I'm a broadcast engineer and I've recently discovered your channel and it's refreshing to watch someone be hands on with consoles when evaluating them instead of just reading off a data sheet. It's also amazing to see you use scientific methods to compare different products or to demonstrate the audio engineering principles.
Just recieved a new M32R Live a month ago. First thing I had to do was to open it and remove two spare screws and a pcb standoff rattling around inside the console. Managed to put it together again without problems. 😆 Thanks for sharing your knowledge! Always learning a bunch of stuff.
Thanks Dave for ripping those apart for us to see the difference… I have used both and wondered myself. I have watched your videos for years.. I appreciate you:)
Dave I'm a bit OCD when it comes to screws - my pulse was going up as you were tearing down! :-D In addition to the fader differences which you pointed out, I do see a large difference in the materials quality and components between the two consoles. On the output board, the Midas uses larger and faster Xilinx chips, and the XLR jacks look to be higher quality with better contact wiring to the PCB (at least from the photos ). I'm not an IC designer but there seem to be more redundant components built into the input board. Fun to see the comparison - thanks for all of your teaching, I've learned a lot from you over the years!
I've had poor experiences with X32 motor faders when the boards were first release; a band wanted me to preset their monitor mixes for an Asian tour that they couldn't bring a monitor tech for. I went through 3 consoles before I found one that worked without issues. I'd trust the A&H much more. Not as sexy, but much more solid in my experience. Great video Dave, always appreciated!
A couple years ago the bands came off 2 of the faders on our M32. Having been inside our Midas XL200 numerous times I figurered I would try to tackle this. I could find no videos or info on getting into an M32 but several on the x32. They almost pursuaded me not to proceed. But I needed the console for some immediate shows. It was less painful than I expected but it would have been nice if they had made the ribbon cables a little bit longer. The way the board hinges back you would not have remove it and therefore not have to undo all the cables ...if they were just a little longer. The faders were mounted in sections of 8 to a board that was then mounted to the frame. Easy peasy. I had bought some faders not knowing in advance what to expect. I got some of the x32 faders by mistake (should have known when a pack of 5 cost the same as a pack of 1 m32) They were indeed vastly different. I just hope I never have to fix a loose band on our x32, because it will become surplus gear at that moment.
I had to take apart my Behringer x-32 once. one of the faders was slipping all I had to do was readjust the drive band back onto the fader mechanism. Awesome videos, so glad to have all this info at my disposal for these units. I want to get an analog console, I live in Baltimore, and the API is not too far away from where I live. I have actually work for PRS now too since july. wish I could get a sweet deal on The box console they have or something or something
Another great video! Interestingly enough, I think I've used around 8 or 9 X32s (including my own old beater and the one owned by the band I currently mons for) and 4 M32s since they came out. Out of the 4 well looked after and flightcased rental M32s, 3 had at least one fader with an issue. The X32? Apart from the entire set of faders being slightly off calibration on several boards, absolutely no problems! At least Avid made their 'consumable item' faders easy to swap out!
Obviously I've wanted to take apart my new M32R just to see the inside. This is close enough! Thanks for saving me the hassle of trying to remember how to put it back together Dave!
Thanks, Dave. I was wondering if you may have happened to look at the power supply modules in the two and possibly compare them? A likely source for noise in my experience. You probably got the biggest and most dramatic difference being the faders which pointed out in the video. Just curious what the power supplies might be able to tell us regarding their efficiency, type and perhaps different manufacturing methods, if any. Thanks again, man. I appreciate your posts and enjoy watching them whenever I am not out at a gig or working in our warehouse maintaining equipment. Cheers.
I love this! Looks like a savage when he drops the screwdriver inside and takes on to the big set of shears and goes for some ribbon cables... Only to cut the cable ties, of course :) It hurt a little when he set down the cordless drill on the inside pcb, tho.
Right off the bat I can see that on the Midas you would be able to replace "some" of the components (not all) if say a transistor or cap blew. Behringer looks like strictly motherboard topology and therefore it's a bit harder to repair (disposable). The similarities inside of the two boards is surprising though given the price difference. This is a great video and it does bring a lot of truth to light in terms of what we are spending the money on!!
It's the TEN year warranty you get with the M32 versus the THREE Year (or one year if you don't register your console) that makes a huge difference too. Still waiting to get our X32 fixed (out of warranty) so we picked up an M32 because of that warranty. My ears aren't good enough to tell the difference between the two but when the X32 is fixed I will be glad to have a backup.
Ha! I used to work at Hughes Aircraft and when handling cmos and other sensitive parts we would static protect. Once chips and gear is mounted, rarely does it need static protection, especially with the low tech of audio we are dealing with. For a company to implement a fragile and static sensitive temperamental and prone to failure part, it really miss warrant some strong advantages. In other words, if we have to be that careful, we probably don't want to use that gear.
Maybe at some point. I try and focus on controversies, misunderstandings and info of useful value. The m32 x32 vid was to clear up some of the mess of inaccurate beliefs. The digico open was to show contrast to the x32 I guess I could look at wing vs x32 but I've not really heard a lot of chatter or mis information about the wing
Love my x32 compact. It does everything my home studio needs. The A&H zed r16 it replaced died on the FireWire after 9 years but not many hours. I can't really see any need to upgrade or regret not getting the Midas. Sounds good to my old ears and all those effects and processing get me pretty good results. I do use an ISA 1 pre though which is way better than the onboard preamps but you would hope so for the money.
Top notch video 👍🏼 I was very impressed and interested to know what the differences were between the two processors of each console. I've been mixing for quite some time and have used both the X32 & M32 to my ears the M32 sounds more open and transparent and I'm sure the community will agree that there's enough arguments to be made between the two.
My understanding is that once the signal is converted to digital, the consoles are the same. The differences are in the build quality, the analog circuitry and the d to a converters
Interesting to see the differences on the output board, the Behringer seems to be using standard off-the-shelf parts while Midas went with Xilinx FPGAs probably to implement some custom logic, that right there is going to have a major impact on cost, FPGAs are cool but definitely not cheap
I’m pretty sure it’s a clever retrofit to keep the same processing core application. The X32 output card uses an 8 channel D/A and the M32 looks like dual channel. The older/lower grade FPGAs are actually quite affordable these days so it may essentially just be a TDM multiplexer from the core 8 channel serial audio to 4 separate 2 channel streams.
the chasse mounted faders are also a big deal for longevity of the board as well. if you spill a drink and only fry 2 faders that are a part of the board, you need to replace the whole board. If you fry half of the faders that are attached to the board, they can be swapped out. I want to start looking for broken M32's to buy for cheap now!
