We should crowdfund a "sending Paul to X" fund and just having him shipped off to people we see a glimmer of potential in and see if 24 hours with him can turn them, too. I'd make reality TV of it. Like wife swap, but only adding Paul to an existing fundie family. "After meeting Paul my daughter can wear whatever she likes because and I'm putting aside money for her dream to become an attorney because that man was a reflection of myself I didn't like and I do not want to risk her ever marrying a man like him. Here is footage of me cooking and doing the laundry because my wife is off bowling for five hours with her friends because adult interactions without children is good."
I pretty much expected it from Dav, but Bethany is a surprise to me. Honestly, good for them. They can stop doing damage and hopefully live happier, more fulfilled lives.
Eh. When a partner loses their religion they think. And you tend to talk to your partner about it. She like also wanted him, the man, to be the religious leader of the house. Which she lost when he deconverted
@dutchik5107 deconversion isn't something I'm familiar with deconstruction is something I'm familiar with. Was he a convert to the church to begin with? I'm not being a jerk genuinely curious if this is the more appropriate term.
they started having better sex and questioned their entire existence. honestly though, dave was on a path to deconstruction. good on them, but they have caused so much harm these last few years
They can heal some of the wounds. It's going to be VERY painful for them because it's going to require introspection and an ACTUAL apology. Really apologizing is hard, it's uncomfortable, and no one wants to be that vulnerable; but if they fully understand and learn about the damage they caused they could pull it off. I'll always look at them with suspicion, but if they apologize and keep pulling their weight in fixing everything I'll at least respect them.
There are going to be people who never forgive them-and they're not obligated to. But, it's better that they can stop doing even more harm. Redemption means you won't always obtain forgiveness but you need to try doing better despite that.
Is this why the men fear women enjoying sex? Could we solve all our problems with ex. in the communion wine ? (yes that's a joke drugging people against their will is bad)
Thats my only issue here. I've not seen anything about Bethy acknowledging the harm that she's done. That's when I'll believe she's turned a corner. I suspect as long as she holds onto her Christian beliefs she will always feel like her old crap came from a place of Christian love so it couldn't have been wrong, even though some of her opinions have changed. I would not expect to see that level of taking responsibility from her unless she fully deconstructs as well.
@@rebeccaramsey1274 I feel like her husband deconstructing will help influence her in that way. Especially if she believes real Christianity means fixing the harm you’ve done.
@@ErutaniaRose I hope so. Previous to Dav's deconstruction I always said that I had no hope for these two women ever changing and I definitely blamed it on their upbringing. I'm glad to see him growing and I hope Bethany continues to do so as well, even if she remains a Christian. I was wrong about there being no hope, but I still don't expect drastic changes from her, honestly.
@@rebeccaramsey1274 Not that this excuses things but I think it’s important to remember that she was essentially raised in what some see as a cult. Where you either fall in line or your treatment is harsh. The fear of hell is very real & traumatizing for people. So at this point, her even coming this far is huge. It doesn’t automatically make her forgiven for previous hateful comments, but I do think she should be shown some grace & acknowledgment that these changes are huge progress in the right direction. I guess only time will tell but it’s going to take a while for her to see things from the perspective of others.
@@kristalefler3312 I definitely blame it on the cult like upbringing. Not fully excusing it, but I understand she didn't have a choice really til recently.
You could have given me all the time in the world and I would never have guessed that in the same year Cody Ko got cancelled, Bethany of girl defined would have a redemption arc
Especially since I first heard of girl defined from him. It's really come full circle and yk, I'm glad that Bethany and Dav are exploring more about themselves, especially since they both seem much happier/ at peace now.
Like, that phrase is literally meant to be about conspiracy theories. Not about cussing a little bit, which hasn't harmed anyone in... *checks notes* ever. The funny thing is, Paul could have instead said: "Hey uh... it kinda bothers me when people swear around me. As my friend, could you maybe tone it down when we're together, just for my comfort?" And that might have been fine. I have two religious friends around whom I keep the Lord's name outta my dang mouth because I want my friends to have a comfortable, safe space with me. But we all understand that this doesn't mean I'm a bad person for swearing elsewhere.
@@Broeckchenyou know “not saying the lord’s name in vain” isn’t about saying omg or goddamn? It’s when Christians invoke his name to judge people. Your friends would be the ones going to hell according to their religion, not you.
The Bible does explicitly state what modesty is though. According to the Bible modesty is dressing in such a way that you do not flaunt your wealth. So in modern day terms, it would be not wearing clothing with the brand names printed on them, and wearing understated jewelry. If they had actually taken the time to read the Bible, they would know that biblical modesty has nothing to do with how much skin you’re showing! Did they even read the Bible?
Haha exactly. And there are versus saying that you shouldn't look like "temple prostitutes" (which we don't even HAVE anymore, and are completely different from sex workers). I feel like so many pastors just took that p word and ran with it. And the modesty they spoke of mostly came from Bill Gothard's IBLP teaching (you know, the wisdom booklets the Duggars loved).
Just like in the original version of the Bible where it says "Man shall not lie with man" it uses two different words for man, because it actually translated to "Man shall not lie with boys". So thus it was condemning pedophiles not homosexuality.
@@NekoMimiMisa I actually think it does say man, but it’s not the fact that it’s homosexuality that is the problem. It’s that a man shouldn’t submit to another man. Men were at the top of the hierarchy at that time and it was considered VERY taboo for a man to willingly allow himself to be put in a submissive position.
While watching this video, I had 2 things to say. #1 Dave leaving the church and deconstructing doesn't necessarily make him an atheist. He could very well be agnostic. #2 Bethany hasn't said much about regretting the harm that girl defined has created. She has said that she regrets the content itself. I think that it would be even more interesting to hear if she actually regrets the harm that her content has caused. ❤
@@mr.perfectcell1887Thank you for calling that out. For anyone who doesn't know "gnostic" is the term for knowledge, agnostic is the term for people who don't claim absolute knowledge of whether or not God exists and if more religious people were truthful with themselves they'd be agnostic.
I thought the same thing on your #1 point. I was raised fundamentalist Christian and when I was deconstructing it wasn't just fundamentalist Christian to full-blown atheist. It was non-denominational Christian, then deist, then a brief Buddhist phase, then agnostic atheist, then gnostic atheist, and finally I've settled at agnostic atheist. It's a long and complicated journey, I'm sure there are plenty of people who do go from super religious to gnostic atheist but when you're starting off that extreme I don't think that that abrupt shift is the norm. The whole point of deconstructing is breaking everything apart piece by piece, not just waking up one day and throwing all of the most fundamental beliefs you've based your life upon out the window.
having watched at least the whole p1 of the Zelf on the Shelf interview, I think she's caught between her sister and her own growth in that regard. Apparently their channel content can sometimes represent things that one of the sisters doesn't wholly agree with and they have to negotiate what they say, which would explain why they aren't so active anymore. Extrapolating from that, I think she's probably at a place where she recognises some of the harm, but not enough to call it out knowing that it could hurt her sister and their relationship, as her sister still believes a lot of those things. Hopefully over time she'll reach a place where she recognises that she can't simultaneously live with love for everyone and also not say anything when her loved ones (and her past self) harm people, even if it'll make her loved ones upset if she speaks out.
Right, at least there's one fewer gun pointed at us. And it makes sense how humans, being so social, would semi subconsciously conform to the community. Like they know they're doing it, but they're rationalizing it to themselves in a way that made them believe their own lies enough.
I sing in a church choir as a non-christian. The church is accepting and inclusive in the sense that it celebrates queer people and has gay ministers. A lot of leftists attend this church and it kinda blows my mind how a lot of other churches are so right wing and conservative, just because it's so different to what I've experienced
your church is definitely in the minority, I'm glad you've had positive church experiences tho most people have all that spoiled for them from an early age
i love seeing youtubers react to her with such compassion! its important to acknowledge the harm girl defined has caused and work to correct it and prevent it moving forward, but having been in her shoes to some extent, i'm really proud of the growth we're able to see (obviously we only get a glimpse!) and even when they say stuff i disagree with, i always admire bethany and dave's dynamic and support of each other and the way they engage in the tough convos they choose to share with us. seems like a healthy relationship for them, even if i dont understand it for myself all the time!
I agree. It’s impressive that they found a special kind of love to work through such a drastic spiritual and physical life change together! Good for them honestly.
I could be totally wrong abt this (pls correct me if I am) but I don’t think Dave has come out to define himself as an “atheist,” he’s openly spoken about “deconstructing,” but that doesn’t automatically make him an atheist- again I could absolutely be wrong and maybe I just missed something but from what I’ve seen, Dave has just openly expressed that he’s deconstructing his beliefs and values. This doesn’t mean that he’s an atheist. Many Christian’s deconstruct and remain Christian afterwards or become agnostic rather than atheist. Not to say that being an atheist is AT ALL a bad thing!!! I just wanted to make sure someone spoke out abt this. (Again correct me if I’m wrong)
im an ex-mormon and currently agnostic. all of my siblings have also left the church, except one sister who passed away a couple years back. all of us range from remaining christian or full atheist. we also have explored other faiths along the way (my brother practiced buddhism for a while, i personally was interested in judiasm after speaking with my sister-in-law who grew up jewish). it's interesting the different paths people can take from the way they were raised. even having talks with my sibling who more or less remained christian (he occassionally goes to a progressive church but his faith pretty much begins and ends at believing in god and jesus, and praying for guidance) doesn't really shake my beliefs, though i do understand why he has remained faithful. he finds comfort in "knowing" what happens when you die in a way that i just don't. i really think that's what it all boils down to lol
plus, there is also always the possibility of being drawn to a different path or belief system. whether that be another more organized religion, or a more loose and ancient belief system like animism or the various types of paganism as well.
My hot take of the day is that it's actually good to see where bigots are coming from. When you have this mental image of "the bigot," it's really really hard to spot when people in your life are being prejudiced. Because hey, that's my aunt Marnie, she's so nice, she could never be a bigot! When we accept that bigots are people, it is much easier to recognize the problematic behavior in those closest to us and in ourselves.
Plus, if you understand where a bigot is coming from, it can give you an idea of how you might be able to get through to them. From there, you can get them to understand why their bigoted beliefs/views are problematic and need to be changed.
@@MikeHawk-c5t well lets see for aa second women were treated like property before feminism, people that look like me were animals and gay people just for liking something over something else and without even doing anything to hurt anyone would be put to death. leave the bronze age open your eyes get some perspective on the lives of people outside your bubble and reach the 21st century.
