GARMIN Costs Detailed | How much to upgrade the avionics panel in PA-28-181 Archer
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2020
- You asked for it. Here is a detailed, totally transparent review of the actual costs for a Garmin panel upgrade in my 1980 Piper Archer II. So many of you wanted to know how much it set me back to do this job, and here is the answer for you, as well as a strong recommendation for the shop that did the work.
I had a full suite of Garmin avionics installed: Dual G5 installation, GFC 500 Autopilot with optional trim, GTR 225, GTX 345, Flightstream 510, and a JPI EDM 830 engine monitor.
If you're thinking of doing a job like this, or any Avionics work, check out Freedom Aviation @ KLYH. There's nothing in it for me, other than the satisfaction of spreading the word about a business that did great work for me. Great results and customer service deserves a paying forward.
Freedom Aviation
Jason Moorefield, Avionics Manager
434-237-8434
When you spent the hard dollars and still feel good afterwards that's the best feeling
MIke - thank you so much for an informed, honest, and detailed account of your Piper Archer avionics upgrade. I have a 1986 Archer II and have often pondered tackling some upgrades to the panel. Your presentation and explanation was sincere, informative, and detailed. It will certainly help with any research and decisions I consider. Best of luck to you, enjoy that gorgeous panel. Eamon
Thank you, Eamon! I sincerely appreciate the kind words!
First rate explanation and sharing of the details.
Thanks for being so open with this information! I'm thinking hard about following your footsteps on the lease back plan, and I'm hearing all those well-meaning friends telling me I'd be crazy. But I like the whole idea very much, and I like the idea of helping my selected flight school grow their fleet. I smashed the like button, and then remembered I was on my own computer, so I'm trying to fix it myself to save some money.
😂 I take no responsibility for your computer. But I loved your comment, nonetheless! Hey, if a leaseback is in the cards for you, go for it. It can be a great feeling to partner with a flight school and make it a win/win. Best of luck if you decide to do it.
@wildbillturkey I remembered this comment and wanted to let you know I’m working on a complete online course to share all my knowledge/experience regarding a leaseback. The need has never been greater with all the training going on. Stay tuned!
@@MikeWebb-FlyingFinanciallyFree Are you paying more in repairs more frequently leasing your piper?
really appreciate this. its exactly the video I needed to make my decision to purchase a plane. im also conveniently in the commercial aviation program at liberty university so this would even give me a reason to visit the campus!
I was one of the people that asked for this video and I have to thank you for making it. It put a lot of things in perspective for me regarding the work that needed done, prices of parts, and budget. Very glad you included the invoices. Looking forward to more of your videos!
You're very welcome! I'm glad it provided some good insight for you and let me know what you want to see moving forward.
@@MikeWebb-FlyingFinanciallyFree Most aviation content I watch on RUclips are IFR flights like Martin Pauly does to various class B's or Premier 1 Driver. or educational videos like Avweb (well researched topics presented with facts and statistics and such). If you put out this sort of content then I'll definitely be a regular viewer of yours
@@emrebaskocak I'd definitely like to do more flight videos like my Double Class Bravo vid. Have a bunch of footage from some trips that I'm working through. I figure providing some unique stuff that few others are doing (leaseback, panel costs) is important, too. Appreciate the feedback!
@@MikeWebb-FlyingFinanciallyFree Oh yes absolutely, your videos about leaseback, panel costs etc were great. I look forward to those trips!
Great videos Mike, God bless!!!
You are amazing. Keep up the great work and your panel is slick!!!
Thanks, Bruno! Appreciate it!
Hey, everyone! By request -- here's a DETAILED cost breakdown of my Garmin panel upgrade. Hope you like the info and it helps you moving forward!
Really helps thank you. Been looking for some ball park numbers, which as you know isn’t easy. Looking to buy another plane and trying to determine to buy with a nice panel or upgrade to what I would like. I think you picked the right things for now and future. Thanks for sharing
Thanks! I'm glad you found it useful in your search.
Really appreciate this! Considering something like this on my Cardinal. Cost was less than what I thought it would be too.
Hope it helps you in your planning!
honestly the engine monitor feels like a must at this point
Thank you Mike for the info. Planning avionics upgrade and this helped greatly. 😊
Glad to help!
@@MikeWebb-FlyingFinanciallyFree Mike it helps more than you know. I’m sure you too, we’re there in the planning and finances.
...beyond "informative," more importantly, to me and for me was your actual presentation. No 'ahhhs, ummms' etc., etc. You did the deep dive research for a packed presentation. Very enjoyable.
Appreciate it, David!
I’m really liking this content Mike
Thanks! Glad you’re enjoying it!
Just awesome! Thank you so much!
Stoked you liked it, Ben!
Thank you!
You’re welcome!