Not necessarily. I've replaced individual board mount faders many times. You don't need to trash the whole board. However... depending on how they design said circuit board (sectional or monolithic), it is somewhere between a huge PITA and a royal PITA to do it. Soooo many f***ing knobs/screws/spacers/shaft nuts to remove and reinstall. Those Midas faders are "Feild Replaceable", ZERO board removal. Pop the connector, unscrew the bad fader, pop in new one. 2 minutes (once case is open) That's EVERYTHING if you're touring. YMMV. 🙂
@@jeremyhelm2833 I have 2 versions of the Behringer MX2832 mixer. The original one came with an external power supply, a 19" chunky piece. However, this desk died a while back (after about 12 years) and I'm assuming the PSU is to blame. It did develop scrachy faders over time. I'd like to get it fixed up, the only thing putting me off is pulling off all those friggin knobs, nuts and spacers!
@@Axl_Pose MX2832... HA HA HA !!! That is EXACTLY the board I have nightmares about being a royal PITA !! I only laugh with sympathy. I have a 2832. Mine has the rack PS. I only used it as a line summing mixer (in a closet now). For that, it can sound fine... when the f***ing faders are working !!! If memory is correct... that unit is comprised of a series of 8 channel PCB sections, cascaded (series) by ribbon jumpers. Of course, mine had at least one bad fader per section so I had to disassemble the entire thing. I used a cordless drill with nut driver adapter to remove the 7 million effing nuts/washers. There is no way anyone would ever do that on the road 20 minutes before the band goes on. I'd just try to make the broken one work with an external power supply. You could probably find a cheap external PS on ebay. Most consumer/semi-pro consoles use similar power supplies... +18v, -18v, +5 digital, +5 analog, maybe a -5. something like that. good luck
Nice to see I made a good choice. I needed something inexpensive to guerrilla record bands, that allowed me to record direct into Pro-Tools. The outputs are pretty good for outputting DIs to reamp. I spent the last two weekends doing that and had great success. I've got a Midas M32R, and it has done right by me. I have noticed a lot of the things you've pointed out. While recording loud rock music it is very easy to hit clipping on the Master Fader. I used this to do sound for a blues rock band and had to really watch my levels overall. If I were to do it all over again I would probably save and get an analog board to do live sound. I really do like the pre- on this board though. Eventually I'll transition to nicer preamps and a better A/D-D/A. Cool tear down brother!
What I found when it comes to moisture on the control surface of the M32 is not so much the faders but the PC board mounted connectors that the scribble strips attach to. They soak up moisture like sponges and they way you know you have a problem is that the scribble strips stop working. In that case its best to replace the entire 8 channel board to resolve your problem. Pretty easy job once you got the hood up.
Excellent video Dave, great to finally see the guts of a $5-6k digital desk. I have the A&H QU32 which I’d imagine would be very similar. Although an A&H 32 or 24 would be great to see too, just for the architecture of the thing and the “Drink Proof” test !. thanks again, enjoy your videos and insight immensely 🤘
Fader 9 on my Midas m32 is acting weird now. It kind of locks into 4 positions and is stiff until it reaches them.Hoping its just the belt slipped off again like the x32. I'm thinking the fader got moved when it was stereo linked and forced it off track or something. I'm hoping its not hash or somthig that dropped down in there lol 😂😂,i try not to do that. Not looking forward to pulling the desk apart.but maybe its not a bad idea to have a spare fader or two lying around. Its been incredible reliable. My x32 was too and my friends dad I helped do live sound for years x32 was a tank as well. he got a nice acrylic cover for his behringer but i never found one like that for the m32 i always wanted one. I only use mine for my small studio and never move it and its all accessible via my patchbay.
If it locks in 4 positions it sounds like some debris is on the pulley wheel and the fader gets stick every time the debris hits the belt when the wheel spins
I had an X32 and added the Midas 32 channel snake head to the system, which made a significant difference ( and my ears are not that great! lol). I ended up with an M32R as control surface and sold the x32. I also use an MR18 occasionally, which is very cool also.
We run hybrid using m32 plus boxes to do most heavy lifting in a project studio Once we upgrade it will become touring rig what it’s actually intended for 🤣 Did just dive into 500series tho
Thanks. I've used both boards in churches and in a noisy environment I haven't seen much difference. But the durability issue may show up after 5 years or so.
Hi! I need a piece of advise if you don't mind 🙂 I'm fixing Behringer xr18 with the input problem: some inputs lack sensivity and/or lack a high friquency range. I've replaced blown capacitors on power supply unit as well as thouse on a preamp board but it din't fix the issue :-( Could you be so kind to throw an idea what else could it be?
Oh my, I have not worked on fixing one. Not sure other than getting an oscilloscope and driving a good and bad channel and looking for differences in the signal at various points in the circuit
The law of diminishing returns is very important when it comes to gear quality. I remember buying plastic lenses for my camera, optically they are the same but if you drop them there is a chance they will break sooner than metal lenses. Sometimes I like to pay premium for an overall superior product, but sometimes I do not pay more if the difference is not audible in a blind test.
🤙👍🤙 widening the focus to look beyond pure function and also include durability, longevity, aesthetics, resale value, size, weight, cost, warranty and dependability is important
Hi Dave, nice video. As You proberly know, Midas has come out with the "new" Live versions with rubber buttons. Can You tell if the old buttons (mute/select) are replaceable with new rubber ? That the pcb's are the same but only the button-casing and buttons are different? Would have been nice if You made a video of that.
5:36 The preamp boards look like they are a pretty similar size, I wonder if it would be possible to swap the M32 pre-amps into an x32 or vice versa? Thinking get out of a tight situation or save a few quid buying an M32 and s32 stage box, then swap the nicer analogue boards into the S32 to use them on stage. Maybe another side project for the future?
