John Deere R Cold Start - How Long to Warm Up the Pony Motor?
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- Опубликовано: 19 сен 2024
- How long do you need to run the pony motor before you try starting the diesel engine? Does warming up the pony motor make starting the diesel engine any easier? We did a small experiment with our 1951 John Deere R.
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I'm glad you did this video. I always let the pony warm up like a lawnmower before using it 5 minutes or so before putting a load on it. My Grandpa says you ought to give the pony the same love as any engine. I appreciate any advice in this matter.
Grandpa was right.
I think I will warm up for a minute but rather than trying to let the pony motor hear the big engine, I'll use the engine compression to build heat in the combustion chamber.
@@jonelsonster Looks like you could rig up a throttle control but maybe not. Obviously they last in spite of themselves. I never let the pony really heat the diesel but the pony exhaust heated the diesel intake air somewhat and a dab of warm/hot air goes a long way. Sure works wonders on a 2-cycle.
I agree with Dad. Ever start a engine without oil gauge hooked up?? Hot r cold that oil pump moves some oil . Give it a minute, ok .otherwise wasting my time Imo
Never cranked a tractor but cranked cranes, D4's, 6's and D8's with Cat engines with ponys. I always cranked the motor on the 8 and let the pony IDLE, kicked the compression off with NO FUEL on the diesel and let the pony continue to IDLE and turn the diesel over slowly. I had a thermos of coffee and drank a cup while things were limbering up. After I got the coffee down I opened up the pony to governed r.p.m. and put the fuel to the diesel. It would put out the white fuel smoke till is started lighting off as one or two cylinders at a time. When it fired and I throttled it back to warm up, I idled the pony for a minute and then shut it down. The same thing happend day after day, summer and winter. Never had any trouble BUT I don't think the Cat pony has aluminum pistons like your tractor and was made to run for extended periods of time. I never run anything wide open right out of the box and I've run equipment and trucks all my life, 50+ years. Never had any trouble. Blessings to yall!
Those big cats had pretty nice pony motors... Throttle control (which the R doesn't really have) and didn't they also have a two speed transmission for cranking the big diesel engine too?
@@jonelsonster They did but I never used the lo side. Never needed it with the compression off and let it limber up that way.
Cat D4 pony pistons are aluminum. I don't know about the bigger ones.
@@brianrvd I guess they all are but the Cat jobs seem to be set up heavier duty then the deere ones to me. And with a governor and throttle setup it sure seems so. And I've see some of the old opposed piston ones like on 4's and 6's have crank runout from 1/8th to 1/4 of an inch and never sputter. Thats tough in my book.
I have always heard that after you let the engine run for awhile, you release the compression, allow the main motor to come up to speed to build oil pressure, and then give it the compression and then fuel and it will run, after that shut down the pony and go to work.
Yup. That's the procedure. Here is a video I did showing the driver's seat view... ruclips.net/video/yRb-WoeTBmY/видео.html
You need to let it turn over the diesel engine under compression with no fuel for 5 minutes. That will make way more heat. It puts the pony under load (which makes more heat) and the compression in the cylinders of the diesel will make heat as well.
Yes. I agree cranking the engine over with compression and no fuel is a good way to get more heat into the engine and help starting.
Never ran an R But started a 730D hundreds of times with a pony. That one had two speed settings for the pony, 'start' and 'run'. (Start meaning start the diesel) In the winter (In MI) we would 'run' the pony for 15 minutes or so and the diesel would light right off. Anything 50 degrees and up and the diesel would start instantly as soon as the fuel was opened.
We have a 70D and two 830s and those diesel engines fire much easier that either of our R's. I believe there were advancements in injector and combustion chamber design that helped them start easier.
@@jonelsonster
Exactly right. Well said.
Living on the border of ND and MN I’ve got a good idea what a cold winter is like 😂….I was always told that in cold starting weather guys would start the pony and go inside for coffee or do other chores until the pony ran out of gas. That diesel engine has a lot of mass that needs to be warmed up by that little engine. One thing the old timers didn’t bother to mention was whether the pony was left cranking the big engine under no compression during that time or not. I’m going to assume that they did as that would aid in drawing warm air in through the intake as well as the coolant being warmed by the pony. Your dad obviously was not impressed but I’d rather have the pony wear out and rebuild that than chance a catastrophic failure in the big engine because I didn’t warm it up enough, but to each their own.
I think, after this experiment, you'd want to have the pony cranking the big engine.