That's about as much as I want to spend on a piper right now.. Might be flying with gauges for 5 years but hey gotta start somewhere
Mike I enjoyed your. Vid. Very clear and pro.
Mike K.
Awesome, thank you!
Hey Mike, I love your videos and I'm very interested in eventually following in your footsteps and going the leaseback route. Quick question for you. Given that you likely won't recoup the labor costs associated with avionics upgrades do you think it's optimal to spend more buying a plane with a better panel vice doing the upgrades post buying?
Hey Alex. Thanks for the compliments! It depends on your goals. If you can find a plane that has what you want already in it, it may make sense to spend more to buy that one bc it will likely be less than doing it yourself. (Exceptions always exist, of course) Other times, getting a great price on a ‘fixer upper’ is the way to go. It really depends on your time/energy/funds.
Came out cheaper than i was expecting it to have been.
Yeah, that's not surprising to hear. When shopping for quotes, I got them all over the map for the different 'discrepencies' -- especially the GFC500 job. It helps to go with experienced shops that don't charge the consumer to learn how to do a job.
I asked about the cost in the other video... Sorry... One more thing... There is a company called Approach Faststack that I ran into at Oshkosh. They provide cables and a unique hub to plug in various electronic devices. The owner had put together a bundle of Garmin stuff, 2 G5s, a Garmin navigator, another com, ADS-B transponder, and com panel. Right at $20K. I wonder if that would reduce some of the cost? Once the hub is in there, if you add another piece, you just get the cable and plug it in. Thanks for the video. Oh yeah, from the looks of all the guitars, money isn't a problem.... I should talk.. I have 10 guitars..
Hey in your video you mentioned you have air conditioning. What exact model do you have that comes with AC. I want to plane with AC but it seems like they are hard to come by.
All in all I believe you did quick well.
I agree! Thanks for watching!
Original Bazooka Bubble gum! 10 large wrappers got you a free camera. 👍👍
By the way, love the break down. Spent 100k on mine.😮
Love that you remember the Bazooka prizes! Gotta love panel upgrades - It’s get pricey quick, doesn’t it?
@@MikeWebb-FlyingFinanciallyFree
And worth every penny, imho. 😉
@@fly-n-m9445 Agreed
Curious what the difference would have been if you had just installed a G1000 or G3X? I'm looking at buy an old 182 and redoing the panel as well.
I considered it, indeed. The G3X had just come out when I was doing this. I was told it would've been at least $15k more, as there's a lot more work to be done setting up all the wiring harnesses and interfacing with a full glass setup vs. the 'hybrid' approach I ended up doing.
Nice guitars! Everyone should have 1LP.
Nice explanation! I see in your picture you a new engine monitor...what kind is it? Also, how were you able to keep the original gauges? Thanks
It's the JPI EDM 830. The original gauges were easy to keep; the monitor went in a spot previously occupied by a CDI.
Really nice ! So the original Archer senders worked with JPI. ?
They had to add new probes and sensors with the install of the monitor, but it does not know the fuel levels in the tanks without input from the user. It does measure fuel flow accurately, however, with transducers calibrated to the correct K-factor.
One last question. Which gauges of the old are functional? Thank you
Everything that remains is fully functional.
It cost more than a third, almost half of a Warrior I am looking. Like they said avionics didn't really give a lot of return to the value.
37k is probably worthwhile for a Bonanza or even a Mooney but a bit too much for a normal Cherokee, but it is your plane, priceless for making it the way you wanted.
I don't think the price, for what you got and the labor to put it in, was that bad. I mean, when you look at it, the labor itself was a third of the cost, and skilled avionics technicians don't come cheap. To upgrade what you did most certainly increases the value of the aircraft, but as you said in the other video, you're not going to get what you paid for the new stuff back, even if you sold the airplane today, but I'd be willing to bet you'd get $20-25K more than what you would have gotten from before the upgrades.
There's a 1981 Archer II with 8,000 hours, Aspen two screen, a new Bendix/King Aerocruze 100 (which is a TruTrack Cruze100 autopilot) I guess Bendix/King must have bought them out. This Archer also has a Garmin GNX375 GPS/Transponder and an old Bendix/King NavCom. They're asking $115K for it, which I guess with the upgrades might almosrrt be about right. There are some other Archers without current avionics upgrades that are less, but maybe $40,000 or so.
So, if you think that the avionics upgrade is about one third of the value of the airplane, I think that's a reasonable price to have paid.
