You did not mention what Vail pulled at Steven's Pass in Washington State. They dropped each resort workers hours below 40/week so they did not have to pay employee benefits! And as a result, at least half quit, and Stevens ended up closing half of the mountain, essentially cheating the Season Pass holders out of their money's worth. The State Attorney General did investigate, but I don't know the outcome. I spoke to a lot of pissed-off season pass holders on the lifts at Mount Baker Ski Area who were driving all that way from the Everett and Seattle areas.
They actually did a pretty good job of recovering from that (definitely due in large part to how much bad press they got). They fired the resort manager and brought in one of their better managers, a guy who used to manage Stevens for a long time in the past. He bumped pay, got more workers back, and within two weeks the backside was open again and stayed open for the rest of the season. Then back in April they sent an email to season pass holders who went to Steven's and gave them a big discount on next year's pass. They messed up pretty bad, but they did a respectable job recovering from it so I think they do deserve a little credit there. But December and January were awful, huge lift lines and with even some of the base lifts not open on Weekends.
I agree with everything minus giving Vail Resorts ANY good credit. Another part of the reason they lost so many employees was because of their BS covid vaccination policy. And let’s not leave Crystal out of the conversation. They constantly filled up the parking lots forcing people to turn around and drive all the way back to civilization (the resort is about an hour away from the nearest city). What was their answer to this problem? Charge people for parking!!
The whole consolidation of all these resorts has been a huge negative. I hate the hoops they make you go thru to buy the pass. What do you get for it? Spamming and them selling off your data. Tell me how many ski runs I have done? Who cares? Every scintilla of data is examined and a way found to monetize. You are being herded into chutes to be sold off to the highest bidder.
Having worked part time and skied Vail for years, I always believed Vail to be the "gold standard" of the ski resort industry. Customer service, experience, and enjoyment was key. Now it seems customer experience is an after thought to share holder experience. As with all publicly held companies, shareholders become the focus, not the customer. Add in the top management being compensated with stock, well their decision making is only focused on how they can gain wealth and not how they can make the customer happy.
Vail and really all the big resorts certainly have discouraged midwestern families like mine. We would probably take a family trip for a week each year, but if you only ski 3-5 days, the lift ticket prices are completely unreasonable. I understand the EPIC and IKON passes can be great deals for locals and people who can travel for multiple ski weeks. But for thousands of us skiers (or potential skiers) who live in the Midwest, and already have to drop a big load of time and money on travel and lodging, $200 daily lift tickets are just the nail in the coffin. Many of us grew up on a time when families could drive out to Colorado for a ski week, and it generated fond memories. But now a father, mother and 4 kids would have to spend over $4k just to ski 4 days. That doesn’t include the lodging, travel, meals, lessons, etc. It seems like a pretty big untapped market they are overlooking, and our children will have little or no interest to ski out West for the future.
Did you know I am originally from Wisconsin and worked retail, restaurants and ski patrol in Vail and Beaver Creek for over 25 years combined. Your price of 4k is laughable and won't get you and your family in the front door. A week? the Corporate model doesn't include you and want you and your family to buy Epic passes. That's the hook... then you'll come more than a week and in some cases, families come 2-3 times a season. Did you know the average families that visits Vail Resorts spends 10-50k on their ski trips? It's not uncommon they spend more! Imagine this... you get airfare for your family of four, you rent the car, or take a Vail Express van, you stop at Vail's coffee house on I-70 on the way there for a couple $5 coffees and water. Then you're off to the Vail Hotel, then off to dinner at Vail restaurants, then you gotta rent everyone everything at Vails's retail shops, skis, boots, helmet, goggles, hand warmers, snacks, etc. Vail would absolutely prefer you get ski or snowboard instruction and then stop at the lodge for a $18 dollar cheese burger without french fries because those are separate and $15. Then, after a long day it's Apres at the Vail owned slopeside bar and don't forget shopping at Vail's retail... again! Kids need Beaver Creek swag! Then finally, off to dinner at Vail Steakhouse. You know that's gonna cost you. Then, back to your hotel for a good night sleep so you can do it all over again x 5 days? Oh, don't forget to take the Vail Express back to the airport and finally, one more stop at the Vail Coffee shop. I call this "The Big Cash Grab." If you think Vail is about skiing... you're sadly mistaken. Skiing is a commodity that is sold and now traded. This is a corporate formula to squeeze every last nickel and dime from wealthy families and visitors... whether you ski or not. Vail Resorts is a round table of MBAs in Broomfield, CO. They could care less if you like skiing... Do you get it now?
