Universal Basic Income--For or Against? A Debate
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- Опубликовано: 5 ноя 2019
- Universal Basic Income--For or Against? A Debate: Karl Widerquist (Georgetown University-Qatar) and Oren Cass (Manhattan Institute) Wed., Oct. 30, 4:30 pm in Filene Auditorium
Wednesday, October 30, 2019
4:30am - 6:00pm
Filene Auditorium, Moore Building
Sponsored by: Political Economy Project
The idea of a government-guaranteed income for everyone has made a meteoric rise to prominence in just the last few years, in the United States and around the world. Karl Widerquist (Georgetown University-Qatar) and Oren Cass (Manhattan Institute) will debate the merits of this, one of the hottest policy proposals of our time.
Wednesday, Oct. 30, 2019, 4:30 pm in Filene Auditorium (TBD)
Co-Sponsored by the Rockefeller Center for Public Policy and the Political Economy Project.
I'm more convinced by UBI everyday, but I'm very happy to see this subject actually debated by informed debaters as opposed to the ultra-shallow soundbites that its afforded on the "Presidential Debates" stand.
Agreed. Capitalism's ultimate incentive is to get wages, healthcare, retirement, all human-problem costs off of business' back. And now they have a way to do that by automating nearly everything, even automation itself, with machine learning and AI.
The decoupling of income from productivity: pbs.twimg.com/media/EItVh4vUYAAHqtr?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
@@agingchill9012 Capitalism requires profits and as a result will never hire 100% of the labor force. There is no reason we can't create jobs in a care economy paying people to help people.
Yeah, sadly the opposition (represented by Oren Cass here) is abhorrently intellectually lazy. That's a nice way of saying his brain is enslaved through and through and HE LOVES IT.
UBI is fairly indisputable but they leave out the important nuance of savings, or at least has so far, nearly half way through it. Money cycling isn’t considered, many factors are mathematically missed.
@@idealbrandmarketing Things such as a better alternative to Nairu is not addressed by a UBI.
Yang2020!
#yanggangCA
MAGA!
yue vang interesting to see you in an economics video in support of Trump, would you say the tax rebate to corporations and the rich benefit the people or the rich?
John Dorsey I love yang too. But it’s not his time yet. And I would say both!
@@bumtobachelor1908 sorry it most definitely is his time! Dec debate will be huge - soon to win the whole thing.
It's universal basic income, not universal everyone is rich income.
Not quite sure what oren Cass was talking about in the beginning.
But towards the ends, his view on vocational training makes a lot of sense.
Andrew Yang is in favor of a Vocational Focus School, going to college is good but it's not for everyone.
@@zCopyCatz To add to this: Yang understands that a lot of work that is unlikely to be affected by automation are in vocational careers such as plumbing, and he has expressed their importance not only in interviews but also through policy.
@@zCopyCatz yeah, I'm yang gang as well.
@B D precisely. Why most people dont see it is just beyond me...
I met 2 guys who are cycling into the mountains 400km, NOT on an electric bike to cross from 1 country to the other for FUN during this holiday 2020...(with unexpected changing weather they told me) .because they love the challenge and have the energy. Let those people work for you and serve us. We are meant to be all different.....created by nature....I am not goign to be like you because you want me too. If you like to work alot......YOU WORK ALOT yourself
Oren lost a lot of credibility when he claimed that Medicare for all would force taxes to rise by 39%. I live in a country with universal healthcare, we don't pay anywhere near that tax level. This is not a thought experiment. It's been done. Misrepresenting it is not inaccurate estimation, it's being calculatedly disingenuous.
i live in romania and taxes are 45 % so maybe he is right
@@dracov5802 Well the fact that Australia got this right without having exorbitant taxes shows that it can be done. I can't speak for Romania because I know very little about it's situation but all I will say is that I know this is possible and that I am living in the proof.
@@Telltaletracks ' I can't speak for Romania because I know very little about it's situation but all I will say is that I know this is possible and that I am living in the proof.'
Looks like you're being calculatedly disingenuous too, then.
@@thecrapehanger24 how is it deceptive to simply point at the evidence that it is possible and has been done elsewhere?
@@Telltaletracks ah my mistake - I thought you were implying Australia already had UBI. Saying your country doesn’t suffer from exorbitant taxes in spite of a healthcare system in place is still neither here nor there in terms of implementing UBI.
Sorry for claiming you were deceptive (it was me who was deceived!)
greg mankiw already endorsed ubi..why are these guys wasting their time.
Not really a waste. It's important to see other perspectives on ubi. Ubi is inevitable in my opinion but i want to see more critques.
We always need more advocates for UBI. Educating the masses is our priority.
@@Xianfaquanli maybe critiques like what sort of Fed govt deficits levels are appropriate? How much is too much and how much is too little? If inflation becomes a problem can Congress act fast enough to tame inflation?
@@henrygustav7948 it depends on how money is generated in a country, if from natural resources for example, a public fund is possible, consumption based economy like America, a sales tax would be appropriate. How much? Between 20&50% of the median income, not a fraction of a percent of the poverty line.
Inflation : we gotta try first before we fail. No body knows. But implementing a fail safe would certainly be abused by greed/irrational need to eliminate debt. So it can't be too safe.
@@mmmk6322 "Inflation : we gotta try first before we fail. No body knows. But implementing a fail safe would certainly be abused by greed/irrational need to eliminate debt. So it can't be too safe."
Going to outer space requires many redundant systems to make sure systems work. Having no plans to regulate correct levels of deficit spending ignores other factors.
Andrew Yang 2020!
2024!!
2 bad outcomes it's hi inflationary and countries in Europe that experimented with this ended up with an over 50%
Tax rate.
That's why they stopped.
Basic income is *NOT* provided by the government, it is *DISTRIBUTED* by the government. Don't let anybody fool you with that one.
Government produces very little, therefore they cannot transfer value to anyone by means of production.
