"The Emperor was a brilliant scientist, a powerful warrior, and great psyker, but he was a terrible father..." - Roboute Guilliman I like to think that we could add to that: "And we were terrible brothers."
Ben L. I bet there were times after he was put on the Golden Throne that Emps thought to himself “I should have sent them to bed with no dinner a few times”
@Boz Vin Well I dont know if they really tried to help Konrad other than when they were ordered to help him, they just looked at him like an animal (as well as to Angron) soooo....
years ago: "let's talk about primarchs: Konrad Curze..." today: "let's theorize about primarchs: Konrad Curze..." up next: "what do primarchs eat: Konrad Curze..." bonus show: "let's cook with primarchs: Nostraman guts pie"
The next show from GW, first an anime, and a life action, the their food network crossover, cooking with Kurze. The looser is next weeks special ingredient.
Fun fact: Nostraman gut pie goes well with a goblet of Klingon blood wine, gourmets and doctors recommend it. Except for criminals, they get to eat rakt and drink chech'tluth. Here, have a cup. *A few minutes later* Yes, Mr Night Haunter, the one with the goblet.
Konrad never really fell to chaos. He betrayed big e sure. But from what it looks like in his book, it looks like his nature is order. And falling to chaos is against his very nature, he literally can’t fall to the gods of chaos. He even calls them the “false pantheon”
2 years late, but definitely agreed. Konrad turned traitorous, not chaotic. Small difference maybe, but a crucial one when characterizing him I believe.
He got angry at his visions trying to mess with him so he made sure that if he couldn’t stop the visions from getting sent then he could at least make damn sure to stop being able to see those visions.
and his iconic mount would be a De Lorean patten Speedbike outfitted with Flux Capacitor (which makes Jagatai Khan envy) with a high gothic inscribtion of "the future is what you make it! so make it a good one"
The IoM would fail to spread fast enough and intercept multiple threats to mankind therefore leading humanity to extinction or even worse fate than that.
I really like the idea of Konrad being adopted by one of the few decent rich people on Nostramo (ala Thomas & Martha Wayne) and becoming the 40k version of Batman we all KNOW we want.
The funny thing about that, someone posted a fic on Spacebattles where the Emperor was a good dad and Konrad became something of a WH40k!'60s!Batman figure. The sheer CHEESE and adorable AWESOME Konrad became in that fic makes you want to go and give canon Konrad a hug...
Arch, I would honestly prefer a theory where each of the Traitors were stopped from their fall. Tempted, but in each case someone was able to help them, or they were able to help themselves. The Imperium Triumphant.
Nah man, flip the Primarchs. Have those that were canonically loyalist fall, and those that were canonically traitor be loyal. Know there was a 4chan speculation on that, but I'm curious what Arch would think independent of that.
We're up to about 6-7 hours of straight up Conrad. I think Arch stalling on the true primarch videos is a smart move: keep the audience perpetually wanting more and they'll never leave!
What Arch says : "If I make lore video on Lorgar, it will be a very sympathetic one." What Arch does : "Lorgar is the closest thing you can find in 40k as pure evil."
Love the artwork. Just screams to me "Justice is blind, through, horrifying...but fair. All should fear me...but only the guilty should fear my wrath."
Andrew Singleton Cause ironically his philosophy cause less deaths in the great crusades than the more righteous legions, which is about the only noble part of him, his way of thinking is not the quantity of the kill but the quality of its influence that it becomes an example that makes people follow the law and imperial sovereignty. The guy want peace but only know to enforce it through terror
@@lynnusuk2092 Ok. He is able to conquer with less deaths. But is he able to keep what he conquered with less death? I don't know. Maybe maybe. Anyway, I think Justice, Peace and Virtue are about balance.
I’d love to see Loyalist Cruze react to the Inquisition(?)’s favorite phrase of “better a thousand innocents die than a single traitor escape” ! I’d also love to see how Loyalist Curze reacts to other events of the Heresy: for example, the arrest of Magnus at Prospero (I highly doubt Curze would be so quick to execution when his job was to bring an accused to trial).
Oh Curze would put the Inquisition through the wringer, just picture an Inquisitor wanting to kill an abhuman (becuz all mutants are bad lol) only to have a Night Lord come up behind him and snatching his pistol away like a parent.
"How would a Loyalist Night Haunter work?" Better parenting by Big E would do wonders *_for a start._* And for the love of the Warp, make sure he's constantly paired up with Sanguinius, if only to try to help bring out 'his better nature', because Sanguinius makes _everything_ better.
He is the imperium's lawbringer if you think about it. He punished the guilty too the extream thats what i think.but i haven't read much on the 40k lore i have only learned by arch and other reading lore.Also he has his foresight would allow to see crimes before they happen it is kinda smart how he is designed
I'm imagining Konrad killing an innocent during one of his visions and gathering his legion to put himself on trial and becoming incredulous when the one boy he first saved whips out the temporary insanity defense. by the way, would the sword that Konrad is using be a Squared of Executioner's Sword?
Also if his Leggionaries would be made aware of this problem then his bodyguards could always be with him and would either restrain him when a vision comes or would drive the civilians away so he would have no chance of committing accidental murder he'd later deeply regret.
@@semi-useful5178 Oh I imagine the bodyguard thing would happen After he'd be acquitted of the charges. It would be honestly hilarious, Konrad arguing that he is guilty while his defender hits him with the book of law and all the Night Lords just nod and say that Konrad is indeed innocent. Edit: Also now I'm imagining a Night Lord in full power armor wearing a judge's toga and that funny judge headpiece they wear.
"We have always been the Emperor's retribution....his Punishers, But this, sire....th-they will not call war, they will simply call it...Murder!" "Ohhh..two words for the same thing....I suggest you make peace with it captain, You are in my Legion now, and this. Is how Night-Lords make War."
"Horus Heresy reversed" I feel a disturbance in Warp, as if a thousand 40K theories fans shouting "should have remastered it." ...............Get the Inquisition.
One on hand it’s was the emperor fault for making him a glorified torturer On the other hand it was curze fault for not seeing a monster he was becoming
See.. the glorified torturer thing can only work as completely derogatoy outside of 40k, if you consider the crazy shit the loyalist space marines are required,in fact built precisely to deal with, like the orks or the dark eldar, you suddenly compreend that, in a universe like that a true and pure classic hero cannot truly exist and be effective, if it does on occasion, is not nearly enough to be sustanable. The Emperor was correct on creating Kurze, being right is not being good
@@pensador6953 in creation perhaps. Its everything after thats the problem. You have to actually mold your supersoldiers into super generals or you get super murder hobo"s
@@pensador6953 The problem was Kurze was never taught to be a normal person outside his role which made it impossible for him to function in his father's desired empire if things went well. His entire purpose was very poorly thought out for a long term. He also was very bad at the spirit of the law but latched onto the letter like a rat in a sinking ship. He would be terrible at actually leading a world to want to better its self. It would just lead to worlds of dead people. He also happened to be mentally unstable to start with, he was written to fall.
@@iwillbecomeimmortalordietr8506 Well on the Emps defense it gets remarkably difficult to "mold" your general when a bunch of living brain cancer blobs AKA: Chaos Gods send your generals at warpspeed, and you have to make a unexpected cruzade just to find the fuckers, AND also decide to make it even worse by having said generals get teabegged with a slew of curses from said cancer blobs, so there.
@@chakatBombshell look if Emps plan had worked humanity would be well witing it's path to salvation and evolution into a psychic species that make the eldar look like spindling baboons, with EVERTHING amplified like the eldari have been, OFF COURSE someone like Curze would be necessary,COME ON, if the eldari had a Konrad Kurze of their own, the pleasure cults would have had their balls cut off and their ability to reproduce neutered, EVER.SINGLE.SOLITARY.ONE.OFF.THEM, and the eldari woudn't have fallen, the warp wouldn't be in the shit state it is now, and the age of strife woudn't have happened, or would be VERY lessened. Curze is a necessity, not a luxury.
It is consistent with the usual changes from Latin High Gothic usual makes though. You start to notice when it's too correct. For example Noctis would stand out as such.
Domini Noctis Lex: The law of the Lord of (the) Night, sounds better to me, but keep in mind, it's not Latin, it's High Gothic, so we can't just assume the grammatical rules are the same for both, and honnestly, "Dominus Nox" sounds better while incorrect...
@@johnwilliams9179 I love the idea of Sanguinius actually falling to Slaanesh instead of Khornate. Mainly as a for Slaanesh to give the big finger to Special K
I do enjoy theorycrafting videos, particularly “alternate heresies”. It’s always kind of cool to see someone’s take on a “loyalist Angron”, a “traitor Vulkan”. Because so much could change by just the slightest twisting of fate, the flip of a coin. Because, for the most part, none of the primarchs were necessarily evil or destined for traitors. They made choices or had choices forced on them. The Angron book for example, in exploring him prior to the Butcher’s Nails and those of his legion holding to the “old ways” during his initial return, shows very clearly what they COULD HAVE been. How they not only could have stayed loyal, but could have become exemplar’s of the legions similar to how many view the Blood Angels now.
YOU'RE MAKING ME CHOOSE BETWEEN THIS AND DOOM!? YOU MONSTER! EVEN CURZE ISN'T THIS CRUEL! Edit: I don't mind you doing theory crafting episodes, I rather like it, just make sure it's clearly labeled as such.
Choose ? Why ? Both the Doomslayer and Night Haunters spend their days Ripping & Tearing, plus they are both the monsters the demons flee from. Give Kurze a super shotgun, a BFG and he is good to go.
In the 31st age, when the shadows of Empyrean first lengthened, one stood against injustice. Tormented by the maddening visions of his own mind, and fearing a future which could not be seemingly changed, he choose the perpetual path of necessity and violence. And those who felt the stinging vengeance of his blades dubbed him, The Night Haunter.
