New patch, new Ultralisk! How do they compare? [Daily StarCraft Brawl]
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- Опубликовано: 25 авг 2024
- Watch giant armies battle. Can you predict the outcomes?
Round 1 - 40 Ultralisks vs 40 Ultralisks (new)
Round 2 - 20 Ultralisks vs 400 Marines
Round 3 - 20 Ultralisks (new) vs 400 Marines
Round 4 - 24 Ultralisks vs 500 Zealots
Round 5 - 24 Ultralisks (new) vs 500 Zealots
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This channel exists to document unit counters within StarCraft 2. Tya's Unit Tournament features epic battles between units in StarCraft 2, using music from the game's soundtrack. Units are chosen from Protoss, Terran and Zerg forces, or a coop commander such as Raynor, Nova, Artanis, or Kerrigan. Units will independently use their abilities, in a basic way. All units use Legacy of the Void stats, the same units you'd see in SC2 esports controlled by the likes of Serral, Maru, and ByuN. The resource beneath vespene is the unit's cost in the mod I run on the SC2 arcade, Direct Strike. Enjoy!
![[Хроники StarCraft] УЛЬТРАЛИСК (Ultralisk) | Вершина эволюции Роя](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/gEGooETs6sQ/mqdefault.jpg)
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The patch reduced Ultralisk size by 12.5%.
and slob
Wow
now compare WOL Ultras to current ones -- didn't WOL Ultras have different attacks?
Back in WOL the ultralisk had a ‘ram’ attack that only hit buildings
@@BoneLancerB yeah, and they had only 16 base damage
I remember running ultralisks through a unit battle simulator back in Wings of Liberty at 25% smaller. They not only do better as a pack, but flow muuuch better with other units. So glad they're getting attention in the area they need it most.
Only took Blizzard 10 years (literally)
smaller being better feels counterintuitive until you see it in action
@@CrazyJabberwock sounds hella sus
they couldve done just a hitbox tuneup
now the ultras seem less menacing
hmm maybe be coz of the atk range?
Abathur was trying to make them smaller so the Overlords could carry two at a time, I think he failed at that but he managed to improve them in other ways
Logically
If you trying to make Ultralisk smaller without reducing its power
You would need to make everything denser
The bones, the muscle, the heart rate, etc
There's also momentum and mass that is needed to withstand explosion and to deliver powerful swing
@@ArariaKAgelessTraveller i read this with an abathur voice in my head
@@ArariaKAgelessTraveller I mean lore wise they’re much bigger than the old version.
They were also made smaller so they wouldn't get stuck on everything.
Organism Ultralisk, core features muscular strength, enduring exoskeleton. Can not reduce weight without sacrificing core features. Can improve density for ease of movement along the swarm.
The Zealot fights surprised me, given the lack of disparity of the Old VS New fight.
Thought abt it a bit, the thing about the new ultra's is they're actually more vulnerable to splash because they're smaller and closer together (dgmw it's still a very good change that I'm happy abt) so the ultra match up was even because both had some advantage.
Zealots don't do splash though so it's a pure buff that let the ultra's sweep through.
the zealots can't get the surround on the ultras with as many zealots, which matters a lot with the disparity in numbers
@@Steelflex33 it also means that more splash DMG from ultras are prevalent. Even in the marine matchup it made a slight difference in kills because the ultras are taking less time squeezing in pretty "big" but not big enough space between 2 ultras. With 3 really close ultras, it means their DPS is also higher because of 3 doing splash DMG closer. This is a really nice buff.
My feeling is that their new "range in which damage still counts" makes ultras a lot stronger against units that derp around on the back of one another, such as zealots or zerglings.
So possibly a big boost in advantages against melee enemies, but didn't really notice much of a diff against marines.
They have less surface area so take less damage
I like them being better, but the fantasy of them being humongous is also pretty great, and just being smaller *feels* wrong.
So you’re saying give ultras colossus movement. I’m 100% on board
I mean, I agree but they were a lot smaller in StarCraft 1. They're still huge in comparison
Well it's a good thing the real scale mod exists so lore-accurate ultras can be had.
@@Tobeh unless you can attack them by air attacks its not balanced
Hopefully they don't get stuck at anything now
I didnt even knew there was a recent patch, nice
In an Ultra vs Zergling, should matter too: smaller Ultras get surrounded by less Zerlings, thus take less damage
an incoming patch, not yet in game yet, in PTR atm
Also, because of a smaller size, lings would trend to clump up together because of the extra space that ultralisk would give them, dealing damage to more lings at once
Interaction there would be the exact same as zealots.
