Get a TO on the Podcast! Who are these TO‘s and why is it so difficult to find a mutual decision and in general to get a hold of them? It seems like they are unattainable and you can‘t talk to them about this stuff
I get that Void fits in as a routine member, and that you all know him as a friend, but you really didn't treat him as well as other guests. I was extremely interested in hearing you ask about his views on smash like you do with most of the recent people you've brought on, such as Gluto, mkleo, or even marss. Void has so much insight I wanted to hear that just got shut out. He barely got to talk about anything in the first half, especially about himself and his unique experiences. I would have loved if you asked him questions about his recent life, just like you've done for other guests That said, I'm a long time fan of the pod and a very committed follower of all of you, so I hope this is received in the constructive lens I intend 🍌🍌🍌
Some honestly, wanted to hear of his experiences in Ludwig's/RUclips's tournament. And his thoughts about smash and its influences on being a gamer in other gaming platforms
The timer conversation is needed. Hopefully, the next smash game will have established rulesets (and an overseeing council) to make sure these guys have consistency in their jobs.
This makes sense regarding time-outs. Ultimately you have to have a condition to shorten matches for the sake of competitive viewership, forcing interactions, and time constraints for the venue. Like it or not the timer is a balanced mechanic.
Honestly, I’d take a closer look at the unified european ruleset. It makes a lot of sense. The reason it has yoshi’s is because it needs 9 stages to function, and could theoretically be swapped for northern cave. Other issues are caused by the stages themselves, which is an ultimate problem rather than a ruleset problem. Some US regions already follow it, such as mine, although people from out of region hate traveling to us because they don’t want to learn a new ruleset. Overall, it’s probably the most popular ruleset globally, we just need to see places like the US and japan adopt it.
1:02:12 the midwest is the same, pretty much any midwestern tournament runs the midwest unified ruleset, character first, 5 starters 3 counterpicks, ps2, bf, sbf, t&c and sv starters, fd, kalos and hb counters
I’m in one of the first regions that implemented character first, did it pretty much as soon as we realized that anyone could counterpick FD, pick Kazuya and have a massive advantage. It’s worked out very well for us. Midwest Unified Ruleset ruleset I’ve seen used so far. Not perfect but it’s good for what people will actually play on
People just dont want players like Sonix to win which is why they are so against shortening the time even though shortening the time is the obvious solution to boring matches.
Not true. People are hesitant to do that because if you shorten the timer than timeouts are an even better and more practical strategy if you have to camp for less time to do it
In my opinion, aiming at a timeout is a negative tactic, it's anti-smash just like say anti-football in football. I mean, obviously, it is subjective but I think a lot of people would agree with me : the point of the game is the interactions between the characters ; the hits, the combos, the edgeguards, the kills. Camping in order to get a timeout is just avoiding all that. That's on top of being generally bad for viewers (as a viewer I fully disagree with the idea that timeouts are hype - in the vast majority of cases you know who's gonna take it 2 minutes before the game ends). Time outs aren't necessarily bad because it will be reached at some point even in a game between two slower paced players who are playing the game normally ; it means they both failed to get through their opponent's defence in the given time, it's perfectly fairplay. And the given time is necessary to run a tourney on time. Changing the timer won't change anything, fully agree with that. But, couldn't we have a rule which prevents timeouts from being made a consistent tactic? Imagine the following : at the beginning of every set, each player has a counter at 0. When a player wins a timeout game, their counter goes up. When a game goes to time out, you first look at the player counter ; if they're equal, you proceed as usual ; if they're not, you give the game to whoever has the lower counter. So, it prevents time outs from being a consistent tactic throughout a set. If you took a game through time out, you have to approach next games or give a game back ; show that you're good enough at smash to actually approach your opponent, and not just camp all game as soon as you've taken a lead.
doesn't this ruleset just make timing out much easier in the second game for the loser. You can just not approach ever even with losing so that makes the person who lost the second match to camp more as the person who timed out round 1 has to approach always.
Ehh, idk. My thing is that if you're good at the game, you'd be able to deal with it and win. And then what happens when someone wins through timeout and they're up a stock? The game just goes to the opponent when they were playing campy and the opponent wasn't able to bring it back? That just doesn't seem fair.
did u miss the part where shortening the timer forces interactions. timeouts suck because of the camping, if its a 5 minute timer timeouts would be hype
@@2FadeMusic Hard disagree with that. From a viewer's perspective, the hypest part of smash are the kills - the edgeguards, the reads, the kill combos, even the kill confirms - and whatever happens in timeouts there's less kills, by definition. That, plus the hype timeouts happen only when both characters are close in percents and you're not sure who is gonna win - and even then, they're clearly not as hype as last-hit situations in non-timeouts, when you're not sure if a move is gonna kill or not, and there's moves barely not killing like 4 times in a row before the game is over. In fact, even if one player has a big stock and percent lead, with enough time, the other could still come back with some early spikes and 0-to-death. But if someone has a big lead AND the timer is running out, sometimes, there's just physically not enough time for the opponent to come back. Those timeouts are the ONLY games when you can say who's won with 100% certainty before the end of the game, making them the least hype games in general, not even taking in account camping. And they're more common than hype timeouts. Besides, I'm personally against lowering the timer to 5 minutes because I've seen very good low-paced matches which took like 5 minutes where there was no real camping, only both players taking it slow. I'm not against low-paced or longer matches at all. In a 5 minutes timer those matches would be impossible. I just don't think a low timer works for this smash game in many, many matchups.
I love how everyone on here knows exactly how underrated Marth is. Lucina kills later than Marth and I am sick of the whole "Marth's Tippers don't work" nonsense. If you can't land tippers, YOU are doing something wrong because they legit buffed the tipper size several times on most of his moves. Look at his frame data and the tippers cover almost half of his sword now on a majority of his kit. Lucina also has times when she struggles to kill, despite being more "consistent." There are times when I struggle to defeat players with Lucina because she legit can't kill with half her kit, whereas Marth kills these same players so freaking easily because almost every move kills at a good percent with tipper. He has way better combos and confirms, which negates the whole "he sucks at killing" argument. His edge-guards are so much more scary because of tipper, and even sours kill good offstage against the majority of the cast. Thank the Lord for Tweek Talks! Bless these men.
