I upgraded my A7III for the A7IV and was very happy shooting the aurora with it in Iceland. Was good to see that the A7IV does have similar noise results to the A7III when taking into account the A7IV is 9 megapixels higher 🙂
Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. I really like this in-depth nerdy stuff that combines math and physics with photography. Awesome video Alyn! 👏
Great video Alyn! I really enjoy these technical videos and would love to see more. I'm constantly inspired by you and your amazing images, so keep up the great work!
Thank you. Nico Carver's video on SNR is very good, but your explanation of the two types of noise and why newer isn't necessarily better helps to clarify things that much more. I love the images I'm getting from my 10 year old camera, but I am wanting to upgrade, but only for the better features offered by newer cameras. Adam Woodworth's book was the first place I read information on the "sweet spot" for image resolution for nighttime photography, so I'm more than happy to buy a gently used mirrorless in the 20-30 MP range.
I am a terrestrial landscape photographer. Over the last twenty years I have been calmly telling all my foto-pals that the real advances with digital capture are to be found amongst dedicated astrophotographers. I was right.
This and your ISO Invariance presentations on the different models of the Sony models should be a first view of any new or old Astro Milky Way photographer! Today's SW is so good noise is no worry. Going from A7S to A7iii was scary with more pixels but turned out great with ISO Invariance but the cream on top was bright monitoring that was also in the Mod 2's (no one ever mentions in reviews).
Decided to send my Nikon Z6ii out to Spencer's Camera after talking with Clarence on Wednesday (and thanks to your great explanation about mod types in this video). Used your promo code above as well as the free shipping back promo code he told me about while on the phone ($62 US saved, thanks for saving me $30 of that!). They got my camera Friday morning, and it was already in the mail headed back that afternoon! You weren't kidding with your promo code's discount plus priority service! I did the visible + H-alpha mod, removing the AA Filter, reinstalling the dust reduction system and installing the heat reduction system. So excited to try it out! I mainly use that camera for Milky Way photography, but I also do some deep sky imaging with it through a Redcat 51. Clear skies and happy holidays!
I recently upgraded from a Canon 7D Mark II to a R6 Mark II, and while the overall image noise is much better on the new camera, I’ve found the R6 to have a much bigger hit pixel problem at long shutter speeds. What have you found regarding hot pixels and the newer cameras vs older ones?
Enjoyable, informative video. What do you think of the new Panasonic Lumix S5 II camera paired with a F1.4, either a 24 or 50 mm camera 12:25 lens. For star tracking what about a Benro Polaris vs a traditional star tracker. I will be buying your book.
Hi mate great content, I’ve been a hobbiest photographer for years but am being drawn into astrophotography and your channel is the main driver!!!! Would you recommend full frame or aps-c for an all around astrophotography. Thanks
Another great video! One thing I want to point out is when you mentioned the a7iii vs a7iv read noise comparison, you didn't mention the considerable difference between the size of pixels of the two sensors. I'm not a subject matter expert with this, but it would seem to me that having a similar read noise between the two sensors despite the significant difference in pixel size makes the IV a significant improvement over the III?
Dude you are awesome. Excellent explanation and delivery of everything in this video. Like that rain bucket analogy is perfect. You make this nitty gritty technical stuff super easy and your delivery of this content is enjoyable to understand.
There's always something to be learned from you. Predominantly shooting from my bortle 9-8 backyard kinda forces short exposures (right?). I have one full frame Canon 5 D MK IV, 2 crop sensor Canons. REBEL T7i is astromoded. Canon's have a problem with ISO invariace, from information Peter Zelinka mentioned, and my own research. I'm giving some thought to a dedicated astro camera. This starts to get confusing. Where's the sweet spot? Am I better off with a lower resolution crop sensor. All this stuff I've read elsewhere confuses the heck out of me.
Great informative video - Thank you! Knowledge over gear. People often say I must have super expensive camera, my response is I have 2 and I can still take same photos with your cheep one lol
All very interesting. Would you say that moving from an ISO variant to an ISO invariant camera is a potential upgrade on noise performance, all other things being equal?