The ultras patch reduces their size by 12.5% meaning less derping trying to reach target and they got but of their slop range increased aka a increase to how far a unit has to run away from ultralisk to cancel their attack.
Less surface area for melee units to attack it too, which is why it beat the Zealots at the end.
A big part will still be the micro though with the increase in damage slop. I'm probably more interested in that than most others just because I know they deal no damage when chasing most even half quick units, on or off creep. Maybe that will completely change now and I'm curious. Also it's very clear that the increased damage density is a good stat improvement.
What is damage slop?
@@tehli6726 if you start running from ultra during animation and you manage to run far away, the animation cancels doing no dmg…the distance at which the animation cancels was increased…so you have to run further away
@@jakubkrchnak5172 gotcha, thanks dude
@@tehli6726 Well, I hope you like reading. This is my understanding of it: 'Damage slop' is a distance characteristic of attacks that says you need to move ex. 1 range unit (1 tile) from the max range of the attacking unit to not receive damage from it. In this patch the change the 'damage slop' of the ultra's attack from 1 to 1.4 (the ultra's attack has a range of 1 btw (separate concept)). Another characteristic important to understanding 'damage slop' is the 'damage point' of an attack. This is the time it takes for a unit to shoot it's attack. The Thor for example has a very high damage point as shown by how long it takes for it to shoot targets within it's range. Similarly the Ultralisk has a modestly high 'damage point', I'll guesstimate 0,6 seconds. If the attacked unit is able to run a distance above that of the max range of the attacker + the 'damage slop' of the attacker before the 'damage point' then the attacked unit takes no damage. So if we have an ultralisk on creep chasing stimmed marines and catches up to them it will take 0,6 seconds for it to damage the marine. The stimmed marine can probably run 1 tile during this 0,6 second timeframe and will thus never take damage from the ultra's attack despite once having been close enough for the ultra to start swinging it's blades. So by changing the damage slop from 1.0 to 1.4 the marine needs to run 1.4 tiles during 0.6 seconds making it a lot more likely the ultra will deal it's damage. I don't know for sure if the stimmed marine will still be fast enough but I know for a fact it is with the 1.0 value. Seeing ultras 'attack' but never dealing damage makes no sense so fixing that is basically the goal of this change. Alternatively we could have a unit with a damage point of 0 giving no time for a unit to run out of range but that would make stutter step micro look dumb and you can basically kite anything as if you were just walking the unit instead of this micro slowing you down due to the damage point needing to be reached every time you attack. Stalkers for example have a low damage point so having 2 stalkers next to each other basically means 1 will kill the other, no questions asked but with 2 thors one thor can always run away as you can't stutter step something with a large 'damage point' value.
@@jakubkrchnak5172 if say, you have a bunch of zerglings and the specific zergling that is targeted by the ultra runs out of range of the attack, would the other zerglings get damaged? Imo they should with the ultra attack finishing, but eh, blizzard decides in the end.
The video I didn't know I needed, but I really needed.
My goodness your little battle sims are nice after a big patch!
"size doesnt matter" - ultralisk
*smaller is better
Them beign slightly smallers gives them two advantages:
*There can be more Ultras in the frontline AND fill gaps more easly.
*They are a little harder to swarm. Zerlings and Zealots benefited from their big size; now, they lose dps against them as there are less units attacking at once.
Their smaller size, however, comes with a weakness: splash dmg. They can be more easly torn to shreds by the AoE attacks of Siege Tanks and alike.
Splash dmg weakness seems unlikely, they are still quite big
Yeah, I think Ultras are still big enough that targeted attacks like siege tanks won't splash outside their unit model
maybe disruptor aoe, but that explosion range was also reduced by 16.6%. storm was never very effective against ultras, either, so i don't think the patch will make ultras worse in any situation you'll ever encounter in the game.
@@chezeus1672 If I can remember correctly, storm was NEVER intended to ever be used as an effective counter against Ultras, it was more meant to be used against swarms of Zerglings and squads of Marines.
Itd be interesting if you recreated a matchup from the past that was affected by the patch. Like something with hydras, carriers, etc. Be cool to see the impact
Hydras wouldn't be effected by this type of test. The movement speed and increased stutter-step ability is only really manageable when actually controlled by a player. The carriers, however, would likely fare worse in any match now that doesn't account for micro.
I don't think there are any units in the patch other then Ultras and Carriers that would interact differently without player input. Most of the changes are not based around flat stat values so much as changes to how players can use them. Well... maybe Brood Lords? If you put them up against a strictly ground army?
