Essentially have you placed the 53 string in place at the nut which has sharpened all the open string notes, then you have dropped them all again to proper pitch. The overall tuning length of the string will be shorter, and the nut becomes a metal nut not bone or plastic . Of Course the guitar will be brighter. You have a metal nut interacting with the fretboard. Also you have standardised all the string heights passing the first fret maybe eliminating any effect of a poorly cut nut in terms of individual string heights which cause some to go 'sharp' when fretted. You do seem to have hit on something.
@@kristopherk5454 Would this be a benefit to just this particular guitar only / Was the first fret to nut distance incorrect and needing shortened or would this be the case for all guitars of this scale length ? I'd like to see this done on more guitars. This may be just one guitar or industry changing ?
Some guitars do have a nut that is too far from the first fret and as a result will never play in tune, but this is an example of “sweetening” the intonation of the guitar. I do think it would be nice to see if this works in more guitars, and does it actually work across the fretboard, not just the chords played in the video.
Hey, I really appreciate this. Equal tempered was a compromise that made everybody unhappy but it saves a lot of work. To be perfectly "in tune" the pitches have to be frequencies of simple ratios such as 3/2, 4/3, etc. because the harmonics of the vibrating strings follow those ratios. Sitars feature moveable frets for this reason, but it gets crazy. : The best solution I've ever heard of is in the piano, where the trios of strings are tuned so the center of the 3 is exactly on equal tempered pitch, then the ones on either side are tuned slightly sharp and slightly flat respectively. So when you hit a chord, the strings that are off ratio ring down pretty quick, but the ones that are on ratio re-energize each other.
This is a really great hack. It's simple and it does a couple of things at the same time, as you have described. It's my opinion that zero frets should be standard on any production instrument. There are so many factors to consider when working with the nut... it can get finicky. This solution is beautiful!
I got my first Earvana nut almost 20 years ago. It really helps the guitar play more in tune - especially close to the nut. I bought some Solo Spacers that let you slide in a little insert to see if the idea would help a particular guitar. For 10-15 bucks you can try it.
If we assume the scale length is 25.5”, all the frets are equal tempered for 25.5”. But the actual scale length is shortened to approx 25.48”. You used a pitchfork to tune the A string (A440Hz I assume). Then used your ears to tune the rest of the strings. Therefore, you were likely using “just intonation” to tune up the guitar. So in essence, you are using a 25.5” scale length equal tempered fretboard layout, but with an actual scale length of approximately 25.48”, and tuned using just intonation. The likely result of this experiment is that your guitar sounds in sweetly in tune with itself using certain chord shapes in certain key signatures. This is great if you only play by yourself as a solo act, and only stick to certain keys and chord shapes. However, there is a HUGE tradeoff: 1) If you play alongside another guitarist, or a pianist, or any other chording instrument you’re going to have tuning problems matching with them. 2) If you start playing music/songs that take you into multiple keys, the tuning and temperament will start to produce out of tune chords. So if you play in a band with only guitar players, you’d have to get all the other guitars to be set up this way, and you’d have to stick to only certain keys to play all your music in. As soon as you add a keyboard player, you’re going to experience matching issues with the tuning, because the piano is equal tempered and for good reason. This is probably a great recording trick to make a specific recorded song sound really good, but it’s very impractical for playing live in a band context. Having said that, it’s a REALLY cool trick that can be very handy in certain situations. It’s quick to do, and easy to undo. Thanks for sharing!
Your comment very helpful and answers my question about what happens up the neck with this tuning. As i had guessed, it kind of desn't work for playing the whole neck, and all the other issues you mention true also. it sure does make a D chord at the nut sound fabulous though, and all the other "open" chords guitar-nich played also. Thanks for your in depth comment.
This is right in theory. But in my experience the influence in the upper regions of the fretboard is so small that you can not hear ist. Or the influence of the way you push the string onto the fret is bigger. (If you put only a little bit more pressure on the string the pitch gets higher).
I did this with my bass guitar using a plastic toothpick to get rid of a slight buzz it had. It worked but then I noticed that it stayed in tune better and sounded better. I kept it that way now for the past 20 years. It still sounds great.
I believe Eddie Van Halen detuned his B string slightly to make the major 3rd of an A chord and it's barre shapes, and then tuned the high E to a 4th from the B. That's why the triads in Running With The Devil sound so great. I notice in the live recordings that he never seems to play all six strings at once, which would show those to be off.
I used Allen keys just the right thickness on 2 guitars . a 3/4 size acoustic and a classical that i wanted to brighten up . Worked like a charm . I 've been playing for almost 50 years. This could have saved me a lot of cash over the years.
Hi, I listened to all of your video and have now tried this tip on 3 previously troublesome guitars. However, I used a piece of an old bass guitar D string (0.60) as I didn't have a thick enough regular guitar string. It works the same. A fretted G on the low E string is now perfectly in tune...and everything else seems much better too. Not sure of the science but this tip does work. I have a Yamaha (APX 4-12A) 12 string electro-acoustic that was a tricky guitar to tune and play...after adding a false zero fret, it now plays in tune and actually feels much easier to play. I really can't understand why but it does work ... Thanks
Good idea, but I did not like the sound of the open strings after I tried this. So I took a file and made the fretboard a bit shorter. Then I could move the nut a bit closer to the first fret. I like the result.
My first fret is quite sharp.. decreasing as you go to higher frets. From the octave and up, becomes very flat. This cheap guitar needs the nut advanced, as the bridge adjusters are as close to the neck as they can go. Thanks for the way to test before modifications. Mahalo! 🐳🍻
@@bubblerings You're welcome! Good luck with your adjustments, and please make sure you use fresh strings that are fully stretched, otherwise you're chasing a ghost.
"... The old man is weak but strength comes from him A smile full of youth, and a gleam in his eye His garden is green and seems overflowing And his dreams await in his rockin' chair sky ..."
As you were inserting that low E string up to the nut, I was thinking that could serve as a good gauge for nut slot depth ... insurance against overcutting. When I played for a living, the band would tune to the organ most of the time and just tune by ear. For my guitars, that worked extremely well. As I began to incorporate alternate tunings, I needed a strobe tuner (Peterson) to facilitate quick tuning between songs. Now, using the modern (and cheaper) tuners we have today, I feel that my guitars are never tuned "perfectly" by those tuners ... they only get me the the right "range". I always have to tweak the final tuning by ear.
Right now, I like my low E a bit flat, (according to the tuner), less so the B, but definitely the E. The B is ok probably cause of the comp saddle, maybe I could do somethin for the E, hmm...
Saw a Leo Kottke vid where he said "my tuner is making suggestions that I'm ignoring". He said it funnier. Me, I'm an intonation freak, so my tuner is often ignored, too.
Amazing little hack - I will try it soon! P.S. regarding possible intonation problems elsewhere: I once chatted with a folk guitarist whose guitar was hacked to sound even sweeter. I asked to try it and played my own stuff it sounded awful and asked him why. He replied that he had set his guitar up to sound sweet within the first five frets - "that's where I live", he said. 🙂
I use the old super glue and baking soda trick. I intonate to the fret board, then see how the nut is doing, and I almost always need to adjust the B or the G.
I've seen so many 'gimmicks' for tuning. THANKS for your EXPERIENCED & simple tip. I will try this for sure. I generally use the Peterson sweetened tunings to great success. THANKS
There's an old Nashville musicians trick of down-tuning the G, B and E strings to compensate for them going sharp when fretted, something like 4, 6 and 3 cents. The idea is that although they are slightly flat, usually one or more of those strings will be fretted. It's a trade-off, of course. I played around with it, but found that getting the nut cut properly created a satisfactory tuning for me.
Here's what James Taylor does. I think it probably helps him a lot where he plays capo'd at 3 often. E string -3 cents B string -6 cents G string -4 cents D string -8 cents A string -10 cents E string -12 cents ruclips.net/video/V2xnXArjPts/видео.html
If the intonation and action are set for it, fretting lightly shouldn’t really bend the notes sharp, and in fact then you have control over that dissonance by fretting more firmly
Steve--using your idea, I just slid a 1.57mm Allen wrench next to my Floyd nut to fix a fretboard gap problem. A "stopgap", but it works to help intonation! . TLDR: replaced factory FR nut on EVH Wolfgang Special ("old" style thru-neck screws), but introduced more than 1/16" gap between end of fretboard due to weird screw holes. Nothing I did narrowed it. Intonating right was impossible. Open strings & lower frets were ultra wrong. Still trying to figure a way to shift nut towards fretboard, but don't want to fill & re-drill holes at weakest point of neck. (No idea why Fender didn't use top-down Floyd nut screw option. Jeez.) On my journey to a fully compensated nut. . I love aLL your videos--thank you!
