Politics in Games - All Media is Political - Extra Credits
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- Опубликовано: 21 мар 2017
- We can't remove politics from games. They express our perspectives and understanding of the world, just like movies, books, or any other art form. We can agree or disagree with the stances they express, but all media is political.
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We can't remove politics from games. They belong there.
I agree with everything you said, except one thing: "we are mature".
ArGG! because I'm failing to think of an example right now, what would you consider evidence to support your statement "works can be apolitical"?
Exactly. People should have choice, and being forced to do political stuff would be a pretty terrible decision.
I was trying to think of a game that didn't have any politics in it and I think the (New) Super Mario Bros. series fits the bill. Is it true that that series has no politics in it?
Maybe pong?
"The purpose of a storyteller is not to tell you how to think, but to give you questions to think upon." Brandon Sanderson, 2010.
While making your audience think which questions and which context is already giving away a position.
You can't ever have much of a neutral position.
Ironic.
"All media is political!"
Alright guys welcome back to my cookie clicker guide. Today I'll be showing you the 777x cookies per click effect that you get from a golden cookie combined with an auto clicker
Just a small correction. The X-Men didn't start as a civil rights movement analogy. That was built upon later, most notably by Claremont's run.
That is why is considered as the Second Father of the Xmen Comics.
Uhhhhhhhhhhhh
The analogy also completely breaks down when you realize that minorities dont have world ending superpowers. As far as I’m concerned, mutants SHOULD be registered.
@@scottydu81 On the other hand, do mutants commit more than half the murders in the X-folx universe? Maybe the parallels are closer than the creators intended...
@@AltereggoLol1 Despite making up 13% of the Marvel roster…
I've played all 3 "Just Cause" games. Covert is not a word I would use to describe Rico Rodriguez.
Covert doesn't mean unseen. Covert means deniable. Clandestine means unseen and hidden. Rico is a deniable actor for the government and is frequently forced to work without official support from his "clandestine" agency. For anyone not "in" on the whole "agency" bit, Rico is effectively a crazed mercenary that works for whoever hates a standing government in the places he goes. War is his business. Sure some of his equipment defies the laws of physics, but those are for gameplay reasons more than for being provided by the clandestine agency bent on assassinating people. This of course ignores certain dlc items which are added because they're silly and they think people will buy them.
He's covert in that he isn't acting explicitly and openly as an American agent.
Grappling hooks, RPG's, and wingsuits mixed together don't really lend themselves to subtlety.
Thatsthejoke.jpg
In JC3 it's an overt revolution. Everybody knows Rico, to the point it's immersion breaking.
"Keep Politics out of something" usually means "Keep politics I don't like out of something"
Davesknd Something I've noticed is that it only gets political when it's a view you don't share.
+Davesknd Indeed. Many people don't realize that everything is influenced and shaped by political and philosophical ways of seeing the world.
That is the core of the idea of 'normal' or 'natural'. Things that match someone's view of the world is simply the way it is, while views they do not share seem 'political', because they are differnt than the natural order and thus would not be present unless they were explicitly added.
"keeps politics out of ____" is literally code for "why hasn't this group of people I don't like been silenced yet?"
Well, that's pretty accurate.
I would really love a follow up episode on "how (maybe) to do politics in games" That sounds like fantastic idea
Upvote!
The answer is simple don't focus on the politics unless the player has choice, Stormcloaks and Empire, Paragon Renegade etc, if you forcefully preach a view in a game then that game is nothing more than propaganda
"The answer is simple don't focus on the politics unless the player has choice, Stormcloaks and Empire, Paragon Renegade etc, if you forcefully preach a view in a game then that game is nothing more than propaganda"
That in of itself is very limiting. For example, in Bioshock series you don't have a choice in how the story goes, yet the message against objectivism and religious extremism are prevalent. Those are both really great games.
Saying people should have a choice almost sounds akin to saying "don't make people feel uncomfortable". Sometimes the lack of choice can serve as a powerful tool in story telling.
+Ares Krieger I strongly disagree. Is the fountainhead propaganda? Is Catch-22 propaganda? Both of these books take political stances, but they're not propaganda, they're art.
Art can and often does have a message. Art can have a political message. Usually, stories are about sharing the artist's viewpoint on something. That's not propaganda. We engage with art to be able to see into another's mind. People create art to be able to share what's in their mind.
Forcing every game with political aspirations to play to "both sides" (as if there are ever only two sides anyway) is really limiting.
I said don't focus on the politics, not don't have the politics. There is a difference after all, the Bioshock series doesn't hit you over the head with politics rather with the idea of choice itself.
"All media is political."
What are the politics of pong?
Ping pong ended Cold War.
the politics of candy crush
When people say they want to keep politics out of games, I think they really mean they don't want to be attacked for their beliefs on controversial issues. Most of the political games mentioned simply don't do that, which is why people don't consider them political. For instance, FF7 very much has an environmentalist slant, but the world has been so seriously and obviously messed up that even the most staunch global warming denier would agree that something has to be done in that case. It might make them think about their position, but it won't feel like someone is demonizing them.
Also, nobody wants to be told what to think. When a game or piece of media tells you how to think, people reject it on principal because they don't want to be told what to do. Rather, a good piece of media will present scenarios to audiences and let the cards fall where they may. Good social commentary is built around building up that scenario to accentuate your position while giving the audience agency to come to your conclusion by themselves. The animosity towards "politicized media" is animosity towards media that forces viewpoints, whether through shaming or enforcing.
...but human-caused climate change isn't a controversial issue from any scientific standpoint.
shinra corp. are the people denying the ruin they're causing the world to make a dollar. just like exxon-mobil, BP, et al. Gain political power, spread denial about it, and you'll get people believing it over actual scientific evidence.
+magicalfeyfenny Err, BP and Enron were behind the Kyoto Treaty. Global warming suits oil companies perfectly, as they get billion dollar contracts for scams like methane fuel (which is a much more potent greenhouse gas), and the bills against them do about as much as the miles of tax law which are riddled with loopholes.
And if you're suddenly going to attack people who disagree with you, when we're trying to discuss the matter of NOT attacking people for disagreeing with you, take this to mind:
risk-monger.
com/2016/06/08/how-to-starve-africa-ask-the-european-green-party/
rationaloptimist.
com/blog/electricity-for-africa.aspx
Stop enslaving Africans and impoverishing them, for the sake of this Global Warming idol. I'm sick of hearing people saying that disease killing Africans is a good thing, as it reduces the surplus population.