I keep seeing comments like "this is impossible, UBI proponents are living in a Fantasy Land"
Seriously? That's your argument against UBI?
LOL every single invention Humanity has EVER created began in Fantasy Land. When Humans first figured out how to harness fire, it required someone to imagine such a thing was actually possible, and then think about how to actually do it.
When the Wright Brothers figured out human powered flight, it first required them - and quite a few other people - to imagine that such a thing was actually possible and then think about how to actually do it.
When Humans put one of their own on our nearest satellite, it first required them to imagine that such a thing was actually possible and then think about how to actually do it.
Give me an example of a single Human invention that ever occurred without first living in that Fantasy Land and coming from that place to develope said invention.
Money is an idea - it literally only exists in our heads. The Laws of Economics are not laws at all, they are a mutual agreement between all of us, and we can change the nature of that agreement any time we want to.
Take away the mutual agreement behind Money and it is literally nothing more than scraps of paper and lumps of metal. Nothing more.
Somehow we keep forgetting that.
Yes!
Great to see someone think this way. Now to expand this even further where does the USD come from? Most currency is digital and either comes from the Federal govt or comes from bank lending. USD are just a tax credit in a system of laws, what people really need are real resources as opposed to just cash. We need our elderly taken care of, we need afterschool programs, community gardens, we need to rebuild for the homeless, we can provide for resources for mental health. We need to move caring for people out of the market system and into the public space. We need to organize for this with a Federal jobs guarantee that pays for community jobs turning unemployment centers into employment centers.
The power to create money is given to Congress article 1 section 8 and why would Govt need to tax us to get USD when they create it? In reality taxes do not fund the federal govt, taxes are deleted and fed govt issues new currency whenever it spends, whether that's for social security or for the Pentagon all spending is new USD created on a keyboard.
@@henrygustav7948 agreed except where you say the three words federal jobs guarantee.....work should, and in a truly advanced society, will be entirely optional. I will repeat that last bit - entirely optional. There is no point trying to guarantee jobs if they aren't actually required. This has been tried before and we get jobs with titles like "strategic transactive peer-to-peer meetings while brainstorming the value add-on of disruptive co-creation in the network society" as Rutger Bregman pointed out. Such a title, and the job that goes with it, is essentially meaningless and adds zero value to the world we live in.
We need to make work absolutely a choice for everyone, so that then they can be free to do whatever it may be that they really need to do to help make this world a better place - instead of doing what they are forced to do in order to "get a job". Forget about job guarantees - help each of us to be free to do our own thing, no matter what it is.
I'm confident that - better human nature being what it is - such things will naturally turn out to be beneficial for many others, without need for any other incentive than "it makes me happy" because as inherently social animals we often find happiness in helping others.
And to those pessimists who say "human nature isn't usually very nice" I reply thus: no it historically hasn't been, due to the simple fact that scarcity was the presiding mindset of us all for many thousands of years. Scarcity was actually a reality for most of human history but the really important thing about modern humanity is that we have already reached the point where scarcity is no longer a natural thing - it has become a very unnatural and deliberately artificial thing, one that could be swept away easily, if we actually decided to.
This is what makes this time in our development so powerfully pivotal, because it simply hadn't happened up til now. And when you combine it with exponential automation.......well, we'll see.
@@lukegrove7377 how about freedom jobs guarantee is that better? Jobs to tend to community gardens, jobs for out of work moms, I think you need to expand your definition of work. My mind is blown how people can just see a name and base their opinion off of that.
No one is forced to do anything, this is employment for the unemployed who otherwise would be unemployed. You can only have one or the other.
Great debate.. loved it.. convinced me UBI is the way to go... off to research more on Andrew Yang.
ruclips.net/video/4lJTZMgILDo/видео.html
Hehe.. I've already donated and have a math hat. I was just being a stinker.
it doesnt work
Not sure how it's possible to get that takeaway.
Who pays for this? Since 2016 we are almost 6 trillion deeper in debt. Biden needs 3 trillion more for infrastructure. And now you want to hand people free money?
Oren Cass, like Bernie, assume I love being in a dead end job... anytime someone preaches the worship of work instantly loses credibility to me. It shows how out of touch they are. Jobs don't make people happy and improve their lives. Careers and ambitions do. It is near impossible to pursue a career in today's day and age because the system supports only the top end and doesn't let anyone else get there.
A Universal Basic Income gives the common people leverage into this system. They now have a floor to pursue their passions. I can't tell you how often I get caught in job-lock.
Wow homie that was an EXCELLENT way of looking at it. Very well said I will be using your point in further discussions 😁.
rob see what I find as insulting is the people that have never been on welfare speak for those that have. Their argument is simply, "we already have a welfare system in place." and that "the UBI will take that away," as if they understand the full consequences of such claims, not realizing how limiting welfare is to those that qualify for it.
Like Bernie? How..
The freedom to do the work that each of us is uniquely qualified to do that provides the dignity of work, not a minimum wage or government mandated job. UBI or the freedom dividend is exactly what we need to get there.
Imagine all the lost creativity due to people being stuck in needing to do shitty jobs to get by in our current system.
The people who oppose it are the people who were able to live in good condition
the government doesn't want to stop the fake charities..programs that are so corrupt and don't actually exist stealing tax payer money is so severe they are above the law fake court hearings where no one is convicted is so corrupt this is our biggest problem ...the fakeness of our own government protecting themselves money corrupt system is killing us all with no satisfaction and justice for the american people fake court hearings continuous we give tax money to their pockets crapping on the hand that feeds them
we are collapsing cause restaging events is now the lie of US Government where involving companies like tabacco to sue an unsueable government is more corruptness from the highest court
if you live in the country no ID no tags or insurance and blocked by your own government to make income to cash on on your mortgage is. part of this corrupt system sold out US Gov for power and money unjust system we have
@Ronald Reagan they cause this to force vaccine
do away with US Government fraud to save the world
see if i had a basic income.
i would want to work even more. Because of the basic income. And it d be much easier to apply for a job with a basic income as the job will really be your choice and not somebody else 's choice for you!
and if i had a basic income
i would, when making enough money also see myself give 10 or 20% of it away to some good cause and i believe more people would be doing that.