@5:15…..🎶don’t leave me high…..don’t leave me dry🎶 This is an intriguing idea for existing guitars. I engineer this idea into the guitars I build, at the time I create my fretboards…..by shaving off just a bit from the end (of the fretboard)…..so that the face of the nut actually sits in the space where you’re placing the cutoff of your E string in this video. I love people’s reactions to how well my guitars intonate 🖐🏼
I'll definitely try this. Along the same lines, I have discovered that any drop tuning I do will sound better with the bass string tuned just a hair flat. I have a number of guitars, and it works on all of them.
I have one guitar that I somehow managed to intonate correctly after making a new nut and compensating saddle. It is now a great guitar to play and even my bandmate was impressed with it. No easy feat. I am going to try this with my other acoustic. With feedback of course.
Most guitars I've owned had a 'B' string that was too flat when played anywhere off the nut. A small bit of plastic off a credit card, white glued to the front of the nut, solved the tuning problem.
I found filing the nut to the point where you are spot on on the first fret fixed everything. I had a banana headstock Kramer I couldn’t intonate, blamed the weird headstock but after filing the nut it didn’t matter. Love it now.
I think the reason it works is because it compensates for the angle between the nut and the finger when fingering the first fret. I try to file the nut grove down as far as I can, but the point where it seems to make a difference is where it buzzes. I'm gonna go try this right now!
I used to do this on my acoustic and classical guitars on the early years. I found it just by playing my guitar and not feeling totally in tune when playing various chord (also some buzzing starting to develop because of the nut). I never thought it had any merit or foundation in any scientific or musical knowledge. It just felt right
My McPherson carbon acoustic guitar has a compensated nut that has extra material at the low E and B strings. This applies only to the black nuts and not the older white one and it easy to see in photos on their website.
This is what I have been doing; I also frequently tune at the third fret, which I think splits the difference in intonation between open/cowboy chords and barre chords sounding good.
Going by ear on standard frets with G, B and e being slightly sharp on the first frets, and looking at equal tempeament frets, I always wondered why guitar manufacturer don`t put the nut 1 mm towards the first fret for a compromized better tuning. 🤔 I did that as I swapped a nut on a guitar wich needed it badly, with perfectly cut nut slots though, and another got a self made compensated brass nut. Both sound sweeter on the lower frets, and very good on the higher frets too! One may think it would sound out of tune higher ul the neck, but the differencies of a slightly shortened scale length dissipates over the frets more and more as you go up the neck. Not just not hearable, but resulting in a overall more pleasant tuning and sound. On other guitars it's not necessary because almost not hearable. 🤷🏻
Thanks! Very cool trick. I'll definitely try that at some point - probably sooner rather than later. I've always got some guitar or another acting up. I like very light gauge strings, and I've found that I have to be very careful about putting too much pressure on the strings with my fingertips. And definitely more so when playing chords.
Tuning at the 6th fret is for me the best way to get the intonation nice and even. Some strings might be better adjusted up/down a fret if they’re older.
Great tip, I have & will always tune with great necessity to either fix it, or die trying! I have been doing sweet tuning for a lot years now. I'd never heard anyone suggesting this sweet tuning idea until very recently! I suspect I have perfect pitch as I can hear an out of tune guitar even if it's ever so slight! If it's me, it's pure torture! Considering I have played for 50 or more years. A few months back I put new strings on from scratch, I'd never verified my thoughts on have perfect pitch so I thought I'd see how I'd do? I was spot on, I thought maybe I got lucky so, I month or so later I put new strings on my SurfCaster, son of a gun, I tuned to pitch yet again! Thank you for the tip, it may well save me some time, not to mention, my sanity.....
So two alteration: pitch and tone Pitch: I’m skeptical because each string is getting the same pitch shift when open, but not every chord has the same open notes nor needs those notes sharp Tone: brightness may be good in an acoustic but for electrics may turn into ice picks and hand grenades. Curious what a nylon string would do! Great video thanks for sharing! 👏👏
I have done this on my mandolins with good results. I did it by cutting the fretboard rather than adding wire. In my opinion it works by compensating for the extra stretch a string normally gets gets pressing down to the first fret. That happens because the string is being stopped near its end point so the amount pushed down to the fret board is greatest there. It doesn't have to do with temperament. All the other frets on your instrument are still in equal temperament. You're just compensating for the physics of pressing down your string near the nut.
I agree. Now you might cut your nut to have the same height as the first fret but I think it can be useful to have the strings slightly higher at the end to make it play louder(on the extra magical open strings), less chance of hitting first fret, so this will compensate for that.
@@kbongos That is so. Even with your nut cut even with fret height the effect still exists to some extent, but it's a little hard to explain without a diagram. Basically, the amount the string is stretched away from the bridge from pressing down is greater the closer that is done to the nut (making the fingered note sharper than fret layout alone would indicate).
I have a 1994 American strat neck that has had the nut replaced about 1.3 millimeters "too far" into the neck. It's in a wider slot that has slips of wood on each side of it. I don't know if it was intentional but it seems to compensate for the sharpness caused by fretting the strings. In terms of technical measurements, it implies that all fretted notes should be a tad flat but when you fret a string you also sharpen the pitch by bending it.
After 40 years of being bothered by this i found a guitar that intonated perfectly and I named her “TrueD” for the pure D chord I had always wanted. I had no idea what was going on. Now I know and I have a 1969 Gibson Diamond Jubilee B25 that needs this fix and maybe the brighter tone that comes with it. Thanks
All makes great sense!! How bout for my strat?? I'm a pro singer/guitarist in Vegas & work solo loop shows all the time...both acoustic & my strat are gone & technically in tune but I definitely hear the difference! So would you use a .53 under an electric neck? Subscribed! Thanks
I've been doing something similar to that for years, using a small size "leg" of a cotter pin under stings 1, and sometimes 2. It works very well and once you find the right size cotter pin, it's very easy to do.
My Gibson 339 nut is hopeless. I sweetened it by putting a sawn off panel pin under the top E and B strings. I'd not thought of using an actual guitar string so this seems a good idea.
IMHO equally tempered fretboard by itself does not need this modification. It is needed if bone nut is placed too far from the bridge (not too close) or if touch point in the nut is not on the very edge but somewhere in the middle. Zero fret would eliminate these problems.
We're getting there... Look at how much guitar you can get for $300 these days... Stainless steel ball end frets aren't out of the question for some of these Harley Benton's and what not.... Idk that there has been enough of a complaint or demand for this... Zero frets have been a thing that just never stuck... This may be a little different than a zero fret but that's what it made me think of... Idk why they never caught on tbh... Personally I remember seeing them a lot on like shitty acoustics from the 80s and 90s and that honestly caused me to associate a zero fret with cheaply made literal no name guitars... Like I remember thinking they must just have planks with frets installed and cut off 'x' length of it to streamline the process or something.... But yeah... It's been a thing forever. Washburn had that buzz feyton tuning system that was basically a zero fret and some adjustments across the board basically. Just never caught on.
I have quite a few guitars. My Hohner G3T "cricket bat" is the best of them all. Deliciously sweet tuning and you can bend the hell out of it and it will never go out of tune. It has a zero fret.
Cool trick, thanks. I like to tune every string to E (1st string open, 2nd string on fret 5, 3rd on 9, 4th on 2, 5th on 7 and last string on 12) which I've found to create a nice balance itself already, and it can even kind of smooth out intonation on a poorly set up guitar.
Cut the nut slots with aid of a tuner. Open e should line up with fretted f. If F is sharp, cut the slot until it isn't. I always do this as the final step after the other end is intonated. Every note on the board will line up with a tuner after this.
interesting concept and effect. i wondered how it affect the tuning on the 12th fret since you shortened the scale by adding that string before the nut. isn't the bridge compensated already to make up for the intonation issues? this may be a fix for the chords in open position and just the first few frets but could mess up the rest of the intonation on higher frets.
Good observations and questions. This modification compensates for deflection at the nut, which tends to be limited to the first quarter or so of the scale length. As you approach the 12th fret mid point, the effect is basically negligible as bridge compensation takes over.
@@guitar-niche thanks for your input! it's always nice to experiment to see what other things we can do to resolve the imperfections of an old design. perhaps the fan fret system fixes all these problems on both ends of the fretboard? never tested one before but i wondered if that would take care off all the issues.