Climate change isn't controversial for most of the world outside the US, and video games are a global market.
Ozone Deterioration, turned Global Cooling, turned Global Warming, turned "Climate Change" includes whatever the hell you want it to. War, famine, floods, storms, hurricanes, to squirrel behaviour (yes, someone tried to link his study of squirrels to global warming to get more funding--and it worked). That's why the city of Venice is no longer populated, having flooded in 2015, because of global warming.
This shockingly convenient ideology, that begun with a group who already blamed technology for corruption in society, has lead to all sorts of crime, indecency, and even the glorification of the death of Africans by malaria.
If there were no politics in games, how could I play Democracy 3?
With the Power button, so you can reset your system and play something else.
I think what some people mean when they say they "don't want politics in media" is when it is presented badly, heavy-handedly or as a black and white issue.
I think you summed up the whole debate.
They mean very controversial topics, I think. The problem is, anything nowadays is controversial.
Yeah, I think that's what people need to learn. They're saying one thing without realizing that they mean something completely different.
No what it really means is "Keep politics I don't like out games."
If the politics are killing Nazis you don't see anyone complaining about how it's "one sided" or "heavy handed." These are dog whistles to avoid saying "I don't like that this game is pro/anti whatever. It's a way to suggest the game should remove these elements but without saying "this disagrees with my politics."
palladin9479
"How can I relax if a I can't be a dick to trans people without them responding? Why can't all writing just worship me the player? "
Dragon is an M game so children shouldn't be playing. Further, unless you don't show a child any media or teach them anything you are exposing them to "propaganda." Just because you agree with the message of Cinderella doesn't mean it's not "propaganda"(In your vague empty sense of the word).
The problem with many games people complain about is, in my (layman) opinion, that they talk politics at you, are not subtle in introducing them, and/or use the medium or a well established franchise to push a political narrative that doesn't work in the context of that game or that game's narrative. Politics is most certainly allowed in games, but how some political statements have been handled in games as of recent is just horrible
I think it's just that the bar to entry has been lowered so much for games that poorly-made and/or poorly-written games are coming to the forefront.
This is very true, but I don't think that's the main complaint of those who want 'politics out of our games'. The people who want politics out are not upset at a medium being heavy-handed or lacking subtlety. They are upset at media that challenges the accepted status quo in which they are set to benefit from structural inequalities. They don't want politics out, they just don't want anything critical.
Exactly this, It's not that anyone thinks we can entirely remove the EC team's definition of politics from games, it's that we want those designers to stop trying to be political because they very clearly have no idea what they're doing. (And haven't even watched the episodes alluded to about 1/4 in to the video or put in an equivalent amount of time's thought into the subject)
@@welwitschia you need to stop sipping the cool-aid bud.
What people mean when they say, "keep politics out of games", is that they don't want games that are obviously preaching at you. Think of a game more focused on its message than the game itself. Like a bad peta game or something, and less of examples like the ones included at the end of this video.
Superiority complex much
No, I'm talking to the guy who says every centrist is an ass.
"I'm fucking better than you"
That's what you sound like, you fuzz bag.
the problem is, you're very unlikely to even notice politics you agree with. I think basicly every shooter is preachy as fuck, full of jingoist, nationalist bullshit an racist bullshit, but that's not obvious to everyone.
I don't think media should remove politics, but I think politics seriously needs to be taken with more nuance and tolerance. Problem isn't that politics leads to conflict, the problem is politics leads to separation and black and white thinking.
The solution is for people to discuss politics without hostility, which is honestly is very difficult to do and define what hostility is.
Very well said!
Loek Gerrits A shithole? Dude the Netherlands is in the top 20 highest GDP per captia, has a very low crime rate, and is much safer to live in compared to the US.
derstreber2 Kicking the shit out of fascists doesn't make you a fascist.
Supporting militant ethno-nationalism makes you a fascist. And fascists need to get the shit kicked out of them.
look buddy if a persons political stance implies that I should not exist or should be killed then I don't feel bad about smashing their face in
Why should I or anyone else tolerate a political position that actively advocates for taking away my rights?
when i'm playing super mario, i'm always thinking about toppling a imperialist regime when i jump on da turtle
I mean, the whole "male hero rescues the princess" trope is definitely not apolitical
@@madelynzamecnik920 also it’s pretty anti fascism with how bowser wants to rule the world or something
Strange, I always fantasize about building an imperialist regime when I play Civilization!
@@alwest4472 nah, Bowser just wants to b ng. Both Mario and Bowser are just doing what they're doing so they can get Peach's "Peach". It's canon
"As the political divides in our world has become increasingly pronounced. More and more frequently on message boards, forums and steam reviews. I've seen the demand that creators, writers, and reviewers keep politicts out of games. That is not possible. *All media is political.*"
...so... Minecraft, Pacman, Doodle Jump, Candy Crush, Copter... and fucking Tetris have political statements?
I think more accurately would be that every *story* presents a worldview
As Mr Enter said, what's the political bent of Minecraft? Solitaire? If all art is political, what's the message of the Windows XP background? If you're finding a message there, you're projecting one.
I think more accurately would be that every *story* presents a worldview
Ah yes, tetris. My favourite political alegory.
All you build up in life is about to come crashing down on you.
@Marcus Mysteriously What else do you expect from a game made in the USSR?
“I have no choice in arranging the blocks
Under Bolshevik rule what they say goes
The rule of the game is we all are the same”
@@Loregamorl
In Soviet Russia, the blocks rearrange you!
@@Loregamorl And our blocks must create unbroken rows
So I have a problem with both ends of the "is everything political? debate:
On the "yes" side, can you explain simplistic & frankly absurd games like Pac-Man or Snake? Was there some artistic trend driving these that I'm not aware of? Because I struggle to conceive of what "politics" could be driving them. Incidentally, could you please provide a definition of "politics" distinguishing it from other factors of culture? I see no reason to say that just because something is affected by culture, this means it's also affected by politics. For example, "Press O to Jump" is cultural in the sense that it's an arbitrary programming decision made because that's simply the tradition, but does that really have anything to do with politics?
