Uncovering the 17 Year Gap Peter Jackson REMOVED from the Fellowship of the Ring...
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 30 июл 2024
- Welcome to the 3rd episode of "Movies vs. Manuscripts". A show where I analyze the differences between Peter Jackson's adaptation of "Lord of the Rings", and Tolkien's original works... scene. by. scene. Today we head into 4 different scenes that all have to do with the 17 year gap Tolkien writes about in Chapter 2 of the Fellowship of the Ring...
Watch Ep. 1: • 9 Things Peter Jackson...
I am NOT a Tolkien professor, and I haven't been studying this for decades. I am simply a fan. If I missed anything, please let me know in the comments and I will be sure to make corrections in the next episode!
By the way... I LOVE the movies. These videos are not to hate on Peter Jackson or the films at all. Simply comparing the adaptation to the original. :)
-
Read along with me! 📖 Claim Andy Serkis’ narration of “The Fellowship of the Ring” on Audible for FREE: www.audibletrial.com/factorfa... 👈 Every free trial supports the channel!
🍞 Support the channel by buying me Lembas: buymeacoffee.com/factorfantasy
Looking for the PERFECT men's wedding band?
Get 25% OFF your purchase at Manly Bandz with my code (FACTORFANTASY),
and support the channel at the same time! 👉 manlybands.com/FACTORFANTASY
-
Business Inquiries 📩 gabe@factorfantasyweekly.com
-
Want to join an awesome community of fantasy fans?! Check out our Discord server! RPG 🐉 Battle Royale 🗡️ Art 🖌️ Community Adventures 🧙♂️ and a chance to nerd out with others! 👏
Join: / discord
-
Music:
🔻
"Arthur-Marie Brillouin - Bien-Aimée" is under a Creative Commons (CC BY 3.0) license.
creativecommons.org/licenses/...
@arthur-mariebrillouin4496
Music promoted by BreakingCopyright: • 🌼 Ambient Piano (Royal...
🔺
🔻
"Alexander Nakarada - Frost" is under a Creative Commons (BY 3.0) license:
creativecommons.org/licenses/...
/ creatorchords
Music powered by BreakingCopyright: • 🍺 RPG & Celtic (Free M...
🔺
-
Sources:
"The Fellowship of the Ring," directed by Peter Jackson, New Line Cinema, 2001.
-
#tolkien #tolkienlore #lordoftherings #lotr #peterjackson #newlinecinema #warnerbros #jrrtolkien
-
Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
0:55 Scene Summary
2:17 Character Changes
3:15 Location/Timeline Changes
4:25 Plot/Theme Changes 
Кино
Want to get into the Lord of the Rings for the first time OR simply rediscover Middle Earth in a whole new way? 📖 Claim Andy Serkis’ narration of “The Fellowship of the Ring” on Audible *for FREE with my code:* www.audibletrial.com/factorfantasyfellowship 👈 Every free trial supports the channel!
IF the timeline were represented in the movies, at Bilbo’s party, Pippin wouldn’t have been messing around with fireworks, he would have been one of those little tots hearing Bilbo tell his troll story!
Exactly! He would’ve been 10-11, and Sam and Merry around 20. Whereas Frodo was in his 30’s 💀
@@factorfantasyweekly Right, both of you. And hobbits don't "come of age" until they're 33, so that would make Pippin, Merry and Sam quite young at Bilbo's birthday party. Only Frodo was of age.
@@cynthiafrancis6711 and Frodo was only just then turning 33, since it was his birthday too!
When I read the books years ago, I remember thinking that it was very relevant that Frodo was older than the other Hobbits. It meant he had a more mature and experienced understanding of the world. At 50 I guess he was the equivalent of a a human in his early 30s - educated, fully grown, world-wise for a Hobbit. The other hobbits are “young men in their late teens, very early 20s” in human terms. In the WW1 context, none of them are experienced in war. But Frodo is the landed class, serving older officer (a major, or a captain) to Merry and Pippin’s newly-made, young upper class lieutenants - and Sam is Frodo’s working class “batman.” These are types Tolkien was very familiar with.
Frodo would still appear to be Elijah Wood's age in the films, as 33 is just out of your teens for a Hobbit and the Ring stopped his aging right then.
There was a very prominent class mechanic in the books people ignore. Frodo was upperclassmen or maybe merchang class. Sam was working class... A farmer. Hence always calling him master, mister etc. Though once well into the quest I'd say they were absolutely friends and frodo considered them his equals
@@charlesreid9337 That's true, but they are presented in the most positive light that can be cast in. Frodo doesn't just view Sam as any old lackey, he's his right hand. There is a lot of honor in serving a good master well and Sam represents that kind of personal pride in your work.
I mean Sam had great advice for Frodo the whole way through. And you're telling me he is like half Frodos age? Thats actually interesting.
This was a choice I think they needed to make for the film. In JRRT's experience, it was natural for there to be an Officer Class and Gardener Class, normal for Frodo to have a servant who would dedicate himself so utterly to his master because, well, it's what you did-it's a Duty, built into his very existence as a laborer working for gentry. But that attitude would be alien to modern viewers, probably even distasteful. It would have reduced Frodo in the viewers' eyes. In the film, this sense of class-based Duty is replaced by Friendship, something the viewer can identify with, and that is more believable when they are all similar in age.