@@lo4tr ahh gotcha. I misread the hydra changes. Thanks for clarifying
@@taters9722 No problem. I had to read the patch a few times and watch like four different people go over it to really understand what half of it meant.
Seems like a small buff to the ultralisks itself, being able to fit more attackers in a smaller space, but Is it a bigger buff if you have other smaller units who could maximize that space buff? I think banes and lings get a lot more synergy with ultralisks now. And maybe they stop getting pushed around and stuck behind the army, especially behind ranged attackers.
Also the model sizes look the same, I guess they are just comfortable being closer together now! 😊
No its the biggeat buff they ever get, now they can actually get to the front of your army and deal with MMM
it's like i always say: size DOES matter, the smaller it is the scarier it gets
the smaller the better personality
yup and with mine being so small, it scared her from coming back. confirmed buff..
@@fonniefarkles7770 lol! Nice
They're still bad though wdym? I'd much rather spend my gas on Lurkers in any matchup
there's nothing I can do. 2 inches is the best I got. being asian and all.
Amazing what a size reduction does in macro battles.
I love how the overlords are watching over the ultralisk fight as if they watching a gladiatorial battle or promoting survival of the fittest
Marines still win even after the patch, while zealots die to the patched ultralisks. Marines are superior. Eat lead, aliens, hehe.
Marines OP
They didn't called Marine the Hero unit of Terran for nothing
I think the 12.5% less size meant to help ultralisk when they are going through ramps and stuff. I wish there was some kind of test using old vs new patch putting 50 ultras up a ramp.
You can just try getting ultras through your zerg army. Most of the time the old ones cant even go befront of the army to tank let alone chasing the MMM
I feel like adding weight to the game would make them better. If they could bump ennemies to CC them and move around allied units more freely, they'd behave more appropriately hopefully?
Having a unit in the game that is supposed to be massive requires that the mass be considered in the design.
In Total War Warhammer, there exists a weight system that makes certain units act in different ways in melee than others, making them better or worse when charging into battle or disengaging. It's pretty convincing, but Total War games are very different, much slower paced than SC, so I don't know how feasible something like that would be in SC.
SCV shows up.
SCV: I ain't cleaning that up!
"We cannot fall!" *immediately falls*
Increase range slop from 1 to 1.4 (range target can move before miss) as well.
This just taught me that an even smaller zergling would make me scared and sad.
Also would be something id love to watch, seeing a 12.5% size difference to zerglings
Perfectly smooth editing very well done
Overlord : *I dunno I'm not a doctor*
Cool! Now they only need to bring their size back up, but scale HP and damage to a point where 1 square mile of new ultralisks does the same amount of damage and has the same HP as 1 square mile of old ultralisks.
This was cool to see the comparison. I don’t even notice the difference in size
Lower size means less units require to circle them, but also less melee dps when we circle them too... So it's a better ultralisk, probably, since they are more ultralisks on the front line too.
Prepatch : Ultra dies to everything.
Live : Ultra dies to everything.
0:20 my godness thats bloody.
I guess thats real life.
Interesting when we see pigalisk ?
The what?
@@bernardoheusi6146 mini ultralisks from WOL secret mission Heart of darkness
@@starcrafter3488 (It's called Piercing the Shroud, actually.)
@@momom6197 sorry , I’m from Russia ,in our dubbing they are called like this
And what are the stats of It?
marines: great news guys, uktralisks are now smaller.
Zealots: oh no
1:41 this is what hell must sound like
Patch also changes Ultralisk Range Slop from 1 to 1.4 (range target can move before miss). - This is a buff to Ultras and makes them harder to micro against...but it isn't a change that is going to be noticeable if armies only attack-move into Ultralisks with no micro anyway.
Zergling sized Ultralisks pls
It is also necessary to experiment against splash damage such as siege tanks and mines.
I mean the main point of the change is so they fit through buildings and chokes more easily, so throwing them at units in a wide open field isn't really a demonstration of the change.
You can probably fit more ultralisks side by side to give them a slight edge.
Another huge change for Ultralisk is the anti-stutter-step time for their melee. I'm not sure if that game engine would simulate that, but it would be neat to see how much better the new ones are.
Wow. Unironic knowledgeful battlesim XD great vid
They also perform better in tighter spaces like ramps and between production buildings.