From what I know, I would say no. ISO invarience only plays a roll with your abilities in post processing, and not really with the actual performance of the camera or the actual ISO performance
Very good explanation of SNR. I've seen a lot of videos about it but you put it in a way I've never heard before. I have a Nikon z6 II and I mostly use my 20mm f/1.8. They only way my photos are going to improve its by buying a star tracker. I do use adequate to help reduce noise. I have Denoise AI that helps. I was planning on getting a star tracker last spring but I didn't. Maybe next year will be the year.
For performance and wider aperture, the Sigma, it has better stars, less aberrations. For size/weight, the Sony 😊
2 года назад
Thanks so much for this video, you explanation are cristal clear. I still have two questions: 1/ Doesn’t aperture count a lot when using a telescope? 2/ What about stacked sensor, does this technology be better or worst about noise?
While it is kinda true that noise performance per se isnt really improving, sensors overall improve. 60MP Sony sensor is on par with 12MP sensor. Real difference is the area on which you compare. Im pretty sure that timelapses look quite same when you are sample both A7SIII and A7rV to 8MP. Overall landscape astrophotograhpy differences lie more in the dynamic range rather than simplified noise comparison. Some cameras perform really bad on lower stops of the DR, some are better. Then also comes in thermal noise which is different on different cameras. Cameras may share the same sensor but thermal noise isnt identical because it all comes down to different designs. Some bodies dissipate heat better, some are really prone to thermal noise in long exposures. My Fp and S1R have pretty much identical noise performance even though S1R high-res. But S1R has more thermal noise and is more prone to it. Fp has a heatsink and tolerates more. In 30C summer heat, Fp outperforms S1R. In -30C winter cold, both are the same. While A7III may be a good camera and there may not be any noise differences compared to A7IV, some other aspects might be improved which overall provide better performance? Looking at charts and data do not do justice to any camera. Real SNR depends on more factors and isnt really dependent on the resolution. Get out, try and compare them in different real world scenarios. Maybe newer camera improved shadow area DR? Maybe newer sensor improved color performance? Maybe newer camera improved thermals?
So really increased Iso doesn't add noise to an image, Iso trades dynamic range for brightness/gain. Noise depends entirely on SNR, which is dependent on how much light is gathered during the exposure. Which is why stacked images work better, because your increasing the signal. So when people tell you ISO controls the amount of noise in the image, the reality is noise is controlled by aperture and shutter speed. Iso is more of an instruction to your aperture or shutter to under expose the sensor because it will make it up with gain. I hear so many people say Iso increases the sensitivity of a camera, which makes no sense because increased Iso has less dynamic range making your camera less sensitive(precise) to subtle changes in brightness.
Enjoyed as always your pictures and comments ect. I was wondering i live in Florida USA and plan on going to one of our dark sky places in earlier April. I currently have Sony A7Riii with a 20mm f2.8. Would it make a huge difference in getting and using a wide lenses of lets say f1.8 or even a 2.0 instead for my milky way shots.? thanks
Thank you Alyn for this helpful information! I really love your channel and your videos are amazing and your images are brilliant (even if captured during night time). Please continue creating more videos. A big „thank you“ from Germany, Nico
Only thing unmentioned is that front element size for a lens also plays a role. Just as with telescopes, increasing the lens size can be a way to capture more light. Also like with telescopes, the camera becomes a lot less portable.
Front element size doesn't matter in itself, you can have a small telescope perform fantastic. The focal ratio of the lens is what matters as it refers to the ratio of light per sensor area. Bigger telescopes are only for having a longer focal length at the same speed.
@@admiraloctavio5860 Perform fantastic is a relative term. A small telescope is not going to perform fantastic compared to something of similar quality and configuration that is 4x+ the diameter. Bigger telescopes are not only for longer focal length and speed. That is a backwards interpretation. Long focal lengths need to be larger to maintain speed. The reason that most aren't interested in a 26cm diameter 14mm telescope is because the interest is near nonexistent, the performance absolutely is going to be better in low light.
Thanks for interesting info simplified enough. But anyway should I upgrade to A7iii from A7sii? I know i will gain a lot during daytime (AF performance, newer processor, faster scrolling, etc.), but will I loose a lot in the night? Or should I think of making two steps forward approach looking for A7iv?