"and so the emperor explained to magnus that the warp was not all sunshine and roses" this leads to: >magnus not trying to break the web way >probably going to terra anyway >a possible sooner solution to the great rift of the heresy >a legion perfectly suited to fight the perils of the warp being directly on the front lines
NotKnightBean I have so many lovely theories of my own. It would at first seem to be very much like the dynamic between Konrad Curze and Vulcan. Though I expect the interplay between Ferrus and Fulgrim, and their closeness as brothers would create some fantastical outcomes given certain actions and circumstances.
@@philosopherunknown1292 I just wrote up a massive reply them deleted it. but to sum up: In the best case ferrus slows fulgrims descent into chaos and is able to get free. Worst case fulgrim turns him with drugs and warp fuckery. Maybe not in mind but in body. If the iron hands know ferrus is alive, then they might not suicidally charge the traitors as they did in the heresy, or they might try to mass for a suicidal charge to save their father. But if ferrus gets out, he probably would have gathered up his and the other shattered legions and made his way to terra were all three legions would have done wonders during the heresy (salamanders cqc, raven guard rear line attacks, iron hands as breach repelers and making counter pushes). also we might have seen the iron hands not become mechanicum marines, which would be nice. and no clue how he would take the codex.
@@MrFallenone that got mildly retconned though as it is later revealed that the demon only took over fulgrim for a short time after killing ferrus and fulgrim later pushed the demon off a trapped it with a painting of himself. This was shown in a short story about him following istvaan told from the emperor children top command group.
Fulgrim is the easiest. He just doesn't pick up the fucking Laer Blade and we're good. By that I mean to change things he waits for backup to dampen his Legion's casualties a bit, and another Primarch (likely Ferrus) prevents him from picking up the Laer Blade. Also kill Fabius Bile or change his character and motivations greatly.. That would also solve the Emperor's Children's greatest problems as well. If there's no brain-fucking there's no reason for them to chase combat for pleasure. And besides that Fulgrim and Ferrus were extremely close, so if the Laer Blade isn't there then there isn't too much to drive a wedge between them. If these requirements were to be met, it would seem to me that the Chaos Gods would be down a champion. And the champion with the largest 30K Legion at that.
@@docartemis2878 just have him once say thank you to his adoptive dad. then it just snowballs as he starts to feel love and acceptance and probably get the support to finish his works
The Arch Heresy, finally. You are the only WH youtuber that hasn't done one that I actually want to see do it. SO DO IT. Also I loved this theory craft, and the Art is glorious. Also can we have the contacts of the person who made it, so we can commission them?
I'd say the reason he's blind is in this reality when Konrad having grown up in the internal night of Nostramo Gazed upon Big E for the first time The shining glory of the emperor burned his eyes from his skull the afterimage forever seared into his mind. The upside of this being that now his remaining already superhuman senses have compensated to the point that they're now practically supernatural
Combined with a natural outlet by which to control his already supernatural precognition with the psychic hood. Maybe he'd be able to shift it from seeing a possible future to seeing the absolute present, making Kurze's natural stealthiness and fighting ability even scarier.
I’ve actually been trying to write a story which is based on the idea of the traitors and loyalists being switched, with the focus being around Kurze and his legion as being Loyalists under the command of Emperor Horus (Waits for the booing to stop). Anyways, I like your ideas of what a Loyalist Kurze might look like, especially with that psychic hood to block his visions. In my story, I was having him use something like an isolation tank to shield him from the visions, my thinking being in the same vein as the one used by Daredevil to basically cut himself off from the constant noise his super-enhanced hearing picks up around him while he’s sleeping. I also like the symbolism you incorporated, like the use of the justice scales and the blindfold - justice is blind, after all. But more than that, the blindfold in particular reminds me of the Demon Hunters from World of Warcraft, who blind themselves during a ritual to bond a demon to their souls so they can see demons more effectively when hunting them. Maybe blinding Kurze has the added benefit of him being able to perceive the effects of the Warp more clearly as well, and would’ve allowed him to root out corruption from his legion more effectively. Anyways man, I love a lot of your ideas too - Any chance I can use them in my story?
Konrad is my favorite too! And the Night Lords my favorite Legion both when they were loyalist and traitors. Giant Grimdark Batman will always be the best.
Your depth of thought in the character is way better than any other channel I have ever seen! Your ability to deconstruct them into their basic motivation and reasonings and use that to construct a future that would be entirely opposite, yet still in their character, is absolutely amazing! I would love more videos like this
Idea for a loyalist version: Angron. The Red Angel himself. I believe that there is only one way that the Emperor could have made him loyal. At the final battle with his slave army, the Emperor cannot teleport him away. Instead, if the Emperor stands beside him, maybe with a contingent of his Custodes as well, the tide of battle would shift. Even if every other gladiator warrior is slain, Angron and the Emperor would live. By doing this, the Emperor would gain the respect due to one who sheds blood alongside a warrior. A respect that, in the natural story of 30k, he never attained. I think that battle is the one and only point that could have changed the path of Angron.
Your right but I think the reason the Emperor didn't do that is because he wanted to take over the world as quickly as possible with as little aggravation between his Imperium and the planets rulers so the Crusade could move on to the next world. Slaughtering whole armies from multiple city-states which probably contained high ranking nobles and their families would put a strain on relations and necessitate a large garrison or even massive reconstruction if the war escalated.
@@maxpower3990 I actually agree with your point. What the Emperor did as per the original story does actually make sense. But to the mind of Angron, what makes sense and what is honorable are not always the same thing. That is a point that is shown time and time again.
6:05 Angron hated the Emperor for several reasons. One of which was that he viewed him as no different than the Nobles on his planet. On the Night of the Wolf he talks about how the people they conquered were never given a choice in if they wanted to join. It was join or die and as Angron viewed the Emperor a Slaver.
@@philosopherunknown1292 I think, if I remember correctly, that GW made them Raven Guard successors sadly... I will always and forever have them as Loyalist Night Lords though!
Ludwig Dahl, I would not completely despair though. Though I know GW officially lists certain chapters as successors of other loyalist chapters, let us not forget that GW could have a little fun with their history and P.R. as well, if you’re willing to read between the lines. I’ve always assumed GW takes on the role of Inquisitorial Historian in their own fluff, not able to state that certain chapters are descended from Traitor Legion gene-stock for fear that the Imperium at large (and the chapter in question) would lose their sh-. Indeed, The Silver Skulls, Blood Ravens, and Death Eagles if I remember that last one correctly are all stated to be descended from Loyalist stock, but......... if you’re willing to think for yourself (something not approved of in The Imperium), I’m sure you’ll come to a different conclusion. Sorry about the long winded rant, but just wanted to have some fun with fluff!
A loyalist Night Lords Legion in 40k would be so interesting. I know how i would want to run them. A legion splintered into patrol fleets mostly performing counter-insurgency and anti-piracy operations. They'd have deep ties to the Adeptus Arbites across the galaxy, to the point that every time even a squad of Night Lords visit a planet they check in with the planets Arbites and the Arbites won't tell anyone (even the Inquisition). Even tithing children into the legion through the Adeptus Arbites and other symbiotic connections. Things they'd probably have done or be known for as loyalists: -Kidnapping a nearly entire farseer council from a craftworld. -Traumatising the Tau into a genetic fear of bats. -Raiding Commoraugh multiple times, capturing Dark Eldar and taking them alive, but never to be seen again. -Having a complicated rivalry/relationship with the Harlequins. For obvious reasons. -Having the terrible relations and multiple violent encounters with the Ecclesiarchy after multiple assassinations of Ecclesiastical members, including a cardinal and his retinue on the planet Vraks. -Losing a planet to Chaos after arresting an Inquisitor, and several patrol fleets being sentenced to Penitent Crusades into the Eye of Terror as a result. -Sneaking into a Necron Tomb and destorying a C'Tan shard in a surprise attack.
I really like what you did here, I agree with most of your very logical assumptions based upon this character's lore and analysis. "Original" Konrad, despite being among the best ones conceptually, is at the very bottom of my personal Primarch list due to terrible execution in most of 30k stories - he really appears as one-sided, trivially deluded scarecrow that screams for a better writing that his concept and place in the universe's lore deserve. I will definitely be using this, slightly moderated version of Konrad in my 30k campaing that I"m going to launch for my friends. Thanks a lot for this great and coherent theory and also really good artwork!
Curze may actually be our best prove for the failings of the Emperor; because either: A) The Emperor know what Curze had become and chose not to correct it because he viewed him as useful (meaning the Emperor was most certainly not a „father“ for the Primarchs, but merely a craftsman with a toolbox.) B) The Emperor overlooked or did not notice the ways of the Night Lord; meaning he simply does not care. I‘m leaning towards A) myself; however my 30k lore isn’t not top-notch, so there may be explanations for this somewhere. Additionally, it all runs under the presumption the the Emperor is or can even can be aware of the things mentioned. Also, I‘d absolutely love to see more theory crafting in the future !
Phoenix Flames The Night Lords and the World Eaters share the title for biggest red flag of “Emps dropped the ball bigtime.” “I can repair a knight Titan just by touching it, but I won’t take this archeotech torture device out of my son’s head, even though it’s killing him.” “Oh, his entire legion started getting those things installed... meh, as long as they still fight.”
@@krism.6598 Angron would have died if they tried to get the nail out of his head and they did indeed try to stop him from installing it everywhere but never had the will or the dedication to fully go trough with it after the showdown with the wolves. I would like to state that the emperor created the primarchs as tools, fully aware of all their flaws and atributes and all fully dedicated to an aspect of war: konrad was terror, the twins were covert ops, corvus stealth incarnate ect. While i personally believe he did indeed care for some of them like his sons and had genuine feelings for them, in the end they were tools, made for a purpose and used for it. Can you truly blame him for having favorites? A lot of fathers do to and honnestly i can get why he cherised Horus or Sanguinius and left Perturabo or Kurze to themselves.