According to the Operator’s Manual it say to allow the starting engine to run a short time before engaging it with the Diesel engine. The length of time will vary with temperature conditions/weather conditions being normally 1 to 3 minutes
It also says for extremely cold temperatures to lock the decompression lever with lever lock and to motor diesel engine over on decompression and no fuel/throttle to warm diesel engine cylinder before attempting to start diesel engine
Thanks for adding this comment! I went back and looked at the operator's manual and see exactly what you're talking about. And, after running this experiment, I agree. It would have been better to let the pony run for a minute or two and then spend the rest of the time having the pony motor the big diesel engine over under compression to build heat that way.
I've commented on this before.....been running R's & 820's since the late 50's. I have never run the pony for more than 5 min. It's is more important to turn the diesel over until it has oil pressure. Also, IMO the R pony is much more reliable than the V4's. Coils on the V4 are a nightmare. Thanks for posting, enjoyed the video.
I agree. The pony motor on this was warm after about 2 or 3 minutes of running. At that point it's ready to go to work cranking over the big engine. And let the compression warm the combustion chamber. Then add the fuel. I think this method will be the least wear and tear on the engine.
No experience of John Deere diesels and pony motors but we always ran the pony till it was warm then engage the Diesel with the decompressor open but throttle closed for a couple of minutes then open the diesel throttle at same time as releasing compression lever and started right up 👍
Was your experience on old caterpillars and graders?
@@jonelsonster yes it was 👍
Here’s what I think. I owned a 730 diesel and when it is very cold, this is the easiest way to start them. Never never never give them either. Take you a little gasoline dip shop rag in the gas. It does not have to be very wet hang it over the air cleaner tube on top, go back there start up your pony motor hit the decompression lever start cranking when you let off the decompression lever shove the throttle halfway forward it lights right off saves the life of your pony motor and your diesel engine and the gasoline fumes do not slam cold, pistons like ether does and it will suck the gas fumes right off that rag bingo you are running smooth. By the way, nice tractor.
I haven't heard that method before. But it sounds like you've had success! Thanks for commenting.
We have a 70D but it hasn't run in years. I also have a 730D and when I use to use it I had a factory block heater that screwed into the head. Plug it in for an hour and she'd pop off. The 730 is electric start.
Electric start is very nice! We have a 70D and an 830 that are both electric start and they start so nice and easy.
Excellent video Joelnestar :) I not sure on Pony Motors of hand but heard 10 mins be enough or when feel warm and time star bigger engine that I heard by my elders in past years too ! But think you and dad doing correctly too !
Thanks!
FYI when you zoomed in on the tire I was going to say something about the size and then you brought it up anyway. My 80 was set up the same way, with 18.4x26 tires on the rear and 15 inch on the front. I've called it the lowrider option LOL. I put 23.1x26 on the rear again and I learned a lesson...the rear rims would no longer fit when in the narrow position. The bare rims cleared the fender by about an inch. The 18.4 tires had straight sidewalls and they fit narrow. The bigger (factory size) tire bulges enough not to fit, so the rims were flipped out wide LOL
Ha Ha! yes, low rider! I'm glad you have experience going from the 18.4x26 tires to the 23.1x26 tires. I don't think we will be switching these tires anytime soon because they are still in good shape. But the tires on my 830i are pretty sketchy. So, once I can save up some money, I think that is one of the first things I'll be replacing. So I'll have to reach out to you for advise. Thanks again for all of your help!
@@jonelsonster The only advice on the tires is to leave em as long as possible haha, too expensive! I have noticed that the 23.1x26 size was used on LOTS of OLD combines, and you might be able to get used or "take off tires" for a better price. Its how I got rice tires for mine wayy back when
I am honestly very surprised it still started so hard, and with all that unburnt fuel. Pretty much just as hard as the previous video's clip. My experience with the numbered series is totally different, basically easy starting at all temps, even 0F, when I let the pony run 10 or more minutes, and with little to no unburnt fuel clouds. The only time I had a rough cloudy start was when the pony was started and engaged immediately on a very cold (20 degree?) day. I've heard the line about "wearing out the pony" before. I've also heard that most engine wear occurs during start up and cold load operation....and that's why I personally believe in letting it warm up. I have no advice on the harder starting, I know the R is a different animal than my 70/80, but I don't think even the R was that cold blooded when in good condition. Is it enough to worry about, no. Enjoy your tractor, take my ramblings with a big grain of salt
Pony motor damage does not happen with starting! They all burn oil. Why You ask? Well they sit on the big engine vibrating all day and 1/2 the night sometimes with no oil to the rings. They vibrate groves in the cylender walls. They won't warm up if not working. Decompress the big one. Lock it in let her lug on the big engine and give it a bit of throttle every now and then lube the piston . Then when the oil gets losened up let her have compression. Now your building heat in the cylenders. Sooner or later it will start. Even a touch of either. 20 degree start. Thats a nice spring morning in Canada. On the hard starting of the R. low compression remember the R was John Deere's first try at a desil. An 80 had more compression and was good starter but would not smoke like an R.
