Slander and Calumny! Standing up for the TSR Old Guard! Plus, Kelsey Dionne's Gary Gygax Encounter.
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 20 авг 2024
- Back my latest Kickstarter!
www.kickstarte...
Use Promo code PICKLED with the following companies to SUPPORT the CHANNEL!
www.Thorum.com - Use Promo code PICKLED for 20% off your Purchase!
1985games.com - Use Promo code PICKLED for 10% off your Purchase!
www.DnDDice.com - Use Promo code PICKLED to show your support!
The Pickled Dragon
Teespring Gaming Swag: teespring.com/...
Website: www.thepickledd...
Facebook: / thepickleddragon
Instagram: / the_pickled_dragon
@The_Pickled_Dragon
Twitter: / 1pickleddragon
The Monstrous Lexicon: www.amazon.com...
Pickled Dragon 5e Adventures
The Days of Blight Trilogy
Days of Blight Book 1: www.dmsguild.c...
Days of Blight Book 2: www.dmsguild.c...
Days of Blight Book 3: www.dmsguild.c...
The Pickled Dragon's are now in PDF on DriveThruRPG: www.drivethrur....
The Prison of K'aas: www.amazon.com....
The Evil Under Clorehaven: www.amazon.com....
The Misfit Maggot Five: www.dmsguild.c...
I defend the old guard because WotC hardly has any ground to comment on them. Not after they not only dropped publication in several country because of low sales, but canning the *entire* team who worked on D&D 5.5. They're trying to win back the 'progressive' crowd by using conservative behavior. "Look, THIS guy is the bad guy!"
I played D&D through the late 90s. I was a tomboy. I can 100% confirm that zero of my female friends had any interest in playing the game with me. They (and my other peers) thought it was a game "nerds play in their mom's basements". The group I eventually found, welcomed me with open arms. (Back when being openly nerdy was not socially acceptable.)
@@TryssemTavern i played from 1979 on when you could get beat up for being nerdy! Fortunately I'm 6'3" and could handle myself. At least back then I could!
I big part of this issue is the complaints about Gygax stem from a group of people who wear offense like it’s a badge of honor. If there is nothing to offend them they will fabricate something. If you showed them that interview with Kelsey they would dismiss it. That is a great interview and I always think of it when people claim Gygax was misogynistic.
It doesn't fit their narrative
LatinxOrcs say we don't need no stinking badges! 😉
@@dracoyaminiatures5143 exactly!
Well we should certainly go out of our way to insult you.
The biggest source of pushback against newer D&D products is the grognards who have been playing since AD&D. What better way is there to undermine the credibility of that community's opinion than to taint old D&D and its creators? WotC has been, and will continue to portray itself as having "saved" D&D from such awful people. See? Only awful people defend them!
The biggest source of pushback is that the products are garbage. It shows in their sales figures. Their biggest seller in the last 5 years is the stupid cookbook.
@@NemoOhd20 Hey, that Cookbook is not bad.
@@jamesburge1983 Better than they trash the call "adventures" these days.
I agree we are wired differently in general. No one goes after the predominant female hobbies as the women “gatekeeping” men out and being sexist against men, and I’ve pointed that out myself. Statistics can be misleading especially if you use them to support a social political ideology or theory without proper research into actually what is going on.
I don't give money to WOTC due to their Political stances. They have a choice, shut their mouths or lose money.
@@sebbonxxsebbon6824 I have stopped buying WotC products. I will buy second hand used stuff, take in free unwanted products, but I don’t buy D&D or MtG anymore new. They really have left me disgusted with them. I can choose how I play fantasy TTRPG which system, which editions, house rules, mix of systems as I have options on my bookshelf.
That is a great point. No one has ever said, " why aren't there men in this beauty pagent?!"
@@dracoyaminiatures5143 "Why isn't this knitting group/scrapbooking group 50% male"
I don't know if its wiring or the endocrine system (chemicals, not wetware), but yes, different genders like different things. This has been consistent across all non-biased studies. Even in a vacuum, people will make gender-based choices. They simply like different things.
