Conversation with a Mormon Bishop
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- Опубликовано: 24 авг 2024
- Aaron Shafovaloff (@AaronShafovaloff1) and Mormon Bishop / Apologist Scott Adams have a conversation about this question: Can Mormons and Evangelicals fellowship together?
Latter-day Saints regularly claim that they're a Christian Church - and yet Christians persistently deny that claim. Aaron and Scott discuss whether Mormons should be broadly considered Christian, and whether Christians can/should accept Mormons as a facet of legitimate Christianity.
Here are the three sub-points of this conversation:
1. WHY can’t evangelicals and Mormons spiritually fellowship together?
2. In what practical ways CAN'T Evangelicals and Mormons fellowship?
3. What CAN Evangelicals and Mormons do to together?
The LDS Church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) claims to be Christian - after all, they teach about Jesus! Yet, the church teaches of The Restoration - the idea that Joseph Smith RESTORED Christ's true Church to the earth. In fact, Joseph's first vision includes Him saying that ALL the Christian churches of his day were false. Thus, the degree to which Members of the LDS Church and Christians can fellowship is a debatable issue.
Special thanks to both Aaron and Scott for discussing these topics. May the Lord use it to cause us to think and live rightly!
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I was born and raised in the Mormon church and I truly never felt the holy Spirit. After I left I prayed for baptism of the holy Spirit and I received it. It was amazing! Since I became a true Christian I learned that everyone that believes in the Gospel of Jesus has the ability to lay hands on the sick and see them healed. It's the most wonderful thing I've ever experienced. Nobody talks about this in the Mormon church and yet it's in the Bible. I believe that there's only one God and we are not him. He is the alpha and the Omega the beginning and the end the first and the last there is none other like him nor will there ever be. I left the Mormon church because of offenses that happened to me and my family. Then I started reading and studying the KJV Bible and I found many things that contradict what I was taught in the Mormon church. I prayed about it and God through his holy spirit reveal to me that the Bible is the true word of God. Not Mormonism. I apologize to any of my family that may be offended if they read this. I don't mean to offend anyone, just State the facts.
I've been witnessing to Mormons for the past 6 years. I watched almost every video on Aaron's channel. I'm very happy to see Aaron explaining how infinitely different the Christian faith is from the Mormon faith with great love and respect, I'm also happy to hear that LDS bishop is willing to acknowledge those differences with respect and patience.
The Latter-day Saints Receive the Gift and Power of the Holy Ghost after Baptism by the Laying on Hands. As recorded in Acts Chapter 8 and also in Acts Chapter 18-19 of new members who had just joined the church who didn't have the Holy Ghost, and were only baptized with just water had to be given also gift of the holy ghost by ordinance by the apostles after their baptism into the Church. So the gift and power of the Holy Ghost is received by an ordinance from God.
The second thing you need to realize is that Latter-Day Saints also testify and confess that Jesus is risen up in the flesh, just as Bible also testifies and witnesses of Jesus being raised up in the flesh as recorded in 1 John. where John gives his own testimony to confirm this truth of the resurrection of Christ being physical and tangible in the flesh, Christ ate food to prove to his disciples that it was a tangible resurrection of a body of flesh and bones and not just a spirit...
The third thing you need to understand is that Paul prayed to God the Father in the name of Jesus just as Latter-day saints are taught to do to bend the knees to pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus.. Paul did the same thing....And The fourth thing you need to realize is that families exist both down on earth and also up in heaven as confessed by Paul Himself in Ephesians 3:14-15 when talking about the families of all the earth and said they exist on earth and also up in heaven..
As for the pre-existence, that is also in the Bible Found in Ecclesiastes 12:7 where the spirits of all men had existed with God before coming to earth to get themselves a body from the dust of the earth and then die and their body returns back to the dust of the earth while their spirits
return back again into God's presence back to where they originally came from..I see no conflict with this bible truth.
The fifth thing you need to realize is that the Kingdom of God is also full of divine exalted beings, as recorded in Revelations Chapter 5 of John's vision of seeing all the exalted Kings sitting up in heaven ruling alongside with God the Father and with the Lamb of God with all their crowns God had given them. Or why Jesus was chosen out of all the heavenly hosts (of the children of God) to approach up to God the Father on the throne to be chosen to become the Savior and Redeemer of the World for Jesus was chosen by the Father for his earthly mission because nobody else in the society among all the hosts of heaven was even worthy enough to become the Father's Chosen Christ..
So right there in Revelations Chapter 5 you have the Council Assembly in Heaven and Jesus being chosen out of all the heavenly hosts...Latter-day saints teach that we were all present in that Council before coming to earth when Jehovah was chosen to become the Savior of the world, the Bible confirms this truth of a heavenly council assembly...
The faithful saints are not just only saved. They are given also crowns and thrones and rule forever with God in the Celestial Kingdom in glory where he is. Paul said the Saints will inherit crowns as Paul said he would also inherit a crown of righteousness from God up in Heaven after finishing his earthly ministry. 2 Tim 4:8 So he knew he was destined to become a Heavenly King to rule with God. As its clear in Revelations to the Saints that the Lord will make the saints become his Kings (Rev 1:6, Rev 3:11) and when you become a king you also inherit all things of the Father and become like him.. So it is true that the Saints can become like God because they become joint heirs with Christ and also with God... Its all there taught in the Bible about the saints receiving a eternal inheritance from God.
God being embodied with a physical resurrected body does not mean that his eternal omnipresent spirit cannot be in and through all things and above all things to allow God to know all things and this is what Aaron is struggling with to try to wrap his mind around when it comes to the Omnipresent Spirit that God has that makes it possible for all the saints to become one with him who inherit his kingdom.
Look at a computer fractal pattern then you begin to see why the kingdom of God is like a fractal no matter where in the pattern that you go into it just continues the same pattern on forever... So I have no problem with God teaching the existence of the kingdom of God in saying' Let us make man in our image after our own likeness' Indicating there are others like unto himself that exist in the kingdom. When he also said to Adam 'Behold, the man has become as one of US to know good and evil' so God is not the only guy in the universe who has the knowledge of Good and Evil. There are others like him who belong to the same order in the kingdom of God who also have that same knowledge that God has.
Where it not so, there would not exist heavenly kings ruling up in heaven with God having the same knowledge that God has. Rev 3:21 tells you how these righteous saints become Kings unto God. They overcame by faith the same as Jesus Christ did by obedience to inherit all glory from the Father.
However God exalts his Saints by his OWN POWER 1 Peter 5:12 The exalted saints do not worship themselves but they worship God. John saw this in vision of all the Redeemed of the Saints that they were all praising both God and the Lamb they were not worshiping just only themselves.
@@germanslice Joseph Smith refuted God who has been God from all eternity in the Kings Follette sermon. He also called a Trinitarian God a monster in his history of the church book.
@@germanslice please please buy a book called "Where Does It Say That? " and see your original doctrine that has changed and changed again and everything added is completely false. Please read the bible on its own. Beginning to end. The bishop did not enlighten me or this evangelical at all because he knows what to do, but there is no conviction behind it.
@@germanslice You're wrong. Many Christians of all sects, actually experience the Holy Spirit regularly.