Currently remembering a Penny & Giles ad in one of the broadcast trade magazines that we got 20 copies of each month at my old college station, with the huge tag line "SPILL COFFEE IN OUR FADERS". IIRC, conductive plastic was relatively new at the time, and a 100mm P&G fader (non motorized of course) would run you something like $120 in 1982 dollars. So 25 of them things in current dollars would add up to more than the cost of an X32!
Hi Dave, the contacts on the removable buttons may be the same, but longevity and durability of the circuit boards is EXTREMELY different. The behringer looks like phenolic PCBs whose contacts won't hold up as well as the gold plated copper contacts on the FR4 circuit boards in the Midas.
Hi Dave you have forgot to see which type of converters are used on two consoles, probably are the same but the final letters usually specify a different selection, more and less noisy, try to keep this info zooming on photos, cool cool😉
I just got one of your XLR Sniffer/Sender units. I am currently working with a fully installed system where they have about 30 XLR cables that 'magically' appear near the sound console, and are both ran into the wall, up the wall, and out a hole to continue their path to the stage some 75 feet forward and then another 25 feet down the back of the stage wall. None of these cables are labeled. They also have a digital stage box. The ability to plug this device of yours into the XLR cables is going to allow me to identify about a half a dozen lines that I have no idea where they go. Sound people come and go, and keep adding lines, and modifying things. Trying to just get control of everything.
Dave, I really appreciate you taking the time to do a deep dive and see what's under the hood for us. I'm very surprised to see true "Midas Pro" faders in the m32. I knew that console was advertised as having them, but I wasn't 100% convinced. I've used various m32s for countless shows at several venues in town, and have also had the joy of mixing on a Pro2 at my full time job for the past year. I had always felt like the Pro2 faders felt more precise, but after opening it up to re-align a belt, I can tell you the m32 faders look identical! I'm sure you've been in your fair share of Pro series consoles though, I'm curious if you have a similar opinion on fader feel. Regarding the Pro2, it's been replaced after 9 years of service, by an Allen & Heath dLive system. Several fader issues, and the fact that Midas no longer sells replacements, were part of the reason we upgraded. So far, the dLive has been a treat to work with. I'd also love to hear if you have any experience with those systems, and any pointers you might offer given the leap in processing capabilities and options! Thank you!
Thanks for the excellent demo! There is always a reason why Behringer is a bit cheaper. How would you compare these two against the Yamaha DM3 (or the DM3 Dante)? If we of course forget about the number of I/Os. We are looking for a mixer to have in the practise place as a recording and mixing machine for a pop, rock, metal style gig. To be able to record sessions of lets say 3-7 players. We were thinking of the DM3 as it is really small and offers quite a lot for the price. Would you say a Midas M32R Live (or Presonus StudioLive 32SC for example) would be more suitable, offer any real advantages that we would urgently need for our purpose? We are thinking of using a DAW on a laptop for recording and mixing. Thanks
To many factors to give advice but I would consider things like Client perception, resale value, industry acceptance, capabilities, size, weight, cost, reliability, manufacturer reputation, ergonomics and ease of use, repairability, and company customer support to name a few. Create your list, prioritize the factors and then plug in the aspects of the gear under consideration.
With the issues that AES50 has (the pops etc) with different cables and lengths, I’m curious if you looked at that connection point, circuit board, etc while you were dissecting
Hey Dave great stuff, I think we may have met at the Iridium once but not sure, Alt J Front and Center show maybe? Would love a video on how the M32 AD converts 192k to 48k and then back to 192k DA. I have a M32r. Always wondered how via the USB card my Mac can play things at 96k or what ever sample rate via lossless audio on Apple Music and the console is just able to truncate / convert it to 48k on the fly as that is the boards interenal master clock setting. You would think it would error and say it’s the wrong sample rate/ clock but the board or the Mac is somehow able to stream it at 48k no matter the incoming sample rate from the computer to the usb sound card. Subbed to your channel, thanks.
The X32 would have noisier analog outputs, cheaper faders, And you have to stand up higher to see the screen. Oh and slightly more latency but that's really not that big of a deal. And you can't rent it for quite as much money
@@DaveRat Thanks Dave! what do you think will be the next m32/x32 mixer that’s used as widespread and around that price point? has it been made yet? also what is your opinion on 48k vs higher mixers? maybe a new video idea?
I don't know what the next low cost popular mixing will be. As far as 48k versus higher, One advantage of the higher rates is lower latency. Especially for things like in ears that lower latency is advantageous. Having the wider frequency response only really matters if you have a really high quality sound system where it may be audible. Or if you do a lot of mucking around with the signal and have quality degradation, starting with a higher quality signal may leave you with a better outcome
@@DaveRat ok thanks, it’s crazy after 12 years they still haven’t even done a V2 with more dsp or inputs or fx or something I’ve been on the platform for a while but just purchased a brand new m32 couple of days ago and it feels weird buying something that’s essentially the same as 2012
Dude, you really need to spend the money and invest in a lavalier lapel microphone. You have a lot of great experience and info to share, and when you walk away from the table we can barely hear you at times 😊😊
I have high quality wireless lavalier mics I just don't like to wear them. Put my recollection, The sound gets lower but it wasn't that hard to hear what I was saying. Maybe your speakers are not great?
Hello and thank you for this video. 👍 do you think it is possible that Behringer made "deep savings" and modifications between the original m32 and the M32live? Thanks
I can totally attest to the quality of the Midas faders. In 2017 I took out my brand new M32r for the first time mixing both support bands on tour with Cannibal Corpse. Towards the end of the second set at summit music hall I took a full Mikes Hard lemonade tall can to the face. I mean this person had to really try and MAN, BULLSEYE! Anyways, it dumped straight into fader bank 1-8. I got up asap, grabbed the can but easily 10oz of liquid already poured into the desk. Faders 4-8 started jumping, finished the show just muting when they’d jump. After I tilted it up and slowly dripped what was left out, turned it back and blew compressed air through the faders to try and get any liquid still there out. Didn’t use it the next day, kept in the case with a bunch of silica packets. Day 2 had to carefully clean some sticky shit out of some buttons and exercise a couple faders. Day 3 opened it up, tried it out, powered on and we were all good 5 years later still throwing delays with those same jumping faders. Well worth the price jump.
Just out of curiosity...Did this happen before or after the Portland, OR stop on that tour? I recall having some mysterious cat5 drop out from the stage box during gatecreeper's set at the hawthorne.