@@jeffspicoli2643 Thanks for the lengthy response. My $4k number was only for lift tickets. Like I said, Western resorts seem to have simply forsaken the Midwestern market which substantially helped to build the sport to begin with. I’m well aware of all the extra costs, as I have taken my family from Michigan to places like Solitude, Tahoe, and Big Sky in the past, and I have done several “guys trips” and professional conference trips over the years to Colorado, Utah, Idaho and Canada.
Vail owns and sells the Epic Pass. Their largest competitor is Alterra, which owns and sells the Ikon Pass. Either one is a bargain for anyone who skis a few days at each of several resorts during ski season. But the daily lift ticket rices have gone through the roof over the past couple of years. Last year Dear Valley (Alterra) had a daily lift ticket price of $229, yes, per day! And the adjacent Park City The One (PCMR + The Canyons) was about the same. This is almost double of what it was two or three years earlier. And for example, at Deer Valley the Senior Citizen season pass is now $1900 if purchased before a certain date in October. Two or three years ago it was $900 plus tax. Yikes!
Since the focus here is money consider this... On average, over the passed 8 yrs, I have purchased an Epic "Local" pass for just over $500, early season. During the late '80's I lived in Summit County Colorado and purchased their local pass for all 4 resorts (excluding Loveland at that time) for $450-485. I disagree with many things VR does, one thing they do well is deliver an affordable pass.
And for the people complaining about daily lift ticket prices, I totally get that. But if you plan on making it a little bit of a trip you can buy multi-day passes at IKON resorts for less than $500.
Hey quick question--what would the college class name be for the subject of your video? Would it likely be financial management, business mgmt, entrepreneurship, acquisition, business administration, etc?
Vail Resorts Management Company is a publicly traded company (MTN). A great way for the communities impacted by the management decisions of vail is to acquire shares and voice their grievances at annual Shareholder meetings and initiate change through shareholder voting privileges. Shareholders can decide who and how a company is managed.
This would take a solid undergrad in Finance and couple years of prof experience to read, analyze, catch the trend and write a great report. Maybe a CFA😂😂😂 great video and info! Thanks a lot
super informative !! I loved learning about the economics of Vail Resorts and the details behind their operations. Thanks for making, looking forward to future videos!
As a skier, and having an MBA in finance, this is one of the clearest explanations of the numbers I've seen. Still, that massive "other" expense category really needs a deeper dive. I'd have to think that most of the acquisition costs and costs of new lifts/terrain expansion has to be capitalized. It's also interesting that Vail isn't succeeding in hotels and timeshare sales.
Great callout Andrew! One thing we should have mentioned is that Vail Resorts has $2.7 billion in long term debt, which likely includes the majority of the overall cost to acquire new resorts and carry out new capital projects. The "other" expense category only contains the payments that were made this past fiscal year. Vail has access to a $500 million revolving line of credit and $1.1 billion debt facility. It looks like the company withdrew $335 million from the debt facility to acquire Peak Resorts in 2019, and that the principal on that is not due until 2025. However, the $117 million Seven Springs acquisition in Fiscal 2022 was funded entirely by cash on hand.
@@PeakRankings If Vail is focused on an EBITDA number, does "other" include interest on loans/revolvers/notes, taxes, depreciation, and amortization? I would have to think these are rather large numbers for Vail, as just the amortization of goodwill on all those acquisitions and depreciation of capital assets has to be huge.
“Rollups” have very poor financial transparency, with countless accounting tricks shrewd executives can play. Ebitda can end up being really misleading. That being said, like others have pointed out, the mountain states huge population growth is probably the biggest business driver and they have found a way to convince these folks to buy season passes.
They increase profits at the expense of the customer experience and by firing seasoned local professionals and treating their staff like garbage. Decisions are made hundreds to thousands of miles from the soak ski resorts in Broomfield, Colorado. That's how vail works and they are ruining the ski industry.