Compenstated "shelf" nuts are a thing. Your quick solution does much the same thing, if with a bit less nuance. My main beef on my guitars is the low G at the third fret on the E string often sounds manky (sharp).
While seeing your video, 3 points came to my mind: 1 - The Tone Change. There must be a change on the guitar sound (apart from the intonation). In the old days, some people playing slide used to put a nail under the string to produce a bluesy “dirty” sound. 2 - BFTS (Buzz Feiten Tuning System): It's a patented system for fretted instruments that compensates the intonation, considering the scale length, fret width and string gauge, both on the guitar nut and on the bridge, for each string. Some authorised manufacturers include the BFTS on some models, while some dealers can install the BFTS on current guitars, both acoustic and electric. 3 - The 12-string Guitar. It’s 3 decades now that I also play 12-string guitar and I just can’t understand how the manufacturers leave the lower 4 octave strings at the same distance on the bridge… Some demanding players have to make a new compensated bridge. I believe this is an old pending issue to fix and a contributor (apart from the normal tuning process itself) that makes many 12-string guitars sound out of tune. Many Thanks for your candid and noble hint and advice.
You're quite welcome! The original idea for this actually came to me back in the 90's when BFTS started gaining traction. I was asked to reproduce it on a few customer's guitars so.... to prove the concept, I tried this little temporary experiment and it worked! And yes, truly accurate intonation on a twelve string is simply unattainable without individual string adjustment.
very cool trick! any time i see anything that solves intonation issues i pay attention. looking forward to giving it a shot. nothing more frustrating than hearing a perfect open G chord but the D somehow manages to sound like crap!
I often thought about taking a dremel to my bridge to change the intonation. Scar My Guitar got around this by installing a Gibson style bridge on his acoustic model he developed.
Its something to do with the maths they used being fractionally `out` on scale length,a pelmet type nut takes some making out of bone, but it really is a worthwhile ..and permanent remedy! intonation is everything..at BOTH ends of the instrument....🎼👍
I think it has more to do with manufacturing dogma - sticking to accepted mass production practices. Better builders do realize the benefits and make it part of their construction process.
It does sound sweet..very good trick will try it sometime. Question time = how does it go playing along with another guitarist using an unsweetened accoustic ? Are both able to tune to 440 with no tuning problems..thanks...
Tuning with a regular guitar in A440 isn't an issue because your reference points, typically the open strings, are identical. When playing, there will be very very small pitch differences but they shouldn't be an issue, more complimentary than anything.
The open string notes are now sharp compared to fretted notes. This is going to fill the spectrum slightly more so the attacks will sound louder on chords with combined open string and fretted notes. You will notice Mr. Niche does not play any sustained chords after his modification. Personally I don't hear enough difference to warrant fooling with this. Chords with combined open & fretted notes, left to decay will sound randomly weird. And the weirdness will change depending on which notes are fretted and which are open, so it will take a while to figure out that your guitar is just a little out of tune. But variety is the spice of life - if all you do is rhythm parts to accompany a vocal it'll be great - make the vocal sound tight! But if you're playing melodic parts too, you might want to keep your tuning right.
Tried this on my Sheraton II and it seems to work nicely beyond the 5th fret. Let me put it this way - my playing doesn't sound any crappier. Subtle changes
Seems like a simple enough modification, I particularly like the use of string-cuttings 'cos a full set of strings offers a range of thickness possibilities. I will definitely try this out soon.
Nice example for sure. I've been screwing with my guitars forever (ruined a couple...hehe). A compensated nut works on most. LTD COMES with a compensated nut on some models and they sound really great. All guitars are out of tune somewhere. I tried to put in a roller nut on my mex strat. the first through 5th fret always sounded sharp to my ear when tuned at open. I moved it up about 1/16th and it brought the whole fretboard WAY better into tune and intonation sounded much better. PLUS tune stability got WAY better. If I pushed the string behind the nut the string would go sharp and stay there...indicating the string wasn't sliding in the slot well....roller cured that BIG time. When I let friends play my guitar they always ask me who my luthier is.....I never tell them but they love my set ups. Especially with strats that have a really long string length behind the nut. I would never do it to anyone elses axe but mine sure sounds sweet to me. I also started tuning at the 5th fret....sounds MUCH better to me. Us rockers usually play in that area anyway. GREAT vid! Thanks!
Way too many variations on a theme. Any form of compensated tuning comes down to a subjective acceptance between the player and the instrument. In other words, if it works for you, great!
Took me a while to get my head around it, but basically fretted notes are slightly tuned down with this method. Open strings are shortened, the resulting higher pitch is compensated by lowering string tension, this results in lower pitch for frets that didn't move.
It might improve tuning for the cowboy chords near the nut. But it changes the scale lengtrh and therefore the rest of the fretboard will be worse tuning.
Now THAT is a very good question. Using a capo (on a properly setup guitar) essentially creates a zero fret. The unique thing about zero frets is they are excellent at reducing the need for compensation at that end of the guitar, they're much better for intonation - which pretty much makes this mod unnecessary :)
Bless.your soul! Any thing to sweeten my 12 string! And i will consider a compensated nut for.my 12 string. But this is simple and if it doesnt work i can remove it. Thank you sir! Most greatful! You have inspired me! Thank you!
When you dropped the E string, it sounds great when the E string functions as a maj 3rd. When it functions as a 4 or 5, it sounds like absolute garbage. So, THIS is the very thing equal tempered tuning was designed to fix. Now, if you muck with the equal temperament, you will get a benefit ONLY in those instances where you have a maj 3rd on a particular string that you detune. It sounds awesome FOR A MAJOR CHORD using that detuned string to play its maj 3rd. Any other chord will sound out of tune, though. So, Eddie VH did this idea on his B string almost religiously and you can hear the results of all his A based power chords and bar chords. Runnin With The Devil is monstrously in tune and linear with no garbled sound BECAUSE he did the very thing you did in your E string example. I calculated that he'd be playing TONS of those middle bar chords so.... why not optimize for those? Thus, the detuned B string. Now, he also would detune the little E string a tad bit to help the B and E together not sound so out of tune BUT what it did was make his last 2 strings slightly flat overall and you can hear it in his solos. JUST a hair flat. Middle bar chords? GRAMMY. BUT, if you muck with where the string actually crosses the nut? You will get no good intonation across the fretboard. You will get sharp and flat because now, you have altered the scale by so doing. The 2nd fret may be butter on an open D chord, but try it at the 12th fret. Not butter. It's all very interesting and it's good for people to try detuning first (as that's easy) and see how that affects things and try adjusting the nut hump if you will and see how that affects things. I disagree with mucking with the nut distance from fret 1 but that's my opinion. by 3:28 you have in effect altered the entire scale length of the guitar and you can never get the strings in tune except for the 12th fret or whatever fret you decide is where you want it in tune. If you get open and 12th in tune (it'll be a hair past the 12th how you did it) then ALL the frets will intonate out of tune by varying degrees from most flat at fret 1 to in tune at fret 12 and then sharp after fret 12. Again, I wouldn't recommend this if you want to sound in tune but hey, try it out. Play octaves, play 4ths and 5ths with distortion... I think you'll find it a rather frustrating ride. On acoustic, it will be less noticeable. And no, moving the strings ahead didn't cause it to go out of tune with itself. RAISING the height is what caused them all to go slightly sharp (increased string tension) and since all the strings are different THICKNESSES, they did not increase in pitch linearly. That's why they were out of tune with each other and moving the fulcrum pt also changed them a tad to be sharp in general but will be a hair flat when you play near the nut but overall flat so it won't help you get that butter open D at all. ALL the strings will be flat because you put the string under ALL THE STRINGS. If you just put it under the last 2, it might work better for the open D and open C. ? Interesting, though, but I wouldn't use the idea myself. last point, if this really was a thing, it would be already done. IOW, fret 0 would auto be placed WRONGLY too close to fret 1. But all you are doing is messing up the scale length so that only two places are in tune: open strings and 12th fret (almost). anyway.... have fun!
I think you just said there are tons of variables. Uh, yeah! Thusly, you intonate and tune to your basket of needs. And live with the trade-offs. No matter where you intonate, those are your "in" nodes. Open/12th, 7th/19th. (When I know I'll be playing everywhere around the neck, I'll put on a wound G. Talk about a sweetener!) And remember, a fair amount of nuts & frets are...imprecisely...positioned from factory. It can be slight, but I notice. Anyhow, I've made peace with Flatness. Flat is my friend. One example: mid-neck I set a partial A-grip in tune a la EVH knowing that partial E-grips will need G and/or B string sharpening...so I slightly bend or push those strings harder. Can't do that if that E-grip is already perfect. There's a funny Segovia meme out there that's like: Señor Segovia, how is your guitar always so in tune? He replies: the guitar is not, dummy! I *play* in tune!!