Tweek has always had the perfect lineup against Greninja with Wario and Diddy. Usually you value other characters based on who you main. So yeah it makes sense he thinks the frog is trash lmao
I love your argument about Top Players being ruthless and doing whatever it takes to win! I would love for you to talk about that thought process using Steve now. Too many people think that picking up Steve and winning majors is incredibly easy. If that were the case, every top player would pick up Steve to win but that’s not the case. Steve is incredibly broken and the best character in the game but the time investment is clearly too high for top players to commit to that strategy. It is apparent top players would rather use Mythra as their pocket pick.
It's not an issue of steve requiring too much investment. People are going to play the characters they want to play. Even at the very top level, players don't exclusively play the best character in the game. Most often, players will look a group of top tiers and play the one that they enjoy the most and/or fits their style the most. There's also an ego issue where a good portion of top players would refuse to play a blatantly broken character because they think they don't need it. Lastly, there's a very bad stigma around playing Steve. No matter how good you are and how well you place at events, if you play steve, your results are discredited and you get no respect.
It is very hard to believe this when players on this very podcast picked up Bayo to win in Smash 4. If you were around during Smash 4 then you know the stigma surrounding Bayo was also awful and only got worse after EVO. This still didn't stop Tweek, Pink Fresh, Leo, Abadongo, and other players from using Bayo when they needed that win. Sure you can say that EVERY top player that transitioned from Smash 4 to Ultimate decided to be noble but that doesn't explain the lack of other top players playing the character. The character is clearly the best character in the game now and I guarantee there are players that do not care about the stigma behind the character. Their ego is only satiated by winning. Even Dabuz admitted that Steve is difficult to play. This leads me to believe that the investment for Steve to be competitive at top-level play MUST take considerable effort and that top players overall deem playing him not worth it. Obviously, this may change in the future if Steve becomes mandatory to win P-tier tournaments but if we are speaking for the present, this is not the case. It is also very clear, that even with an immense amount of time playing Ultimate, your fundamentals don't transfer as well to Steve as they would other characters like Pyra/Mythra because we have seen Leo, Spargo, Cosmos, Shuton, and others use Mythra to get place, if not even win majors.@@DemonEyeHelix
@@joshuaseco7115 There's a big difference in that Bayo was definitively in her own tier in sm4sh. She was so much better than every other sm4sh character that if you wanted to have any real shot at winning towards the end of the game's lifespan, you had to pick up bayo. Steve is broken and the best character, but the gap isn't nearly as big as the gap between bayo and the rest of the game.
@@DemonEyeHelix According to Liquidpedia, Cosmos won the Big House 8 going all Corrin. Runner-Up was Esam who used all Pikachu and even beat Tweek's bayo the set before. MkLeo won Smash Con 2018 and he did not go bayonetta a single game in top 8. In fact, the only time he did go bayo as far as I can see was against Nairo's ZERO SUIT. Runner-Up of this tournament was Samsora who did not play a single game of bayo and in fact, beat Tweek's bayo forcing him to switch to Diddy Kong. Void won Smash n Splash 4 with only Sheik, Dabuz won Frostbite only using Rosa, MkLeo won Genesis 5 using Marth, Cloud, and Metaknight, and Eim won the FINAL Smash 4 Umebura with just Sheik. These are all tournaments that took place in 2018, the final year where people were competing in Smash 4 tournaments. Bayo was not a "MUST PICK" by any means. Top players picked the character up because it gave them the greatest chance of winning tournaments and you could pick up the character very quickly. We can't see Acola having only rank losses to Spargo in the last 6 months just playing Steve and not say the reward for mastering the character is massive. I am not saying that Steve is better than Bayo because Witch Time by itself was better than 90% of the roster in Smash 4 but I am saying that Steve has notable enough strengths that people are calling for bans of the character and he actually has been banned in some areas. There are 100% top players who would pick up the character if it meant more success. A lot of these top players don't care about ego because Smash Bros is literally their job. It is not a game they just play for fun. They need to win and have their name used more on the internet to make a living. Even on the recent Tweek Talks, Charles says the Game and Watch is one of the best secondary characters to have because he dominates matchups and is easy to use. He even made it a point to say if he competed more often he would use Fox and Game and Watch to cover his bad matchups. This is the same Charles that has been outspoken about how broken and stupid the character is to use.
The way other games solve camping with no timer is with smaller stages. At minimum, smaller stages support the idea of more interactions even with a timer. So instead of focusing on timer as the problem, it's too bad stages just can't be smaller.
But think about it - regardless of whether or not you like viewing time outs, would we really want Ultimate to become a time out a game? Is that what we want Ultimate to be well-known for? The characters that are good at timing out will literally just dominate the meta.
Programming wise, it is technically possible to code an interaction timer. Similar to chess, the one that camps starts having their "camping time" depleted, if it reaches 0 you automatically lose the game. So it would be a resource that both players have, but if abused, you lose.
Isn’t tweek talks n smash university involved with that throne tournament coming up? Bam there’s your chance to implement 5/6 minute timers just before smash 6
I know how separate the melee and ult communities are, but next time you want to have a dedicated rules discussion, you should get Toph on. You can talk about melee and ult specific rules and ideas, but also ones that overlap like the timer
I'd also be interested in hearing a conversation in how a timer change would affect the meta. Methinks it'd strengthen heavy punish characters and characters with good neutral/mobility more forced interactions will favor them and they get more out of them and can abuse their mobility even better. I wonder what other people think?
The idea that timeouts are bad stem from the fact that currently if there’s a timeout that means the set was really long and campy. But if the timer is shorter, that’s no longer the case.
Doesn’t matter what the actual points are, the way this podcast makes and defends their arguments are so illogical. It’s so much “you’re bad, I’m right” and “I’m an authority so I’m automatically right (even if there’s other top players that disagree with me)” or “everyone who disagrees with me is just a whiny bitch.” I agree with them on a lot of their points, but their reasoning is some kindergartner level bullshit.