I also felt that it would have been just too many confusing leaps in time so early in the film if the 17 years had been preserved. Imagine, having never read the books, you heard a synopsis on audio tape. It would be confusing pretty quickly. They struggled with this a great deal when writing the film.
Honestly, Im most saddened we didnt get Gandalf basically yelling in Frodo's window "I swear to god of you don't open this damn door..."
Haha, yeah, that line about blasting Bad End's door down the hall and out the back of the hill is such a Gandalf moment.
In my head canon, when Gandalf is reading out loud, and says 3434, he's just beginning. He kind of mumbles a bit as he reads on, sort of skipping ahead, until he gets to the point seven years later, and reads the account of Isildur cutting the One Ring from Sauron's hand. In other words, while he doesn't voice the year 3441, he skims over the account of the siege, and picks up reading more carefully again when he finds the account he's looking for. As I've said, that's just head canon, but it's the impression the scene gave me.
That could totally be an option as well!
I feel you left out something from when Gandalf told Frodo about the ring. In the book, It is decided that Frodo will travel with the ring, but there is no immediate urgency. Frodo wanted to leave in a manner that wouldn't draw attention and also later in the Fall. He doesn't just pack up and flee out of the Shire, like in the movie. He takes his time, plans his trip, and even sells Bag End to the Sackville-Bagginses. Then moves to Crickhollow and buys a house in Buckland.
Stay tuned for next week’s episode! Couldn’t get into all that now because that doesn’t happen until chapter 3 of the book, and it would’ve added another 15 minutes to this video. 😂
Yeah the films inject a much greater sense of urgency and threat, which improves the narrative in my opinion
@@criert135Agreed. Even though the book is awesome with the extended stories and drawn out narratives, it doesn't translate into movie pacing. The sense of urgency had to be developed fast so that it could take off. They are both excellent in my opinion.
And- Fredegar Bolger stays behind at Crickhollow, waiting for the Black Riders to come! Eventually they come, and he runs to the neighbors, and gives the alarm.
Watching along and you had my interest until "and we only watch the extended edition here, as that is the only way to watch the trilogy" ... and now you have my attention. And my thumbs up.
I've only saw the theatrical versions in the theatre, after that I've only watched the extended versions so I have literally no idea what I'm missing.
That bit about Farmer Maggot telling the Nazgûl off is something I never thought about but agree that it should have been shown. I always thought it was so cool that a hobbit essentially scared a Nazgûl away by simply threatening him with his dogs. Sure, the Nazgûl knew full well he could take the dogs; and Farmer Maggot probably had an inkling of this too; but it’s cool nonetheless.
Edit: I wasn’t planning on doing this, but it’s getting kinda annoying having everyone and their mother tell me, “Farmer Maggot didn’t scare off the Nazgûl!” I know that. I’m well aware that the Nazgûl wasn’t scared in the least. I worded the comment badly. I’m sorry if this upsets you.
Exactly! I think the reason they didn’t is because they wouldn’t have enough time to flesh out the full character of Maggot. Whereas in the books we get a good chunk of story from him. If it was a quick moment, we would’ve been like “who the heck is this guy?” And it would’ve made the Nazgûl seem not as powerful.
All that being said, it still would’ve been cool to see it! Poor guy got turned into a coward. 😂
@@factorfantasyweekly Yes, the whole point of the movie scenes is to build the aura and menace of the Nazgul, hence why they ran down that Hobbit, it is to make the audience realise these guys are dangerous and mean business. The novels could build that by saying that they were evil and had a menacing presence. But movies are show don't tell.
@Son-of-Gondor, one thing I would like for people who haven't read the novel to understand, is that the aura of fear that is projected by the Nazgul is of a demonic nature, and therefore people who have the courage to resist are exceptional and have nerves of steel. Book version of Eowyn is one example.
Farmer Maggot doesn't scare the Nazgul away; the only characters we see cause fear in them are Glorfindel and Gandalf the White (they're not afraid of Aragorn at Weathertop, it's the fire, and the fact that Frodo has already been stabbed that drives them to retreat) . Farmer Maggot just isn't afraid of the Nazgul, which is impressive enough for any mortal.
But this isn't really on-page fully; it's not until Tom Bombadil - whose opinion carries weight because we see evidence of his power, and later, when Elrond and Gandalf talk about him in the Council - that we know Maggot didn't piss his pants like his movie counterpart does.
@@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t Exactly, in fact in the book, the dogs slink back into the house scared. So it's farmer maggot's sense of right and wrong and courage to stand up to what was clearly wrong that we appreciate and it comes up later in the book too.
When I first read the books, I looked all over for a series like this, and it was criminally underdeveloped. I love your series and look forward to each episode.
Thank you so much! Keeps me motivated to keep doing it. 💪🏼
Join the discord if you ever wanna nerd out about the analysis and make suggestions for future videos!