I was surprised too. Even though it didn't start as easily as I was expecting, I think i have learned a few things specific to the R:
- I think spending time cranking the engine with compression and no fuel would help better at heating the engine than just letting it idle. Some people have pointed out that not only are you building more heat in the combustion chamber (which I was already aware of) but also, since the engine is under load, it will be building more heat too. And i had not really thought about that aspect.
-based off what some people have said here and on the FB post (thanks for suggesting that, btw) these Rs have the combustion chamber designed piston which seems to make harder to start in cool/cold and also makes them smoke like a train on start up.
I appreciate your help!
@@jonelsonster you could also do what I just did tonight. Got the pony cranking, with no compression, and used it to move the tractor out of the shed. I do it now and then.
Squatch253 Channel is a good one for those interested in the old Cat dozers. He basically rebuilds them from the ground up. Very meticulous mechanic. Overhauled a Farmall tractor or two with his Dad. As far as the dozers go, it's all him though.
I've seen a couple of his videos. Like you said, pretty detailed.
I have a 830. Start your pony up and let it run on low idle until the pony warms up for maybe 10 mins then i speed it up and let it run for another 5 mins then depending on outside temp (maybe -10'C) I would start cranking the main diesel (decompressed-no fuel) as this will warm the whole engine....watch the oil pressure gauge. When warmed up compress the main engine and ad fuel.....no problem starting.
While they're both diesels, the R and the 830 are quite different. The R does not have a slow idle... Just one throttle speed. And the injector and combustion chamber on an R is not as good as an 830. This is why they start harder. Especially in the cold.
Always have the throttle wide open. The length of time the pony motor should run depends on the the temperature outside. You can always inject a little ether.
You make two very good points...
First, having the throttle open wide enough to spray enough diesel into the engine to ignite is something I've noticed helps a ton.
Second, a tiny shot of ether goes a long way. I'm sure the engine would have popped right away if we had given it a tiny shot of ether and it would have saved wear and tear on both engines!
Magical sound.
gotta love these old relics!
My grandpa who worked at JD when the R was new they told him your supposed to use the whole tank of gas to start the diesel engine in colder climate
NO disrespect, but JD never said use the whole tank of gas to start the diesel.
@donnydenfeld2394 I can see this being necessary especially if you're in the tundra of Minnesota or N Dakota in the dead of winter. Let that engine crank the diesel over a good long while...long enough to run the tank out fuel! Ha Ha!
I’m thinking the port you said was to dump warm water down into the main , my guess is the warm water would come out the top somewhere , and the bottom is cold water returning from main block.
I just meant that is the coolant passage where coolant in the pony motor "dumps" into the coolant passage of the big diesel engine.
I am not familiar with the R but on the newer ones with the v4 starting engines they have a thermostat it makes a big difference on them for warming up the diesel engine I started my 720 John Deere diesel years ago way below zero with the pony motor I would be on the second tank of gas and then start cranking the diesel over until it had oil pressure and it would fire up and run
Another benefit of the number series is that Deere improved the design of the combustion chamber which, as I've spoken with people who are smarter than I, made a big difference in starting. Especially in cool/cold weather. They would start quicker and they wouldn't smoke for nearly as long.
@jonelsonster that is true and I feel the decompression setup is better on the newer ones so it let's the diesel engine turn over easier and that makes them start way better.
I have a70 diesel with24 volt starter ,20 figures and in 3 to 4 minutes it is running.always been that way
We have a 70D that was converted to electric start too (thanks to the previous owner) and it starts beautifully!
We ran two tanks of gas in our pony motor in three feet of snow where the tractor had been parked all winter..When I pulled the radiator cap off I could see steam.. It fired right up like I just shut it off..
I should have checked the fuel level in the pony motor fuel cup before and after this to see how much fuel we burned in that 10 minute warm up.
Is there a compression release on the diesel engine? If so let the pony crank the diesel engine with the compression off. It loads the pony motor and heats the diesel motor cylinders
Yes, there is a compression release. I used that at the beginning to crank the diesel engine over until oil pressure registered on the gauge of the diesel engine. Then I applied compression and let it crank for another few revolutions. And then applied fuel.
Hello From Kentucky, Although I am not directly familiar with the pony motors per se, I am wondering if you put a magnetic block heater on the engine block - Then how long would it take the pony motor to start up the diesel engine as opposed to the pony engine starting up the diesel engine cold as you were doing before. Either way, It takes a lot of energy to start up a cold diesel engine whether it’s a pony engine or a electric starter as we all know.