The a7III is an increible all-round camera now available at a great price. The question is, do you want to pay the extra money for a flippy screen and a new menu layout.
@@jpmissdeNice stacking process could be considered a way to collect more light, but the overall data you capture strongly depends on the exposure duration of the single images. But stacking is mainly for image noise reduction.
Single image with an exposure of 30sec will have always more noise than a single image of 2min but it is also true that even a single exposure of 10min will have more noise than a stack of 5 image with 2min exposure, it's a matter of noise averaging as the latter has a random behaviour. Also the thermal noise of not cooled camera adds a new variable in the equation, so the longer you expose the more you have thermal noise that will ruin the data.
No. Stacking itself cannot collect more light but rather averages out the noise from each photo resulting in considerably less noise in the final image.
If you're at the brienzersee now, I hope you'll get some clear night skies... unfortunately, the weather forecast doesn't seem the best :-( apparantly, above 3000m you'll have the best change for clear skies...
Once you go starry sky Autofocus, you wont go back to fumbling in the dark with FF electronic 'manual' focus. Cameras still need improving by a lot, dxo software can fix the rest.
I currently have the a7rIII and was wondering if upgrading to the a7rV is overkill or could bring more noise because higher resolution. Btw, My a7rIII needs the multiport repaired
Thanks for the useful information. One day I will upgrade but for now I'm still having so much fun with my canon 600d which I picked up for £50. Sony maybe one day!
Is Photons to photos chart really comparable. Page itself states: "These raw values are not appropriate for comparing camera models because they are not adjusted for area."
It’s worth getting A7IV more than A7III because of flip screen. Being a landscape photographer in both day and night, not having flip screen is such a pain in the arse.
My upgrade is also going to be a downgrade, age wise it's a downgrade with me having a 4 yr old 200d and looking at going to a 6d which is 10 yrs old but the upgrade is ff sensor and pp of 6.6 compared to cs and pp of 3.7. It's of course budget driven before people say why not go to the new R mount and tbh even a 5dmk4 is out of my budget, I can get a good secondhand 6d and 2 good secondhand lenses for less than a 5dmk4 body let alone an R5 or 6 etc.
This is why I quit jumping on the band wagon every time these camera companies come out with a new camera. How many megapixels do you really need? No surprise they aren't improving noise. There isn't a camera or lens being sold today that is worth what these camera companies are charging.
#WITNS December is delayed sorry guys!
No problem sir we will manage it 😜
For the two types of noise they are the same even in Timelapse photography?
it’s fine with me i have your book. relax for a minute 🤙🏼
Good to know, I was beginning to worry that something had happened to you :)
RIP Thank you for unselfishly sharing your knowledge and passion with the rest of us. Rest easy, may you always have clear skies..
I upgraded my A7III for the A7IV and was very happy shooting the aurora with it in Iceland. Was good to see that the A7IV does have similar noise results to the A7III when taking into account the A7IV is 9 megapixels higher 🙂
I learned something! 🤯
And I really need to start reading that book 😅
Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. I really like this in-depth nerdy stuff that combines math and physics with photography. Awesome video Alyn! 👏
Wow Alyn, that was a wonderfully elegant way to describe a complex subject. Thank you.
One of the best, simplified explanations of noise I have seen. Nice job explaining.
Great video Alyn! I really enjoy these technical videos and would love to see more. I'm constantly inspired by you and your amazing images, so keep up the great work!
Thank you. Nico Carver's video on SNR is very good, but your explanation of the two types of noise and why newer isn't necessarily better helps to clarify things that much more. I love the images I'm getting from my 10 year old camera, but I am wanting to upgrade, but only for the better features offered by newer cameras. Adam Woodworth's book was the first place I read information on the "sweet spot" for image resolution for nighttime photography, so I'm more than happy to buy a gently used mirrorless in the 20-30 MP range.
It's one of the reasons why I still use the Sony A7S Mark I.
Was thinking exactly the same :D I really don't see a reason to move to another camera any time soon
I am a terrestrial landscape photographer. Over the last twenty years I have been calmly telling all my foto-pals that the real advances with digital capture are to be found amongst dedicated astrophotographers. I was right.