To a lot of these people, they just hate men and boys and want to destroy the things men and boys love. To ostracize them. They make claims that basically amount to 'let's put redpiller nonsense into romantic comedies and try to sell it to woman!', but for men instead. That makes no economic sense and it's been going on long enough to destroy the comics industry. It's current destroying movies and video game industries. It's an ideological hatred of the other.
Edit: and someone may well be using these types as useful idiots. There is nothing good to come from alienating your military aged males. Not unless you want to become a new Caesar or Genghis Khan.
Its cool. I'll just sell my 5e books and keep my old guard money. I have all the 2e books. I never needed to buy the new systems anyways.
🙌🏻 yes!
I really wish there was a single Old Guard game we could rally behind. Unfortunately, it's the nature of the hobby that it would be like herding cats. What rules I prefer, you might not - which is fine but keeps us a disparate force in the face of WotC's gutting of D&D for a diversity message skinsuit.
@@LordOz3 the osr in general would be what you want.
@@thepickleddragon8590 I've resigned myself to the fact I'd have to put together my own variant. I do like ascending AC and bounded accuracy, but I hate one long rest heals everything and there's no consequences for getting beaten unconscious.
I run an lgs, my events always have 4 out of 10 payers women, but I push hard against the usual tropes and create many new players, that being said, none of them are "active feminists"
Man your channel is great, this is a really well stated response and is very important right now.
This whole thing is so mind-boggling. In the old days, we teenage guys wanted nothing more than to find girls who had the least bit of interest in D&D. Any guy who thought D&D was some he-man woman-hater club would have been shunned as a creep. Most girls just did not have an interest in the game, period, as much as we tried, and the fact that it's more accepted by them now is one of the things that current generations take for granted, and which inspires a bit of envy from the older guys who wished there were more gamer girls all those years ago. People throw around the term "gaslighting" too frequently, and incorrectly, but this whole fake controversy seems to be a clear example of some bad actors trying to gaslight older players into thinking it was their misogyny that kept girls away, and not the fact that it was a niche nerd hobby with a lot of social stigma that even most guys avoided. Now that it's more mainstream, it's hard for some to conceive that we were looked at as weirdos back then. Even now, when I run into old school acquaintances, they'll say "oh, you were one of those D&D guys..." And it's not a compliment.
Same with our local horse shows and events...the odd male rider here and there but primarily female!
Kelsey's interview says it all.
This is exactly why I ask for examples and evidence from both sides. Most people never get past reading a headline before making a decision and it shows more often than not.
Why we stand up for people? Maybe because we are supposed to be innocent before proven guilty?
That would be the foundation of our system. 😂
This topic aggravates me you can't judge the past by the modern standards it was a different time
I completely agree. Most women I know just roll their eyes and move on. We're doing better now and that's enough for me. It doesn't mean people were the worst back then either.
a sad state of our hobby is letting ourselves go down the road of criticism towards who like what version or what game. Play what you love, let others play what they love, dont spread hate, we are all apart of one community that needs to support each other especially in this time where corporations are trying to push us back into the basements.
I agree, which is why I hate that all this nonsense is forced upon people when there wasn't a problem to begin with
You could discuss the ideology driving "call out culture", and how things like racism and homophobia in the 70s and 80s have been recognized...ever since the 70s and 80s. It's nothing new, and not some great moral achievement to do so now. Instead, let's break down the behavior here, and see why it's a truly crummy way to act:
The initial comment uses weasel worlds to re-frame calling the old guard racists and homophobes just "recognizing mistakes." It's an act of intentionally insulting someone. Calling someone this is guaranteed to cause a fight, running one's mouth and then minimizing the act to blame the target when they get understandably upset. This exactly what emotional abuse looks like. It's like Amber Heard telling Johnny Depp "I didn't punch you--sure I hit you, but you made me, and it's probably all your fault--I just did it to make things better".
Disgusting.