@@krism.6598 Unless the Emperor was able to magic up Angron a completely new brain that he could put in him without killing him, removing the nails while keeping him alive was impossible because they had integrated and replaced parts of his brain.
There is the theory that the Emperor fully intended to purge some of these wayward sons. Once they were no longer useful as tools of war in his name that is. Perhaps he even hoped they'd die in battle to save him the trouble. Others I suspect he planned to give purposes they would've found more agreeable post crusade. The thousands sons and iron warriors for example would've been his scholars and his builders of cities respectively, while I suspect he would've put the Blood Angels to the blade for the thirst. If the heresy never happened I fully believe the house would've still been cleaned of some rotten fruit. In fact I believe that was the ultimate purpose for the Wolves... To purge all the Emperor found distasteful in his Imperium. To be his judgement as he wiped clean the slate of his failures.
squirrel_killer The angels never would have suffered from it if Sanguinius never died. When corax visited tera to rebuild his legion, he was housed inside a complex of appartements that was made to house each one of the primarchs post great crusade. Now we may never tell what would have happened had lorgar not been a fucking pussy, but the emperors least favorite sons might have gotten the boot. Im thinking Angron, maybe Kurze or even Lorgar if he got to zealous. I think only the problematic ones would get "purged", mortarion for exemple while not very usefull outside of war wasnt a problem to have around aside from his disgust for the warp since he kep to himself.
Feedback: love this, love it. This is excellent fanfiction right here. Would love to see more if you're so inclined. The art's great, incidentally. So many neat details. Hell, I wouldn't mind hearing more about this chapter. =D I can see how Konrad fits into this most readily, but it'd be interesting to see the others as well! I'm very curious how the canonical Loyalists might fall to Chaos also.
That picture of Konrad truly embodies 'Night Lord'. Your explanation of the elements was great. This loyalist version would have some interesting interactions with his brothers, perhaps one or two even greatly valuing his company and seeking his council because of how nuanced it would likely be from a brother primarch who walked such a particularly harsh road.
this was great arch! i do 40k RPs with my friends and do 'what if' senarios or world states and this was just perfection. i love the theroy craft with relevaence to existing lore. please make more
I really enjoyed it, I recently saw a theory craft from MajorKill on how to fix the end times for fantasy. Really fun what if scenarios. All hail Arch keep up the great work as always.
I reckon this side project of yours could be one of the best ideas you've had in a long time Arch, very clever. I highly recommend you keep it up, but also stick to what you have been doing for the most part.
I think theory crafting is fun. I foresee a void in this type of engagement with 40k, considering 40k theories will be producing less content, so you’re getting into it at the right time.
IF you can do it with a series of logical steps, as in "keep the asspulls to a minimum." I liked this, and would like to see it as a regular "What If" series. Konrad is easily the most tragic of the traitors. It didn't have to happen. All it would have taken to avoid it is just a few minor differences. For any of the traitors. If Magnus wasn't so pigheadedly convinced he knew better than the Emperor. If Russ had just double-checked his orders. If the Emperor had been a bit more open, and a better leader, none of the primarchs would have felt that killing him was a good idea. ...Anybody else feel that Games Workshop-that-was is far better at writing fluff then Games Workshop-that-is?
Magnus, Angron and even Fulgrim were far more "innocent" than Konrad. Him having guilt knowing he was in the wrong makes it all the worse. He also left behind arguably the most evil chaos legion to cause suffering for the sake of it.
@@legionofthedamned157 the Emporers Children are nowhere near the worst legion, they just fell further than the others who where already fucked up (not including Magnus) and yes Lorgar is a rat.
i think a crucial moment would be the boy, if he realized that a stab to the chest would be impossible to harm him, and took him in to be his follower, he too would learn to be a person, and that would be enough. that could be the only change it took I think
I loved this video. It was quite interesting and frankly the ideas you came up with are worthy of being created into a full fledged what if novel series. I really do hope you continue this series in the near future and even perhaps connect the what ifs together and have these altered characters interact with each other.
I recently read they are teasing that maybe ALL the primachs will return to the setting. I would fucking love warp entity reborn Konrad and Ferrus, two headless "Emperor's Demon" Primarchs and Wulven Leman coming out of the eye of terror to lay down the law.
Please do continue with this kind of videos! It was great, and I'd love to see a loyalist Perturabo and a loyalist Lorgar. I'd also be very interested in seeing how a traitor Dorn and a traitor Guilliman would be like!
"Aristocrat of the night, rather than a slinking monster." Such an awesome quote! I would love to see a Horus Heresy reversal series with the roles reversed!! There are so many avenues that could take!
I honestly love this! This is they kind of "waht If" that I personaly enjoy because you don't retcon everything instead you just take key elements of theire life and how could things turned out If they chose A instead of B.
I can see in a universe where they stay loyal Nostramo giving up as a tithe to the empire a particularly nasty version of adeptus arbites Got a planet with a nasty level of crime that's gotten to the point it's severely affecting tithes. Send in a regiment of Nostramo arbites and watch the crime rate drop in real time
Definitely don’t mind this sort of content, your video on recreating traitor legions as new chapters is one of my favorites. As long as you point out it’s a theory, go for it.
Konrad needed to learn one thing. As Sara Conner learned - "No fate but what we make." Sara could not stop Judgement Day and Skynet. But, she could change the when, the how and thereby change the outcome of the rise of Skynet. Konrad may not have been able to escape the destinations of his visions. The Emperor said something like that. But, he can change the journey getting there. By dictating the journey, he may still arrive at the terrible places he saw,. but he can change so many other things in fate by dictating the journey to get there and change it as he likes.
Artwork makes me think he's Arthas' and Illidan's lovechild...am I supposed to? Personally Arthas' choice at Stratholme always felt right to me, but honestly War3 never grew on me. So I don't remember if Illidan fits as well.
This was an awesome video Arch, I really thoroughly enjoyed it, I love how you really balanced out the arguments. I would love to hear a series on all the Primarchs Loyal and Chaotic,...for instance what could of realistically happened for Dorn to fall to Chaos, or could Angron of been saved?.....great video Arch
A part of me have always wondered what a perfect galaxy would look like. For example, we know that Magnus most likely would act as a lightbulb for the Imperium. But Lorgar? Mortarion? Angron? We're they simply tools to conquer the galaxy, to be disposed of as final victory was declared? My mind wanders elsewhere. I am no longer here.
They’d probably be put in cryogenic sleep or killed cause they’re all tools in the end except for magnus he’s is needed until they figured how to traverse the web way like the eldar anyways
Angron in an ideal world would likely have been the Warrior-Champion of the Imperium. In his early years Angron showed incredible loyalty to his followers despite the Butcher’s Nails in his head. Even going so far as to refuse to join the Emperor so he could join his men in a suicidal last stand. In the end Emps was forced to teleport Angron off the planet this caused an eternal rift between them. Without any of that animosity and lacking the Nails I think Angron while lacking in ability as a general compared to his brother was much more of a warrior. Savage and brutal like Russ but skilled with all weapons to the degree Sanguinus was with a sword he would have been the unmatchable Warrior-Champion of the Imperium dedicated to her citizens to his dying breath but not the Emperor...
These are my assumptions: For Lorgar you really only need to look at what his Legion, the only one to come into being with a name, was used for. The Imperial Heralds were well known for their zealotry of the Imperial Truth and the great lengths they went to in order to ensure that religion was stamped out. Reading books page by page for any hint of superstition or witchcraft. So where does that leave Lorgar? Simple, Lorgar would be the one who spread the Imperial Truth, he would be its preacher, its propagandist, the one that ensured orthodoxy and that humanity never falls back into its past. To use Inquisitorial terms he and his Legion would be the Ordo Hereticus, but be about the Imperial Truth. The Dusk Raiders are not too different from the Death Guard that followed them, endurance and attrition warfare. However we must look at how destructive they were in the Crusade. To humans they gave terms of honorable surrender. But to the alien, the mutant, and the humans who refused the terms? No quarter was given and absolutely everything was destroyed by them. So I would assume Mortarion and his sons would have been a pillar of the Imperium, a pillar of the purity of mankind, the hunter of the hidden xeno, the rebel, and the mutant, the Legion that would be called in when something had to be absolutely and utterly eradicated. Essentially the Inquisition's Ordo Mallus and Ordo Xenos but with more Astartes and more sane. I don't know about the War Hounds (World Eaters) but given Angron's interactions with the gladiators and natural charisma even with his brain crippled I think Angron could have become a champion of the common man. Humanity always needs heroes and Angron would have been able to connect to all Imperial citizens and become that hero.
Since we now know that Guilliman _DID_ speak with Him, I wonder if the "Primarchs were just tools" was just Big E. rambling, having lost His humanity and/or His sanity. That would make me a bit depressed... :(
If I had a decent mic setup and recording room. everyone would love to watch a livestream of me and Arch screaming at each other about The Emperor's pre-corrupted plans. how all of the known Primarchs would of been if they were shaped by their father and not their home planets. along with the true roles the Legions where designed for. Ex1. Mortarion was always meant to burn worlds and clean them of life. a useful tool when taking green skin worlds or sectors. Ex2. The Night Lords are a specialist tool like a flame thrower or meltagun. They where designed to bring justice and order to the under hives after the Great Crusade, and not a terror weapon.
I love it, Arch. Intriguing, analytical, well researched content that's also unavailable anywhere else - there isn't really a lorebook for a loyalist Night Haunter now is there? More of this, I say.