@@factorfantasyweekly I've heard a few people both online and offline feel that the movie made Frodo and Sam gay in the last movie? so just checking that was not in the books?
@@Anonymous99666 definitely not as Tolkien envisioned
@@Anonymous99666IMO the friendship between Frodo and Sam becomes more familial. IIRC Frodo, Pippin and Merry are all related. Sam is not.
@@susanscott8653 if they kissed in the book then that is kinda geh
“The wide world is all about you; you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out” LOTR p.82
An important note about the last battle of men and elves- in the movie version Sauron was displaced or disembodied after the ring was cut from his hand, but the novel version explains that Sauron was somehow beat down or incapacitated in some way, and then Isildur cut the ring from his hand. The novel version also explains that Gilgalad was literally incinerated when grasped by Sauron.
Yep! I had to dedicate a whole episode to just the prologue scene because there were so many things to discuss. Check out episode one for all that info!
Elendil and Gil-Galad fought him and killed him and died. Sauron's body was so hot that it made the ring display the writing on it. And it also scorched Gil-Galad to death when they fought. Sauron being destroyed when the ring is cut is very stupid: why would he make a weak point that can be exploited, since he's already a maia and hard to kill.
@psevdhome, yep you’re right.
@@keithtorgersen9664 I'm just reciting lore.
I disagree with how PJ did this scene, though mainly for the evil Isildur.
Still I do respect the idea of how hard that is to get across the idea that Sauron's body can be slain but his spirit will live on and the ring keeps it going even more. That's a lot to get across in a short scene.
In the books, until the events of the Hobbit, where the White Council drove Sauron out of Dol Guldur, nobody knew that Sauron was still around, scheming and causing havoc. They thought it was just the Nazgul.
Gil-Galad’s death actually was filmed but cut, probably to avoid an R-rating. That’s what Elendil is reacting to just before Sauron kills him. I’m surprised it wasn’t restored in the Extended Edition.
I like the “coward hobbit scene.” It quickly communicates great danger; otherwise, all they would need against a black rider is a dog.
But the black riders weren’t scared off by the dog, they just didn’t want to draw too much attention to themselves.
The difference is that the books have time to set up the Black Riders as an insidious, implacable menace. Nothing stops them. They creep ever closer to the Shire while doing NOTHING to alarm anyone (other than their built-in Fear Aura, which they can dampen a bit but never really turn off). They're scary because nothing seems to deter them or slow them down.
It's hard to get that to come across in 75 seconds of screen time in a movie.
It's ironic though that despite the length of the 3 books, the total journey from the time that Frodo left Hobbiton on September 22, to Sauron's destruction on Mar 25, was a mere 6 months. And Frodo spent approximately 90ish days resting, 10/21st-12/25, and then some unknown period in Lothlorien roughly a month's time, and then the time that he spent in Henneth Anun 1-2+ days.
The Time in Lorien flows differently so they felt less time themselves than the outside world did. When they left Lorien one of the party notices that the phase of the moon is wrong.
@@christophersmith8316 thanks, I did bring that up
You make a great point. That really just makes clear how dangerous what they were doing was.
"Underhill, my name is Underhill"
17 years summed up in a single line.
Still the best book to film adaptation of any kind ever.
It’s not like how they do now where they change characters completely to fit an agenda and the source material is not respected at all.
@@anni.68 they did with Galadriel, they made her woke. The strong and overpowered female protagonist.
@asde1783
"(Galadriel) was then of Amazon disposition...” (The Letters of J.R.R.Tolkien, Letter 348) Tolkien used the term "Amazon" only and exclusively for female warriors! Eowyn e.g. is according to Tolkien not an amazon. In Parma Eldalamberon Tolkien translates the word "Amazon" into "Gothwin" in Elvish and the literal translation of Gothwin into English is "War Woman".
The other quotes are all from J.R.R. Tolkien, Unfinished Tales, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn’
1. "Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe..." (The Noldor are the second biggest of the three groups of Elves).
2. "She was called Nerwen ‘man-maiden’ because of her strength and stature, and her courage."
3. "She was proud, strong, and selfwilled, as were all the descendants of Finwë save Finarfin...."
4. „...she was strong of body, mind and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth."
5. "Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she[Galadriel] fought fiercely against Feanor in defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burned with desire to follow Feanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could."
6. "She looked upon the Dwarves also with the eye of a commander , seeing in them the finest warriors to pit against the Orcs". This quote is from the Second Age, from exactly the time of the forging of the Rings of Power.
@@asde1783 you can sit down now and be quiet about this woke nonsense. @anni.68 said it all.
@@Sockimus i mean that i dont like it the woke shi
I always had some thought over the whole “searched everywhere for the creature…” thing and like “WHEN THOUGH!?”. Seemed like it had been a weekend trip.
Perfect time for this type of analysis. I’m starting my summer reading by rereading the fellowship and this is an awesome compliment.
The timeline in Tolkiens writing is MUCH longer than you’d guess. Like in certain parts there will be 1000s of years that pass in pages. Then he’ll spend 100 pages on the span of a day. Admittedly once the fellowship gets moving time passes fairly plainly.