On the "no" side, I think there's a lot of strawmanning. I see a lot of comments like "someone will force a political narrative even if you don't want to." But this misses the point they proverbially bolded & underlined, that political content is not necessarily a intended "message." Like they said with the example of the change in targets of shooting games, that likely wasn't any intentional statement, but it nonetheless represents a shift in our view of "America's enemies." That's hardly an outlandish theory. Incidentally, a lot of these posts seem to have a very narrow conception of "politics." Something doesn't have to be an overly elaborate Game Theory style rant with a fringe leftist stance to be "political." Something as simple as a country recovers from a war so suddenly all of the art they're putting out is really cheery & optimistic is a political effect.
of course not everything is political, but everything that tries to give a message is. What moral lesson can you learn from Tetris, or Pong, or even songs like Despacito? Many types media just exist for being fun. And there's nothing wrong with that.
@@sebastianz.g.4191 question, how would you define the concept of fun, and why?
I know i am late, but heres my argument, pacman is political por one single reason, it is new art, so, by way of being allowed to exist its very existance is political
If it's impossible for a piece of media to not have politics, then please, what are the political messages in Pong?
when people advocate for "apoliticism" in games, they generally don't refer to the precense of politics, but rather the precense of overt 3rd person omnescient perspectives meant to intentionately lecture you and instill bias on what could have initially just been an objective portrayal of 2 sides of an idea. Such a lecturing can be done in a myriod of ways from excesively long out of place monolouges on the same issue from a disprportionate amount of npcs portayed as being "morally righteous", rpg games not letting you have access to or even communicate with leaders/ supporters from one side of a prevelant political divide, politically biased statements on loading screens/ in-game text, marketing bias, etc.
can you give any examples
I don't think people who say they don't want politics in their game really mean it in this way. I feel like this is something most people understand on some intuitive level.
I think most people who say they don't want politics in whatever from of media are inarticulately expressing the idea that they don't want to feel preached to or lectured by their media which goes back to the idea in this video about how "on the nose" a particular piece of media should be.
I can understand too. Even if I agree with a political message I don't like being hammered over the head with it. Eventually you just start thinking "Okay, I get it already!"
the problem with that idea is that a game being "preachy" isn't an inherent property of the game, it's something that exists in the relation between the game and the player. the same game can be 100 % unquestionably natural and uncontroversial to one player and blatant propaganda and extremism to another. it depends on the cultural and ideological context.
therefore "just keep out the preachy and on-the-nose politics from games" reduces to "only make games that aren't controversial to ME at THIS TIME AND PLACE".
Strideo1 Having a LGBT character is considered "on the nose" by many a-holes and other gamergaters type of gamers. For most people, it's just as normal as knowing LGBT people in real life.
The whole "on the nose" argument is just another thing, where no one has a clear definition of what that means.
ChevaliersEmeraude being breachy is when you have an LGBT character that does not add anything to the gameplay, mechanics or narrative. They just there to blatantly to fill the check list.
@@warhammervietnam5770 can you give any examples
Smith Finland I think a good example would be the last of us 2.
5:27 That sure worked out for Blizzard, huh?
That's the first time that I realized that the name "Just Cause" also means a cause that's just, and is not purely a response to "why did you strap a rocket to a cow?"
Ugh… that’s just a shortening of the word “because”. The game title’s meaning is the proper usage of “Just Cause”
Imagine if Bioshock didn't say anything political. Yeah, really boring story isn't it?
then what is infinite? conservatism gone too far?
Infinite is jabbing at the idea of American exceptionalism.
I was waiting at one point for him to say something like, "Even games that are considered completely removed from the political sphere can be extremely hardline in its ideals. Take a look at Minecraft."
Return to steve
Wait... Is Minecraft political?
Nhilism
Yes capitalism
No not all media is political.
Any game which has a narrative inherently poses and posits a worldview which is inherently political.
@@mnm1273 Pls just go to bed you drolling child.
@@mnm1273 So then you agree that not all media is politcal?
@@nunyabusiness8000 I wouldn't call a game without any narrative media. Media inherently demands communication. Tic Tac Toe isn't media even if you code it onto a computer.
"We can handle politics" HA, hilarious joke right there.
I now realized I misinterpreted this video...
I wanted to add an example. Bayonetta
NOT IN THE WAY YOU THINK
Bayonetta, whithout noticing, is a perfect example of the ways shinto beliefs make their way into japanesse works that are based on western properties.
Bayonetta's mithos are heavily based on Dante Alighieri's "Divine Comedy", in the sense that the world mayor forces are divided on Inferno, Paradiso and Purgatorio (Although Bayonetta depicts the third as the empty "in between" space in which most battles are fought in the human world.
Here's the thing, in most works that use the "Divine Comedy" system, beings associated with inferno are unredeamably evil by default, while Paradiso is where the good and rightous live at, and the world must live by the principles of heaven (Fortitude, Temperance, Justice etc)
Bayonetta takes this into a "Ying/Yang" system in which beings from Paradiso are not "necesarilly" good and beings from Inferno are not "always" evil, but when one side tries to take the upper hand, the "balance" of the world is threatened. This is a very eastern viewpoint that has influenced eastern asian politics for centuries.
Same thing with Atlus
But none of that is political
@@adriantorain7418 If you show Bayonetta to a hardcore Catholic I'm sure they will find something political about a witch killing angels
Anyone here after the MrEnter video?
I wonder how many such people will dislike this video and/or post a hostile comment without even watching...
I could say this on every one of your videos, but man your visuals are so great! They always elegantly enhance what is being said while also being witty and funny. Your artists are doing an absolutely killer job!
Totally. The one frame with the screen projector just had me baffled. So much detail on the light and shadows. Good stuff.
Sunshine Recorder
3:07 mouse is connected to the keyboard. KILLER JOB ARTISTS!!!
(just kidding, i love the art)
+Shahar Korren
I really liked that frame and wanted to mention it, too. :)
I remember, my old Mac keyboard (The one I had in the mid-2000's) had USB ports on the sides.
It's all so clear now. Crash Bandicoot is a cautionary tale about the dangers of evolution.
Dangers of evolution? What? Evolution is a natural process that cannot be stopped.
You are literally an evolution of your mom and dad.
@@Thor.Jorgensen It's called a joke.
Ah yes, because I totally remember Super Mario Bros being about the struggles of slavery and capitalism.
Coins give you extra lives in Mario games. Capitalism is life. Fight on.
@@amwoodco3049 lol
@@amwoodco3049 but coins are everywhere and infinite so communsim?
Games are another medium of perspective, or art. They can depict whatever the developer wants to show.