Now, say I was to get something like a Malibu. Here's a nice 1986 Malibu for $315,000. Five thousand hours with less than 500 on a reman'd TSIO-550 engine. However, it has old avionics, even though it has a couple of GNS navigators in it. Well, one, a GNS-530W.
www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/201395745/1986-piper-malibu-piston-single-aircraft
If you're seen N444DT, RUclips channel 'Malibu Flyer' he ended up with a complete new panel, probably in the range of $100-125K, which again, is about one third the price of the above Malibu.
ruclips.net/video/3AJl0J3abpw/видео.html
By the way, I've lost my medical, I'm not current, and I don't ever expect to be flying again, but I still can dream. :)
So, I think what you paid for your install, for what you got, was about right, between the hardware and the labor.
Nasty. Would a G3x not have been worth the difference or would that spiral?
I work in the recreational marine industry, on time and on budget do not exist. Seriously though, those prices seem quiet reasonable.
Saw that the plane is owned by your investment co. Do you use it for biz? Any sources you can point me to related to smart structuring of a plane purchase?
How much would cost new avionics for a Long EZ?
Some advice from an expert in the field of avionics. 37 years in avionics and I own two avionics shops. First the good. Great pricing! Also being on time for a job like that is really good! Now some constructive criticism. First don’t ever show work orders, logbook entries on your channel. It makes you and the shop liable if a FAA rep was trolling and found issues. Right away I can tell you the airplane is unairworthy by the invoice. If I read the invoice right they replaced one fuel hose. This is a common mistake. The JPI manual requires that both hoses be replaced. The hose in AND out of the new fuel flow transducer must be replaced with new TSO’d hoses. Reusing the original hose is not an option. The next problem is the listed circuit breakers. They are the common 7277 series. Great circuit breakers and very common in general aviation. But unfortunately not legal in this install. Most Garmin products require the slightly more expensive 7274 mil spec series circuit breakers. Any way I’m not trying to cause trouble, Just giving free advice. I’d give the shop a 8/10 if they are willing to fix the two problems. Enjoy your new avionics. You made some good choices.
So does one stay away from the shop because of the oversights that you pointed out? While I was really impressed with the pricing, that seems to be a pretty bad oversight? Not trying to put down the shop one bit . I don’t own yet and I’m trying to learn
@@in2flying you just need to do your own risk assessment. If someone installs something improperly the general thought is that it’s on that shop. The FAA doesn’t look at it that way. Somehow you are expected even as a pilot to know everything about the installation and make sure it is all done properly so you aren’t flying an unairworthy airplane. Which is pretty crazy! Talk to people that have used the shop and see what they have to say. Most people care about two things. The price and will it work when I pick it up from the shop. I see every day that people are putting things in illegally and people say “ Well as long as it works”. Which is fine until a hard nosed FAA rep inspects your airplane. Or you damage the airplane and the insurance claim doesn’t go through because the airplane is technically unairworthy. All in all the shop did fine. They just didn’t read the manual thoroughly. If someone bring this up to them, and they actually have an interest in doing better, then they will learn and be better off because of it. We all learn from our mistakes, if we chose to that is.
I don't know how much profit a shop makes on parts versus labor, but as is common amongst many technician shops today, it appears they charged "book" time rather than actual time. Well over 100 hrs in three days is not possible even if two people were working simultaneously, which is highly unlikely. Plus there appears to be a long of "nickel and dime" charge on that bill. Normally I wouldn't say anything, but this trend in aviation is a barrier to entry.
@@anonymous-yg1hy There is no book. I can't speak for other shops but I charge a 10% markup and then what time I think the job will take. It always takes more time than I quote. So I guess I'm on the other side of the spectrum.
I’m not sure where you’re getting the 3 day thing as this job was completed over 2 weeks. So, the 100 hours were easily accounted for.
Im actually thinking to follow your foot steps now mate...
Hope I helped you with your decision-making!
@@MikeWebb-FlyingFinanciallyFree Thank you mate...
When its due for me to buy the airplane I think I will ask for your opinion too mate.
Did you not install a G500txi because you needed the G5 for the autopilot? G500txi w/ESI vs 2 G5s and the JPI not ridiculously that far apart in cost considering what you paid.
Hey Mark, I looked at the G500 but I was told be my shop that the labor to install that would far exceed the all-in cost of this job, especially with a new panel needing to be cut, etc. And that wouldn’t include the Autopilot and G5 to drive it (as you mentioned). I considered it, but this seemed to be the best solution, since it’s main purpose is still as a trainer.
@@MikeWebb-FlyingFinanciallyFree Good to know. Roughly, what would have been the cost for a G500txi ESI setup w/a GFC500? Seems everyone wants to treat the install price a national secret. I really want a Twin Comanche, but by the time you add a G600, GTN750, and GFC600 (which does not have an STC yet) I seems like I could have gotten a pressurized Malibu like 444DT for the same money.
Mark, the difference in pricing between the G500TXi with EIS and the work Mike did would easily be double. Maybe more. They are world apart in function and price. Think 1965 Cessna 172 vs a new Cirrus.