🎶🎶🎶🎵
Good conversation. As an Ex Mormon now Christian it’s good to have these conversations
His answer for the King Follet was poor as usual, no Mormon can really reconcile that, but you can see at certain times he was pausing and thinking. Aaron you definitely planted a seed in him
Also the Gods graces thing presupposes that LDS is another denomination. It’s not, if it was, Islam could be considered another denomination.
I pray every Mormon, Jehovah Witness, Muslim come into the true historical Jesus. He is the I Am❤️
Praying for Scott’s son.
Also praying for the Holy Spirit to be at work in his heart and mind, so he can come to see the major and irreconcilable differences between Joseph Smith’s teachings with the biblical Gospel.
@@Imtryingtobelikejesus-m1m those that worship someone else other than Jesus Christ, the Bible is very clear where those people are going to go. Wether they are good people or not means very little. Only the Jesus Christ will say where Mormons are going. There’s no salvation in satans brother.
@@jasonwolfe7986 no, that not what Bible says. That’s what your pastor told you it says.
Does your god have a plan to save those who didn’t know of Jesus in mortal life?
@@Kapayapaanman If we read scripture, ...
_"For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God"_ Romans 1:20
Imagine you’re a judge. Your job is to uphold and execute the law. It’s the only standard you must adhere to, and you must do it unflinchingly. One day a man stands before you-a vile, wicked murderer. The evidence against him is ironclad. There’s no doubt about his guilt-he openly admits it. He confesses what he did and says he’s very sorry. Then he asks you to forgive him. And in spite of what the law says, in spite of your responsibility to dispatch justice, you grant him complete forgiveness and let him walk free. We’d certainly be horrified if human judges operated that way.
in the final analysis, we must trust the wisdom of an unfathomably good and merciful God. It’s the posture of humility. After all, it is not our place to subject the Creator to our finite and fallen notions of fairness. Our task is to take him at his word and trust his heart. His ways are higher and different than ours (Isa. 55:8-9). He needs no counselor, for he is good and does good (Ps. 119:68; Rom. 11:34). The Judge of all the earth will do right (Gen. 18:25).
The Bible tells me directly in scripture. The Pastor doesn't provide "revelations" nor could any man that is neither inspired or infallible.
There is only salvation in one name, Jesus Christ who is GOD, Savior, Creator, and eternal.
@@Imtryingtobelikejesus-m1m so do you condemn Mormon missionaries as judgmental for preaching to Christians your version of the Gospel? And if not, why do you say Christians are for wanting Mormons, who we view as following a false gospel and false god, to find God for real?
Loved this! Aaron has come so far from his younger years and his love is tangible. The bishop shows an amazing amount of patience despite the fact that many at this point would start putting up the wall. In fact this bishop shows a willingness to dialogue uncomfortable topics for an LDS and I pray the Lord opens his eyes to the truth in Scriptures, I think He already is and may take time but still reach him.
Seriously loved this. There was no hiding Aaron's convictions in Scriptures but he did it in love and has my deepest respect as a fellow brother in the faith. LDS are beautiful people and are the object of God's affection. So many struggle with those feelings of unworthiness, unforgiveness, and the inability to do all they can do.
I really loved this dialogue.
You guys who make all these videos in speaking out against those of the wedding guests of the Father's House are clueless (lack the understanding and knowledge) because you don't know how to dress up for the occasion to meet with the King's Son yourselves.. if you think you can just sneak your way into the King's Palace by your own ways like Vaan did and think you won't be detected by the King of Heaven Himself you are fooling yourselves..
For all of the wedding guests who were all invited in by the King of Heaven (God the Father) to attend the wedding feast of his Son Jesus Christ (who is the Bridegroom) for that's what the wedding is all about the wedding marriage of God's Son) all guests who attend the wedding must be all properly dressed up also for the occasion or they will be rejected from out of the King's House if any of the wedding guests are found not to be properly dressed.
The Parable of the Wedding of the King's Son.
The King of Heaven when he came into the room to join in with all his other wedding guests immediately spotted the one man who stood out from all the other guests who didn't have the wedding garment and approached him and said, Friend, how camest thou in without having a wedding garment?
And the man was left speechless.
Yeah great Idea Vaan, you just got caught red handed by God Himself.. Tried to sneak into the King's Palace without having on the proper gear.
Because you cannot deceive the King of Heaven for God the Father knows everything that goes on within in his own house.
SO the King of Heaven then said to his Servants, go and bind up this man hand and foot and then threw the intruder out of his palace.
Why was he cast out and hauled away why was this man treated as an Intruder and as a thief and a robber and not as a wedding guest when
he entered into the King's palace by his own way and not through the way of God's servants the prophets?
This man had refused to accept the King's invitations to come into the wedding feast to get the wedding garment, so he refused to obey the King's Rules for his wedding guests, and wanted to do things instead all his own way to try to find another way to get into the King's Palace without having to obey the King's rules.
And it was the similar also with all the foolish virgins who were not properly dressed up and ready to meet with the Bridegroom, they were also cast away from the Kings House because they didn't meet the necessary requirements which these virgins knew about.
I love the many ways this conversation indirectly and directly encourages people to examine the definitions of the words they use and to define their beliefs. We can actually talk about ideas and beliefs if words/definitions are clarified. It's possible to actually identify truth and error if we dig into definitions.
Thanks both for participating in this conversation. Something interesting to point out is that Latter Day Saints say that they have additional revelations, scriptures and knowledge about God than Protestants, but Scott the LDS bishop keeps answering Aaron with “I don’t know” or “we don’t know” for almost every question he asks.
I respect that. It is the first step in the right direction
Interesting point. Even still, I think it is good to not let our feeling of lack of knowledge, to hinder us in reaching out and sharing those things that are important to us. I think I share not as much as I should because I want to be prepared for those conversations, but when will I ever know everything? Anyway, just some thoughts. God bless.
Thankful to hear this, thankful for the courtesy and kindness offered in spite of major theological differences.
A wonderful and beautiful conversation between two fine gentlemen.
There’s a lots of “in my view…”. Comments. Our opinions or views don’t matter. Gods word is the only truth and the only way. You can’t say you belief a prophet in a church, but then take their “prophetic” comments and then twist them in to your personal views. That twists everything into a whole lot of confusion. This is why any sought after spiritual knowledge outside the Bible is so damaging. I’m speaking as a former member of that church. Since becoming a born again believer and studying Gods word in the Bible I have been given so much
clarity and peace and understanding… but especially peace. Compare everything to the word of God in the Bible and you will be ok. You will not be deceived by other religions.
This was a great conversation by the way. Thank you for doing it.
I really appreciate the fact that both of you have mutual respect for each other.
Great and respectful discussion! Kudos to both participants!
Great conversation. Both Willing to admit mormons and Christian are not the same.
Read the Bible as a child and you will see. The word of God is alive and active and sharper then any two edge sword.
As an ex Mormon I keep hearing this LDS Bishop talk about feelings a lot!!
That is because he doesn't have and know the true and only God of the Bible
What, in your opinion Donald, are the proper ways for God to communicate with us if not at least partially through our feelings?
@@proudtoshootpentax What if we don't "feel," wholly or partially? What if I don't feel like I'm saved, does that mean I'm not? What if I don't "feel," like I love my wife, does that mean I don't? I do want my feelings to match reality, but the fact is things change my feelings all the time, and they don't match reality. We trust in the promises of God, even when our feelings are not present. BTW: I appreciate the conversation.