I enjoyed this episode. I can't speak for everyone else but I kind of like the idea of alternate history of the primarchs. Makes me wonder what Angron would have been like if he had never been found. But instead grew up in the wilderness watching the civilization from the distance. And never had those spikes stuck into his skull. How would things have been different? What would he have done. How would he have moved and made his choices? And most importantly of all where would those choices have led him? Would he still be a half mad raving monster or would he have become something else? Would he have become a successful Spartacus from the Shadows? Everyone would probably think the most obvious choice for an alternate history would be Magnus. Yes Magnus is an arrogant and egotistical know-it-all. However his entire turning against the emperor was hinged on one event. Instead of putting together a fleet with his sons and going to the capital world he tried to project himself there individually. He knew that Horus had turned against the emperor. It would have been entirely reasonable for him to have made the choice to gather his military forces and go and support of his father. He could have brought the warning with vast armies of soldiers. That's obvious as a choice that would have changed his history. What would he have done when he found out his father was working on a human webway project? Maybe instead of the emperor having to hold back hordes of demons and fight Wars in that web way he could have done it? Maybe Magnus could have sat the throne instead of Malcador? I think the emperor would have put his whiny little know-it-all psychic but to use in such a way that would prove that he did not know as much as he thought he did. "But that's just my opinion." Another interesting one would have been Papa Smurf himself. He was created to be an Empire Builder. That's his whole purpose and reason for existence. That does not mean that he had to be a good Empire Builder. Or let me rephrase it a builder of the Empire of the good. If he was found and raised by somebody else he could have grown up and become an Empire Builder in the fascist sense. I could see armies of blue swastika clad minions marching in Conquest of 500 worlds with their little golden toothbrush mustache wearing 9 ft tall Papa Smurf. All while marching to the theme of" la la la." What about Mortarion? What if the emperor had not interfered in his attempt to kill his adopted father? What if he was able to reach down deep into one of his Primark hearts and pull out the last little bit of strength needed to make that last lunge and take out his adopted father? What are the consequences of emperor appeared and instead of fighting his battle for him took him to his ship and gave him medical treatment and cleansing him of the toxins and poisons after he had successfully completed his task. How would that have changed him. A big part of his turning against the emperor could be argued the stem from his failure. His self perceived weakness and inadequacies. After all he's the one that failed to achieve his goal because he wasn't strong enough to withstand the poisons and toxins. But if he had pulled out that last little sliver of strength just enough to slay his mutant adopted father and saved his world even if it cost him his life to have his life saved by the emperor after he had completed his task how would that change the perspective?
My take on Konrad. I would have loved to hear each torture he leaned on the street of Norstromo from the people he consumed. Konrad wasn't a judge. He was like a mob boss who cowed the planet into complices though fear.
Konrad: *gets 4 videos from Arch*
The other Primarchs: *Why do you hate me Father?*
*4. He did one before the latest round based on Curze's old lore
@@RandomCommentDuedammit I forgot about that one
I bet you he'll do Sanguinius next (Arch's favourite Legion, so he's probably Arch's favourite Loyalist primarch)
O no they are all becoming Angron's and Perturabo's!!!!
Lorgar: "At least I did ONE thing right!"
"The Emperor was a brilliant scientist, a powerful warrior, and great psyker, but he was a terrible father..."
- Roboute Guilliman
I like to think that we could add to that: "And we were terrible brothers."
Ben L. I bet there were times after he was put on the Golden Throne that Emps thought to himself “I should have sent them to bed with no dinner a few times”
@@chrishopkins209 "If only they hadn't been kidnapped, I suppose showing their pictures to perverted demonic gods WAS a bad ideal...damn."
@Boz Vin Well I dont know if they really tried to help Konrad other than when they were ordered to help him, they just looked at him like an animal (as well as to Angron) soooo....
Somebody reads Larry Correia
@Boz Vin Sure but they were also horrible to one another.
years ago: "let's talk about primarchs: Konrad Curze..."
today: "let's theorize about primarchs: Konrad Curze..."
up next: "what do primarchs eat: Konrad Curze..."
bonus show: "let's cook with primarchs: Nostraman guts pie"
I'm beginning to suspect some bias, but it's surely my imagination.
@JoeRingo118 Well i guess its now a bit clearer what dakimura cover arch would choose, if he would buy such a pillow ...
Konrad Curze eats criminals and shits justice
The next show from GW, first an anime, and a life action, the their food network crossover, cooking with Kurze. The looser is next weeks special ingredient.
Fun fact: Nostraman gut pie goes well with a goblet of Klingon blood wine, gourmets and doctors recommend it. Except for criminals, they get to eat rakt and drink chech'tluth.
Here, have a cup. *A few minutes later* Yes, Mr Night Haunter, the one with the goblet.
Konrad never really fell to chaos. He betrayed big e sure. But from what it looks like in his book, it looks like his nature is order. And falling to chaos is against his very nature, he literally can’t fall to the gods of chaos. He even calls them the “false pantheon”
2 years late, but definitely agreed. Konrad turned traitorous, not chaotic.
Small difference maybe, but a crucial one when characterizing him I believe.
@@Blaze4364 10 months late.
......yeah
Actually, I think ge may have been born chaos.
He was messed with in the gestation pod. Birthed believing in chaos's plan.
40K Theories: "I'm taking a little break."
Arch: "Time to fill a niche!"
Shame Remleiz and Arch have never done a collaboration. I’d love them to do one.
maybe they could make this theory vids together i think it would be a nice and interesting discussion on each of the primarchs
Chaos would never allow them to collaborate. It would spell the end of GW. Still didn’t mean we can’t try!
Inquisitor Arch of the Ordo Theoreticus... Cool.
@@TheExpendableGuard
Nah man, inquisitor Arch of the order weebo
I love how Curze, the dark judge has a blindfold, because justice is blind.
Same
Don't they all cut eyes out? I thought it was a rite of passage for them.
He got angry at his visions trying to mess with him so he made sure that if he couldn’t stop the visions from getting sent then he could at least make damn sure to stop being able to see those visions.
Title for the series:
"From Thorns to Laurels. Tales of what could have been."
Ooo! I like that one!
@@TronTuborg thanks!
I would think it would be hilarious if arch said in the Vulcan video he was infected by Korn lol
As a joke unless it actually can make sence without it being like what if the 1st time he saw blood he became abandon
@@James-ir7om No it should be Nurggle cause hugs
Loyalist Conrad: "The future's not set. there's no fate but what we make for ourselves"
Terminator, Batman, Judge Dredd all in one. Epic
He'd basucally be a mix between Sanguinius and Batman.
💀
and his iconic mount would be a De Lorean patten Speedbike outfitted with Flux Capacitor (which makes Jagatai Khan envy) with a high gothic inscribtion of "the future is what you make it! so make it a good one"
"What if the Emperor had not left his sons to rampage across the galaxy Galaxy without supervision" .........naw.
Electronic Corgi well, they technically were adults...
@@JohnWhiteHereYes but stunted adults.
I was a bit busy, you know. Single-parenting ain't that easy.
The IoM would fail to spread fast enough and intercept multiple threats to mankind therefore leading humanity to extinction or even worse fate than that.
@@alpinewolf7751 Silence, corpse-god.
I really like the idea of Konrad being adopted by one of the few decent rich people on Nostramo (ala Thomas & Martha Wayne) and becoming the 40k version of Batman we all KNOW we want.
The funny thing about that, someone posted a fic on Spacebattles where the Emperor was a good dad and Konrad became something of a WH40k!'60s!Batman figure. The sheer CHEESE and adorable AWESOME Konrad became in that fic makes you want to go and give canon Konrad a hug...
@The shy one What is this fic called? It sounds amazing!
@@TheTrueAdeptWhats it called? Sounds fun
@@ironduke5058if the emperor a good dad
Arch, I would honestly prefer a theory where each of the Traitors were stopped from their fall. Tempted, but in each case someone was able to help them, or they were able to help themselves.
The Imperium Triumphant.
Than we wouldnt have grimdark, spiky bois, and xenos XD
Nah man, flip the Primarchs. Have those that were canonically loyalist fall, and those that were canonically traitor be loyal. Know there was a 4chan speculation on that, but I'm curious what Arch would think independent of that.
This would be awesome.
@@ee822 I think that for some of the primarchs it's a practical impossibility for them to turn traitor.
@@p.i.staker886 yeah, agree. Can't really see Papa Smurf turn traitor, The Fabulous Hawk Boy would require some serious tweaks to his story as well.
What Arch says: "I want to make lore videos in the primarchs"
What Arch dose: Almost exclusively makes videos about Konrad Curze.
We're up to about 6-7 hours of straight up Conrad. I think Arch stalling on the true primarch videos is a smart move: keep the audience perpetually wanting more and they'll never leave!
TrekkieLineman And where’s the Imperial Armor series? And what about the Star Wars lore?
Well Conrad has Split persenaletys so in a way Arch actually Made Videos about difrent Primarchs
@@charlesdexterward4726 That and he has undergone retcons so Arch is technically just talking about different Primarchs who have the same name.
What Arch says : "If I make lore video on Lorgar, it will be a very sympathetic one."
What Arch does : "Lorgar is the closest thing you can find in 40k as pure evil."
Title "If there was an Alfred in Nostramo"
Right before Konrad goes on patrol...
Alfred: Might I pack you a lunch sir?
Konrad: I'll get drive-thru.
@@creedrichards137 Groxdonald's employee: "Here's your o-"
Konrad: *sighs and hands over the cash and takes his happy meal* thank you, ma'am.
or ''What if Space batman had a Robin''
Love the artwork. Just screams to me "Justice is blind, through, horrifying...but fair. All should fear me...but only the guilty should fear my wrath."