Vail only cares about rich customers, who can afford a $200 a day lift ticket + $40 to park + expensive gas +way overpriced food + equipment rental fees? When I grew up in the 1990's early 2000's you could get $50 lift tickets, gas was cheap, no parking fee, you buy you're own equipment for $500 and the food was alittle overpriced but not terrible. I learned to ski because my dad could afford to take me skiing 3 to 5 times a winter. I make 80k a year but I don't think I'll be able to do the same for my kids, I think eventually there will be a big drop in the number of skiers because alot of young people can't afford to ski enough to get good at it. Vail resorts will have killed the ski industry that will be their legacy. Before COVID I was about to get $1,000 season pass but after COVID season passes shot up to $2,000 or $3,000 which is too much for someone making an average income.
Corporate behemoths like Vail are ruining the ski industry; there is only so much you can hike prices before it is out of most people's budget. Passes like Ikon and Epic aren't helping, either. They may bring down the average cost to ski/ride, but resorts raise prices (in all business areas) to make up for the lift ticket shortfall from these passes. Ski touring is the way to go, with an occasional trip to a resort.
Being from Oklahoma, I went skiing at a resort that Vail owns in Kansas City called Snow Creek. Cool little ski area that's only about four hours from Tulsa, which for Oklahoma is really close for skiing. That trip was two years ago, and I still can't go more than two weeks without Vail Resorts sending me emails trying to entice me to buy an Epic pass. Like all corporations, they only care about how much money they can siphon off of you.
Request for a video comparing lift ticket prices at some notable resorts in Europe, East Asia (mostly Japan if we're being honest), and North America. Europe and Japan can be notoriously expensive in other ways which may even the overall costs out, but the lift ticket prices there are generally lower in the large resorts (with some exceptions). Some of the ticket prices at places like Whistler and Big Sky are absurd. It'd be interesting to know how some of the major resorts in Europe and Japan make money or if they are being subsidized or taking on debt. Here in Japan, resorts from the bubble era are dropping like flies every year it seems.
The up swing in revenue won't do them any good if there is no one to run the lift, park the kooks cars, serve/cook food, pour their dam mimosas, rent them gear, or teach ski school. There is no housing left in these mountain towns(Tahoe for sure), and the housing that is available is so expensive, nobody can afford it with a ski resort paycheck . Vail and/or the ppl that r buying all the housing in these ski towns better figure out a housing plan for the ppl that keep these places running. Pretty soon u'll have to teach "Kyle" & "Karen" how to bump chairs, if they want to use the lift🤷
Well at least in vail proper they tried to build new employee housing and got blocked by the town because all the people who stay in their 40 million dollar homes for only like 2-3 weeks a year voted against it. And looking through all the zoning in my area most of the usable land not directly at the bases of the mountains are held by other investment companies. There is a 400 acre stretch of land that has sold between 4 investment companies in the past 15 years and has gone up in price more than 20x in all of those sales. That could be over 500 normal single family houses or an insane amount of condos but instead it will sit empty until land as an investment is banned or some billionaire buys it and builds a mansion on it
When a company's customers make a year long commitment with their primary purchase from the company and considering that customer surveys don't accurately predict future purchases it is hard to predict the future financial condition of the company. This is only considering the year to year choices customers make about where to ski or snowboard. If we consider peoples choices to continue with ski and snowboard activities or switch to other activities the market and that customer response takes close to a decade it becomes even more difficult to forecast. People entering the sports also take a few years. So looking a just a half decade during which Vail Resorts had rapid expansion does not give a clear picture of how well Vail is actually doing. This is specially when we consider that some of the customer loyalty they are currently experiencing is to the ski areas that they purchased not to Vail Resorts. Another thing to consider if if and how Vail Resorts increased the number of customers they have. What percentage growth is by taking customer from other ski resort? What percentage of growth is by increasing the total number of skiers and snowboarder in the country? If they are not increasing the total number of skier and snowboarder in the country they will at some point run out of customer to take from other ski areas. Vail Resort does not seem to have ambitious programs to grow the total number of skiers and snowboarders. These programs are short term money losers that have long term benefits. Due to the costs these are things that make CEOs and CFOs look bad. From about the mid 1990's until about the mid 2010's the ski and snowboard industry focused on growing the industry by focusing on bringing new people into the activities. This was mostly by increasing the focus on beginners and novices. This was one of the factors in the recovery and growth of the industry during that time period. (Increase in snowboarding, reduced cost of season passes, terrain parks and other things were also factors.) This actually bucked a trend that was happening in the similar industry of guided whitewater rafting. During that time period the industry shrunk mostly due shrinking consumer buying power. My conclusion is that Vail Resorts' focus on the existing high spending customer base is great for them short term. It may be okay for Vail longer term. But it will likely have a negative impact on the ski and snowboard industry as a whole.