Also, very cute Super Game.
i found this in only twenty minutes.... wow
btw you guys at extra credits have inspired me to build a multitude of games
If all media is political, I have no idea what Lewis Carroll was trying to tell me with Alice in Wonderland.
He was high i presume
I can name several games that dont have politics in them. Animal crossing,kingdom hearts, fire emblem awakening,the sims,mario, there are so many games that dont have politics in them.
Ok so, I have a lot I want to say in response here so I will try to keep this somewhat organised and readable without just being a spew of thoughts.
First, I want to address what I am assuming EC mean't when they said "all media is political". "All media is political" doesn't mean "All media has a political agenda or message they want to get across", they are more saying that "all media is in some way a byproduct of politics, and is effected by it". I get that a lot of games don't have an distinct political ideology or concept they are trying to promote, critique, inspect, discuss or whatever, but they are at the least a byproduct of our society, which is defined by politics.
Pretty much everyone these days has this extreme fear of the world "political", which is fair enough since the way modern politics are discussed is pretty toxic and unproductive, but for the sake of properly understanding what EC means by "all media is political" and being able to use that concept to better approach understanding games and to not be so poignantly repelled by the mere word of 'politics'
But since you have a list of games you claim involve no politics I want to go through and explain at least 1 element of them which is political.
First, since they share a lot of similarities I'll put Animal Crossing and Sims together. This one is really easy, both of their worlds run on capitalism, money is a thing that exists that can be earned by working and spent on goods and services and people can own businesses (see Tom Nook or any of the other shops in the animal crossing town) and property where the quality of your life is determined by your income, that is a political ideology. The games may not be advocating for or against or discussing capitalism or anything in anyway, but it exists in the game.
And also in case the thought was crossing you mind, representation of an idea is still technically politics, why do you think so many right leaning people call foul when a game features a racially diverse cast of characters for example? Or a game features LGBTQ+ characters and suddenly it's seen as "queer propaganda".
It doesn't mean that Animal Crossing or Sims is going to affect your political views, but just that they do have political aspects to them (albeit minor and unimportant ones)
Mario's insistent on having the male protagonist Mario rescue the female damsel in distress Peach in almost every game reinforces the patriarchy which is a social attitude that is present in the game, and social attitudes are what often leads to votes which in a democracy is what leads to changing of policies.
Also the mushroom kingdom is a monarchy since it is run by royalty (unless that's called something else and I am being silly)
If I'm being completely honest with Kingdom Hearts, I don't have enough of a understanding of the story to talk about it at all, but I do know that you visit many Disney film worlds, and I know in one of the games you visit the world from Mulan and that whole film is about going against traditional gender roles, which is political.
And last but by far not least, Fire Emblem: Awakening! One of my favorite games actually.
This one, unlike the other games you listed actually goes have several political topics it brings up and discusses, rather than just having them exist.
I could almost talk about something political in every character's support with every other character, which imo is a example to how well FE:A handles the discussion of uncomfortable ideas.
Let's take Lissa and Chrom for example, rank C support conversation, likely on of the first ones many players will get since you start with both characters.
Which not directly discussing the idea, Lissa talks about if she is fit to be royalty, because she feels like she doesn't have the qualification or skill to do so, which is built upon the idea that in a monarchy (I still really hope I am using that word right) people are born into royalty and power, and that maybe people's birthright shouldn't determine their ability to rule over an entire country.
What about the overall story rather than just support conversations, first of all it's about a war, a power struggle, that is already something you can't get into without delving into at least some solid politics. Ylisse has a lot of anti-militaristic beliefs, especially from Emmeryn and The Shepards, where as Plegia is a struggling country economically trying to use war to gain power for it's people. Now we have the topic of if countries should support their neighboring countries because it's the right thing to do, or even to avoid conflict, Gangrel made a pretty big point about how Ylisse does naught to help them in their plight and is a pretty self-serving country. On top of this, Ylisse has a pretty deep rooted xenophobia of plegians (see Henry's supports).
Oh, what about the willingness to die for something you know is wrong based on patriotism and unconditional loyalty to your seniors due to blackmail they have on your family, sounds an awful lot like what they have going in North Korea yeah? Well in the chapter after a certain character falls off a cliff and Chrom + gang is attacks by a plegian army while escaping, it was made very clear that many of the soldiers there were against the idea of fighting Chrom, especially the leader, who you have to kill because they are trying to kill you and they experiencing 'patriotism and unconditional loyalty to your seniors due to blackmail they have on your family'.
Point being, Fire Emblem: Awakening is very political, and I just remembered all of that after not having played the game for 2-3 years.
While technically not *every* game could be realistically be defined as political, like pong or tetris, for the most part, pretty much every game is in some way.
Closing statement:
The point, or at least my interpretation of the point from this video is that there is no magic switch to say "is this game political?" that goes on and off depending on what the game features, it's just a matter of "how political is this game?" which does change from culture to culture and how strongly it pushes it's political elements or if they just sit in the background. So if you believe that a game is arguing for a political idea that is outside of the norm for you or makes you feel uncomfortable, try figuring out why that is rather than just arguing that the issue is that it's political, not only will you discover more about yourself and form a stronger, more nuanced world view, you will be in good stead to keep this more positive attitude when approaching things in the future.
I hope this explained everything clearly, let me know if you have any questions or want to correct/dispute me on something.
If we’re looking for the best example... I would think... everyone’s choice of faction in New Vegas would do.