@@jeffdowns1038 I guess my question would be in what ways do you believe the Holy Spirit communicates with us? To me, there’s been a very clear difference between the internal feelings that I have, and the outside influence of the Holy Spirit. Matt 16:17, John 14:26, Acts 1:8, John 15:26, Rev 19:10 - and I could go on - if not through feelings how do you believe that communication scripture talks about takes place?
@@Imtryingtobelikejesus-m1m The Bible is logical and does not contradict. I have tried to find any contradictions and none hold any weight without seriously trying to misinterpret what they say. You obviously do not know the One True God if you speak that lowly of His revealed word.
There so much uncertainty and dissimilar beliefs within Mormonism. The individual has the ability to believe whatever they think feels true for themselves.
Great conversation, thank you Aaron and Scott!
Can you please have another discussion with Bob vukich. He is really great to listen to
It's cool to see intellectual humility, intellectual tenacity, intellectual carefulness, intellectual courage put on display. For those of us carrying around a big dictionary of beliefs--seeing these intellectual virtues (see Phillip Dow, Virtuous Minds) modeled here is useful.
I will be praying for strength for Scott’s family and healing for Scott’s son during his battle with cancer.
Be on the look out at porter park Rexburg Idaho! Evangelism is slowly taking roots ! Great conversations are being had
What time do you plan to be there?
I love the friendly manner in which you both discuss the similarities and differences. Thank you.
1:05:30 the hymn, A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief, was written by W.W. Phelps, who was a member of the Latter Day Saint faith. The tune is Scottish. I don’t think the hymn has any heresy in it. It seems to be based on what Jesus said to the sheep on His right hand, “inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”
There are historical Christian hymns in the lds hymnal, however, the LDS have changed many of the verses and have removed original verses so it meets the approval of their leaders to be admitted in their hymnal. Amazing Grace did not make the cut. Question for the LDS: Why does the hymn Amazing Grace not appear in your hymn book? What parts of that hymn conflict with your beliefs?
1:49:00 Luke 14:26 (NASB95)
“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
Thanks for pointing out Luke 14:26.
1:49:00 “If you love mother for father more than me you are not worthy of me”
And then he says “I think it’s important that he didn’t say husband/wife”
I wish you would of rebuked him here
You cannot love your spouse equal to God or anywhere close
The verse also doesn’t mention pets or materials, but that’s a given, just like husband/wife
It doesn’t need to mention everything, the point is that God needs to be loved more than anything else
I call it the “Elder Holland Heresy”
The idea that you can love your wife equal to or about equal to God
Aaron has a great anti-Holland video on this
Yeah, that caught me off guard.
(Update: see Scott’s follow-up and my second comment below)
@@AaronShafovaloff1 If you meet with him again, could you bring it up to him?
Hi Eric. I don’t think God means that we love a spouse more than we love him - but I do believe there’s an implication that the marriage relationship shouldn’t be broken because a spouse doesn’t believe if the marriage can otherwise be continued. If we’re unwilling to lose family relationships to pursue the gospel we’re not worthy of Christ - and even marriage sometimes can’t continue to follow Christ - but when possible I think it’s important to try unless there’s abuse taking place.
After thinking more about it (and talking with my wife about it, ironically), in context I think this is exactly what I think Scott meant-that marriage should be continued/protected if at all possible.
There is some background of LDS theology of family that complicates things (and that raises issues of idolizing the family), but after thinking about the context of Scott’s remark, and also seeing his follow-up, I think we should take his remarks at face-value. In Scott’s view, Jesus didn’t mention one’s spouse in this passage (at least in Matthew) out of concern for marriages being preserved even when conversion happens and the marriage becomes a mixed-faith marriage.
There is only one God. There are many different definitions of Him. There is one way to Him that is through Christ.
But we've been told don't pray to heavenly mother.....
Aaron this is definitely a different tone than I am used to. You did a debate with Kwaku El and that was firey. I will watch the rest of this conversation but I get so frustrated with the members of the Church when they have no clarity when asked about the nature of God. If you are interested I would love to have an open discussion with you, on the similar questions. I am a convert at the age of 32 and read the bible exclusively, and determined the truth from there.
Happy to dialog.
@@Imtryingtobelikejesus-m1m the universe is one. Let's say that God created the universe, which is not. But just suppose God did, and God is outside of time and space. When one looks into that prism then all the attributes of God are within that sphere. The Father the Son, and the Saintly Spirit. Still a part of the same God but also within that sphere outside of all that exists. Now God created a universe, and the universe depends on order to exist and to build within. I always use the example of water. Water is two parts hydrogen one part oxygen, and affects as it affects. This order has a law, and even God has to obey this order and all others. So therefore the universe and it's laws become God, because when one creates a law, in order for the law to be validated, then one must become submissive to that law
@@AaronShafovaloff1 and how shall we engage.
@@alatterdaysaintonfire5643 Feel free to message me to coordinate.
I hear a lot of i don't knows from the right side of the table
“And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?”
Romans 2:3-4
Mormonism seems to create more questions and answers. I respect for the most part his acceptance that certain things are not clear in the Mormon theology for him. I pray he sees the error it comes to know the true Christ of the scriptures
Respectfully, I think if you were pushed and honest there are aspects of your beliefs you don’t have perfectly clear answers on - particularly on the margins of your beliefs.
@@proudtoshootpentax that’s my thought too. Christians have the same thought stopping tendencies as LDS people do. There’s a lot of questions but only one answer, Christ.
The LDS view does not come from the vein of traditional Christianity, as you know. The LDS view is couched in continual revelation, and for that reason no theological point is ever finalized. It continues to evolve. Many Christians will point to this as a weakness in theology or doctrine, but from the LDS view it's actually a strength because there's no need to rely on an interpretation of scripture when one can go directly to the source.
@@clarketube1 perfectly stated. True revelation should always trump interpretation, and tradition should always yield to truth.
Without recognizing fully what eternity really means then it is hard to be blunt with our answers.
The Easter Bunny 🐰🐰🐰 is just as true as the BOM
More like Easter Sunday
Mormons spent more on a Mall development, than on Humanitarian aid for 20 years!!
he’s a wonderful man
I come away from this video so grateful that there are tons of resources out there for learning how NOT to read the Bible along with all the resources for how TO read the Bible. If there is a God with specific truths and errors to reveal, and if he does reveal himself through the Bible, then the work of learning is one we can dive into along side Him. He can lead and facilitate. We can pray to be emptied of our broken human views and ask God to open our hands and hearts to be filled up with His reality and truth. It's good news.
I think the key question is which resources are the right ones to turn to. Joseph Smith faced that issue when he reported in his history: “for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.”
His answer turned out to be even more simple. As James 1:5-6 directed he asked God for truth.
Have you read the Bible? rev. 22 says "I am the first and the last."
Does Anyone of you can explain what is A Bishop to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
A bishop is the leader of a single, local congregation.
It's the leader of a congregation, like a pastor or priest in other faiths. Big difference may be Bishops in LDS church also have full-time profession outside of church.
@Jin Kazama I believe you are LDS from the Philippines, correct? What do you call the leader of your congregation?
He keeps saying “ main stream Christianity “ as if he or LDS is a sect of Christianity. It’s not!