I am a extra terrestrial photographer
This and your ISO Invariance presentations on the different models of the Sony models should be a first view of any new or old Astro Milky Way photographer! Today's SW is so good noise is no worry. Going from A7S to A7iii was scary with more pixels but turned out great with ISO Invariance but the cream on top was bright monitoring that was also in the Mod 2's (no one ever mentions in reviews).
Decided to send my Nikon Z6ii out to Spencer's Camera after talking with Clarence on Wednesday (and thanks to your great explanation about mod types in this video). Used your promo code above as well as the free shipping back promo code he told me about while on the phone ($62 US saved, thanks for saving me $30 of that!). They got my camera Friday morning, and it was already in the mail headed back that afternoon! You weren't kidding with your promo code's discount plus priority service! I did the visible + H-alpha mod, removing the AA Filter, reinstalling the dust reduction system and installing the heat reduction system. So excited to try it out! I mainly use that camera for Milky Way photography, but I also do some deep sky imaging with it through a Redcat 51. Clear skies and happy holidays!
good, informative video Alyn !
Okay, this video cleared up (ha!) my understanding of why I'm getting a lot of noise in my foregrounds. Thanks!
I recently upgraded from a Canon 7D Mark II to a R6 Mark II, and while the overall image noise is much better on the new camera, I’ve found the R6 to have a much bigger hit pixel problem at long shutter speeds. What have you found regarding hot pixels and the newer cameras vs older ones?
Enjoyable, informative video. What do you think of the new Panasonic Lumix S5 II camera paired with a F1.4, either a 24 or 50 mm camera 12:25 lens. For star tracking what about a Benro Polaris vs a traditional star tracker. I will be buying your book.
Great video Alyn. Very impressive & very clear 👏🏽👏🏽👍🏽👍🏽
Hi mate great content, I’ve been a hobbiest photographer for years but am being drawn into astrophotography and your channel is the main driver!!!! Would you recommend full frame or aps-c for an all around astrophotography.
Thanks
Fantastic video, thanks!
Another great video! One thing I want to point out is when you mentioned the a7iii vs a7iv read noise comparison, you didn't mention the considerable difference between the size of pixels of the two sensors. I'm not a subject matter expert with this, but it would seem to me that having a similar read noise between the two sensors despite the significant difference in pixel size makes the IV a significant improvement over the III?
Dude you are awesome. Excellent explanation and delivery of everything in this video. Like that rain bucket analogy is perfect. You make this nitty gritty technical stuff super easy and your delivery of this content is enjoyable to understand.
There's always something to be learned from you. Predominantly shooting from my bortle 9-8 backyard kinda forces short exposures (right?). I have one full frame Canon 5 D MK IV, 2 crop sensor Canons. REBEL T7i is astromoded. Canon's have a problem with ISO invariace, from information Peter Zelinka mentioned, and my own research. I'm giving some thought to a dedicated astro camera. This starts to get confusing. Where's the sweet spot? Am I better off with a lower resolution crop sensor. All this stuff I've read elsewhere confuses the heck out of me.
Great informative video - Thank you! Knowledge over gear.
People often say I must have super expensive camera, my response is I have 2 and I can still take same photos with your cheep one lol
Great explanation. Thank you.
Me patiently waiting for what's in the the night sky December✨️
Anyway I'm wishing you all clear skies and happy new year
I received your book and I am working my way through the noise section. A lot of info 🤯 but I have learned a lot
I learn so much from your videos!
This is a very good video 😀🙏🏼 so informative 🤩🤩
Awesome video, very informative
Thank you so much for another video that was easily understood by even an old lady and astrophotography beginner like me!
All very interesting. Would you say that moving from an ISO variant to an ISO invariant camera is a potential upgrade on noise performance, all other things being equal?
From what I know, I would say no. ISO invarience only plays a roll with your abilities in post processing, and not really with the actual performance of the camera or the actual ISO performance
Very good explanation of SNR. I've seen a lot of videos about it but you put it in a way I've never heard before. I have a Nikon z6 II and I mostly use my 20mm f/1.8. They only way my photos are going to improve its by buying a star tracker. I do use adequate to help reduce noise. I have Denoise AI that helps. I was planning on getting a star tracker last spring but I didn't. Maybe next year will be the year.
