It’s great to see a vendor pursue quality first and do right by their customers. It took time and money to swap out 1000 connectors, but you did it anyway. That’s integrity. My hat’s off to you!
Wonderful and thank you and yes the sound tools project is about making great products and doing something I enjoy. And there's no fun in making things that are not super high quality with amazing warranty
Both Neutrik and SoundTools doing something good because it's the right thing to do for different reasons. Also, seems like Neutrik are chill guys and easy to work with! Refreshing to hear that nowadays, thanks for the transparency 🙏🏼
@@SirkitBr8ker 100% agree, we are lucky to have access to such knowlagable souls who are willing to share their passions in such great detail with us, for little to nothing in return other than a discussion!!!
I just got a few new non-chrome black versions and a few old black chrome connectors. I thought I was going crazy/I thought I got scammed because of the finish difference. This makes soooo much sense
Thanks. Good for the head's up. Just an FYI, the new black plating might be perfect for use in 3 and 5 pin 110 ohm digital DMX cable as the specification does not allow the use of grounded shell connectors to prevent shock if attached to an improperly grounded fixture.
I think for many or most applications the insulated shell is a non issue. In fact grounding XLR shells is also an issue in many situations and rarely should be grounded. That said, for ethercon and especially analog over Cat, we want and need the grounded shell
@@DaveRat Dave, can you elaborate on how grounding XLR shells would be an issue? I'm specifically asking about regular analog mic cables, not DMX or other applications.
@ Just an FYI, many analog snake cables do not ground the shell of the connector. Even some major industry leaders such as Whirlwind. This surprised me when I checked them. The connections in the snake wire only connect to the 3 XLR pins and not the 4th lug for the shell.
Grounding the shells of an XLR connector will connect the audio ground to the earth ground when that connector is plugged into a piece of gear. This is highly probable to create ground loops and other issues. All the ground lift switches that are on the back of analog gear will stop working if cables with the shell ground to the audio ground are used. I have a video on the member side about this subject and I will release it public at some point but for most applications grounding the shell will cause problems and should be appointed on XLR connectors
I'm surprised the inner surface isn't conductive. And that they didn't leave the bare nickel exposed so they would remain conductive. I realize that wouldn't cover every usage scenario, but it would cover a lot.
Oh man! This is soooo useful! I'm glad I follow your channel Dave! I've noticed indeed that all the connectors I got the past few months for my cables where slightly different, a bit smoother and a bit more glossy, but didn't know it wouldn't be conductive anymore, nor about the impact on EtherCon shielding. When I started building my own cables, I when for black connectors Neutrik for estheatic reasons, but as you put it, "you got to go with quality first and foremost" (there might be a new t-shirt there) I'm really curious on how you found about it and if Neutrik will come up with a conductive black paint that isn't harmful for health or environment in the future. Thank you very much again, what you share here is always very instructive
As Neutrik dealer we get engineering updates and it was in an engineering update they sent us, The ones that show at the end of the video. That said we didn't catch it and we were alerted to it by a customer and went back and tested and researched and then wrote to actively changed everything. As far as them making conductive black shells, I think if they knew how to do it with the modern standards they would have done it so I wouldn't hold my breath for that
@@DaveRat Maybe there's something with this new graphene chemistry that's coming round, super durable (in 2 directions) 1 atom thin, conductive carbon allotrope. Although I'm not sure it's at a place it could be used for a tour cable yet... but maybe sometime down the line it could be useful. ;)
Yeah we may see a conductive block at some point. What I'd really like to see in the meantime is for Neutrik to make the second ground wiper active instead of a dummy
I had a problem last year where a connector shell that *was* conductive caused a problem. There was a ground loop in the main PA, which caused an intermittent buzzing. The system tech and I eventually located the issue at the output of the system processor, where the XLR shell was touching the metal of the stage structure. We strapped the cable up away from the metal beam, and the problem was solved.
Yes XLR connector shells should never be grounded except for specific applications. I did a video covering all this on the member side of the channel that I will release public at some point. Grounding XLR shells is bound to cause issues because it ties the earth ground to the audio ground in places that will invariably create ground loops if connected to gear or if the shells touch anything metal
This information is highly appreciated. Thank you! I'm lucky though, I have replaced the connectors on my most important Ethercon cables by silver Neutriks some time ago. Which wasn't exactly a fun procedure and not cheap either. (The reason actually was that my Ethercon cables were good but had cheap non-Neutrik connectors that started falling apart.)
Hey Dave I love the channel! Always of interest. Keep up the good work Same problem with guitar jack connectors. I make my own gtr cables so I know what's in them. Got a bunch of new black connectors before Christmas and made up some cables only to find they hum when you hold the sleeves. Lo and behold they were non conducting. I swapped the sleeves and all is good except for costs and time. It's possible to scrape the paint off to make a contact connection but not to be trusted on a gig.