@@jasperwasson4963 I don’t remember which was first in the routing but I do remember that day all too well as the day I learned to never trust the house cabling! If I’m correct, you had a sketchy old white ungrounded data cable that I mistakenly ran my show off of instead of my snake. Don’t worry, it won’t happen again! See you in April! :)
That's curious to me on the M32 on the output board; that big square chip from Xylinx is probably an FPGA and one, they're not cheap, two, someone needs to write a substantial amount of software code to run on it, and three, what is it used for? Is there some real-time processing the midas can do on the outputs?
I don't know the specifics but there are people here that have commented that are quite knowledgeable. Maybe scan the comments and reach out to one or more of them and they will probably know the answer.
hi man. any change to compare the berhinger wing against midas m32 or behringer x32?? In any case, a behringer wing test would be great for quality like noise, etc
In December 2009, Midas and Klark Teknik were acquired by Music Group, a holding company chaired by Uli Behringer. Music Group was later rebranded as Music Tribe
Sir How to Manage 2 Type Sub. I mean 2 /3 types bass reflex sub , example - 1) Front Loaded 2) Hornload 2) Revers speaker sub In one venue. How to manage it
Is there a difference with the scribble strips? I've never used an X32, but the M32 that I've used a few times seems to have scribble strips that are mounted at different "levels" when viewed from the top. In other words, it appears that some strips sit higher up off their board than others. I feel certain it's never been damaged or repaired, so not sure why. But, it appears to be built cheap, at least with the scribble strip displays.
Interesting stuff. Don't know exactly how I got here. Living most of life on the electrical engineering side of my brain I have some insight though. The cost delta is going to be cumulative. However manufacturing process tends to be the most significant. A product that can utilize surface mount and thus pick place machines is going to be more inexpensive provided there are a decent number to be manufactured. Even those minimum volume levels are dropping every year. Yes pick and place is used on through hole boards, but the boards requires all of those precision holes, and a solder wave flow. Higher component rejection rates due to bent pins (all resulting in higher costs). I see in the comments below there is a SNR delta between these units. I would estimate that has more to do with board layout, and possible cumulative effects of ever so slightly reduced component selection. Of course there is always the battle of diminishing returns. The first 80% of a spec is cost effective. The last 20% is exponentially more expensive as each percent is retired. Neat stuff you have here Dave. I might just wander around here a bit. I promise not to touch anything ;-)
We are having an issue with our M32 where when we power it on, the main display and the scribble strips don’t come on, and it doesn’t pass signal or really do anything. I have heard power supply issue, ribbon cable issue, motherboard, etc. What do you think? Not sure I feel comfortable opening it up like you did, but then again, I don’t want to send to music tribe for them to hold it for 6-12 months…
No one else would have been willing to do this kind of a tear down. Thank you.
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I'm a broadcast engineer and I've recently discovered your channel and it's refreshing to watch someone be hands on with consoles when evaluating them instead of just reading off a data sheet. It's also amazing to see you use scientific methods to compare different products or to demonstrate the audio engineering principles.
You don’t know who Dave Rat is?🤭
Thank you Plamenramen and great to meet ya!
@@hugoheredero4840-Not all broadcast engineers do a ton of live sound... :-)
pretty good for someone that can speak so calmly and work so fast tearing it apart
Ha!! Yeah I thought the somewhat disjointed speed and speech would be fun
Just recieved a new M32R Live a month ago. First thing I had to do was to open it and remove two spare screws and a pcb standoff rattling around inside the console. Managed to put it together again without problems. 😆
Thanks for sharing your knowledge! Always learning a bunch of stuff.
Oh no! Cool ya sorted it
Well done! I own an X32 and always been curious about the actual difference between this two. Wonderful video. Tks!
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Thanks Dave for ripping those apart for us to see the difference… I have used both and wondered myself. I have watched your videos for years.. I appreciate you:)
👍👍 thank you!
Best comparison between those two mixers I've ever seen one YT, explains a lot! Thank you Sir 👌
Thank you!!
Thanks for this series man! I'm grateful that you are helping out us lil peeps who still mix in small clubs and churches.
Thank you Michael!
Dave is an industry genius. Another amazing video from the Master.
Humbled
Dave I'm a bit OCD when it comes to screws - my pulse was going up as you were tearing down! :-D In addition to the fader differences which you pointed out, I do see a large difference in the materials quality and components between the two consoles. On the output board, the Midas uses larger and faster Xilinx chips, and the XLR jacks look to be higher quality with better contact wiring to the PCB (at least from the photos ). I'm not an IC designer but there seem to be more redundant components built into the input board. Fun to see the comparison - thanks for all of your teaching, I've learned a lot from you over the years!
Ha! Yes, am fast and loose with screwing around!
Amazing comparison. Not to mention the hand speed in dismantling these is the stuff of legend.
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thanks for taking the plunge, dave. what a project! been looking forward to this one for a long time, very well done.
Cool cool!
I've had poor experiences with X32 motor faders when the boards were first release; a band wanted me to preset their monitor mixes for an Asian tour that they couldn't bring a monitor tech for. I went through 3 consoles before I found one that worked without issues. I'd trust the A&H much more. Not as sexy, but much more solid in my experience.
Great video Dave, always appreciated!
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Very very cool presentation of these 2 popular boards.
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"Ohhh how do I get in here? Maybe I should force it"
You are a legend! Love this video! Thanks so much.
Ha, thank you!
wonderful video Dave. I really appreciate you taking the time and effort to make this video to show the differences between M32 and X32
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A couple years ago the bands came off 2 of the faders on our M32. Having been inside our Midas XL200 numerous times I figurered I would try to tackle this. I could find no videos or info on getting into an M32 but several on the x32. They almost pursuaded me not to proceed. But I needed the console for some immediate shows. It was less painful than I expected but it would have been nice if they had made the ribbon cables a little bit longer. The way the board hinges back you would not have remove it and therefore not have to undo all the cables ...if they were just a little longer. The faders were mounted in sections of 8 to a board that was then mounted to the frame. Easy peasy. I had bought some faders not knowing in advance what to expect. I got some of the x32 faders by mistake (should have known when a pack of 5 cost the same as a pack of 1 m32) They were indeed vastly different. I just hope I never have to fix a loose band on our x32, because it will become surplus gear at that moment.