As a liberal Catholic the way Fundamentalists use the Bible is bizarre to me. Like there's entire academic disciplines dedicated to understanding the historical context and meaning of the books as they were written thousands of years ago, meanwhile entire denominations of people are just going off taking the modern English translation as literally and out of context as possible
And they don't even talk about the funny bits, like how before Daniel translates The Writing On The Wall he roasts the shit out of the king and /then/ he translates it Or how Jonah is an overdramatic teenager DEEP into his emo phase Why am I supposed to care about this cherry picked verse from the one translation that says what they want it to is supposed to mean? I could be laughing at Elijah's sarcasm that was awesome enough that there's a record of it even thousands of years later
Drop the superior attitude. Absolutely bonkers for one sky-wizard-believer to talk shit about another because the other believes Io Pater keeps his beard trimmed like a modern chud instead of an ancient Roman
It's because evangelicalism is arguably more of a political ideology than a theological one. The interpretation of Scripture is meant to justify their political beliefs, not vice versa. Evangelicalism evolved from American colonial ideology meant to justify westward expansion, slavery, indigenous genocide, etc, so all of the seemingly weird decisions make sense when you look at it in the historical context that it was meant to justify all of the worst aspects of American history. It also has a lot of influence from distinctly non-Christian spiritualism and occultism from the late 19th century, so a lot of the practices aren't even Christian in origin. Interestingly enough, there are a lot of distinctly American Christian groups that are equally as old but distinctly more liberal (such as the quakers, who very much still exist on the East Coast). All in all, this is a pretty American phenomenon. Even American Catholics tend to be much more conservative than their European counterparts.
?? omg i follow you on tumblr haha! i think i started because you made a post about the racial dynamics of the lighteyes and darkeyes in the stormlight archives. really cool post btw
I have been (embarrassingly) keeping up with girl defined through a different RUclipsr and this has been coming for a while now. Her husband for a while was on the path to deconstruction but Bethany was followed behind him, just at a much slower rate. From smaller comments over the year like being disillusioned by sex that she was taught would just… work once you got married and obviously didn’t because neither understood what to do. While for some a crazy way of starting a long process to deconstruction, for her who is in so deep with purity culture I’m sure it was eye opening for her. Since then, while really slow you can see her just not being happy in the faith so I am not surprised at all. Does it excuse the pain and misinformation she helped spread for years? No she still caused a lot of damage. But that doesn’t stop me from being happy for her and beginning her journey. It’s not an easy thing by a long shot, especially for someone who grew up so clearly staunchly religious
She seems like she's genuinely grown so much and cares a lot more about people and those around her than following these strict rules. It just makes me so hopeful for the world.
she did -in this interview-. But if you follow the Fundie Snark subreddit, the stuff that she put out on girl defined post-interview were all the same sort of messaging as previously. I just unfortunately wouldn't put much faith in what Bethany says about her "new views" since her grift doesn't rely on what she personally believes, it relies on what she's willing to keep saying to sell to her audience.
@@hexonyou take what you see in that sub with a grain of salt, there’s a reason that there is a snark sub for THAT sub. They go far beyond critiquing hateful views. They pick apart literally every move these people make, they’re basically damned if they do and damned if they don’t. In turn it gets to where the criticizers are no better than those they’re criticizing.
And her whole vibe has shifted accordingly, and it's amazing to see! Before, she radiated disingenuous passive-aggressive mean girl vibes that made my amygdala scream, and now, she seems much more like a real, authentic person that I could feel safe and comfortable around.
People can really change a lot. When I was growing up I was always told that being gay is bad, and now my mom knows I'm bi and trans and fully accepts me. I'm pretty sure dad also knows we just haven't actually talked about it cause he's not gonna ask and I'm not gonna bring it up but he doesn't really have a problem with it. They've made a lot of progress in the past 4 years and I'm proud of them for it.
My dad and i are also basically don't ask don't tell. I'm ok w it. I'm 35 years old, i am living my life without talking around anything, and i don't need him to talk to me about it, just to be respectful (ie don't actively say rude things). He used to be homophobic, racist, transphobic and now i'm dating a gay black trans man and we went to dinner and he was civil. Note: i DID disclose this to my partner ahead of time and he consented to this situation, i would NEVER pressure a black person to be around someone who has a racist history.
@@SpecialBlanket I'm only 17 and still live at home so part of it is also cause WHAT IF he reacts badly. I don't think he would but I'd rather not take the chance.
I'm proud of them too but the dark truth is that the change only came when those horrible beliefs directly negatively impacted those they love and them personally. We are not a large % of the population as a whole community of lgbtq+ (although yes each generation is getting more comfortable being themselves and open) so we are not capable of personally touching through being immediate family of everyone, and pushing them to acknowledge the harm in that way. Especially my trans brothers, sisters, and embies 😢 those who aren't personally affected are also seeing many who are leaving the bubble of hate and then they don't challenge their own beliefs because of it but lash out at the community 😢 I of course hope to see this always. To see parents choose their children over their hate. I guess I'm just sad it has to be that their kids are still growing up terrified to be their authentic self's to their parents at all. 😢
Seeing Rhett and Link's story of deconstruction was so incredible for me personally in my own healing and deconstruction. THIS???? is way more than any of us could have imagined lol. As others have said, there's a lot of harm there that they need to answer for, but in general, I'm gloriously happy about this. Good for them.
It's so interesting seeing the difference as well, the deconstructing couple have a healthy loving relationship, the still religious and bigoted couple have an emotionally abusive relationship
I grew up in a toxic Christian environment where girl defined was a gold standard for young women. It always rubbed me the wrong way, even as a tween/young teen. I left that group in my mid teens because their purity culture and anti gay felt so wrong to me, a young bisexual atheist. And the girls who wholeheartedly believed their rhetoric honestly scared me.
As an ex Catholic I feel this, I stopped believing in that BS when I was eleven, and saw how corrupt religion made my parents and other adults. Good luck on your journey to liberty! You are worth much more that what others tell you.
I'm confused at 25:53 bc Bethany doesn't explicitly say she believes in queer rights at all she just says they should be allowed to be together. I'm okay with people celebrating her openness but I think it's still important to be a bit skeptical about people who have acted as figureheads of harmful rhetoric around LGBTQIA+ issues, especially because their work involved targeting young people specifically.
I fully agree with this too. I think right now she is in a crossroad we will see for sure where she goes from there soon enough. My hope is that this is indicative of the change I had when I started deconstructing. I grew up pretty much with the same beliefs I think she holds now that being gay is a sin but people are allowed to do what they want as long as they don’t hurt anyone else. I also grew up loving pureflix movies and thought Christians were persecuted very cringe stuff LOL. I had been stuck in a bubble until 16 and as I met more people I went to being gay isn’t a sin at all but if someone doesn’t want to make a cake for a gay wedding they are within their rights to refuse to completely disagreeing with that previous statement but still thinking that people were pushing the gay agenda way too much on tv until I turned 19 when I realized that I really wasn’t as straight as I wanted to believe, the majority of churches are a cult at worst, hurtful at best, that their ISN’T enough queer rep out there and honestly my ideals have only become more and more open minded and “radical” as time goes on lmao. Granted the difference between me and her is that I am not white so I experienced discrimination and alienation as a latina in the US, and I am not wealthy. Also the Trump presidency (which happened when I was 16) taught me that the people at my majority white church were the people that cared for me and my people the least. Unbeknownst to them they had turned their back on me who they claimed to love. These are probably the reasons why I deconstructed so quick in the span of 3 years and it took Bethany 30 fucking years. It shouldn’t be like that, a compassionate Godful person should be able to empathize with others pain but unfortunately many people are happy being willfully ignorant until something happens to flip their lives upside down (her husband changing)
For fuck’s sake, how do so many people not understand progress? When I was younger, I was so conservative that I didn’t like Rush Limbaugh because he was too liberal for me. I thought I was being awfully liberal when I finally decided that I could not criminalizing same-sex relationships, and then saw myself as more liberal for supporting civil unions. Now? I’ve officiated same-sex weddings (and call them same-sex since not every marriage between two men or two women is gay, and saying “gay wedding” erased bisexual people, pansexual people, and a whole lot of others). Considering where Bethany was just a few years ago, she’s made outstanding progress. Deconstructing is a process, and she’s doing so at a much faster rate than even I did. Defining her based on where she was instead of where she’s going is how you help conservatives stay conservative. It is how you, YOU PERSONALLY, harm people. Making our side the side with the open arms, the side encouraging baby steps to keep coming our way, is how you help. When someone is firmly on this side is when we can start expecting them to do the work of starting to undo as much damage as possible.
The word that helps me with this conversation is trajectory. "While I would wish that she had made more progress by now the overall trajectory of her deconstruction seems promising. I hope my optimism is not misplaced". Also, it's ok for everyone to have different levels of feeling safe with the exact same levels of progress. Each of us have different experiences, different temperaments and so on. So, progress that gives someone hope might make someone else remember the last time someone pretended to change only to revert. It's so hard to know when all you have is snapshots from a person, you can't be sure and everyone handles that differently, and that's ok. It's part of the diversity that helps humanity be flexible. But we should all be mindful to withhold final judgment. Until they've settled into their new selves for a while.
@@steggopotamus I agree with this so much! It’s honestly better for progress to be a little slower if it’s more likely to be lasting, than to be fast enough that it causes someone to back up. As long as she’s moving in the right direction, we need to encourage her rather than hand-slap her for not moving faster. Imagine if we slapped the hands of toddlers for not moving fast enough instead of encouraging them in the steps and falters they make in their efforts.
honestly? im really happy for them. nothing can be done to undo the harm they caused, but thats okay. id rather they learn eventually than dig in their heels because its "too late" to turn back. i hope theyre happier now for having had this level of growth.
Agree - I think that anxiety about backlash from the church and lack of welcome from other communities can make people afraid to change or publicly retract earlier opinions.
@@MikeHawk-c5t then why try to comment on others. You know spamming words is useless, why use them? I mean you know using your brain is fruitless so you already don't use that, but why not also stfu? You desperately want to cause harm but you say that words don't hurt, so why talk? After all, its much more Christian to be docile, blindly following and quiet. Go be quiet.
girl what she started talking about she's changing her beliefs to just making sure that everybody is loved and that unlocked some deep trauma in me and i started tearing up-
My seven year old got shunned by her friends once they found out she's not religious. Broke my heart. Religion should bring love and acceptance, not hate and judgement.
I went to a public elementary school that was pretty much run by Mormons. I was told things like it’s too bad I was going to hell and that I was a liar since I never went to church. So much hate. And at that age it’s obviously just that these kids have been taught to think this way. So sad
The Barbie movie video made me predict that Bethany and Dav were going to leave mainstream "Christianity" after Dav said he was deconstructing but still believes, but was questioning. Im happy for them to be able to think for themselves and decide for themselves what they believe instead of it being dictated
I had similar thoughts back then, although I had a feeling they would end up divorcing, since he seemed to be developing views that would be contradicting Bethanys. But seeing that they grow together and seem to have very challenging conversations changes that. Love that for them.
*Bethany:* comes out about past dishonesty, removes bad content she made from the internet, is honest about how much of conservativism is created by societal pressure, gently loosens her grip on religion and religion's grip on herself, accepts and supports her husband through deconstruction *Me:* "... you know what? Good for her. Godspeed, Bethany."