Lol fax
Yeah, there you go. You’re so much more Christian than him. What is wrong with this ministry. Trying to prove how much more Christian you are than others is not even a Christian thing. He just said believe. Why do y’all lack faith?
I call it the “Easter Bunny” branch of Christianity
It’s a Hare-I-See
@@EricSmyth2Christ Good job bud. You've got the crowd laughing with that one.
@@Sayheybrother8 Why do you assume this correct statement is coming from someone whose attempting to prove how Christian they are. There is no evidence for this slander.
Mormons - do not invoke Catholic martyrs for your idol.
LDS members always describe their mission in the same exact words. It's all about "good experiences" at the end of the day.
Experiences meaning spiritual experiences, personal conversion, miracles witnessed, and an increased love of God and man. As a mother of 4 returned missionaries, these experiences are the only ones my sons reference on a regular basis.
The experiences on my mission taught me so much about humanity, the power of obedience to God, the recognition of the Holy Spirit, the ability to love my fellow man, and most importantly brought me closer than I’d ever previously been to God. It was truly a blessing from God to have such diverse and powerful experiences.
I really don't care for these theological nit picking. It all boils down to how being a disciple of Jesus Christ makes you a better person. Does it bring hope and peace to your heart? Do you show love for Him by loving and caring for your fellow man? Yes, I am LDS.
The difference is, who Is Jesus; and how can we be reconciled to God? LDS and biblical Christianity say the same Name, but are defined quite differently. Same with the gospel. A gospel/Jesus different than what the apostles preached is a false gospel they warn
If there is a royal line and a second tier god class how can they be of one purpose and co-equal?
So many Mormon contradictions in this conversation.
How come you guys are not using the Bible to determine What God has already spoken? Doctrine and beliefs do matter.
LDS is simply post-modern - as are protestants
If you are a monotheist, you aren’t a Mormon. It’s really that simple.
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that non-baptized Christians will inherit a glorious kingdom and enjoy communion with Christ. Unrepentant individuals will inherit a worldly kingdom, in which the Holy Ghost can have influence, but where Christ is not found. The highest kingdom is where believers and followers of Christ, baptized into His church and receiving the remission of sins, by proper priesthood authority, can dwell permanently with Christ and God the Father.
Do you believe "non-baptized Christians" (according to LDS standards) presently have remission of sins?
@@AaronShafovaloff1 this is such an interesting topic and I must admit I had never pieced it out before, so thank you for a good study topic that I am sure I have just barely scratched. I always assumed that everyone who sincerely repents receives a remission of their sins. After all, both the Bible and the Book of Mormon have scriptures indicating that. For example, Acts 10:43 says: “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”Mosiah 3:13 says: “And the Lord God hath sent his holy prophets among all the children of men, to declare these things to every kindred, nation, and tongue, that thereby whosoever should believe that Christ should come, the same might receive a remission of their sins, and rejoice with exceedingly great joy, even as though he had already come among them.”
However, earlier in Acts, (2:38), Luke says, “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” John the Baptist also baptized for remission of sins. Luke 3:3: “And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
Why must we be baptized to receive full forgiveness? Ezekiel 18:21-22 makes it clear that we must keep the commandments to fully repent: “But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.” Moroni 8:25 in the Book of Mormon confirms this: “And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;”
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that baptism is a commandment and a covenant. It is one necessary step to receive full forgiveness and entrance into God’s kingdom. Further, it must be done by the power of proper priesthood authority to be fully complete. I found this summary on our church website: “Forgiveness for wrongdoing is upon condition of repentance. Remission of sins is made possible by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. A person obtains a remission of his sins if he has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, receives the ordinances of baptism and laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, and obeys God’s commandments.” Mosiah 4:11-12 and 26 adds that we must obey the commandments and care for the poor to retain a remission of our sins.
Finally, to answer your question more succinctly, Christ Himself said in our Doctrine in Covenants, 84:64 and 74:
64 “Therefore, as I said unto mine apostles I say unto you again, that every soul who believeth on your words, and is baptized by water for the remission of sins, shall receive the Holy Ghost.
74 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am.”
Where are Christ and the Father? In the Celestial Kingdom. While “damned” is a harsh word, to us it means any place that is not with both the Father and the Son. As I said before, good people (including those who have repented partially but not fully through proper priesthood ordinances, as well as some baptized individuals who do not keep their covenants) can inherit a kingdom where they can enjoy Christ’s presence but not the fullness of the Father.
I have also met many Christians (I’m using the broader definition of all those who follow Christ) who clearly have the Holy Spirit influencing their lives, so obviously there is nuance throughout the scriptures, and we are meant to study, ponder and pray about these things. I believe in a God who is not bound by our expectations of Him, but who is bound by righteousness, or He would cease to be God. I am not so arrogant as to think there are things of the Kingdom that have not been revealed, or things that I do not know about God’s amazing grace and eternal plan for His children.
Common grace was condemned in the synod of Kalamazoo in 1924. It’s a common heresy, taught these days by many claiming to be reformed, that implies human free will and therefore justification by faith and works. The sun shines and it rains on the elect and the reprobate, all things work for the good of the elect and all things work together for the damnation of the reprobate. All things are from God, even the evil things, not just the good, true and beautiful. No man has free will, ONLY God has free will. All things are predetermined by God, absolutely whatsoever comes to pass. He’s not giving good things to the reprobate hoping they will just use their free will to be saved. The good things harden the reprobate and prepare them for the day of slaughter.
“Righteous art thou, O LORD, when I plead with thee: yet let me talk with thee of thy judgments: Wherefore doth the way of the wicked prosper? wherefore are all they happy that deal very treacherously? Thou hast planted them, yea, they have taken root: they grow, yea, they bring forth fruit: thou art near in their mouth, and far from their reins. But thou, O LORD, knowest me: thou hast seen me, and tried mine heart toward thee: pull them out like sheep for the slaughter, and prepare them for the day of slaughter.”
Jeremiah 12:1-3
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”
Isaiah 45:7
“Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?”
Amos 3:6
“Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.”
James 5:5
“An high look, and a proud heart, And the plowing of the wicked, is sin.”
Proverbs 21:4
All the things the reprobate do are sin.
There is no common grace, there is no human free will, all things are predetermined by God. There are only elect and reprobate, the elect believe the Gospel, which is given them by God, the reprobate do not. The Gospel in its strict, narrow, and saving sense is the doctrine of justification by faith alone. All other gospels are damning false gospels of the reprobates and papist whores! Idolaters and sons of the Devil. Of whom God works to prepare them for the place that’s been prepared by God for the Devil and his angels.