Finally the ultras won't be fucked by pathing. I think this will be a wonderful buff for the unit
The damage is more compact without losing much (if any) reach of the melee attack (I believe it even got bigger, but I don't know if that is cancelled out by the smaller size.) Anyhow, I am not surprised the new ones do better in melee, would have been nice to see how they hold up vs. more intended options like stalkers, marauders, or immortals though.
I heard from other comments that the attack range got slightly bigger (even offsetting the overall size change), but mainly that makes it so melee units have a much harder time literally walking out of the Ultra’s attack while the animation plays, which apparently could happen easily if the units are being micro’d. 😅
People seem to be saying that the slop range is the distance a enemy unit needs to run away from the ultra for the ultra to cancel it's attack. I'm not sure if it affects the distance that other units take damage from the aoe of the attack. I would assume that the aoe of the attack got smaller as well? The zealot fight doesn't make it look like that though.
@@LoudWaffle Base range is the same, the range you have to run further away from ultralisks to cancel the attack animation is increased, meaning they have to run further than 1.4 range away instead of 1 range away.
Cool and useful info!
What the voice at the end ?
How do you generate it ?
Great Vid !
new Ultras seem better then before. Surface area due to size reduction maybe? its close tho, might be a good update
Dang! You fast 👍
Now we can request a zealot buff.
They're going to be so much better now when attack in chokepoints and when being kited
I kinda wanted them to patch in an upgrade for the the Noxious Strain Ultralisks from Heart of the Swarm, oh well, maybe some day....
Странно, но они реально эффективнее. Поразительно что ТАКОЕ изменение реально изменило юнита.
Now this is a cool video
This is awesome! What does the red/blue thingie symbol mean?
I still in some ways like the older Ultas and them doing more damage to buildings but I am sad that they removed that
Great idea for a video. Love it.
Would be cool to see with a few of the other changes too. Disruptor, Brood Lord, Carrier
Also dang I love these dialogues. 😁😁😁😆😆
Overlord: the ultralisks are colliding! Let's see how magnificent this fight is! Look at ultralisk number 4! It's killing!!! It's killing the!!!! Nevermind ultralisk number 4 got killed!!
This is good and all, but their range slop was increased by a massive 40% and this doesn't test that at all.
That new Ultralisk seems a bit more detailed. Blizzard out here trying to make Starcraft 2 run worse for me smdh
I feel like they're basically the same. It's a start, but IMO like 30% reduction is needed
The overlords are back!
yes coz we need Zerg to be more op, havnt like 8/12 years of SC2 patches been Zerg favored?
I liked the fact Ultralisks were these giant clungy units
The ultra vs ultra battle just shows how OP this buff is (or nerf, in size at least)
Not really given they still have the same damage output as each other, this change isn't so much as OP as it is just replacing a problematic part of a project and just making it smaller, so it fits perfectly now.
Less size means more ultras can attack the same target or can deal more aoe damage cause are smaller
And in the case of the zealots, when surrounded are actually taking less attacks (less ultralisk “surface area”).
I think Ultralisks must reach the same movement speed that can be achieved in BROODWAR.
Oh, you mean the speed upgrade that was by default for the Torrasque, that shit was funny not gonna lie but I don't think the SC2 community as a whole including the ZvZ players would want to have that again, they still have their Cracklings, they don't need Cracklisks on top of that.
5/5 this time. Somehow it was easy to predict the results
I thought the new patch ultras had less dps due to being smaller and having less area, but actually new patch ultras both clump easier and have an extra .4 range, which actually increase its maximum damage potential instead of decrease it
Huh.
Zerg finally has usable tier 3 units and people are crying :)
I wonder if Ultralisks joust one another regularly
A moment of silence for the ultas that died in the making of this videos...
The change is great for the unit but I am going to miss giant ultras :(
Ot should be mentioned that not only does Ultra get size decrease they also gets a range increase allowing new patch ultra to hit slightly further.
It's not the attack range increase but the range slop, meaning the target unit has to run further away to cancel the animation. Previously, it was 1 range (same as the base attack range), it becomes 1.4. So ultras will attack the target at 1 range, but the target has to run further than 1.4 to cancel the attack animation instead of 1.
The overall splash damage radius is the same. The changes is based on how far the initial target of the attack gets in order to cancel it... considering the units here don't run it would be near impossible to see how that difference actually works.
not gonna lie i had no clue while watching this what the "new patch" even was XD think the new patch is overall better though atleast via the fights :)
The difference is marginal. As a Zerg player I know it's too good when played right. We'll still never use Ultras unless we're already winning so it changes nothing. The Viper changes should be looked at more.