The recent growth in EU I attribute to their passion for the game and will to get netter, but past 6-9 months a lot of travel from NA, Mexico, Australia, Canada to Europe which has accelerated the growth
Not really, there's always been the kind of travel we've seen from EU to NA and vice-versa (eg Temple). What we're seeing is the result of the level of popularity Smash has been gaining in France specifically since 2021. The French scene has been getting better and better and France is now having a lot of prodigies/new top players because of that. The other countries in Europe aren't as good as France (although Germany's catching up a bit) - they're top heavy, as they have always been in Ultimate (think about the Netherlands in the past, now UK and Spain are pretty much like that where their top 5/top 2 respectively is strong but that's it) - and top heavy is not enough because it means the top players don't get much XP which is sorely needed if they want to win against seasoned competitors from overseas.
I feel like if top players and commentators pulled funds together and essentially put on their own major but with a new rule set I fee like that’s a good testing ground since they could dictate the rule set. I feel like at the end of the tournament you could do a survey while also tracking people watching streams to get viewer and player responses.
Get the entire community to vote on who gets elected to a committee that decides the unified ruleset. That way, youll still have people who understand what is going on while still giving the community some control over it. A vote for a unified ruleset directly with the masses results in many people having sway over something they dont understand or even compete in. While this method elects people who do understand but the casual and competitive audience get to be part of how that decision is made.
50:15 Here is the truth: 1. Doomers who TO and control ruleset in big tournaments dont care about the meta, all they care about is a good show and hype sets... if they dont agree to lower timers in ult then they just want to favor other smash events aka melee... Prove that is wrong and help ult scene not ignore the community. 2. Quality of changes in ruleset is something ULTIMATE TOs and people in command should have experimented BEFORE banning characters that benefit out of camping: For example Steve, or Sonic benefit more of time in other words less timer they get nerf and get forced to interact. 3. Players dont need to give opinion on rulesets if they are forced to interact because guess what? Meta will change and campy characters will hate that, just do it and buckle up, IS EARLY if you consider a future smash game coming out. Otherwise late would be not doing anything now and regret forever. Great podcast... Wish the ruleset was 6 min so long ago.
I love the conversation you guys had, but definitely want to challenge you all that. If you left this conversation and did not immediately put together an email or a group chat with all of the people that you consider would be valuable towards a unified smash rule set panel, then you still have more work to do.
When they brought up the timer, i was hoping they would bring up the SuPeRbOoMfAn incident where he was at a tournament in Peru and proceeded to camp the hyrule platform for an entire hour to prove that smash needs a timer
I am not a top 1% player. I only been to a few different locals, and at every local there's a tiny variation to DSR or no, weird stages, counterpicking characters, stage striking ect. It just makes players confused that there is no standard ruleset. I started hosting small brackets at my job after work, we get like 10-20 people, and I had no idea what ruleset to choose so I copy/pasted a recent major's ruleset. Everyone thinks I made up the rules and I have no way to tell my entrants that the rules are legitimate, I just picked someone else's rules. I'd love if a few of the major TOs could have the same ruleset/stage list and just give it a name so we can all call it "the standard ruleset" so a Joe shmoe like me can just use that when I host my tiny fun bracket
People say "well people are going to time out more" is silly. The goal of the game is to establish a lead, and if you're the better player you typically will. Wether that happens in 5 minutes which more matches end around anyways or a whopping 7 with lots of dead air in between is not going to change that. I lean to the side that respects everyone's time more.
38:21 now that is just a bad take imo. Yoshidora just hasn't been going to tournaments recently followed by 1 bad result = falling off. Yeah let's just ignore the fact that he had top 4 at his last 4 tournaments before that. If you have the argument that it's just yoshidora, meme literally got top 8 at smash factor.
I will say for the unified ruleset topic, I do think there not being a unified ruleset matters to more than just the top players, cause even though I'm not a player trying to become the best and make money off the game, while I was competing, I still want it to be a competitive experience, and when rulesets aren't synced up or are outdated, it does become frustrating mainly because it makes the game feel like nothing matters lol also, I personally think the stage list should be small battlefield as the only starter (therefore eliminating silly RPS shenanigans) and then you do 4-5 counterpick stages small battlefield is easily the most balanced stage in the game, bi-plat layouts are more balanced for most of the cast, and the size of the stage being a more medium size helps a lot as well, cause it isn't so small that fast characters will just immediately swallow the stage, but it isnt so big like PS2 where a lot of the top tiers are honestly benefited the most
It wasnt a bad fsmash at all lol he was trying to break acolas shield that was low and he was relying on a lot. The problem is acola was using his shield as a bait for the fsmash bc neyo got a BUNCH of fsmash kills by shield poking already in the set and then rolled through.
Charles makes a fair point saying regardless of the timer, timeouts will be attempted at top level play. How often do they happen tho? What percentage of games are timeouts at top level?
The smash community is a community made by young adults for young adults. There are no professionals. These guys can’t even have a serious conversation in a serious way. A unified ruleset without any over exploitable stage choices, that are still exciting for the fans isn’t unobtainable. There’s actually quite a lot of options and that’s why ruleset changes are so frequent. Here’s a nobody’s pitch for the ruleset: No character bans 6 min timer Stages hazards off 2 bans but players can parlay to any stage they want. Can’t pick a stage you have won on already. Stages: Fd Battlefield Ps2 Hollow bastion Kalos I’ll answer any questions/complaints. I think this is simple and effective for everyone.
Somebody make a damn discord chat with all the TOs and top players and figure this shit out 😭 then find a good channel through which to communicate this to the people and help our stupid asses understand the decisions you're all making and why. A bunch of the stuff in this podcast was stuff I wouldn't have thought of myself, but hearing it even just once immediately made it so clear to me. I'm an 0-2er but I open my ears when top players talk and it makes sense
I like the idea of 6, 5 maybe sounds a bit too low but maybe Id be more for it after seeing 6 more first. I think there are some match ups that feel hype and full of interactions even if theyre going longer like tweek vs gluto sets. Not to mention like stated you do end up nerfing some characters like wario.