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I had to take apart my Behringer x-32 once. one of the faders was slipping all I had to do was readjust the drive band back onto the fader mechanism. Awesome videos, so glad to have all this info at my disposal for these units. I want to get an analog console, I live in Baltimore, and the API is not too far away from where I live. I have actually work for PRS now too since july. wish I could get a sweet deal on The box console they have or something or something
Cool cool Jonathan
Another great video! Interestingly enough, I think I've used around 8 or 9 X32s (including my own old beater and the one owned by the band I currently mons for) and 4 M32s since they came out. Out of the 4 well looked after and flightcased rental M32s, 3 had at least one fader with an issue. The X32? Apart from the entire set of faders being slightly off calibration on several boards, absolutely no problems!
At least Avid made their 'consumable item' faders easy to swap out!
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Obviously I've wanted to take apart my new M32R just to see the inside. This is close enough! Thanks for saving me the hassle of trying to remember how to put it back together Dave!
Dave, your videos are the most relevant videos for a pro audio engineer that I’ve come across on the net. Thank you for your service my brother 🤙😎
Daniel, much appreciated and thank you!
Working for an electronics manufacturer (pick and place surface mount machine op) irs like being back in work!! Still fascinating tho... cheers Dave 😊
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I want to see the video of them being put back together 👀🤣😂
Nice work Dave - invaluable content 🤘🤘
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Thanks, Dave. I was wondering if you may have happened to look at the power supply modules in the two and possibly compare them? A likely source for noise in my experience. You probably got the biggest and most dramatic difference being the faders which pointed out in the video. Just curious what the power supplies might be able to tell us regarding their efficiency, type and perhaps different manufacturing methods, if any. Thanks again, man. I appreciate your posts and enjoy watching them whenever I am not out at a gig or working in our warehouse maintaining equipment. Cheers.
I did look and have some pics, did not remove the covers to see the differences
I love this! Looks like a savage when he drops the screwdriver inside and takes on to the big set of shears and goes for some ribbon cables... Only to cut the cable ties, of course :)
It hurt a little when he set down the cordless drill on the inside pcb, tho.
Got to keep it fun and reckless!
Right off the bat I can see that on the Midas you would be able to replace "some" of the components (not all) if say a transistor or cap blew. Behringer looks like strictly motherboard topology and therefore it's a bit harder to repair (disposable). The similarities inside of the two boards is surprising though given the price difference.
This is a great video and it does bring a lot of truth to light in terms of what we are spending the money on!!
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Home reworking smd is nothing to shy away from. As with most things the right tools make it possible.
Agreed
It's the TEN year warranty you get with the M32 versus the THREE Year (or one year if you don't register your console) that makes a huge difference too. Still waiting to get our X32 fixed (out of warranty) so we picked up an M32 because of that warranty. My ears aren't good enough to tell the difference between the two but when the X32 is fixed I will be glad to have a backup.
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I wear a static wrist band, and take pics of ribbons whenever doing this crazey work. Go fearless Dave!
Ha! I used to work at Hughes Aircraft and when handling cmos and other sensitive parts we would static protect.
Once chips and gear is mounted, rarely does it need static protection, especially with the low tech of audio we are dealing with.
For a company to implement a fragile and static sensitive temperamental and prone to failure part, it really miss warrant some strong advantages.
In other words, if we have to be that careful, we probably don't want to use that gear.
@@DaveRat How and when do you replace memory batteries? Thanks Dave.
Hey Dave, great videos. I always enjoy watching the content you provide. Just curiuos when are you going to look inside the Behringer Wing?
Maybe at some point. I try and focus on controversies, misunderstandings and info of useful value.
The m32 x32 vid was to clear up some of the mess of inaccurate beliefs.
The digico open was to show contrast to the x32
I guess I could look at wing vs x32 but I've not really heard a lot of chatter or mis information about the wing
Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm from China. You did something I didn't dare to try. You let me know the real structure inside. You're great!
Wonderful and thank you! I am happy and surprised at the positive response to this video!
Love my x32 compact. It does everything my home studio needs. The A&H zed r16 it replaced died on the FireWire after 9 years but not many hours. I can't really see any need to upgrade or regret not getting the Midas. Sounds good to my old ears and all those effects and processing get me pretty good results. I do use an ISA 1 pre though which is way better than the onboard preamps but you would hope so for the money.
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Top notch video 👍🏼 I was very impressed and interested to know what the differences were between the two processors of each console. I've been mixing for quite some time and have used both the X32 & M32 to my ears the M32 sounds more open and transparent and I'm sure the community will agree that there's enough arguments to be made between the two.
My understanding is that once the signal is converted to digital, the consoles are the same.
The differences are in the build quality, the analog circuitry and the d to a converters
@@DaveRat thanks again
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Interesting to see the differences on the output board, the Behringer seems to be using standard off-the-shelf parts while Midas went with Xilinx FPGAs probably to implement some custom logic, that right there is going to have a major impact on cost, FPGAs are cool but definitely not cheap
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I’m pretty sure it’s a clever retrofit to keep the same processing core application. The X32 output card uses an 8 channel D/A and the M32 looks like dual channel. The older/lower grade FPGAs are actually quite affordable these days so it may essentially just be a TDM multiplexer from the core 8 channel serial audio to 4 separate 2 channel streams.
Excellent video! I was wondering if the difference in price was justified by the build quality.
the chasse mounted faders are also a big deal for longevity of the board as well. if you spill a drink and only fry 2 faders that are a part of the board, you need to replace the whole board. If you fry half of the faders that are attached to the board, they can be swapped out. I want to start looking for broken M32's to buy for cheap now!
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Not necessarily. I've replaced individual board mount faders many times. You don't need to trash the whole board. However... depending on how they design said circuit board (sectional or monolithic), it is somewhere between a huge PITA and a royal PITA to do it. Soooo many f***ing knobs/screws/spacers/shaft nuts to remove and reinstall. Those Midas faders are "Feild Replaceable", ZERO board removal. Pop the connector, unscrew the bad fader, pop in new one. 2 minutes (once case is open) That's EVERYTHING if you're touring. YMMV. 🙂
@@jeremyhelm2833 I have 2 versions of the Behringer MX2832 mixer. The original one came with an external power supply, a 19" chunky piece. However, this desk died a while back (after about 12 years) and I'm assuming the PSU is to blame. It did develop scrachy faders over time. I'd like to get it fixed up, the only thing putting me off is pulling off all those friggin knobs, nuts and spacers!