My pastor said the whole “don’t be so open minded that your brain falls out” in a sermon once and I left the church after that. I’m not gonna listen to anyone who is so close minded, their brain rotted … I’m happy for Dav!
To be fair, that's a saying I like, because it's a skeptic's phrase! It just means, 'don't blindly believe without proper evidence.' Which... Ironically, is why a lot of skeptics use it against Christians...
"Don't be so open-minded that your brain falls out." :::::Uncritically accepts the marriage of religion with nationalism and with the ideology and goals of a particular American political party:::: ::::Uncritically worships a cruel, sadistic malignant narcissist who ticks off every box for the Antichrist and buys his limited-edition Bible printed in Chinnnnnnnaaaaaa::::::
@@haleyzwaal4183yeah it's intent is moreso meant to warn people about being gullible or naive than it is warning them against being open minded. it's basically just another way of saying you should have some level of discernment and not necessarily just believe everything you're told. which is actually the exact opposite of what most of these christian people have been taught, most of them have been taught to listen to everything their told, for no other reason than that it's from their religion or someone above them in said religion is spewing it.
spending a single day with paul and morgan being the final straw that makes bethanys husband just straight up leave the whole church is in fact hilarious
I deeply appreciate how, for the general good, her stances have changed. Just her realizing she values love and how she wants everyone to be safe is a drastic change. Her talking about accepting her child if they come out as gay brought me to the edge of tears. I am actually excited to see where she ends up because I can see her actually doing well and helping undo some of the damage they did in the past. And it really helps that she has her husband by her side. He's understanding and able to talk with her and support her through this and it can't be said enough how much that helps.
It was sort of funny to her her say "bring your person" rather than "bring your boyfriend", she's definitely trying but those old habits are hard to break. At least she's not picking fights with LGBTQ people now .
Unfortunately I am still very skeptical about Bethany because Girl Defined has a new book coming out called Made To Be She (the synopsis seems HIGHLY transphobic). Good for Dav though!
Bethany is only one of a LOT of parts of GD, like her entire family runs it and the "ministry", so Bethany doesn't have much of a say. Like yes, it would be MUCH better fir her to cut that off but I also understand the nuance with her, dav, and their children needing money to pay the bills. It's HARD to deconstruct especially publicly
I lowkey predicted this back when Covid started and we were all on lockdown; I was able to clock from jump that Girl Defined only existed to offset Bethany and Kristen's INEVITABLE deconstruction!
I just caught up with Trixie Mattel's take on them, where she says that they look like they're both called Ashley. Sorry, Ashleys of the world, it was really funny the way she said it.
I watched Zelph's videos leading up to this and was so excited with them when the collab happened! I have since unsubscribed from them for other reasons (nothing super problematic, so if people want to check them out then I see no reason not to), but it was a very fun journey.
Speaking of sharing a different perspective, you are one of the RUclipsrs I watched years ago to learn about a perspective and viewpoint different from my own. I was raised Jehovah's Witness- very closed off from the world around me. How you talk in your videos is very conversational and definitely helped me to see how the world isn't as scary as I was told it was. I ended up leaving the religion. I'm queer and trans and run a local LGBTQ Support Group. I don't know if you'll read this, but if you did, know that you have helped make a difference in at least one person's life, who is now trying to share that with others.
IM SO RELIEVED TO HEAR THAT DAVE IS GETTING OUT!!! ive been rooting for him for ages and lately it seemed like he was getting really close. i was worried about the impact on his mental health if he had continued surrounding himself with repression despite his clear awareness. im also glad bethany is with him. she seemed way less open than him, but she has clearly been thinking more critically. also, i REALLY appreciate that she said OUT LOUD that she does not have to understand someone in order to respect them. like that should be common knowledge but it isn't!! even some people within the LGBT community refuse to grasp this concept.
Dav is gonna burn out and I'm predicating their divorce. I'm sorry, but I feel Dav's strong resentment towards Christianity. It was so obvious in his tone when he was in podcasts with Zelph. Can't blame him. He was raised in restricted environment and married to extremely conservative woman. He feels trapped. He's clearly trying to conceal it for the sake of his family and marriage. Maybe, he's hoping that his wife will change but that's a pipe dream of his. Unfortunately, the only way for them to stay married is for Bethanie to become non religious or secular Christian. That's what Dav truly wants. It's a complex situation, he has kids with his wife but his wife is too religious and that makes Dav more anxious I believe. I think he's staying in the marriage for his kids and the hope of Bethanie's changing values but at this point, I can tell that it will backfire at him. He will eventually cut off ties with his wife then fade away from the internet to live as a regular guy in a quiet and peaceful headspace.
While I don't want to ever really forgive them for the harm that's been caused already I am very happy to see this change nonetheless. I always want to have hope that people can grow and change, no matter how "bad" they were originally. I don't know how much they want to change or how long it will take for them to make those changes but I do want to root for them in the meantime.
An interesting trend I've noticed is that when a couple leaves the faith it usually starts with the husband. Her husband became atheist and only then did she consider other ideas, bc she's taught to be subservient to her husband over anyone else.
On the exmormon subreddit I've seen every combination. Sometimes the husband leaves the religion but the wife stays solidly mormon, sometimes the husband leaves and the wife stays faithful but softens a bit and stays that way, sometimes they both sort of realize at the same time (alyssa on youtube, forget her channel name) sometimes the wife goes first and all possible permutations are present there too. Sometimes it ends in divorce, sometimes not, even for mixed faith situations. Each person has their own journey to take, and when the women leave first it's often because of some doctrine that feels unjust for how women are treated.
If husbands/fathers leave a faith or arrive to a faith, the rest of their family is statistically much more likely to follow than if a wife/mother leaves or arrives.
Love how Dave gives answers that are really thoughtful, articulate and clearly his words and Paul is just quickly regurgitating Bible verses and buzz phrases in a panic. I don’t think he expected pushback like that.
I am the least bit surprised it's Bethany coming out with this. I always got the impression that Bethany was always trying to catch up while Kristen didn't feel the need to put on much of a performance
I really appreciate your take on allowing people to grow. I myself was raised Catholic and was taught a lot of really harmful things growing up. It's so very easy to internalise it at that stage, when everyone around you tells you that's the correct way to live (and also you're threatened with eternal damnation almost every week haha 😅). It takes work to confront and unlearn all of that, and it doesn't all happen at once. At least it didn't for me (Though one might argue it's still happening. Some things like to linger.)
I'm gay and I no longer have issue with them. I do not even need official apology bc visible change is more important to me. I saw the video of announcement that her husband is leaving church. I saw that she was more happy than in any other video and that makes me happy too
@@rosieglowsSo the fruit is actually called "kiwifruit" and not "kiwi"? Idk why but I always thought the fruit was just called a "kiwi" and that they were related to New Zealand in some way which is why people from New Zealand are also kiwis lol
It's referred to as kiwifruit in Australia and New Zealand, as Kiwi refers to either the bird or people from New Zealand. But the fruit is commonly shortened to just "kiwi" in other countries. I'm British and we call the fruit both kiwi and kiwifruit. I think in the US and Canada it's commonly just called kiwi as well. The nickname for New Zealanders comes from the bird. The original comment was just a joke anyway. They weren't confused, they knew that the channel name is referring to being from New Zealand, but was making a joke about kiwis being fruity because of the fruit. Just a play on words. @@robfortune6
I'm glad to see Bethany and Dav growing as people, I hope they continue to improve and expand their views. They've still done a ton of harm, that's undeniable. Who knows, maybe their turnaround on (some of) the queer community will inspire some of their younger viewers. I would love to see a behind the scenes of how the rest of the family are handling things, though.
i like this turn happening, and i also experienced this radical change in my own life. i wasnt originally hired by one manager where i work bc my FB had "protect trans kids" as my banner and he didnt want that kind of person working with him. i was obviously hired in another department and secretly told about this bts moment but then told "ya when u helped for a week in his dept, idk what went down but he said if u ever wanted to change he wants u LOL" and i was like "lol damn ok, thats cool i made him less prejudice!" hard cut a year later of working at this company and was given more bts of this person (who is ordained and wants to one day be a church official) asked my boss what my pronouns were bc he was making such drastic accepting changes to his core beliefs and i still think of this and feel so proud of him and am really happy to continue to work with him. he is absolutely someone i would have seen that deep into the religion as girl defined was, and to see so many radically christian viewing people just suddenly stop and go "wait...no bc the people i am interacting with so frequently, they are people and i now see that the bible is not so black and white and we should be more accepting" its so...i dont want to say 'cute' bc that sounds condescending, but i find it very precious and beautiful to watch take place. these are times when i think we as people might just be ok, after all
As someone who deconstructed my evangelical upbringing and ended up as a queer progressive Christian, I wish them the best of luck on their journey - wherever it may lead them. Even though I'm somehow not an atheist after all the crap I endured, I can sadly still see why these toxic church environments drive people to lose faith. In any case, I hope they do the right thing and work to publicly denounce the dangerous rhetoric they've promoted in the past.
@@MikeHawk-c5t At first I thought maybe you were asking a good faith question. But then I saw that you were harassing other people in the comments, so I'm not going to give you the satisfaction. What does the phrase "love your neighbor as yourself" mean to you? What does "judge not lest ye be judged" mean to you?" What does "remove the plank from your own eye" mean to you?
I stepped away from the fundie update scene a while back because it just got so frustrating. Seeing this video in my feed is blowing my mind!!! I remember hearing about a video where they discussed questioning their faith but I assumed it was just the usual “this only made it stronger!” experience. I have so much to catch up on!
The idea of "lol i can't be a feminist i love jesus" is so wild and so telling of their beliefs about feminism and either internalized misogyny or completely misinterpreting how the bible feels about women
Come on. The Bible isn’t a feminist book, and there are plenty of verses in there that support my point. Religions are inherently misogynistic. Men are the head of the house. You’ll try to twist this into something feminist but the truth is, there are 2 adults in the home, and only one is making decisions while the other is following like a child. The women, of course. That isn’t feminist. And I’m not even digging deeper.
I'm not surprised at all... As a hardcore Christian who doesn't define myself as what a typical Christian would be, I see so many of these ppl fall of because they spend so much of their life following other people's rules that they don't actually follow the religion on their own they follow people
As someone who had my own deconstruction journey, I think it’s a lot like getting sober. It doesn’t happen overnight and it’s not as simple as the “all or nothing/sober or using” mentality that people like to apply. It’s little steps. It’s realizing that your actions hurt people and trying your best to do less harm going forward. You try and do a little less harm everyday, and it gets to feel more natural as time goes on. I’m glad that they’re starting to take those steps. I also completely agree. There is no obligation to forgive someone who has deconstructed. They are still responsible for their past actions and it’s okay to hold them responsible.