Regarding standardized rules, I don't necessarily consider it a problem that different tournaments slightly vary their ruleset in terms of stage picks, character selection, bans, etc. Its just something to adjust to, but at the end of the day you're still playing Smash. You can compare it to the sport of tennis which has tournaments on different surfaces (hard, grass, clay, etc), different formats (bo3, bo5, etc), and even different rules about things like tie breaks, on-court coaching, serve timer, etc. The variation is what makes it interesting, and it's not inherently bad IMO.
Smash will never have a unified rule set because there is no pro league; and professionals are playing at same bracket as everyone else. I’m sorry that you guys want Steve legal to get practice; most people just don’t want to fight Steve. While rise and grind banning Steve makes ranking “inconsistent”, it’s awesome for me and my friends and we are flying to Texas to compete in rise and grind for that reason. Pros are in events where they are out numbered 100 to 1. And the money the contribute is not more than anyone else. So their needs aren’t going to be met fully. Yet everyone’s level of “competitiveness” differs. My scene has 0-2ers who are adamant Steve shouldn’t be banned because they can’t get Steve practice. We have people who farm locals and have top player wins who want Steve banned just cause they don’t like fighting him.
After watching the legendary Super Smash Con set between DDee and Sonix, I came to the conclusion that a ruleset with a 7 minute timer is optimal! ✅ Nevertheless, I am curious to see what will happen if the timer gets removed entirely!
Longer timers are better because players takes more time to think about the next interactions. This is especially true in the Wario vs Sonic MU. If Wario rush down Sonic to get through a pourcent deficit and not getting time out, he's most likely to just get whiff punished easly because in this situation Sonic will just camp and punish him over and over. Shorter timer will create more and more time out situations, so bad MU will become just impossible because of camping. You will just make Sonix top 1 in the game 😀. I'm talking about Wario / Sonic MU because i know it well but their is maybe some others MU where this is true. So, making the timer longer will be more competitive in my opinion even if that will make longer sets. Void says that it will benefit the player who got the lead first. Well yes, that's the point this will just force camping and just be a momentum game, the first to get the lead will be most likely to win with shorter timers, making comebacks impossible. I'm not english so forgive my bad english
Idk, it could go the other way around tho. Some people could abuse the longer time to drag down the opponent's mental. And the one in the lead will just continue to camp, or camp until the opponent shows weaknesses and capitalize on that, and once neutral resets, they're incentivized to camp because they still have the lead.
@@marlinmurrell620yeah but mental is a part of the game too, you need to stay composed in all situations, but when you need to rush things because of time you can't play at your best
@@user-vn2uj7hv2z Exactly. And if a player has an extremely strong mental, they're likely fine with playing the game slow and camp their opponent at some point to wear down their mental. Possibly even will to play passively the whole time once they have the percent lead or even stock lead. If they got a stock lead, then they really can play passively the whole time.
A 7 minute match that goes to 60 seconds left is the same as a 6 minute match going to time…except one has an extra amount of fluff before you are forced to interact
Smash Community?? It's a simple fix, have a Goddamn meeting!! Invite, the top players, the top TOs, coaches, and commentators, Present, Discuss, Deligate, Debate, and Vote, From there the winning votes will decide the UNIVERSAL RULES for the game, Have an annual meeting once a year, SIMPLE Solution, the Watch The Throne Event can be a great place for this meeting,
The whole cast, the World's Greatest Gamer as a guest, more than an hour of content, this episode is gonna be GOOD
Get a TO on the Podcast!
Who are these TO‘s and why is it so difficult to find a mutual decision and in general to get a hold of them? It seems like they are unattainable and you can‘t talk to them about this stuff
So true that's a great idea hopefully they can get a TO
They're busy because they have actual jobs
Tweek Talks collabing with the World's Greatest Gamer lets go!
@@PunkySlush You're not that guy
@@PunkySlushLOL
What the hell does that award mean? 😅 sounds like an unhinged award category to me
I get that Void fits in as a routine member, and that you all know him as a friend, but you really didn't treat him as well as other guests. I was extremely interested in hearing you ask about his views on smash like you do with most of the recent people you've brought on, such as Gluto, mkleo, or even marss. Void has so much insight I wanted to hear that just got shut out. He barely got to talk about anything in the first half, especially about himself and his unique experiences. I would have loved if you asked him questions about his recent life, just like you've done for other guests
That said, I'm a long time fan of the pod and a very committed follower of all of you, so I hope this is received in the constructive lens I intend 🍌🍌🍌
Some honestly, wanted to hear of his experiences in Ludwig's/RUclips's tournament. And his thoughts about smash and its influences on being a gamer in other gaming platforms
The timer conversation is needed. Hopefully, the next smash game will have established rulesets (and an overseeing council) to make sure these guys have consistency in their jobs.
Sorry, but it's not happening.
independent ecosystem > some random org that has to appease corpos overseeing everything
Void fits the Tweek Talks vibes really well. Would be nice to see Mute return to another one of these episodes soon too.
YES!
Recently at Ultimate Wanted 5, Kameme won Singles, Doubles with Paseriman and Squads !
For timers, it would be ideal to use denominations that can be tested online too
So excited for the Methodist ruleset
Holy moly Charles is SPITTING about timers
1:02:47 "why are there rankings if we don't have the same rules" trueing
This makes sense regarding time-outs. Ultimately you have to have a condition to shorten matches for the sake of competitive viewership, forcing interactions, and time constraints for the venue. Like it or not the timer is a balanced mechanic.
5 minute timers would make the game much more fun to watch imo
Gluto won singles, doubles, crew battles at Tera
Them discussing the timer, was like watching an adult trying to explain 2+2 to a toddler
mew2king in 64 story killed me
That would be easier to do
Honestly, I’d take a closer look at the unified european ruleset. It makes a lot of sense. The reason it has yoshi’s is because it needs 9 stages to function, and could theoretically be swapped for northern cave. Other issues are caused by the stages themselves, which is an ultimate problem rather than a ruleset problem. Some US regions already follow it, such as mine, although people from out of region hate traveling to us because they don’t want to learn a new ruleset. Overall, it’s probably the most popular ruleset globally, we just need to see places like the US and japan adopt it.
