7 minutes in and I've learned more and had things explained to me that after countless conversations with people who actually do know quite a bit suddenly make sense, thanks much man this is incredible.
I've been building crawlers for years. Your videos helped take setting up the suspension to another level. My personal crawler is four link front, one link rear and it flat works. The body stays level on obstacles and is stable at high speed. Uphill, downhill, side hill on coil overs it is very stable!
When I watched the first 2 videos years ago my head was spinning got a migraine from thinking lol then I dove in head first and it wasn't as bad as I thought thanks again for those videos and all the other tech vids you guys post
It takes a bit to understand but if you really understand the overall concepts of how everything works you can make some good educated decisions on what to do on your rig
Great video. I ordered rear TB relocation brackets a couple of weeks ago knowing they were a solid 2 months out. I was excited to get them based on what I have "heard." Now I can't freaking wait!
I run a parallel 3 link in rear. Wishbone upper and slight triangulated to lowers. Built a bent dom tube bridge truss. Jacked axle up till level driveshaft and added bump stops. Took measurements for tire full stuff too. Then measured squarely 31" and marked for mounts. My driveshaft is around 31" run length. So now have the 2 control arms and driveshaft moving parallel.
I could not get the calculator to work... so I took measurements off my Jeep and laid them out on Mylar by hand. I am a retired suspension designer, manually drawing out suspension geometry and articulation is relaxing now. Very informative video, clearly explained.
This is fantastic. Thankyou. I built a 4 link for a friend years ago, which had the lower links, central to the axle direcly in front and I had massive axle wrap issues. The diff just kept wanting to twist excessivle upwards. Moved the mounts 90° downward so that the links were underneath the axle in line with the top arms and problem solved. Id love to be able to have lower mounts in front, to reduce angle, but not sure what I did wrong initially. Had the 25% link seperation also.
@@BustedKnuckleOffRoad really....i remember years ago when i first called him "golden voice" he was going to koh and said to visit him him at the bk tent. No worries tho im still his biggest fan.... "RIOT"!!!!
Dude! THANK YOU SO MUCH! Gives me a lot to have to figure out, but it will be so worth it. I knew there was more to this that I didn't know and I want to build this SASed Jeep WK right!
Record a video of a clean slate design of a typical buggy using the 4-link calculator. Teach the ins and outs of the 4-link calculator. Use a screen recorder of sorts, and voice over? I'd watch it.
Is it possible to use the link calculator to find all these values running a front triangulated 4 link, and leaf sprung rear? If so is there any specifics other than what’s described in the videos? I have a toyota on dana 70 axles, 42’s and a full EXO for crawling. I’m looking at changing my front 4 link system for better performance while crawling through obstacles and to help reduce body roll.
I think it would be neat to get your opinions on chassis design. Not necessarily the riot chassis that y’all make but maybe an explanation on basic, important structure designs. For the guys wanting to build their own chassis with their own style, but still have a good understanding on how to make it strong/safe.
Oh that was a real “heads up” about the panhard bar - tnx. A question if I may: what about a Watt-linkage like on the Bucher Duro? How about a vid or comment about using this instead of the panhard bar? Thank you for taking the time and showing things the right way!
@@BustedKnuckleOffRoad Yup, thus my question, I can not wait for you to explore the pro's and cons - if any - of this system. Another question - if I may: From some videos about the rock racers it looks like some run a very negative caster (the steered wheels leaning "out" of a corner and not in.) is this true and if so, why?
this is absolutely great, I learned more about roll center/axis than I did in engineering school. i tried to download the 4 link calculator but did not find it on your website
I have a different scenario ,Model TT with transverse leaf springs , 126" wheel base and using model 44 and 60 axles , some of this will work but not all of the stuff your telling me will be used Roll Center will be necessary along with squat control but no coils and likely no shocks because I am way to much of a Ford Purist Great video and thanks for the input laying out dimensions that I knew I didn't know till now
Hey mate, used the calculator (v3.0) you recommended and it says for my measurements that my roll centre is 17% (roll oversteer). Just wondering if you could clarify that for me as you only speak in 0-100%. Thanks
Yeah. I had mine leveled. Hated it... Lifted the rear and unleveled it to fix it. Way better handling.. even though it's higher up ! Very counterintuitive... I like a little bit of "downward dog" in my suspension.