Just discovered your channel. I like this idea and it's done well. You have got some good early traction too. Well done.
One more thing re. the conversation at bag-end about the ring; in the movie Gandalf is afraid to even touch the ring but in the book, he holds it up and looks at it before throwing it in the fire. A small, but I feel important difference.
I remember a few months back I watched the trilogy and my brother recommended I watch the regular editions first, but knowing I might never watch it again, I went with extended editions. What a great weekend
Farmer Maggot threatened Frodo with his dogs, when Frodo was young, because he was stealing mushrooms.
Bearing in mind that Frodo was the same age as Bilbo when he set off on his own adventure - 50 years old - Farmer Maggot, one would assume, would have to be significantly older.
If the Hobbit who directed the black rider to Hobbiton is supposed to be Farmer Maggot, he is too young and too frightened.
Farmer Maggot kicked bottoms!
Agreed! I believe he also had two dogs.
As mentioned in the video, I don’t think they wanted that specific hobbit to be farmer maggot. But it’s clear that they drew inspiration from that moment. Sad all we see of Maggot is a scythe behind some corn (we’ll get to that in a later episode). 😂
@@factorfantasyweekly There was too much to fit into the trilogy, but PJ did a damn fine job, nevertheless. Despite the lack of The Scouring of The Shire, which was sad.
The Hobbit, on the other hand, should have been called ’The Dwarf’ because it was all about Thorin and it was an overblown mess!
Just my unpopular opinion. Hey ho.
@@graceygrumble Not that unpopular, really. Most of the fans agree that, despite all changes, LOTR is a great movie trilogy. And The Hobbit isn't.
I'm grateful for both trilogies as they pretty closely match the vision I've carried in my head since 1977... Yes they left some things out and yes they change some things up put in the main it was masterfully done
@@factorfantasyweekly Didn't he have three dogs: Grip, Fang and Wolf?
Love this channel. I also really like the music, it goes very well with what you show.
Thank you! Be sure to support the musicians. Links in description. 😁
I have read the books countless of times, but only seen the films once, and there was so much missing from the films I was trying to cope with that I didn´t even realize Frodo left Shire only about a year after Bilbo. It doesn´t make much sense, because one of the important themes in the book is Frodo´s longing for Bilbo and his doubt about whether he will see him ever again and the great joy and surprise when he meets him again in RIvendel after 17 years.
It does make sense, because it's a different medium that requires adjustments to be told well.
Honestly, the films made massive improvements to the narrative
One of the flaws of the books iny opinion is that there is a lot of filler and exposition..tell ing us x did y instead of showing it. I think the trilogy is Better than the books
@@criert135it got rid of a lot of filler and cold exposition..and some nonsense
Can you imagine including Tom bombadil in the books?
@@charlesreid9337 I disagree. That so called filler lays the background for the events that follow Bilbo's leaving the shire.
I’m rereading the books before my 18th since the last time I read them was when I was eleven, I really like these videos and I look forward to them every week.
Awesome! If you ever notice anything different from the movies let me know. 🙏🏼 You can even join the discord cause I hang out in there and nerd out about this stuff. Have fun reading!
@@factorfantasyweekly thanks man.
Peter Jackson actually kept the 17 year gap.
He talked about it in an interview that the gap reflects on making bilbo look much older when they get to Rivendell.
Peter Jackson kept it very open for his future projects which never happened.
It might happen now since Peter Jackson and Andy cerkis are working on “the hunt for gollum”.
(Which was during those 17 years)
Jackson was really trying to raise the tension and sell the Black Riders as scary, menacing slasher villains. If, in their first encounter, they get chased off a farm by an NPC, it really undercuts their menace. All for the sake of a character that has no bearing on the story? Doesn’t seem worth it to me.
For movie’s sake, it was a good call. But for any book fans, farmer maggot is so awesome 😂 but yea it would’ve been difficult to fit that in the film.
Maggot would’ve fed the ring to one of his dogs and called it a day.
@@factorfantasyweekly And instead of a dog you’d have a queeeeeen!! Beautiful and as terrible as the dawn!! Treacherous as the seaaaa!!
When it failed later was when he completely ruined Faramir's character...
No as a filmmaker, I can tell you somethings need to be changed for pacing. It would totally ruin the beginning of the movie to just have them goofing off for 17 years before going on the journey it would’ve killed the pacing
I knew and remembered all that, but well done. It's nice to see a proper analysis of the differences.
I assume you'll be talking about that later (or maybe already have, it's been a week after all), but I did like how, in the book, Gandalf and Frodo plan this entire thing of Frodo moving from Bagend to another part of the Shire, and coordinating with Merry who lives there (and Pippin who's just helping), and I *think* Maggot... or was it someone else? Maggot also was acquainted with Tom Bombadil, so he's really an awesome stand-up guy. The archetypal sturdy honest farmer, really.
It may come up later, but they didnt run to the ferry either, Farmer Magot and one of his helpers drove them there. So yes, very cool farmer
Thank you for this video series! I recently started rereading the books and I'm really enjoying your analysis! Something that struck me when I reread this chapter was that Frodo kept the ring on a chain in his pocket for those 17 years. I was surprised that it didn't have a greater influence on him since he was carrying it around all that time, compared to the movie where he puts it in an envelope in a chest. Please keep these excellent videos coming!