Yes, a block heater would be a good way to help. But that was the pitch behind the pony motor...you could start the diesel engine in the cold without an external source. The flaw in our experiment here was that i just let the pony motor idle. What I should have done is let the pony motor run for a minute or two, and then let it motor the diesel engine over with compression and no fuel for a few minutes. This is what my dad was referring to at the end of the video. And other people have confirmed that is a better way to build heat in the engine and help it start easier. But I'm still glad I did this experiment. Thanks for watching!
Yeah, I am also aware of that fact regarding the Pony Motor used both by Caterpillar and John Deere. If nothing else, It did make for an interesting discussion and video content.
Dad looks worried! If it was me, i think i would install a 120V pencil heater in the head coolant drain. I imagine those are still available with the proper size piping? I don't know how large of a heater is available that you could install in the lower rad hose. I have a 2 Inch 600 Watt one but the lower rad hose on your R looks like it could be 3 Inch. I suppose you may not want to bother, if you don't use the tractor much in cold weather. That being said, growing up on a farm i was exposed to 2 Cyl. JD's, NOT THE DIESELS unfortunately. Glad i came across your Channel, just lately. Does the lever to engage the pony motor have to be held all the time or is it possible to lock it in engaged so that you could crank the diesel engine for an extended period of time on either low compression (if that handle can be locked too?) or full compression. Course Dad would probably not like that either which is why i think a 120V heater is a better choice.
That is the idea behind the pony motor...you don't need a block heater because you can build heat with the pony. But, yes, a block heater would be good in this situation. Or just park it in the heated shop!
@@jonelsonster Yeah i realize that's the idea behind the pony motor but in the interests of not having to run it for an extended period of time on a cold day---at least if you are at the yard site. I wonder partly too if JD thought that was a better alternative to an electric starter. Not sure about the technology of starters back in that era, especially to start a diesel engine. Caterpillar went that route too as you know and International diesels started on gas before switching the engine over to run on diesel. As a kid, our municipality was doing a bit of road construction (cat and scraper) near our farmhouse. I think it was an International TD24 and i loved watching the guy start that thing up in the morning. Love that you are putting the effort into saving some of these old JD tractors.
Maybe put 120v 700w heater in coolant drain plug, just an idea.
Yes, a heater would help. But that was the idea behind the pony motor...you wouldn't need a block heater. Obviously, block heaters and improvements in starters won that debate...because no one uses pony motors today. Ha Ha!
Doesn’t matter how you do it, the comment section will still tell you how you did it wrong. I’m curious by the way the big engine starts in your videos if you have a compression/injector issue?
The John Deere Rs were a little harder starting, due to the design of the top of piston. They had what they called a combustion chamber in the top.
I agree nobody does anything right. Lol
I don't believe there is an issue with compression or injectors because this tractor pulls very well and we've had it on the dyno and makes good power. And when it's 60 or warmer outside it actually starts really easily. But sub 40s is hard to start. Ether would probably help it fire a lot easier in the cool/could weather.
What the fuel for the main engine be jelly up
I've never experienced diesel gelling. But i think you need to be really really cold. Especially with good quality diesel fuel of today, or so i would assume.
Better than a chain
Plan B! Ha Ha Ha!
The John Deere R was harder starting due to the design of the top of piston. They had what they called a combustion chamber in the top of piston.
Not true, all my R's start immediately.......has nothing to do with the top of the piston.
@@lttl858 well you must have some very special R’s there
@@SPR-777 Nothing special, I have a '51 & '53......'53 for over 40 years. They can set for 6 months and the diesel doesn't have to turn over twice before it fires off.
@@lttl858
Huh. Really??
Maybe the engines have been modified internally? Might someone have put pistons in from a 720 diesel or a 820?? And that’s why they fire right up.
@@SPR-777 Don't pay attention to the drug store 2 cyl. experts. Next thing they will tell you is the R has a weak PTO. We farmed Rice with nothing but R's from the 50's into the 70's, so it's not like the 2 I have are the only ones I've been around. I also have an elec. start 830 Rice Special & the R is much easier to start. Don't even go near the 830 w/o HOT batteries!
running the pony motor for a couple of minutes then turn the diesel under compression to warm the cylinders should be better.
Yes, if i did this experiment again that is exactly what I'd do. Let the pony run for a minute or two, and then engage it with the big engine and let it motor the diesel engine over under compression with no fuel for a couple more minutes. That would build heat better.
The pony motor needs some fine tuning.
This is actually our good running pony! 😅
Losen to your dad
He is right on
He usually is.
Dad was not impressed.
Ha Ha! No, he was not.