"I can smell your crimes citizen"
Loyalist fulgrim almost happened! He almost blew Horus’ fleet out of the void before a certain dick bag brought him a deamon sword
...And fulgrim's dumb ass was just like, " yeah okay I definitely need this cool sword I found for this void battle, thanks! ".
@@bradbrobst5118 whats fucked up is he didnt even remember asking for it to begin with.
Also, we have Fulgrim's clone.
The Emporer could have warned his sons about deamons or just explained the basics of chaos to them.
@@joevines3428 or hell, just give them more attention and fatherly love.🤫 but that's not why we're here.
I realize what this Loyalist night haunter could bring... LAWYER MARINES!
Their battle cry would be "Objection!"
OBJECTION XENOS!
Chaos Space Marines: Here's my counterargument°!
Upon their battle barge "Nullum Poena sine Lege" the Lawyerist Night lords embark on their Crusade for reasonably priced justice!
Having marines as super arbites would be neat
Ah Konrad. I like his story. He's such an interesting character.
How? He is in my view the edgelord batman that murders at the drop of a hat. He is flat one note and screaming.
How would you call him interesting?
Andrew Singleton Cause ironically his philosophy cause less deaths in the great crusades than the more righteous legions, which is about the only noble part of him, his way of thinking is not the quantity of the kill but the quality of its influence that it becomes an example that makes people follow the law and imperial sovereignty. The guy want peace but only know to enforce it through terror
Ave Dominus Noctis
@@lynnusuk2092 Ok. He is able to conquer with less deaths. But is he able to keep what he conquered with less death? I don't know. Maybe maybe. Anyway, I think Justice, Peace and Virtue are about balance.
I’d love to see Loyalist Cruze react to the Inquisition(?)’s favorite phrase of “better a thousand innocents die than a single traitor escape” !
I’d also love to see how Loyalist Curze reacts to other events of the Heresy: for example, the arrest of Magnus at Prospero (I highly doubt Curze would be so quick to execution when his job was to bring an accused to trial).
he proably be the judge at nicea as that was his purpose
Oh Curze would put the Inquisition through the wringer, just picture an Inquisitor wanting to kill an abhuman (becuz all mutants are bad lol) only to have a Night Lord come up behind him and snatching his pistol away like a parent.
@@omegawilliam95s36 _Mechanical Hiss_ "NO! Bad Inquisitor!"
..eh. A single traitor can, and often does, do far more harm than murder a thousand innocents.
"How would a Loyalist Night Haunter work?"
Better parenting by Big E would do wonders *_for a start._*
And for the love of the Warp, make sure he's constantly paired up with Sanguinius, if only to try to help bring out 'his better nature', because Sanguinius makes _everything_ better.
Yeah I remember that Konrad didn’t have anything bad to say about Sanguinius in his novel.
He is the imperium's lawbringer if you think about it. He punished the guilty too the extream thats what i think.but i haven't read much on the 40k lore i have only learned by arch and other reading lore.Also he has his foresight would allow to see crimes before they happen it is kinda smart how he is designed
You are a Scholar and a Gentlemen good sir
Sanguinius also had better understanding of the fickle nature of his own prophetic powers and could've shared that understanding with Curze.
Look up the Dornian Heresey, there is also a few other "alternative hereseys" that try to switch thing around.
I'm imagining Konrad killing an innocent during one of his visions and gathering his legion to put himself on trial and becoming incredulous when the one boy he first saved whips out the temporary insanity defense. by the way, would the sword that Konrad is using be a Squared of Executioner's Sword?
That would make it more interesting
Also if his Leggionaries would be made aware of this problem then his bodyguards could always be with him and would either restrain him when a vision comes or would drive the civilians away so he would have no chance of committing accidental murder he'd later deeply regret.
@@HubiKoshi
This is true, but not as entertaining to me as an obscure legal defense that applies perfectly to Konrad.
@@semi-useful5178 Oh I imagine the bodyguard thing would happen After he'd be acquitted of the charges. It would be honestly hilarious, Konrad arguing that he is guilty while his defender hits him with the book of law and all the Night Lords just nod and say that Konrad is indeed innocent.
Edit: Also now I'm imagining a Night Lord in full power armor wearing a judge's toga and that funny judge headpiece they wear.
@@HubiKoshi
Well now I what to harass ritualist to draw next.
"We have always been the Emperor's retribution....his Punishers, But this, sire....th-they will not call war, they will simply call it...Murder!"
"Ohhh..two words for the same thing....I suggest you make peace with it captain, You are in my Legion now, and this. Is how Night-Lords make War."
"Horus Heresy reversed"
I feel a disturbance in Warp, as if a thousand 40K theories fans shouting "should have remastered it."
...............Get the Inquisition.
The Dornian/Guilliman/Sanguine Heresey Intensifies.
@@Marinealver really this again oh well call me to see guilliman get his ass kicked again
Just wanna know is there any possible way for lorgar to not be a traitor but a loyalist?
@@tacticalcannonfodder7369 Yeah kill his ballsack of a dad, the adopted one not the shiny one
@@Lakefront_Khan And Fuck Erebus too!
I'd like to see the "Traitors as Loyalists" and "Loyalists as Traitors" series.
The Theoreticus Heresy
@Boz Vin I would also say looking up the fanfic ‘The Roboutian Heresy’ is also worth a look
What I REALLY want to see the results of if you swapped everyone’s home planets
Would a traitor Vulkan even be posible?
@@romeobelisario3190 Imagine if Angron was sent to a peaceful planet, growing up to be a very aggressive farmer.
Arch: *does a video theorizing about how Konrad could have gone loyalist*
Me who watches Arch and 40ktheories: Is this a crossover episode?
unfortunately, Remleiz and Alfabusa hate Arch
@@flyboy6392 It is their loss for being so narrow-sighted.
@@NodDisciple1 Agreed, glorious battle-brother, the Alfa Legion could benefit greatly from someone as great as loremaster Arch!
@@flyboy6392 Alfa does?
@@flyboy6392 any idea why they hate Arch?
One on hand it’s was the emperor fault for making him a glorified torturer
On the other hand it was curze fault for not seeing a monster he was becoming
See.. the glorified torturer thing can only work as completely derogatoy outside of 40k, if you consider the crazy shit the loyalist space marines are required,in fact built precisely to deal with, like the orks or the dark eldar, you suddenly compreend that, in a universe like that a true and pure classic hero cannot truly exist and be effective, if it does on occasion, is not nearly enough to be sustanable.
The Emperor was correct on creating Kurze, being right is not being good
@@pensador6953 in creation perhaps. Its everything after thats the problem. You have to actually mold your supersoldiers into super generals or you get super murder hobo"s
@@pensador6953 The problem was Kurze was never taught to be a normal person outside his role which made it impossible for him to function in his father's desired empire if things went well. His entire purpose was very poorly thought out for a long term. He also was very bad at the spirit of the law but latched onto the letter like a rat in a sinking ship. He would be terrible at actually leading a world to want to better its self. It would just lead to worlds of dead people.
He also happened to be mentally unstable to start with, he was written to fall.
@@iwillbecomeimmortalordietr8506 Well on the Emps defense it gets remarkably difficult to "mold" your general when a bunch of living brain cancer blobs AKA: Chaos Gods send your generals at warpspeed, and you have to make a unexpected cruzade just to find the fuckers, AND also decide to make it even worse by having said generals get teabegged with a slew of curses from said cancer blobs, so there.
@@chakatBombshell look if Emps plan had worked humanity would be well witing it's path to salvation and evolution into a psychic species that make the eldar look like spindling baboons, with EVERTHING amplified like the eldari have been, OFF COURSE someone like Curze would be necessary,COME ON, if the eldari had a Konrad Kurze of their own, the pleasure cults would have had their balls cut off and their ability to reproduce neutered, EVER.SINGLE.SOLITARY.ONE.OFF.THEM, and the eldari woudn't have fallen, the warp wouldn't be in the shit state it is now, and the age of strife woudn't have happened, or would be VERY lessened. Curze is a necessity, not a luxury.
I would love to see a video of loyalist Konrad passing judgement on Horus. Those two going into a full on battle against each other would be epic!
"Dominus Nox Lex" just means "Lord Night Law". It should read "Dominus Noctis Lex" - "(The) Lord of the Night (is the) Law".
Latin equivalent of Chinese "Chicken noodles" tattoos?
It is consistent with the usual changes from Latin High Gothic usual makes though. You start to notice when it's too correct. For example Noctis would stand out as such.
Hey, when was the time where GW got their languages right? xD
Domini Noctis Lex: The law of the Lord of (the) Night, sounds better to me, but keep in mind, it's not Latin, it's High Gothic, so we can't just assume the grammatical rules are the same for both, and honnestly, "Dominus Nox" sounds better while incorrect...
This is 40k Latin so it may as well say Dumbinam Nocks Leaks
If there is alternative art of the primarchs that are factionflipped, I'd say yes please, more.
A traitor sanguinious would be interesting
@@johnwilliams9179 I love the idea of Sanguinius actually falling to Slaanesh instead of Khornate. Mainly as a for Slaanesh to give the big finger to Special K
Oh boy, last time I was this early the Necrontyr were still alive
I do enjoy theorycrafting videos, particularly “alternate heresies”. It’s always kind of cool to see someone’s take on a “loyalist Angron”, a “traitor Vulkan”. Because so much could change by just the slightest twisting of fate, the flip of a coin. Because, for the most part, none of the primarchs were necessarily evil or destined for traitors. They made choices or had choices forced on them. The Angron book for example, in exploring him prior to the Butcher’s Nails and those of his legion holding to the “old ways” during his initial return, shows very clearly what they COULD HAVE been. How they not only could have stayed loyal, but could have become exemplar’s of the legions similar to how many view the Blood Angels now.