The ideal rule set: 1 stock, 10 min, BO1, big battlefield only, single elim
Chuck was on another level of anger about rulesets and I dont know why. He just started angry and got angrier even when everyone agreed with him.
Most Overrated character: Kazuya or Shulk
Most Underrated: Marth or Lucas (they are all cracked)
1:02:12 the midwest is the same, pretty much any midwestern tournament runs the midwest unified ruleset, character first, 5 starters 3 counterpicks, ps2, bf, sbf, t&c and sv starters, fd, kalos and hb counters
I’m in one of the first regions that implemented character first, did it pretty much as soon as we realized that anyone could counterpick FD, pick Kazuya and have a massive advantage. It’s worked out very well for us. Midwest Unified Ruleset ruleset I’ve seen used so far. Not perfect but it’s good for what people will actually play on
Underrated Wii-Fit
I truely believe that this character has yet to peak
People just dont want players like Sonix to win which is why they are so against shortening the time even though shortening the time is the obvious solution to boring matches.
Not true. People are hesitant to do that because if you shorten the timer than timeouts are an even better and more practical strategy if you have to camp for less time to do it
@@Riley-u8m
If timeouts happen too soon, THERE IS NO CAMPING TIME.
This is the meaning of forcing interactions.
@user-el1nv9hd1l Matches would still be more entertaining overall
@@Riley-u8mnote the key thing you just said: "camp for less time." Shorter timer makes timeouts more hype
@@steav677 there is absolutely circle camping time for the characters that can do it
everyone just uses the european unified ruleset. thank you for the ted talk.
In my opinion, aiming at a timeout is a negative tactic, it's anti-smash just like say anti-football in football. I mean, obviously, it is subjective but I think a lot of people would agree with me : the point of the game is the interactions between the characters ; the hits, the combos, the edgeguards, the kills. Camping in order to get a timeout is just avoiding all that. That's on top of being generally bad for viewers (as a viewer I fully disagree with the idea that timeouts are hype - in the vast majority of cases you know who's gonna take it 2 minutes before the game ends).
Time outs aren't necessarily bad because it will be reached at some point even in a game between two slower paced players who are playing the game normally ; it means they both failed to get through their opponent's defence in the given time, it's perfectly fairplay. And the given time is necessary to run a tourney on time. Changing the timer won't change anything, fully agree with that.
But, couldn't we have a rule which prevents timeouts from being made a consistent tactic?
Imagine the following : at the beginning of every set, each player has a counter at 0. When a player wins a timeout game, their counter goes up. When a game goes to time out, you first look at the player counter ; if they're equal, you proceed as usual ; if they're not, you give the game to whoever has the lower counter.
So, it prevents time outs from being a consistent tactic throughout a set. If you took a game through time out, you have to approach next games or give a game back ; show that you're good enough at smash to actually approach your opponent, and not just camp all game as soon as you've taken a lead.
doesn't this ruleset just make timing out much easier in the second game for the loser. You can just not approach ever even with losing so that makes the person who lost the second match to camp more as the person who timed out round 1 has to approach always.
Ehh, idk. My thing is that if you're good at the game, you'd be able to deal with it and win. And then what happens when someone wins through timeout and they're up a stock? The game just goes to the opponent when they were playing campy and the opponent wasn't able to bring it back? That just doesn't seem fair.
did u miss the part where shortening the timer forces interactions. timeouts suck because of the camping, if its a 5 minute timer timeouts would be hype
@@2FadeMusic Hard disagree with that. From a viewer's perspective, the hypest part of smash are the kills - the edgeguards, the reads, the kill combos, even the kill confirms - and whatever happens in timeouts there's less kills, by definition.
That, plus the hype timeouts happen only when both characters are close in percents and you're not sure who is gonna win - and even then, they're clearly not as hype as last-hit situations in non-timeouts, when you're not sure if a move is gonna kill or not, and there's moves barely not killing like 4 times in a row before the game is over.
In fact, even if one player has a big stock and percent lead, with enough time, the other could still come back with some early spikes and 0-to-death. But if someone has a big lead AND the timer is running out, sometimes, there's just physically not enough time for the opponent to come back. Those timeouts are the ONLY games when you can say who's won with 100% certainty before the end of the game, making them the least hype games in general, not even taking in account camping. And they're more common than hype timeouts.
Besides, I'm personally against lowering the timer to 5 minutes because I've seen very good low-paced matches which took like 5 minutes where there was no real camping, only both players taking it slow. I'm not against low-paced or longer matches at all. In a 5 minutes timer those matches would be impossible. I just don't think a low timer works for this smash game in many, many matchups.
I love how everyone on here knows exactly how underrated Marth is. Lucina kills later than Marth and I am sick of the whole "Marth's Tippers don't work" nonsense. If you can't land tippers, YOU are doing something wrong because they legit buffed the tipper size several times on most of his moves. Look at his frame data and the tippers cover almost half of his sword now on a majority of his kit.
Lucina also has times when she struggles to kill, despite being more "consistent." There are times when I struggle to defeat players with Lucina because she legit can't kill with half her kit, whereas Marth kills these same players so freaking easily because almost every move kills at a good percent with tipper. He has way better combos and confirms, which negates the whole "he sucks at killing" argument. His edge-guards are so much more scary because of tipper, and even sours kill good offstage against the majority of the cast.
Thank the Lord for Tweek Talks! Bless these men.
Love the in-depth discussion and longer episodes. Keep it up guys!
Tweek has always had the perfect lineup against Greninja with Wario and Diddy. Usually you value other characters based on who you main. So yeah it makes sense he thinks the frog is trash lmao
I bet Hbox could be convinced to give a 5 minute timer a try in coinbox to create a discussion. I'd like to see a shorter timer myself.
I love your argument about Top Players being ruthless and doing whatever it takes to win!
I would love for you to talk about that thought process using Steve now. Too many people think that picking up Steve and winning majors is incredibly easy. If that were the case, every top player would pick up Steve to win but that’s not the case.
Steve is incredibly broken and the best character in the game but the time investment is clearly too high for top players to commit to that strategy. It is apparent top players would rather use Mythra as their pocket pick.