This got me checking all the XLR rack units I built in the last year and thankfully they swapped out all the chromium ones before I ordered the xlr sockets for them all. I went into designing them with the housings tied into pin 1 and isolated from the chasis directly due to how the PCB was made to avoid ground loops, with sheild of XLR going right into the PCB and then grounding to chasis from there, I didn't need to go to all that effort in using plastic isolators for the screws, had I of known, as the new housings aren't even conductive haha ... but at least they aren't carsonogenic anymore either! xD
👍🤙👍 and also be sure to test connections with the new shells as it looks like in some scenarios they do conduct if the KTM coating chips where the latch attached and there is less KTM inside the shell
Chromium 6 was used and is still used in the paint by the Dutch railroads for their trains. In the past during maintenance chromium 6 would be released in the air causing many illnesses by the workers. Currently the workers are better protected and former workers are being compensated.
Glad I must have got old stock on the 5 I got delivered yesterday. Just checked and got shell to shell continuity. Phew lol😅maybe best if I order a load more just now for future use lol😊Im really shocked at Neutrik messing up this one 😮
Never occurred to me that the metal housing WOULDN'T be conductive. I had put some other cables together with black neutrik connectors and had some ground issues... Wonder if this was the cause. I gotta go check some cables out lol. Thanks!
Thanks a lot for the detailed heads-up! On past videos and infos concerning AES50 over cat in Midas M32 systems, it has been mentioned that the shell conductivity and connection to shield is important. In this video there is no mention of that - do you consider it still an important factor in that protocol?
I think the importance of the conductive shell in AES50 is helpful but not critical. I say that because AES50 works just fine without even using shielded cable except in environments with lots of static discharge. So the conductive shell and the shield are not needed. Adding the shielding to the cable makes the setup more resist it to ESD issues. Adding the shelves adds a tiny bit of shielding at the end. I think the conductive shells for AES 50 concept evolved from a slight misunderstanding. I think that when music tribe switched to recommending shielded cables for a AES50, which they did not do originally, that someone came up with a plan for measuring conductivity between the shells to make sure your cables were shielded and help with the ESD issue. I think that that was misunderstood and transferred to conductive shell importance would actually what was important was measuring from RJ45 housing to RJ45 housing. It's important to note that shielded RJ45 connectors have metal surrounding the conductors already and they ethercon shell is a redundant shield
@@DaveRat I was looking into the X32 rack and ran across a few articles and notes on cables it seem like an ESD discharge / ground issues that people were having that they started changing to recommending shielded cable. The system I became maintainer of came with unshielded cable and I have not had any issues until the end of last year nor have I been able to repeat it in the shop. Seemed like I was having sync issues with the AES Signal and occasional drop outs yet the cable tests OK. it started to manifest as no connection until I rebooted the stage box or unplugged it then I would be good for the show. And then the occasional drop out after a few hours. Of course I had an all in-ear band with no stage witches I mean wedges; when everything dropped out and I'm like oh shoot, I looked at the app to see that the AES connection dropped and started walking towards the stage and it kicked back in. Thankfully it's only a short 25 foot cable but I'm still trying to repeat the symptom.
Cheers Dave, neutrik have gone down the pan in the last ten years, powercon plugs and sockets go faulty very quickly, and the Xlr plugs feel lighter in weight to me, plastic clutch shoddy.
For the most part we are happy with Neutrik, The connectors they make are still the best choice and we've tested looked into other other options. Sound tools is the largest purchaser of Neutrik connectors in North America! They've been responsive as we inevitably come across issues. I don't really blame them for this though I think they underestimated the importance of grounded shells
Imagine my disappointment when I bought your new SuperCat cable to be the end of my CAT-5 cable issues and the first thing I did was test continuity between shells…. I ended up sanding off the coating on the ends. Could you send me a pair of the new shells?
Absolutely, give a shout to warranty at soundtools.com We are extremely interested in tracing every cable we sold that has the new style shell and we thought we contacted everyone that bought them and located them all but finding another is is helpful.
Interesting... Thanks 🙂 I personally hated the old black chromium finished shells, especially the 100pcs packs, because they always came with a slight oil film on, that turned your hands black handling them.
Yeah they weren't pretty and the nickel ones are actually really nice looking so it took us a bit of time to get our heads around at and whether customers would be upset that we stopped offering Black but The nickel is the way to go and one of the challenges was getting the message out. The positive reaction to this video so far is really reinforcing the path we choose as the best one
@ You could think of a partial black powdercoating ... only that part of the shell, which is still visible, when the connector is plugged in. rest stays nickel. (and additionally other colors than black would be possible.... )
@ You could think of a partial black powdercoating ... only that part of the shell, which is still visible, when the connector is plugged in. rest stays nickel. (and additionally other colors than black would be possible.... )
Yeah, powder coat tends to chip. I think this KTM coating is a robust version of paint/powder coat. Perhaps som masking on the KTM. But all in all, the nickel is clean, robust, and less likely to chip. I'm ok with this
@ I'd like to try, if this black KTM coating could be removed (partially) by e.g. a Fiber or UV laser. not only to improve contact, but also to label the shells. But no money for that at the moment.