I know this sounds dumb but. When you measure for your roll center percentage are you measuring from the ground up to center of gravity or from the bottom link mount up to center of gravity? I'll be running 39 to 42 inch tires but with beadlocks I run them at 1 or 2 lbs air so really like a 35
I am really hoping to build a setup on my rig that can articulate on crawling but also be able to do faster driving and good cornering. I hate how the panhard bar shifts the whole diff over, I wish I could figure out a way to get rid of it while keeping all the benefits of the 4 link. Watts link seems like it would just over complicate everything.
Good video. But I do wish you had talked about the fact that lateral weight transfer still happens regardless where the roll center is. A vehicle will never "lean into" a curve. Inertia always pushes the CG to the outside. The easy way to visualize what's happening is to think of a pendulum where the CG is the weight and the roll center is the pivot. It will always move "out" when pushed. Putting the RC above the CG will just make try to go up and out rather than down and out. The problem there is that you have the geometry trying to lift the body while the weight transfer is trying to compress the suspension. Conversely, you are actively trying to lift the inside tires by trying to compress those springs while weight is being lifted off them. That's why a high CG only works at low speeds, lateral weight transfer isn't a factor then.
Or some kind of torque control to make all 4 have same ground psi if u prefect this u could rule Equalizer shaft or something they always go to the right the rut deeper on right
@@BustedKnuckleOffRoad thank you for the response yes I thank some could be in the drive line The direction it turns could make some difference in side torque love you guys I 59 would love drive one I see lines nobody tries
Another question I got : CRC - Constant Roll Center link. There's a company that fabricated it years ago already (bolt-on) , but for Long travel suspension cars the arms on the link can be fabricated longer as well as the center arm....I've read of cars with 14' of rear travel running CRC .... Question from me is Why Haven't we seen more on CRC ??
@@BustedKnuckleOffRoad Ok...thx for the reply....I'm just wondering if we can adapt it to a 14' + rear travel system.... Have a look at CRC.....I'd love to see your thoughts on it
Noob question here... but when you see a vehicle make a turn and they lift one front tire off the ground, what is normally causing that? Is that from Anti-dive? Or is that a roll center thing?
Busted Knuckle Off Road yeah kind of, I always assumed it was just from power/torque but then I’ve seen guys do it in TJs and stuff too, with stock engines. After watching your suspension videos I’m thinking it’s more in how the suspension is set up now
Umm...all those line are widely used to calculate a roll center, but it isn't the way it works. Each of the suspension links is either in compression or tension, which pull on the chassis at their attachment points. The lateral forces (we are talking roll center, so braking and acceleration aren't a factor) come through the tires and are more or less linear function of load (its not near the limits, but this is Indy, NASCAR, or F1). The front and rear are computer independently. The net is a vertical force on the body. The lateral acceleration causes weight to transfer to the outside wheels, and when the RC equal the CGH the forces in the links totally offset those forces. Lower roll centers don't. In people who do the lines for road racing and oval track cars it sometimes is a bit funny. They end calculating for the inside and outside wheels equally, while in some cases the inside wheel has no load at all (we've all seen pictures of a car on track with both inside wheels raised). This is an issue these days when even street tires exceed 1G lateral on pavement. Krawler KXs won't do that.
Hello. I can’t understand, why dose high roll center having problem with high speed bump? Roll center should makes difference with “lateral force”, because the lever effect. but shouldn’t make much difference with “vertical force” .
Lmao this is becoming my struggle trying to set up an 08 Envoy with a 3 link front and retrofitting the 5 link rear with the 1 tons Speed and climbing is difficult to attain at the same time lmao
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
7 minutes in and I've learned more and had things explained to me that after countless conversations with people who actually do know quite a bit suddenly make sense, thanks much man this is incredible.
glad it helped!
This video changed my entire view on 4 link and a lot of things just clicked !!!! Thankyou very much !!
glad it helped!