@@nickvalve9583 "And remember, a fair amount of nuts & frets are...imprecisely...positioned from factory." This is certainly not only possible but I would claim it happens a small percentage of the time. It's going to be one of three options: too close, too far or the right distance from fret 1. I'm just saying that for me, I think leaving the nut as fret 0 makes the most logical sense. I mean, you aren't able to adjust any of the ACTUAL frets, right? So why muck with fret 0? It's a bit illogical but I didn't want to seem like an intonation fundamentalist. I would prefer that my tuning is at least CONSISTENT up and down the fretboard and as such, I would never alter the nut or fret locations but I WOULD alter the B and E strings to be maybe a tiny bit flat as I do play a lot of the A based bar chord. It's funny you mention Segovia being in tune. His guitar sounds out of tune on tons of recordings. If he used a straight bridge saddle, that won't always allow for good intonation. That's why they invented MOVEABLE bridge saddles and at least the ones that are individual and fixed where they are roughly in the positions they should be (farther from the neck for larger strings etc). AND lastly, to your point about starting flat so you can bend up, you are totally correct. If you are aware of these issues, you can literally bend up to fix some of these but it's harder when doing certain chords. In general, if you know you are doing a maj 3rd, you can bend the non-3rd note or notes UP juuuust a hair and boom, you get that car horn linear butter. Just being aware of this (as we are you, I and the video uploader) is huge. It means we could be more in tune than the average person and thus accomplish what music is intended for: sounding good. :) Very nice to read someone who knows what they are talking about.
I do this to my classical guitars. On the market there is the "S.O.S. nut compensatin" (about 15 Euro). same principle. Mostly I need it for the G string only, sometimes B string too. Now the open E major and C major chords really intonate good. Not perfectly (but that's impossible for a fretted instrument, and equal temperament). 👍
Great tip. Always been annoyed by especially the major third in the D-chord (but also various chord-grips). What surprised me with this method is that the whole problem isn’t just moved in parallel if you know what I mean? I can clearly hear that the F# is so much sweeter in the D-chord but since all strings are moved a notch I would have expected that the problem would remain. Didn’t hear an open E in comparison but I suspect it also was fine. I have a TT-neck on one of my guitars and that addresses the whole thing beautifully. Thanks for great vid.
I've never had a problem with that, I just tuned my B to my G with a noted 4th which you can hear that slight flat note. Not a open string to the fretted note. I do that only for the G & B. Ofcourse you have some slight shift on open chords. I think there are nuts that have offset slot peaks to help with string tuning mainly the B and high E. Most don't have a precise ear to hear it. With most acoustics you're limited with setting intenation. Electrics have adjustable saddles to help.
This is fantastic, (wish I knew your name) But a clever chap by any other name is still a clever chap. Thank you so very much. This is going to solve several problems for me with my misbehaving Tanglewood acoustic/electric.
Can't wait to try this. Hoping it will fix constant issues with a song that goes from A to Dsus2 among other problems getting open chords to sound good. I have to listen even when using electronic tuners because if I don't fudge every string the right amount even though it is in the green it sounds horrible to me. Open D is the first chord I hit to see if I got it right, but then Dsus2 is the acid test. Future me back. This is f in brilliant! what this does is flatten the fretted note sightly which means the open strings are no longer relatively flat. The Dsus2 I spoke of requires that the open high E ring be rung thruout the song and this makes it sound perfect. It does flatten your intonation at the 12th fret also so be aware, on one of my guitars this was desired, on another less so. So I guess all fret boards are laid out strictly by the math, as this would be easy enough to build in when laying out the frets
@@guitar-niche I want to add that compensating the tuning a la James Taylor and me previously bites me on other chords. This method means every open string remains properly sharp to match the slightly sharp fretted note. Auto Tune! I can't thank you enough.
Kick up the whole sound of your guitar by adding a Brass ToneBar. You pins will be gone and the sustain and brightness of your guit WILL improve! Das 😎 all! 👍🏻😉
It really makes a different, on the sound of my guitar adds more body to it I like very much I am going to leave the guitar string there, thanks a million!!🤘
This is a cool trick! There are tuners that can make this compensation. The Roadie 3 is able to do sweetened tunings. There are more basic tuners with this sort of feature too. I never really thought about trying a sweetened tunings - I have an acoustic that stays perfectly in tune, but it’s a little harsh/tinny sounding since the body is made from bidirectional CF. I’ve found darker strings that make the trebles much less harsh, but I always go back to my favorite strings because they are generally more dynamic across the board. I just put up with it, but I’ve just realized that a sweetened tuning might be what my guitar needs from hearing your open D. I might just have to try this trick! Thanks!
![KSI - Dirty [Official Visualiser]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VoDh1h1dPUE/mqdefault.jpg)
Essentially have you placed the 53 string in place at the nut which has sharpened all the open string notes, then you have dropped them all again to proper pitch. The overall tuning length of the string will be shorter, and the nut becomes a metal nut not bone or plastic . Of Course the guitar will be brighter. You have a metal nut interacting with the fretboard. Also you have standardised all the string heights passing the first fret maybe eliminating any effect of a poorly cut nut in terms of individual string heights which cause some to go 'sharp' when fretted. You do seem to have hit on something.
The key here was moving the nut closer to the first fret, the other items are of little consequence or benefit.
@@kristopherk5454 Would this be a benefit to just this particular guitar only / Was the first fret to nut distance incorrect and needing shortened or would this be the case for all guitars of this scale length ? I'd like to see this done on more guitars. This may be just one guitar or industry changing ?
Some guitars do have a nut that is too far from the first fret and as a result will never play in tune, but this is an example of “sweetening” the intonation of the guitar. I do think it would be nice to see if this works in more guitars, and does it actually work across the fretboard, not just the chords played in the video.
Thanks!
@@kristopherk5454 It tends to be more beneficial within the first quarter or so of the scale length. After that, bridge intonation takes over.
Holy shit. It does sound sweeter. Nice. Learn something new every day. Thanks brother.
You're welcome!
@@guitar-niche интересно ,а для бас гитары что ни будь даст?
@@ЕвгенийБогданов-ц5м I'd say so
Guys that have guitars in their hands all week always have the best tips. Take what works for you and leave what doesn’t! 👍
Perfectly said, thank you!
My late friend Desy Butler showed me this 40 years ago. Pure magic. Works on many guitars
Excellent!.
а что ж ты никому не рассказал об этом?...
Hey, I really appreciate this. Equal tempered was a compromise that made everybody unhappy but it saves a lot of work. To be perfectly "in tune" the pitches have to be frequencies of simple ratios such as 3/2, 4/3, etc. because the harmonics of the vibrating strings follow those ratios. Sitars feature moveable frets for this reason, but it gets crazy.
: The best solution I've ever heard of is in the piano, where the trios of strings are tuned so the center of the 3 is exactly on equal tempered pitch, then the ones on either side are tuned slightly sharp and slightly flat respectively. So when you hit a chord, the strings that are off ratio ring down pretty quick, but the ones that are on ratio re-energize each other.
Yep, With every note accessible and in multiples, piano offers a whole different set of intonation landscapes.
This slightly off tuning could also be done to fatten the sound. If all three strings are exactly the same pitch, it doesn't sound like three strings.
@@acbulgin2 This is truth, music is strange and mysterious. Now what can we make out of that
Yeah well pianos in that case are all representing one note with one input. That’s not the case in the guitar as a general proposition
LOL, you lost me after the first sentence !
This is a really great hack. It's simple and it does a couple of things at the same time, as you have described. It's my opinion that zero frets should be standard on any production instrument. There are so many factors to consider when working with the nut... it can get finicky. This solution is beautiful!
Thanks!
This is amazing!!!!!! I've been around guitar players for most of my life and have NEVER heard of this before!!!!!!
You're welcome!
I got my first Earvana nut almost 20 years ago. It really helps the guitar play more in tune - especially close to the nut. I bought some Solo Spacers that let you slide in a little insert to see if the idea would help a particular guitar. For 10-15 bucks you can try it.
If we assume the scale length is 25.5”, all the frets are equal tempered for 25.5”. But the actual scale length is shortened to approx 25.48”.
You used a pitchfork to tune the A string (A440Hz I assume). Then used your ears to tune the rest of the strings. Therefore, you were likely using “just intonation” to tune up the guitar.