Very intersting, I had no idea about this! For use cases where Black is still important (for optical reasons) but also conductivity: Why not only coat the connectors halfway?
Not sure, that would be a question for the manufacturer. I am guessing that would require masking and masking is kind of a pain to do. Also I don't know how this coding deals with an end to the coding. Does it peel back
Great video, on multiple levels. Would it also be effective to scratch off the black coating to the bare metal in cases where the black version is already in place?
Yeah I guess that could be done but that's messy and ugly. It's primarily a redundant ground so I think that effort would be better spent on ensuring the primary ground is intact and clean
@@DaveRat Totally agreed. We had an instance last year where a cable was used between a mixer and a stage box and it would periodically freeze both devices. We replaced with a standard ethernet line and didn't have issues, but was curious if maybe that had a little part. Was just a curious question, rather than one meant for long-term use.
My concern would be that the removal of the coating might invite oxidation that it was otherwise inhibiting, in a similar way that the earlier plating provided.
I like them both but product wise, black always outsells nickel. So switching to nickel may hurt sales but quality of our products must not be compromised
@@DaveRat You can't argue with customer preference, although I would hope anyone buying from your company is more concerned with quality, reputation, and attention to detail, than to aesthetics. I can't believe I never thought of the finer details you describe here when I tone out F/UTP etherCON cables I build to ensure the drain wire is soldered well and is connected to the shell.
Hi! Audio student here. I’ve heard that the fourth pen/shell should only be connected on ONE end of the cable and not both ends. Is this true? What do you do for your cables?
Do not connect the fourth pin to the shell unless you're doing recording work in a field and extending cables. In fact the only time that connecting the fourth pin helps is when you're extending cables. Everywhere else the shell gets grounded to the chassis of the gear or gets grounded to the shell of the microphone or DI box by the microphone or DI box or gear. Earth ground and chassis ground are two separate grounds and keeping them separate is important. If you ground the shells of an XLR you connect the two together and create ground loop issues in many situations
i was trying to hook up an SD8 stage box to my X32 rack with (the recommended) STP cable (not EtherCon) at 150’. it did not like this AT ALL. i tested the cable every which way and it’s still functioning perfectly to this day as Ethernet for my X-Touch. but to get the stage box working i had to switch to EtherCon… i’m assuming the box wasn’t taking ground over the STP’s shield, but it’s been flawless ever since
Interesting. The ground in the shell and the shield are not required for it to function but the ethicon shell does a good job of keeping the RJ45 properly lined up to make better contact. The shield or ground is only to protect from electrostatic discharge and actually makes it work less good. In non electrostatic environments on shielded cables will perform better because they have lower capacitance than their shield did counterparts with the same internal guts
For most applications and indoor usage everything will be fine with the new shells. Keep in mind that shielded RJ45 cables have no shells at all And they work just fine. That said, the conducting shells add a redundant ground which is useful for high stress and adverse environments. In my analysis and opinion that redundant ground is beneficial enough for us that sound tools to standardize on it.
Am I reading that right that this change happened a year and a half ago?! So any new black Neutrik connector bought since then is most likely not conductive?
On the upside the nickel ones are cheaper on the downside they're not gonna be black and Match everything else. I guess they're going after something else after they've done all the speak-on connectors. I'm all for less chemicals polluting as well but they have to be replaced by comparable products. And technically both of those wipers should really be connected that's just a cost saving, and some of those connectors break out to a second pin for the PCB and some don't.
Yeah I don't know the process but if it's anything like anodizing you have to mask anything that you don't want quoted and masking is a pain in the ass and raises costs and slows things down. I think there's a similar challenge with powder coating. I don't think they expected anyone to be overly concerned about it and I get the feeling their little surprised by the pushback from sound tools It's quite possible that even up people push back on it hell rethink and revise
Just because they have a non-conductive coating on the outside does not mean they are not a part of the shield. Did you check to see if the paint blocks the connection on the inside of the connector shell? I would scratch though the paint to see if the metal underneath is grounded. Or just ask Neutrik.
Great point. Did you perhaps read the engineering releases from Neutrik that I posted at the end of the vid? The shells are fully coated with the non conductive KTM coating nside and out. My discussions with Neutrik were pretty thorough regarding the etherCON shell. Did not discuss the XLR Shell specifically and don't currently have any of the new XLR versions My biggest question is how the 4th tab on the XLR is dealt with. Does it no longer connect to anything? Does it somehow connect to the shell but the shells don't conduct to each other? Does the locking tab on the female XLR scratch freo7gh the KTM and connect? Will dive in at some point
Just bought a 25ft SuperCAT 7 off Amazon and the Neutrik sheilds are black and conductive (and that kinda dirty black) so they must be the "older" version. What is the actual risk with them being Chromium 6? Is this similar to lead paint where you can use it without issue so long as you dont eat it?