I do feel that the comments on the harm caused by girl defined is definitely a valid conversation, however as a person who also came from a very conservative upbringing and toxic Christian views, the deconstruction takes time. You usually start inward and work out, it seems like she is in the redefining stage, what do I still believe and what can I let go. Once she goes through that process she will better be able to understand the harm caused and actually (hopefully) be able to meaningfully address it. This is a long road for them, but I’m glad to see even those who seem so entrenched in the more toxic aspects can learn and grow and I hope she is able to continue down this path and end up in a healthier place.
this is so great to see as someone who used to have a similar mindset and has now changed. I do hope that they will see the damage they've done though.
it doesn't surprise me that dav deconstructed, wasn't he forced into conversion therapy? that man was traumatized by the institution who claimed to love him. edit: he didn't go to conversion therapy. a commenter corrected me and i googled to make sure it was true before editing.
Bethany was the only one who saved her first kiss so it makes sense that she’s starting to question everything. Rachel Oates has really good in depth commentary about them. I believe she has a video about this topic also.
I started as a christian and was homophobic and i even voted for trump. I have since come out of the closet, I have since become a pretty firm socialist a punk and I am polyamorous with my chosen queer family. It really just took getting out of the influence of the church for me be able to self reflect and grow as a person.
@@MikeHawk-c5ton the contrary being Republican is akin to being stupid. I mean look at all the "parents" unschooling their kids because they think they're being brainwashed (the school isn't but the parents sure are brainwashing their own kids, case in point, you and your mother.) just because YOU lack a brain and empathy doesn't mean that others don't lack a brain and empathy.
lol this kinda reminds me of how in hs i was one of those christians who said "it's a choice to be gay" because i WAS gay and i was actively choosing to deny that side of me for so long.
I loved that video a lot. Especially talking about the part of accepting growth but also reminding people that horrible actions from the past are not a "must" to forgive. Some things are unforgivable so there is no need to forgive BUT realizing that people can change
I have been following this really closely… there is a lottttt behind the scenes. When they went to visit Zelph on the Shelf, they really didn’t get into it enough…. Lots of questions left unanswered. But it was enough for the backlash to cause them to basically go into hiding. Dav deleted his social medias (which he was sharing a lot of literature he was reading about faith and atheism and all sorts of things), and Bethany pretty much only does Girl Defined content because that’s how she makes her money (IMO). But I think they stopped speaking to Zelph for the time being as well (Zelph showed a quick text exchange of Dav telling them they’re going to stop chatting for now)…. I get the feeling they’re doing a LOT of growing… it seems like they’re falling deeper in love…. But their family/friend groups are likely really stressing them out now. It would be really hard to deconstruct in the middle of all of that, but I hope it’s going well. 💛
Seeing Dav and Bethany’s progress honestly gives me so much hope in this dark time. I remember seeing signs that Dav was starting to deconstruct however, I fully expected that if he proceeded down that path, it would lead Bethany to divorce him rather than examining her own beliefs. What a wonderful surprise to see that instead, Dav deconstructing was the catalyst Bethany needed to step back and assess her own beliefs. Although they’re not fully there and don’t seem to acknowledge the part they’ve played in harming others in the past, I have to acknowledge how difficult it can be to dissect your beliefs in an impartial, open-minded way when you’ve been taught that there is only one correct line of thinking your entire life. Now I’m really curious how Dav and Bethany’s journey has impacted Kristen. I’d also really love to ask Dav, “what was the spark that ignited your initial desire to reevaluate your values and beliefs in the first place?” Especially considering how much propaganda is floating around currently, I’m very curious how someone like Dav, who has been surrounded by exclusively like-minded people his entire life is able to escape the pipeline long enough to question his beliefs in the first place.
You are a product of your environment until YOU decide to step out I heard it my whole life and never understood until I had to step outside of my environment
As someone who grew up in the evangelical church and was a virgin when I got married at 20 and eventually deconstructed throughout my 20s. It took me a whole decade to “deprogram” some deeply rooted beliefs and I’m still working on some of them as I approach my 40s. Some of us grow up in purity culture and really feel like we are doing something good and loving and not wrong by going all in on it. I think we can underestimate what growing up being programmed into these briefs can do to people. I too am very embarrassed by some of the things I did and believed when still in it.
I don't appreciate those who have a change of heart and become enlightened AFTER taking the light out of others for years. They could very well have a long meditation in private intead of teaching girls all over the world to damage themselves. People's lives are not someone training spots!
@@meiimacca4054 it’s frustrating to see. her redemption has a hefty price, and it’s largely paid for by the people she harmed. which just isn’t fair or right. I’ve grown up in a fundamental church environment as well, but no amount of praise or fame would convince me to willingly spread something I don’t fully believe in, knowing it might be harmful to people.
👏 👏 👏 thank you for acknowledging all the positives in this situation. I saw a really disappointing take the other day because it was only the negative and as someone who grew up in this community that made me so sad. I can’t help but think the example to the young Christian’s who follow her out there seeing someone grow and change could be very powerful and help them get out of that box. I hope that she continues on the journey toward enlightenment.
Also (from someone who grew up Christian) sometimes when you have someone in your life who isn’t part of the echo chamber you can feel safe enough to explore different possibilities outside the box you’ve been in your whole life.
I really hope that her changing opinions can help others in her previous community perhaps go down a similar path. If she's able to do it and get positive responses then hopefully it'll make others who might feel similarly less afraid.
this is good, hopefully she can be less shackled down now and let herself be happy in love. christianity should be about love and mutual respect and that is all! however she needs to try and undo the damage she has inflicted on others, specifically young impressionable christian girls
I love that all it took was 24 hours with Paul and Morgan to decide he needed to leave
that’s honestly so valid
The most destructive action you can do to something you believe in is so defend it badly. And that's what they were doing lol
We should crowdfund a "sending Paul to X" fund and just having him shipped off to people we see a glimmer of potential in and see if 24 hours with him can turn them, too. I'd make reality TV of it. Like wife swap, but only adding Paul to an existing fundie family.
"After meeting Paul my daughter can wear whatever she likes because and I'm putting aside money for her dream to become an attorney because that man was a reflection of myself I didn't like and I do not want to risk her ever marrying a man like him. Here is footage of me cooking and doing the laundry because my wife is off bowling for five hours with her friends because adult interactions without children is good."
It would take everything in my conservative father's power not to chuck Paul out a window.
Lmao
somebody i saw on tiktok predicted this on her 2024 bingo card and i genuinely did not see it coming
It definitely wasn't on my bingo card lol
I pretty much expected it from Dav, but Bethany is a surprise to me. Honestly, good for them. They can stop doing damage and hopefully live happier, more fulfilled lives.
Eh. When a partner loses their religion they think. And you tend to talk to your partner about it.
She like also wanted him, the man, to be the religious leader of the house. Which she lost when he deconverted
people are actually making bingo cards trying to predict stuff??
@dutchik5107 deconversion isn't something I'm familiar with deconstruction is something I'm familiar with. Was he a convert to the church to begin with? I'm not being a jerk genuinely curious if this is the more appropriate term.
they started having better sex and questioned their entire existence.
honestly though, dave was on a path to deconstruction. good on them, but they have caused so much harm these last few years
Real life redemption arcs are possible with the miracle of Atheism! ❤
They can heal some of the wounds. It's going to be VERY painful for them because it's going to require introspection and an ACTUAL apology. Really apologizing is hard, it's uncomfortable, and no one wants to be that vulnerable; but if they fully understand and learn about the damage they caused they could pull it off. I'll always look at them with suspicion, but if they apologize and keep pulling their weight in fixing everything I'll at least respect them.
Dude I did not know about this podcast. Thank you for going over this ❤
There are going to be people who never forgive them-and they're not obligated to. But, it's better that they can stop doing even more harm. Redemption means you won't always obtain forgiveness but you need to try doing better despite that.
Is this why the men fear women enjoying sex? Could we solve all our problems with ex. in the communion wine ? (yes that's a joke drugging people against their will is bad)
I never thought I’d see the day…and honestly good for them. I hope they also come to realize just how much damage they’ve done to people though.
Thats my only issue here. I've not seen anything about Bethy acknowledging the harm that she's done. That's when I'll believe she's turned a corner. I suspect as long as she holds onto her Christian beliefs she will always feel like her old crap came from a place of Christian love so it couldn't have been wrong, even though some of her opinions have changed. I would not expect to see that level of taking responsibility from her unless she fully deconstructs as well.
@@rebeccaramsey1274 I feel like her husband deconstructing will help influence her in that way. Especially if she believes real Christianity means fixing the harm you’ve done.
@@ErutaniaRose I hope so. Previous to Dav's deconstruction I always said that I had no hope for these two women ever changing and I definitely blamed it on their upbringing. I'm glad to see him growing and I hope Bethany continues to do so as well, even if she remains a Christian. I was wrong about there being no hope, but I still don't expect drastic changes from her, honestly.
@@rebeccaramsey1274 Not that this excuses things but I think it’s important to remember that she was essentially raised in what some see as a cult. Where you either fall in line or your treatment is harsh. The fear of hell is very real & traumatizing for people. So at this point, her even coming this far is huge. It doesn’t automatically make her forgiven for previous hateful comments, but I do think she should be shown some grace & acknowledgment that these changes are huge progress in the right direction. I guess only time will tell but it’s going to take a while for her to see things from the perspective of others.
@@kristalefler3312 I definitely blame it on the cult like upbringing. Not fully excusing it, but I understand she didn't have a choice really til recently.
You could have given me all the time in the world and I would never have guessed that in the same year Cody Ko got cancelled, Bethany of girl defined would have a redemption arc
Especially since I first heard of girl defined from him. It's really come full circle and yk, I'm glad that Bethany and Dav are exploring more about themselves, especially since they both seem much happier/ at peace now.
Holy SHIT yes talk about full circle??!? Bizarre 😭
It's all coming full circle
Oh damn I forgot Cody. What a wild year have it been so far.
This timeline is insane
“don’t be so open minded that you’re brain falls out” lets try “don’t be so closed minded that you’re brain starts collecting dust”
Like, that phrase is literally meant to be about conspiracy theories. Not about cussing a little bit, which hasn't harmed anyone in... *checks notes* ever.
The funny thing is, Paul could have instead said: "Hey uh... it kinda bothers me when people swear around me. As my friend, could you maybe tone it down when we're together, just for my comfort?" And that might have been fine. I have two religious friends around whom I keep the Lord's name outta my dang mouth because I want my friends to have a comfortable, safe space with me. But we all understand that this doesn't mean I'm a bad person for swearing elsewhere.
@@Broeckchenyou know “not saying the lord’s name in vain” isn’t about saying omg or goddamn? It’s when Christians invoke his name to judge people. Your friends would be the ones going to hell according to their religion, not you.
implodes*
How would you know they’re closed minded when your brain is in the floor?
@@MikeHawk-c5thuh
I'm currently experiencing what I can only describe as disbelief that my silly little "headcanon" became canon.