every video you guys make is golden, keep up the great work
I think a distinction needs to be made between the academic (deconstructionist, maybe?) understanding of "political"-- that is, anything delivering some form of human viewpoint or operating in a social context-- and the common understanding: dealing -directly- with controversial issues or the business of governing/management. This issue is not going to get any closer to being resolved as long as the word "political" is ubiquitous and essentially mundane to some people, yet fraught with bad connotation to others: not necessarily "views I don't like"-- I think that's a strawman-- but also indicating the presence of pointless, heated bickering or ulterior motives-- as suggested in a phrase like "workplace politics". But at the same time, there's not really another word for it either way. Hmm. I think even just saying "everything has shades of politics" is a step in a better direction because, as other commenters noted, it acknowledges that there's a sliding scale. And there is, and there should be. This is a really interesting and worthwhile topic, and I don't think it helps anyone to suggest-- by, ironically, a statement that carries more baggage than its proponents perhaps intend-- that Angry Birds (which has vague anti-capitalist/revolutionary undertones if you squint, but is essentially about manipulating basic physics to pass time on the bus) and Papers, Please (which has overt political themes delivered masterfully through its medium and is essentially about provoking thought) are somehow on the same level. Making a statement of the political value of an entire medium both oversells and undersells, neither of which is helpful to anyone struggling with this issue one way or the other. (Btw, you can replace "politics" with "narrative" here and the sentiment still stands). This lack of functional nuance also comes through in your conclusion, which doesn't show a middle ground between wholehearted support and passionate dissent of a work. If anything is healthy for our medium and world, it's espousing that people should be able to acknowledge and discuss a work's themes and ideas, whether they're accidental and secondary or intentional and focused, without necessarily turning that work into a combatant in a warzone. Our problem when we simultaneously juggle "everything is political" and "politics = fighting" is that everything becomes a weapon or a battlefield or an enemy at all times. I sincerely hope that the very smart folks at EC will try and be clear about these distinctions to inspire healthy thought. :)
what many people really mean when they say "keep politics out of games".
they say: someone dissagreed with me and i cannot handle that/ do not like that.
(i would love to see a study representing the partisan difference in this stance)
dude!!!, you really have one of the best in videogame theme RUclips channels!! thank you very much for all this art made video 😇
From what I can gather, demands to "get politics out of games" is a reaction to heavy-handedness in games wherein the political message seems to impede the gameplay and/or enjoyment thereof.
Two examples that come to mind involve identity politicking: Assassin's Creed Syndicate and Baldur's Gate Siege Of Dragonspear
AC Syndicate's identity politicking comes in the form of Ned Wynert's status as a trans man, a decision made for no reason other than "representation of tansgendered peoples in media." While it doesn't mechanically harm anything, it does come at the cost of the "historical accuracy" within the narrative and makes itself more obvious by its inescapably conclusive intent.
BG Siege Of Dragonspear is a lot more obvious. It add jokes to Minsc at the expense of Minsc's already established character. It completely changes Safana to the point where she is no longer recognizable. In several points, it alludes to a disdain towards males with favorable tones.
The mechanical impediments, however, were due purely to technical reasons. Rebuilding an engine from scratch requires a lot of bugfixing, not all of which they were able to accomplish.
Which game companies market exclusively to hetero teen white American males?
What does the hetero white teen American male demographic have to do with anything, then?
Maybe Russians are, instead, an even more profitable market, and maybe they have other things that they like to see in games.
... since we're going with the realm of possibility and all...
It just struck me that the changes to Safana actually did worsen the mechanics of how the player interacts with the Dragonspear.
NPC interaction (combat notwithstanding) is a common mechanic in roleplaying games, much more so than in other genres. Especially in Dungeons and Dragons, said interaction often is a means of achieving objectives as an alternative to hostility.
Dragonspear is by no means a stand-alone game. Its narrative exists explicitly as a bridge between Baldur's Gate 1 and 2. Consequently, it falls easily within the jurisdiction of "canonical consistency." Because ts narrative has to bridge the events between BG 1 and 2, the characters also have to bridge the incarnations of themselves.
Safana of Dragonspear is a divergence from the canon of BG 1 & 2, and thus, the mechanics of interacting with her have changed. However, this change is never explained within the game, leaving the player to have to re-learn the parameters of interaction with her new personality. Similarly, any player that plays the trilogy in the newly prescribed order would have to re-adapt to an unexplained return to form in regards to her.
Dungeons & Dragons lives and dies on it rules, and by changing the methods of interaction in regards to Safana, Dragonspear impeded the rules, thus impeding the mechanics.
If all media is political, then what's the politics of Garfield Kart?
Theocratic.
Ggdivhjkjl explain how
Metal Gear Solid comes to mind. Amazing games, pure anti nuclear sentiment, and they're better for it.
I’d say it’s also an overall anti war movement
And deus ex
I will agree that ultimately everyone loses from "removing" politics from videogames. However I strongly disagree that all games express political views.
While every piece of media represents something, it doesn't necessarily directly spreads a message from it. Because in the end, while an artist might have the intention of sending a specific message or idea, the viewer will take whatever interpretation or meaning out of it at will.
For instance, Bayonneta. She is heavily sexualized, and some people will see this as degrading to women and a way to make more money from horny men, while others will see it as empowering and related to her background in witchcraft and part of her character, independently of what the creators intended.
Another example: The Lord of the Rings trilogy. Many people pruposed many different ways on how it expressed certain ideas, or how it was an allegory and had connections, for instance, with Religion. Which is something that Tolkien firmly rejected: It was just a story. And yet people saw in it the meaning and the message and the ideologies THEY wanted to see, that the author did not put there.
Many games can simply be telling a story or providing fun and/or interesting gameplay. The truth is us humans will see meaning and messages even where there isn't one intended, and that doesn't make the game "political", in my eyes.
I guess my point is, just because you "can" extrapolate a certain meaning or a "view" from a game, it doesn't mean that meaning, message or view were placed there intentionally. Sometimes settings are just that, settings, not political commentary. A game or series that happens in a fictional world with a certain type of government, for instance, isn't necessarily a commentary on that type or a parallel type of government, it might just be part of the world building.
Ultimately I think the issue comes down to what one means by "politics". I would assume the majority of people who say they don't want politics in their games, actually just means that they don't want games that are heavily pushing a specific political agenda in unimaginative and blunt ways, without the clever and interesting ways of getting the players to think about moral and ethical dillemas or political situations and ideologies and the like.
Kolvarg I was going to leave a comment, but you pretty much managed to take every single thing I thought of and beat me to the punch. Beautiful job.
I'll agree that not all creators are motivated by politics and may not intentionally place politics in the games they create. Unfortunately they cannot control how their works are interpreted and/or used, be it for fun or as an example of side X misrepresenting side Y for cause Z. Their creation takes on a life its own. In the face of this, I find most creators to be brave, as it is possible that what you have said or the game you created is used it ways that harm the causes you support.
The distinction you are making is between explicit and subconscious politics. The reason you feel this works is because you are only seeing it from a single perspective. Yours.
Subconscious politics will inevitably become explicit politics for some portion of an audience because of our differences.
If I just want to make a standard hero's story RPG without any complex moral themes. Basic good v evil. Really simple tale. I want to put a little romance in the game because hey that's what stories have. I'm bisexual. I give you at least two differently gendered options to choose from. I may not intend for that to be explicit moralising at the audience, or advocacy, but just by reflecting my personal experience, plenty of people will read my simple little hero's journey game as an explicitly pro-LGBT political statement.
