What happens if you tie the Alpine Butterfly Knot wrong?
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- Опубликовано: 11 ноя 2022
- Alpine butterfly knot is a midline knot that is easy to untie after it has been loaded. The problem with knots that are easy to untie, is they untie easy. We discovered while pull testing this that it slips, though at fairly high forces. We also discovered that if you tie it slightly wrong, it still works... sort of. Learn about this knot in this video and what it can do, can't do and then go have fun and use it.
See the data, references linked and read behind the scenes at www.hownot2.com/post/knots-bu...
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What is an alpine butterfly
00:32 Untie tests
01:58 History of knot
02:45 How to tie it
04:42 How strong is it
08:40 It can slip!!!
11:39 Isolating a core shot with tests
16:28 Follow through inside something that doesn't open
17:22 Break testing it tied wrong
21:53 Ring load testing
23:28 Double butterfly
25:36 Renaming the knot
You can use this as a bend like @theropeaccesschannel shows, just make sure your tails are long enough. See his video at ruclips.net/video/tRrIUybUyd0/видео.html
Regular watcher of TRAC, think I came across your via there, more interested in Rope Access these days but do bits of climbing years ago, knotwork; one of those skills that never leaves you and surprises you how often you use it outside of your main reason for using it (climbing, rope access etc). I think I came across RopeLab from here though, can't recall exactly. Keep up the great work.
I stumbled upon a knot where you make a simple loop and make yet another loop 90° offset and 180° flipped inside that loop.
This would result in 2 interconnected loops with 1 pass outside and 2 inside.
Another variation is 2 double loops interconnected in the same way
2 passes outside, 3 inside.
I'm curious if this already exists, how strong it is and how it's called
I tied it as an end loop. ruclips.net/video/ytjzBH6zqE4/видео.html
@HowNOT2 I’m sure someone has guessed already. But that’s Prusik Peak on The Temple in The Enchantments on the Alpine Lakes Wilderness. Absolutely my favorite place in the world.
@HowNOT2 What if we take the end loop and wrap it around and through the "hole" loop one more time?
It will be same knot but with *four* ropes hugged in the center loop instead of two. This theoretically might increase its strength because of a bigger bend radius as well as reduce the chance of it coming undone (not in Dyneema).
I was actually taught that the butterfly can be used to reduce shock loads on static ropes due to its tendency to slip on high loads. I would be so curious to see how it performs in that role!
Was thinking the same…. Shock absorber(s)
In alpine caving techniques, False Butterfly is recommended as a shock absorbing knot.
@@livinginyourwalls4067 I believe this is the 'incorrectly' tied knot shown in 3 at 17:48 which was thought to have a higher tendency to slip.
@@oliverbrain7693yes, with wings on opposing instead of same side
@@ohokcool Though no doubt any of the non-Alpine Butterflys could legitimately be called "false" by someone aiming for an Alpine, the False Butterfly mentioned in ACT is the one at ~19:30 with the twist-and-twist-back tying method giving non-interlocked sides, but both wings on the same side.
I don't rock climb, but you have the most educational videos out there. I can learn so much, yet still not know so much. You do a great job explaining things and I hope you continue to put effort into your channel. I might actually start climbing because you guys make it look so fun and interesting.
I don't climb either, but the alpine butterfly is often used as the loop for a trucker's hitch.
Same! Love this channel though. My cousin trad climbs and I’m slowly learning gear from you so I can get out there and enjoy it with him eventually
Not sure if I should share this, but I was literally wiping my ass when you said "right after you're done wiping". For a second I was afraid I was in a Black Mirror episode.
dude. same.
Omg… same!!
same . i was already planning my exit strategy .
I think your production value keeps getting better and better. And you keep finding interesting things with your tests. Awesome stuff 😎
My favorite knot. I've been wanting these tests. Thank you!
This is a super well-made and detailed video. Great educational and entertaining content Ryan.
So... THAT"s how I have to tie the knot from our logo... Finally a good explanation! :D
As one of those pedantic "knot guys," I appreciate this deep dive in the Phallic Knot. I look forward to more knot tests *cough* left handed sheet bend *cough*
That was the best explanation of how to tie a double alpine butterfly that I have ever seen. Thank you.
The easier way to tie the double alpine butterfly is the hybrid method. Just add an extra wrap around the hand. ruclips.net/video/DYGdvL9-P30/видео.html
I don't understand the need for either of the 2 complicated methods they showed. You can do the standard method of wrapping 3 times around your hand, but do it with both strands, and you'll end up with the same double-loop butterfly knot.