You got headcanons about real people? 💀
@@HiAgainTheNameIsStillAyle You use human headbone emoticons to express amusement? ♻️👴🚷
@@HiAgainTheNameIsStillAyle I think it's more like silly "what ifs"
@@HiAgainTheNameIsStillAyle Lol no. I don't fuck with real people like that. I meant it as a metaphorical comparison.
@@yoyohan9 Oh ok
we’re getting non-christian girl defined before gta 6 basically
In the same year the Cody Ko got cancelled. The timeline has reached full circle.
😭
The Bible does explicitly state what modesty is though. According to the Bible modesty is dressing in such a way that you do not flaunt your wealth. So in modern day terms, it would be not wearing clothing with the brand names printed on them, and wearing understated jewelry. If they had actually taken the time to read the Bible, they would know that biblical modesty has nothing to do with how much skin you’re showing! Did they even read the Bible?
That reminds me of them saying tou couldn't wear braids and stuff in your hair....while having a braid in their hair.
Haha exactly. And there are versus saying that you shouldn't look like "temple prostitutes" (which we don't even HAVE anymore, and are completely different from sex workers). I feel like so many pastors just took that p word and ran with it. And the modesty they spoke of mostly came from Bill Gothard's IBLP teaching (you know, the wisdom booklets the Duggars loved).
Just like in the original version of the Bible where it says "Man shall not lie with man" it uses two different words for man, because it actually translated to "Man shall not lie with boys". So thus it was condemning pedophiles not homosexuality.
They seem to skip over a bunch of what Jesus said to do.
@@NekoMimiMisa I actually think it does say man, but it’s not the fact that it’s homosexuality that is the problem. It’s that a man shouldn’t submit to another man. Men were at the top of the hierarchy at that time and it was considered VERY taboo for a man to willingly allow himself to be put in a submissive position.
While watching this video, I had 2 things to say.
#1 Dave leaving the church and deconstructing doesn't necessarily make him an atheist. He could very well be agnostic.
#2 Bethany hasn't said much about regretting the harm that girl defined has created. She has said that she regrets the content itself.
I think that it would be even more interesting to hear if she actually regrets the harm that her content has caused. ❤
An agnostic atheist, or an agnostic theist?
@@mr.perfectcell1887 who tf cares after all the harm Bethany has done?! It's the bigger point here
@@mr.perfectcell1887Thank you for calling that out. For anyone who doesn't know "gnostic" is the term for knowledge, agnostic is the term for people who don't claim absolute knowledge of whether or not God exists and if more religious people were truthful with themselves they'd be agnostic.
I thought the same thing on your #1 point. I was raised fundamentalist Christian and when I was deconstructing it wasn't just fundamentalist Christian to full-blown atheist. It was non-denominational Christian, then deist, then a brief Buddhist phase, then agnostic atheist, then gnostic atheist, and finally I've settled at agnostic atheist. It's a long and complicated journey, I'm sure there are plenty of people who do go from super religious to gnostic atheist but when you're starting off that extreme I don't think that that abrupt shift is the norm. The whole point of deconstructing is breaking everything apart piece by piece, not just waking up one day and throwing all of the most fundamental beliefs you've based your life upon out the window.
having watched at least the whole p1 of the Zelf on the Shelf interview, I think she's caught between her sister and her own growth in that regard. Apparently their channel content can sometimes represent things that one of the sisters doesn't wholly agree with and they have to negotiate what they say, which would explain why they aren't so active anymore. Extrapolating from that, I think she's probably at a place where she recognises some of the harm, but not enough to call it out knowing that it could hurt her sister and their relationship, as her sister still believes a lot of those things.
Hopefully over time she'll reach a place where she recognises that she can't simultaneously live with love for everyone and also not say anything when her loved ones (and her past self) harm people, even if it'll make her loved ones upset if she speaks out.
I think the best way to refer to Bethany for the time being, is that while not an ally, she may no longer be an enemy
Right, at least there's one fewer gun pointed at us.
And it makes sense how humans, being so social, would semi subconsciously conform to the community. Like they know they're doing it, but they're rationalizing it to themselves in a way that made them believe their own lies enough.
Ally curious. Sorry bad joke 😂
She's Switzerland
@@SaintShion no no thats a good joke, its funny! we can laugh XD
@@SaintShion😂😂 👏🏻
I sing in a church choir as a non-christian. The church is accepting and inclusive in the sense that it celebrates queer people and has gay ministers. A lot of leftists attend this church and it kinda blows my mind how a lot of other churches are so right wing and conservative, just because it's so different to what I've experienced
That church understood the assignment. Jesus welcomed the outcast with open arms, good to see up to the leadership follow that example.
Good for you and this church
@@ruffethereal1904 Exactly.
Exactly, that’s how mine is.
your church is definitely in the minority, I'm glad you've had positive church experiences tho most people have all that spoiled for them from an early age
i love seeing youtubers react to her with such compassion! its important to acknowledge the harm girl defined has caused and work to correct it and prevent it moving forward, but having been in her shoes to some extent, i'm really proud of the growth we're able to see (obviously we only get a glimpse!) and even when they say stuff i disagree with, i always admire bethany and dave's dynamic and support of each other and the way they engage in the tough convos they choose to share with us. seems like a healthy relationship for them, even if i dont understand it for myself all the time!
I agree. It’s impressive that they found a special kind of love to work through such a drastic spiritual and physical life change together! Good for them honestly.
Agreed, but as long as Bethany doesn't acknowledge how much harm she's done and apologizes, that doesn't mean a lot
@@Amira_Phoenixyep; that’s exactly it. She needs to acknowledge it or else it seems a bit too fake.
Zero actual harm was caused.
Zero actual harm was caused.
I could be totally wrong abt this (pls correct me if I am) but I don’t think Dave has come out to define himself as an “atheist,” he’s openly spoken about “deconstructing,” but that doesn’t automatically make him an atheist- again I could absolutely be wrong and maybe I just missed something but from what I’ve seen, Dave has just openly expressed that he’s deconstructing his beliefs and values.
This doesn’t mean that he’s an atheist. Many Christian’s deconstruct and remain Christian afterwards or become agnostic rather than atheist.
Not to say that being an atheist is AT ALL a bad thing!!!
I just wanted to make sure someone spoke out abt this.
(Again correct me if I’m wrong)
im an ex-mormon and currently agnostic. all of my siblings have also left the church, except one sister who passed away a couple years back. all of us range from remaining christian or full atheist. we also have explored other faiths along the way (my brother practiced buddhism for a while, i personally was interested in judiasm after speaking with my sister-in-law who grew up jewish). it's interesting the different paths people can take from the way they were raised. even having talks with my sibling who more or less remained christian (he occassionally goes to a progressive church but his faith pretty much begins and ends at believing in god and jesus, and praying for guidance) doesn't really shake my beliefs, though i do understand why he has remained faithful. he finds comfort in "knowing" what happens when you die in a way that i just don't. i really think that's what it all boils down to lol
No, you're right. I don't think he's declared his actual beliefs anywhere yet, just that he's deconstructing his old beliefs.
Being an atheist is fundamentally anti science. Something can’t come from nothing
plus, there is also always the possibility of being drawn to a different path or belief system. whether that be another more organized religion, or a more loose and ancient belief system like animism or the various types of paganism as well.
24 hours with Paul would make me question the existence of god.
Actively cackled out loud at this
Paul doing God's work. :D
It’s 10:01 pm in my time zone, and my tired brain read the title of the video as “Girl defined is leaving the couch”
Crying with laughter
Meanwhile, JD Vance STILL won't leave the couch
@@epiclionsault92 OH MY GOD 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I will never leave the couch
@@epiclionsault92
👁️ 👄 👁️
My hot take of the day is that it's actually good to see where bigots are coming from. When you have this mental image of "the bigot," it's really really hard to spot when people in your life are being prejudiced. Because hey, that's my aunt Marnie, she's so nice, she could never be a bigot! When we accept that bigots are people, it is much easier to recognize the problematic behavior in those closest to us and in ourselves.
Plus, if you understand where a bigot is coming from, it can give you an idea of how you might be able to get through to them. From there, you can get them to understand why their bigoted beliefs/views are problematic and need to be changed.
@@johnwalker1058it’s hilarious yall actually think you’re the good ones 😂😂😂😂
Your kind is farrrr more problematic for society
@@MikeHawk-c5t sorry for believing in empathy, human rights, and that people have the ability to grow, I guess?
@@MikeHawk-c5t well lets see for aa second women were treated like property before feminism, people that look like me were animals and gay people just for liking something over something else and without even doing anything to hurt anyone would be put to death. leave the bronze age open your eyes get some perspective on the lives of people outside your bubble and reach the 21st century.
As a liberal Catholic the way Fundamentalists use the Bible is bizarre to me. Like there's entire academic disciplines dedicated to understanding the historical context and meaning of the books as they were written thousands of years ago, meanwhile entire denominations of people are just going off taking the modern English translation as literally and out of context as possible
And they don't even talk about the funny bits, like how before Daniel translates The Writing On The Wall he roasts the shit out of the king and /then/ he translates it
Or how Jonah is an overdramatic teenager DEEP into his emo phase
Why am I supposed to care about this cherry picked verse from the one translation that says what they want it to is supposed to mean? I could be laughing at Elijah's sarcasm that was awesome enough that there's a record of it even thousands of years later
Drop the superior attitude. Absolutely bonkers for one sky-wizard-believer to talk shit about another because the other believes Io Pater keeps his beard trimmed like a modern chud instead of an ancient Roman
That's because it's not about learning what the text actually meant contextually, it's about controlling people.
It's because evangelicalism is arguably more of a political ideology than a theological one. The interpretation of Scripture is meant to justify their political beliefs, not vice versa.
Evangelicalism evolved from American colonial ideology meant to justify westward expansion, slavery, indigenous genocide, etc, so all of the seemingly weird decisions make sense when you look at it in the historical context that it was meant to justify all of the worst aspects of American history. It also has a lot of influence from distinctly non-Christian spiritualism and occultism from the late 19th century, so a lot of the practices aren't even Christian in origin.
Interestingly enough, there are a lot of distinctly American Christian groups that are equally as old but distinctly more liberal (such as the quakers, who very much still exist on the East Coast).
All in all, this is a pretty American phenomenon. Even American Catholics tend to be much more conservative than their European counterparts.
?? omg i follow you on tumblr haha! i think i started because you made a post about the racial dynamics of the lighteyes and darkeyes in the stormlight archives. really cool post btw
I have been (embarrassingly) keeping up with girl defined through a different RUclipsr and this has been coming for a while now. Her husband for a while was on the path to deconstruction but Bethany was followed behind him, just at a much slower rate. From smaller comments over the year like being disillusioned by sex that she was taught would just… work once you got married and obviously didn’t because neither understood what to do. While for some a crazy way of starting a long process to deconstruction, for her who is in so deep with purity culture I’m sure it was eye opening for her. Since then, while really slow you can see her just not being happy in the faith so I am not surprised at all.