This was the one that hit it home for me. Thanks bud!
Glad to help!
I've been building crawlers for years. Your videos helped take setting up the suspension to another level. My personal crawler is four link front, one link rear and it flat works. The body stays level on obstacles and is stable at high speed. Uphill, downhill, side hill on coil overs it is very stable!
awesome glad we could help
Brilliant Jake, such valuable information to the home builder. Thanks for your time!
Your welcome sir. I hope this helps people out when they are building so they dont make the same mistakes i did
Glad it was helpful!
When I watched the first 2 videos years ago my head was spinning got a migraine from thinking lol then I dove in head first and it wasn't as bad as I thought thanks again for those videos and all the other tech vids you guys post
It takes a bit to understand but if you really understand the overall concepts of how everything works you can make some good educated decisions on what to do on your rig
@@bustedknuckleoffroadllc5060 I'm happy with how it acts on the trail so far maybe next year at koh I'll show ya guys if your around
Suspension design is super important for being happy with your build in the end
Thanks!
glad it helped and thank you for the support!
Great tech. You are the new BillAvista Jake!
Has big shoes to fill
Professor Burkey as always great job thank you for sharing your skills and knowledge keep them coming
Thanks, will do!
Great video. I ordered rear TB relocation brackets a couple of weeks ago knowing they were a solid 2 months out. I was excited to get them based on what I have "heard." Now I can't freaking wait!
Great to hear!
Greatly explained once again
Glad you liked it
I run a parallel 3 link in rear. Wishbone upper and slight triangulated to lowers. Built a bent dom tube bridge truss. Jacked axle up till level driveshaft and added bump stops. Took measurements for tire full stuff too. Then measured squarely 31" and marked for mounts. My driveshaft is around 31" run length. So now have the 2 control arms and driveshaft moving parallel.
I could not get the calculator to work... so I took measurements off my Jeep and laid them out on Mylar by hand. I am a retired suspension designer, manually drawing out suspension geometry and articulation is relaxing now. Very informative video, clearly explained.
glad it helped
This is fantastic. Thankyou.
I built a 4 link for a friend years ago, which had the lower links, central to the axle direcly in front and I had massive axle wrap issues. The diff just kept wanting to twist excessivle upwards. Moved the mounts 90° downward so that the links were underneath the axle in line with the top arms and problem solved. Id love to be able to have lower mounts in front, to reduce angle, but not sure what I did wrong initially. Had the 25% link seperation also.
Brilliant video. Well explained. Thanks !
Your welcome Aubrey, thank you for watching
Glad you enjoyed it!
I’ve been waiting a while for this. Well done!
Thank you. Glad it helped!
Glad we finally got around to getting it done
Well your still badass jake...in my book. Havnt been able to connect via koh yet but i will one day. Stay up player!
Jake is not a fan of KOH LMAO
@@BustedKnuckleOffRoad really....i remember years ago when i first called him "golden voice" he was going to koh and said to visit him him at the bk tent. No worries tho im still his biggest fan.... "RIOT"!!!!
great video! very thorough and well put together!
Glad it helped!
Good video thank you
Your welcome. Thanks for watching
Glad you enjoyed it
Love the way you teach
Jake knows his stuff
Very well explained. 🍻
Glad it was helpful!
Solid advice, as always 👍
👊🏻👊🏻 i do my best!
Glad you think so!
Thanks for all the great info, awesome series!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Dude! THANK YOU SO MUCH! Gives me a lot to have to figure out, but it will be so worth it. I knew there was more to this that I didn't know and I want to build this SASed Jeep WK right!
Glad I could help!
Record a video of a clean slate design of a typical buggy using the 4-link calculator. Teach the ins and outs of the 4-link calculator. Use a screen recorder of sorts, and voice over? I'd watch it.
Noted.
Agreed
the 4 link calc. is pretty intuitive itll make alot of sense once your start your project hands on and have some measuraments to work with
Is it possible to use the link calculator to find all these values running a front triangulated 4 link, and leaf sprung rear? If so is there any specifics other than what’s described in the videos? I have a toyota on dana 70 axles, 42’s and a full EXO for crawling. I’m looking at changing my front 4 link system for better performance while crawling through obstacles and to help reduce body roll.
not sure how you would find a rear value with leaves
Why can you still use the intersection of the triangulated links after you made them parallel? Nice explaining by the way!
