would be, that if you didn't cinch it to tight, in a fall on the runner the 8 beer knot might act as a shock absorber as it cinches tighter lowering its impact force. Other than that it's overkill, as the overhand is good enough since it will break in the webbing before breaking in the overhand beer knot.
So, the swage rope connection slipped at 4.5kN... the only time you would achieve that high of a force in practice is under dynamic loading (catching a fall). I think you need to drop test it... My guess is that it will slip a little then catch the fall as long as the peak force isn't too far above 4.5 kN, but it would get interesting if you did a factor 2 drop test that would normally peak higher than that (say 8 or 9 kN) and see what happens... does it slip more and then stop? Does it break? hmm.
Exactly my thoughts! Does it do sort of a "soft" catch and slip initially at the higher forces and then grab once the forces dip low enough? It could provide a bit of dynamic force throttling while keeping the rope relatively undamaged (it would be garbage after one fall though)
@@niceguy191it might be garbage after such a fall, but they’re very rare anyway. If it does happen, the fucked up gear goes on the wall of shame and gets replaced, even if it doesn’t look affected.
So, now its time to go put Beer knots into my webbing 😅, dope
I've been using a beer knot for over 30 years in my runners/slings and nobody ever believed me when I told them that my beer knot was stronger than a water knot. It's good to see you testing the beer knot!
Hmm I'd never seen it, but makes sense. Heuristics say doubling the material in the knot gives us full strength (2 x 50%). That said, 25kn is safety for rec climbing.
@@kevinmcdonough9097 It's a great knot. Won't untie and no tail. It takes a little while to make it but well worth it.
I've never tied a beer knot. That extra 5kN is great but breaking outside of the knot is amazing! Thank you.
I’ve used that Titan cordage before and I’d say that’s some pretty clear evidence that you need more than a double fisherman’s. From what I could see you never actually broke the load bearing component, the dyneema core. To me it looked like the sheath failed and the dyneema pulled out of the knot. I can see all of the core missing from one side of the knot and enough dyneema sticking out to make up for all of the dyneema in the knot. That must be why they recommend 3 bends because you need more friction to hold onto the dyneema. When myself and others splice cordage like that you do a double Brummell of the core and whip lock the cover on like a sailing line. If you do an end to end your only option is just kind of a straight bury. Love the beer knot, can’t wait to try it for myself!
You can definitely put a few brummels in the end to end splice. I believe Yale’s instructions show it that way, as well as others, and I have done that myself on a winchline for my chipper, and that splice is still rockin a year later.
casting my vote for more water/beer knot testing. I'm an arborist and use beer knot slings a lot, but couldn't find decent info online confirming the info I heard from others in the field about it. also curious about used beer knot slings and how wear, shock, and cyclic loading would affect it.
Another absolutely fantastic upload. Put the swage on the list of things to drop test please.
I’m also curious about this. Obviously it slips under low load, but how far would it slip during a high load fall?
And can you tie a stopper knot to fix this issue?
@@lambdalandis I'm curious too! A stopper knot might allow the peak forces to get much higher and potentially break somewhere while the swage might act as an "overload" protection so the system survives with a bit of slippage instead of failing outright.
I could only imagine the horror of seeing my rope sliding through the swage with me hanging 50 meters above the deck.
Fire fighters carry tubular webbing tied with a water knot. It has a ton of useful applications including a hasty sling or harness. Ive been using the beer knot and like how tidy it is
Time for a really dumb suggestion 😂: Why not try a beer knot with some hollow braid dyneema and core-sheath ropes? It seems like an interesting idea because you're essentially doubling the MBS of the rope in the knot and the knot alone.
I would love to see several beer knots compared to see if the results are reliable.
Is this a way to cut damaged parts of webbing out and not loose any strength?
Is this a way to splice shorter parts of like-for-like webbing together and get a longer length for "free" ?
Loved this episode! I was just wondering about beer knot vs water knot. Called a beer knot because beer is better than water...
Supper cool. Surprised at the triple swage ( i thought it would cut) but i guess it makes sense and the rope gets thinner under tension and looses friction. I was impressed at the beer knot performance (more than surprised i guess). My biggest surprise was the strength of the hand sewing the end of the 11mm cord. I thought that had no chance, but lookie there, way better than an aluminum swage, and it doesn't cut your hand or bash you in the head.
Keep it up.
I wasn't surprised at the beer knot test. I knew it was way stronger than the water knot and will never come untied like the water knot can. I've use the beer knot for over 30 years.
Testing more rope access stuff would be sweet! As a rope tech in the field it would be super interesting. Really any work at height gear - seeing the old stuff buddy used was cool.