Does it excuse the pain and misinformation she helped spread for years? No she still caused a lot of damage. But that doesn’t stop me from being happy for her and beginning her journey. It’s not an easy thing by a long shot, especially for someone who grew up so clearly staunchly religious
Thank you for this comment.
What about her sister?
She seems like she's genuinely grown so much and cares a lot more about people and those around her than following these strict rules. It just makes me so hopeful for the world.
she did -in this interview-. But if you follow the Fundie Snark subreddit, the stuff that she put out on girl defined post-interview were all the same sort of messaging as previously. I just unfortunately wouldn't put much faith in what Bethany says about her "new views" since her grift doesn't rely on what she personally believes, it relies on what she's willing to keep saying to sell to her audience.
@@hexonyou take what you see in that sub with a grain of salt, there’s a reason that there is a snark sub for THAT sub. They go far beyond critiquing hateful views. They pick apart literally every move these people make, they’re basically damned if they do and damned if they don’t. In turn it gets to where the criticizers are no better than those they’re criticizing.
she just dropped the act, she literally admitted it was all the act
@@kristalefler3312 Exactly.
And her whole vibe has shifted accordingly, and it's amazing to see! Before, she radiated disingenuous passive-aggressive mean girl vibes that made my amygdala scream, and now, she seems much more like a real, authentic person that I could feel safe and comfortable around.
People can really change a lot. When I was growing up I was always told that being gay is bad, and now my mom knows I'm bi and trans and fully accepts me. I'm pretty sure dad also knows we just haven't actually talked about it cause he's not gonna ask and I'm not gonna bring it up but he doesn't really have a problem with it. They've made a lot of progress in the past 4 years and I'm proud of them for it.
My same sentiment 😊❤ sometimes we have to walk an embarrassing and rough road to realize who our true selves are.
Congrats for you and your parents
My dad and i are also basically don't ask don't tell. I'm ok w it. I'm 35 years old, i am living my life without talking around anything, and i don't need him to talk to me about it, just to be respectful (ie don't actively say rude things). He used to be homophobic, racist, transphobic and now i'm dating a gay black trans man and we went to dinner and he was civil. Note: i DID disclose this to my partner ahead of time and he consented to this situation, i would NEVER pressure a black person to be around someone who has a racist history.
@@SpecialBlanket I'm only 17 and still live at home so part of it is also cause WHAT IF he reacts badly. I don't think he would but I'd rather not take the chance.
I'm proud of them too but the dark truth is that the change only came when those horrible beliefs directly negatively impacted those they love and them personally. We are not a large % of the population as a whole community of lgbtq+ (although yes each generation is getting more comfortable being themselves and open) so we are not capable of personally touching through being immediate family of everyone, and pushing them to acknowledge the harm in that way. Especially my trans brothers, sisters, and embies 😢 those who aren't personally affected are also seeing many who are leaving the bubble of hate and then they don't challenge their own beliefs because of it but lash out at the community 😢 I of course hope to see this always. To see parents choose their children over their hate. I guess I'm just sad it has to be that their kids are still growing up terrified to be their authentic self's to their parents at all. 😢
Seeing Rhett and Link's story of deconstruction was so incredible for me personally in my own healing and deconstruction. THIS???? is way more than any of us could have imagined lol. As others have said, there's a lot of harm there that they need to answer for, but in general, I'm gloriously happy about this. Good for them.
Bethany's redemption ark was so unexpected, but it gives me immense hope.
Very very rad!
Her husband is permitted to treat her with respect. Unlike Paul treats Morgan, which oozes emotional abuse.
Permitted by whom? Isn't that his moral duty?
It's so interesting seeing the difference as well, the deconstructing couple have a healthy loving relationship, the still religious and bigoted couple have an emotionally abusive relationship
I grew up in a toxic Christian environment where girl defined was a gold standard for young women. It always rubbed me the wrong way, even as a tween/young teen. I left that group in my mid teens because their purity culture and anti gay felt so wrong to me, a young bisexual atheist. And the girls who wholeheartedly believed their rhetoric honestly scared me.
As an ex Catholic I feel this, I stopped believing in that BS when I was eleven, and saw how corrupt religion made my parents and other adults. Good luck on your journey to liberty! You are worth much more that what others tell you.
@Femtoisbackandbetter bait
@FemtoisbackandbetterThat's what Christians believe. After all, their god came from nothing.
@Femtoisbackandbetter Nothing has always been
@Femtoisbackandbetter you're confusing matter with energy. Shows what little you know. Lol
I'm confused at 25:53 bc Bethany doesn't explicitly say she believes in queer rights at all she just says they should be allowed to be together. I'm okay with people celebrating her openness but I think it's still important to be a bit skeptical about people who have acted as figureheads of harmful rhetoric around LGBTQIA+ issues, especially because their work involved targeting young people specifically.
I fully agree with this too. I think right now she is in a crossroad we will see for sure where she goes from there soon enough. My hope is that this is indicative of the change I had when I started deconstructing. I grew up pretty much with the same beliefs I think she holds now that being gay is a sin but people are allowed to do what they want as long as they don’t hurt anyone else. I also grew up loving pureflix movies and thought Christians were persecuted very cringe stuff LOL. I had been stuck in a bubble until 16 and as I met more people I went to being gay isn’t a sin at all but if someone doesn’t want to make a cake for a gay wedding they are within their rights to refuse to completely disagreeing with that previous statement but still thinking that people were pushing the gay agenda way too much on tv until I turned 19 when I realized that I really wasn’t as straight as I wanted to believe, the majority of churches are a cult at worst, hurtful at best, that their ISN’T enough queer rep out there and honestly my ideals have only become more and more open minded and “radical” as time goes on lmao.
Granted the difference between me and her is that I am not white so I experienced discrimination and alienation as a latina in the US, and I am not wealthy. Also the Trump presidency (which happened when I was 16) taught me that the people at my majority white church were the people that cared for me and my people the least. Unbeknownst to them they had turned their back on me who they claimed to love. These are probably the reasons why I deconstructed so quick in the span of 3 years and it took Bethany 30 fucking years. It shouldn’t be like that, a compassionate Godful person should be able to empathize with others pain but unfortunately many people are happy being willfully ignorant until something happens to flip their lives upside down (her husband changing)
For fuck’s sake, how do so many people not understand progress? When I was younger, I was so conservative that I didn’t like Rush Limbaugh because he was too liberal for me. I thought I was being awfully liberal when I finally decided that I could not criminalizing same-sex relationships, and then saw myself as more liberal for supporting civil unions. Now? I’ve officiated same-sex weddings (and call them same-sex since not every marriage between two men or two women is gay, and saying “gay wedding” erased bisexual people, pansexual people, and a whole lot of others).
Considering where Bethany was just a few years ago, she’s made outstanding progress. Deconstructing is a process, and she’s doing so at a much faster rate than even I did. Defining her based on where she was instead of where she’s going is how you help conservatives stay conservative. It is how you, YOU PERSONALLY, harm people. Making our side the side with the open arms, the side encouraging baby steps to keep coming our way, is how you help. When someone is firmly on this side is when we can start expecting them to do the work of starting to undo as much damage as possible.
The word that helps me with this conversation is trajectory.
"While I would wish that she had made more progress by now the overall trajectory of her deconstruction seems promising. I hope my optimism is not misplaced".
Also, it's ok for everyone to have different levels of feeling safe with the exact same levels of progress. Each of us have different experiences, different temperaments and so on. So, progress that gives someone hope might make someone else remember the last time someone pretended to change only to revert.
It's so hard to know when all you have is snapshots from a person, you can't be sure and everyone handles that differently, and that's ok. It's part of the diversity that helps humanity be flexible.
But we should all be mindful to withhold final judgment. Until they've settled into their new selves for a while.
@@steggopotamus I agree with this so much! It’s honestly better for progress to be a little slower if it’s more likely to be lasting, than to be fast enough that it causes someone to back up. As long as she’s moving in the right direction, we need to encourage her rather than hand-slap her for not moving faster. Imagine if we slapped the hands of toddlers for not moving fast enough instead of encouraging them in the steps and falters they make in their efforts.
@@NoelleTakestheSky I get your comment but also not at all.
honestly? im really happy for them. nothing can be done to undo the harm they caused, but thats okay. id rather they learn eventually than dig in their heels because its "too late" to turn back. i hope theyre happier now for having had this level of growth.
Agree - I think that anxiety about backlash from the church and lack of welcome from other communities can make people afraid to change or publicly retract earlier opinions.
No harm was done 😂 words do not cause harm
@@MikeHawk-c5tgirl all you ever do is say nonsense to stir people up…have you tried embroidery or something
@@MikeHawk-c5t then why try to comment on others. You know spamming words is useless, why use them? I mean you know using your brain is fruitless so you already don't use that, but why not also stfu? You desperately want to cause harm but you say that words don't hurt, so why talk? After all, its much more Christian to be docile, blindly following and quiet. Go be quiet.
@Femtoisbackandbetter kinda seems like you're the one crying lmao
girl what she started talking about she's changing her beliefs to just making sure that everybody is loved and that unlocked some deep trauma in me and i started tearing up-
My seven year old got shunned by her friends once they found out she's not religious. Broke my heart. Religion should bring love and acceptance, not hate and judgement.
Religion has never been about that. Religion has always been about power, control, and herd-mindset.
I went to a public elementary school that was pretty much run by Mormons. I was told things like it’s too bad I was going to hell and that I was a liar since I never went to church. So much hate. And at that age it’s obviously just that these kids have been taught to think this way. So sad
The Barbie movie video made me predict that Bethany and Dav were going to leave mainstream "Christianity" after Dav said he was deconstructing but still believes, but was questioning. Im happy for them to be able to think for themselves and decide for themselves what they believe instead of it being dictated
I had similar thoughts back then, although I had a feeling they would end up divorcing, since he seemed to be developing views that would be contradicting Bethanys. But seeing that they grow together and seem to have very challenging conversations changes that. Love that for them.
sometimes I'd imagine Dav playing "I'm Just Ken" on the piano and letting its medicine into his soul
*Bethany:* comes out about past dishonesty, removes bad content she made from the internet, is honest about how much of conservativism is created by societal pressure, gently loosens her grip on religion and religion's grip on herself, accepts and supports her husband through deconstruction
*Me:* "... you know what? Good for her. Godspeed, Bethany."
Godspeed, Bethany!
My pastor said the whole “don’t be so open minded that your brain falls out” in a sermon once and I left the church after that. I’m not gonna listen to anyone who is so close minded, their brain rotted …
I’m happy for Dav!
To be fair, that's a saying I like, because it's a skeptic's phrase! It just means, 'don't blindly believe without proper evidence.' Which... Ironically, is why a lot of skeptics use it against Christians...
@@haleyzwaal4183 that’s fair. Life is all about balance!