It's not an issue of steve requiring too much investment. People are going to play the characters they want to play. Even at the very top level, players don't exclusively play the best character in the game. Most often, players will look a group of top tiers and play the one that they enjoy the most and/or fits their style the most.
There's also an ego issue where a good portion of top players would refuse to play a blatantly broken character because they think they don't need it.
Lastly, there's a very bad stigma around playing Steve. No matter how good you are and how well you place at events, if you play steve, your results are discredited and you get no respect.
I agree
It is very hard to believe this when players on this very podcast picked up Bayo to win in Smash 4. If you were around during Smash 4 then you know the stigma surrounding Bayo was also awful and only got worse after EVO. This still didn't stop Tweek, Pink Fresh, Leo, Abadongo, and other players from using Bayo when they needed that win.
Sure you can say that EVERY top player that transitioned from Smash 4 to Ultimate decided to be noble but that doesn't explain the lack of other top players playing the character. The character is clearly the best character in the game now and I guarantee there are players that do not care about the stigma behind the character. Their ego is only satiated by winning. Even Dabuz admitted that Steve is difficult to play.
This leads me to believe that the investment for Steve to be competitive at top-level play MUST take considerable effort and that top players overall deem playing him not worth it. Obviously, this may change in the future if Steve becomes mandatory to win P-tier tournaments but if we are speaking for the present, this is not the case.
It is also very clear, that even with an immense amount of time playing Ultimate, your fundamentals don't transfer as well to Steve as they would other characters like Pyra/Mythra because we have seen Leo, Spargo, Cosmos, Shuton, and others use Mythra to get place, if not even win majors.@@DemonEyeHelix
@@joshuaseco7115 There's a big difference in that Bayo was definitively in her own tier in sm4sh. She was so much better than every other sm4sh character that if you wanted to have any real shot at winning towards the end of the game's lifespan, you had to pick up bayo.
Steve is broken and the best character, but the gap isn't nearly as big as the gap between bayo and the rest of the game.
@@DemonEyeHelix According to Liquidpedia, Cosmos won the Big House 8 going all Corrin. Runner-Up was Esam who used all Pikachu and even beat Tweek's bayo the set before.
MkLeo won Smash Con 2018 and he did not go bayonetta a single game in top 8. In fact, the only time he did go bayo as far as I can see was against Nairo's ZERO SUIT. Runner-Up of this tournament was Samsora who did not play a single game of bayo and in fact, beat Tweek's bayo forcing him to switch to Diddy Kong.
Void won Smash n Splash 4 with only Sheik, Dabuz won Frostbite only using Rosa, MkLeo won Genesis 5 using Marth, Cloud, and Metaknight, and Eim won the FINAL Smash 4 Umebura with just Sheik.
These are all tournaments that took place in 2018, the final year where people were competing in Smash 4 tournaments. Bayo was not a "MUST PICK" by any means. Top players picked the character up because it gave them the greatest chance of winning tournaments and you could pick up the character very quickly.
We can't see Acola having only rank losses to Spargo in the last 6 months just playing Steve and not say the reward for mastering the character is massive.
I am not saying that Steve is better than Bayo because Witch Time by itself was better than 90% of the roster in Smash 4 but I am saying that Steve has notable enough strengths that people are calling for bans of the character and he actually has been banned in some areas. There are 100% top players who would pick up the character if it meant more success. A lot of these top players don't care about ego because Smash Bros is literally their job. It is not a game they just play for fun. They need to win and have their name used more on the internet to make a living.
Even on the recent Tweek Talks, Charles says the Game and Watch is one of the best secondary characters to have because he dominates matchups and is easy to use. He even made it a point to say if he competed more often he would use Fox and Game and Watch to cover his bad matchups. This is the same Charles that has been outspoken about how broken and stupid the character is to use.
Can’t wait to listen to this during my workout
The way other games solve camping with no timer is with smaller stages. At minimum, smaller stages support the idea of more interactions even with a timer. So instead of focusing on timer as the problem, it's too bad stages just can't be smaller.
But think about it - regardless of whether or not you like viewing time outs, would we really want Ultimate to become a time out a game? Is that what we want Ultimate to be well-known for?
The characters that are good at timing out will literally just dominate the meta.
For me:
-> Most Overrated Character: Kazuya
-> Most Underrated Character: Lucas or Marth tbh
Disagree with Kazuya agree with Lucas
You can di ewgf and kazuya might have the worst disadvantage in the game. Kazuya is definitely overrated.@@Greedude
@@Greedude absolutely no results without riddles entering tournies. although in my low level locals kazuya dominates
Programming wise, it is technically possible to code an interaction timer. Similar to chess, the one that camps starts having their "camping time" depleted, if it reaches 0 you automatically lose the game. So it would be a resource that both players have, but if abused, you lose.
Isn’t tweek talks n smash university involved with that throne tournament coming up? Bam there’s your chance to implement 5/6 minute timers just before smash 6
I know how separate the melee and ult communities are, but next time you want to have a dedicated rules discussion, you should get Toph on. You can talk about melee and ult specific rules and ideas, but also ones that overlap like the timer
This is quickly becoming my favorite Podcast, not Smash podcast, but Podcast in general. Good shit guys!
Watch the Throne should be 6 minute timer
What’s stopping all the top players, TO’s, and commentators from making an organization that can act as a governing body
They could literally have a discord call where they talk about what the rule set and others stuff should be
There’s literally so many people and I don’t see why they can’t make a democratic body
I'd also be interested in hearing a conversation in how a timer change would affect the meta. Methinks it'd strengthen heavy punish characters and characters with good neutral/mobility more forced interactions will favor them and they get more out of them and can abuse their mobility even better. I wonder what other people think?
Diddy is such a interesting character in the smash ult scene
Kameme got the Triple at Wanted this year
Maybe try the timer thing for yalls watch the throne
The idea that timeouts are bad stem from the fact that currently if there’s a timeout that means the set was really long and campy. But if the timer is shorter, that’s no longer the case.
That's not a fact. Timeouts on shorter timers are easier so you'd just have more people being uninteractive bc the timeout win condition is easier.