I think the chromium 6 issue to the best of my understanding has to do with manufacturing but not an issue after the product is done. And yes all of the sound tools products in the pipeline have the old version or will be nickel
@dave rat , isn't the inside of the barrel still conductive on the new KTM though? Since the inside of the barrel is what interfaces with the shield wiper, if the inside is conductive, the outside shouldn't matter....
Nope, the entire shell is coated. Did you by chance look at the engineering release documents I posted at the end of the video where they say that the shells are no longer conductive?
@@DaveRat correct, not suggesting getting rid of conductivity, just hiding the shiny parts. Could also wrap with tape after connecting but that gets gummy.
Ahh, yes. Sound Tools does not make XLR and since sthercon are not extendable without a barrel which are black, typically the ethercon connections are not overly visible
@ Im guessing you stitched many images together to have all the details flat without the pots eclipsing the detail.. or do you have a scanner that big ? Anyway a collection of life size pics of classic desks is something the world is missing ! or even printed fabric ones as desk dust covers .!
Isn't black nitride for ferrous metals?. The connector shells are not necessarily ferrous based though they are slightly magnetic there's not much ferrous metal in them.
Well. The viper of the RJ-45, is a duvke viper. It uses two springs pr side. And the "dummy" viper i guess i a Integration fault of the board connector. However i do not wish to make enemys, and having 2-3-4 connections is of course better. But! Doing analouge signalin over Cat cabeling is not the best way to do it. It is not made to transport human frequency signals, rather much much giher frequency ones.
All good and I appreciate the comment and this is what the channels all about is sharing information and perspectives and trying to figure out things that will be useful and understood
It wasn't enough with lead free solder to ruin electronics reliability, now non conductive plating.... Maybe they are also planning RoHS cigarettes....or a new Tax for non RoHS Electronics....
Awesome and yeah I've done a bit of soldering. Hey just sit down for a few days at a time and solder on 176 pin 56 channel w4 connectors making main snakes and breakout tails while watching movies. Good times
It’s great to see a vendor pursue quality first and do right by their customers. It took time and money to swap out 1000 connectors, but you did it anyway. That’s integrity. My hat’s off to you!
Wonderful and thank you and yes the sound tools project is about making great products and doing something I enjoy. And there's no fun in making things that are not super high quality with amazing warranty
Both Neutrik and SoundTools doing something good because it's the right thing to do for different reasons. Also, seems like Neutrik are chill guys and easy to work with!
Refreshing to hear that nowadays, thanks for the transparency 🙏🏼
Yes, Neutrik has been very responsive to Sound Tools and much appreciated
Dave, thank you from the bottom of my heart for all the truly invaluable information you're passing along. You're a gem. Amazing content 👌
Wow and so cool and thank you!
@@SirkitBr8ker 100% agree, we are lucky to have access to such knowlagable souls who are willing to share their passions in such great detail with us, for little to nothing in return other than a discussion!!!
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I just got a few new non-chrome black versions and a few old black chrome connectors. I thought I was going crazy/I thought I got scammed because of the finish difference. This makes soooo much sense
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Many, many thanks to y’all for putting so much care in your products!
Thank you Riley
Dave I Appreciate you. For taking care of your Clients and caring for the products
Thank you Hennie!
Amazing info Dave. Thanks so much for educating the community and more importantly, your commitment to excellence in your products.
So cool and thank you!
Thanks
Thanks. Good for the head's up. Just an FYI, the new black plating might be perfect for use in 3 and 5 pin 110 ohm digital DMX cable as the specification does not allow the use of grounded shell connectors to prevent shock if attached to an improperly grounded fixture.
I think for many or most applications the insulated shell is a non issue. In fact grounding XLR shells is also an issue in many situations and rarely should be grounded.
That said, for ethercon and especially analog over Cat, we want and need the grounded shell
@@DaveRat Dave, can you elaborate on how grounding XLR shells would be an issue? I'm specifically asking about regular analog mic cables, not DMX or other applications.
@ Just an FYI, many analog snake cables do not ground the shell of the connector. Even some major industry leaders such as Whirlwind. This surprised me when I checked them. The connections in the snake wire only connect to the 3 XLR pins and not the 4th lug for the shell.
Grounding the shells of an XLR connector will connect the audio ground to the earth ground when that connector is plugged into a piece of gear. This is highly probable to create ground loops and other issues. All the ground lift switches that are on the back of analog gear will stop working if cables with the shell ground to the audio ground are used.
I have a video on the member side about this subject and I will release it public at some point but for most applications grounding the shell will cause problems and should be appointed on XLR connectors
@ Ok, thanks.
I would too make the change to silver! Good to see Quality and Safety over aestethics approach
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I'm surprised the inner surface isn't conductive. And that they didn't leave the bare nickel exposed so they would remain conductive.