I’m in the business and the average 76$ per day of ski is crazy high. Average includes gratuities, children, free entrances and seasonal passes. In the Dolomites the average is 30 euros , or 30$ today , per day of ski. Dear American skiers, If you want to save money and ski great come in the Dolomites. With flight, accomodation and meals included a week skiing is much cheaper, and much better ( I lived in North America for over a decade ) in Europe. For those who do not know the Dolomites is the largest ski area in the world with over 450 lifts and 1200 km of groomed slopes.
I know VR uses approx. 15% less mountain employees than is required to operate the mountain from 8:00AM-4:00 PM. Their resorts very rarely open on time after any kind of storm, the way the resorts used to.
Back in the "good" old days, daily tickets were relatively affordable, and season passes very expensive. Had to log 30+ days/season just to break even if you bought a pass. Since resorts were more dependent on daily ticket sales, they (at least in my area) generally maintained a fairly high level of service throughout the season. Few people who actually worked for a living could justify buying a pass, but skiing 10 or 15 days a year was within reach. Now that annual passes are relatively cheap, and daily tickets astronomical, even the most casual riders buy a pass, since the break even point is often only 4 or 5 days. Since the resorts now get much of their revenue before the snow flys, there is ZERO incentive to provide a quality experience as the season starts to wind down. For example, we had a record amount of snow last year, but the local Vail owned operation started shutting down huge sections of the resort by March 1, even though much of the mountain was skiable well into May. As recently as 8-10 years ago, this resort used to brag about their extensive snowmaking system and grooming fleet. All of that is now long gone, along with even mediocre customer service. I've skied for 50+ years, and always thought I'd continue until I physically couldn't anymore. But now, at a healthy age 70, I feel like this might be my last season, at least with an Epic pass. Thanks, Vail 🙄🙄
After having made the switch from epic to ikon I will say that ikon is the far less evil of the two. Ikon mountains are well staffed, have less lines, and actually deliver on promises in my experience.
My big worry is them having no competition and prices shooting out of control! Otherwise I very much appreciate the access to mountains that they sell and accomodate.
VAIL HAS RUINED SKIING IN GENERAL FOR MOST FAMILIES. THEY OWN AND OPERATE 44 RESORTS IN NORTH AMERICA. VAIL IS THE AMAZON OF SKIING. GREED , GREED, GREED . A ONE DAY LIFT PASS AT VAIL NOW IS $ 237 USD . THAT IS INSANITY. EVEN BUYING A 6 DAY WEEK PASS THE 1 DAY IS STILL $214 A DAY. YOU CAN SKI ZERMATT SWITZERLAND FOR 96 EUROES A DAY .
Their salaries are far below industry average. I had an offer there that was laughable for a director level business position. About 30% under industry avg. Good luck to them, I love the resorts.
Thank you for the video, I certainly like hearing the business aspect of skiing. Can you expand this in another video to detail which of the many resorts under Vail is most profitable and is Vail looking at construction projects to get some of the older less profitable hills more attractive?
Not sure how this ended up in the feed lol! I retired from skiing 7 years ago after Vail took over the season passes and made my local mountain into a parking lot of people. I can still afford the prices but what’s the point when everything is tracked by hour 2 of opening and lines everywhere? No thanks rather spend my time and money doing other activities. Money has always been in the ski industry but 200 dollars for a lift ticket?!?! Eff that
I applied to be a lifty once as a joke, the application asked minimum pay and I wrote $25/hr. Couldn’t believe they actually called me, the vail lady was willing to do 14-16$. I was very clear that my application minimum pay way not negotiable. Half the mountain was closed at Stevens pass the next year due to staffing crisis.
$25/hr is an absurd ask for a lift assistant, especially if the company is willing to cover your housing/transportation/season ticket (big resorts usually do). What you think you're worth is not always what you get.