A "Traitor Vulcan"....
.
.
.
.
...wow...those are two words I'd never wanted to hear, ever.
RedMageNeko that or simply make the planet that enslaved him chaos worshippers.
@@michelveilleux1275 He'd basically do a Magnus and turn for the good of mankind. Or so he would think... :)
Well, you already have Remleiz for the Dornian Heresy, and Tactica Imperialis for the Sanguinian Heresy! x)
@@Archon3960 Well yeah, but..."TRAITOR VULCAN"!!!!! You cant tell me you yourself didn't shake at reading that.
YOU'RE MAKING ME CHOOSE BETWEEN THIS AND DOOM!? YOU MONSTER! EVEN CURZE ISN'T THIS CRUEL!
Edit: I don't mind you doing theory crafting episodes, I rather like it, just make sure it's clearly labeled as such.
Choose ? Why ? Both the Doomslayer and Night Haunters spend their days Ripping & Tearing, plus they are both the monsters the demons flee from. Give Kurze a super shotgun, a BFG and he is good to go.
@@KaiserAfini I agree! why not both!?
I'm just watching while it downloads
In the 31st age, when the shadows of Empyrean first lengthened, one stood against injustice. Tormented by the maddening visions of his own mind, and fearing a future which could not be seemingly changed, he choose the perpetual path of necessity and violence. And those who felt the stinging vengeance of his blades dubbed him, The Night Haunter.
If the title of the video doesn't clearly label this as a theory, i dont know what else to tell ya chief.
Arch: "A loyalist Night Haunter..."
Me: "Ya sanababish, I'm in"
You forget Magnus! Now that is a man with regrets!
"and so the emperor explained to magnus that the warp was not all sunshine and roses"
this leads to:
>magnus not trying to break the web way
>probably going to terra anyway
>a possible sooner solution to the great rift of the heresy
>a legion perfectly suited to fight the perils of the warp being directly on the front lines
@Cure4Living Then you clearly have not read any of his Horus Heresy books...
My favorite primarch! A thousand sons has still been my favorite hh book so far.
@@Matt-oj2kl I agree! That book is still the best book in the Horus Heresy, rivaled perhaps by The "lost and the dammed"
Ah, I see you're men of culture as well.
Now for the next logical step in this series: Traitor Dorn.
I'll wait.
YES YES, GOOD ARCH-THING MAKES MORE CURZE VIDEOS, YES YES
The Skaven have infiltrated the Night Lords?
They are proving to be more insidious than the Alpha Legion.
@@Marinealver I am Alpha-rat Yes Yes
@@xazelnighthaunterfanboy975 NEVER ENOUGH DOOMWHEELS!!!
He is blindfolded here.
Because, you know...
Justice is blind.
What about if ferrus manus was captured by fulgrim instead of killed?
That would be a neat theory.
NotKnightBean I have so many lovely theories of my own. It would at first seem to be very much like the dynamic between Konrad Curze and Vulcan. Though I expect the interplay between Ferrus and Fulgrim, and their closeness as brothers would create some fantastical outcomes given certain actions and circumstances.
@@philosopherunknown1292 I just wrote up a massive reply them deleted it.
but to sum up:
In the best case ferrus slows fulgrims descent into chaos and is able to get free.
Worst case fulgrim turns him with drugs and warp fuckery. Maybe not in mind but in body.
If the iron hands know ferrus is alive, then they might not suicidally charge the traitors as they did in the heresy, or they might try to mass for a suicidal charge to save their father. But if ferrus gets out, he probably would have gathered up his and the other shattered legions and made his way to terra were all three legions would have done wonders during the heresy (salamanders cqc, raven guard rear line attacks, iron hands as breach repelers and making counter pushes).
also we might have seen the iron hands not become mechanicum marines, which would be nice.
and no clue how he would take the codex.
@@notknightbean The only problem is there was no Fulgrim at the time of their fight. The demon from the sword had control of Fulgrims body.
@@notknightbean I'd hopoe Ferru would enter Noctis Labirynth then in search of the way of offing Horus. Hilarity ensues right after.
@@MrFallenone that got mildly retconned though as it is later revealed that the demon only took over fulgrim for a short time after killing ferrus and fulgrim later pushed the demon off a trapped it with a painting of himself. This was shown in a short story about him following istvaan told from the emperor children top command group.
Alpahrius’ what if: “Gah, Alien!” *Blam*
Jokes aside, I would love to see the what if for Perturabo.
Fulgrim is the easiest. He just doesn't pick up the fucking Laer Blade and we're good. By that I mean to change things he waits for backup to dampen his Legion's casualties a bit, and another Primarch (likely Ferrus) prevents him from picking up the Laer Blade. Also kill Fabius Bile or change his character and motivations greatly.. That would also solve the Emperor's Children's greatest problems as well. If there's no brain-fucking there's no reason for them to chase combat for pleasure. And besides that Fulgrim and Ferrus were extremely close, so if the Laer Blade isn't there then there isn't too much to drive a wedge between them. If these requirements were to be met, it would seem to me that the Chaos Gods would be down a champion. And the champion with the largest 30K Legion at that.
Hey dont forget Omegon.
@@docartemis2878 just have him once say thank you to his adoptive dad. then it just snowballs as he starts to feel love and acceptance and probably get the support to finish his works
The Arch Heresy, finally. You are the only WH youtuber that hasn't done one that I actually want to see do it. SO DO IT.
Also I loved this theory craft, and the Art is glorious. Also can we have the contacts of the person who made it, so we can commission them?
Cover the other alternative Hereseys though.
"The only on who seemed to have an actual conscience... was Kurze."
*Weeps in Vulkan*
I think he meant about the Traitor Primarchs - despite forgetting Alpharius Omegon which had moments of doubt too...
Roboute dorn leman and hawk boi
"It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both." - Niccolo Machiavelli
"But above all you should never be hated." - the ending to that saying that everyone seems to forget.
Ironic coming from the most beloved of all the Primarchs, eh, Sanguinius?
@@ElectromagNickThose are Machiavelli's words, not my own
@@strafe155 I am aware, I just found Sanguinius quoting Machiavelli to be funny.
@@ElectromagNick Fair enough 😂
Mr. Arch, I give full support for you to do the “opposite characters switch” theories you were asking us about!!
I love this theory crafting. Your theory of how Conrad could be loyalist is well thought and makes sense. Please do more of these for other Primarchs.
I'd say the reason he's blind is in this reality when Konrad having grown up in the internal night of Nostramo Gazed upon Big E for the first time
The shining glory of the emperor burned his eyes from his skull the afterimage forever seared into his mind.
The upside of this being that now his remaining already superhuman senses have compensated to the point that they're now practically supernatural
Combined with a natural outlet by which to control his already supernatural precognition with the psychic hood. Maybe he'd be able to shift it from seeing a possible future to seeing the absolute present, making Kurze's natural stealthiness and fighting ability even scarier.
I was real excited when you said you'd be continuing the primarch videos after such a long hiatus. 3 Curze videos later....
I mean...I’m not exactly complaining lol
I’ve actually been trying to write a story which is based on the idea of the traitors and loyalists being switched, with the focus being around Kurze and his legion as being Loyalists under the command of Emperor Horus (Waits for the booing to stop). Anyways, I like your ideas of what a Loyalist Kurze might look like, especially with that psychic hood to block his visions. In my story, I was having him use something like an isolation tank to shield him from the visions, my thinking being in the same vein as the one used by Daredevil to basically cut himself off from the constant noise his super-enhanced hearing picks up around him while he’s sleeping. I also like the symbolism you incorporated, like the use of the justice scales and the blindfold - justice is blind, after all. But more than that, the blindfold in particular reminds me of the Demon Hunters from World of Warcraft, who blind themselves during a ritual to bond a demon to their souls so they can see demons more effectively when hunting them. Maybe blinding Kurze has the added benefit of him being able to perceive the effects of the Warp more clearly as well, and would’ve allowed him to root out corruption from his legion more effectively. Anyways man, I love a lot of your ideas too - Any chance I can use them in my story?
Konrad is my favorite too! And the Night Lords my favorite Legion both when they were loyalist and traitors. Giant Grimdark Batman will always be the best.
He's more like The Shadow.
@@Wund3rKiin Yeah, fair enough.
Konrad let himself die to prove he was right..... sounds like a Perturabo thing to do.
"The only lesson that will be taught to a man by flogging him is how to turn his back"
Whoever coined this was clearly never flogged properly.
I had a very funny thought in which konrad was adopted by a detective Colombo style figure. I personally found the idea highly amusing.
Primarchs: What the warp man?!
Your depth of thought in the character is way better than any other channel I have ever seen! Your ability to deconstruct them into their basic motivation and reasonings and use that to construct a future that would be entirely opposite, yet still in their character, is absolutely amazing! I would love more videos like this
Idea for a loyalist version:
Angron. The Red Angel himself.
I believe that there is only one way that the Emperor could have made him loyal.
At the final battle with his slave army, the Emperor cannot teleport him away. Instead, if the Emperor stands beside him, maybe with a contingent of his Custodes as well, the tide of battle would shift. Even if every other gladiator warrior is slain, Angron and the Emperor would live.
By doing this, the Emperor would gain the respect due to one who sheds blood alongside a warrior. A respect that, in the natural story of 30k, he never attained.
I think that battle is the one and only point that could have changed the path of Angron.
OR OR OR THE WAR HOUNDS/WORLD EATERS DROP POD IN TO THE BATTLE
Dude...a loyalist angron...horus wouldn't stand a chance...
Your right but I think the reason the Emperor didn't do that is because he wanted to take over the world as quickly as possible with as little aggravation between his Imperium and the planets rulers so the Crusade could move on to the next world. Slaughtering whole armies from multiple city-states which probably contained high ranking nobles and their families would put a strain on relations and necessitate a large garrison or even massive reconstruction if the war escalated.