There are around 4-5 "marginal" change in the current that that has shifted toward Zerg advantage, stacking them together give Zerg a good lead comparing to the current state.
Isn't it weird that in melee vs melee, zealots get crushed despite being in such colossal number, but marines did far better while being so much cheaper? I know the range is important, but this is ridiculous.
"Range is important" Yes, yes it is.
Consider how many units attack at once:
The marines have 4 or 5 ranks of shooty boys, and are more densely packed.
The zealots have only 1 rank, sometimes sparsely filled since zealots at the front die all the time.
Range matters a lot when A-moving a lot of units. That's why 2 zerglings eat 1 marine but 20 marines gun down 40 zerglings.
Shooty boys in the back can shoot, stabby boys in the back gotta walk. Makes a huge difference.
Melee units benefit greatly from surface area in fights, but it doesn't matter much to ranged units. So the size difference of the ultras could mean the difference between 4 Zealots attacking an Ultra at a time and 5 zealots attacking an ultra at a time, but the size difference barely effects ranged units.
@@momom6197 I am fully aware of that, but even so, it is still ridiculous.
The mineral cost of zealots was doubled of marines (and only a few extra ultras were added in return). One would assume that so many zealots could easily surround big units like ultras and focus a lot of damage on them. Yet marines outshined them soo hard.
The difference doesn't seem to be that noticeable (protoss will never have 400 zealots and zerg will likely never get 24 ultras, cant remember their food cost if its even possible). New ultras dont fare much better against marines, only killing a few more, and zvz is close enough that micro can probably turn the tide. I'm not taking the video literally, in the 24 vs 400, but if the difference between new and old in that large scale fight is so very small, it will likely have very little impact at a smaller scale. Like if shooting 500 bullets out of one weapon and 100 bullets miss, shooting 500 bullets out of an improved weapon and 85 bullets miss. I'm more curious how snipes getting canceled if the enemy moves out of range works, and whether ultras can feasibly be microed away during an enemy snipe - is it a buff to ultralisk survivability or really only meant for very fast units such as zerglings?
2/4. Not counting battle 2 because I thought it was the battle 3 matchup.
Did these tests include the range slop increase??
No, range slop doesn't do anything in the head-on fight unless the targets keep running away from ultra's attacks.
Now do old and new ultras vs marines in a tighter area with a mineral line and/or partial depot wall in front of them :)
I wanted to know what these changes meant for our favorites meat balls
Do you have access to those cyclones with the tiny cluster missiles?
Awesome
If initial condition is the same, will result be the same?
Bro so all games after today will be different ?
I don't understand why some of these match ups are even made, some of the numbers seem like you just threw a dart at a board and went with that.
I think they should have kept the model size the same, but the collision size smaller, they just look so wrong being this tiny. Pretty sure the current Ultras are already downsized from lore accuracy
The thing with the patch, is this experiment you set up really doesn’t showcase the real power of the size reduction. The main thing is how they will interact with an army around them
Does that make them slightly more vulnerable to AOE? Or are they still big enough for that to be a non-issue?
I've tested it a bit and If it's mass ultras it's still a non-issue, but when they're a part of a mixed army composition it can be noticeable. That said, your army probably still ultimately takes less splash damage in most fights because they're more able to get in front where they belong instead of being stuck in the back with your ranged units, your armies won't clump as badly anymore.
It would be funny if you could shrink them to zergling size. Is that possible or do you only have the two versions to work with?
That’s already a unit, Pgyalisk from wings of Liberty campaign
Feel like you’d have to Atleast make them duel each other more than one time to get an accurate representation of how more better or good they are ahha in my opinion ofc 😅
This video doesn't show it, but new ultras are better vs kiting units as well.
AAAaaaAAaaaaaAAAAaaaaaaaaAAAaaAAaaaaaaAAaAaAAA (zealots)
So, are the Ultralisks labeled Current the ones with the reduced size or is it the Ultralisks labeled New Patch?
Current is the current patc
new patch is the PTR(public test relm) in which the Ultralisk size was reduced by 12.5%
Great patch. Gives them a buff but based on this, it’s nothing too extreme. Just enough.
Moral of the story here? Don’t send your zealots to fight ultras.
Okay, now Blizzard can also return 90 hp for hydras, regeneration for mutalisks and infested terrans for infestors and maybe zergs will be able to return to ladder
Except those are always there in the game but the infested terrans, that one can go to hell.
I would call them Tinylisk
does starcraft have a brawl feature or is this a mod?
And the biggest effect will be seen when kiting, so not even what we’re seeing here.