Hi Alyn! Great video as usual. One Question for X-Mas: Sigma 20mm DG DN 1.4 or Sony 20mm 1.8 G for FF astro?
For performance and wider aperture, the Sigma, it has better stars, less aberrations. For size/weight, the Sony 😊
Thanks so much for this video, you explanation are cristal clear.
I still have two questions:
1/ Doesn’t aperture count a lot when using a telescope?
2/ What about stacked sensor, does this technology be better or worst about noise?
Nice video for everyone out there. Thank you
Ashvn
While it is kinda true that noise performance per se isnt really improving, sensors overall improve. 60MP Sony sensor is on par with 12MP sensor. Real difference is the area on which you compare. Im pretty sure that timelapses look quite same when you are sample both A7SIII and A7rV to 8MP. Overall landscape astrophotograhpy differences lie more in the dynamic range rather than simplified noise comparison. Some cameras perform really bad on lower stops of the DR, some are better. Then also comes in thermal noise which is different on different cameras. Cameras may share the same sensor but thermal noise isnt identical because it all comes down to different designs. Some bodies dissipate heat better, some are really prone to thermal noise in long exposures. My Fp and S1R have pretty much identical noise performance even though S1R high-res. But S1R has more thermal noise and is more prone to it. Fp has a heatsink and tolerates more. In 30C summer heat, Fp outperforms S1R. In -30C winter cold, both are the same. While A7III may be a good camera and there may not be any noise differences compared to A7IV, some other aspects might be improved which overall provide better performance? Looking at charts and data do not do justice to any camera. Real SNR depends on more factors and isnt really dependent on the resolution. Get out, try and compare them in different real world scenarios. Maybe newer camera improved shadow area DR? Maybe newer sensor improved color performance? Maybe newer camera improved thermals?
So really increased Iso doesn't add noise to an image, Iso trades dynamic range for brightness/gain. Noise depends entirely on SNR, which is dependent on how much light is gathered during the exposure. Which is why stacked images work better, because your increasing the signal. So when people tell you ISO controls the amount of noise in the image, the reality is noise is controlled by aperture and shutter speed. Iso is more of an instruction to your aperture or shutter to under expose the sensor because it will make it up with gain.
I hear so many people say Iso increases the sensitivity of a camera, which makes no sense because increased Iso has less dynamic range making your camera less sensitive(precise) to subtle changes in brightness.
A great explanation Alyn. Thank you 🍺
Enjoyed as always your pictures and comments ect. I was wondering i live in Florida USA and plan on going to one of our dark sky places in earlier April. I currently have Sony A7Riii with a 20mm f2.8. Would it make a huge difference in getting and using a wide lenses of lets say f1.8 or even a 2.0 instead for my milky way shots.? thanks
Thank you Alyn for this helpful information! I really love your channel and your videos are amazing and your images are brilliant (even if captured during night time). Please continue creating more videos. A big „thank you“ from Germany, Nico
Only thing unmentioned is that front element size for a lens also plays a role. Just as with telescopes, increasing the lens size can be a way to capture more light. Also like with telescopes, the camera becomes a lot less portable.
Front element size doesn't matter in itself, you can have a small telescope perform fantastic. The focal ratio of the lens is what matters as it refers to the ratio of light per sensor area. Bigger telescopes are only for having a longer focal length at the same speed.
@@admiraloctavio5860 Perform fantastic is a relative term. A small telescope is not going to perform fantastic compared to something of similar quality and configuration that is 4x+ the diameter. Bigger telescopes are not only for longer focal length and speed. That is a backwards interpretation. Long focal lengths need to be larger to maintain speed. The reason that most aren't interested in a 26cm diameter 14mm telescope is because the interest is near nonexistent, the performance absolutely is going to be better in low light.
@@saccaed uhhh re-read what I said? I said focal ratio is what matters. Aperture only matters based off of desired FoV
Thanks for interesting info simplified enough. But anyway should I upgrade to A7iii from A7sii? I know i will gain a lot during daytime (AF performance, newer processor, faster scrolling, etc.), but will I loose a lot in the night? Or should I think of making two steps forward approach looking for A7iv?