@@Axl_Pose MX2832... HA HA HA !!! That is EXACTLY the board I have nightmares about being a royal PITA !! I only laugh with sympathy. I have a 2832. Mine has the rack PS. I only used it as a line summing mixer (in a closet now). For that, it can sound fine... when the f***ing faders are working !!! If memory is correct... that unit is comprised of a series of 8 channel PCB sections, cascaded (series) by ribbon jumpers. Of course, mine had at least one bad fader per section so I had to disassemble the entire thing. I used a cordless drill with nut driver adapter to remove the 7 million effing nuts/washers. There is no way anyone would ever do that on the road 20 minutes before the band goes on. I'd just try to make the broken one work with an external power supply. You could probably find a cheap external PS on ebay. Most consumer/semi-pro consoles use similar power supplies... +18v, -18v, +5 digital, +5 analog, maybe a -5. something like that. good luck
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Nice to see I made a good choice. I needed something inexpensive to guerrilla record bands, that allowed me to record direct into Pro-Tools. The outputs are pretty good for outputting DIs to reamp. I spent the last two weekends doing that and had great success. I've got a Midas M32R, and it has done right by me. I have noticed a lot of the things you've pointed out. While recording loud rock music it is very easy to hit clipping on the Master Fader. I used this to do sound for a blues rock band and had to really watch my levels overall. If I were to do it all over again I would probably save and get an analog board to do live sound. I really do like the pre- on this board though. Eventually I'll transition to nicer preamps and a better A/D-D/A. Cool tear down brother!
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Wow they're much more different than I expected!
What I found when it comes to moisture on the control surface of the M32 is not so much the faders but the PC board mounted connectors that the scribble strips attach to. They soak up moisture like sponges and they way you know you have a problem is that the scribble strips stop working. In that case its best to replace the entire 8 channel board to resolve your problem.
Pretty easy job once you got the hood up.
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Just found your channel. Cool video and also, at the end I could hear you playing with the low frequency tones and that just cracked me up lol.
Speaker test and sub lows are always good for a smile
Thank you for the great video and the unique approach to comparing two pieces of gear - very informative!
Thank you Steven!
Excellent video Dave, great to finally see the guts of a $5-6k digital desk. I have the A&H QU32 which I’d imagine would be very similar. Although an A&H 32 or 24 would be great to see too, just for the architecture of the thing and the “Drink Proof” test !. thanks again, enjoy your videos and insight immensely 🤘
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Very good comparison. Thanks man. Was wondering about preamp comarison. Are they the same?
Fader 9 on my Midas m32 is acting weird now. It kind of locks into 4 positions and is stiff until it reaches them.Hoping its just the belt slipped off again like the x32. I'm thinking the fader got moved when it was stereo linked and forced it off track or something. I'm hoping its not hash or somthig that dropped down in there lol 😂😂,i try not to do that. Not looking forward to pulling the desk apart.but maybe its not a bad idea to have a spare fader or two lying around. Its been incredible reliable. My x32 was too and my friends dad I helped do live sound for years x32 was a tank as well. he got a nice acrylic cover for his behringer but i never found one like that for the m32 i always wanted one. I only use mine for my small studio and never move it and its all accessible via my patchbay.
If it locks in 4 positions it sounds like some debris is on the pulley wheel and the fader gets stick every time the debris hits the belt when the wheel spins
@@DaveRat Right on dude, That seems very plausible Thank you!
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I had an X32 and added the Midas 32 channel snake head to the system, which made a significant difference ( and my ears are not that great! lol). I ended up with an M32R as control surface and sold the x32. I also use an MR18 occasionally, which is very cool also.
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We run hybrid using m32 plus boxes to do most heavy lifting in a project studio
Once we upgrade it will become touring rig what it’s actually intended for 🤣
Did just dive into 500series tho
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I love taking gear to bits, well done Dave 🙂
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Thanks. I've used both boards in churches and in a noisy environment I haven't seen much difference. But the durability issue may show up after 5 years or so.
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Hi! I need a piece of advise if you don't mind 🙂
I'm fixing Behringer xr18 with the input problem: some inputs lack sensivity and/or lack a high friquency range. I've replaced blown capacitors on power supply unit as well as thouse on a preamp board but it din't fix the issue :-( Could you be so kind to throw an idea what else could it be?
Oh my, I have not worked on fixing one. Not sure other than getting an oscilloscope and driving a good and bad channel and looking for differences in the signal at various points in the circuit
The law of diminishing returns is very important when it comes to gear quality. I remember buying plastic lenses for my camera, optically they are the same but if you drop them there is a chance they will break sooner than metal lenses.
Sometimes I like to pay premium for an overall superior product, but sometimes I do not pay more if the difference is not audible in a blind test.
🤙👍🤙 widening the focus to look beyond pure function and also include durability, longevity, aesthetics, resale value, size, weight, cost, warranty and dependability is important
Great video! Another check you can make would be which opamps were used and of course most importantly if the used the sam ADC and DAC ic's
The op amps appears to be the same. The d to a is different, not sure on the a to d
I glanced away and back again and you were using scissors and I thought for a moment you were cutting ribbon cables! :)
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Hi Dave, nice video. As You proberly know, Midas has come out with the "new" Live versions with rubber buttons. Can You tell if the old buttons (mute/select) are replaceable with new rubber ? That the pcb's are the same but only the button-casing and buttons are different? Would have been nice if You made a video of that.
5:36 The preamp boards look like they are a pretty similar size, I wonder if it would be possible to swap the M32 pre-amps into an x32 or vice versa? Thinking get out of a tight situation or save a few quid buying an M32 and s32 stage box, then swap the nicer analogue boards into the S32 to use them on stage. Maybe another side project for the future?
Love the cordless drill sounds dubbed in. Cute. 🤗
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jeeezzzzz...those sub sweeps realy got me at the end
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Currently remembering a Penny & Giles ad in one of the broadcast trade magazines that we got 20 copies of each month at my old college station, with the huge tag line "SPILL COFFEE IN OUR FADERS". IIRC, conductive plastic was relatively new at the time, and a 100mm P&G fader (non motorized of course) would run you something like $120 in 1982 dollars. So 25 of them things in current dollars would add up to more than the cost of an X32!