That s all part of the multiplier effect of such a basic income.
Preach it, brother!
@Samba Warrior i agree very little social mobility in the lower income groups I am 72 years old now and i just cant see much future for the my grandchilren and their generation it was better when i was a teenager when you could tell a boss to stuff it and get a better paid job the week after the only thing I can see is low paid often low paid and bad working conditions or the welfare benifits with you have to beg for it an UBI unconditional income could galvanising (A) working in self employment getting a better educaction better employment the bosses have to improve working conditions pay (if possible)and conditions these things would improve society drastically
Nothing is stopping u from working more now
Where is the discussion about the MIND freedom that would be created once the grinding stress of meeting ones basic needs are removed? In other words the creative energy to address these problems in innovative ways will be released once the mind prison of scarcity and human unworthy-ness is removed. Derogatory Labeling of people in order to keep people in their place has to go! Let’s switch our thinking to EVERYONE is deserving of basic living and see what happens. What do we got to lose? We’ve been living the old paradigm long enough.
Power to the people❣️
Its the real resources available in our economy which are important. What we need to do is take care of our elders and children, provide community gardens for food sustainability, we need teachers assistants, cleaning up of and beautification of our neighborhoods and we can do this paying people a living wage to take care of people in their own communities so that we do not need to rely on the capitalist for profit market system which is so unaffordable for many people. We need a Federal jobs guarantee.
@rob see
Chillin at home with $12k / year won't feel much better. Will UBI allow you to pay off all your debts and save some money in a reasonable amount of time?
As Prof. Guy Standing from UOL said, the benefits of the emancipatory value of the UBI far outweighs the actual cash value itself.
@@henrygustav7948 nnnooooo, you take care of me....
Abby bch pvv c m no kcl NY
Listening to the argument against UBI it occurs to me just how psychotic our culture of greed is. It is not about just gaining more personally, but gaining more than others. Looking down on the poor with great pious judgement is just plain sadistic
We all started out with nothing. Now get off your ass and earn a living.
The main argument against UBI is inflation it has been and always will be because it would cause massive inflation
It seems a very spurious argument to compare UBI to disability benefits, in relation to disincentivising work.
UBI is by it's very nature Universal, you get it if you work or not.
Disability benefits by the very complex way they are setup ensures you never try and work again or even volunteer for fear of losing said benefit.
With UBI we would no longer need disability benefits If we had a UBI there would have been no economic fallout during the pandemic everyone could have stayed home and not worry about how to make ends meet. Instead we have a country of stupid people who compare having a few social net programs as a precursor for Communism. Give everyone enough to afford things such as housing, food, and utilities and all of society will benefit.The USA is the richest country in the world yet it is also the stingiest as it does not even take care of its own people. I think it is ironic how China is beginning to create plans for a UBI . Looks like China cares more about its people than the USA does.
Gonna be real, Oren’s take sold me on UBI more than Karl’s. Describing all the things that are only sustained by needing to work to survive made me consider just how much things are simply forced to work in the name of survival, without regard for human happiness, and really it’s terrible to say that keeping the system because it forces people to do things they don’t want to do is good for the sake of forcing people to do things they don’t want to do.
You will be FORCED to buy $hit at high prices to pump up the stocks of the POLITBUREAU. YEA, You wont have ANY CHOICE about what you will buy, what you say, how you eat. WAKE UP IDIOTS!!!!!!!
FREE RENT - HOW IS THAT WORKING OUT FOR YOU??Rents have TRIPELED since free rent was imposed, put mom and pops out of business and BIG CORPS took over the rental market.
People are SOOO GOD DAM STUPID its beyond belief
UBI is an idea only a complete moron would think would work. If you want $20,000 UBI then some/most of those people will work less. If you have less people working you have less being produced. The result is scarcity and inflation. It would create universal poverty and if you made it $75,000 a year you would probably cause starvation even though these morons would think they are well off making $75,000 a year. How can people be this f'ing stupid. You have zero ability to think if you believe in UBI. Work hard and become a man, looser. Stop playing video games.
Why do you believe in the zero sum fallacy when it comes to wealth ?
UBI would reduce crime rate by a large margin. When people have money they shop more often, the go places, they feel happy. All funds for this activity would go back to local businesses and government. UBI is an answer for a healthy, happy, wealthy and prosper society.
Just like welfare did in the 70s and 80s right ?
@@drwalka10 I think there's a difference, welfare had requirements that people had to meet. Because of this people made choices to get welfare that were actually detrimental to them and society in the long run but UBI's only requirement could be; to be 18 years old and a citizen. It would be tax-free and not factored into any other welfare requirements and could be spent on whatever the person chose.
@@drwalka10just like welfare still does lol
Even the magical goose needs food, unpolluted water, shelter and love in order to lay golden eggs.
Love this ~
WHEN YOU REALIZE: "Co-Sponsored by the Rockefeller Center for Public Policy and the Political Economy Project", lol
Oren used the singularity argument in relation to automation, because it's the most far fetched future concept, thus distancing his point from the fact that a lot of near future technology and automation is going to revolutionize and transform a lot of different industries in the next 100 years. It is ignorant not to assume the job market and contemporary way of life are developing towards a more automated future.
I take from what mr widerquist says in his opening statement that UBI could lead to greater human flourishing by giving people more financial flexibility. That people could be better able to quit the job they don’t like so much and pursue a career course that they dream about with the assurance that, even if they fail, they will still be able to have a minimum income coming in and won’t risk being completely destitute? Am I right in inferring this from his words, folks? I guess it would largely depend on what shape and form UBI (or whatever it would be called) takes when implemented.