I realize that wouldn't cover every usage scenario, but it would cover a lot.
Agreed
Oh man! This is soooo useful!
I'm glad I follow your channel Dave!
I've noticed indeed that all the connectors I got the past few months for my cables where slightly different, a bit smoother and a bit more glossy, but didn't know it wouldn't be conductive anymore, nor about the impact on EtherCon shielding.
When I started building my own cables, I when for black connectors Neutrik for estheatic reasons, but as you put it, "you got to go with quality first and foremost" (there might be a new t-shirt there)
I'm really curious on how you found about it and if Neutrik will come up with a conductive black paint that isn't harmful for health or environment in the future.
Thank you very much again, what you share here is always very instructive
As Neutrik dealer we get engineering updates and it was in an engineering update they sent us, The ones that show at the end of the video.
That said we didn't catch it and we were alerted to it by a customer and went back and tested and researched and then wrote to actively changed everything.
As far as them making conductive black shells, I think if they knew how to do it with the modern standards they would have done it so I wouldn't hold my breath for that
@@DaveRat Maybe there's something with this new graphene chemistry that's coming round, super durable (in 2 directions) 1 atom thin, conductive carbon allotrope.
Although I'm not sure it's at a place it could be used for a tour cable yet... but maybe sometime down the line it could be useful. ;)
Yeah we may see a conductive block at some point.
What I'd really like to see in the meantime is for Neutrik to make the second ground wiper active instead of a dummy
Your attention to detail continues to impress.
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Thanks for the info and the update. You always have interesting, useful, helpful or intriguing things for us. Cheers!
Much appreciated and thank you!
I had a problem last year where a connector shell that *was* conductive caused a problem. There was a ground loop in the main PA, which caused an intermittent buzzing. The system tech and I eventually located the issue at the output of the system processor, where the XLR shell was touching the metal of the stage structure. We strapped the cable up away from the metal beam, and the problem was solved.
Yes XLR connector shells should never be grounded except for specific applications. I did a video covering all this on the member side of the channel that I will release public at some point.
Grounding XLR shells is bound to cause issues because it ties the earth ground to the audio ground in places that will invariably create ground loops if connected to gear or if the shells touch anything metal
This information is highly appreciated. Thank you! I'm lucky though, I have replaced the connectors on my most important Ethercon cables by silver Neutriks some time ago. Which wasn't exactly a fun procedure and not cheap either. (The reason actually was that my Ethercon cables were good but had cheap non-Neutrik connectors that started falling apart.)
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Dave Great catch! I'm stunned Neutrik QC didn't fail non conductive black shells, useless for Ethercon!
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Interesting... Thanks for sharing. Shielding and proper grounding is very important to our kind of work! Everything little thing adds up.
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Hey Dave, Thank You for the Info. Had a cable-build-marathon coming up.
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Daaaaang! I always learn so much from you Dave!
Now I think I know why my ONE cable picks up local radio station! I’ll be swapping ends! Thx man!!
Hey Dave I love the channel! Always of interest. Keep up the good work
Same problem with guitar jack connectors. I make my own gtr cables so I know what's in them. Got a bunch of new black connectors before Christmas and made up some cables only to find they hum when you hold the sleeves. Lo and behold they were non conducting. I swapped the sleeves and all is good except for costs and time. It's possible to scrape the paint off to make a contact connection but not to be trusted on a gig.
Awesome and thank you!
Great video & great work pursuing excellence!
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wow!!! so much I didn't know! Shocking for the chrome-paint.... Learnt again a lot... Thanks, Dave for all the great videos! Keep them coming! ;-)
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Thank you for your ministry, this is much needed information
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This got me checking all the XLR rack units I built in the last year and thankfully they swapped out all the chromium ones before I ordered the xlr sockets for them all. I went into designing them with the housings tied into pin 1 and isolated from the chasis directly due to how the PCB was made to avoid ground loops, with sheild of XLR going right into the PCB and then grounding to chasis from there, I didn't need to go to all that effort in using plastic isolators for the screws, had I of known, as the new housings aren't even conductive haha ... but at least they aren't carsonogenic anymore either! xD
👍🤙👍 and also be sure to test connections with the new shells as it looks like in some scenarios they do conduct if the KTM coating chips where the latch attached and there is less KTM inside the shell
@@DaveRat Oh that's really useful knowlage! thanks!!!
Chromium 6 was used and is still used in the paint by the Dutch railroads for their trains.
In the past during maintenance chromium 6 would be released in the air causing many illnesses by the workers.
Currently the workers are better protected and former workers are being compensated.
Yeah, we humans make messes and sometimes try and stop making as poisonous of a mess.
Love the Midas desk backdrop
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Wow. Great info as always mate. They are gonna cause chaos with that - especially on behringer Midas gear.