Love these knot videos. Knot history is one of my favorite things to nerd about.
Right on dude
I find the twist method something I'll never forget, best method for me.
BEAUTIFUL video! Thank you Ryan.
This was a fantastic knot video Ryan, good job!
Love the butterfly. Super easy to untie. Near the end go directional eight. Done and done
It would be really cool if you got one of those thermal cameras for you phone to see the heat generated in the rope.
Great video! Thanks for the number of details, and the great explanations.
you guys got me all tied up in knots over here. most egg sell ant video. very professional feel. great job.
this is super cool! and informative. I always assumed crossed vs not crossed we variants of the same knot (strength wise) based on real world use and that the only difference was in the way they were tied
Nailed the [edu-tainment] format on this mate 😃👍 More please 🤙
Prusik is looking great!
Great video!!! One comment, we use the Alpine Butterfly in fire service rescue all the time. We also tell our members, never wrap a rope around your hand. So we teach a different method of tying this knot. Keep up the great work!
Just out of curiosity what method do you teach? Can that method be found elsewhere on YOuTube?
The fastest way to tie it is wrapping around your hand though. Your fingers are just as likely to get munted if you have something tighten while you are doing the twist method especially when threading through. Maybe you have a different one but I know that most of our Fire and Emergency (FENZ) use the twist method but firemen usually know F.A about ropes as they are not climbers first and foremost.
You can 'wrap it round your hand' without actually getting your hand in there
Ooo Prusik Peak! Love the Core!
Thanks for the knot strength tests and bitcoin charts, enjoyed it, eager to browse through the rest of your videos.
Excellent video thanks for sharing 🙏🏻
Great video! I'm going into work late now, since I couldn't stop partway through! 😄
Going to absolutely start using this on my hammock.
I'd imagine it was probably invented multiple times throughout the ten thousand years of rope history, but we didn't keep records of it that survived. 100+ year history is hard
I've actually been using the "Wrong" alpine butterfly(like at 19:30) on purpose when I set up Lead Rope Solo anchors. Has a SS quick link in the loop, so it will never pull through. The "wrong version" is quicker to adjust for equalizing the anchor, and is even easier to untie if I take a whipper on it. If anything, the little slip is a little softer catch.
Nice backdrop, hope you enjoyed the Enchantments, great area.
Thanks Ryan! Great Job!
Prusik Peak! Great climbs.
Prusik Peak, WA. Amazing mountains. A must do for the 5.11 Apline climber!
5.7 climbers can also gain the summit by the Fred Beckey route
This is a great video but, for the love of God, why not show a pull test on the double butterfly? That is one of the most used knots for retrievable anchors and load share systems in Rope access. These are considered two independent knots in one and used in a two rope system. It is widely used throughout the industry, yet I have never seen conclusive testing on it. Help us HowNOT2! You're our only hope!!
get this dude to a million pls
Great video
I think the main benefit to some knots is being easy to check. As i see it, the only reason we use the figure 8 for tying in is that you can dress it nice and it's easy even for beginners to check (and easy to untie if i can remember which side for the loaded strand). Tons of other knots are super good enough.
Personally, I found it really hard to tell the difference between the butterfly mistakes. But seeing how the "wrong" butterflies are still strong makes me less scared (though I'll definitely do an overhand backup on a core shot now)
I need to look through and see if you've tested the wrong ways of tying a bowline as that's the one knot i've actually argued with someone about which was the "right" knot.
Bowline (out-in) and cowboy bowline (in-out) are both valid and have similar strength (and are both acceptable in marine purposes. There are different ways to lock each. Cowboy bowline is better at resisting ring loading.
I've also heard the term "Scandinavian bowline", though I don't know which variant it was referring to.
Prusik Peak! I love living so close to that range.
One of my favorite knots for sharing loads on anchor points due to the multi directional capabilities, temporarily isolating rope damage always adding an overhand as explained on min 13:21, attaching stuff etc… it is a fantastic knot, Also many different ways to tie it ( be aware of the fake one ),as any other knot and rope related stuff it will be safe if done it right. Thank you guys again for sharing such an educational content, what a great channel.
A granny knot never hurt nobody;
👀 asking which is the fake one for a friend.
@@moonshinershonor202
ruclips.net/video/84LiM1DLN4A/видео.htmlsi=-h565ZN2TEvXJ2op
criss cross is how i learned it. glad to know it doesn't matter which way you go after that. love this knot.
but only as a utility low weight haul knot. or possibly a low budget etrier thing
"Make sure you take at least 10 minutes and practice this, ideally while you're either watching this, or right afterwards when you're done wiping."