Was following along, was the total at 6:54 of $37,768,47 the total for everything with labor and taxes ?
That’s correct, Lenny.
Thanks Mike. Informative video. About to get two G5s and a GAD28B installed into our Cherokee 235. We already have a JPI EDM and GTX345. GFC500 And new GPS will be a ways off.
Hello I need an instrument rating. Please tell me where your Archer is based. Thank you.
KHEF. If you’re close it would serve you well.
Thank you. I found it: American Aviation. I will seriously consider this. Thank you again.
how about some pix of your new panel?
I take it you didn't watch to the end.... starting at 11:10 you can see the new panel. Cheers!
wow tha tis not bad at all. i just spent 260 grand on a glass panel on my 81 414 and took them 7 months
Yeah, those cabin class twins always find a way to make everything more expensive, don’t they?
Would you say it’s a little cheaper to have this upgrade on a C172
Don’t think so, per se. The costs are going to be mainly driven by the components and the installer labor rates. Some installers may find it easier to work with a 172 panel - some not.
@@MikeWebb-FlyingFinanciallyFree Thank you so much for taking the time to put all this information out to the public.
I'm assuming this is an IFR legal panel. The turn coordinator is removed. If the Attitude Indicator fails, there is no partial panel for reference. So, what is the backup attitude information?
Also, you already had the Garmin GPS installed. How much did that cost?
The 2nd G5 in the HSI position has a reversionary role if the top G5 were to fail. With one push of a button it can provide the same PFD info.
I’m Working on ppl in DMV
What % of that do you believe you would recoup in a sale? 60-70%?
Good question! Only the market will bear that answer out, if and when I tried to sell. I believe the conventional wisdom is you won't recoup any of the labor cost. Depends on the popularity of the parts for the rest, I suppose.
Mike Webb still worth it IMHO. You have a well equipped plane for 100’k under new. I noticed you also had a PITOT leak, curious if you would have noticed and when without a shop finding that or electronics to verify accuracy.
@@N937LC I'm guessing it would've been found in the next pitot/static certification test... but it was nice to have the leak discovered and remedied during this process. You're right in that I may have been flying around with some inaccurate numbers and didn't even know it!
Really fantastic video. This information is worth it's weight in gold (does information have weight?). Anyway, really valuable for me. Thank you.
Thanks! Glad you liked it!
Airplanes just like boats have a built in 'tax', think of a figure for equivalent domestic equipment, then double or triple the price.
That’s a fair way to look at it, and I agree.
I own a bonanza c35 I don’t think I can justify paying the ultra uber high prices for modernizing to modern avionics but I can dream😂. For the rest of you I guess that taking out a second or third mortgage is well worth it!
It's certainly not cheap!!
But,, certified avionics are more expensive than experimental units aren't they???
Hi Russell. Yes, certified avionics are considerably more expensive than experimental, but you can't put experimental in certified aircraft. Also, this airplane is used in commercial operations which you can't do (typically) with experimentals.
You have AIR CONDITIONING in your Archer???🤤🤤🤤
But, of course. As with any 1980's era device, It just doesn't always work. 😄
More interested in Proline Fusion upgrades and cost…
Ha! Yeah, I think you need to be on the Jet pages for that stuff.
G1000 upgrade is sufficient. Figures I get are 350-400 but if there is anyone good that does it for less I would like to know…
@@Naija4K To my understanding you can't upgrade to a G1000, as that is part of the type certificate of a plane upon production. The closest you could do is G600TXI PFD/MFD, and then you'd need to add an appropriate navigator(s). The G1000 is all integrated and only available from the factory. But hey, I could be wrong.
I’m looking for a King Air, for a cheaper Avionics solution than the big sticker one I am getting.
I’m looking for a King Air, for a cheaper Avionics solution than the big sticker one I am getting.
You can't put a price on great customer service.
Very much agree!
A $700 adapter.. sheesh...
On time and on budget? Has never happened in all the airplanes I've owned. Got tired of it and bought an experimental.
thats why too much money
Half the value of the entire airplane
I’m sorry; are you saying this airplane was worth ~$50k? Tell me you don’t own an airplane without telling me you don’t an airplane.
@@MikeWebb-FlyingFinanciallyFree I know prices are inflated, but I looked to put in a 530 and new CDI and antenna a few years ago, was $15k without any other work. Can’t understand why it would take two full working weeks for a relatively simple install. Avionics shops gouge. My PA28 was probably worth 35. Needless to say I use FF and VORs.
The question is why would anyone charge 2 hours for an 8 hour job. Why would anyone charge 20 hours for a 40 hour job. Unless you enjoy donating your time, cut corners or avionics is a lost leader I fail to see the end game.