I would sign up for a" Univeral basic income" study. Receiving $2,000.00 a month would be great.
until cost of living goes up and it will, Do you really think the Government will give you a raise without raising your taxes first? people need to work not just sit around and collect a benefit . .what happened to creating more jobs and earning a wage to live on.
@@judysholes5911the system we have isn’t interested in living wages, the 1%s wealth is growing exponentially, while the average person is fucked, either we make changes to the system, or the system is destroyed along with everyone who supports it
UBI will be necessary as the 4th industrial revolution presents much serious economical imbalance for the society. The privilege of work will be soon be taken away from many people. AI and automation will be pervasive. Current economy system will be so distorted if some form of UBI is not put in place. UBI is necessary by reallocating wealth and happiness among the citizen of the country. UBI is founded by taxation on non-human "workers" . Which means VAT on all good and service produced.
Idk that it will be that bad but ubi will stimulate the economy greatly right now, i think there will always be work for humans, new jobs too.
@@marioeid930 it is true. Most of those who would be receiving UBI would likely be spending it on everyday necessities such as rent and food. It would also force employers to pay more if they want workers and would means fewer people would be able to escape dangerous situations. Imagine a woman in an abusive relationship. She would now have the ability to pick up and go. It could be a boon for those who need to relocate for a job either nationally or internationally. The ideal way to set up the UBI is so that it is based off the per capita income. As your income gets close to the per capita income of the country your UBI income is reduced by that amount. This would mean people will not have to worry about losing their income simply because they dont earn enough. You can also expand it to replace social security, disability, and to give young people a jump start in life. You could pay for it by a simple 25% income tax on all income above the per capita. All other taxes could be abolished save sin taxes which could be placed in products made from materials that pollute, cause health problems, or injure people
@Ronald Reagan how are you so dumb and blind to not see how the UBI will benefit society. if implemented properly it will result in a huge economic boom for the country and possibly even world. if other countries see it as a success they will copy it too.
People, who are positions to make long ranging decisions, don't take the effects of automation, nor the possible effects of AI, seriously, not until such affects them or someone close to them. They are shortsighted and willfully ignorant of the state others. Upper income jobs wouldn't be immune to what may be coming.
@@bcase5328upper income jobs will be the first affected. Things such as accounting are very easily automated. It's harder to automate manual labor jobs as you not only need to automate the process but the dexterity of a human. That still is a very difficult thing but robotics are getting closer daily. First jobs affected by AI were writers and Hollywood not plumbers and electricians. Tech jobs will go first, the irony of it all🤣.
I don't think Mr Cass hold on for 5 minutes with Andrew Yang
If Andrew Yang was there he would be speechless
andrew yang will make history! the smartest candidate exist in america. even tough ubi is not his idea but he make it best and complete.
Yep 😁
You all are living in a dream world if you believe UBI is possible at this time. I think we may revisit this idea at one point in time ONLY,,, when we finally have complete Artificial Intelligence. A.I. that can create, build and do things better then we can. In other words another entity in itself that is made conscious. We start it and then it takes off. THEN we can talk UBI and A.I. will control it. Mankind hasn’t shown that ability without corruption. WE never will.
Smart to steal your vote
If work as it currently exists (sweatshops, factories, fulfillment centers) is vital to the health of an individual why must they be coerced to do it?
I was not ready for the affirmative side’s case.
Really surprising perspective based in fundamental economics and the social contract we have not questioned since the inception of sedentarism.
Where do you get the resources to start the pizza shop?
😂👍 See my point about this in my post above! Exactly!
Go out and bring value to the world. Accumulate that value in the form of skills and capital then start your pizza shop.
Every entrepreneur risks capital. The employees exchange their time and labour for money. The employees take on 0 risk to work at the pizza shop. The mutual and voluntary relationship between the pizza shop owner and the employee results in income for the employee and potential profits for the shop owner. Profits are not guaranteed. (This is the risk of owning a business.)
I was on the fence. Leaning UBI
See my post above & keep studying! It really is brilliant.
How do you feel about it now.
People just think UBI just as an expense. It is more like a fuel to turn the wheels of the economy faster.
anywhere I can get the sources for this debate?
What is the case for the working poor?
If Karl can smoke Owen , Yang would have wrapped this up in 5 minutes
Rohit ka hilarious, you’re very right... I see what you did there. Karl is not the better speaker but he clearly won! #yang2020
I love Yang and support his candidacy, but Karl's arguments are at a higher level of sophistication than Yang's, philosophically speaking. Yang typically sticks to more practical arguments drawn from facts about the future of automation and its effects on jobs. Those are quite valuable as well, but I like the philosophical approach myself.
Artificial Intelligence isn't comparable to the steam engine, it gets smarter by itself. People wont be able to get other jobs like they did in previous industrial revolutions.
elliott cook moreover back then people had plan B to fall back on : there were more small farmers to self sustain with basic necessities ... most population resided in the rural agricultural area than modern urban industrial
You have no idea what 'Artificial Intelligence' is. It's just an algorithm (a recursive computer program) that spits out a result; it's not intelligent. Furthermore, algorithms have to be engineered, monitored, fed proper data and evaluated for accuracy all the time by humans, i.e. they require human jobs. There are trillions of lifetimes of work yet to be done before we reach anywhere near a UBI future.
@@EvsEntps I agree, after alot research into the subject of A.I. I've noticed that most of the preconceived notions of self aware/hostile A.I. comes from media and movies. Where in reality a computer program can only do what it's been programmed to do.
Karl definitely went down the rabbit hole of UBI. He articulated so well.
A UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME WOULD ACTUALLY BE PAID TO EACH INDIVIDUAL FROM THE INTEREST RATE!!!
WANNABES
You’re either Low skilled or Low in individuals, who believe in the zero sum fallacy when incomes to the economy and don’t understand that this will bring mass bum mentality to this country.
fRee mOneY… get on your knees and beg , u envious lowest value citizens
I would love to get the names of everyone who is against UBI right now. I will make it my life's goal to check on their UBI opting out status when its implemented
The children argument was especially idiotic........