@@maxpower3990 I actually agree with your point. What the Emperor did as per the original story does actually make sense. But to the mind of Angron, what makes sense and what is honorable are not always the same thing. That is a point that is shown time and time again.
6:05
Angron hated the Emperor for several reasons. One of which was that he viewed him as no different than the Nobles on his planet. On the Night of the Wolf he talks about how the people they conquered were never given a choice in if they wanted to join. It was join or die and as Angron viewed the Emperor a Slaver.
I still say that some of the Night Lords joined in the Space Sharks chapter Loyalists.
The Carcharadons are Knight Lords successor chapter imo.
Dominic Omegon damn straight buddy!!
And if they are not Loyalists Night Lords, tacitly approved of by GW, then there truly is no justice in this world, or the one of the 41st millennium.
@@philosopherunknown1292 I think, if I remember correctly, that GW made them Raven Guard successors sadly... I will always and forever have them as Loyalist Night Lords though!
Ludwig Dahl, I would not completely despair though. Though I know GW officially lists certain chapters as successors of other loyalist chapters, let us not forget that GW could have a little fun with their history and P.R. as well, if you’re willing to read between the lines. I’ve always assumed GW takes on the role of Inquisitorial Historian in their own fluff, not able to state that certain chapters are descended from Traitor Legion gene-stock for fear that the Imperium at large (and the chapter in question) would lose their sh-. Indeed, The Silver Skulls, Blood Ravens, and Death Eagles if I remember that last one correctly are all stated to be descended from Loyalist stock, but......... if you’re willing to think for yourself (something not approved of in The Imperium), I’m sure you’ll come to a different conclusion. Sorry about the long winded rant, but just wanted to have some fun with fluff!
A loyalist Night Lords Legion in 40k would be so interesting. I know how i would want to run them. A legion splintered into patrol fleets mostly performing counter-insurgency and anti-piracy operations.
They'd have deep ties to the Adeptus Arbites across the galaxy, to the point that every time even a squad of Night Lords visit a planet they check in with the planets Arbites and the Arbites won't tell anyone (even the Inquisition). Even tithing children into the legion through the Adeptus Arbites and other symbiotic connections.
Things they'd probably have done or be known for as loyalists:
-Kidnapping a nearly entire farseer council from a craftworld.
-Traumatising the Tau into a genetic fear of bats.
-Raiding Commoraugh multiple times, capturing Dark Eldar and taking them alive, but never to be seen again.
-Having a complicated rivalry/relationship with the Harlequins. For obvious reasons.
-Having the terrible relations and multiple violent encounters with the Ecclesiarchy after multiple assassinations of Ecclesiastical members, including a cardinal and his retinue on the planet Vraks.
-Losing a planet to Chaos after arresting an Inquisitor, and several patrol fleets being sentenced to Penitent Crusades into the Eye of Terror as a result.
-Sneaking into a Necron Tomb and destorying a C'Tan shard in a surprise attack.
I really like what you did here, I agree with most of your very logical assumptions based upon this character's lore and analysis. "Original" Konrad, despite being among the best ones conceptually, is at the very bottom of my personal Primarch list due to terrible execution in most of 30k stories - he really appears as one-sided, trivially deluded scarecrow that screams for a better writing that his concept and place in the universe's lore deserve. I will definitely be using this, slightly moderated version of Konrad in my 30k campaing that I"m going to launch for my friends. Thanks a lot for this great and coherent theory and also really good artwork!
So pack a batman comic in the pod so finds himself a few robins
Curze may actually be our best prove for the failings of the Emperor; because either:
A) The Emperor know what Curze had become and chose not to correct it because he viewed him as useful (meaning the Emperor was most certainly not a „father“ for the Primarchs, but merely a craftsman with a toolbox.)
B) The Emperor overlooked or did not notice the ways of the Night Lord; meaning he simply does not care.
I‘m leaning towards A) myself; however my 30k lore isn’t not top-notch, so there may be explanations for this somewhere.
Additionally, it all runs under the presumption the the Emperor is or can even can be aware of the things mentioned.
Also, I‘d absolutely love to see more theory crafting in the future !
Phoenix Flames
The Night Lords and the World Eaters share the title for biggest red flag of “Emps dropped the ball bigtime.”
“I can repair a knight Titan just by touching it, but I won’t take this archeotech torture device out of my son’s head, even though it’s killing him.”
“Oh, his entire legion started getting those things installed... meh, as long as they still fight.”
@@krism.6598 Angron would have died if they tried to get the nail out of his head and they did indeed try to stop him from installing it everywhere but never had the will or the dedication to fully go trough with it after the showdown with the wolves. I would like to state that the emperor created the primarchs as tools, fully aware of all their flaws and atributes and all fully dedicated to an aspect of war: konrad was terror, the twins were covert ops, corvus stealth incarnate ect. While i personally believe he did indeed care for some of them like his sons and had genuine feelings for them, in the end they were tools, made for a purpose and used for it. Can you truly blame him for having favorites? A lot of fathers do to and honnestly i can get why he cherised Horus or Sanguinius and left Perturabo or Kurze to themselves.
@@krism.6598 Unless the Emperor was able to magic up Angron a completely new brain that he could put in him without killing him, removing the nails while keeping him alive was impossible because they had integrated and replaced parts of his brain.
There is the theory that the Emperor fully intended to purge some of these wayward sons. Once they were no longer useful as tools of war in his name that is. Perhaps he even hoped they'd die in battle to save him the trouble. Others I suspect he planned to give purposes they would've found more agreeable post crusade. The thousands sons and iron warriors for example would've been his scholars and his builders of cities respectively, while I suspect he would've put the Blood Angels to the blade for the thirst. If the heresy never happened I fully believe the house would've still been cleaned of some rotten fruit. In fact I believe that was the ultimate purpose for the Wolves... To purge all the Emperor found distasteful in his Imperium. To be his judgement as he wiped clean the slate of his failures.
squirrel_killer The angels never would have suffered from it if Sanguinius never died. When corax visited tera to rebuild his legion, he was housed inside a complex of appartements that was made to house each one of the primarchs post great crusade. Now we may never tell what would have happened had lorgar not been a fucking pussy, but the emperors least favorite sons might have gotten the boot. Im thinking Angron, maybe Kurze or even Lorgar if he got to zealous. I think only the problematic ones would get "purged", mortarion for exemple while not very usefull outside of war wasnt a problem to have around aside from his disgust for the warp since he kep to himself.
Maybe a widow who couldnt have children as an answer to her prayer
Feedback: love this, love it. This is excellent fanfiction right here. Would love to see more if you're so inclined. The art's great, incidentally. So many neat details. Hell, I wouldn't mind hearing more about this chapter. =D I can see how Konrad fits into this most readily, but it'd be interesting to see the others as well! I'm very curious how the canonical Loyalists might fall to Chaos also.
I welcome this change. You are very good at filling out missing parts of the lore, and this video was also great in that it's all very plausible.
A bittersweet feeling thinking about what could have been, perhaps that is the worst torture of them all
That picture of Konrad truly embodies 'Night Lord'. Your explanation of the elements was great.
This loyalist version would have some interesting interactions with his brothers, perhaps one or two even greatly valuing his company and seeking his council because of how nuanced it would likely be from a brother primarch who walked such a particularly harsh road.
I did enjoy this theory, would love to see one on Angron in the future.
If only Konrad had the courage to try and defy fate.
this was great arch! i do 40k RPs with my friends and do 'what if' senarios or world states and this was just perfection. i love the theroy craft with relevaence to existing lore. please make more
I really enjoyed it, I recently saw a theory craft from MajorKill on how to fix the end times for fantasy. Really fun what if scenarios. All hail Arch keep up the great work as always.
I reckon this side project of yours could be one of the best ideas you've had in a long time Arch, very clever. I highly recommend you keep it up, but also stick to what you have been doing for the most part.
feedback: this is very well done and I can definitely see a ult story of 40k where this was konrad's fate
I think theory crafting is fun. I foresee a void in this type of engagement with 40k, considering 40k theories will be producing less content, so you’re getting into it at the right time.
IF you can do it with a series of logical steps, as in "keep the asspulls to a minimum." I liked this, and would like to see it as a regular "What If" series.
Konrad is easily the most tragic of the traitors. It didn't have to happen. All it would have taken to avoid it is just a few minor differences. For any of the traitors.
If Magnus wasn't so pigheadedly convinced he knew better than the Emperor. If Russ had just double-checked his orders. If the Emperor had been a bit more open, and a better leader, none of the primarchs would have felt that killing him was a good idea.
...Anybody else feel that Games Workshop-that-was is far better at writing fluff then Games Workshop-that-is?
Magnus, Angron and even Fulgrim were far more "innocent" than Konrad. Him having guilt knowing he was in the wrong makes it all the worse. He also left behind arguably the most evil chaos legion to cause suffering for the sake of it.
Logar´s rat and Fulgrim´s butt boi´s are worst
@@legionofthedamned157 the Emporers Children are nowhere near the worst legion, they just fell further than the others who where already fucked up (not including Magnus) and yes Lorgar is a rat.
Isn’t the night lords one of the least corrupted though?
The night lords are stand up guys compared to 90 percent of the chaos legions
i think a crucial moment would be the boy, if he realized that a stab to the chest would be impossible to harm him, and took him in to be his follower, he too would learn to be a person, and that would be enough. that could be the only change it took I think
I loved this video. It was quite interesting and frankly the ideas you came up with are worthy of being created into a full fledged what if novel series. I really do hope you continue this series in the near future and even perhaps connect the what ifs together and have these altered characters interact with each other.