Doesn’t matter what the actual points are, the way this podcast makes and defends their arguments are so illogical. It’s so much “you’re bad, I’m right” and “I’m an authority so I’m automatically right (even if there’s other top players that disagree with me)” or “everyone who disagrees with me is just a whiny bitch.”
I agree with them on a lot of their points, but their reasoning is some kindergartner level bullshit.
Gluto probably got the triple crown in Europe several times
Void should have said whadup it’s Sheik or Void
The recent growth in EU I attribute to their passion for the game and will to get netter, but past 6-9 months a lot of travel from NA, Mexico, Australia, Canada to Europe which has accelerated the growth
Not really, there's always been the kind of travel we've seen from EU to NA and vice-versa (eg Temple).
What we're seeing is the result of the level of popularity Smash has been gaining in France specifically since 2021. The French scene has been getting better and better and France is now having a lot of prodigies/new top players because of that. The other countries in Europe aren't as good as France (although Germany's catching up a bit) - they're top heavy, as they have always been in Ultimate (think about the Netherlands in the past, now UK and Spain are pretty much like that where their top 5/top 2 respectively is strong but that's it) - and top heavy is not enough because it means the top players don't get much XP which is sorely needed if they want to win against seasoned competitors from overseas.
I feel like if top players and commentators pulled funds together and essentially put on their own major but with a new rule set I fee like that’s a good testing ground since they could dictate the rule set. I feel like at the end of the tournament you could do a survey while also tracking people watching streams to get viewer and player responses.
1:02:55 Talk that talk Gavin Let em know !!!
Haz, just know your "screaming into the..." joke was appreciated and I'm sorry no one laughed
Get the entire community to vote on who gets elected to a committee that decides the unified ruleset. That way, youll still have people who understand what is going on while still giving the community some control over it. A vote for a unified ruleset directly with the masses results in many people having sway over something they dont understand or even compete in. While this method elects people who do understand but the casual and competitive audience get to be part of how that decision is made.
Please make Watch the Throne Ruleset 6 minute matches. Actually better for all the reasons you guys stated.
1:16:23 No eyes Haz looks fire, also Yeh Void I had that same Hazard on tought ever since Small BF dropped,
64 uses a mod that has a timer and has used a timer competitively for more than 6 years now
VoiD is a wonderful guest! Really love what this podcast does and the platform it gives competitors
YESSSIR VOID
Yoo you guys are hosting a tourny!!!! Change it to 6 or 6 mins per game! Just dooo it @watch the throne!
50:15 Here is the truth:
1. Doomers who TO and control ruleset in big tournaments dont care about the meta, all they care about is a good show and hype sets... if they dont agree to lower timers in ult then they just want to favor other smash events aka melee... Prove that is wrong and help ult scene not ignore the community.
2. Quality of changes in ruleset is something ULTIMATE TOs and people in command should have experimented BEFORE banning characters that benefit out of camping: For example Steve, or Sonic benefit more of time in other words less timer they get nerf and get forced to interact.
3. Players dont need to give opinion on rulesets if they are forced to interact because guess what? Meta will change and campy characters will hate that, just do it and buckle up, IS EARLY if you consider a future smash game coming out. Otherwise late would be not doing anything now and regret forever.
Great podcast... Wish the ruleset was 6 min so long ago.
Even 5 min would have made Steve so nerfed
I like when y’all bring up sports
I love the conversation you guys had, but definitely want to challenge you all that. If you left this conversation and did not immediately put together an email or a group chat with all of the people that you consider would be valuable towards a unified smash rule set panel, then you still have more work to do.
When they brought up the timer, i was hoping they would bring up the SuPeRbOoMfAn incident where he was at a tournament in Peru and proceeded to camp the hyrule platform for an entire hour to prove that smash needs a timer
I am not a top 1% player. I only been to a few different locals, and at every local there's a tiny variation to DSR or no, weird stages, counterpicking characters, stage striking ect. It just makes players confused that there is no standard ruleset.
I started hosting small brackets at my job after work, we get like 10-20 people, and I had no idea what ruleset to choose so I copy/pasted a recent major's ruleset. Everyone thinks I made up the rules and I have no way to tell my entrants that the rules are legitimate, I just picked someone else's rules. I'd love if a few of the major TOs could have the same ruleset/stage list and just give it a name so we can all call it "the standard ruleset" so a Joe shmoe like me can just use that when I host my tiny fun bracket
VoiD is so real for saying Aegis is overrated, being exploitable offstage is so huge in tournaments
Greatest gamer gets it
People say "well people are going to time out more" is silly. The goal of the game is to establish a lead, and if you're the better player you typically will. Wether that happens in 5 minutes which more matches end around anyways or a whopping 7 with lots of dead air in between is not going to change that. I lean to the side that respects everyone's time more.
Just put back on stage morph or transformation then each player picks a stage. Easy fix 🤣👌🏼
didnt quidd do the triple dub somewhat recently? or was that just 2 also
38:21 now that is just a bad take imo. Yoshidora just hasn't been going to tournaments recently followed by 1 bad result = falling off. Yeah let's just ignore the fact that he had top 4 at his last 4 tournaments before that. If you have the argument that it's just yoshidora, meme literally got top 8 at smash factor.
RIP Void's Rock Paper Scissors RNG
I will say for the unified ruleset topic, I do think there not being a unified ruleset matters to more than just the top players, cause even though I'm not a player trying to become the best and make money off the game, while I was competing, I still want it to be a competitive experience, and when rulesets aren't synced up or are outdated, it does become frustrating mainly because it makes the game feel like nothing matters lol
also, I personally think the stage list should be small battlefield as the only starter (therefore eliminating silly RPS shenanigans) and then you do 4-5 counterpick stages
small battlefield is easily the most balanced stage in the game, bi-plat layouts are more balanced for most of the cast, and the size of the stage being a more medium size helps a lot as well, cause it isn't so small that fast characters will just immediately swallow the stage, but it isnt so big like PS2 where a lot of the top tiers are honestly benefited the most
It wasnt a bad fsmash at all lol he was trying to break acolas shield that was low and he was relying on a lot.
The problem is acola was using his shield as a bait for the fsmash bc neyo got a BUNCH of fsmash kills by shield poking already in the set and then rolled through.