It’s a real shame when someone claiming to be Protestant agrees with a Bishop in the LDS church on the interpretation of Mathew 7:21-23
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
Matthew 7:21-23
These men are crying out “Lord, Lord.” These men are men who are VERY active in the visible church, have we not prophesied and preached in your name, have we not cast out demons in your name, have we not done many wonderful works in thy name?? They appeal to what THEY have done, not what Christ did freely for them who of themselves are wholly undeserving and ill-deserving! What’s more is the Christ prophesies that not a few, not some, but MANY will do this on judgement day when ALL people will be judge privately and individually. Your pastor is not going to be there, nor your bishop, your mother, your father, nor a lawyer. You will be standing face to face with Christ and he will ask of you to give an account, and if you appeal like MANY people and say haven’t I gone to church every Sunday, haven’t I preached and led crusades in your name, haven’t I saved thousands, wasn’t I the Pope, the vicar of Christ? He will say to you depart I NEVER knew you, not I once knew you and you failed the test, not I once knew you but you didn’t repent of that sin we both know you should have, no He will certainly say, so sure we can speak of it as in the past, “I NEVER knew you.” Then He says “depart from me you workers of lawlessness.” How can that be? Using the Law for justification before God is an ILLEGAL use of the Law. The Law was never given for us to justify ourselves with. It was only given to show us or sin and point us to our savior. Good works are NOT necessary for our justification or salvation. They are the fruits of it but they are not necessary to produce justification or salvation. We are justified, we are declared righteous, we are saved by faith alone, apart from works!
“So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.”
Luke 17:10
It doesn’t matter if you know Jesus, or how much you love Him or other people. What matters is that He knows you. How do you know if He loves you? Do you believe His glorious Gospel, that belief, that faith, is not the grounds for our justification because it is not ours but the gift of the Holy Ghost. The life and death, the active and passive obedience of Christ His atonement for our sins, His perfect sinless life, is the only grounds for our justification which is a one time, legal and forensic act on God’s part where he declares us righteous in His sight, not for our sake, but for Christ’s sake alone. What He did freely for us. The test,to God, isn’t do you love God and obey His commandments, the test, He sees into our hearts and can see clearly if we believe His Gospel, but we cannot. So the test for us, James 2, is a credible profession of faith, along with obeying the commandments. James and Paul do not contradict at all, not even a little. Learn the biblical distinction between the Law and Gospel, learn the doctrine of Justification by faith alone, Sola Fide. God’s Word is propositional and it’s systematic, all the parts fit together into a logically consistent whole. Christ is the Logos, He’s logical, not insane!
I just have to add that not only ALL the reprobate do is sin but also ALL the elect do is sin. We are ALL in our flesh sinful.
“But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.”
Isaiah 64:6
All our righteousnesses, NOT all our unrighteousnesses, all of those are obviously sinful.
We in our flesh are nothing but evil. It takes God’s Spirit working in us, by Word and Spirit, to cause us to believe the Gospel and then also work in us those good works he has predetermined to be done in us through the power and work of God, not men.
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
Ephesians 2:8-10
“in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:”
Ephesians 1:11
"If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!" (Matthew 7:11)
@@AaronShafovaloff1 is Jesus calling the evil men good men? Or is He calling the gifts that they evilly give good? Are you trying to prove the heresy of common grace with this verse?
@@AaronShafovaloff1 or are you attempting to prove the heresy of free will?
@@AaronShafovaloff1 Matthew 7:21-23 teaches the doctrine of justification by faith alone and the doctrine of private individual judgement. NOT justification by faith and works, like the Papist whore Roman Catholic Church and LDS church teach! How do you not know this???! Do you not believe in Sola Fide? If so, why are you calling yourself a Protestant? Do you not realize that the Roman Church and LDS both agree with you, Matthew 7:11 teaches human free will, that men are not totally depraved, and God gives grace commonly to everyone. More like common heresy!
Aaron Shafovaloff: Are you saying that exaltation is a Mormon-only principle of the Gospel? How do you explain the following:
1 Peter 5:6 (AKJV) “Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: 7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.”
2 Corinthians 11:7 (AKJV) “Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?"
Luke 14:11 (AKJV) “For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."
Exaltation is a Biblical principle when Biblically defined. The New Testament even says believers will be glorified (Romans 8:30).
Jesus says, "The righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father" (Matthew 13:43). Incredible!
The key question is whether believers will ever be able to demand worship from others, or think of themselves as equal to God, or being the ultimate source of ourselves.
Paul writes, "What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?" (1 Corinthians 4:7)
God alone can boast of having what he did not receive. God alone has the glory of being self-sufficient, self-existent, "a se" (of himself), infinite, and immutable.
The rest of us are dependent, contingent, owing what are to God, finite, composite, and mutable. So our glorification and exaltation will be proper and consistent to our condition as creatures.
God, the Creator, ultimately exalts and glorifies himself. All things are from him, through him, and to him, so he gets all the glory (Romans 11:36).
Any glory we experience is "from another", gifted by another, and reflects another. Even our exaltation and glorification is ultimately a reflection of the infinite glory that God has always had in himself and of himself.
Aaron Shafovaloff: “The key question is whether believers will ever be able to demand worship from others, or think of themselves as equal to God, or being the ultimate source of ourselves.” Pearl of Great Price/Articles of Faith 1:1 “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” We believe God the Father is eternally the Father. Doctrine & Covenants 132:20 “Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.” This is the final state of those who are exalted according to Joseph Smith, Jr. This is consistent with the Bible. Psalm 82:6 (AKJV) “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. John 10:34 (AKJV) “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?”
@@dleoburns David, do you believe Psalm 82 is about the exaltation or condemnation of such gods?
Aaron Shafovaloff: “David Burns David, do you believe Psalm 82 is about the exaltation or condemnation of such gods?”
Psalm 82:1 (AKJV) “God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.” It is about the judgment of the gods.
Psalm 82:6 (AKJV) “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. It identifies who the gods are. We are the children of the most High. Hebrews 12:9 (AKJV) “Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?”
John 10:34 (AKJV) “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” Jesus Christ verified Psalm 82:6. He will judge us in the end at the final judgment and determine the glory to which we will be resurrected.
@@dleoburns Right. Hence, it's not a good passage to talk about human potential to exaltation - as though achieving equality with what God is now.
What a squishy Mormon. Out loud they are walking back all their weird doctrines. But they still think it’s the only true church with all its trappings that you have to perform. Or else.
Heavenly Father would have been sinless just as Christ was sinless. He was the Savior and showed Christ how to be our Savior. Christ said I do nothing but what I see the Father do. Saying as man is God once was is simply saying he took on Flesh just as Christ was as man is at one time. As God is man may become through Christ we can be perfect even as our Father is perfect.
As a latter-day saint, I love these conversations. Our differences aren’t with the Bible itself-we believe in all the same verses-we just have a disagreement over how to interpret them. From what I understand, most traditional Christian interpretations were developed centuries after Christ and His apostles were long gone.
Regarding multiple gods: this is consistent with the Bible if you understand that God reveals things about Himself a little at a time according to the needs of who He is speaking to.
An analogy: you have a father. He has always been your father and always will be your father. The fact that other fathers exist doesn’t change that. Even though he was also once a child, he was always going to be your father.
This is even more true for God. Since time exists for man but not for God, it’s true that He was always God and will always be God, even if He lived on an earth at one time.
I’m happy to discuss any of these things.
Do you believe God himself had a spirit father, that God had a God? This is what I meant by "heavenly grandfather" or "ancestor deities" in the video.
Do you think the early Christians would have tolerated a belief in a regression of gods-prior (and relationally superior) ancestor gods to our God?
@@AaronShafovaloff1 I do. Because it doesn’t change anything about who He is or our relationship to Him.
If Christ being a son doesn’t diminish His divinity, why wouldn’t that also be true for the Father? It doesn’t change anything about His power or His relationship to us.
There’s evidence of various doctrines in LDS theology that were believed by early christians. I don’t think this is one of them, but you never know.