@@GuitarGuy650 there was no housing/ transportation included. Their revenue was substantially reduced after the ski patrol/ half the mountains workers left in a strike/ mass quit. I just liked being able to wave a dumb price in veils face as they do to their dumb customers. I now ride baker strictly and have not regretted it in the slightest lol.
Wild to remember that Vail first showed up on my radar screen in Third Avenue's Real Estate fund as a real estate operating company... now they lose money on real estate? The only constant is change...
The reason its more fair at ski resort towns is because if i decide that im not being treated fairly and find work elsewhere then they are down a worker and its really hard to find someone in the middle of winter especially because most people move for the seasonal roles. So if you are treating your staff poorly and there's still half the winter season left you're screwed. especially since its your Q3 that is supposed to make so much money everyone forgets about Q4
I’m heading to Whistler BC for the first time this upcoming winter. My wife wanted to go to more of a resort destination to mix it up, as I always enjoy smaller ski town terrain and vibes (such as big sky). I’m kinda nervous about the Whistler trip.
Once you get out of the valley bottom, terrain opens up massively, people spread out. It'll be a good idea to study the lifts beforehand as there's always alternatives should you arrive at a mid-mountain lift with a long wait (e.g. Emerald Chair). Whistler has a great local vibe if you can get away from the traps... tons of dedicated long time locals, but obviously the amount of visitors and short term "locals" are most prominent. Whistler was here before vail and will be here long after vail.
Skied small and large plus own a condominium at Creekside Whistler. Overall Whistler is wonderful. I do not eat at restaurants, but at my place. I have heard they are expensive; however, there are good AirBnBs, including mine, that charge reasonable rates. The mountain is big, and if you need equipment rent in Creekside or buy at the reuse-it center. You can take a bus to the resort since parking a car is a waste, if it is rented and it sits where you have to pay. Of course, you want to be able to walk to the lift. You can from both the village and Creekside.
Vail and whistler-blackcomb is a bad mix imo. Just because it is too much terrain that requires too much staff in such a low populated city that most of the terrain is left unaccessible for a majority of the season. They can't manage it or delegate management down well enough, like they can do with keystone and Breck. Even with vail resort being their competitor for visits, and neighbor.
How did they do on same store sales YoY? In other words, are they adding value to the individual resorts or is the profit growth coming from acquisitions? It would also be interesting to understand their acquisition strategy seeing as all the premier western resorts (which is where the big money is) are already taken
It's hard to tell for sure, but given that most of the recently acquired resorts have been small, regional mountains, it's very likely that retail sales increases came from already existing resorts. FWIW, Vail said retail revenue went up from 2021 due to "fewer COVID-19 related limitations and restrictions on our North American winter operations as compared to the prior year, as well as an increase in demand over the prior year." Also Vail looks to be expanding in Europe now-they acquired a majority stake in Swiss resort Andermatt-Sedrun this summer.
@@PeakRankings good info but I was referring to YoY comparisons for the same resort, not the retail stores. For example, are they able to realize increased profit contribution from whistler from one year to the next. It’s easy to grow through acquisitions. Much tougher to do with what you’ve already got. It may not be a fair comparison though given the Covid disruptions. It will also be interesting to see what they can do in the Alps. Most ski areas in the Alps operate as near non-profits that are owned by local hoteliers, restaurant owners and shopkeepers with the mountain operations intended to drive traffic into the town. That’s a key reason why European lift tickets are so cheap. One of the few North American resorts with a similar setup is Panorama.
Park City was once a classic ski town with an amazing vibe. Then Vail properties moved in and now the entire place caters to the super rich. Breaks my heart. F*** Vail.
@@Michael-fi5rd You are right they are owned by the town, not the resort. I did make that mistake. Public parking is $35 per day in the Town of Vail owned parking garages. This is where most people park when skiing at Vail. I've been skiing there for years and have never parked anywhere else. There used to be free parking at the golf course, but someone told me this past March that it no longer free to park there. Correct me if I am wrong? So where can you park for free in Vail other than at privately owned residences? Keystone, Breck, Sun Valley, Snow Basin, Bachelor and of course my local hill here in Washington are all places I ski that have free parking (so far).
@@Michael-fi5rd Thanks for the info. I have a cousin in Breck and Denver friends who have a condo in nearby Silverthorne. We mostly ski Vail when I am there. I've been skiing Breck and Vail since the early seventies.