Five seconds in and I’m loving it😂👌 great intro
Hahah we thought i was appropriate
Glad you like it
I think it would be neat to get your opinions on chassis design. Not necessarily the riot chassis that y’all make but maybe an explanation on basic, important structure designs. For the guys wanting to build their own chassis with their own style, but still have a good understanding on how to make it strong/safe.
Good idea, could wrap it up by showing how we use the though process to design our chassis
Oh that was a real “heads up” about the panhard bar - tnx.
A question if I may: what about a Watt-linkage like on the Bucher Duro? How about a vid or comment about using this instead of the panhard bar?
Thank you for taking the time and showing things the right way!
watts link is a different animal
@@BustedKnuckleOffRoad Yup, thus my question, I can not wait for you to explore the pro's and cons - if any - of this system.
Another question - if I may: From some videos about the rock racers it looks like some run a very negative caster (the steered wheels leaning "out" of a corner and not in.) is this true and if so, why?
this is absolutely great, I learned more about roll center/axis than I did in engineering school. i tried to download the 4 link calculator but did not find it on your website
thanks, Jake has a good way of relaying information in an easy to understand way
I have a different scenario ,Model TT with transverse leaf springs , 126" wheel base and using model 44 and 60 axles , some of this will work but not all of the stuff your telling me will be used
Roll Center will be necessary along with squat control but no coils and likely no shocks because I am way to much of a Ford Purist
Great video and thanks for the input laying out dimensions that I knew I didn't know till now
no shocks?
I’m going to buy some stuff of BKO just to thank you for the video ;)
We appreciate it!
Big like
Hey mate, used the calculator (v3.0) you recommended and it says for my measurements that my roll centre is 17% (roll oversteer). Just wondering if you could clarify that for me as you only speak in 0-100%.
Thanks
So if I have a roll center of 44” on the v3.0 calculator, does this make the calculated roll center irrelevant if I have a panhard bar? 12:15
Yeah. I had mine leveled. Hated it... Lifted the rear and unleveled it to fix it. Way better handling.. even though it's higher up ! Very counterintuitive... I like a little bit of "downward dog" in my suspension.
Right on
Could you go into more detail on suspension roll axis and roll steer? The offroad community needs to know.
sure can
I know this sounds dumb but. When you measure for your roll center percentage are you measuring from the ground up to center of gravity or from the bottom link mount up to center of gravity?
I'll be running 39 to 42 inch tires but with beadlocks I run them at 1 or 2 lbs air so really like a 35
ground
can you guys do a video on i beams? or solid front axle suspension?
What would you like to know?
High centered roll axis making a hard left turn with plenty of power will pull drivers tire up. It does happen.
How would leaf spring suspension in the rear affect roll center?
absolutely
I am really hoping to build a setup on my rig that can articulate on crawling but also be able to do faster driving and good cornering. I hate how the panhard bar shifts the whole diff over, I wish I could figure out a way to get rid of it while keeping all the benefits of the 4 link. Watts link seems like it would just over complicate everything.
double triangulate 4 link FTW
Good video. But I do wish you had talked about the fact that lateral weight transfer still happens regardless where the roll center is. A vehicle will never "lean into" a curve. Inertia always pushes the CG to the outside. The easy way to visualize what's happening is to think of a pendulum where the CG is the weight and the roll center is the pivot. It will always move "out" when pushed. Putting the RC above the CG will just make try to go up and out rather than down and out. The problem there is that you have the geometry trying to lift the body while the weight transfer is trying to compress the suspension. Conversely, you are actively trying to lift the inside tires by trying to compress those springs while weight is being lifted off them. That's why a high CG only works at low speeds, lateral weight transfer isn't a factor then.
come take a ride in one of our buggies and you will see the difference
Hey Jake this Jock Burge miss can u mount the motor so the torque will force front down in stead of right rear like side ways
Or some kind of torque control to make all 4 have same ground psi if u prefect this u could rule Equalizer shaft or something they always go to the right the rut deeper on right
sounds super complicated but possible
@@BustedKnuckleOffRoad thank you for the response yes I thank some could be in the drive line The direction it turns could make some difference in side torque love you guys I 59 would love drive one I see lines nobody tries
Another question I got :
CRC - Constant Roll Center link.