Even worse, it's a set up -- you deliberately choose to call someone an ist or a phobe, which in our society are the worst insults imaginable, because it's calling someone morally perverted. It's not a little 'ole thing -- it's like accusing someone of witchcraft, in a time when people get burned for it. Then, when the person gets outraged in response, you claim that they're "overreacting" and it's proof of their guilt, because only a guilty person would deny it. You know who else denies accusations of a moral crime? Everyone who ever lived who's being falsely accused.
If bystanders don't buy into the abuse, then the accuser tries to garner sympathy by crying victim, even though they created the whole conflict in the first place.
Remember the Narcissist's Prayer:
That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.
@@cowpercoles1194 its easier to read a headline and take it at face value than to actually dig for the truth. That Mark Twain quote is so apt in this day and age.
It is reprehensible what they are doing.
Scandinavia, has been on the cutting edge of engineering an open and egalitarian society in the West for decades. Despite their efforts to promote and open typically male-dominated fields to women, women overwhelmingly gravitated to fields that engaged their typically understood feminine qualities.
You make some good points. WotC is crapping on the old gamers and the games inventors. I have no use for WotC.
The OG GM shouted you out and I found your channel
@@RIVERSRPGChannel i wish I could get everything I want to say out. The video would be way too long though
Thanks for the video. I really appreciate your chill tone. I've been playing D&D since the 1980s, so I realize how personal the relationship with the game can be. I would like to make a couple points. First, I think WotC is doing it wrong when it comes to questionable and/or offensive content from the past. Look at how Turner Classic Movies handles it. They acknowledge the problems with older moves (which are worse in many cases than anything I've encountered in D&D), but then focuse on what is still valuable about it. Frankly, the prices of the new addition deserve more discussion!
I'd also like to disagree with you a bit. I think we underestimate the impact of all the messages and cultural pressure children encounter. If young girls grew up receiving the message that playing D&D was an appropriate thing to do, the numbers would be a lot closer to a 50/50 split. And if that was your experience, I think you you are very lucky. Most in the 1980s didn't get that message.
@@TimGuthat fair enough. I think everyone had different messages. That said, I had to work hard to get girls to even try the game. Then, the majority didn't like the game.
In those days, nerds were to be shunned and kept in their gaming basements. Most girls o knew didn't want to be associated with that world.
Nowdays dramas and most of... Well, let's call it "public discourse" - are based on emotion. I think that a person most suspectible to manipulation and delusions are those who focus on expressing their very own self "outside" to show their approval or disapproval, without self reflection or empathy. Somehow "barbaric" behaviour - laugh at other's misery, cry out loud if your "sensivity" is disturbed.
I came upon a sentence that left and right are now being made this way and are being "farmed" by those who know how to move them. Otherwisely I've met people who were out of this spectrum, yet still juvenille in their "emotion-consciousness" or other understanding of basic feelings. And my favorite, the third type - persons who had experienced life. Be it hard times, disease or other thing that make them stop and reflect for a moment... Their stories and advices are truly amusing and quite a good substance to think upon.
It's not like the third type is the most rare of them all. You pass by them everyday - and just as you, they are minding their own business. Out of the web's "matrix" they live a life and work, building whatever future that awaits them - switching online only for a little bit of entertainment or knowledge.
Most people that are joining such "dramas" aren't people which we can or ever could reason with - as they are not listening, made deaf, blinded by a righteous feeling. And what an irony it is, as the same people affect our lifes, even if we don't know who they are and about what they banter.
It's not like we can fit everyone into those three types of persons, mind you. But it lightens a pressure upon my perception. Biased, yet true with that feverish will behave like feverish, juvenille like juvenille and adults won't play with such a trifle matter if there's work to do.
Thanks for reading and (I hope) responding! Godspeed and have a great time, whoever you are!
Some call it rage bait but whatever it is, marketing people, politicians, and youtubers have all learned that making people angry is the way to success. The only problem is, these tactics create silos (echo chambers) where people entrench themselves. Getting someone to open their mind and listen to your argument is nearly impossible. I say nearly because I have to hope that we can break this cycle.