It seems that God’s pattern throughout the Bible is to reveal a bit about Himself through chosen servants. Then after people lose the gift of prophecy they replace it with their own philosophy. So God has to call a new prophet (or send His Son) to cut through the traditions that developed on top of the scriptures so that what God was trying to teach us becomes clearer.
You actually see this start to happen in the New Testament. The epistles are the apostles correcting false ideas that already started to creep into the church after Christ left. I don’t believe that problem stopped when the apostles died; it likely got worse.
@@AaronShafovaloff1 One clarification: I don’t believe anyone is superior to God. God is the ultimate power, benevolence, judgment, omniscience…etc.
Just like you are the head of your household. Your father doesn’t have any authority over your family, and you only add to his joy.
Some more well read Mormons benefit in my mind from Christianity's lack of engagement with near eastern ideas of the divine council or the heirarchy of the heavenly host within and outside the bible, these ideas are not friendly to Mormon theology and not enemy to new testament theology, this topic doesn't get pinned down enough when a Mormon appeals to it as if it lends credibility to Joseph smith's claims.
Isaiah 9: 6 And His name will be called Wondeful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince and of Peace, Of the increase of His governmental peace there will be no end. The Mormon religion is contrary to the bible. There is ONE God, according to Isaiah 44:6 I am the First and I am the Last. 44:6 And there is no other God. John 1:1 In the beginning there was the WORD AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD and the WORD WAS GOD. The Mormon religion needs to change their identity to something else other than Christianity. God is NOT an exalted man!! John 4:24 God is spirit. Acts 10:38 Now God annoited Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, God was with Him, this demonstrates the Trinity of God, so many more examples throughout the bible. Gods word has the Authority and the Power, it is proven and tested throughout centuries, nothing can compare to the WORD of God. God is the Author!
Amen
Where is the trinity theory put forward in scripture? Which book, chapter or verse teaches one God in three persons? What verse mentions the words "coeternal" "coessential" or "coequal?" Where is hypostatic union, eternal generation or one substance? God is not a trinity.God never tells us he is a trinity. The Hebrew words for God: Adonai, Yahweh, Elohim never mean a trinity. God is: "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." A Father is an individual, not a trinity. The words: I, me, he, him, single personal pronouns are used of God about 20k times in the Bible. Jesus told us the greatest commandment is: "Hear Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29) God is never referred to as a trinity.
You didn't listen to the video well enough...clearly you don't understand the LDS view.
Shared belief at 5:32. Aaron says he is looking for a common confessional among other Christians. He would be surprised among 30,000 denominations of Christianity that concept probably differs greatly from his ideal of a "common confessional". The one idea is progressive Christianity. Many Christian denominations do allow for people to reject a divine Jesus as son of God. Jesus is more a historical Jesus at best. Some progressives also reject the resurrection, what Jesus dying meant for the rest of us, and inconvenient truths we learn in the Bible. He references Jehovah's Witnesses, but there are many differences in other mainstream denominations.
Using progressives as an example is pretty bad however considering they wouldn't actually meet even the neutral definition of a Christian.
The examples I would use is something like the RCC vs Baptist.
Scott, you wrote, "Many Christian denominations do allow for people to reject a divine Jesus as son of God."
We would not consider such denominations to be genuinely Christian.
"I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins." (John 8:24)
@@AaronShafovaloff1 I don't think those progressives are Christian. The core has to be Jesus Christ is the son of God. But there are liberal denominations now. With some strange ideas. I also think some of the mega churches differ in core beliefs about Christianity (think of Hill Song or Joel Osteen). I know in Judaism they decided 1000 years ago a person can be Jewish and not believe in God. I don't get the logic of that. Why have a religion then? Doesn't anyone ever read John 3:16-18 anymore?
@@AaronShafovaloff1 great interview! Enjoy your videos, they've helped me in evangelizing to mormons. God bless!
A Christian is simply someone who has put all their hope and faith in Jesus Christ to save them.
This is independent of any other doctrinal beliefs.
If not, then you elevate the learned above the unlearned.
Mormons: How can Jesus be both eternal and created? Just totally incoherent.
I am LDS. I do not like how Scott Adams set up the LDS church as rising or falling with the Book of Mormon. He should have couched the question in revelation (not BOM)...the LDS church rises or falls with true revelation (the BOM is only one example of items we'd point to as new revelation), but I don't think the LDS church rises or falls on the BOM alone, it does rise or fall on true and new revelations that come/came from God. I do like how he described the Godhead as One, which is absolutely an LDS belief. The Christians often purposely try to confuse and contort the LDS view here by pointing additional and other Gods - what they need to realize is two things (1) such past statements from leaders do not represent current approved doctrine, (2) such statements are speculative, and relate to the Bible's teaching that mankind can progress eternally. So, LDS call themselves monotheist and reaffirm the Bible's teaching of the man's progression and entering into the rest of God or becoming one with God as the bible teaches Mic drop.
I just think the Book of Mormon encapsulates the difference between continuing revelation and a closed canon. It is the proof of the restoration in the same way Jesus’ body is proof of the resurrection, and as Joseph Smith taught, it’s the keystone of our religion.
@@proudtoshootpentax, I interpret Joseph Smith's statement as revelation (not the BOM) as the key stone of our religion, as I said before. The BOM is one example of revelation. In my view this is very important, because if we make the BOM the keystone with it's proposed authenticity and historicity, then church will fall since the book is clearly not historical in a literal sense. Where we can go as a people is we can rely on revelation more broadly. For example, we can point to Christ appearance in the Kirkland temple as His acceptance of the LDS church that began with six men in Palmyra years earlier. Please don't set the LDS Church up to fail by forcing the BOM to be historical...we won't win that fight...most Latter-Day Saints don't know it yet, but that fight has been lost for a couple decades now and it's fruitless.
@@clarketube1 I can respect your opinion - but I absolutely believe the Book of Mormon is a literal historical account, and time will bear that out.
@@proudtoshootpentax, thank you. I'm glad that you can respect my opinion, and I will add here that I have tremendous respect for you, the courage to engage in the conversation on RUclips...awesome! I also really appreciate the spirit you brought to the conversation. Unfortunately, on the flip side, time has already proved that the BOM is not historical. The evidence is simply overwhelming and incontrovertible. Now it's up to us (LDS people and leadership) to adjust our message accordingly. I realize it's a big ask...but it's also the right thing to do. I leave it to you to reexamine the evidence, and ponder and pray for the solution yourself.
@@clarketube1
If the Book of Mormon is not historical as it has been represented to be for the past 200 years, than why should anyone believe any of the LDS claims to divine authority?
Aaron Shafovaloff/Bishop Scott Adams: Isaiah 54:5 (AKJV) “For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.” Jesus Christ is the God of this earth and will continue to be until he rules this earth as King of Kings. 1 Corinthians 15:22 “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”
Jesus Christ was a man. Romans 5:14 (AKJV) “Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.” Genesis 1:26 (AKJV) “¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Humankind including Jesus Christ were created!