"Don't be so open-minded that your brain falls out."
:::::Uncritically accepts the marriage of religion with nationalism and with the ideology and goals of a particular American political party::::
::::Uncritically worships a cruel, sadistic malignant narcissist who ticks off every box for the Antichrist and buys his limited-edition Bible printed in Chinnnnnnnaaaaaa::::::
@@haleyzwaal4183yeah it's intent is moreso meant to warn people about being gullible or naive than it is warning them against being open minded. it's basically just another way of saying you should have some level of discernment and not necessarily just believe everything you're told. which is actually the exact opposite of what most of these christian people have been taught, most of them have been taught to listen to everything their told, for no other reason than that it's from their religion or someone above them in said religion is spewing it.
@@almamartinez767 but he’s right 😂 yall are so open minded; rational critical thinking has left your lexicon
Wow… uhhhhhhhhhh that’s kinda unexpected, but also very expected.
Girl completely undefined
spending a single day with paul and morgan being the final straw that makes bethanys husband just straight up leave the whole church is in fact hilarious
😭😭💀💀💀
Wouldn't you also question if there's a loving, merciful god if you had to spend 24 hours with Paul?
I deeply appreciate how, for the general good, her stances have changed. Just her realizing she values love and how she wants everyone to be safe is a drastic change. Her talking about accepting her child if they come out as gay brought me to the edge of tears. I am actually excited to see where she ends up because I can see her actually doing well and helping undo some of the damage they did in the past. And it really helps that she has her husband by her side. He's understanding and able to talk with her and support her through this and it can't be said enough how much that helps.
It was sort of funny to her her say "bring your person" rather than "bring your boyfriend", she's definitely trying but those old habits are hard to break. At least she's not picking fights with LGBTQ people now .
Unfortunately I am still very skeptical about Bethany because Girl Defined has a new book coming out called Made To Be She (the synopsis seems HIGHLY transphobic). Good for Dav though!
Bethany is only one of a LOT of parts of GD, like her entire family runs it and the "ministry", so Bethany doesn't have much of a say. Like yes, it would be MUCH better fir her to cut that off but I also understand the nuance with her, dav, and their children needing money to pay the bills. It's HARD to deconstruct especially publicly
Okay, but Made to Be She would be a fantastic name for a documentary about a trans woman's journey of self-actualization.
I lowkey predicted this back when Covid started and we were all on lockdown; I was able to clock from jump that Girl Defined only existed to offset Bethany and Kristen's INEVITABLE deconstruction!
I just caught up with Trixie Mattel's take on them, where she says that they look like they're both called Ashley. Sorry, Ashleys of the world, it was really funny the way she said it.
Me: “you’re late I watched fundie Fridays video on this months ago”
Also me: *gonna watch this anyways*
Sameeee I thought more came out about what FF covered
I know Dave was deconstructing but I'm just wondering how long until Bethany does the same
Hahaha Yes.
Same! As someone who has deconstructed, it can take YEARS. It’s been about 10 years since I left my church, and sometimes something still hits me.
I watched Zelph's videos leading up to this and was so excited with them when the collab happened! I have since unsubscribed from them for other reasons (nothing super problematic, so if people want to check them out then I see no reason not to), but it was a very fun journey.
Speaking of sharing a different perspective, you are one of the RUclipsrs I watched years ago to learn about a perspective and viewpoint different from my own. I was raised Jehovah's Witness- very closed off from the world around me. How you talk in your videos is very conversational and definitely helped me to see how the world isn't as scary as I was told it was. I ended up leaving the religion. I'm queer and trans and run a local LGBTQ Support Group. I don't know if you'll read this, but if you did, know that you have helped make a difference in at least one person's life, who is now trying to share that with others.
IM SO RELIEVED TO HEAR THAT DAVE IS GETTING OUT!!! ive been rooting for him for ages and lately it seemed like he was getting really close. i was worried about the impact on his mental health if he had continued surrounding himself with repression despite his clear awareness. im also glad bethany is with him. she seemed way less open than him, but she has clearly been thinking more critically. also, i REALLY appreciate that she said OUT LOUD that she does not have to understand someone in order to respect them. like that should be common knowledge but it isn't!! even some people within the LGBT community refuse to grasp this concept.
Dav is gonna burn out and I'm predicating their divorce. I'm sorry, but I feel Dav's strong resentment towards Christianity. It was so obvious in his tone when he was in podcasts with Zelph. Can't blame him. He was raised in restricted environment and married to extremely conservative woman. He feels trapped. He's clearly trying to conceal it for the sake of his family and marriage. Maybe, he's hoping that his wife will change but that's a pipe dream of his. Unfortunately, the only way for them to stay married is for Bethanie to become non religious or secular Christian. That's what Dav truly wants. It's a complex situation, he has kids with his wife but his wife is too religious and that makes Dav more anxious I believe. I think he's staying in the marriage for his kids and the hope of Bethanie's changing values but at this point, I can tell that it will backfire at him. He will eventually cut off ties with his wife then fade away from the internet to live as a regular guy in a quiet and peaceful headspace.
While I don't want to ever really forgive them for the harm that's been caused already I am very happy to see this change nonetheless. I always want to have hope that people can grow and change, no matter how "bad" they were originally. I don't know how much they want to change or how long it will take for them to make those changes but I do want to root for them in the meantime.
An interesting trend I've noticed is that when a couple leaves the faith it usually starts with the husband. Her husband became atheist and only then did she consider other ideas, bc she's taught to be subservient to her husband over anyone else.
On the exmormon subreddit I've seen every combination. Sometimes the husband leaves the religion but the wife stays solidly mormon, sometimes the husband leaves and the wife stays faithful but softens a bit and stays that way, sometimes they both sort of realize at the same time (alyssa on youtube, forget her channel name) sometimes the wife goes first and all possible permutations are present there too. Sometimes it ends in divorce, sometimes not, even for mixed faith situations.
Each person has their own journey to take, and when the women leave first it's often because of some doctrine that feels unjust for how women are treated.
Deconstructing isn't necessarily the same thing as become an atheist.
If husbands/fathers leave a faith or arrive to a faith, the rest of their family is statistically much more likely to follow than if a wife/mother leaves or arrives.
Love how Dave gives answers that are really thoughtful, articulate and clearly his words and Paul is just quickly regurgitating Bible verses and buzz phrases in a panic. I don’t think he expected pushback like that.
I am the least bit surprised it's Bethany coming out with this. I always got the impression that Bethany was always trying to catch up while Kristen didn't feel the need to put on much of a performance
I really appreciate your take on allowing people to grow. I myself was raised Catholic and was taught a lot of really harmful things growing up. It's so very easy to internalise it at that stage, when everyone around you tells you that's the correct way to live (and also you're threatened with eternal damnation almost every week haha 😅). It takes work to confront and unlearn all of that, and it doesn't all happen at once. At least it didn't for me (Though one might argue it's still happening. Some things like to linger.)
The scream I scrumpt at this title
“Scrumpt”? Why do I love that word so much?!
@@GothBarbie3000 i know right?? ever since i saw someone using it i just have to lol
Lmao scrumpt has been added to my vocabulary
girl defined is leaving the chuch 🥰🥰
I'm gay and I no longer have issue with them. I do not even need official apology bc visible change is more important to me. I saw the video of announcement that her husband is leaving church. I saw that she was more happy than in any other video and that makes me happy too
Every time I see your channel name I think "But aren't kiwis fruity by nature" and have a little chuckle
You're thinking of kiwifruit. A kiwi is a flightless bird indigenous to New Zealand, so we call ourselves kiwi.
@@rosieglowsSo the fruit is actually called "kiwifruit" and not "kiwi"? Idk why but I always thought the fruit was just called a "kiwi" and that they were related to New Zealand in some way which is why people from New Zealand are also kiwis lol
It's referred to as kiwifruit in Australia and New Zealand, as Kiwi refers to either the bird or people from New Zealand.
But the fruit is commonly shortened to just "kiwi" in other countries.
I'm British and we call the fruit both kiwi and kiwifruit. I think in the US and Canada it's commonly just called kiwi as well.
The nickname for New Zealanders comes from the bird.
The original comment was just a joke anyway. They weren't confused, they knew that the channel name is referring to being from New Zealand, but was making a joke about kiwis being fruity because of the fruit. Just a play on words.
@@robfortune6
@@robfortune6NZ people just really relate to round, flightless birds with long, skinny beaks, I guess.
@@rosieglows thank you, Capitan Obvious
me when I leave the chuch
choo choo chuch
It's truly a leaving the church moment lol.@@miabennett04
@@antoniowaller7206
The face when leaving the church:
Congratulations! Welcome to life without a bunch of extra rules.
@@elin_ Life is so much simpler and fun now
While they don’t get a pass on the past, change is what we all want… so it’s always nice to welcome people as they deconstruct.
I'm glad to see Bethany and Dav growing as people, I hope they continue to improve and expand their views. They've still done a ton of harm, that's undeniable.
Who knows, maybe their turnaround on (some of) the queer community will inspire some of their younger viewers. I would love to see a behind the scenes of how the rest of the family are handling things, though.
i like this turn happening, and i also experienced this radical change in my own life. i wasnt originally hired by one manager where i work bc my FB had "protect trans kids" as my banner and he didnt want that kind of person working with him. i was obviously hired in another department and secretly told about this bts moment but then told "ya when u helped for a week in his dept, idk what went down but he said if u ever wanted to change he wants u LOL" and i was like "lol damn ok, thats cool i made him less prejudice!" hard cut a year later of working at this company and was given more bts of this person (who is ordained and wants to one day be a church official) asked my boss what my pronouns were bc he was making such drastic accepting changes to his core beliefs and i still think of this and feel so proud of him and am really happy to continue to work with him. he is absolutely someone i would have seen that deep into the religion as girl defined was, and to see so many radically christian viewing people just suddenly stop and go "wait...no bc the people i am interacting with so frequently, they are people and i now see that the bible is not so black and white and we should be more accepting" its so...i dont want to say 'cute' bc that sounds condescending, but i find it very precious and beautiful to watch take place.
these are times when i think we as people might just be ok, after all
That's so cool!!!💙
As someone who deconstructed my evangelical upbringing and ended up as a queer progressive Christian, I wish them the best of luck on their journey - wherever it may lead them. Even though I'm somehow not an atheist after all the crap I endured, I can sadly still see why these toxic church environments drive people to lose faith. In any case, I hope they do the right thing and work to publicly denounce the dangerous rhetoric they've promoted in the past.
What does the phrase “go and sin no more” mean to you?
@@MikeHawk-c5t At first I thought maybe you were asking a good faith question. But then I saw that you were harassing other people in the comments, so I'm not going to give you the satisfaction.
What does the phrase "love your neighbor as yourself" mean to you? What does "judge not lest ye be judged" mean to you?" What does "remove the plank from your own eye" mean to you?