Charles makes a fair point saying regardless of the timer, timeouts will be attempted at top level play. How often do they happen tho? What percentage of games are timeouts at top level?
The smash community is a community made by young adults for young adults. There are no professionals. These guys can’t even have a serious conversation in a serious way. A unified ruleset without any over exploitable stage choices, that are still exciting for the fans isn’t unobtainable. There’s actually quite a lot of options and that’s why ruleset changes are so frequent.
Here’s a nobody’s pitch for the ruleset:
No character bans
6 min timer
Stages hazards off
2 bans but players can parlay to any stage they want.
Can’t pick a stage you have won on already.
Stages:
Fd
Battlefield
Ps2
Hollow bastion
Kalos
I’ll answer any questions/complaints. I think this is simple and effective for everyone.
Somebody make a damn discord chat with all the TOs and top players and figure this shit out 😭 then find a good channel through which to communicate this to the people and help our stupid asses understand the decisions you're all making and why. A bunch of the stuff in this podcast was stuff I wouldn't have thought of myself, but hearing it even just once immediately made it so clear to me. I'm an 0-2er but I open my ears when top players talk and it makes sense
Tweek talks is hosting watch the throne, why not test out the 5/6 minute rule set there??? It’s literally your tournament 😭
I'm a not a looser or a winner I don't play smash, i just watch it. And as a watcher, either decrease it or leave it alone, BUT DON'T INCREASE IT.
VOIIIIIIDDDDD
Aaron is the best Diddy
Rip Panda
Love these videos! ❤
4 stocks 8 min, let's gooooooooo!
2:07 Isn’t the next qualifying event LMM Miami?
We do 6 minutes here in utah
I like the idea of 6, 5 maybe sounds a bit too low but maybe Id be more for it after seeing 6 more first. I think there are some match ups that feel hype and full of interactions even if theyre going longer like tweek vs gluto sets. Not to mention like stated you do end up nerfing some characters like wario.
I just need one warioware only 5 minute timer tournament before this game dies please god
Tweek talks + VoiD should contact every tournament and tell them what ruleset to use /hj
5 mins would be perfect. The game would be more exciting and tournaments can end earlier if on schedule.👌
"Press 1 if you're a loser" I'm crying dude lol
Regarding standardized rules, I don't necessarily consider it a problem that different tournaments slightly vary their ruleset in terms of stage picks, character selection, bans, etc. Its just something to adjust to, but at the end of the day you're still playing Smash.
You can compare it to the sport of tennis which has tournaments on different surfaces (hard, grass, clay, etc), different formats (bo3, bo5, etc), and even different rules about things like tie breaks, on-court coaching, serve timer, etc. The variation is what makes it interesting, and it's not inherently bad IMO.
Smash will never have a unified rule set because there is no pro league; and professionals are playing at same bracket as everyone else. I’m sorry that you guys want Steve legal to get practice; most people just don’t want to fight Steve. While rise and grind banning Steve makes ranking “inconsistent”, it’s awesome for me and my friends and we are flying to Texas to compete in rise and grind for that reason. Pros are in events where they are out numbered 100 to 1. And the money the contribute is not more than anyone else. So their needs aren’t going to be met fully. Yet everyone’s level of “competitiveness” differs. My scene has 0-2ers who are adamant Steve shouldn’t be banned because they can’t get Steve practice. We have people who farm locals and have top player wins who want Steve banned just cause they don’t like fighting him.
After watching the legendary Super Smash Con set between DDee and Sonix, I came to the conclusion that a ruleset with a 7 minute timer is optimal! ✅ Nevertheless, I am curious to see what will happen if the timer gets removed entirely!
Is tweek going to Cirque du CFL?
*The Goat* ft *The Goat* = 🐐🐐🐐
Longer timers are better because players takes more time to think about the next interactions. This is especially true in the Wario vs Sonic MU. If Wario rush down Sonic to get through a pourcent deficit and not getting time out, he's most likely to just get whiff punished easly because in this situation Sonic will just camp and punish him over and over. Shorter timer will create more and more time out situations, so bad MU will become just impossible because of camping. You will just make Sonix top 1 in the game 😀. I'm talking about Wario / Sonic MU because i know it well but their is maybe some others MU where this is true. So, making the timer longer will be more competitive in my opinion even if that will make longer sets. Void says that it will benefit the player who got the lead first. Well yes, that's the point this will just force camping and just be a momentum game, the first to get the lead will be most likely to win with shorter timers, making comebacks impossible. I'm not english so forgive my bad english
Idk, it could go the other way around tho. Some people could abuse the longer time to drag down the opponent's mental. And the one in the lead will just continue to camp, or camp until the opponent shows weaknesses and capitalize on that, and once neutral resets, they're incentivized to camp because they still have the lead.
@@marlinmurrell620yeah but mental is a part of the game too, you need to stay composed in all situations, but when you need to rush things because of time you can't play at your best
@@user-vn2uj7hv2z Exactly. And if a player has an extremely strong mental, they're likely fine with playing the game slow and camp their opponent at some point to wear down their mental. Possibly even will to play passively the whole time once they have the percent lead or even stock lead. If they got a stock lead, then they really can play passively the whole time.
@@marlinmurrell620yes and it's not a problem except for viewers
Coins saying fox is overrated is wild lol, who in their right mind thinks fox is bad? 😂
Do 5 minutes at Watch The Throne and get the results from that.
We need a top player to be a TO
we also need to try to adjust the coin box rule set to be 6 minute timer that could be a good place to start
A 7 minute match that goes to 60 seconds left is the same as a 6 minute match going to time…except one has an extra amount of fluff before you are forced to interact
So... You guys are asking for a Smash Government
Smash Community?? It's a simple fix, have a Goddamn meeting!! Invite, the top players, the top TOs, coaches, and commentators,
Present, Discuss, Deligate, Debate, and Vote,
From there the winning votes will decide the UNIVERSAL RULES for the game,
Have an annual meeting once a year,
SIMPLE Solution, the Watch The Throne Event can be a great place for this meeting,
Tweek talks, but Void Verbates