Children didn't work for money, and most children grow up under UBI environment.
@Kaleb Swager right... cuz most people called their 18 yrs old teenager who live in dorm paid by parents or drive car with co sign insurance with their parents "children"... when in reality we call them adult or young adult.
Bear in mind, no one is imposing ubi on you.
You can choose to take it. Or forego. It's a basic life line secured in an advanced country where every human being is respected and valued.
In the current covid 19 weather. It rings especially true...
@Kaleb Swager think insurance.
@Kaleb Swager ipo? Initial public offering?
@@tclmac1 it is a better alternative then telling landlords they cant evict you because you can't pay rent. with UBI no one can use that excuse anymore. Everyone would have the ability to pay rent
I created my own UBI with dividends.
That's cool. If you are a fan of UBI, you should simply give away 80% of what you get to random people. Forever.
@@DoubleBob Definitely *not* a fan. I can create my own steady income with my own capital.
Because when I was growing up, I dreamed of working for someone else...
So you started your own business?
@@wordingreenville
With what? The saving i built from the high wage 2.5 jobs I work n free time i have to plan?
@Ronald Reagan
Yea, as long as u got enough money to make decisions
Exactly. If the world was just two people I’m pretty sure it would only be fair to share the resources equally.
That's right, but how does it sound when you go out 8 hours a day breaking your body working while I stay at home all day? Is that right?
Yes when one person can only harvest the resources. So u teach and switch and bring the other to an equal.
You dont need "singularity" for millions of low skill manual labour jobs to be replaced.
Oren used the singularity argument because it's the most far future concept, thus distancing his point from the fact that a lot of near future technology and automation is going to revolutionize and transform a lot of different industries in the next 100 years.
12k yr mortgage
7k yr health ins
6k yr food
2k yr electric
2k yr gas
1k car ins
That's 30k a year to exist in US
Can I have your mortgage costs?
And that is what the majority in this country make. They pay you just enough to barely meet your basic needs and than you have nothing beyond that. American business hates UBI because it empowers the people. Oh the people don't need a job to meet their most basic needs. It's all about power, exploitation and keeping people poor for the grotesque profit of the Ownerclass. It's almost as if when you look at it it's still a master slave situation. My how the structures actually haven't changed all that much!
after doing the math. I realized I actually earned more from my 22000 CNY teaching job in China than I would if i had earned 60000USD a year in the USA. After i subtracted all bills such as rent and utilities i would have saved the same amount and would have worked a less stressful job.
I don't agree that employment is an agreement between two individuals. People have to work. The agreement is inherently unfair.
30:53 no. It’s cost needs to take into account bureaucracy and the effect on prices. How much more will a loaf cost if everyone can buy more bread and the labour used to make the. Read has increased?
Yes for some wages are low and cost of living is high and some bosses make you do three peoples work load for peanuts but they get rich meanwhile your scrapping the bottom
Honestly the U.S needs to get their healthcare figured out before they get a UBI program but countrys which have a universal healthcare system already established such as Canada or Denmark should work towards slashing programs such as welfare and unemployment insurance and putting in a UBI
Weeell just wondering what the debate will be now after FED is printing money non stop as mad company
How can you say that no one is being starved into submission? Is this a joke?
I'm rather conservative come from a well of family yet support UBI fully. I struggle to do daily tasks and this would be such a wonderful system. It makes me sad thst people are born rich or poor.
Children already get UBI from their parents: I guess that's also sending the wrong message. They should learn they must work to eat! 😂 Also, love how Cass talks about our current ways as necessary for a healthy society, discounting the small fact our society is so miserably unhealthy it's on the verge of ending itself.
Jokes aside, so refreshing to watch these conversations and read your comments, letting me know I'm not alone. Thank you. You wouldn't guess the amount of vitriolic resistance I meet among my circle around this topic. The way they shit on the concept and defend the system is like, to quote Shakespeare, "a sick man's appetite who desires most that what would increase his evil".
most believed they are the kind who create values and goods, and they are not willing to share their "gaining" with others..but little do they know, we all need some help at some point and UBI is a great policy just to reward that you are a human being...
Well yeah kids should learn the value of a dollar and should learn that they need to work hard to get what they want. This is why parents have allowance for chores. Teaching your child that they can have whatever they want and whenever they want is how you raise a spoiled kid who knows nothong about saving, investing, giving or paying bills when they are older.
I didn't like Karl's arguments for UBI. It was all so populist, but it had very little empirical justification.
Why do it the hard way when it can and should be done the most efficient, cost effective and smart way?
From the beginning industrial revolution freed human from physical wear and tear. With each stage workers reaped the benefits of the improvement in various forms. Now with AI and automation resulting in higher productivity and efficiency, not only workers but all citizens finally have a chance to share a slight slice of fruits of the 4th industrial revolution in the form of UBI. The wealthy and industry owners would still of course have the lion share of the nation’s economy.
If Oren Cass had been invited to speak first, he would have said 80% LESS as most of his talk centered on silly rebuttals. Listen to him carefully, he has almost no arguments against UBI. To simplify his "long" charades, he's only saying one thing: we HAVE the monetary resources, but it's going be hard to juggle btw UBI and universal healthcare. Hmm.. The rest from him is even more irrelevant, and it is exactly what's wrong with us Americans. We see work = identity, while the rest of the world sees work is work, and there's so much more outside of work. So to all the 18 years old out there, $1000 a month will turn y'all into good for nothing drug addicts or world-travel loafers. Wow. What an insult to Widerquist to call this a debate.
Yeah i took note of his rebuttal and thought good speaker, trash arguments. He 1st starts with an appeal to popularity, then goes into saying its possible but then strawmans a tax structure, and ends it with an argument for jobs provide meaning.
universal health care works out cheaper look at the tables the USA comes out at the most expensive life expectancy is lowest cuba uhc has an higher life expectancy a point of entery universal system is much cheaper no middle man to pay like private care
He started with a non-sequitur right out of the box. "No one even takes this idea seriously, why are we even talking about it?"