My point is that the wall people like to put up between Explicit and intentional political messaging and implicit/subconscious politics breaks down as soon as you have an act of creation and an audience of more than 1 for that creation.
Seems like if you say "different meanings can be interpreted so nothing can express a viewpoint" then suddenly *nothing* is political.
you can make content without an agenda, but it will always have some political meaning...
people will eventually dig it out, one way or another, whether you like it or not
There is a difference between political games and politics in games....
I would like to know about the political nuances of the award winning video “Awesome Popcorn chicken.”
finally, thank you for formulation and straightening out thoughts i had for some time now. now i can finally not think about "removing politics from games", but rather argue and debate how they should be presented. thank you for this mature approach, which allows me to take a look at what i think and what i feel and figuring it out.
I think when people say they want politics removed from games what they mean is that they want propaganda removed from games. Take something like Bioshock for example, which is as political as it gets in games. It shows us a world where libertarian ideas have been taken to an extreme, that soared to unimaginable prosperity for some, and fathomless despair for others. However, as the story unravels we begin to realize that the people who claim to fight for the downtrodden are in fact just feeding on their misery to make a grab for power themselves. The final boss is not Andrew Ryan, but Frank Fontaine. By the end of it it's lambasted basically all extreme forms of politics. It shows that having no compassion for the weak in an attempt to unleash the full potential of the best and brightest creates a lot of angry people, but also that those people are easily exploited by convincing them to fight for equality only to install yourself as their dictator. It's a highly political game, but it's not preachy. It basically throws Ayn Rand and Karl Marx into a mudpit and has them duke it out till they both look like pigs.
A bad political game is sothinfg that thinks for you. A good political games is something that let's you think. If you don't think about the politics in Bioshock, it's just a FPS with super powers in an underwater city
Bout time someone explained this properly. People have this weird idea that politics is something abstract that doesn't "really matter" to anyone, and not, you know, something closely connected to the personal interests and feelings of everyone.
well said
Agreed. You feel the effects of politics everywhere. Just because you ignore it doesn't mean its not going to effect you. I've always hated the whole I hate politics followed by I don't follow it. As an adult you should at least follow it since it will effect your daily life.
The vast majority of the people were never and are not interested in politics. They are interested in having their needs fullfilled, beginning with basic through everyday to luxury.
Back in the day they would revolt if their basic needs were not fullfiled taking what they need by force or extortion (in rare cases changing who ruled over them)
Now they've been handed an illusion of power over the politics of their nation by the means of democracy, and they keep shifting between light shade of red and light shade of blue parties every few election cycles. No change is ever made, which makes people disillusioned with politics.
TL;DR: Any political system makes people disillusioned after a while, but democracy has the added bonus of breeding apathy.
especially since ther are no democracys on this planet (at least no big ones/on a country level)
explenation:
a goverment type is defined by the govenring body not the way said body get into power (the latter would be the descriptor like "Trade republic", "elective monarchy" or the like)
a Democracy is defined as the Populus of the country ruling DIRECTLY!!
what we have are republics (country governed by councils) they might be peoples republics since the populus votes on the councils but they are still republics (and yes that also goes for our british friends... a monarch without power is not a monarch)
i dont know why everyone is so fixated on the D word... its an awefull system.
also even the republics are failing hard... i mean here in germany we have had over 50% nonvoters in the last local elections and similer numbers in the elections on the country level... im sorry but any system that is supposed to represent the poulus with THAT kind of satistic should realy take a good look at what is going wrong. (and dont get me started on the american election ^^)
Though politicians in most 'democratic' countries do in fact vote on legislation proposed to parliament.
Which is 'democratic' in isolation.
Then again, wasn't democracy actually a term that meant 'rule by the wise'?
That's quite different from the modern idea of what democracy means...
1:30 nice half-life reference with that "valve"....
Shit, how did I not notice that?
ms nikos, you probably didn't notice because your mind is scattered through the wind above Beacon
Rudy, that was the best comment ever. Of all time.
Fantastic look at politics in games. I was thinking about this only a couple of weeks ago, and this has put words to my thoughts. Well done!
who could forget such classic politicized games like frogger, bubble bobble, and connect 4
The Metal Gear Solid series is packed full with politics.
Your point?
Politics in gaming is fine. Makes the world more believable.
No it's not
@@dwayneasher6765 you said nothing to disprove what he said. would warhammer, avatar the last airbender, halo, be as fleshed out and believable if the people and organisations who inhabited the world have no ideologies or beliefs?
Thank you for making this video. I've tried to explain this to people so many times in comment sections across the internet.
Great video as always, everyone! And I am surprised and refreshed at the general flow of conversation in the comments. Seems you did an excellent job communicating here, EC. ;)
When people say ‘keep politics out of games’ they mean that they don’t like the fact that politics are shoehorned in or down badly
Also games like Tetris, Cards against humanity are examples of how the political beliefs of the creator has little to no effect on the game
The problem is that when they say it, it's too broadly sweeping.
The political beliefs of the Cards Against Humanity creators are extremely impactful on the game.
@@krasmasov6852 Depending on what your group finds funny the politics of it can send the players in any direction
Yes, precisely! One of my guiding principles in my own game development comes from interactive fiction author Emily Short: "Every piece of media conveys a message, whether you mean it to or not. So think about what you're saying." I'm glad that gaming is finally reaching a maturity where it's more likely to take that responsibility seriously.
I notice that games by individuals or smaller teams tend to convey their messages more coherently than most games by large studios. Even tightly auteur-driven big projects like the BioShock or Metal Gear games rarely convey their political messages as sharply as solo-developed games like Papers, Please, Undertale, or Depression Quest. And it's no coincidence that the crowd that calls for "getting politics out of games" only started noticing the politics when individual developers from different backgrounds started making games that expressed different perspectives so clearly.
Of course, it's not impossible for a big studio to convey an coherent message - see the original Fallout and its dark and nuanced satire of American idealism and delusion in the cold war. It just requires a very clear and well-conveyed understanding of the core idea, and for the people in the studio to buy in and think about how their part of the work can reinforce that message. But that gets harder to manage with larger teams.
thank you so much extra credits i really really like your vid plz never stop
You guys are just so awesomely on point with the discussion on games... AWESOME!