That is an interesting point! That is curious…
Thanks for watching! 🙏🏼
I enjoy the books I love movies. I hate amazon's rings of power. It is painfully obvious.They don't care one bit for JRR Tolkien's legacy
They are clinging to coattails and purely after the money
All they did was empathize who she was. She wasn't some weak magical priestess hiding in the woods.. she was a renowned warrior..per Tolkien. What they are doing is showing us the young warrior. Which seems to cause incels and betamales intense pain. If her character were male you'd see the series differently
@@charlesreid9337 are you seriously trying to make me out to look like some sort of sexist when I didn't even mention galadriel.
@@charlesreid9337 no. Just no.
I actually liked the change to the farmer scene. It makes Nazgul much more threatening. First part of the book is much more "fairy-taily", less serious, and the scene works as a joke like "this old man is scarier then the Devil himself!", but in the movie it doesn't work that well. Remember, it's the first time we see Nazgul "up close". And the first time we see him he's afraid of the old grumpy hobbit and his dog. Most of the viewers will say "Huh! This guy is not a threat!". But with this scene we see that something REALLY bad and dangerous is comming, and it's already here.
Yes, Peter Jackson definitely was bringing some of his and Fran’s horror experience to those moments and trying to build suspense and make the viewer really fear the Nazgûl. They did a great job!
Yes, we as viewers need to understand that these black riders are really dangerous.
@@michaelmurdock4607 Yeah I always figured that if the Black Riders just went around chopping everyone's heads off after trying to get information, it might set some alarms off. The Black Riders weren't brutes. They were cunning and sometimes patient hunters. In the book they seemed to hang back and wait for Frodo to succumb to his wound from Weathertop before trying to attack again.
It also works in the book because at that point, we have no idea who these 'black riders' are. They come off as sinister and probably dangerous, but it is only much later on in the book that you learn who they really are and realize how crazy it was that Farmer Maggot had the courage to stand up to them. The movie doesn't have the time to gradually unveil just how dangerous and terrifying these black riders are, so it needs to establish them as really bad and dangerous right from the get go.
The Nazgûl are not scared off in the book, lmao. Maggot tells one Ringwraith to leave, the Ringwraith lunges at him on his horse, and then he leaves. That's it. It doesn't seem like you've ever read the books. It's not a joke whatsoever. Sauron orders the Ringwraiths to keep a low profile during their mission, and so they don't go around just killing people for no reason at all. That's why they don't murder him. They ask him for information, he refuses them, and then they leave.
I watched the films first, and I was genuinely surprised how long it took for Frodo to go on his journey. It explained very well why it took Gandalf so long, but still surprised.
Frodo really really didn't want to do this.. no one did.. and likely assumed they were f#cked.
Love this, watch the trilogy Every year but never read the books so Im learning so so much from this series, commenting and liking every video to help out and hopefully going all the way through all movies/ books
Yes I did know that there was a 17 year gap, and I would have liked that to be shown in the movies.
I rewatched the extended edition yesterday and Sandyman and Gaffer talk about Dwarves and unsavory folk being around the Shire and I always thought he was referring to the Dwarf Company Bilbo departed with all those years ago. I had forgotten about the Dwarves Frodo encountered.
00:07 Yes. Because I've read the books but have yet to see the movies.
Farmer Maggot is indeed a boss, and has an interesting relationship with Tom Bombadil, as revealed in the Tolkien Reader.
Got this recommended, series seems really cool and I'm excited to follow it. Just the playlist has the videos backwards, which is a little awkward.
Hm good note, let me see if I can fix that.
Thank you so much , keep the amazing work !
Thank you! I look forward to doing it each week. 😁
I believe the reason that Sam and Frodo were presented as friends in the movie is primarily because there is no good American equivalent to the relationship that they had. If an American audience was presented with the idea that Frodo and Sam were master and servant, they would probably assume that the inequality made it impossible for any deep bond to form. However, I believe that in England at the time Tolkien was writing, it wasn't too uncommon for people to develop close deep bonds with people who were actually butlers or other types of servants. So Frodo and Sam's relationship doesn't really have a good parallel in American society.
A good example of the type of relationship that I mean would be Lord Peter Wimsey and his butler Bunter in Dorothy Sayers' detective series. Although they have a master and servant relationship, each of them has risked their life for the other at least once over the course of the series.
I think it was more for simplification than for cultural differences as their relationship made sense to me as a 12 year old American in 2018. But Frodo and Sam being master and servant doesn't mean they weren't friends. In fact Frodo basically called Sam his best friend by the point of Two Towers ("my dear hobbit- indeed, Sam, my dearest hobbit, friend of friends-"). Tolkien also mentioned that they have both relationships in Letters; (for context he is talking about the elvish words for servent and friend) "But these often coincide: e.g. Sam's relation to Frodo can be viewed either as in status -ndur, in spirit -ndil."