Good stuff
Hi Dave, the contacts on the removable buttons may be the same, but longevity and durability of the circuit boards is EXTREMELY different. The behringer looks like phenolic PCBs whose contacts won't hold up as well as the gold plated copper contacts on the FR4 circuit boards in the Midas.
The switch contacts on the x32 appear to be good plated as well
Hi Dave you have forgot to see which type of converters are used on two consoles, probably are the same but the final letters usually specify a different selection, more and less noisy, try to keep this info zooming on photos, cool cool😉
There are some other comments posted here that clarify the converters
Wow that goes pretty deep! Very good - I like that comparison
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Scissors...because you can! Love it.
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Just became aware of your work, thank you for existing.
I enjoyed the solo oscillator performance at the end on my Klipsch Cornwalls thankyouverymuch
Awesome!
I just got one of your XLR Sniffer/Sender units. I am currently working with a fully installed system where they have about 30 XLR cables that 'magically' appear near the sound console, and are both ran into the wall, up the wall, and out a hole to continue their path to the stage some 75 feet forward and then another 25 feet down the back of the stage wall. None of these cables are labeled. They also have a digital stage box. The ability to plug this device of yours into the XLR cables is going to allow me to identify about a half a dozen lines that I have no idea where they go. Sound people come and go, and keep adding lines, and modifying things. Trying to just get control of everything.
Excellent?! Let me know how it goes!!
@@DaveRat will do!
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Dave,
I really appreciate you taking the time to do a deep dive and see what's under the hood for us.
I'm very surprised to see true "Midas Pro" faders in the m32. I knew that console was advertised as having them, but I wasn't 100% convinced. I've used various m32s for countless shows at several venues in town, and have also had the joy of mixing on a Pro2 at my full time job for the past year. I had always felt like the Pro2 faders felt more precise, but after opening it up to
re-align a belt, I can tell you the m32 faders look identical! I'm sure you've been in your fair share of Pro series consoles though, I'm curious if you have a similar opinion on fader feel.
Regarding the Pro2, it's been replaced after 9 years of service, by an Allen & Heath dLive system. Several fader issues, and the fact that Midas no longer sells replacements, were part of the reason we upgraded. So far, the dLive has been a treat to work with. I'd also love to hear if you have any experience with those systems, and any pointers you might offer given the leap in processing capabilities and options!
Thank you!
Cool cool
Thanks for the excellent demo! There is always a reason why Behringer is a bit cheaper. How would you compare these two against the Yamaha DM3 (or the DM3 Dante)? If we of course forget about the number of I/Os. We are looking for a mixer to have in the practise place as a recording and mixing machine for a pop, rock, metal style gig. To be able to record sessions of lets say 3-7 players. We were thinking of the DM3 as it is really small and offers quite a lot for the price. Would you say a Midas M32R Live (or Presonus StudioLive 32SC for example) would be more suitable, offer any real advantages that we would urgently need for our purpose? We are thinking of using a DAW on a laptop for recording and mixing. Thanks
To many factors to give advice but I would consider things like
Client perception, resale value, industry acceptance, capabilities, size, weight, cost, reliability, manufacturer reputation, ergonomics and ease of use, repairability, and company customer support to name a few.
Create your list, prioritize the factors and then plug in the aspects of the gear under consideration.
Beside transistors, quality of electrolytic capacitors takes the rules.
Great video
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With the issues that AES50 has (the pops etc) with different cables and lengths, I’m curious if you looked at that connection point, circuit board, etc while you were dissecting
Amazing…thanks for sharing Mr. Rat.
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Thanks for doing this, Dave! Very ballsy, indeed!
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Hey Dave great stuff, I think we may have met at the Iridium once but not sure, Alt J Front and Center show maybe? Would love a video on how the M32 AD converts 192k to 48k and then back to 192k DA. I have a M32r. Always wondered how via the USB card my Mac can play things at 96k or what ever sample rate via lossless audio on Apple Music and the console is just able to truncate / convert it to 48k on the fly as that is the boards interenal master clock setting. You would think it would error and say it’s the wrong sample rate/ clock but the board or the Mac is somehow able to stream it at 48k no matter the incoming sample rate from the computer to the usb sound card. Subbed to your channel, thanks.
Hey hey Mac!
Interesting, I will try sending 96k into the Yamaha CL1 and see what happens
maybe you can do a video on using smart or some other software and how they differ or even how to use em in front of a system. THANKS
Hey Dave, Love this video so much! Remember Fender's Ball Room? Met you back in the PR days!
Yes totally remember fenders great shows. Grease the beam so people don't climb on it.
Some really fun times back then
ok, Would there be a difference of anything using a x32 rack with the midas stage box vs using a m32R with a midas stage box?
The X32 would have noisier analog outputs, cheaper faders, And you have to stand up higher to see the screen. Oh and slightly more latency but that's really not that big of a deal.
And you can't rent it for quite as much money
@@DaveRat Thanks Dave! what do you think will be the next m32/x32 mixer that’s used as widespread and around that price point? has it been made yet? also what is your opinion on 48k vs higher mixers? maybe a new video idea?
I don't know what the next low cost popular mixing will be. As far as 48k versus higher, One advantage of the higher rates is lower latency. Especially for things like in ears that lower latency is advantageous.
Having the wider frequency response only really matters if you have a really high quality sound system where it may be audible. Or if you do a lot of mucking around with the signal and have quality degradation, starting with a higher quality signal may leave you with a better outcome
@@DaveRat ok thanks, it’s crazy after 12 years they still haven’t even done a V2 with more dsp or inputs or fx or something I’ve been on the platform for a while but just purchased a brand new m32 couple of days ago and it feels weird buying something that’s essentially the same as 2012
Man you really know your stuff.
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Brilliant stuff Dave, I own a M32 so these videos are invaluable. I hope you and your family are well, kindest regards as ever from Glasgow Scotland
Can't wait to get back to Glasgow and thank you Phil!
@@DaveRat The kettle's on Dave, we look forward to your return
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You're like the Bob Ross of audio engineering.