I worked as a guide in Austria a few years ago and the Beer knot was a definite no go! A climber had died using a sling tied with a beer knot. He had used the sling at some time as an anchor near an edge. They deduced that the visible end of the tube tape had slid up close to the knot and the inner tape had been damaged. When he derigged it the outer end most likely slid down and concealed the damage. Later he was using it as a leave behind anchor for an abseil and it failed only a few metres into the abseil.
Hello, so what is a better alternative to a Beer Knot? Thanks.
@@gsatiucla5139 Water Knot is now more generally used.
Ever thought about measuring the forces applied when using rigging equipment for trailwork? High-lining 40' logs across a river to make a footbridge, hauling out massive rocks, that sort of stuff?
That could be very interesting. The key is always finding an expert who is good on camera.
Would love to see you do some testing on Via Feretta gear - the falls in VF can be pretty long and end very abruptly so the capability of the energy absorbers would be really interesting to see.
Since the swage pulls for 2-4 kN over such a long distance, I would be interested to see it in the drop tower. If it would slip all the way, or kinda "absorbs" by slipping and still breaks a fall.
Beer Knotts are cool. Only recently gave them up for stitched slings.
I’ve want to see y’all test the beer knot for years. I use tubular webbing to move rocks for trail work, so it’s cool to see the results
I am curious how the beer knot unties. I know the water knot can be a nightmare to untie when really loaded.
In whitewater rescue we often use Z-drags to haul boats that are pinned in rapids, our anchors almost always involve tubular webbing with water knots. I have a couple that are permanently seized from repeated pulling.
Could you test figure 8's? I have heard that you cant load a figure 8 from both of the strands coming out of the 8. This would make things like a quad with a 8, problematic. Could test loading an 8 from both of the tails and the loop and then test again with a much larger angle between the two tails of the 8? Thanks for everything you do for us rope peeps around the world
I'd love to see a deep dive into webbing knots - water/beer mainly of course..... different webbings, multiple samples..... I tied my first beer knot today - I think I'll convert all of my water-knotted slings into beer-knotted ones now.
Awesome information as always guys!!!
It would be really interesting to see you test, (static and shock), swaged steel cable, as several crags in the Red River Gorge are using it for perma draws on routes that are exposed to the sun for long periods, or ones that are super popular.
Thanks for all of your hard work!!
Very cool! I would have liked to seen a stopper knot with the swage. A drop test with the swage would be interesting too. 4 kn over a time period should stop quite a bit without sliding all the way through.
Beer know is good. But about 25% of time when rigging an anchor I untie the waterknot to get the sling around a bolder etc.... and then retie it. But will try the beer knot. Have to play with it.
THANKS
I've used an overhand on a bight to take up extra slack on a sling around a tree or boulder (to back up a two-bolt anchor). Wonder how that compares.
I suppose untying lets you thread it around if you can't put it over, though. Or leave it closed and basket hitch it?
So this is how beer knot is being done!
I found the water vs beer knots most interesting. I carry a length of tube webbing in my fire gear for evacuating a building and dragging victims, Ill think ill be retiing it into a beer knot
beer knot? new to me! and 30kn!!! might be a good DIY resling for cams 🤔
Great vid! I fully appreciate that your prime audience are SME, and even that any “rating number” is “just a number,” but it would be great to ‘splain a bit to the up-and-coming just what kilo-newtons relate to: sort of a “this big and this far” for a drop. Scott
You guys are just the tops
Two of the connections I'm really interested about in one video! 👍
I've seen a number of swaged rope connections and I've always been a bit skeptical. I always thought some sharp edge in the swage with cut the line. Super interesting result there!
I do a lot of stitched & whipped eye connections in high-tech lines that can't be spliced (ex. Maffioli Swiftcord) and I was always curious about how that kind of connection would hold-up (my applications are almost always used *way* under the the nominal working load of the line, so it's always been "Super Good Enough"...)
I would be interested in seeing how a swage fails with wire-rope (7x19 and 1x19)...
It would be awesome if @HowNOT2 had a thermal camera to record the slack snap breaks.
I`d love to see more of the swage and the water/beer knot.
Great video!!
Very cool, especially the swage slipping and that carnage shot in the end!
Wish i had a spare flip line to send in. The clips are typically good to 5,000lbs, and mine is a steel core. Curious to see what loading my gibbs klimbair adjuster will do.
Very cool. I knew beer was better than water. I use it to make slings for ascending so there's no tails to get caught in devices. Thanks
The beer knot, seems like that's a way to easily make slings. I wonder if the beer figure eight would also work (possibly with better removability).