I realize after writing this that the second part doesn't contradict your comment (I now see you meant 'only friends'). I often think I "disagree" with a comment, then write a reply that is repeating the same thing by the end of it. Still a relevant quote though.
In the main, most Americans are able to grasp the relationship between Alfred and Batman.... I agree with the commentator that said it was for simplification rather than any cultural nod....
We understand those relationships perfectly, just find them distasteful.
At the time the book was written the English class system was much stronger than 50 years later, when the servant/master relationship would have been a bit on the nose. So Sam had to be made more of a friend than a servant for modern sensibilities.
@@stefencampbell Fair enough.
I’m glad to hear someone give Farmer Maggot his props. I choose to believe that the hobbit we saw in the movie was his neighbor
That’s a good way to view it 😂
One of the Sackvilles, no doubt.
When I was watching this movie as a child I thought Gandalf leaving and coming back happened in less than 24 hours. The shot of the Hobbits returning home after a night out looks like it could be the end of Bilbo's birthday celebration. There is no proper indication of time passing or the distance travelled by Gandalf other than the sun being in the sky when Gandalf arrives in the city. So in my mind it went like this: Gandalf leaves during Bilbo's celebration -> he travells for the whole night -> arrives in the morning in some city -> returns the next night when the Hobbits finally finish the birthday celebration.
This is how I saw it up until I saw this video explaining the timeline and it leaving me wondering if it was a 17 year gap how Bilbo or the other Hobbits never aged a single day.
Given that an unspecified time skip is already present in the film, there's no harm in imagining that much more time passes.
Especially since it is reasonably impossible to consider that less than a few years could have passed in the film given what is declared by Gandalf himself: "I looked everywhere for this Gollum but the enemy found him before me".
Scouring Middle-earth takes time, just going back and forth between the Shire and Gondor necessarily takes months, if only geographically speaking (it takes Boromir almost 4 months to go from Gondor to in Rivendell for example, then it certainly takes around ten months for Gandalf, at least, just to go back and forth between Gondor and the Shire...)
That’s why I’m so glad there’s a great fan-film about the Hunt for Gollum. It sort of fills a gap there, but yeah..
They showed the Hobbit being intimidated by the Black Rider because they wanted to communicate that the primary weapon of the Nazgul is fear. In the books they have a lot more time to build up the aura of the Nazgul - for instance, Frodo is described as being creeped out by the voice he hears coming from around the bend, talking to Gaffer Gamgee.
Legendary work 🙏🏽
quality video. subscribed ) will u do Star Wars and Harry Potter stuff in the future?
I’d love to! Still got about 11 hours to go of LOTR…. And then there’s the Hobbit. 😂
But after, I’d love to do Harry Potter next since there’s source material for that.
Looking back, it was nice of the Dark Rider to just ask where Bilbo lives instead of threatening him XD
This is why I wish the movies were a drawn out HBO class miniseries instead of movies.
I would definitely have loved to see the fights that were cut out, as well as the Richer characters.
Watching Gandalf fight off the nine nazgul would have been awesome.
I never associated the hobbit scared of the Nazgûl in the movie as being Farmer Maggot.
Comparing to a few scenes later when the hobbits are in Farmer Maggots crops and he is chasing them, the voices sound completely different.
Movies based on a novel, comic book, etc, are a lot more challenging to make. It’s amazing what Peter Jackson was able to achieve!
The removal of the 17 year gap also ties into the character assassination of Merry and Pippin. I'll admit that the characters work very well in the movies and I understand that the backstory for their involvement had to be changed, but I still think it is a pity.
The line about the talking trees is more likely a reference to the Entwives than to the Ents. It's explicitly stated that the Shire is exactly the kind of place the Entwives would have liked to hang out.
Frodo / Bilbo share the same birthday, so he continued throwing a party for the both of them every year after the big party to celebrate not just Bilbo's birthday, but both of them.
Yep! I mention this in another video I think. But the book does put a specific emphasis on the fact that the party was for Bilbo, as Frodo believed him to be alive and carried on the tradition as a way of staying attached to him. He made a point of it being *Bilbo’s* party, not just his. Great little detail!
remembering the book, indeed a lot was not shown in the film. But the film works, even if 20 pages are condensed into a single scene or even completeley left untold. The movie creates a sense of urgency and conveys it for the movie goer. Also, Ian McKellen is superb as Gandalf.
Well I learned something new today. About Farmer Maggot 😁
As well as Frodo's maturity (advanced age) over the other 3 hobbits, there is also little to no attention in the films given to the fact that Frodo, Merry and Pippin are all upperclass (landed gentry in Frodo's case) gentry while Sam is working class. Sam is actually Frodo's employee, not his friend at the beginning of the film. He follows Frodo on his adventures out of social classes inherent loyalty to their masters. And their friendship only blossoms during their adventures. I suspect that the social nuances of this would go largely unnoticed by international audiences.
Granted, you wouldn’t be reading every line of dialogue omitted from the movie, but I seriously regretted the lack of Gandalf’s full response to Frodo saying “it is a pity [Bilbo] didn’t kill [Gollum]”
I like it how you say Sandyman like people say Spiderman with the hard emphasis on the Man part of the name.