This killed me. 🤣
Mighty nice spot!! I climbed the Burgner/Stanley on Prusik Pk. circa 1979. Think it's been upgraded to 5.10. And many other area routes.
Great video 😊
Gnome Tarn. I have that same shot from climbing Prusik Peak, beautiful.
I see we agree on the name.
now I know you are GOOD!
Super fascinating stuff man
Really grateful to see the results of the last variation you tied 'incorrectly' so to speak. In the UK, I know that as a cavers knot. I often use both to link anchors together, using the alpine if they are relatively close or the cavers if there is more distance between. I would tie the cavers as a slip knot locked off with a half hitch over the eye. 🤷♂️
Love you vids, thanks for knowledge share. Happy New Year.
As a long-time UK/alpine caver (my 40th anniversary of playing around on ropes is coming up in December) , virtually every caver I know who rigs ties the true Alpine.
I have only personally experienced one person choosing to tie the non-interlocked-wings #3 as a regular rigging knot, and he was a somewhat newbie rigger I once took on a practice rigging trip.
Once, and never again.
He rigged using #3 tied in two stages (a single overhand with a loop, and another single overhand to finish), which he claimed *was* an Alpine, was faster to tie, and was easier to fine-tune knot-anchor lengths with than other ways of tying it, and which he'd been taught by some supposed instructor(*) he seemed to have some kind of hero worship thing going on with.
Politely demonstrating to him that he was wrong on all three of his claims didn't seem to affect his misplaced hero worship in the least.
To be fair, his knot might have not been meaningfully worse in terms of absolute strength, but it just *looked* really wrong under the not uncommon meaningful 3-way loading, and hanging your entire weight off knots that look wrong isn't many people's idea of fun.
(*Note: this isn't instructor-bashing - some of my friends are great caving instructors, but whoever *that* guy was, I have to wonder what his history was.)
@@davewilson4493 That's an interesting statement Dave, that you haven't seen it in all those years. I was shown it by several CIC's and a British Mountain Guide when I was in the industry full time.
Shame you only saw fit to take the person once for rigging practice, rather than choosing to put in some development time. Though I understand there could be other factors involved, some people you just have feelings about and those aren't the ones you want to rely on when people lives are at stake.
As for your opinion of his three claims, you're right it is not an Alpine Butterfly. However, I would argue that it is super adjustable especially if the anchor is a metre plus away from the equalisation point. That said, rigging a traverse line why wouldn't you use and Alpine.
I was just pleased to know that the 'Cavers Knot' as I know it was Super Good Enough 😊
Maybe it’s just cuz I’m from Washington but it’s instantly recognizable. There’s like Half Dome, the Hulk, and then Prusik in the Core. Stanley-Burgner 👌🏻
Prusik peak! What an awesome place
Prusik Peak in The Enchantments within the Alpine Lakes Wilderness (in Washington)
I was taught the twist method and have never tied this by wrapping around my hand; though I’ve always been decent with knots and haven’t really had difficulty learning new knots.
I have had the butterfly loop spontaneously show up in different ways in my life. Several times when reeling in old line to my fishing rod the memory of the line formed a coil that twisted and trapped a bight. Another time my kid was playing with some cord and asked if a loop was a knot. Mind you that they aren't able to tie their shoes, so this was a luck discovery. With this in mind, I am sure this knot has been around and used long before it was recorded in print.
Fantastic! I wish I could subscribe multiple times 😁
Nice weather at the Matterhorn 😊
always very educating and brought in a very accessible way , any chance you might want to show how knots infuence the strenght of "standard rigging slings "
Great video. Looks like watersprite lake in the background
In climbing one of the uses for the alpine is to use it as a bend, to actually to separate a damaged section of rope, especially for rappelling, at which point you'd have to pass the knot. So it slipping is important- granted at +10kn, not a force likely to generate while rappelling
You got me with the like button joke, I'm in!
Thanks for this extremely nice video! Do you have any idea what made the knot slip in some of the tests and not in others? Is there anything one can do to prevent slipping, other than putting something in the bight?
1452 looks like a "zeppelin bend" to me. a really great easy to tie knot to have in your pocket!
I did the knot exactly as you describe at 3:42 in the video and compared it with the right/wrong version at 19:48 and it doesn't look like any of them! On checking, the image you have at 19:48 is a mirror image of reality - only when the image is mirrored back again does the knot look like the one with the tick. I'm surprised nobody has noticed this.