So in essence, you are using a 25.5” scale length equal tempered fretboard layout, but with an actual scale length of approximately 25.48”, and tuned using just intonation.
The likely result of this experiment is that your guitar sounds in sweetly in tune with itself using certain chord shapes in certain key signatures. This is great if you only play by yourself as a solo act, and only stick to certain keys and chord shapes.
However, there is a HUGE tradeoff: 1) If you play alongside another guitarist, or a pianist, or any other chording instrument you’re going to have tuning problems matching with them. 2) If you start playing music/songs that take you into multiple keys, the tuning and temperament will start to produce out of tune chords.
So if you play in a band with only guitar players, you’d have to get all the other guitars to be set up this way, and you’d have to stick to only certain keys to play all your music in. As soon as you add a keyboard player, you’re going to experience matching issues with the tuning, because the piano is equal tempered and for good reason.
This is probably a great recording trick to make a specific recorded song sound really good, but it’s very impractical for playing live in a band context.
Having said that, it’s a REALLY cool trick that can be very handy in certain situations. It’s quick to do, and easy to undo.
Thanks for sharing!
You're welcome!
100% correct. Thanks for the taking the time to explain it.
Your comment very helpful and answers my question about what happens up the neck with this tuning. As i had guessed, it kind of desn't work for playing the whole neck, and all the other issues you mention true also. it sure does make a D chord at the nut sound fabulous though, and all the other "open" chords guitar-nich played also. Thanks for your in depth comment.
This is right in theory. But in my experience the influence in the upper regions of the fretboard is so small that you can not hear ist. Or the influence of the way you push the string onto the fret is bigger. (If you put only a little bit more pressure on the string the pitch gets higher).
I did this with my bass guitar using a plastic toothpick to get rid of a slight buzz it had. It worked but then I noticed that it stayed in tune better and sounded better. I kept it that way now for the past 20 years. It still sounds great.
That's awesome! Thanks for sharing :)
I wondered how it would work on bass, thanks!
And you always have clean teeth in-between 🙂
I believe Eddie Van Halen detuned his B string slightly to make the major 3rd of an A chord and it's barre shapes, and then tuned the high E to a 4th from the B. That's why the triads in Running With The Devil sound so great. I notice in the live recordings that he never seems to play all six strings at once, which would show those to be off.
I just saw a video on that very subject - very interesting, but yeah, kind of restricting at the same time. Still, didn't seem to hurt his career :)
can confirm this 100%
I used Allen keys just the right thickness on 2 guitars . a 3/4 size acoustic and a classical that i wanted to brighten up . Worked like a charm . I 've been playing for almost 50 years. This could have saved me a lot of cash over the years.
That is a good idea. A little harder than a piece of string.
I knew my ears wern't lying!!! This drives someone who plays by ear nuts!!!!! Thank you...
You're welcome!
Hi, I listened to all of your video and have now tried this tip on 3 previously troublesome guitars. However, I used a piece of an old bass guitar D string (0.60) as I didn't have a thick enough regular guitar string. It works the same.
A fretted G on the low E string is now perfectly in tune...and everything else seems much better too. Not sure of the science but this tip does work.
I have a Yamaha (APX 4-12A) 12 string electro-acoustic that was a tricky guitar to tune and play...after adding a false zero fret, it now plays in tune and actually feels much easier to play. I really can't understand why but it does work ... Thanks
You're welcome!
Good idea, but I did not like the sound of the open strings after I tried this. So I took a file and made the fretboard a bit shorter. Then I could move the nut a bit closer to the first fret. I like the result.
Interesting trick, easy to do or undo at no expense. Thanks
You're welcome!
My first fret is quite sharp.. decreasing as you go to higher frets.
From the octave and up, becomes very flat. This cheap guitar needs the nut advanced, as the bridge adjusters are as close to the neck as they can go.
Thanks for the way to test before modifications. Mahalo! 🐳🍻
@@bubblerings You're welcome! Good luck with your adjustments, and please make sure you use fresh strings that are fully stretched, otherwise you're chasing a ghost.
"...
The old man is weak but strength comes from him
A smile full of youth, and a gleam in his eye
His garden is green and seems overflowing
And his dreams await in his rockin' chair sky
..."
Hosco makes a "Sounds Offset Spacer." It functions as a compensated shim. It's magic!
As you were inserting that low E string up to the nut, I was thinking that could serve as a good gauge for nut slot depth ... insurance against overcutting. When I played for a living, the band would tune to the organ most of the time and just tune by ear. For my guitars, that worked extremely well. As I began to incorporate alternate tunings, I needed a strobe tuner (Peterson) to facilitate quick tuning between songs. Now, using the modern (and cheaper) tuners we have today, I feel that my guitars are never tuned "perfectly" by those tuners ... they only get me the the right "range". I always have to tweak the final tuning by ear.
Right now, I like my low E a bit flat, (according to the tuner), less so the B, but definitely the E. The B is ok probably cause of the comp saddle, maybe I could do somethin for the E, hmm...
Saw a Leo Kottke vid where he said "my tuner is making suggestions that I'm ignoring". He said it funnier. Me, I'm an intonation freak, so my tuner is often ignored, too.
Was thinking the same for nut filing.
Right? Your ear is always the best judge.
@@nickvalve9583 LOL, that's awesome!
WOW!!! THIS IS AN INTERESTING LITTLE TRICK!! THANKS!!...
Thanks!
Amazing little hack - I will try it soon!
P.S. regarding possible intonation problems elsewhere: I once chatted with a folk guitarist whose guitar was hacked to sound even sweeter. I asked to try it and played my own stuff it sounded awful and asked him why. He replied that he had set his guitar up to sound sweet within the first five frets - "that's where I live", he said. 🙂
I use the old super glue and baking soda trick. I intonate to the fret board, then see how the nut is doing, and I almost always need to adjust the B or the G.
I've seen so many 'gimmicks' for tuning. THANKS for your EXPERIENCED & simple tip. I will try this for sure. I generally use the Peterson sweetened tunings to great success. THANKS
You're welcome!
...the Peterson 'sweetened tunings' are invaluable for pedal steel. I own two of them for every day tuning.
Same.
There's an old Nashville musicians trick of down-tuning the G, B and E strings to compensate for them going sharp when fretted, something like 4, 6 and 3 cents. The idea is that although they are slightly flat, usually one or more of those strings will be fretted. It's a trade-off, of course. I played around with it, but found that getting the nut cut properly created a satisfactory tuning for me.
Here's what James Taylor does. I think it probably helps him a lot where he plays capo'd at 3 often.
E string -3 cents
B string -6 cents
G string -4 cents
D string -8 cents
A string -10 cents
E string -12 cents
ruclips.net/video/V2xnXArjPts/видео.html
James Taylor has a specific recipe for adjusting selected strings a few cents down. Worth a try, look him up.
If the intonation and action are set for it, fretting lightly shouldn’t really bend the notes sharp, and in fact then you have control over that dissonance by fretting more firmly
Steve--using your idea, I just slid a 1.57mm Allen wrench next to my Floyd nut to fix a fretboard gap problem. A "stopgap", but it works to help intonation! .
TLDR: replaced factory FR nut on EVH Wolfgang Special ("old" style thru-neck screws), but introduced more than 1/16" gap between end of fretboard due to weird screw holes. Nothing I did narrowed it. Intonating right was impossible. Open strings & lower frets were ultra wrong. Still trying to figure a way to shift nut towards fretboard, but don't want to fill & re-drill holes at weakest point of neck. (No idea why Fender didn't use top-down Floyd nut screw option. Jeez.) On my journey to a fully compensated nut. . I love aLL your videos--thank you!
Thank YOU! I've seen the problem you're talking about, not an easy fix, but I think you may have some ideas on how to solve it now.
Your TLDR is three times as long as your "main" comment.
Um...bc it's the TL part.
@5:15…..🎶don’t leave me high…..don’t leave me dry🎶
This is an intriguing idea for existing guitars. I engineer this idea into the guitars I build, at the time I create my fretboards…..by shaving off just a bit from the end (of the fretboard)…..so that the face of the nut actually sits in the space where you’re placing the cutoff of your E string in this video. I love people’s reactions to how well my guitars intonate 🖐🏼
You got it!
I'll definitely try this. Along the same lines, I have discovered that any drop tuning I do will sound better with the bass string tuned just a hair flat. I have a number of guitars, and it works on all of them.
I just changed my strings so it'll be about 3 to 4 years before I change them again.
I'll keep your tip in mind.
😶Seems like a fair amount of time between changes - how often do you play?