“Polytheism: the belief in many gods.” [Britannica Encyclopedia]
Pearl of Great Price/Articles of Faith 1:1 “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”
Heavenly Mother is not found in the doctrine/scripture of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Our doctrine/scripture is canonized as the standard works of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Doctrine & Covenants/Introduction/paragraph 3: “The book of Doctrine and Covenants is one of the standard works of the Church in company with the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Pearl of Great Price.” The text of the LDS English Language Edition of the Bible is the text of the Authorized King James Version of the Holy Bible with footnotes to the other LDS Scriptures.
Pearl of Great Price/Articles of Faith 1:8 “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.” We believe the Authorized King James Version of the Holy Bible is the most accurately translated English Language Version of the Bible.
How are the God, the Eternal Father, His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost one? Hebrews 2:11 (AKJV) “For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified (Holy) are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.”
Doctrine & Covenants 137:7 “Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; 8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom; 9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.”
Degrees of glory: 1 Corinthians 15:40 “There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.”
Salvation: Those saved will not have to endure the lake of fire or second death but will inherit everlasting life. Revelation 20:14 (AKJV) “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
Exaltation: Those who will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9 (AKJV) “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”
I have spent the last 44 years of my life as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Prior to that, a 30-year-member of the Southern Baptist Church. Thank you for allowing me to comment!
David, you wrote, "Heavenly Mother is not found in the doctrine/scripture of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
Do you personally believe her to be real? If she is real, but not canonical, do you think this belongs in a category of teachings of the LDS Church that insiders are encouraged to believe, but outsiders are not permitted to criticize?
Aaron Shafovaloff: “David, you wrote, "Heavenly Mother is not found in the doctrine/scripture of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." Yes, I did make that statement. “Do you personally believe her to be real?” I do not possess that knowledge by way of personal revelation or the doctrine/scripture of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I respect the personal revelation of those who do! Our doctrine/scripture of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Standard Works of that Church.
Doctrine & Covenants/Introduction/paragraph 3: “The book of Doctrine and Covenants is one of the standard works of the Church in company with the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Pearl of Great Price.”
The Bible we use is the Authorized King James Version of the Holy Bible which I used for thirty years as a Southern Baptist.
Revelation is by common consent. Doctrine & Covenants 28:13 “For all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith.”
“Dallin H. Oaks explains: "Revelations from God ... are not constant. We believe in continuing revelation, not continuous revelation. We are often left to work out problems without the dictation or specific direction of the Spirit."[14] Thus, the current prophet can clarify, correct or change any previous teachings.[15]
However, once a doctrine has been accepted by the church by "common consent", it becomes part of the standard works, and then takes precedence over any other revelation.[16] Members of the LDS church only consider themselves bound by doctrine found in the standard works.[17]” [Wikipedia/ Revelation in Mormonism/Inspired vs. infallible]
I have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for 44 years.
@@dleoburns "I have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for 44 years" I'm not sure expressing the duration of time being part of an organization has any qualification on your salvation or your righteousness. Anyone can call on the name of Jesus for salvation and have eternal life even moments before their time on earth is over. We don't need anything but the free gift of grace to receive salvation and that decision doesn't require many years to achieve that.
You wrote: _" However, once a doctrine has been accepted by the church by "common consent", it becomes part of the standard works, and then takes precedence over any other revelation"_ This means that there are many changes in ideas over time, for example, the concept of polygamy which changed in 1890, the concept of accepting those that are Black since 1981 as just two examples. If we accept the concept that God changes His mind over time, then He doesn't fit the model of Moroni 8:18 "For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity"
Only a false god like Baal, Asherah, Dagon, Marduk, and Moloch would change their mind because the men in charge of these false gods are really in control.
George Bauerschmidt: "I have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for 44 years" I'm not sure expressing the duration of time being part of an organization has any qualification on your salvation or your righteousness.” 1 Peter 5:5 (AKJV) “Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.”
We members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints seek exaltation which is eternal life. 1 Peter 5:6 (AKJV) “Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: 7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.” 1 John 1:1 (AKJV) “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.” 1 Corinthians 6:9 (AKJV) “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.” One who inherits the kingdom of God must be washed (baptized), sanctified (cleansed), and justified (reconciled).
Salvation means one is saved from the lake of fire and the second death. Revelation 20:14 (AKJV) “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” Each resurrected saved person will inherit everlasting life in a kingdom of glory. 1 Corinthians 15:40 (AKJV) “There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.
“This means that there are many changes in ideas over time, for example, the concept of polygamy which changed in 1890, the concept of accepting those that are Black since 1981 as just two examples.” There is no doctrine/scripture in the Standard Works of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that prohibited blacks from membership or the priesthood. Our complete doctrine/scripture is found in the Standard Works. Doctrine & Covenants/Introduction/Third paragraph: “The book of Doctrine and Covenants is one of the standard works of the Church in company with the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Pearl of Great Price.” The Supreme Court ruled against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doctrine of plural wives (polygyny) in the late 1800s.
“Only a false god like Baal, Asherah, Dagon, Marduk, and Moloch would change their mind because the men in charge of these false gods are really in control.” You need to read the Book of Jonah! Jonah 3:1 (AKJV) “And the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the second time, saying, 2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. 3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days’ journey. 4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day’s journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. 10 ¶ And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.”
@@dleoburns Unless I misunderstood you, you didn't seem to directly answer the question, "Do you personally believe her to be real?"
The conversation about baptism was okay, but he cowardly answered the question. It is true that until we are adopted into the Kingdom of God we cannot receive the blessing of the atonement. He God when enter into the Waters of baptism receives us as His son or daughter and when we receive the Saintly Spirit we are recovering God as our personal mentor, savior and Father.
After rewatching the debate I better understood the question - in the sense of having the remission of our sins to enter God’s kingdom that happens only after baptism by those with priesthood authority.
That said, I believe God can give an assurance of an extension of his Grace even before baptism takes place - and I think that’s evident in the lives and experiences of Christians who have described such assurances coming from God.
Aaron Shafovaloff: Reply to You Tube Short/LDS Exaltation vs Christian Incarnation.
1 Peter 5:6 (AKJV) “Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: 7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.” I would submit to you that exaltation is a Christian principle and not just an LDS principle.
1 John 4:2 (AKJV) “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.” We members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints accept the Bible as doctrine/scripture as part of our Standard Works. Doctrine & Covenants/Introduction/paragraph 3: “The book of Doctrine and Covenants is one of the standard works of the Church in company with the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Pearl of Great Price.” Yes, we agree that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.
"As a result of exaltation, men become most high Gods." Please show us that doctrine/scripture that declares your accusation. I have given you what Joseph Smith, Jr. taught about the final state of those exalted. Doctrine & Covenants 132:20 “Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.” This is consistent with the Bible. Psalm 82:6 (AKJV) “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. John 10:34 (AKJV) “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?”
Proof texting is such an issue that we all need to stop doing. Every idea in the scriptures has a contradictory reference. Except, the most important one, Jesus is the way and only way. All this other stuff is just fan fiction battling. Just agree we believe we have a redeemer and He is our only chance.
This comment is complete nonsense. We need to be able to back up what we believe elsewise who's to know if we are making it up?
@@noneofyourbusiness7965 you know someone is making something up when you can proof text another scripture from the same “infallible” book that contradicts the scripture you’re using to tell someone what they are suppose to do
Amen Brother! He's going to come and gather us in, and we shall be his Flock.
In the meantime repent, love, testify of him and repeat.