Amazeballs video.
I use the butterfly all the time. Almost as much as the 8 and clove. Great to see its strengths and weaknesses. Also learned a new way to tie it.
Ps. Your puffie is loud. 😅
@HowNOT2 I’m sure someone has guessed already. But that’s Prusik Peak on The Temple in The Enchantments on the Alpine Lakes Wilderness. Absolutely my favorite place in the world.
huh interesting! I just used a phallic knot as my stopper with an overhand for a tagline rappel on a reepschnur hitch. I will now only be tying the double phallic.
best knot
I have no idea why I'm fascinated with just a handfull of knots.. I feel like I have the secret to the universe when I make a bowline or hitch..
Great analysis of this iconic knot.
I don't see that anyone answered you opening question ..... what's on the green screen behind you? You are in the Enchantments Permit area, likely at Gnome Tarn. Over your left shoulder is Prusik Peak, to the right, the knob is the High Priest, the jagged ridge is The Temple group. We packed into the plateau twice in the early 70',s, long before permits were required. Wish that I still had the knees to get up there again!
Yee ol' prusik peak. Enchantments are gorgeous.
My friend who did alpine rescue in south africa told me that they use alpine butterflies to isolate damaged sections of rope. He even suggested using it to combine two ropes together for a double rope rappel.
Now this is science!
Tell use with chart which knots are good as strength wise
Good info. One thing you haven't tested... The butterfly knot is not mirrored in itself. So pulling the loop to the left is different from pulling the loop to the right. The other standing part of the rope is tensioned. Care to try that sometime?
This knot makes a great bend or tied differently, an end loop.
I like knots that are:
a) easy to tie
b) easy to inspect
I never use the butterfly because it is neither. Here is a wee test to show if the butterfly is easy to inspect. Take a piece of paper and from memory draw a figure eight knot. Now from memory draw a butterfly knot. A rule of thumb could therefore be - if you can't easily draw it you can't easily inspect it.
Prusik Peak, was there last week. Specifically at the gnome tarn by Prusik.
Nice! And super nice video.
Another use for the alpine butterfly:
Isolated retrievable system.
Isolate 1 strand for rapell for a retrievable system, on a grigri, be pilot or whatever.
At the anchor with the rope through, tie a alpine butterfly on one side of the anchor, either clip a carabiner to that AND the other side of the anchor. (,Can also be done without the carabiner, thread the other side rope through)
Now you can rapell of one strand safley, and pull the other from below to retrieve the system. Used in arborism, can even be set up from below, throwing the rope over a branch with a weight.
But don't take my word for it.
Strider tree gear
ruclips.net/video/8I4LJL2dKcg/видео.html
That also shows.the alpine butterfly is a trusted stoppern knot... This could be tested! :D
Gnome Tarn with Prusik peak behind. In the core of the Enchantments!
Awesome video. Love the idea ABK suggests this knot is only 100 plus years old. Backdrop: Sundial Peak (Big Cottonwood Canyon, Utah)?
You should see how the window cleaners use this important knot. You can tie two separate lines at different anchor points and center perfectly by attaching 2 alpine knots together with a carabiner. So handy, easy to untie for sure.
I need to review all the permutations of this butterfly knot. Thanks
Thermal imaging would be interesting in real time.
I always planned I would use a prusic to pass a knot (keep one on my belt always) but I like this technique
I assume you'd still use a prussic, but you'd clip into that loop as a backup while you unclipped/moved the belay device...trusting your life to a single prussic is scary.
@@Gortmendyeah if the prusic failed I would just fall a few inches and have to catch myself with my atc it wouldn’t be ideal
thx
Nice work. At about 20 min in would you call that an overhand loop with an half-hitch backup?
Fun fact - the knot you get when the butterfly inverts during ring-loading is still a butterfly, the loop strands and the tail strands just swap places!
I know this knot as a mobius butterfly. In this form it becomes more suited to an endline knot than midline, or to create two independently loadable strands. And unlike many other loop knots it can take pretty much any loading profile if you dress it well (in-line, perpendicular, circumferential).
Prussic peak. Good fun 5.10 I did up that a year back
How does it compare to a bowline on a bite? Feel like they would perform pretty similarly in most of the tests? Maybe
Prusik peak lookin nice
I give it a like because, for the first time I see the Ashley knot number on RUclips.