The reward of the worker is more taxation as well as work. So much for a work ethic.
Wish the one in the middle could debate Andrew Yang
UBI is a great idea for a country with many highly educated people: Now people have a safety net to pursuit their dreams, or create new technological innovations without fear of failures, or pursuit a totally different career path that would otherwise be impossible to do. All those endeavors of the educated people will eventually accelerate the GDP growth for a country.
All who are talking on this panel seem a bit ivory-tower out of touch/pure theory rather than in touch with work-a-day Middle class or Working class.
A simpler answer would be a raise of the zero tax mark.
If the government needs more tax revenue, reform the tax code to eliminate caps and deductions/exemptions. But, focus on raising that revenue from the above $100,000.00/year group. The Working class and lower half of the Middle Class don't have the extra money. There are whose in the top 20% who are paying in a lower percentage of their income than those getting between 25,000.00 to 50,000.00 per year. Eliminate the tax code which allows that.
Exactly. But what we have is a country where at least 25% want to loaf about and play of their phone. They won’t use UBI for anything more than doing nothing. I mean you can run a society that way and still be successful but not when we are basically bankrupt with 35 trillion dollar deficits.
Is paying more for everything really pursing your dreams? Guess what happens when UBI checks go out? Your rent goes up, your groceries go up, your hydro bill goes up. There goes your UBI right there.
Winner Karl! 👏🏼
what century is oren from?
Sooooo, does UBI come with rent control? Does it come with food allowance? What's to stop landlords from raising their rent to equal the ubi?
The same good faith that we use to control it now.......
with this type of income if rents are too high in the USA one could always live overseas, If given the choice i would rather work in China teaching English but i am unable to do that due to the pandemic . Once i am able to get a visa I will plan to go back to China. 1400 a month is really all i would need to live well on.
Understanding Economics. Sprawl will be far more economically viable with UBI, Cluttering in Silicon Valley will be for the rich, OR rather the "EXTRA RICH". But more people will be willing to live in colder environments and more companies will be created to support those places.
If you look at average Rent, you'd say "THATS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO WHAT I PAY". If rent is cheaper somewhere else, live closer to it. Just close enough to keep rent cheap and not be in a bad neighbourhood.
If the richest people are paying ridiculous prices for housing. Landlords will ask for that much. If you live downtown and work as a barista, it's a fair game.
@@rodelnewton3245 dont forget overseas. If the US government is giving me 1000 a month and i can spend it however i choose and all i need to be in order to qualify is a us citizen why live in the USA. I can go live in Cambodia , Brazil, or Thailand and rent a decent apartment and work as an English teacher
i can even start a business in these countries too.
The guy in the blue forgot the fact that people are actually loosing jobs all the time and back packing the UAE? Well actually theres homeless people that already do that right now without the basic income, theres people right now in their moms basement playing video games and smoking weed right now without the income but if you distribute them all an income then maybe they would go and work since the feel how having money makes their lives better and will want to get more, if you cant see how money is important then why would you waist your time working for someone else Makin them rich?
UBI in one form or another will be necessary simply because not having it will result in social collapse. There is nothing more dangerous than an ever growing proportion of the population with nothing and therefore nothing to lose.
When will that happen? When has that happened in the past? Is this a historical certainty?
People who favor UBI should be grouped separately from those that do not, Tax the high earners within the pro UBI group to pay the low or non earners within the group. See what the ratio is.
UBI shouldn't be funded by income or wealth taxes but by sales taxes. If we drop employees tax, production n profits can go up
1:11:34 is something that people should understand.
Start a pizza shop requires capital, like $100,000 at least, the average poor person in America only have $50-$300 at most.
This is an obstacle to self employment.
Then don’t start with 100k shop. Start with a food cart. Build a business.
Seems obvious to me that Oren Cass has never met a poor person in his life. His opinions show that he’s never had a shitty exploitative job. And the fact that he thinks someone living in poverty can somehow start a business is insane. 40% of Americans can’t afford a surprise $500 bill 🤨
What happens when the us dollar is no longer the reserve world currency??
IMO that shouldn't matter unless you're planning a vacation in another country where your dollars buy less
Simply the spending from a UBI would trickle upwards, either way, plus would do so into the hands of the types who argue against it. An argument for all getting on board, as this is the real way of stimulating an economy, anyway.
If we don't want to have wide spread anarchy, we better get on board with UBI
I think this will be the driver for UBI.
The word you’re looking for is chaos, not anarchism.
People would become more creative, open to learning more about the world, and different perspectives. Most people are trapped in a rat race to survive and they barely have time to pause, think, breathe, cook a healthy meal, exercise, or read a book.
At 16:50 minutes, how exactly does he get "less than 10% GDP" for the cost of a "generous" UBI?!
because depending on what the net 0 mark is will change that GDP number. say 60k is the net 0 mark, meaning you pay 12k a year in taxes and get 12k a year in UBI. that means you only have to provide UBI for the bottom 50% (since average wage in US is over 60k a year) also its not like if you make 59,999 a year you get 12k for free, but as soon as you hit that 60k mark you lose it all. so if you make 30k a year, you get a net income of 6k (12k from UBI-6k you pay in taxes). so all you have to do is figure out at what range under 60k does people make and boom you have your % GDP number.
At 1:01:00 Oren Cass should stop at just saying he's not an expert in monetary policy (or theory). By continuing and then stating that he thinks expanding the money system with non-debt currency would be inflationary, he ignores the simple fact that it doesn't matter how the money enters the system with the current design, ie. doesn't matter whether it's the government/fed creating new currency out of thin air, or it's the private banking system doing that on the government's behalf. He needs to brush up on his studies of MMT and other practical monetary policies.
#Yang2020 Freedom Dividend is only the foundation!