X-Men is not about the civil rights movement. Creator Stan Lee even said so.
Metal Gear's brilliant Anti Nuke message.
An excellent commentary and thorough explanation about political and cultural influence on, and integral place in, games. You da best Extra Credits!
well, it's been uhm... 19 days and a Switch has appeared on an Extra Credits video. It's a win xD
Something I find fascinating is how a mismatch on political thought can result in media being immersion breaking. Not long ago I was reading a new author and I was really enjoying their work, till I encountered a central character that was right out of the political rhetoric of a group I stand against. Spaceships: find. FTL: fine. Character drawn from currently used political strawman that I find ridiculous? Immersion breaking.
I doubt the author was trying to make a point or even thinking about it, but instead was simply pulling from an archetype that is talked about in their peer group as 'well of course this type of person exists, it is one of the reasons we are against X', so for them it was natural to include such a role.
Because political difference is a difference in worldview. This means that for different people with different political views their perception of what's realistic will be different, because they see different things as true
This is putting words to the general idea I have been trying to articulate for a while now. Thank you for doing it so well!
Cars Simplified in general when someone says to me that we should remove politics from games, I just ask him if he would say the same if it supports his side of the debate.
Most of the time that works good enough since removing politics is for a lot of people not about that but about removing the politics he/she doesn’t like. Good to have this knowledge under my belt too tho
Way to go, discussing politics from a centralist point of view! Keep up the great work, Extra Credits!
The argument people make is that they don't want every game to be political.
The argument you are arguing against is that no media should be political. An argument no one made
You would be surprised.
I'd go so far as to say a game or any piece of art for that matter needs a clear message and overarching theme to deliver its story as best it can. From Portal to Papers Please to Undertale, the creator (a human being) knew what they wanted to deliver on from the onset, and succeeded.
Yes, but.
1) games too often ignore the cardinal rule of writing: show, don't tell. H.G. Wells didn't tell his audience "you should be a socialist": he created a scenario that demonstrated to them the merits of socialism. Don't tell me what I should believe, show to me why I should believe it. Bioshock is a good example of this done right: but there are a lot of games which do it very badly.
2) avoid pushing the entire agenda of a single political party. This is called a propaganda game, and nobody likes that. Not even the people who agree with you.
3) if it looks like the real world, I expect it to work like the real world. Some political opinions are based on fantastic notions of how the world works. When designing mechanics for real world games: use facts and evidence. I can't tell you how many realistic games I've played which had obviously political errors in their mechanics design.
4) if you are going to make a game that is about politics and set in the real world: set it in the past. Rome: Total War made a lot of political points that were very relevant when it came out: but nobody could get offended by it because it was set two thousand years ago. This also helps with point #2, as even modern political parties that have existed for a long time (such as Britain's Tories) didn't have the same agenda in the past that they do now. It's also a workaround for point #3, because you can make the mechanics of your game reflect how people believed the world worked rather than the way it actually does. Drawing an analogy between the past and the present can be a good way of making a case for a particular political ideology.
5) If you want to wholeheartedly endorse a particular philosophy then do so in a fantasy or sci-fi setting. If the world is obviously fake: then you have full license to decide how it works. I'm not Catholic, and generally I disagree with Catholic dogma: but Lord of the Rings can't offend me even though it's obviously based on Catholic dogma. It's not the real world, so it doesn't bother me that it reflects an ideology I don't agree with. If you must push a political agenda, this is the way to do it: just as if you must push a religious agenda then this is the way to do it. This is a very good way of making a case for how the world *should* work.
Chrono trigger remix!!
When will you make a full episode about that game? It probably deserves one
A few days ago i saw a video in which the creator said that people should stop putting politics in their games. And I was thinking about linking them to your video on the topic. Only now I find out that the video i remembered you having made was actually in the future at that point.
I could've sworn there already was an extra creditz video on the topic.
If anyone here hasn't read *Dune* or *Ender's Game* if you have any interest go for it. To me Dune felt like a world as mysterious and deep as GoT but packaged into a tiny book, I only wish the world could have been explored moreso. I saw the movie of Ender's Game first and while I thought it was ok the book completely blows it out of the water. I almost wished I hadn't seen the movie after reading it it was so good.
If you delude yourself into thinking you are apolitical, all you do is open yourself up to be *blindly* political. A lack of self-awareness that is likely to make you say some really embarrassing things.
There are plenty examples of unconscious bias sticking out like a sore thumb. Watch their Call of Juarez: Cartel video for a great example
What do you mean by "blindly political"? If you mean making political decisions without a party, why would that be a bad thing? Wouldn't what a person's saying actually be more representative of what they think if they are as little affiliated with a party as possible? Or do you mean not exposing yourself to politics and then saying political things without knowing the context to them?
@@wooba849 my interpretation was closer to the second one. I think he's saying that removing yourself from politics leads to things like Third-Wave feminism and postmodernist socialism, where people probably wouldn't agree with a lot of stuff if they actually looked at both sides of the argument, instead of just hearing what the MSM tells them. Same goes for fundamentalist right-wingers quite a bit.
Thank you for this video! We're about to go public with a game in which politics play a huge role and we're certain that there is going to be lots of discussions about this topic. I'm bookmarking this video, it'll sure come in handy in the future.
Well done. I've always been impressed with your videos, and this is yet another that shows how balanced your representation of the issues is.
I think in the past years there have been some incidents that were sparked from a ideological political viewpoint that did upset people up to the point that they alienated.
1) articles stereotyping gamers as white, male, .. divided the community
Gamers are people that love playing videogames. Those articles created a stereotype and at the same time othered everybody not fitting that stereotype. Once you have divided people into groups it is hard to heal back into one.
People got shoved into groups and were assigned traits - individualistic people that love games because they can make their own choices might not like that others make choices for them.
2) bad criticism
Applying social science theory that applied to film to games by cherry picking examples and ignoring other genres, games, ... and again creating a trope about games that a person at TED talks about "when you’re still making billions of dollars off games that maim and dump women for sport". Where people think its news that you can choose your sex in fallout 3, ...
3) Bad implementation
Honorary game character "Hi, I am gay."(nothing plot wise,..). PR advertising that they have introduced political thing X,Y,Z (e.g. gay, black, ...) Again some type of othering. If this is something normal, you don´t talk about it. You do not talk about a white character, why talk about a black one. Write a good story!