The a7III is an increible all-round camera now available at a great price. The question is, do you want to pay the extra money for a flippy screen and a new menu layout.
@@AlynWallace thx Alyn, don’t know to be honest. I’m thinking about keeping s2 and getting 7iii as well :)
Very interesting. What about stacking? Can it be considered as a way to collect more light?
I would say it is a way to improve SNR, basically with stacking we try to "hide the noise under the carpet", making the good signal predominant
@@triestwildriders5922 Collecting more light is also a way to improve SNR as Alyn says. So what is the difference?
@@jpmissdeNice stacking process could be considered a way to collect more light, but the overall data you capture strongly depends on the exposure duration of the single images.
But stacking is mainly for image noise reduction.
Single image with an exposure of 30sec will have always more noise than a single image of 2min but it is also true that even a single exposure of 10min will have more noise than a stack of 5 image with 2min exposure, it's a matter of noise averaging as the latter has a random behaviour. Also the thermal noise of not cooled camera adds a new variable in the equation, so the longer you expose the more you have thermal noise that will ruin the data.
No. Stacking itself cannot collect more light but rather averages out the noise from each photo resulting in considerably less noise in the final image.
What are the main differences between a7II , a6400 and a7III? I dont know which one to buy.. For astrophotography
If you're at the brienzersee now, I hope you'll get some clear night skies... unfortunately, the weather forecast doesn't seem the best :-( apparantly, above 3000m you'll have the best change for clear skies...
I think it would be important to specify that the noise you've mentioned ignores all other factors and hence is Poissonian (i.e. thermal noise).
Once you go starry sky Autofocus, you wont go back to fumbling in the dark with FF electronic 'manual' focus. Cameras still need improving by a lot, dxo software can fix the rest.
I currently have the a7rIII and was wondering if upgrading to the a7rV is overkill or could bring more noise because higher resolution. Btw, My a7rIII needs the multiport repaired
Great video! Choosing a camera is over complicated.
I've never been able to find an astro A7S1/2 comparison to the A7S3. Or an astro modded A7S1/2 Vs the A7S3.
Dear Alyn are you planing to translate your book in different languages, for example German? Regards
Sadly not. Being a physcial book its way too expensive and risky to do.
Thanks Alyn. You've saved me a load of cash 😁
Thanks for the useful information. One day I will upgrade but for now I'm still having so much fun with my canon 600d which I picked up for £50. Sony maybe one day!
Is Photons to photos chart really comparable. Page itself states: "These raw values are not appropriate for comparing camera models because they are not adjusted for area."
It’s worth getting A7IV more than A7III because of flip screen. Being a landscape photographer in both day and night, not having flip screen is such a pain in the arse.
My upgrade is also going to be a downgrade, age wise it's a downgrade with me having a 4 yr old 200d and looking at going to a 6d which is 10 yrs old but the upgrade is ff sensor and pp of 6.6 compared to cs and pp of 3.7. It's of course budget driven before people say why not go to the new R mount and tbh even a 5dmk4 is out of my budget, I can get a good secondhand 6d and 2 good secondhand lenses for less than a 5dmk4 body let alone an R5 or 6 etc.
I have a question in regards to your square space. Do you have a contact email?
This is why I quit jumping on the band wagon every time these camera companies come out with a new camera. How many megapixels do you really need? No surprise they aren't improving noise. There isn't a camera or lens being sold today that is worth what these camera companies are charging.
Send the raws through DXO Pure Raw 2 and your DNG files will be noise free.
because the pixels have to be large for small noise. a 12mp its better of 48mp, change hobby
Nefis
Watch out folks, there's a scammer replying to comments.
promosm ✨
Bla
Day 53 of asking Alyn if there is a meteor shower in december.
You’ve waited almost 2 months instead of just googling it?
Yes bro geminid meteor shower peak on 13 to 14 December
there are 2! u need to get his 2023 calendar so you will know everything!
Try again tomorrow
@@Anita-zk2ve and the book! So you know the rest of everything. As Alyn said - it’s a bargain (and it’s gorgeous)
Enjoy Switzerland ! Go and take a look at "Le creux du Van" its far better than math ^^
What are the main differences between a7II , a6400 and a7III? I dont know which one to buy.. For astrophotography