@Ronald Reagan Surely that will stop people from trying
@Ronald Reagan The Ontario & Finland experiments didn't fail, people became more productive in the Ontario experiment but was cut to an end by a progressive conservative government, because wahhh it's so expensive to have basic fucking empathy for others, but nah, lets waste it all on wars & pointless policing. Guess we should stop feeding children too because it's too expensive.
Give me a fucking break. All US conservatives do nowadays is whine instead of making efforts to solve anything.
People are working paycheck to paycheck, throwing away their own lives just to help people like you and me.
If a rich person had 100 billion dollars, taking half of that wouldn't do jack to them. You tell me who's busting ass more, the rich guy sitting on their ass with their shareholders ballooning their profit by breathing air, or the people working for them who spend every minute of their lives exhausting themselves to death doing backbreaking labor/putting up with customers who have mental health problems venting out their life problems onto innocent workers?
But nah, lets keep up the corporate Stockholm Syndrome because wow, the rich totally deserve to run us over with tanks because they earned it!!!!!!
And yes, animals totally have to go through several interviews and work for a wage slave master just to spend money on fruit & food that grows with a literal price tag on it.
/s
If we had a whole population of people like you thinking everything was fine and nothing had to change, we would still be living in the 1500s. Lmfao.
Lol Ron seriously deleted their comments 😂
Revisiting this idea in the middle of COVID has convinced me its for the better and even becoming necessary. I wasn't quite so convinced a year ago. Now I am.
Who pays for this?
how do you like the post-pandemic inflation?
At 59:28 I started to understand that they don't want to actually discuss UBI they just want to use it as a springboard to talk about other topics
What on earth? In what study are children doing better when both parents are FORCED to work to afford the basics to survive? How about the 700,000 people fired last year for being 10 mins late to their "job" because their kid was sick or their car battery died on their way to work?? I now support UBI even more than before watching this debate.
I support UBI given today’s economic and technological environment, but the way Karl justifies isn’t a strong argument
I support ubi also but which argument are you referring to?
I think Widerquist's argument is actually the best argument there is for UBI. It's about reparations for the private and governmental enclosure of the commons, the source of all abundance/wealth in the world. We all deserve a basic share. There's more than enough to meet our basic needs in today's economy.
Chance Lacina there just seems to be a tone of entitlement. We should at the very least acknowledge that the world of abundance that we live in now has been a result of modern capitalism. But it’s time to also recognize the gross inequalities and negative externalities that have become increasingly prevalent and I think a ubi is in the right direction of where we should evolve
@@user-zb6lg1xj3k Well I'm tone deaf so I don't know how to respond to that. What I'm responding to is that everything Karl said is just true. He's not attacking capitalism at all. Nor is he endorsing socialism, or entitlement. He's saying we've been stripped of the commons. We've been stripped of our right to subsist without interference from government/private interests. Anyone who owns capital owes reparations for that injustice. We all owe each other some share of the wealth of the commons. Given how rich our societies are, that ends up being a basic income at/above the poverty level. There's just no reason not to.
@@meghankreger4672 The best seller of Ubi is a guy named "guy standing"
Terrible name to search for
The guy in the burgandy explains exactly how I feel, i absolutely oppose working for other people and i think its inhumane to treat people as caddle and people accept this, they say oh go work hard but not mentioning working for someone who drives home to his Mansion with his family while the worker working the hardest everyday has to go live with his mom or family member because he cant pay for his own place even with two jobs, its absolutely crazy
That's called Capitalism. Join a union and fight for better wages.
@@thelakeman5207 better wages only brings less hours per week and less people employed, better wages will make things worse for others while a basic income is the solution around this all, jobs will start to have to compete for workers and therefore bringing higher wages to the masses, only in competition will better wages make sense because without incentives to better the wage, there will be no better wage without more people suffering do to the highrr wages without incentive to it
@@thelakeman5207 so you get a few bucks an hour wage and still cannot afford anything, and oh if you get injured welcome to poverty.
Lazy bum!!!!
@@marialenakalamau1267 Lazy bum?? hahaha ok s tell me this and be completly honest (not that i espect you to be) do you love your job? i mean do you absolutly love your job and will choose your job over your family any day of the week? go ahead and answer that, I'll wait
Totally agree with Karl Widerquist, so authentic. Annoyed at Oren Cass when he says workers are not servants, they are. It is not the same to work with the feeling that you do it by choice, than to have no choice. The main risk that I see with UBI is that the shark debt system might end up confiscating a lot of it. I think it should be limited the amount of it anybody can compromise in debt. It could help to open owner's employees businesses, but what if they do not end up working... or people simply finance too many things and default... UBI should protect anybody from such things or it would loose its purpose.
How old are you? And where do you work? Do you know what being a servant means? As a worker you have to accomplish a set of objectives. If you are not well prepared, you are disposed. You go train, get better then try again elsewhere.
I don't understand where this mentality come from that the worker should be treated like a snowflake. You are a grown adult, you should be able to deal with a certain level of stress.
I don’t understand orens wage subsidies; it goes to show that a lot of employers will manipulate it in views that the employee will be paid less in wages knowing that the government will top up their wages...in which case incentivises employers to keep wages low...at the expense of the middle income earners...cos the richer won’t feel it in a tax cos nothing changes for them...in fact you could say it pulls the middle class down and creates a greater wealth gap between middle and high class structures...strange thoughts indeed
It would make more sense to support a higher minimum wage here, than to to say that the government should subsidise the shortfall in pay by the employer.
when i was 18 i was glad to get a job it was my dream job it gave me a home car a child a life
It certainly didn't teach you how to write.
We got to get out there and vote for Andrew Yang.
You should fact check him first.
ting tang, walla walla bing bang yang?
"Um uuum um and and um so I, so I think that people who own stuff, um, uh the people who um" ~ Karl Widerquist, Modern Theologian.