I think a beer knot in a figure 8 setting has a couple of disadvantages. You'd need more material to make it, most likely make it harder to untie because of more bends, also be overkill because a beer knot is strong enough. The webbing will break somewhere else before it breaks at the beer knot using the overhand knot you use to make the beer knot.
I make all my slings and runners using the beer knot. I've used it since the 80s.
Cool to see some elevated work industry standards put to test. I work on towers and you always hear a lot of rumors and not supposed to do this and this doesn’t matter kind of stuff. But who really knows. A lot of industry standards don’t make sense.
The interviews are really sweet!
Hi, thank you very much for your videos, always interesting. I had one question, you are always testing the nods under constant strain. I use dyneema loop that I close with a nod. I use it as anchors around o rock or a tree or whatever I find. They are supposed to hold if I fall. Therefore, it will be more a pic force than a constant load. As you build a nice drop tower, would you be so king to test the behaviour of nods when arresting a fall (pic load)? Thank you so much!
That beer knot was pretty awesome!
I'm always rooting for you, from South Korea.
tying a knot on the end of the swage (or some kind of termination that keeps the tail from slipping back through)
wow, interesting that Petzl doesn't give the MBS. From the technical notice: "The maximum load that can be transmitted to the structure by the temporary
anchor is 18 kN in the choked configuration, and 23 kN when wrapped around the
structure. The rope may elongate up to 40 mm when under load"
saved the best test til the end lol. I make sport slings with beer knots so great to see it didn't flinch! Time for knot olympics ?? 😀
Beer knots look super interesting. And webbing is cheap enough that making a handful might be cheap way to have custom length slings
All my slings and runners are made using the beer knot. Been using it since the 80s. I've never had problems with that knot. Before I started using the beer knot I tied my slings with the grapevine knot. I never was a fan of sewn runners.
The only sewn I use are quickdraws.
I hand-sew titan cord with 100 lbs test braided spectra fishing line. I've pulled the sewn loops against a figure 8, and it broke in the knot at about 2/3 rated strength
The slipping swage may be a good technique to use as a screamer.
The tightening knots produce heat which reduces the strength of the rope. If knots are tensioned in such a way (over a long time) so that the energy (heat) is allowed to disipate without allowing the temperature to build up then the breaking strength will be greater asw you will be testing a rope that remains cool throughout the testing phase. This is why the old (already tightened) knot was stronger than the newly (looser) tied knot. This also probably explains why you get shuch a variation in test results for textiles compared to metals.
After that test I'd fall on a swage setup. But like with a stopper knot, and only once. The slipping would ease the fall to the point of the stopper and slow down the fall. Wouldn't climb with it but maybe if I'm working and don't expect a fall.
Been using the beer not for over 20 years. IMO it is the best not for making your own slings. No tails to mess around with. Super easy to tie.
I've got you beat by 10 years, Paul. 30plus years for me.
I have a bd
cam that's older than 10 years. Friends tell me I should get the sling renewed, but as I live in Germany that's actually not as easy as it sounds. I added a backup sling to the cam instead. A tubular webbing with a water knot. Some people call the water knot the death knot because they say it can come undone. Have you heard about that? And would a beer knot work better for my purpose?
Beer knot for the win!!!!
I wonder if a loose swage(?) could be used as a screamer. If you could get it to consistently slip at 1 - 2 kN I think that would be good, then put a stopper knott on the end as a back up.
I began tying the "Beer knot" in runners, in the mid-1970's; Bill Forrest had a testing device in his Denver shop, and he also found the knot was as strong as the webbing - and yet, in normal use, has zero "creep" factor as long as the knot is in the zone of the captured material, and also is easily untied by hand, after weighting. Basically, the best tubular webbing knot bar none. The more you know . . .
In stark contrast, seeing the total fail of a homemade "screamer" and swaged rope ends reinforces the concept that no DIY method, however novel, should be incorporated without actual testing to failure - because your first real world experience may well be such a test.
im interested in the sewn loops. what do they break at? can those be home made with any success?
Do you have a video testing rope kellems? I know they're not for climbing but I use them pretty frequently and we load ours up to 4000 lbf. And we pull new wire in with it like that, I'd just be curious to see where it failed.
there was no beer in the video!!! I want my money back!!!
jokes aside, great video as always!
Posted on my 21st, going to rei for some beer knot material now
Have you done a swage comparison (roller vs nicropress) on 1x19 SS wire used on sailboats? Might be scary to watch!