One can dream of a hobbit superhero…
Great video. VHS effect is a bit strong, almost hurt my eyes watching
Funny story: the first time I saw the movies (before I read the books, I was a kid still lol) I remember when Gandalf told Sam that he was going with Frodo. And Sam begged not to be turned into an anything. We see a shot of Frodo leaving with his donkey or mule or whatever and for a second I honestly thought Gandalf had turned Sam into an animal to “help him on his travels” lol. I truly believe this shot was intentional and the director was toying with us as we see Sam run up behind them a few seconds later.
I’ve never thought of it that way! That’s a great way to look at it and you’re probably right! 😂
Re: the Nazgûl killing a hobbit, I did hear there was a bit cut out of the original text (I think Unfinished or Lost Tales) where the Nazgûl do kill a hobbit or two in anger/vengeance after Freddie Bolger escapes and wakes the village. So the film is still a departure from the canon story (since that bit was removed) but maybe that cut bit was inspiration?
Hmmm possibly! Good point.
Fun fact, the Nazgul that talks with Farmer Maggot is Khamul the Black Easterling, second in command of the Nine who took on the mantle of their lord when the Witch King was slain
Watching the movies without paying close attention, I thought he left the day after Bilbo's birthday
I loved the movies, and I'm glad they happened because I tried to read the books a couple times but I could never make it past the birthday party. It was too damn long and slow for me.
And I love to read.
I found that reading them in e-book form helped. I feel less guilty skipping pages in e-book form. I eventually was able to read the whole thing without skips
The black rider was not at all afraid of Farmer Maggot in the books and almost rode him down, and Mary commented that he seemed afraid. The point was that Farmer Maggot stood up to them in spite of his fear.
Farmer Maggot is a very underrated character. Even Tom Bombadil has respect for him.
I always imagined if the wrong wraiths or sautimon chanced upon Tom bombadil (if he allowed it) they'd have given him a very very wide berth. My impression was Tom was basically a god and even gandalf and sauron were children in comparison
I would argue that the gap in the film between Bilbo's birthday party and the departure of Frodo & Sam is almost exactly one year. Otherwise, we have to imagine that everything that happens between the party and the Council of Elrond takes place in just over a month, which doesn't seem credible (unless Gandalf can teleport!).
Hmm, yes I could see that being the case. Good observation!
Yeah i did, ive read the book many times. One of the problems with the films is that they portray the relationship as a bromance rather than that of master and devoted servant. Which is also the reason why they werent gay.
Why ever would you taint any such classic relationship with "gay"?
The actual reason Frodo and Sam weren't "Friends" in the American sense is a class difference not an age difference. Sam is not of the same class as the other three who were all from a richer class of Hobbit while he just lived in a little house with his gaffer. He was an employee. Doesn't mean that there isn't affection both ways.
I call BS. In the books when Frodo learns of the conspiracy between the Hobbies to help him Merry/Pippin says "we're your friends"
@@SirKanti1 how does this refute anything he said?
This is covered in the Ralph Bakshi animated Lord of the Rings.
17 years passed sleepily in the shire.😊
Wonderful series, the old tv effect gives me headache though
Honestly. The exclusion of this changed some of the vibe but didn't change much else. (I unironically know a lot of book readers who didn't even notice it themselves on a first watch) It's borderline just an interesting tidbit you can tell someone at the beginning of the movie. I think the removal of the scouring of the shire was much more impactful on the movies. It determines the direction the movie takes from beginning to end imo. Since its exclusion means they are rewriting basically nearly every major characters ending's. I honestly think it's the best chapter in the book and it's a shame it never got an adaptation.
Peter Jackson proofs he is the best adaptation Director of all time.
In the book, Farmer Maggot lives in a house rather than a hobbit hole. Another reason to think the guy in the movie is Farmer Maggot
I’d never read the books before the movies.
I kind of became suspect when we see Gandalf going to all of these different places like Isengard and Minas Tirith in such a short time.
I think the "17 year gap" still exists within the movies. The best example is Bilbo's rapid aging in Fellowship of the Ring because he still looked young from the moment he found the ring to his 111 birthday party. When he gave up the ring, Bilbo began to look older as we see when he reunites with Frodo in Rivendell. Then, Bilbo got extra older by the end of Return of the King when he and Frodo join Gandalf and the elves on a boat trip to the Grey Havens.
Although, I find it wierd that Bilbo was aging while Gollum did not despite losing the ring to him.
I don't think it did. The four hobbits didn't age at all during the time between, and the younger 3 should have been younger by far.
It can easily be explained by the fact that Gollum had the ring longer and had changed physically, he was of a different sort than Bilbo. Some aspect of him could easily have been on the edge of wraithlike, and kept him in a weird preserved state.
The Nazgûl are far more threatening in the films. In the first book, they seem more ominous than creepy like they do in the movie. If Jackson had show Farmer Maggot telling them off and them just leaving, it would have diminished the sense of threat and of the fear of them. For the movie, I think it was the right call.