34:30 But I don't have my own resources to pursue the construction of a pizza shop. I need to take a loan and work to repay the loan plus interest. Perhaps population growth will open a niche demand occasionally for another shop but an established pizza shop owner is in a much better position to take advantage of openings in demand.
If you can get a loan
Oren’s Need work..as if they don’t believe people are able find/create work for themselves. Reminds me of what Frederick Douglas stated about freedom...in the opposite sense..where if the slaves get freedom, they won’t be able to handle it, like how they get drunk 🥴.
MATH ~ Andrew Yang 2020
The first 5 minutes against UBI are basically start with a mixture of appeal to authority and argumentum ad populum (people in politics don't take UBI seriously) which obviously is not a mark against UBI but of politicians and an uninformed populous. And the next is predicated on an assumption that income taxes would be the main funding mechanism...I would rather listen to Greg Mankiw honestly.
Why do they keep saying raise the tax rate for everybody when you could skim off the ultra wealthy and the military budget and afford UBI and benefits easily
38:10 So the Dartmouth graduates are not going to "work really hard" if they are given 12k/year? Is there any empirical evidence to that? So rich people already collecting 12k/year rent will "work really hard" too? Or is it just poor people who get 12k/year who will not "work really hard"?
That Oren guy is not keeping up with his own logic.
@Kaleb Swager The economy did not factor in a lot of work like someone cleaning their own house, basically anything a parent would do. Your drawings are worthless until they are sold. Compare that to the stock market when future earnings a included in their value. All this ignorance results from people still thinking money is gold. Money is a unit of accounting of the production of a country, every work should be accounted for and that is not being done. That alone should justify a $12k/yr UBI. It is true though at certain levels the production of a country may not keep up with the demand. 3 trillion in a 21 trillion economy, shouldn't be a problem.
@Kaleb Swager Why should anyone get paid for whipping their own asses? There's still value in the sense that the person is providing an entertainment for himself. Economics is about choices people makes, perhaps with more money he can buy himself a better whip.
The question you really need to ask if you were exploited and the work you have done more than paid for your expenses.
@Kaleb Swager so an answer to your question, a large portion of your income wont get taken away unless you make a shit ton of money. most UBI sits around a 60k break even mark. so that means if you make 60k a year you pay 12k in taxes, but you also get 12k a year in UBI (net 0) if you make 30k a year, you pay 6k extra in taxes and get 6k extra in income, so you make 36k a year and so on. so you have person A that doesnt work, that person makes 12k a year, depending on where they live, just enough to survive. person B takes a part time job at mcdonalds (32 hrs a week, 9$ an hour) and gets paid 15k a year, now person B makes a net salary of 23k a year(basically $13.81 per hour if you stay at 32 hours per week or 49 hours @9$ an hour per week). which person would you rather be? person A that has just enough, or person B that is still productive, paying taxes, spending money in the economy helping other businesses. and maybe being able to save money to go to school to get a better job, or learning a new skill. maybe spend more time with their kids instead of working 2 full time jobs because you are getting paid the same but working 17 hours less, thats 17 hours to better yourself, 17 hours to spend time with kids and help them in school, maybe even 17 hours to donate and volunteer to help others.
@Kaleb Swager so your numbers are wrong, the person making 60k a year shouldnt see their income changed. 60k it's what they are aiming for to be net 0 or break even. Also even if Medicaid is 12k worth, that doesnt mean you have a 24k income. It means you have 12k income with health insurance
@Kaleb Swager so because you choose the job you choose means everyone has to get screwed? What about the person working minimum wage? That's a 40k a year difference and just as stressful if not more stressful. Also guess what, you could quit you 60k 40 hour a week job and live off 12k a year. Or maybe be able to find a new job that's less stressful that makes you a better person and care about fellow person more! I really dont understand people. How can so many people be religious, or say they care, but once it becomes, maybe you could pay a few $ more per year to make sure people dont sleep in cardboard boxes! Oh and guess what, the people paying that extra isnt even you, it's the ones making 100k a year, 500k a year, 10 billion a year, not you and your little 60k a year job
I like the idea of UBI on condition we pay for it with military reductions and other government fat. Also becoming a citizen needs a higher bar. You can’t just wander in and get UBI.
But just popping out of the womb on the right side of the border is enough to earn UBI? A citizenship clause is a means test. Must show proof of birth or naturalization to receive UBI. It's opening the door, just a crack maybe, for future reforms to take away UBI from more and more people. Maybe felons shouldn't get UBI. Maybe you need to present the proper documentation to receive your check. Maybe this, maybe that. You get my point hopefully. It's not Universal anymore.
the dude in the blazer looks like John Oliver. lmao
This is a debate, the presidential debates should not be called debates, more like 2-hour soundbyte-a-thon
The Freedom Dividend is the Best form of Capitalism Without this it's just a Game of Monopoly once the Winner gets all the Properties , Hotels ,Utilities, Railroads, Etc it's GAME OVER But if Each of the Players Automatically got a Small Peace of Money from Each of the Big Money Property Holders that gave Each Player a Thousand Dollars for Passing Go the Game would be Virtually Endless for ALL Players Giving Everyone an Opportunity to Succeed Not just the Lucky Ones.
Great analogy! FD keeps the game playing, winners gaining, losers trying and the American Dream alive!
1:24:00 for all the audiences here: Yang's UBI proposal stacks on top of SS by the way.
I enjoyed the respect and thoughtfulness of the debate.
I would just highlight that Karl noted you could have a country without poverty for 1% of GDP. However true that might be for absolute poverty (less anyone who spends unwisely), most commentators use the ‘impossible to raise people out of’ relative poverty to beat the rest of us with.
Shame how this only had 60k views
Karl, you kill the guy with out merci.Great job
This is interesting to watch in 2021 with an ongoing labor shortage.
Oren is not making any good arguments against UBI. Why does he keep throw in AOC, and M4A, which are both flawed with UBI?
A well designed UBI is necessary and all those billionaires must give ideas to get it.