Mind you all - great corpos behaving like a halfwits is no trifle matter, due to their obesity (ie. reassembling a great deal of the market and having employees). Yet this is just heading for a collapse. Either somebody'll steer away from the waters called "I-hate-consumers" (what I doubt) or in years to come we'll as niché will be niché and we'll march with the Nitsche - "What does not kill me, makes me stronger"
@thepickleddragon8590 , glad to hear that I am not only one seeing it. Yet it's still depressing to see such silos sprout out like 'shrooms everywhere... Or simply they were always there.
Heh, I should've moved out of my Mastering Chambers (read: TTRPGs' Basement) earlier ;)
Nowy I am shocked! "Hey, wind blows here!"
@thepickleddragon8590 , glad to hear that I am not only one seeing it. Yet it's still depressing to see such silos sprout out like shrooms everywhere... Or simply they were always there.
Heh, I should've moved out of my Mastering Chambers (read: TTRPGs Basement) earlier.
Now I am shocked! "Hey, wind blows here!"
“Everything has to be at once for six-month-old puppies, six-year-old children, and reformers of any age.” ― H. Beam Piper, A Slave is a Slave
Something to consider is that men and women absolutely *think* and process differently.
Old man here with a Negroni. What happened? Preface to what? Oh gotta go to google. Good vid Pickled.
@@paulsavas2394 thanks! Check out my video from a couple days ago for the details
I agree both are wired different, and in no way that excludes or restrics either side in any way shape or form.. it, along with culture, may shape how one sees something and boosts or lowers interest in a hobby or profession..
For almost 3 decades I have played and DMed.. not once, across the many systems we gamed with, not once was any talk against females.. we even had a few along the way and even they spoke about not many sharing such an interest in that hobby.. at that time, it was also true for males, as the "nerd" was ill seen.. yet one may say its isolated, to that i say jsut look around.
I have worked on the industry (at an oil rig) for 2 decades, a job seen as a "male job".. and we have females working there.. the numbers might be low, but for the same reason, interest.. wired different.. every time they open hiring, its under a test, that is documented and public, and nowhere in there says gender.. it has a minimum for strenght and endurance fit for hte tasks one have to perform..
And its not only gender, all people are wired different, cultures are different.. and cultures change.. WotC as usual is digging its own grave.. so no gatekeeping, no mysoginy, nothing... and I doubt, untill this generation shifts, that they are gonna change spewing nonsense..
Honestly, if all the old guard were to band together, and find a way to market to one another, you'd have the largest consumer block imaginable that actually appreciate real entertainment.
They did for rpgs at least its the OSR movement though there have been attempts to undermine it as well
Another interesting point is that in the 70s D&D was much less cooperative story telling and much more Table Top war gaming and as for conventions they were Table Top wargaming conventions and Table Top wargaming is still mostly male.
So sad. This is just as dumb as everyone calling a certain person racist because they said they like a certain person of a certain ethnicity and don't like another person of the same ethnicity...
@@NegatveSpace very sad indeed
Lie to me once, ya that's on me, and, I wont give you another opportunity. It saddens me so many will.
Great video but I would like to point out something. When you say "lots of people" attacking the original creators of the game you are not correct. These are a vocal minority of millennials mostly. The only type of people who appear to be offended by everything but is not capable to create anything original. Their opinions to me are completely worthless. And their gaslight tactics do not work anymore as they were kicked out of Twitter.
@@House_Of_Cards_ good point but sadly, wotc listens to those voices
Great video! Note to WOTC and the current generation that repeat this nonsense. You don’t tell me (and I suspect many other gamers) what to think, nor do you have a monopoly on the truth. For every “-ism” you criticise about the original generation that actually MADE the game, this modern generation of virtue signalers are just as guilty. Stick to making games and take your needy, look-at-me pseudo-politics out of D&D.