Read their 10K they want to move towards advanced revenue sales to hold your money just like a bank and make money of your money, not off selling you a quality skiing experience
I was hoping that you would talk a little bit about their costs toward workers and them outsourcing their Customer Service to the Philippines (evident by my recent 3 phone calls to them). Also. Their website allows multiple purchases of the SAME season pass for the SAME season. What is that about? Will I get my money back?
Vail is actively ruining their resorts in the North East by ripping people off at Stowe and completely ignoring New Hampshire and letting those mountains fall into disarray.
excuse me, will the test be multiple choice, short answer or essay? 😉 awesome video. i really learned a lot. btw.... the 12:24 mark is some insanely gnarly terrain, where is it? so i don't accidentally find myself going down that.
At first when Vailk came to Park City, I didn't think it would be that bad. As the years have gone by it's really sad what they have done to the community of Utah and how things have changed for the worse in many ways. The fundamental ticket is so outrageously priced that it discourages people who built the ski industry in Utah and forces other resorts to compete at the same level. Skiing is still good, but now most everyone has a sour taste in their mouth and it feels like a cheap experience
No wonder Vail makes money, it's the MacDonalds of skiing. Wherever you go its the same . Relatively flat terrain, lots of slope side amenities and easy access. If it's want the skiing public wants it's what they gets at Vail resorts. Disneyland in the Mountains!!
The local tahoe pass which includes heavenly and northstar is around $550. Meanwhile, a season pass at a small mountain in Truckee like Boreal, which is about half the size of both resort costs $500. Why would i not go for the EPIC pass? especially since i can even go to other resorts if I want to go on a trip ..
Industry trends suggest that just over half of destination resort visitors are intermediate-level, with beginners and experts making up a quarter each. Would imagine the revenue distributions are similar; beginners will probably spend more on lessons but ski fewer days on a typical trip (or qualify for discounted tickets due to age).
The analysis takes the typical short term view. The focus on passes has provided a short term revenue boost is also behind the long term decline of the sport. The greed exhibited by day pass costs, which new skiers and families use, makes the cost prohibitive for new people to enter the sport. Passes are find for people who live close to the resorts and have a reasonable expectation of getting the value out of it. For those who live even a couple hundred miles a way they make less sense. Everyone I know who purchased the passes found they didn't use them enough. The decline in skiing shows a classic price-elasticity response. The solution isn't complex, stop punitive pricing on day passes. If your average cost/day is $75 then the day pass should be no more than 50% above that. The problem is that when you hire MBAs you get a perspective that extends about 3 months out.
To the folks at Peak Rankings this is an EXCELLENT summary of VR's Financial Condition, We were homeowners in Beaver Creek in the early 2,000's so we've watched with interest as VR has expended, improved their Resorts, experimented with various Access products (passes etc) and tinkered with the pricing offered to less profitable Day Skiers vs highly profitable Destination Skiers. (almost always to the great annoyance of local Day Skiers). Here are two things I found surprising in your findings: 1) That they don't make more money on Real Estate. I mean, that's their business, right? They own Mountains and Condos and Retail and Restaurants. Maybe they are in a "buy and hold" mode right now, but I thought that would generate more income. 2) That they did so well through the Pandemic. What other travel / tourist / active vacation / family activity made ANY money during the Pandemic? (please comment if you can think of any). If EVERYBODY else lost money and VR broke even or even made a little money, that is the mark of a Strong Management Team who had done some thoughtful pre-planning. Nice work. I'm not here to Promote Vail Associates - they don't mean anything to me. But what I will promote is Snow Skiing / Boarding as an OUTSTANDING Family activity that can serve as the Cold Weather Cornerstone of many, many great Family outings that will help bond your family together. No, it's not cheap. But what is? Disney? (please) Siting on a beach? (boring) Cruise Ship (get more COVID?) Skiing is something everyone can approach on their own level of competence, something you can do on a day trip basis in many part of this Country, and for those special Family Vacations, nothing beats a ski trip at a great Destination Resort. We all want nice places to go on Vacation and we all want good value. Guess what? Nobody's going to do that for you for free! Skiing is a massively capital intensive "product" (who else has to buy a mountain?) that has the variable risk component of weather (in a warming world)... so it's no gimme for Ski Area Owners. I think you said... "They know what they're doing, and they do it well". I would agree. Let's give Vail Resorts credit-where-credit-is-due and encourage them to continue to invest in their Resorts, improve pay and working conditions for their Workforce, and be good stewards of the Land. They take care of the Resorts, we'll enjoy the Product! Note to those who have complaints... take out a piece of paper, go to the Post Office and buy a $,40 cent stamp, and write the CEO a letter. YOU MIGHT BE AMAZED at the response you'll get! Lots of people bitch on Social Media but not that many people write old fashioned letters, so they tend to carry outsized weight in the minds of the Company leaders. (Like 100:1)
@@lisayist I've never experienced crazy lift lines like Vail gets at any Ikon resort. Ikon passes are about $200-$300 more, and you get less crowds for the price.