I have one guitar that I somehow managed to intonate correctly after making a new nut and compensating saddle. It is now a great guitar to play and even my bandmate was impressed with it. No easy feat. I am going to try this with my other acoustic. With feedback of course.
Excellent!
A brass nut will do about the same thing. You want to spice it up even more, add brass string pegs at the bridge. Cool trick.
I got the brass nut, saddle, and pins for my acoustic and what a difference. I think it was about $11 for the set.
Thanks for the tip. I had thought the problem with the D chord out of tune was nut wear, and was going to re-cut it. Your idea looks way easier.
Thanks, hope it works for you.
Most guitars I've owned had a 'B' string that was too flat when played anywhere off the nut. A small bit of plastic off a credit card, white glued to the front of the nut, solved the tuning problem.
And there you have it - brilliant!
Thank You for The Pointers Brother, God Bless
You're welcome!
Read my mind brother, I've been hoping for a way to improve my intonation. When I get home today that's what I'll be doing. Thank you and God bless
You're welcome, and good luck!
I found filing the nut to the point where you are spot on on the first fret fixed everything. I had a banana headstock Kramer I couldn’t intonate, blamed the weird headstock but after filing the nut it didn’t matter. Love it now.
Good point!
I think the reason it works is because it compensates for the angle between the nut and the finger when fingering the first fret. I try to file the nut grove down as far as I can, but the point where it seems to make a difference is where it buzzes. I'm gonna go try this right now!
Good luck.
I used to do this on my acoustic and classical guitars on the early years. I found it just by playing my guitar and not feeling totally in tune when playing various chord (also some buzzing starting to develop because of the nut). I never thought it had any merit or foundation in any scientific or musical knowledge. It just felt right
My McPherson carbon acoustic guitar has a compensated nut that has extra material at the low E and B strings. This applies only to the black nuts and not the older white one and it easy to see in photos on their website.
yeh i never knew this, i will give it a go . i always found dropping the b just a tad down makes things ring out smoother to.
This is what I have been doing; I also frequently tune at the third fret, which I think splits the difference in intonation between open/cowboy chords and barre chords sounding good.
@Buntijr yes me to. It makes sense.
Going by ear on standard frets with G, B and e being slightly sharp on the first frets, and looking at equal tempeament frets, I always wondered why guitar manufacturer don`t put the nut 1 mm towards the first fret for a compromized better tuning. 🤔
I did that as I swapped a nut on a guitar wich needed it badly, with perfectly cut nut slots though, and another got a self made compensated brass nut.
Both sound sweeter on the lower frets, and very good on the higher frets too! One may think it would sound out of tune higher ul the neck, but the differencies of a slightly shortened scale length dissipates over the frets more and more as you go up the neck. Not just not hearable, but resulting in a overall more pleasant tuning and sound.
On other guitars it's not necessary because almost not hearable. 🤷🏻
Thanks! Very cool trick. I'll definitely try that at some point - probably sooner rather than later. I've always got some guitar or another acting up. I like very light gauge strings, and I've found that I have to be very careful about putting too much pressure on the strings with my fingertips. And definitely more so when playing chords.
Nice! I will try this!!
Tuning at the 6th fret is for me the best way to get the intonation nice and even. Some strings might be better adjusted up/down a fret if they’re older.
Great tip, I have & will always tune with great necessity to either fix it, or die trying! I have been doing sweet tuning for a lot years now. I'd never heard anyone suggesting this sweet tuning idea until very recently! I suspect I have perfect pitch as I can hear an out of tune guitar even if it's ever so slight! If it's me, it's pure torture! Considering I have played for 50 or more years. A few months back I put new strings on from scratch, I'd never verified my thoughts on have perfect pitch so I thought I'd see how I'd do? I was spot on, I thought maybe I got lucky so, I month or so later I put new strings on my SurfCaster, son of a gun, I tuned to pitch yet again! Thank you for the tip, it may well save me some time, not to mention, my sanity.....
50 лет пытки .... да вы батенька мазохист....
@@ЕвгенийБогданов-ц5м And yet it excites me as much today, as it ever did. Kind of like breathing for me !
@@MusiclyricsByECDaleyC бывает.... я сам бро играю на гитаре 50 лет.... привет из Курска
So two alteration: pitch and tone
Pitch: I’m skeptical because each string is getting the same pitch shift when open, but not every chord has the same open notes nor needs those notes sharp
Tone: brightness may be good in an acoustic but for electrics may turn into ice picks and hand grenades. Curious what a nylon string would do!
Great video thanks for sharing!
👏👏
You're welcome!
I have done this on my mandolins with good results. I did it by cutting the fretboard rather than adding wire. In my opinion it works by compensating for the extra stretch a string normally gets gets pressing down to the first fret. That happens because the string is being stopped near its end point so the amount pushed down to the fret board is greatest there. It doesn't have to do with temperament. All the other frets on your instrument are still in equal temperament. You're just compensating for the physics of pressing down your string near the nut.
I agree. Now you might cut your nut to have the same height as the first fret but I think it can be useful to have the strings slightly higher at the end to make it play louder(on the extra magical open strings), less chance of hitting first fret, so this will compensate for that.
@@kbongos That is so. Even with your nut cut even with fret height the effect still exists to some extent, but it's a little hard to explain without a diagram. Basically, the amount the string is stretched away from the bridge from pressing down is greater the closer that is done to the nut (making the fingered note sharper than fret layout alone would indicate).
Nailed it.
I have a 1994 American strat neck that has had the nut replaced about 1.3 millimeters "too far" into the neck. It's in a wider slot that has slips of wood on each side of it. I don't know if it was intentional but it seems to compensate for the sharpness caused by fretting the strings. In terms of technical measurements, it implies that all fretted notes should be a tad flat but when you fret a string you also sharpen the pitch by bending it.
After 40 years of being bothered by this i found a guitar that intonated perfectly and I named her “TrueD” for the pure D chord I had always wanted. I had no idea what was going on. Now I know and I have a 1969 Gibson Diamond Jubilee B25 that needs this fix and maybe the brighter tone that comes with it. Thanks
You're welcome!
All makes great sense!! How bout for my strat?? I'm a pro singer/guitarist in Vegas & work solo loop shows all the time...both acoustic & my strat are gone & technically in tune but I definitely hear the difference! So would you use a .53 under an electric neck? Subscribed! Thanks
I've been doing something similar to that for years, using a small size "leg" of a cotter pin under stings 1, and sometimes 2. It works very well and once you find the right size cotter pin, it's very easy to do.
My Gibson 339 nut is hopeless. I sweetened it by putting a sawn off panel pin under the top E and B strings. I'd not thought of using an actual guitar string so this seems a good idea.
It doesn't hurt to try this. I can see the benefits of negating deflection at the lower frets. I'm curious about other chord types
Thank you for the tip, I'll be sure to try it next time I change strings.
"Would you believe..."
IMHO equally tempered fretboard by itself does not need this modification. It is needed if bone nut is placed too far from the bridge (not too close) or if touch point in the nut is not on the very edge but somewhere in the middle. Zero fret would eliminate these problems.
A zero fret does essentially the same thing in reducing pitch deflection caused by pressure.
Nice. I've been doing that with the g string on my tele for years. That's why we can have intonated nuts, to fix this issue very precisely 👍
Super!!😂 Works for Strat and Tele? Thank you!!!
Thank you!!!
@@AMusic369 You're welcome!
Why isnt every nut on every guitar compensatory in this way? That shitty out of tune sound has driven me crazy all my life.
We're getting there... Look at how much guitar you can get for $300 these days... Stainless steel ball end frets aren't out of the question for some of these Harley Benton's and what not.... Idk that there has been enough of a complaint or demand for this... Zero frets have been a thing that just never stuck... This may be a little different than a zero fret but that's what it made me think of... Idk why they never caught on tbh... Personally I remember seeing them a lot on like shitty acoustics from the 80s and 90s and that honestly caused me to associate a zero fret with cheaply made literal no name guitars... Like I remember thinking they must just have planks with frets installed and cut off 'x' length of it to streamline the process or something.... But yeah... It's been a thing forever. Washburn had that buzz feyton tuning system that was basically a zero fret and some adjustments across the board basically. Just never caught on.
What a great idea. I look for guitars with a zero fret. I never thought I could actually make one. Thanks so much!
I have quite a few guitars. My Hohner G3T "cricket bat" is the best of them all. Deliciously sweet tuning and you can bend the hell out of it and it will never go out of tune. It has a zero fret.