In the books they were even less of a factor than the movies. Yes they scared barely armed hobbits. But one on one Aragorn would have fucked a nazgul up. And gandalf Did
In the movie yes things are condensed for run time and it does make the hobbits seem like the Goonies as they set out and meet Aragorn
Well in the book there was a 17 year gap as Gandalf went away for that time to research about the ring. If the ringraith made it to Hobbiton shouldn't frodo or gandalf come across them. Frodo, Sam, pippin and merry do later on when there in the woods near farmer maggot and barely escape the raith. In the game the ringraith searched all night for frodo and frodo had to avade him. Also farmer maggot helped frodo and friends out of Hobbiton.
I thought it was a 50 year gap between the 111th birthday and Frodo leaving.
I wondered why Sam kept calling Frodo "Mister Frodo" since I thought they were best friends. I also only just now found out he was saying "master" and not "mister".
He’s saying mister in the films
The farmer also helps take back the shire
It's been so long since I read the first book. it's easy to forget some of the small details. My favorite part that wasn't included in the films were with Glorfindel. Arwen's role in the movies kind of steals his role from the books and fuses it into her story arc. He's the one and only Elf character I always wish they included in the films. He's basically an elven super hero in middle earth. The true Golden Chad so to speak. lol
Arwen didn't just replace Glorfindel, but reduced the quality of Frodo's character by carrying him. It was Frodo who rode Asfalof and defied the riders at the river. But so often Jacksons version reduces/demeans the characters in some way.
Why is Gandalf always lurking in the shadows are we sure he is a good guy is he shire batman? Sam getting caught eavesdropping is the most Goonie thing in the movie Sean Astin did great
😂😂
I literally just found this out the other day. Haven't read the books, maybe i should.
100000% read the books!
I’d argue that ‘Farmer Maggot’ NOT standing up to the Nazgûl was the necessary choice (at least if the scene was shown at all). Remember, the Nazgûl aren’t just bad guys but the biggest bads save Sauron (who we never really see). That makes it imperative to show them as being terrifying, powerful, and evil. Having some random hobbit bravely tell them off would only sabotage that necessity. Remember, the average viewer had no idea what the Nazgûl were and if some random bit player could so easily defy them that would inevitably leave a viewer wondering what the big deal is about Sauron’s right hand wraiths. In other words, doing the scene as originally written would have undercut the NECESSARY aim of making Sauron Inc seem sufficiently powerful and dangerous.
Of course, that is the same reason for the one black rider to murder that other hobbit.
Yes it was in Lotr 1978 animated movie.
notice the"hobbit"seated@theGreenDragon is
clearly the orc that messes w/merry&pippin
later on(theTwoTowers). reminiscing es kinda fun. G.Davis sr30June'24
Excellent content!
I recommend watching the latest video on Jesse Tribble's channel: "Can The Lord of the Rings Ever be Remastered?" I think this is one of the best videos about Peter Jackson's trilogy on RUclips.
Basically, I think I learned that I should read the books
This is all simply a matter of using movie time and screenplay adaptation to compress a complex story into a more manageable framework for the big screen.
Given that an unspecified time skip is already present in the film, there's no harm in imagining that much more time passes.
Especially since it is reasonably impossible to consider that less than a few years could have passed in the film given what is declared by Gandalf himself: "I looked everywhere for this Gollum but the enemy found him before me".
Scouring Middle-earth takes time, just going back and forth between the Shire and Gondor necessarily takes months, if only geographically speaking (it takes Boromir almost 4 months to go from Gondor to in Rivendell for example, then it certainly takes around ten months for Gandalf, at least, just to go back and forth between Gondor and the Shire...)
I never felt that the time passed in the nook was just a year, it could have easily been the 17 years.
@@christianemden7637 yes personally I consider it plausible. In any case, ten years does not seem impossible to me and then we can see that in the film the dates and the geography of Middle Earth do not seem to want to differ from those in the book.
I’d swear i saw “Ted Sandyman” in the credits of the extended edition, next to the actor that played him of course. So probably no need for speculating who’s who in the Green Dragon scene, the credits should confirm it 🙂.
So I just checked and indeed they are there. The 3 unnamed hobbits at the tavern's table are
Gaffer Gamgee - Normal Forsey
Old Noakes - William Johnson
Ted Sandyman - Brian Sergent
And indeed they did the book-badass Maggot dirty in the movies:
Farmer Maggot - Cameron Rhodes
Very cool please do more
Sam and Frodo were always friends, and their friendship was never in question despite the part in the movies where Frodo takes Gollum's side over Sam's and sends him home.. That never happens in the books
Haha saying that some of us watching a LOTR video on RUclips, may not have seen the extended cut is hilarious.
One thing I will note. I definitely think that the theatrical releases are totally valid to show someone on their first viewing of the movies.
Very true, especially if they’ve never read the books and are used to typical “entertainment” movies. Just recently watched with somebody who isn’t into epic fantasy style, and they were like “how are we an hour in and they still haven’t done anything?” 😂
I just wish we got to see Tom Bombadil
Thank you
One thing I've always wondered is: if Sam is Frodo's gardener, why do (in the movie) Frodo's fingernails look like he is his own gardener?
Haha such a good point 😂