@@nylla6161 lol not sure you've been to copper mountain. The longest wait I've seen is 20 minutes on holidays, it's usually a 5 minute wait. I rode there for at least 40 days last season
@@herbertthepervert4260 people legit wait an 10+ minutes on I-70 just to exit, then you have to park far away and take a shuttle just to get to a base lift. Sounds just as bad as Breck to me. Also 5 minute wait is rough, if it’s not ride on or maybe one person in front, than it’s busy. Even Breck lines aren’t 5 minutes on non peak days unless you’re riding the base chair all day for some reason…
Unpopular opinion, save for a few blunders Vail treats their employees better than any other ski company. I work for Vail. Our Benefits are better, our pay is WAY better and, they give their department heads a massive budget to improve their equipment. We have the highest minimum wage ($20/$21) in the nation.
Vail Resorts gave itself a major black eye in the State of New Hampshire based on what happened at the resorts they managed in the 2021/2022 season. The bad old days of hour and a half lift lines and the like at Sunapee. Selling a ton of season passes and then screwing people who show up with an insanely busy resort would not seem viable as a long term business plan.
2.5 BILLION Dollars? I didn't even know that so many people go skiing in the US. I thought it's the fringe sport of fringe sports! ;-) There must be Millions of people buing tickets each year!
Real skiers support their local mountain & refuse to ski at a Vail resort! Vail pulls “the wool” over your eye to suck you in and to suck your money! All while most of their resorts they acquire go to shit! Big corporations like Vail is what’s wrong with America!
I really hope they don't expand more here in Switzerland/Europe generaly. I don't really mind that they aquired Andermatt-Sedrun, it's not the best resort and I've only been there like twice but I'd be extremely mad if they aquired some of the good ski resorts and 'americanice' them, thus turning them to s**t. I mean what the heck even is mountain safety?
You did not mention what Vail pulled at Steven's Pass in Washington State. They dropped each resort workers hours below 40/week so they did not have to pay employee benefits! And as a result, at least half quit, and Stevens ended up closing half of the mountain, essentially cheating the Season Pass holders out of their money's worth. The State Attorney General did investigate, but I don't know the outcome. I spoke to a lot of pissed-off season pass holders on the lifts at Mount Baker Ski Area who were driving all that way from the Everett and Seattle areas.
They actually did a pretty good job of recovering from that (definitely due in large part to how much bad press they got). They fired the resort manager and brought in one of their better managers, a guy who used to manage Stevens for a long time in the past. He bumped pay, got more workers back, and within two weeks the backside was open again and stayed open for the rest of the season. Then back in April they sent an email to season pass holders who went to Steven's and gave them a big discount on next year's pass. They messed up pretty bad, but they did a respectable job recovering from it so I think they do deserve a little credit there. But December and January were awful, huge lift lines and with even some of the base lifts not open on Weekends.
Fuck vail
I agree with everything minus giving Vail Resorts ANY good credit. Another part of the reason they lost so many employees was because of their BS covid vaccination policy.
And let’s not leave Crystal out of the conversation. They constantly filled up the parking lots forcing people to turn around and drive all the way back to civilization (the resort is about an hour away from the nearest city). What was their answer to this problem? Charge people for parking!!
@@Ggzerbe4 Crystal is owned by Boyne, not Vail. Stevens is Vail. Crysthole and Snowlessqualmie are Boyne.
Yet...they still go there as there were no options of supporting a REAL hill!! So sad.
Vail is in the business of selling season passes not managing their resorts.