@AlanJan_UK_49 Yes, And more guitars should be made with a zero fret. It's always a treat to find one and play it. Thank you
@@briankeenan4901 If I ever saw one in a second hand shop I'd buy it. It's that good.
Cool trick, thanks. I like to tune every string to E (1st string open, 2nd string on fret 5, 3rd on 9, 4th on 2, 5th on 7 and last string on 12) which I've found to create a nice balance itself already, and it can even kind of smooth out intonation on a poorly set up guitar.
You're welcome!
Cut the nut slots with aid of a tuner.
Open e should line up with fretted f.
If F is sharp, cut the slot until it isn't.
I always do this as the final step after the other end is intonated.
Every note on the board will line up with a tuner after this.
Interesting.
interesting concept and effect. i wondered how it affect the tuning on the 12th fret since you shortened the scale by adding that string before the nut. isn't the bridge compensated already to make up for the intonation issues? this may be a fix for the chords in open position and just the first few frets but could mess up the rest of the intonation on higher frets.
Good observations and questions. This modification compensates for deflection at the nut, which tends to be limited to the first quarter or so of the scale length. As you approach the 12th fret mid point, the effect is basically negligible as bridge compensation takes over.
@@guitar-niche thanks for your input! it's always nice to experiment to see what other things we can do to resolve the imperfections of an old design. perhaps the fan fret system fixes all these problems on both ends of the fretboard? never tested one before but i wondered if that would take care off all the issues.
Compenstated "shelf" nuts are a thing. Your quick solution does much the same thing, if with a bit less nuance. My main beef on my guitars is the low G at the third fret on the E string often sounds manky (sharp).
I tune my low E a bit flat for exactly that reason. I play a low G more often than E I've found
if nothing can be done about intonation and action, it sounds like the nut being too high;
While seeing your video, 3 points came to my mind:
1 - The Tone Change. There must be a change on the guitar sound (apart from the intonation). In the old days, some people playing slide used to put a nail under the string to produce a bluesy “dirty” sound.
2 - BFTS (Buzz Feiten Tuning System): It's a patented system for fretted instruments that compensates the intonation, considering the scale length, fret width and string gauge, both on the guitar nut and on the bridge, for each string. Some authorised manufacturers include the BFTS on some models, while some dealers can install the BFTS on current guitars, both acoustic and electric.
3 - The 12-string Guitar. It’s 3 decades now that I also play 12-string guitar and I just can’t understand how the manufacturers leave the lower 4 octave strings at the same distance on the bridge… Some demanding players have to make a new compensated bridge. I believe this is an old pending issue to fix and a contributor (apart from the normal tuning process itself) that makes many 12-string guitars sound out of tune.
Many Thanks for your candid and noble hint and advice.
You're quite welcome! The original idea for this actually came to me back in the 90's when BFTS started gaining traction. I was asked to reproduce it on a few customer's guitars so.... to prove the concept, I tried this little temporary experiment and it worked!
And yes, truly accurate intonation on a twelve string is simply unattainable without individual string adjustment.
very cool trick! any time i see anything that solves intonation issues i pay attention. looking forward to giving it a shot. nothing more frustrating than hearing a perfect open G chord but the D somehow manages to sound like crap!
Thanks and good luck!
I often thought about taking a dremel to my bridge to change the intonation. Scar My Guitar got around this by installing a Gibson style bridge on his acoustic model he developed.
Its something to do with the maths they used being fractionally
`out` on scale length,a pelmet type nut takes some making out
of bone, but it really is a worthwhile ..and permanent remedy!
intonation is everything..at BOTH ends of the instrument....🎼👍
It's called a 'zero fret'. Roger Bucknall of Fylde Guitars has been using them on his wonderful guitars since the early 1970's, and still does.
A zero fret usually conforms to predetermined fret positions. This is a little different.
Nice video, could you explain why isn't the nut of the guitar already at the correct "sweet" position?
I think it has more to do with manufacturing dogma - sticking to accepted mass production practices. Better builders do realize the benefits and make it part of their construction process.
I use compensated nuts now. Open/ 1st position chords sound better to me.
It does sound sweet..very good trick will try it sometime. Question time = how does it go playing along with another guitarist using an unsweetened accoustic ? Are both able to tune to 440 with no tuning problems..thanks...
Tuning with a regular guitar in A440 isn't an issue because your reference points, typically the open strings, are identical. When playing, there will be very very small pitch differences but they shouldn't be an issue, more complimentary than anything.
It really does sound sweeter after the adjustment.
The open string notes are now sharp compared to fretted notes. This is going to fill the spectrum slightly more so the attacks will sound louder on chords with combined open string and fretted notes. You will notice Mr. Niche does not play any sustained chords after his modification. Personally I don't hear enough difference to warrant fooling with this.
Chords with combined open & fretted notes, left to decay will sound randomly weird. And the weirdness will change depending on which notes are fretted and which are open, so it will take a while to figure out that your guitar is just a little out of tune. But variety is the spice of life - if all you do is rhythm parts to accompany a vocal it'll be great - make the vocal sound tight! But if you're playing melodic parts too, you might want to keep your tuning right.
Except that he tuned the open strings to standard first...
But...for a mis-located nut, it goes a long way to mitigate.
Awesome idea! So simple. Thank-you!
Tried this on my Sheraton II and it seems to work nicely beyond the 5th fret. Let me put it this way - my playing doesn't sound any crappier. Subtle changes
Excellent!
Seems like a simple enough modification, I particularly like the use of string-cuttings 'cos a full set of strings offers a range of thickness possibilities. I will definitely try this out soon.
Nice example for sure. I've been screwing with my guitars forever (ruined a couple...hehe). A compensated nut works on most. LTD COMES with a compensated nut on some models and they sound really great. All guitars are out of tune somewhere. I tried to put in a roller nut on my mex strat. the first through 5th fret always sounded sharp to my ear when tuned at open. I moved it up about 1/16th and it brought the whole fretboard WAY better into tune and intonation sounded much better. PLUS tune stability got WAY better. If I pushed the string behind the nut the string would go sharp and stay there...indicating the string wasn't sliding in the slot well....roller cured that BIG time. When I let friends play my guitar they always ask me who my luthier is.....I never tell them but they love my set ups. Especially with strats that have a really long string length behind the nut. I would never do it to anyone elses axe but mine sure sounds sweet to me. I also started tuning at the 5th fret....sounds MUCH better to me. Us rockers usually play in that area anyway. GREAT vid! Thanks!
Thanks for sharing your experience, and you're welcome!
Whats your take on the James Taylor tuning and other compensated tunings.
Way too many variations on a theme. Any form of compensated tuning comes down to a subjective acceptance between the player and the instrument. In other words, if it works for you, great!
Absolutely awesome. Thank you for sharing your tips ❤❤
You're welcome!
Took me a while to get my head around it, but basically fretted notes are slightly tuned down with this method.
Open strings are shortened, the resulting higher pitch is compensated by lowering string tension, this results in lower pitch for frets that didn't move.
That's part of it.
James Taylor has a video about making a few cents change to tuning
It might improve tuning for the cowboy chords near the nut. But it changes the scale lengtrh and therefore the rest of the fretboard will be worse tuning.
Not true. Tested. It's all good, more pleasant across the board.
If you were to add this "string piece" a fret above a capoed 2nd or 4th fret
could you achieve the same results?
Now THAT is a very good question.
Using a capo (on a properly setup guitar) essentially creates a zero fret. The unique thing about zero frets is they are excellent at reducing the need for compensation at that end of the guitar, they're much better for intonation - which pretty much makes this mod unnecessary :)
Bless.your soul! Any thing to sweeten my 12 string! And i will consider a compensated nut for.my 12 string. But this is simple and if it doesnt work i can remove it. Thank you sir! Most greatful! You have inspired me! Thank you!
You're most welcome!