@@chelledoggo we get it, you can’t handle being called out on your sin 😂😂😂😂
@@chelledoggo go and sin no more kid :) then you can talk about Christian’s
@@chelledoggo you could not in good faith actually rationalize “go and sin no more” 😂 it completely negates your entire point
If half of girl defined can have such a change of heart, that gives me hope for humanity. EDIT: AS OF NOVEMBER 7th 2024 THAT HOPE HAS BEEN LOST
I stepped away from the fundie update scene a while back because it just got so frustrating. Seeing this video in my feed is blowing my mind!!! I remember hearing about a video where they discussed questioning their faith but I assumed it was just the usual “this only made it stronger!” experience. I have so much to catch up on!
The idea of "lol i can't be a feminist i love jesus" is so wild and so telling of their beliefs about feminism and either internalized misogyny or completely misinterpreting how the bible feels about women
Come on. The Bible isn’t a feminist book, and there are plenty of verses in there that support my point. Religions are inherently misogynistic.
Men are the head of the house.
You’ll try to twist this into something feminist but the truth is, there are 2 adults in the home, and only one is making decisions while the other is following like a child. The women, of course. That isn’t feminist. And I’m not even digging deeper.
Or what they were told to believe by a patriarchal religion so that women can stay oppressed
Feminists are miserable exhibit A
@@ontxtteredwxngs you aren’t oppressed
@@ontxtteredwxngs you realize the only reason you aren’t chained to a kitchen stove is because men are nice right?
I'm not surprised at all... As a hardcore Christian who doesn't define myself as what a typical Christian would be, I see so many of these ppl fall of because they spend so much of their life following other people's rules that they don't actually follow the religion on their own they follow people
That video of Dave and Bethy was so sweet. I watched it when it was released and it was really good. The Zelf video was also great
unrelated but your hair looks so good!
Skittles
That's not an insult. Just an observation.
i’m obsessedd with her hair in this video
Girl Defined redemption arc was not on my 2024 bingo card.
But I’m not complaining. I kinda love this.
Whatever I’ve known about GirlDefined has been against my will.
I'm glad to see this personal growth in her, it's about freaking time.
As someone who has always seen my own upbringing mirrored in girl defineds views, I am genieunely so happy for them.
the plot has TWISTED omg
I'm shocked. SHOCKED!
...well, not that shocked.
I hope they thrive outside of the church.
Of course it's Bethany related. Everything Girl Defined has been Bethany related lately
As someone who had my own deconstruction journey, I think it’s a lot like getting sober. It doesn’t happen overnight and it’s not as simple as the “all or nothing/sober or using” mentality that people like to apply. It’s little steps. It’s realizing that your actions hurt people and trying your best to do less harm going forward. You try and do a little less harm everyday, and it gets to feel more natural as time goes on. I’m glad that they’re starting to take those steps.
I also completely agree. There is no obligation to forgive someone who has deconstructed. They are still responsible for their past actions and it’s okay to hold them responsible.
I do feel that the comments on the harm caused by girl defined is definitely a valid conversation, however as a person who also came from a very conservative upbringing and toxic Christian views, the deconstruction takes time. You usually start inward and work out, it seems like she is in the redefining stage, what do I still believe and what can I let go. Once she goes through that process she will better be able to understand the harm caused and actually (hopefully) be able to meaningfully address it. This is a long road for them, but I’m glad to see even those who seem so entrenched in the more toxic aspects can learn and grow and I hope she is able to continue down this path and end up in a healthier place.
this is so great to see as someone who used to have a similar mindset and has now changed. I do hope that they will see the damage they've done though.
"If you don't know who Girl Defined are..." RUN. Keep it that way!
it doesn't surprise me that dav deconstructed, wasn't he forced into conversion therapy? that man was traumatized by the institution who claimed to love him.
edit: he didn't go to conversion therapy. a commenter corrected me and i googled to make sure it was true before editing.
No the conversion therapy thing was a rumour and not true
@@llynxfyremusic thanks! i'll edit the comment to not spread desinformation
Who wants to bet girly heard one Chappell Roan song and was transcended
we all know good luck babe did it
😒
Lmao thissssss
Bethany was the only one who saved her first kiss so it makes sense that she’s starting to question everything. Rachel Oates has really good in depth commentary about them. I believe she has a video about this topic also.
Nope. They Both Did.
I started as a christian and was homophobic and i even voted for trump. I have since come out of the closet, I have since become a pretty firm socialist a punk and I am polyamorous with my chosen queer family. It really just took getting out of the influence of the church for me be able to self reflect and grow as a person.
It’s sad to see someone devolve so fast, yikes.
Being a socialist only shows that you quite literally don’t know anything 😂
@@MikeHawk-c5ton the contrary being Republican is akin to being stupid. I mean look at all the "parents" unschooling their kids because they think they're being brainwashed (the school isn't but the parents sure are brainwashing their own kids, case in point, you and your mother.) just because YOU lack a brain and empathy doesn't mean that others don't lack a brain and empathy.
@@MikeHawk-c5t87 comments in 5 hours dude you’re genuinely unhinged
@@jiyu9277 it’s always funny when yall get graped
lol this kinda reminds me of how in hs i was one of those christians who said "it's a choice to be gay" because i WAS gay and i was actively choosing to deny that side of me for so long.
I loved that video a lot. Especially talking about the part of accepting growth but also reminding people that horrible actions from the past are not a "must" to forgive.
Some things are unforgivable so there is no need to forgive BUT realizing that people can change
I have been following this really closely… there is a lottttt behind the scenes.
When they went to visit Zelph on the Shelf, they really didn’t get into it enough…. Lots of questions left unanswered. But it was enough for the backlash to cause them to basically go into hiding. Dav deleted his social medias (which he was sharing a lot of literature he was reading about faith and atheism and all sorts of things), and Bethany pretty much only does Girl Defined content because that’s how she makes her money (IMO).
But I think they stopped speaking to Zelph for the time being as well (Zelph showed a quick text exchange of Dav telling them they’re going to stop chatting for now)….
I get the feeling they’re doing a LOT of growing… it seems like they’re falling deeper in love…. But their family/friend groups are likely really stressing them out now. It would be really hard to deconstruct in the middle of all of that, but I hope it’s going well. 💛
Seeing Dav and Bethany’s progress honestly gives me so much hope in this dark time. I remember seeing signs that Dav was starting to deconstruct however, I fully expected that if he proceeded down that path, it would lead Bethany to divorce him rather than examining her own beliefs. What a wonderful surprise to see that instead, Dav deconstructing was the catalyst Bethany needed to step back and assess her own beliefs. Although they’re not fully there and don’t seem to acknowledge the part they’ve played in harming others in the past, I have to acknowledge how difficult it can be to dissect your beliefs in an impartial, open-minded way when you’ve been taught that there is only one correct line of thinking your entire life.
Now I’m really curious how Dav and Bethany’s journey has impacted Kristen. I’d also really love to ask Dav, “what was the spark that ignited your initial desire to reevaluate your values and beliefs in the first place?” Especially considering how much propaganda is floating around currently, I’m very curious how someone like Dav, who has been surrounded by exclusively like-minded people his entire life is able to escape the pipeline long enough to question his beliefs in the first place.
You are fully intrenched in the propaganda
@@MikeHawk-c5t coming from someone like you, I’ll take that as a compliment. Have a lovely day :)
Breaking news: Christian discovers the teachings of Jesus.
Go and sin no more? You and this channel wouldn’t know the first thing about that
You are a product of your environment until YOU decide to step out
I heard it my whole life and never understood until I had to step outside of my environment
As someone who grew up in the evangelical church and was a virgin when I got married at 20 and eventually deconstructed throughout my 20s. It took me a whole decade to “deprogram” some deeply rooted beliefs and I’m still working on some of them as I approach my 40s. Some of us grow up in purity culture and really feel like we are doing something good and loving and not wrong by going all in on it. I think we can underestimate what growing up being programmed into these briefs can do to people. I too am very embarrassed by some of the things I did and believed when still in it.
I don't appreciate those who have a change of heart and become enlightened AFTER taking the light out of others for years. They could very well have a long meditation in private intead of teaching girls all over the world to damage themselves. People's lives are not someone training spots!
this! I’m happy that they’ve been able to change, but the damage they’ve done is MASSIVE, and it shouldn’t be overlooked, this is vital.
@@kattheslytherin652sadly it is being largely overlooked in favor of "not pushing too hard" on their fragile beliefs.
@@meiimacca4054 it’s frustrating to see. her redemption has a hefty price, and it’s largely paid for by the people she harmed. which just isn’t fair or right.
I’ve grown up in a fundamental church environment as well, but no amount of praise or fame would convince me to willingly spread something I don’t fully believe in, knowing it might be harmful to people.
@@kattheslytherin652 zero damage has been done 😂
@@meiimacca4054 you’re the one with fragile beliefs
i don't a lot of people have the full lore on girl defined and paul and morgan, but for those of us who do this is like life-changing news
I love how much you shine like a rainbow! 🌈
honestly so proud of her. never thought i’d see the day but i’m so glad to see it
👏 👏 👏 thank you for acknowledging all the positives in this situation. I saw a really disappointing take the other day because it was only the negative and as someone who grew up in this community that made me so sad. I can’t help but think the example to the young Christian’s who follow her out there seeing someone grow and change could be very powerful and help them get out of that box. I hope that she continues on the journey toward enlightenment.
Your commentary is so fair and generous. You are so respectful, and I think that's rare to find in commentary.
Also (from someone who grew up Christian) sometimes when you have someone in your life who isn’t part of the echo chamber you can feel safe enough to explore different possibilities outside the box you’ve been in your whole life.
This is so beautiful. Im so hopeful for the future of this couple and maybe the world of chistianity like i wish i had that from my parents
I just want to say to everyone watching from the stands: Please be patient. Deconstruction is hard and does not come easy to most people.
33:35 idk why but hearing bethany essentially just say the words “as a queer person what do you want from [me],” is so powerful to me
I really hope that her changing opinions can help others in her previous community perhaps go down a similar path. If she's able to do it and get positive responses then hopefully it'll make others who might feel similarly less afraid.
I just about cried. This is really amazing. I love being able to see people grow and change and evolve.
Bethany has had the most amazingly unexpected character growth, it is wild
this is good, hopefully she can be less shackled down now and let herself be happy in love. christianity should be about love and mutual respect and that is all!
however she needs to try and undo the damage she has inflicted on others, specifically young impressionable christian girls
Amen! It’s really sad to see how people twist things in order to discriminate and use a powerful figure in many people’s lives to do it.
Christianity is about love and respect. Saying nothing while you repeatedly sin is not love or respect
@@crazypyp5871nothing has been twisted 😂
As an ex-christian queer person. Speaking from experience, changing extreme fundamentalist views do not happen over night.
23:36 the scared teenager in me is crying, I never thought I'd see the day
I literally started sobbing hearing her talk, seeing this growth is so encouraging and I know it can have such a positive impact on their viewers