I LOL’d at 11:39
Personally the way I find is easiest for students to learn is wrap one into crook of thumb, wrap two around base of fingers,third wrap between the two.pull the outside one out as long as required,take the bight and feed it under all the strands from wrist out towards the fingers.
I find it hard to describe in words how I tie knots.
For rigging in caves, for most knots, I like to measure the loop length I want, add on appropriate extra for the knot, and then use my left hand to build the knot up from the known desired base point. It keeps things where I want them to be, and works well from muscle memory even when I'm not really in a position to look at what I'm doing
For the Alpine, though I know people who do the hand wrap. I don't like it as it's hard to get the very short loops I often want, and not intuitive to me for meaningfully long loops (and sometimes I need *really* long loops).
I go for the two-twist method which works for tiny and super-long loops exactly the same way.
I hold twist the base of the knot where I want it and hold it between the base of my thumb and the bottom of my little finger with my thumb over it to hold the first twist firmly, twist again and hold that twist with my index finger, and then pull the loop behind and under my hand and push it through where my thumb is, sliding out my thumb at the same time but keeping hold of the base of the knot while I tighten so the base stays where I want it to be.
If the desired loop is somewhat long, I may need to jiggle my left index finger, and/or spread my right hand holding the loop top to widen the top of the loop and move the second crossover point further down the knot to where the crossover is easier for my index finger to catch it.
As for where your background picture was taken, that's Prussik Peak back there, and I am guessing that is Gnome Tarn in the foreground?
Me and the homies ran some laps up a route well under our collective ability, and we had three climbers in the party climb on one rope, one on each end and one in the middle clipped to a butterfly. Because of pitch length, two at a time would simulclimb for a short time. Since that day, I have always wondered what would happen if all three “directions” of the knot would be loaded if on top belay, and both climbers fell.
Prusik peak alpine lakes area Washington. My fave.
Thanks for all the great video's & info! highline use question: Could you use a butterfly knot in a backup webbing (highline setup) to make a intermittened connection? Since I have a long Parsec (120m / back up) and 2 polar 50m with loops (main)? what would be the "reduce strenght" factor to calculate the overall strenght of the webbing?
Looks like you near Prusik Peak in the Enchantments in Washington State, close to Mt. Stuart.
Is there any simulation software that can show the internal stresses and fails inside knotted ropes of various kinds?
For isolating a core-shot segment of rope, the Ashley Book of Knots recommends the Sheepshank Knot (ABK #1152-1166). In particular, ABK #1155 is described as the "safest" variation. I wonder how those knots hold up in climbing rope. I don't think I've ever seen it tested.
Isn't the sheepshank primarily supported directly by the tension in the rope? If one end comes slack for any reason it has the potential to fall apart. The sheepshank seems like a really dumb idea to use in the vertical realm.
@@climbing200 Right, but there are versions where you tie off the ends in some way. Not saying I'd use it, I was just curious how it'd hold up.
@@climbing200 I have no climbing experience but I’ve seen a toggle used to keep the sheep shank safe.
To each their own. But for me, I'll stick with a alpine butterfly or similar knot. For one, I wouldn't have to learn to tie off a sheepshank, making the knot more complex, and having more potential to have messed up, and I can save gear for later if necessary.
Don't get me wrong, I believe the sheep shank has it's purposes, but I don't think that this is it.
16:57 : The first one came out wrong, too. The wings are not on the same side. The left wing looks as if it were facing to the lake (with it's rope) but if you were to pull the legs the left wing would turn away from the lake.
This is how I just managed to tie the knot:
(with legs I mean the rope coming out of the wings)
Go in and have it as at 16:41 and then tighten the overhand knot a bit and then you arrange the leg that is already part of a finished overhand knot to the side like it would be if the alpine butterfly knot were already done. Then you see one rope going over the finished leg and around the loop (loop that goes through the carabiner). This rope already goes around and becomes the leg. Then you can create the other side by also going around the loop but in the opposite direction. After going around, tunnel the finished leg (in the center) and also dive into the overhand loop that you just created.
The last step is easier if the unfinished knot is pre-dressed and the leg is arranged as if the knot were completely done.
The Knot shown at 20 mins I have used caving and refer to it as the cavers butterfly in the UK, super easy to adjust and untie but Has to be pulled from 3 different directions to keep its integrity. For example, a hanging traverse in a cave where it is the middle bolt.
Is there an advantage to using the butterfly to separate the two strands as you did in 24:20 when compared to a clove hitch on the masterpoint carabiner? I couldn't think of any advantages that the butterfly could have.