When you dropped the E string, it sounds great when the E string functions as a maj 3rd. When it functions as a 4 or 5, it sounds like absolute garbage. So, THIS is the very thing equal tempered tuning was designed to fix. Now, if you muck with the equal temperament, you will get a benefit ONLY in those instances where you have a maj 3rd on a particular string that you detune. It sounds awesome FOR A MAJOR CHORD using that detuned string to play its maj 3rd. Any other chord will sound out of tune, though. So, Eddie VH did this idea on his B string almost religiously and you can hear the results of all his A based power chords and bar chords. Runnin With The Devil is monstrously in tune and linear with no garbled sound BECAUSE he did the very thing you did in your E string example. I calculated that he'd be playing TONS of those middle bar chords so.... why not optimize for those? Thus, the detuned B string. Now, he also would detune the little E string a tad bit to help the B and E together not sound so out of tune BUT what it did was make his last 2 strings slightly flat overall and you can hear it in his solos. JUST a hair flat. Middle bar chords? GRAMMY. BUT, if you muck with where the string actually crosses the nut? You will get no good intonation across the fretboard. You will get sharp and flat because now, you have altered the scale by so doing. The 2nd fret may be butter on an open D chord, but try it at the 12th fret. Not butter. It's all very interesting and it's good for people to try detuning first (as that's easy) and see how that affects things and try adjusting the nut hump if you will and see how that affects things. I disagree with mucking with the nut distance from fret 1 but that's my opinion. by 3:28 you have in effect altered the entire scale length of the guitar and you can never get the strings in tune except for the 12th fret or whatever fret you decide is where you want it in tune. If you get open and 12th in tune (it'll be a hair past the 12th how you did it) then ALL the frets will intonate out of tune by varying degrees from most flat at fret 1 to in tune at fret 12 and then sharp after fret 12. Again, I wouldn't recommend this if you want to sound in tune but hey, try it out. Play octaves, play 4ths and 5ths with distortion... I think you'll find it a rather frustrating ride. On acoustic, it will be less noticeable. And no, moving the strings ahead didn't cause it to go out of tune with itself. RAISING the height is what caused them all to go slightly sharp (increased string tension) and since all the strings are different THICKNESSES, they did not increase in pitch linearly. That's why they were out of tune with each other and moving the fulcrum pt also changed them a tad to be sharp in general but will be a hair flat when you play near the nut but overall flat so it won't help you get that butter open D at all. ALL the strings will be flat because you put the string under ALL THE STRINGS. If you just put it under the last 2, it might work better for the open D and open C. ? Interesting, though, but I wouldn't use the idea myself. last point, if this really was a thing, it would be already done. IOW, fret 0 would auto be placed WRONGLY too close to fret 1. But all you are doing is messing up the scale length so that only two places are in tune: open strings and 12th fret (almost). anyway.... have fun!
Holy moly!...
I think you just said there are tons of variables. Uh, yeah!
Thusly, you intonate and tune to your basket of needs. And live with the trade-offs. No matter where you intonate, those are your "in" nodes. Open/12th, 7th/19th. (When I know I'll be playing everywhere around the neck, I'll put on a wound G. Talk about a sweetener!)
And remember, a fair amount of nuts & frets are...imprecisely...positioned from factory. It can be slight, but I notice.
Anyhow, I've made peace with Flatness. Flat is my friend. One example: mid-neck I set a partial A-grip in tune a la EVH knowing that partial E-grips will need G and/or B string sharpening...so I slightly bend or push those strings harder. Can't do that if that E-grip is already perfect.
There's a funny Segovia meme out there that's like: Señor Segovia, how is your guitar always so in tune? He replies: the guitar is not, dummy! I *play* in tune!!
@@nickvalve9583 "And remember, a fair amount of nuts & frets are...imprecisely...positioned from factory." This is certainly not only possible but I would claim it happens a small percentage of the time. It's going to be one of three options: too close, too far or the right distance from fret 1. I'm just saying that for me, I think leaving the nut as fret 0 makes the most logical sense. I mean, you aren't able to adjust any of the ACTUAL frets, right? So why muck with fret 0? It's a bit illogical but I didn't want to seem like an intonation fundamentalist. I would prefer that my tuning is at least CONSISTENT up and down the fretboard and as such, I would never alter the nut or fret locations but I WOULD alter the B and E strings to be maybe a tiny bit flat as I do play a lot of the A based bar chord. It's funny you mention Segovia being in tune. His guitar sounds out of tune on tons of recordings. If he used a straight bridge saddle, that won't always allow for good intonation. That's why they invented MOVEABLE bridge saddles and at least the ones that are individual and fixed where they are roughly in the positions they should be (farther from the neck for larger strings etc). AND lastly, to your point about starting flat so you can bend up, you are totally correct. If you are aware of these issues, you can literally bend up to fix some of these but it's harder when doing certain chords. In general, if you know you are doing a maj 3rd, you can bend the non-3rd note or notes UP juuuust a hair and boom, you get that car horn linear butter. Just being aware of this (as we are you, I and the video uploader) is huge. It means we could be more in tune than the average person and thus accomplish what music is intended for: sounding good. :) Very nice to read someone who knows what they are talking about.
@@guitar-niche I know, I wrote a book. But sometimes I get on a roll. :) Thx for the vid and ideas!!!
@@TruthSurge Your'e very welcome, and thanks for the book!
What a great idea in theory and in practice. Thank you for sharing. Niice … 🤙🏼
Excellent!
I do this to my classical guitars. On the market there is the "S.O.S. nut compensatin" (about 15 Euro). same principle. Mostly I need it for the G string only, sometimes B string too.
Now the open E major and C major chords really intonate good. Not perfectly (but that's impossible for a fretted instrument, and equal temperament). 👍
Right! Equal-tempered tuning truly is the villain of the story.
Great tip. Always been annoyed by especially the major third in the D-chord (but also various chord-grips). What surprised me with this method is that the whole problem isn’t just moved in parallel if you know what I mean? I can clearly hear that the F# is so much sweeter in the D-chord but since all strings are moved a notch I would have expected that the problem would remain. Didn’t hear an open E in comparison but I suspect it also was fine.
I have a TT-neck on one of my guitars and that addresses the whole thing beautifully.
Thanks for great vid.
You're welcome!
I've never had a problem with that, I just tuned my B to my G with a noted 4th which you can hear that slight flat note. Not a open string to the fretted note. I do that only for the G & B. Ofcourse you have some slight shift on open chords. I think there are nuts that have offset slot peaks to help with string tuning mainly the B and high E. Most don't have a precise ear to hear it. With most acoustics you're limited with setting intenation. Electrics have adjustable saddles to help.
Excellent sound!
Thanks!
I’m going to try that!
If builders shorten the scale length by that amount would that work?
Many builders do!
This is fantastic, (wish I knew your name) But a clever chap by any other name is still a clever chap. Thank you so very much. This is going to solve several problems for me with my misbehaving Tanglewood acoustic/electric.
The name is Steve, and thank you very much! Good luck!
Does this work with solid electric guitars, e.g. Fender Strat?
Yep!
Can't wait to try this. Hoping it will fix constant issues with a song that goes from A to Dsus2 among other problems getting open chords to sound good. I have to listen even when using electronic tuners because if I don't fudge every string the right amount even though it is in the green it sounds horrible to me. Open D is the first chord I hit to see if I got it right, but then Dsus2 is the acid test. Future me back. This is f in brilliant! what this does is flatten the fretted note sightly which means the open strings are no longer relatively flat. The Dsus2 I spoke of requires that the open high E ring be rung thruout the song and this makes it sound perfect. It does flatten your intonation at the 12th fret also so be aware, on one of my guitars this was desired, on another less so. So I guess all fret boards are laid out strictly by the math, as this would be easy enough to build in when laying out the frets
Thanks and good luck!
@@guitar-niche I want to add that compensating the tuning a la James Taylor and me previously bites me on other chords. This method means every open string remains properly sharp to match the slightly sharp fretted note. Auto Tune! I can't thank you enough.
Does that "under tuning" of the high E which sweetens the open D chord have anything to do with what Rick Derringer talks about IE: A - 400 vs A-440?
More like a related subject on how we interpret the "feel" of music and frequency.
Hey Steve, would this work on banjo?
It's based on a solid principle so yes.
Kick up the whole sound of your guitar by adding a Brass ToneBar. You pins will be gone and the sustain and brightness of your guit WILL improve! Das 😎 all! 👍🏻😉
I’m not the only one. Hello my brothers.
It really makes a different, on the sound of my guitar adds more body to it I like very much I am going to leave the guitar string there, thanks a million!!🤘
You're welcome!
This was a great suggestion! There IS a difference!!!!
Interesting, will give it a go!
This is a cool trick! There are tuners that can make this compensation. The Roadie 3 is able to do sweetened tunings. There are more basic tuners with this sort of feature too. I never really thought about trying a sweetened tunings - I have an acoustic that stays perfectly in tune, but it’s a little harsh/tinny sounding since the body is made from bidirectional CF. I’ve found darker strings that make the trebles much less harsh, but I always go back to my favorite strings because they are generally more dynamic across the board. I just put up with it, but I’ve just realized that a sweetened tuning might be what my guitar needs from hearing your open D. I might just have to try this trick! Thanks!
You're welcome, and good luck!