I recently read they are teasing that maybe ALL the primachs will return to the setting. I would fucking love warp entity reborn Konrad and Ferrus, two headless "Emperor's Demon" Primarchs and Wulven Leman coming out of the eye of terror to lay down the law.
I want to see a "what if" series. Not just the traitors but the loyalist, and even other races and events.
I really love the new theorycrafting video, pls continue and feel free to explore it as often (preferably more so) as you like.
Waiting for other Primarchs and their lore. My lack of knowledge is eating me.
Doing a research first cause I'm planning to make a 500 points loyalist night Lord's that stayed and survive during the Horus heresy
Please do continue with this kind of videos! It was great, and I'd love to see a loyalist Perturabo and a loyalist Lorgar. I'd also be very interested in seeing how a traitor Dorn and a traitor Guilliman would be like!
"Aristocrat of the night, rather than a slinking monster." Such an awesome quote! I would love to see a Horus Heresy reversal series with the roles reversed!! There are so many avenues that could take!
I honestly love this!
This is they kind of "waht If" that I personaly enjoy because you don't retcon everything instead you just take key elements of theire life and how could things turned out If they chose A instead of B.
I can see in a universe where they stay loyal Nostramo giving up as a tithe to the empire a particularly nasty version of adeptus arbites
Got a planet with a nasty level of crime that's gotten to the point it's severely affecting tithes.
Send in a regiment of Nostramo arbites and watch the crime rate drop in real time
Definitely don’t mind this sort of content, your video on recreating traitor legions as new chapters is one of my favorites. As long as you point out it’s a theory, go for it.
Konrad needed to learn one thing. As Sara Conner learned - "No fate but what we make."
Sara could not stop Judgement Day and Skynet. But, she could change the when, the how and thereby change the outcome of the rise of Skynet. Konrad may not have been able to escape the destinations of his visions. The Emperor said something like that. But, he can change the journey getting there. By dictating the journey, he may still arrive at the terrible places he saw,. but he can change so many other things in fate by dictating the journey to get there and change it as he likes.
Artwork makes me think he's Arthas' and Illidan's lovechild...am I supposed to?
Personally Arthas' choice at Stratholme always felt right to me, but honestly War3 never grew on me. So I don't remember if Illidan fits as well.
JoeRingo118 tbh illidan did the right things if it wasn’t for shadowsong’s obsession azeroth would probably had less world ending threats
This was an awesome video Arch, I really thoroughly enjoyed it, I love how you really balanced out the arguments. I would love to hear a series on all the Primarchs Loyal and Chaotic,...for instance what could of realistically happened for Dorn to fall to Chaos, or could Angron of been saved?.....great video Arch
This is like imagining a
non-Dickheaded Lion El-Johnson,
or a non-NEERRRRRRRRRRD Magnus.
What if the Space Wolves were the Space Coyotes?
@@Marinealver we are actually more like warhounds to be honest.
What if Magnus And Leman were sent to each other plants instead. Now that be a train wreck waiting to happen.
Magnus Will always be a nerd
@@legionofthedamned157 and you Damned ghosty guys will always be cool and handy in a pinch.
His weapons names should be changed to Law and Order for his claws, and Justice for his sword.
A part of me have always wondered what a perfect galaxy would look like.
For example, we know that Magnus most likely would act as a lightbulb for the Imperium.
But Lorgar? Mortarion? Angron? We're they simply tools to conquer the galaxy, to be disposed of as final victory was declared?
My mind wanders elsewhere. I am no longer here.
Certain legions were more geared towards war only than others. It's worth remembering Angron's situation wasn't to plan though
They’d probably be put in cryogenic sleep or killed cause they’re all tools in the end except for magnus he’s is needed until they figured how to traverse the web way like the eldar anyways
Angron in an ideal world would likely have been the Warrior-Champion of the Imperium. In his early years Angron showed incredible loyalty to his followers despite the Butcher’s Nails in his head. Even going so far as to refuse to join the Emperor so he could join his men in a suicidal last stand. In the end Emps was forced to teleport Angron off the planet this caused an eternal rift between them. Without any of that animosity and lacking the Nails I think Angron while lacking in ability as a general compared to his brother was much more of a warrior. Savage and brutal like Russ but skilled with all weapons to the degree Sanguinus was with a sword he would have been the unmatchable Warrior-Champion of the Imperium dedicated to her citizens to his dying breath but not the Emperor...
These are my assumptions:
For Lorgar you really only need to look at what his Legion, the only one to come into being with a name, was used for. The Imperial Heralds were well known for their zealotry of the Imperial Truth and the great lengths they went to in order to ensure that religion was stamped out. Reading books page by page for any hint of superstition or witchcraft. So where does that leave Lorgar? Simple, Lorgar would be the one who spread the Imperial Truth, he would be its preacher, its propagandist, the one that ensured orthodoxy and that humanity never falls back into its past. To use Inquisitorial terms he and his Legion would be the Ordo Hereticus, but be about the Imperial Truth.
The Dusk Raiders are not too different from the Death Guard that followed them, endurance and attrition warfare. However we must look at how destructive they were in the Crusade. To humans they gave terms of honorable surrender. But to the alien, the mutant, and the humans who refused the terms? No quarter was given and absolutely everything was destroyed by them. So I would assume Mortarion and his sons would have been a pillar of the Imperium, a pillar of the purity of mankind, the hunter of the hidden xeno, the rebel, and the mutant, the Legion that would be called in when something had to be absolutely and utterly eradicated. Essentially the Inquisition's Ordo Mallus and Ordo Xenos but with more Astartes and more sane.
I don't know about the War Hounds (World Eaters) but given Angron's interactions with the gladiators and natural charisma even with his brain crippled I think Angron could have become a champion of the common man. Humanity always needs heroes and Angron would have been able to connect to all Imperial citizens and become that hero.
Since we now know that Guilliman _DID_ speak with Him, I wonder if the "Primarchs were just tools" was just Big E. rambling, having lost His humanity and/or His sanity.
That would make me a bit depressed... :(
Loyalist Curze ... so ... basically Batman.
Was waiting on this Episode, :) And I indeed would love to listen to how you'd interpret the various Primarchs in a different light
chaous curze = crazy batman
loyal curze= batman with a Robin
If I had a decent mic setup and recording room. everyone would love to watch a livestream of me and Arch screaming at each other about The Emperor's pre-corrupted plans. how all of the known Primarchs would of been if they were shaped by their father and not their home planets. along with the true roles the Legions where designed for.
Ex1. Mortarion was always meant to burn worlds and clean them of life. a useful tool when taking green skin worlds or sectors.
Ex2. The Night Lords are a specialist tool like a flame thrower or meltagun. They where designed to bring justice and order to the under hives after the Great Crusade, and not a terror weapon.
Where's my Traitor Dorn, Arch?
I love it, Arch. Intriguing, analytical, well researched content that's also unavailable anywhere else - there isn't really a lorebook for a loyalist Night Haunter now is there? More of this, I say.
I enjoyed this episode. I can't speak for everyone else but I kind of like the idea of alternate history of the primarchs.
Makes me wonder what Angron would have been like if he had never been found. But instead grew up in the wilderness watching the civilization from the distance. And never had those spikes stuck into his skull. How would things have been different? What would he have done. How would he have moved and made his choices? And most importantly of all where would those choices have led him? Would he still be a half mad raving monster or would he have become something else? Would he have become a successful Spartacus from the Shadows?
Everyone would probably think the most obvious choice for an alternate history would be Magnus. Yes Magnus is an arrogant and egotistical know-it-all. However his entire turning against the emperor was hinged on one event. Instead of putting together a fleet with his sons and going to the capital world he tried to project himself there individually. He knew that Horus had turned against the emperor. It would have been entirely reasonable for him to have made the choice to gather his military forces and go and support of his father. He could have brought the warning with vast armies of soldiers. That's obvious as a choice that would have changed his history. What would he have done when he found out his father was working on a human webway project? Maybe instead of the emperor having to hold back hordes of demons and fight Wars in that web way he could have done it? Maybe Magnus could have sat the throne instead of Malcador? I think the emperor would have put his whiny little know-it-all psychic but to use in such a way that would prove that he did not know as much as he thought he did. "But that's just my opinion."
Another interesting one would have been Papa Smurf himself. He was created to be an Empire Builder. That's his whole purpose and reason for existence. That does not mean that he had to be a good Empire Builder. Or let me rephrase it a builder of the Empire of the good. If he was found and raised by somebody else he could have grown up and become an Empire Builder in the fascist sense. I could see armies of blue swastika clad minions marching in Conquest of 500 worlds with their little golden toothbrush mustache wearing 9 ft tall Papa Smurf. All while marching to the theme of" la la la."
What about Mortarion? What if the emperor had not interfered in his attempt to kill his adopted father? What if he was able to reach down deep into one of his Primark hearts and pull out the last little bit of strength needed to make that last lunge and take out his adopted father? What are the consequences of emperor appeared and instead of fighting his battle for him took him to his ship and gave him medical treatment and cleansing him of the toxins and poisons after he had successfully completed his task. How would that have changed him. A big part of his turning against the emperor could be argued the stem from his failure. His self perceived weakness and inadequacies. After all he's the one that failed to achieve his goal because he wasn't strong enough to withstand the poisons and toxins. But if he had pulled out that last little sliver of strength just enough to slay his mutant adopted father and saved his world even if it cost him his life to have his life saved by the emperor after he had completed his task how would that change the perspective?
My take on Konrad. I would have loved to hear each torture he leaned on the street of Norstromo from the people he consumed.
Konrad wasn't a judge. He was like a mob boss who cowed the planet into complices though fear.
I feel fantastic about this Arch. You've done excellent work here and I'd love to see more.