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Glad I must have got old stock on the 5 I got delivered yesterday. Just checked and got shell to shell continuity. Phew lol😅maybe best if I order a load more just now for future use lol😊Im really shocked at Neutrik messing up this one 😮
Yeah, it's not Neutrik, it's the RoHS but in the big picture, what's more important? Black shells or loads of super toxic chemicals being released?
As a fellow fan of black connectors, I’d have probably been bitten by this as some point. Thanks!
Very cool and thank you!
Cool video! Thanks for not loosing ground! :p
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Hmm... thanks for the heads up mate. Good to know going forwards. A= Clip.
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Never occurred to me that the metal housing WOULDN'T be conductive. I had put some other cables together with black neutrik connectors and had some ground issues... Wonder if this was the cause. I gotta go check some cables out lol. Thanks!
For XLR you almost always do not want the shell grounded to the audio ground. For ethercon having the shell grounded is better than floating
Thanks a lot for the detailed heads-up! On past videos and infos concerning AES50 over cat in Midas M32 systems, it has been mentioned that the shell conductivity and connection to shield is important. In this video there is no mention of that - do you consider it still an important factor in that protocol?
I think the importance of the conductive shell in AES50 is helpful but not critical.
I say that because AES50 works just fine without even using shielded cable except in environments with lots of static discharge.
So the conductive shell and the shield are not needed.
Adding the shielding to the cable makes the setup more resist it to ESD issues.
Adding the shelves adds a tiny bit of shielding at the end.
I think the conductive shells for AES 50 concept evolved from a slight misunderstanding.
I think that when music tribe switched to recommending shielded cables for a AES50, which they did not do originally, that someone came up with a plan for measuring conductivity between the shells to make sure your cables were shielded and help with the ESD issue.
I think that that was misunderstood and transferred to conductive shell importance would actually what was important was measuring from RJ45 housing to RJ45 housing.
It's important to note that shielded RJ45 connectors have metal surrounding the conductors already and they ethercon shell is a redundant shield
@@DaveRat I was looking into the X32 rack and ran across a few articles and notes on cables it seem like an ESD discharge / ground issues that people were having that they started changing to recommending shielded cable. The system I became maintainer of came with unshielded cable and I have not had any issues until the end of last year nor have I been able to repeat it in the shop. Seemed like I was having sync issues with the AES Signal and occasional drop outs yet the cable tests OK. it started to manifest as no connection until I rebooted the stage box or unplugged it then I would be good for the show. And then the occasional drop out after a few hours. Of course I had an all in-ear band with no stage witches I mean wedges; when everything dropped out and I'm like oh shoot, I looked at the app to see that the AES connection dropped and started walking towards the stage and it kicked back in. Thankfully it's only a short 25 foot cable but I'm still trying to repeat the symptom.
❤ Thank You Mr. Rat
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I love yoyr content. You are a gem! But damn that Midas backround is busy!
Yeah,
Cheers Dave, neutrik have gone down the pan in the last ten years, powercon plugs and sockets go faulty very quickly, and the Xlr plugs feel lighter in weight to me, plastic clutch shoddy.
For the most part we are happy with Neutrik, The connectors they make are still the best choice and we've tested looked into other other options.
Sound tools is the largest purchaser of Neutrik connectors in North America!
They've been responsive as we inevitably come across issues.
I don't really blame them for this though I think they underestimated the importance of grounded shells
good to know thanx
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Imagine my disappointment when I bought your new SuperCat cable to be the end of my CAT-5 cable issues and the first thing I did was test continuity between shells…. I ended up sanding off the coating on the ends. Could you send me a pair of the new shells?
Absolutely, give a shout to warranty at soundtools.com
We are extremely interested in tracing every cable we sold that has the new style shell and we thought we contacted everyone that bought them and located them all but finding another is is helpful.
Did you get this sorted?
Interesting... Thanks 🙂 I personally hated the old black chromium finished shells, especially the 100pcs packs, because they always came with a slight oil film on, that turned your hands black handling them.
Yeah they weren't pretty and the nickel ones are actually really nice looking so it took us a bit of time to get our heads around at and whether customers would be upset that we stopped offering Black but The nickel is the way to go and one of the challenges was getting the message out.
The positive reaction to this video so far is really reinforcing the path we choose as the best one
@ You could think of a partial black powdercoating ... only that part of the shell, which is still visible, when the connector is plugged in. rest stays nickel. (and additionally other colors than black would be possible.... )
@ You could think of a partial black powdercoating ... only that part of the shell, which is still visible, when the connector is plugged in. rest stays nickel. (and additionally other colors than black would be possible.... )
Yeah, powder coat tends to chip. I think this KTM coating is a robust version of paint/powder coat. Perhaps som masking on the KTM.
But all in all, the nickel is clean, robust, and less likely to chip.
I'm ok with this
@ I'd like to try, if this black KTM coating could be removed (partially) by e.g. a Fiber or UV laser. not only to improve contact, but also to label the shells. But no money for that at the moment.
excellent mr Dave...
if i were in the neighborhood i'd volunteer for some chill soldering :)
Awesome and thank you!