Ha! And hopefully equally as eccentric
Have you done any videos on the Behringer Wing?
I have not
Loved this video Dave! Thanks for sharing!
👍👍👍 thank you Josh!
Dave.....you're definitely the Mad Scientist of audio! Pull the Flux Capacitor and disassemble it for us please...
Awesome and thank you!
Dude, you really need to spend the money and invest in a lavalier lapel microphone. You have a lot of great experience and info to share, and when you walk away from the table we can barely hear you at times 😊😊
I have high quality wireless lavalier mics I just don't like to wear them. Put my recollection, The sound gets lower but it wasn't that hard to hear what I was saying.
Maybe your speakers are not great?
Hello and thank you for this video. 👍 do you think it is possible that Behringer made "deep savings" and modifications between the original m32 and the M32live? Thanks
what is your feeling about fully digital mixers that contains no "moving parts" like the Soundcraft UI series ??
Choosing the best tool for the application is an important skill
You had me at, "Something tells me this isn't the best plan..." Well done, as usual Dave.
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I can totally attest to the quality of the Midas faders.
In 2017 I took out my brand new M32r for the first time mixing both support bands on tour with Cannibal Corpse. Towards the end of the second set at summit music hall I took a full Mikes Hard lemonade tall can to the face. I mean this person had to really try and MAN, BULLSEYE! Anyways, it dumped straight into fader bank 1-8. I got up asap, grabbed the can but easily 10oz of liquid already poured into the desk. Faders 4-8 started jumping, finished the show just muting when they’d jump. After I tilted it up and slowly dripped what was left out, turned it back and blew compressed air through the faders to try and get any liquid still there out. Didn’t use it the next day, kept in the case with a bunch of silica packets. Day 2 had to carefully clean some sticky shit out of some buttons and exercise a couple faders. Day 3 opened it up, tried it out, powered on and we were all good
5 years later still throwing delays with those same jumping faders. Well worth the price jump.
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Just out of curiosity...Did this happen before or after the Portland, OR stop on that tour? I recall having some mysterious cat5 drop out from the stage box during gatecreeper's set at the hawthorne.
@@jasperwasson4963 I don’t remember which was first in the routing but I do remember that day all too well as the day I learned to never trust the house cabling! If I’m correct, you had a sketchy old white ungrounded data cable that I mistakenly ran my show off of instead of my snake. Don’t worry, it won’t happen again! See you in April! :)
Hello. Do you have the x32 diagram of connections of the internal cables between the boards? 😅
That's curious to me on the M32 on the output board; that big square chip from Xylinx is probably an FPGA and one, they're not cheap, two, someone needs to write a substantial amount of software code to run on it, and three, what is it used for? Is there some real-time processing the midas can do on the outputs?
I don't know the specifics but there are people here that have commented that are quite knowledgeable. Maybe scan the comments and reach out to one or more of them and they will probably know the answer.
hi man. any change to compare the berhinger wing against midas m32 or behringer x32?? In any case, a behringer wing test would be great for quality like noise, etc
I may do but am thinking I am near done with lower end console adventures
In December 2009, Midas and Klark Teknik were acquired by Music Group, a holding company chaired by Uli Behringer. Music Group was later rebranded as Music Tribe
And the X32 and M32 are made in the same factory side by side
A sad day indeed.
Hay Dave, how is that iphone holder fixed to the top deck? I'd like to remove it and fix a trackball there for a laptop. thanks, Rick.
That's a great idea! I don't know how it's afixed I will try and take a look at photos that I have from the disassembly and see if I can spot anything
thanks Dave, I'll wait to hear from you before I butcher it ! hahaha, thanks again, Rick.
With beringer owning Midas now do they still have the midas preamps
Bheringer certainly didn't cut costs for all those screws! :)
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This was honestly the greatest comparison vid I’ve seen in a long time…If U could do the same for these 2 4D massage chairs I’m considering…
Ha! That sounds like a fun test
Sir How to Manage 2 Type Sub. I mean 2 /3 types bass reflex sub , example - 1) Front Loaded
2) Hornload
2) Revers speaker sub
In one venue. How to manage it
I'm most curious about the A2D and D2A converters - are they off the shelf or custom? If they are off the shelf what are they?
Can you not see the model numbers in the vid?
@@DaveRat Perhaps I'll re-watch with my glasses on.
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Is there a difference with the scribble strips? I've never used an X32, but the M32 that I've used a few times seems to have scribble strips that are mounted at different "levels" when viewed from the top. In other words, it appears that some strips sit higher up off their board than others. I feel certain it's never been damaged or repaired, so not sure why. But, it appears to be built cheap, at least with the scribble strip displays.
Interesting stuff. Don't know exactly how I got here. Living most of life on the electrical engineering side of my brain I have some insight though. The cost delta is going to be cumulative. However manufacturing process tends to be the most significant. A product that can utilize surface mount and thus pick place machines is going to be more inexpensive provided there are a decent number to be manufactured. Even those minimum volume levels are dropping every year. Yes pick and place is used on through hole boards, but the boards requires all of those precision holes, and a solder wave flow. Higher component rejection rates due to bent pins (all resulting in higher costs). I see in the comments below there is a SNR delta between these units. I would estimate that has more to do with board layout, and possible cumulative effects of ever so slightly reduced component selection. Of course there is always the battle of diminishing returns. The first 80% of a spec is cost effective. The last 20% is exponentially more expensive as each percent is retired. Neat stuff you have here Dave. I might just wander around here a bit. I promise not to touch anything ;-)
Awesome Shain and thank you!
Hey dave great teardown video ! Have you heard of the midas mr18 ? Its a 3u small portable unit , have you tried it ? Cheers from France ;)
Awesome andove France! I have not tried it but I know of it
Great video!! Wow! Thanks for the hard work, Dave! 🙂
Thank you Edwin!
Thought I was on bigclive’s channel for a minute
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We are having an issue with our M32 where when we power it on, the main display and the scribble strips don’t come on, and it doesn’t pass signal or really do anything. I have heard power supply issue, ribbon cable issue, motherboard, etc. What do you think? Not sure I feel comfortable opening it up like you did, but then again, I don’t want to send to music tribe for them to hold it for 6-12 months…
got your email, let know how it goes
This is a really cool and informative video brother, thank you and be safe :)
Cool cool!