12:37 That's very intetesting when the Mormon bishop says that God the Father is also a Heavenly Mother. I'm not a Mormon but it must be true? God created man in his image, as a man and a woman, but still we think of him exclusively as a man, why? In God there must be both? Or maybe no gender at all that God is a Spirit? So which version is the truth?
There is no need for additional false books ( Book of Mormon, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price) . They are not needed because Christ forfilled it on the cross. No need of temples and false prophets. Christ and the Holy Bible is all wr need.
“A Bible, a Bible we already have a Bible.” Interesting that Christians around the world can’t even agree on the most simplest things ie. baptism. The Book of Mormon teaches the exact same Gospel of Jesus Christ. And before you proof text the …after all we can do text remember James taught that faith without works is dead. Same gospel.
Does your god save those who never heard of Christ in morality?
You've overvalued the Bible, and by doing so you've undervalued the revelation of Jesus Christ. Thus, your religion is vain.
In the beginning of the Mormon church, the preaching was not with the Christian faith. Your Book of Mormon was copied from the Christian Bible. Your Church Leader changed their beliefs so many times. Your church doctrine change every time you have a new Leader.
True. But all if that us actually the strength of the LDS Church because it relies upon revelation, as did the early/primitive Christian church...because most of Christianity today doesn't rely on revelation, they have actually departed from the gospel Jesus taught. So, as you now see, you've actually pointed to the greatest philosophical strength of the LDS Church and unsuccessfully called it a weakness.
Auvai, I think the belief that Joseph Smith’s beliefs evolved over time and that he later rejected things he taught early on is a common belief among people who don’t believe he’s a prophet - but imo, a closer look into his teachings from beginning to end shows a pretty cohesive doctrine that has very strong ties from beginning to end.
@@clarketube1 you wrote: _"actually the strength of the LDS Church because it relies upon revelation"_
I'm not sure how changes reveal strength? Knowing that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8) holds so much stability and the Bible can't be changed which means what I believe as a child is the same as in my elderly years. I can only imagine the difficult time in 1890 for those that had to suddenly stop practicing polygamy or those in 1981 that had to suddenly accept the black person equally. I know evidence of those that didn't accept that having been taught something so different in their youth.
I don't see Doctrine 2.0, Doctrine 3.0, or Doctrine 4.0 as a benefit.
You wrote: _"they have actually departed from the gospel Jesus taught"_
That is your interpretation based on what your organization teaches. Galatians 1:8 makes it clear that if someone teaches a different gospel, they are cursed. How can we depart from a gospel that can be read in the Bible?
You actually pointed to the greatest philosophical weakness of the LDS Church and unsuccessfully called it a strength.
Oh please...Jesus was Jewish Christianity is so...ok Mormon God not 🚫 inclusive...p
More anti Mormon dribble
You say the idea that we don’t know exactly who or what God is . oh brother you’re wrong. Aaron can give you a list of things God is and what he isn’t. That’s his forte. Telling people they don’t profess on Christ using right words.
I think scripture gives us a pretty good idea of what God is and isn’t, and in spite of my understanding of God I think what he has revealed is as important as what he hasn’t. What we know from scripture and prophetic teaching is what matters most.
@@proudtoshootpentax there’s thousands of different Christian religions that don’t necessarily agree with one another that it’s that clear.
Thank you for demonstrating how ridiculous this whole religion thing is. We have made a mockery of what Christ did for ALL of us. I’ve been following you for a while Aaron but this sounded like two people talking abougg TV which movie is better Star Wars or Star Trek.
Clearly Star Trek. Of this there really can’t be any dispute…
Why do evangelicals always focus on this idea of a “head God.” Mormons never say anything like that. We pray to a Heavenly Father in the name of our Savior and redeemer Jesus Christ who is one with God and the Holy Ghost. You guys are too focused on what God is made up of. Way more than Joseph Smith was even focused on it. He made one comment in a talk about it and y’all can’t get over it. Composite, a part, finite, infinite, oneness, uniqueness, true essentially, very nature, always has been? These are all just things the adversary uses to separate Christians. Aaron, I respect you but your ministry is like being a mole within Christianity to destroy it from within so that we are weaker as a whole to battle the world.
Funny how the guy who dedicated his life to anti Mormonism because he was rejected by the stake president’s daughter in highschool is so adamant about evangelicals not being allowed to date Saints
I am honored to be the subject of LDS folklore embellishments.
@@AaronShafovaloff1 I had no idea! 😂😂😂
I think Aaron’s convictions run a little deeper…
Aaron, your dogma is so thick you can’t even share the gospel without using the same words over and over and using words others have preached you use to describe your faith. Why can’t a person be totally and completely dependent on their Savior Jesus Christ and have faith He lives? Why do you have to use all those fancy dogma driven words to “show” faithfulness and how righteous (works) you are? If it isn’t works driven it isn’t word driven either but that’s all you’ve said for the last hour. Is that Mormons say they believe in Christ using the wrong words then you recite those special fancy words to condemn LDS folks.
Hi, Anthony. As a Christian I aim to maximize my Christian dogma. I want to be as deep and convictional as I can about what the Bible teaches, and use a common historic vocabulary if possible with other Christians to express those beliefs. The words only matter in this case because the meaning matters. To worship a God that never learned, never achieved his godhood, always was God, and is the Most High is essential to the Christian faith.
I also want to communicate all this in a way that makes sense (in cultural context) to my Mormon neighbors.
@@AaronShafovaloff1 I hear you but your use of manufactured and loaded words distract from your true feelings. An example: can I say I believe God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are one and mean it without framing this belief using more dogmatic words to convey my testimony? What if I refuse to do it? Does that make me an apostate?
UNCLE JESUS. If Jesus is God, than the children of his brothers and sisters could rightly say that their uncle is God. And their descendants to this day could say their great, great uncle X10 was God. This is what trinitarianism leads to, utter nonsense.
That had no relevance whatsoever nor was it consistent nor did it give any thought to the real doctrine of the Trinity. You’ve gotta learn before you can speak 🗣
@@reyleon2602 The trinity says Jesus is God. The children of Jesus's brothers and sisters can say their uncle is God. Trinitarians deny this because they don't like it, even though it must be true. Explain to us all how it is not true.
@@elimason7954 When you write: _"The children of Jesus's brothers and sisters can say their uncle is God"_ that doesn't make any sense. I would never say that my uncle is God because my uncle is not God. Your example has nothing to do with the Trinity.
The Book of Mormon and D&C actually teach the Trinity.
Look up 2 Nephi 31:21 which reveals that GOD was one and eternal.....
_"And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, _*_which is one God,_*_ without end. Amen."_ (2 Nephi 31:21)
_"And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it is given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, _*_which are one God,_*_ in a state of happiness which hath no end"_ (Mormon 7:7)
_"And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost _*_are one;_*_ and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and _*_the Father and I are one._*_ "_ (3 Nephi 11:27)
_"Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, _*_which is one Eternal God,_*_ to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil."_ (Alma 11:44)
_"Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are _*_one God, infinite and eternal,_*_ without end. Amen."_ (D&C 20:28)
@@georgebauerschmidt5289 One of Jesus's brothers is James. If Jesus is God, then James could say his brother is God and James's children could say their uncle is God. This is what the trinity leads to, nonsense.
@@elimason7954 Your foolishness is blinding, and blinding you to the truth.