There's a company that fabricated it years ago already (bolt-on) , but for Long travel suspension cars the arms on the link can be fabricated longer as well as the center arm....I've read of cars with 14' of rear travel running CRC ....
Question from me is Why Haven't we seen more on CRC ??
Haven't ever looked into CRC
@@BustedKnuckleOffRoad Ok...thx for the reply....I'm just wondering if we can adapt it to a 14' + rear travel system.... Have a look at CRC.....I'd love to see your thoughts on it
Shock location in front of the axle , behind the axle, as well as angle?
good question. straight up in down is your best bet for shocks. Slightly angled in is fine too
Will ori struts work to improve body roll.
we recommend a sway bar and are not big fans of ORIs
can rear roll center help control roll from torque?
yes
Noob question here... but when you see a vehicle make a turn and they lift one front tire off the ground, what is normally causing that? Is that from Anti-dive? Or is that a roll center thing?
Like a Trophy Truck?
Busted Knuckle Off Road yeah kind of, I always assumed it was just from power/torque but then I’ve seen guys do it in TJs and stuff too, with stock engines. After watching your suspension videos I’m thinking it’s more in how the suspension is set up now
Umm...all those line are widely used to calculate a roll center, but it isn't the way it works. Each of the suspension links is either in compression or tension, which pull on the chassis at their attachment points. The lateral forces (we are talking roll center, so braking and acceleration aren't a factor) come through the tires and are more or less linear function of load (its not near the limits, but this is Indy, NASCAR, or F1). The front and rear are computer independently.
The net is a vertical force on the body. The lateral acceleration causes weight to transfer to the outside wheels, and when the RC equal the CGH the forces in the links totally offset those forces. Lower roll centers don't.
In people who do the lines for road racing and oval track cars it sometimes is a bit funny. They end calculating for the inside and outside wheels equally, while in some cases the inside wheel has no load at all (we've all seen pictures of a car on track with both inside wheels raised). This is an issue these days when even street tires exceed 1G lateral on pavement. Krawler KXs won't do that.
I try to explain things so the average person can I’m understand. Most people would get lost trying to understand what you just wrote
Don't want to talk over people's heads
Hey Dave your killin my buzz .... now I gotta start all over !!! LOL
how about roll center for a three link
Hello. I can’t understand, why dose high roll center having problem with high speed bump?
Roll center should makes difference with “lateral force”, because the lever effect. but shouldn’t make much difference with “vertical force” .
it unsettles your suspension and makes the vehicle want to roll
Do a video for trailing arms!
Aaaaaaand I see you have one. Always great info jake
ha yeah that is a good one
You should put up on your website with the Calc how each thing affects the vehicle. I do much better with text.
That would be a lot of information
@@BustedKnuckleOffRoad I just meant like a basic chart, higher roll center does x, lower roll center does Y.
Doberman Racing ah, maybe i can figure out how to do a blog one day.
Sure thing!
Did I miss how to find COG?
center of the crank is a good starting point
Lmao this is becoming my struggle trying to set up an 08 Envoy with a 3 link front and retrofitting the 5 link rear with the 1 tons
Speed and climbing is difficult to attain at the same time lmao
I wish he would have notated how the vehicle would handle if you were all Center sloped higher in the front and going down towards the back
Shit i chatted and no one else did!
there were a few comments LOL
@@BustedKnuckleOffRoad yea me😂😂😂
Needs more micro link geometry
we should have built a little scale model to help demonstrate
Can I come work for ya'll? Lol would be awesome
We are always hiring skilled people.
off the subject 14 bolt lockers ????????????????? option.????
We do spools and ARBs. Not a big fan of the ARBs or any of the other options out there either,...
Привіт! увімкни субтитри будь ласка🤘🇺🇦