Very intersting, I had no idea about this! For use cases where Black is still important (for optical reasons) but also conductivity: Why not only coat the connectors halfway?
Not sure, that would be a question for the manufacturer. I am guessing that would require masking and masking is kind of a pain to do. Also I don't know how this coding deals with an end to the coding. Does it peel back
Great video, on multiple levels. Would it also be effective to scratch off the black coating to the bare metal in cases where the black version is already in place?
Yeah I guess that could be done but that's messy and ugly. It's primarily a redundant ground so I think that effort would be better spent on ensuring the primary ground is intact and clean
@@DaveRat Totally agreed. We had an instance last year where a cable was used between a mixer and a stage box and it would periodically freeze both devices. We replaced with a standard ethernet line and didn't have issues, but was curious if maybe that had a little part. Was just a curious question, rather than one meant for long-term use.
I'm guessing there was another issue and cool cool
My concern would be that the removal of the coating might invite oxidation that it was otherwise inhibiting, in a similar way that the earlier plating provided.
Yeah, that could be an issue
I've always preferred the silver in terms of aesthetics.
I like them both but product wise, black always outsells nickel. So switching to nickel may hurt sales but quality of our products must not be compromised
@@DaveRat You can't argue with customer preference, although I would hope anyone buying from your company is more concerned with quality, reputation, and attention to detail, than to aesthetics. I can't believe I never thought of the finer details you describe here when I tone out F/UTP etherCON cables I build to ensure the drain wire is soldered well and is connected to the shell.
Agreed
Hi! Audio student here. I’ve heard that the fourth pen/shell should only be connected on ONE end of the cable and not both ends. Is this true? What do you do for your cables?
Do not connect the fourth pin to the shell unless you're doing recording work in a field and extending cables.
In fact the only time that connecting the fourth pin helps is when you're extending cables.
Everywhere else the shell gets grounded to the chassis of the gear or gets grounded to the shell of the microphone or DI box by the microphone or DI box or gear.
Earth ground and chassis ground are two separate grounds and keeping them separate is important.
If you ground the shells of an XLR you connect the two together and create ground loop issues in many situations
If nothing else....I learned how to say Neutrik properly finally!!!!!!!
Awesome
Does this change effect Neutrik Speakon connectors?
No, speaking are non metallic At the end of the vid I show some docs that list all the impacted products
i was trying to hook up an SD8 stage box to my X32 rack with (the recommended) STP cable (not EtherCon) at 150’. it did not like this AT ALL. i tested the cable every which way and it’s still functioning perfectly to this day as Ethernet for my X-Touch. but to get the stage box working i had to switch to EtherCon… i’m assuming the box wasn’t taking ground over the STP’s shield, but it’s been flawless ever since
Interesting. The ground in the shell and the shield are not required for it to function but the ethicon shell does a good job of keeping the RJ45 properly lined up to make better contact.
The shield or ground is only to protect from electrostatic discharge and actually makes it work less good.
In non electrostatic environments on shielded cables will perform better because they have lower capacitance than their shield did counterparts with the same internal guts
Can you scratch the coating off in the conductive area?
Perhaps, but that's messy and time consuming.
@ true. Just asking in case some stock can be used. Will be in the lookout for the glossy finish fer sher.
For most applications and indoor usage everything will be fine with the new shells. Keep in mind that shielded RJ45 cables have no shells at all And they work just fine.
That said, the conducting shells add a redundant ground which is useful for high stress and adverse environments.
In my analysis and opinion that redundant ground is beneficial enough for us that sound tools to standardize on it.
Am I reading that right that this change happened a year and a half ago?! So any new black Neutrik connector bought since then is most likely not conductive?
The changes are just coming through the pipeline in the last few months.
On the upside the nickel ones are cheaper on the downside they're not gonna be black and Match everything else.
I guess they're going after something else after they've done all the speak-on connectors.
I'm all for less chemicals polluting as well but they have to be replaced by comparable products.
And technically both of those wipers should really be connected that's just a cost saving, and some of those connectors break out to a second pin for the PCB and some don't.
Agreed
awesome integrity!!!
👍🤙👍
Would it be enough for Neutrik to, inhibit the coating where the ground wiper contacts?
Yeah I don't know the process but if it's anything like anodizing you have to mask anything that you don't want quoted and masking is a pain in the ass and raises costs and slows things down.
I think there's a similar challenge with powder coating.
I don't think they expected anyone to be overly concerned about it and I get the feeling their little surprised by the pushback from sound tools
It's quite possible that even up people push back on it hell rethink and revise
Just because they have a non-conductive coating on the outside does not mean they are not a part of the shield. Did you check to see if the paint blocks the connection on the inside of the connector shell?
I would scratch though the paint to see if the metal underneath is grounded.