Civ and alpha centauri do not sell themselves are green(TM) games. PR at that time might not have mentioned environmental stuff - but they have rising sea levels if you pollute too much. RTS games implement finite resources, but they do not refer club of Rome.
Out of curiosity where are those articles that stereotyped gamers? The most common one I see referred to is the "gamers are dead" one but if you actually listen to whats being said its giving the exact opposite message. But then peple got mad because apparently making games that aren't pandering solely to straight white cis male virgins is "taking our games away"
There is also such a thing as shoehorning politics in a story where they don't belong, though. Like with any medium, there's a right way to do things and a wrong one.
There is no such thing as a story without politics or implicit beliefs/assumptions
Guys, sometimes video games are only games. Maybe there isn't a deep political message to every game
@@swissarmycheese8117 Ah yes, Saints Row. The Gangs are so political.... right? Johnny Gat the fascist. Maybe you're conflating the difference between politics and stereotypes. What's political about Max Payne series? Nothing. It's elaborating the corruption of the Brazilian police.
Politics is one of my favorite discussions to take part in, and games and other media are great for me because I can see and discuss politics without other people feeling uncomfortable at the thought of an argument starting
I also imagine you can't remove politics from games because, like art, the player applies their own perspective. So even if a political statement isn't made intentionally it's entirely possible for players to perceive one.
Sure, all media is political. But too often, that statement, noble and important as it is, can create a false equivalence.
All art is by political, because politics is just one aspect of our view on the worlds, and you cannot have a piece of art that does not express a view of the world, because even the simplest thing must tie into a viewpoint. Overwatch, for example, shows concern about government inefficiency and bureaucratic red tape, along with racism, what drives extremism, how do people's attitudes develop, etc.
However, there's a difference between something that is political because it has to include some aspect of a worldview, and something that is political because it is devoted to expressing that worldview.
Quite often, when someone wants to take politics out of media, what they REALLY want is "Less political commentary." Which is a different thing.
Let's look at last year's animated Oscars for Best Picture. Of the ones made in the US, you had Zootopia, Kubo and the Two Strings, and Moana. All three of those are political, in their own way. But only one of those three films was EXPLICITLY political. And personally, I loved Zootopia. I think Kubo was the better film, but I did like Zootopia. But Zootopia is a political movie, it's about race relations and bias. Kubo is about the power of storytelling. Those are both 'political,' but only one is political in the same way X-Men is political. The fact that Fifa 17 features a child of an interracial couple as the main character is political. But it is substantively different from the way that NBA 2k16's racial tension and pressures of inner city life is political.
When someone says they want things to be less political, I think it's fair to remember that, yes, while everything is political, a question of degree still exists. And people get tired of the DEGREE of politicization in games. Especially when, let's be frank, game stories tend to be sub-par, and bad writing plus intentional inclusion of political viewpoints tends to make things even worse.
Because the real thing is, no-one wants to be preached at. No-one likes a story that seems to exist just to hold up how great a certain view is. And so when someone say something is "Too political" or "Should stop focusing on politics and just focus on making a good game," then they're saying they felt condescended to and preached at.
And let's face it, not everyone WANTS to be engaging with political controversies every moment of the day. A lot of people use games to take a break from that. And it can be frustrating to not have ANY escape. Everything is about politics, and frequently, about hammered in metaphors that take over the storytelling.
Yes, some critics of that take it too far, and do appear to be covering up their dislike of the political viewpoint, with the request to "Stop being political." Simply having LGBT characters is frequently interpreted as "Being political," even if those characters don't spend all their time talking about how being LGBT has led to oppression and such, or characters spontaneously insulting them for their sexuality just so we know how EVIL those people are. But we shouldn't tar all complaints with the same brush.
5:54 Yo can someone expand on Just Cause's commentary on covert regime changes? Cause I missed out on that on account of all the fun blowing up stuff. Was it only in the first one? because I skipped that one.
That is actually the commentary it makes: Rico as a character is a CIA operative sent to bring "liberty and democracy" to countries rules by backwards regimes, but all that ends up happening is meaningless destruction of vital infrastructure that ruin the lives of the average civillian living there, and Rico never once is reprimanded by CIA or his government. This is a Parody of how CIA are not known for their Public relations skills when "liberating" countries. (Cough* CIA operations in South America during the cold war *cough*)
oh okay! cool! Thanks for sharing. i guess it makes sense why the game mechanic "chaos" had so much importance then lol
I have been waiting fifteen years for someone with a major voice to say this.
The "oh no" Cards Against Humanity bit is just perfect 👌
A story can't be crafted without polity.
that isn't true tho
I think people who want “politics out of games” generally just want:
A) not to be hit over the head with the dev’s politics. Refer back to your own “Propaganda Games” episodes.
B) not to be ripped out of the experience by something that wildly diverges from the narrative, because the dev felt like making a statement. Oh hai _Battlefield_ .
C) not to feel personally attacked. For the love of Arceus, games are not Hollywood. People really hate the perceived disdain for “the deplorables in flyover country” from TV and movies. Games as a medium don’t have nearly the seniority to get the benefit of the doubt, and have had to grow up in the era of internet-fueled controversy and hot takes. Witness the blowup over _Far Cry 5_ for an example.
I was pleased to see the Switch in one of your animations. Very cool.
3:50
Two games I like got recognized.
YAY!
**angry the act man noises**
"all media is political" the numa numa guy?
Consumerism.
?
Harri Totally. Many people saw other fat men differently because of that guy.
Ideas with parallels to reality shape opinion, and that's politics.
multiculturalism an American guy rocking out to a Latvian song
the numa numa guy ranges under the media of the internet and the internet is political
Given how bat-guano crazy everyone online has been lately, I was really worried about this video. I was really impressed, though, at how you were able to talk about the topic without resorting to talking about the specific current thing everyone is currently divided on, and more over acknowledging that it is ok to passionately disagree, as long as you're civil about it. Keep making the great content, guys.
I want to see an examination of the politics of Pong.
I ask not to provide a counter-example, but because I expect greatness from that prompt :D
I have yet to find an Extra Credits episode to disagree with. Keep up the great work guys!
What is the political message in Lego Batman 3: Beyond Gotham?
Good point, I never really though about it before but you're right, all media is poltical regardless of other factors, even trying to take politics out of a game is a political statement in itself.
I am glad to have found this video. I am doing a speech on culture and it's relationship to politics. Do you know any good sources for me to use?