The swage is softer material than the steel cable it was meant to be compressed on, which let it conform to the cable strands, giving it more grip, which couldn’t happen with the soft rope. Even then i preferred swageless terminals, especially when filled with epoxy. Wondering what that would do with dyneema.
That swage appeared to fail because the rope diameter shank considerably as it stretched. Different rope construction that didn't stretch as much might give better results?
Have you tested a water knot with an overhand knot on the tails for added safety cheers
I know you guys are smarter and more experienced than me, but would you get a different result with your hot knots if you stepped your tests to give time for the friction heat to cool and set the rope ( or just five the melting material a chance to glaze over)?
Just a thought! Look forward to hearing back!
Beer knot is awesome.
Have you fellas tested the water knot in rope? Dyneema core would be interesting.
The beer knot is very interesting!
Kong Italy - Express Frog Quickdraw are there any good? What do they break it?
Everybody like and comment, so the algorithm will start liking this channel again
Would like to see breaking strength the 5mm dyneema tech cord with 3 fisherman's vs 2 fisherman's, both with long tails.
The slipping swage on a true drop. Will it break or catch enough enegery with the slip.
You should pull adjustable anchor systems like the Petzl Dual Connect Adjust and stuff like that
What was the red sling's rated strength? Does 3 stitches indicate 3x5 = 15kN? If so, that might be why the beer knot sling broke in the material when it hit 30kN and each side was holding 15.
I'd be interested in more tests as someone who builds arbitrarily long slings for anchors, in addition to the fixed-length of stitched slings.
Swage wire rope to embed the lead or zinc into the wire threads. Why would swaged fiber rope be different than thimbled and clamped fiber rope? You can't get the swage material into fiber? Does a swage work better with a thimble when applied to fiber rope.
The beer knot is super interesting!
can i just 1in tie webbing for my cams?? 25kn seems good enough for me?
Would be interesting to see what happens with the swage if you but a stopper knot on it.
Or with shock loading.
That beer knot was awesome and that's such a good name, water to beer is totally worth the effort. Would like to know if the point of failure was a fluke.... Also need to know what breaks first out of the rope soaked in water, beer or urine, think was Jackie Chan movie and a karate kids one where they used soaked cloth and a stick for twisting/leverage to bend steel bars.
Wet silk vs dry silk would be interesting. I think the movie was Shanghai noon. Uses wet silk to escape a prison.
The beer knot surprised me the most.
Regarding the titan loops: Are you absolutely sure that the core didn't just pull out of the sheath through knot, i.e. the core not actually breaking? In the video it kinda looks like this is what happened, but maybe that's just me.
What you see at ruclips.net/video/sOCjyVUBkGY/видео.html is exactly the benefit of settling the knot with pretensioning. The freshly-tied knot pulls through, heats up, becomes weak, and fails. The identical old knot, by virtue of having been settled in, doesn't pull through, doesn't heat up, and doesn't fail. Incidentally I'd like to see what happens if a rope loop is joined by swaging while pulled to the working load limit. I expect that in the short term it would eliminate the pull-through failure you saw, but I can't guess whether swaging under tension would weaken the rope over some period of time. A reliable protocol for swaged rope connections could be of some value in industry, and almost certainly patentable.
Apparently there has been over 20 deaths associated with the water knot. Can the fisherman knot be used with flat webbing?
I'd like to know what a 9/16 tubular sling with a beer knot can do.
I'm super curious about how that swedged rope would hold up to the drop tower.
3:08 put a stopper knot at the end that would be interesting
4:00 i surmise the modified scaffold knot survived due to the lack of friction heat like you see in the normal knot that starts slipping, the slip heat/friction cut the rope (ohh you called it too haha) make you wonder if the act of slipping itself that is responsible for most knot failures ((id never heard of a beer knot, il def start dabbling into them with stuff.. that metal clamp though,, wtf.. like really wtf. first glance and my first thought was NOOO thats for lvl 1-2 rigging gear TOPS. I will say, I was hoping for a break test of the metal clamp with a big fat stopper knot on the end to see if the clamp itself or the rope fails.
Please test construction harnesses. Like old stuff roofers are using!
The beer knot looped over a larger bend radius would be interesting.
what about a swage with a safety knot on the bite?
Be interesting to test swaged steel ropes and see it they slip in the same fashion
Please explore water knots more. I use the tied runner as my alpine draws (sue me, it’s bomber)
Beer knot-I had so many people question the safety of my beer knot runners I quit using it and went back to tying water knots
I know what you are talking about but I knew the beer knot was stronger than the water knot. I've been using it since the 80s.
What if a stopper knot was tied on the tail of the swagged personal anchor?