Or just ask Neutrik.
Great point. Did you perhaps read the engineering releases from Neutrik that I posted at the end of the vid?
The shells are fully coated with the non conductive KTM coating nside and out.
My discussions with Neutrik were pretty thorough regarding the etherCON shell.
Did not discuss the XLR Shell specifically and don't currently have any of the new XLR versions
My biggest question is how the 4th tab on the XLR is dealt with. Does it no longer connect to anything? Does it somehow connect to the shell but the shells don't conduct to each other? Does the locking tab on the female XLR scratch freo7gh the KTM and connect?
Will dive in at some point
@ I apparently missed that. Sorry.
All good and great point
Just bought a 25ft SuperCAT 7 off Amazon and the Neutrik sheilds are black and conductive (and that kinda dirty black) so they must be the "older" version.
What is the actual risk with them being Chromium 6? Is this similar to lead paint where you can use it without issue so long as you dont eat it?
I think the chromium 6 issue to the best of my understanding has to do with manufacturing but not an issue after the product is done. And yes all of the sound tools products in the pipeline have the old version or will be nickel
@@DaveRat Thank you, Dave!
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@dave rat , isn't the inside of the barrel still conductive on the new KTM though? Since the inside of the barrel is what interfaces with the shield wiper, if the inside is conductive, the outside shouldn't matter....
Nope, the entire shell is coated. Did you by chance look at the engineering release documents I posted at the end of the video where they say that the shells are no longer conductive?
the same think happens with the neutrik black xlr ......
Yes, at the end of the video 8 show documents listing all the impacted products
lab gruppen fp6400 sounds better than crown xti 6002 ?. Please reply sir
Neutrik sent us 1000 shells and a big tub of blister cream for whoever has to swap them out.
Yeah it took some time, we started with just swapping the ones as they sold and then worked our way through the rest of the product
black heatshrink over the shell leaving space for conductivity to the socket?
I don't understand. The goal is to have conductivity not to get rid of it
@@DaveRat correct, not suggesting getting rid of conductivity, just hiding the shiny parts. Could also wrap with tape after connecting but that gets gummy.
Ahh, yes. Sound Tools does not make XLR and since sthercon are not extendable without a barrel which are black, typically the ethercon connections are not overly visible
Ok ... where did you get that Midas poster?..me wanty !
Ha! Take the picture and then printed it out on a high resolution printer we have.
I've been pondering printing out a few more. They're super fun!
@@DaveRat Wow .tis a thing of beauty ! .an extruded aluminium flight case frame would work nicely
@marxman00 yeah, 8 do need a frame
@ Im guessing you stitched many images together to have all the details flat without the pots eclipsing the detail.. or do you have a scanner that big ? Anyway a collection of life size pics of classic desks is something the world is missing ! or even printed fabric ones as desk dust covers .!
Single photo . Had someone lift me on a forklift over the console. It is printed on fabric using a giant photo quality printer
I wonder if black nitride is conductive..
Isn't black nitride for ferrous metals?.
The connector shells are not necessarily ferrous based though they are slightly magnetic there's not much ferrous metal in them.
Hello sir i am from india recently watched your lab gruppen fp6400 testing video. Now this time this amp worth of purchase in 2nd hand
I love chromium's high oxidation state chemistry .... so many cool and energetic reactions, although it's terrifyingly toxic ... wise move! :)
Yeah the fun stuff is usually dangerous!
Well. The viper of the RJ-45, is a duvke viper. It uses two springs pr side. And the "dummy" viper i guess i a Integration fault of the board connector. However i do not wish to make enemys, and having 2-3-4 connections is of course better. But! Doing analouge signalin over Cat cabeling is not the best way to do it. It is not made to transport human frequency signals, rather much much giher frequency ones.
so don't lick my black xlr shells then... thx dave
I don't even think the chromium 6 carries through into the final product. I think it's industrial waste during manufacture that is the issue.
You are supposed to have grounding in the twisted pairs.
The whole purpose of twisted pairs is to translint signal that cancels noise and to do so, neither of the wires in the twisted pairs can be grounded.
@DaveRat sorry you are correct. Its differential signalling. I was totally wrong.
All good and I appreciate the comment and this is what the channels all about is sharing information and perspectives and trying to figure out things that will be useful and understood
A novel idea. A connector without full connectivity. LOL
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It wasn't enough with lead free solder to ruin electronics reliability, now non conductive plating....
Maybe they are also planning RoHS cigarettes....or a new Tax for non RoHS Electronics....
I saw Your solder skills and I bet 1000 xlr's took You max 20 minutes, including cofee break.
Awesome and yeah I've done a bit of soldering. Hey just sit down for a few days at a time and solder on 176 pin 56 channel w4 connectors making main snakes and breakout tails while watching movies. Good times
Big deal for the old shit. May be a problem in the future.
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Neutrik strikes again.... 🤦♂️
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Thanks