The people changing things for a "modern audience" are the problem, because they think there was a problem to begin with, yes Succubus's have a rockin bod, Orcs are monsters and yes girls played too, not as many sure but most girls certainly in the 80's my age had much better things to do than hang around with some nerds in the neighborhood and play dungeons and dragons.
No nerd worth their dice wanted to keep women from gaming.
Im not a xenophobe, but to yall woke dorks, I might as well be a Xenomorph!
In his time RPG games didn't have the same level of roleplaying that they do now. He mentions LARPing, have you seen online games now-a-days? It's all LARPing.
😂😂 oh, larping. lol
I think its relevant to point out that original D&D and modern D&D are two completely different games, almost even different genres of game. Gary's extended comments were at best dismissive of female gaming interests which are more served by modern D&D, but weren't well served by his original D&D that he was giving commentary on. He conceded that women liked roleplaying he simply looked down on the type of roleplaying that they enjoyed. He was at best naively sexist and at worst just an entitled jerk.
@@roon-sy8fz Respectfully, I disagree. There is no way you can know whether he "looked down" on the female style of roleplay. What would you say is the difference between male and female RP styles?
I believe that Gary designed a game that HE enjoyed. For AD&D that means lots of crunchy rules that would simulate medieval combat in a fantasy setting. Essentially scratching that war gamer itch.
@@thepickleddragon8590 If I remember the broader quote correctly, it was something about how females generally preferred to RP teatime over the staples of D&D. "Roleplay" was actually widely available in that era in different forms, like costume parties etc, so women were interested in and participated in "roleplay". But they weren't big on D&D, because at that time the iteration of D&D was very dialed in to male interests. Males demonstrate more interests in spatial shapes/mapping, mechanisms, etc. And original D&D is primarily about mapping out dungeons and using ingenious means to circumvent traps - dangerous mechanisms. It's no surprise at all this was less appealing to females at the exact same time that every little Suzy was playing teatime with dolls all across America. The reason modern D&D appeals to females more today than before in my opinion is because modern D&D features much more teatime than a sort of "my dad could beat up your dad" and "lets hit each other with sticks oh your armor is stick proof well I have a +1 laser stick" type gameplay of knights vs ogres and dungeon trap adventures.
This is all to say that Gary was a guy with guy interests, and many guys say guy things about their wives or daughters or women in general - without ever suffering the scrutiny associated with celebrity. You could probably be any middle american guy saying "women don't like steaks as much as men" and be fine, but put under the microscope you'd run a gauntlet of nonsense.
This comment quickly became a dissertation on account of my drinking a bunch of cider, I apologize for that! Thanks for making the vid anyway, this is the first vid of yours I've seen but I appreciate the time and care that went into putting out your view. Wish you the best going forward. :)
@@roon-sy8fzWoman, here! I hope you stay tuned because we're creating a video highlighting this very topic
@@roon-sy8fz I personally believe that people today, at least those that make the most noise, want to find a nefarious purpose in Gary's actions. If you look hard enough and twist a person's words enough you will find something to crucify them for.
Thanks for watching! I love a good discussion
Men and women as kids even play differently, little boys will pretend to BE Batman, and little girls will turn Batman into Barbie's husband doing stuff that Batman doesn't do. Roleplaying honestly lends itself to male play styles unless the PC is a self insert...well, how much more "self insert" have PCs become in 5e, vs 1&2e
I see men making Batman do stuff Batman doesn't do. (Try reading fan-fiction where Batman pulls a gun on a teenager go "scare him strait.") This tomboy pretended she was Godzilla, recreating the scenes from the movies where he pops out of the water from my kiddie pool (and once apparently in a mud puddle.) I had more fun pretending to be Robin Hood, then a princess.
Lot of parents... buy toys for their kids that are already targeting specific genders. When you spend your entire short life being told your supposed to like something, you learn to like it so you aren't singled out. Women don't magically start wanting to spend hundreds on purses, or collecting shoes. (I sure has Hades would prefer to drop $100 on chain-mail rings or fabric then spending that much on shoes or a bag.)