Yep, their CEO only knows to sell stuff, not deliver what's been promised
The whole consolidation of all these resorts has been a huge negative. I hate the hoops they make you go thru to buy the pass. What do you get for it? Spamming and them selling off your data. Tell me how many ski runs I have done? Who cares? Every scintilla of data is examined and a way found to monetize. You are being herded into chutes to be sold off to the highest bidder.
Bail on vail
@@jameszeng2666 what’s been promised and what hasn’t been sold
Yet they are constantly investing in infrastructure and more resorts how terrible 🥴🥴
Having worked part time and skied Vail for years, I always believed Vail to be the "gold standard" of the ski resort industry. Customer service, experience, and enjoyment was key.
Now it seems customer experience is an after thought to share holder experience.
As with all publicly held companies, shareholders become the focus, not the customer.
Add in the top management being compensated with stock, well their decision making is only focused on how they can gain wealth and not how they can make the customer happy.
Vail and really all the big resorts certainly have discouraged midwestern families like mine. We would probably take a family trip for a week each year, but if you only ski 3-5 days, the lift ticket prices are completely unreasonable. I understand the EPIC and IKON passes can be great deals for locals and people who can travel for multiple ski weeks. But for thousands of us skiers (or potential skiers) who live in the Midwest, and already have to drop a big load of time and money on travel and lodging, $200 daily lift tickets are just the nail in the coffin. Many of us grew up on a time when families could drive out to Colorado for a ski week, and it generated fond memories. But now a father, mother and 4 kids would have to spend over $4k just to ski 4 days. That doesn’t include the lodging, travel, meals, lessons, etc. It seems like a pretty big untapped market they are overlooking, and our children will have little or no interest to ski out West for the future.
Did you know I am originally from Wisconsin and worked retail, restaurants and ski patrol in Vail and Beaver Creek for over 25 years combined. Your price of 4k is laughable and won't get you and your family in the front door. A week? the Corporate model doesn't include you and want you and your family to buy Epic passes. That's the hook... then you'll come more than a week and in some cases, families come 2-3 times a season. Did you know the average families that visits Vail Resorts spends 10-50k on their ski trips? It's not uncommon they spend more! Imagine this... you get airfare for your family of four, you rent the car, or take a Vail Express van, you stop at Vail's coffee house on I-70 on the way there for a couple $5 coffees and water. Then you're off to the Vail Hotel, then off to dinner at Vail restaurants, then you gotta rent everyone everything at Vails's retail shops, skis, boots, helmet, goggles, hand warmers, snacks, etc. Vail would absolutely prefer you get ski or snowboard instruction and then stop at the lodge for a $18 dollar cheese burger without french fries because those are separate and $15. Then, after a long day it's Apres at the Vail owned slopeside bar and don't forget shopping at Vail's retail... again! Kids need Beaver Creek swag! Then finally, off to dinner at Vail Steakhouse. You know that's gonna cost you. Then, back to your hotel for a good night sleep so you can do it all over again x 5 days? Oh, don't forget to take the Vail Express back to the airport and finally, one more stop at the Vail Coffee shop. I call this "The Big Cash Grab." If you think Vail is about skiing... you're sadly mistaken. Skiing is a commodity that is sold and now traded. This is a corporate formula to squeeze every last nickel and dime from wealthy families and visitors... whether you ski or not. Vail Resorts is a round table of MBAs in Broomfield, CO. They could care less if you like skiing... Do you get it now?
@@jeffspicoli2643 Thanks for the lengthy response. My $4k number was only for lift tickets.
Like I said, Western resorts seem to have simply forsaken the Midwestern market which substantially helped to build the sport to begin with.
I’m well aware of all the extra costs, as I have taken my family from Michigan to places like Solitude, Tahoe, and Big Sky in the past, and I have done several “guys trips” and professional conference trips over the years to Colorado, Utah, Idaho and Canada.
Your first problem is thinking anyone at a vail resort wants mid western families there.
@@peterrabbit3887 Right. Midwesterner’s money isn’t as valuable as dollars from locals. Got it. You’re so smart.
Oof sounds like we got a bitter local in the comments lol
Vail owns and sells the Epic Pass. Their largest competitor is Alterra, which owns and sells the Ikon Pass. Either one is a bargain for anyone who skis a few days at each of several resorts during ski season. But the daily lift ticket rices have gone through the roof over the past couple of years. Last year Dear Valley (Alterra) had a daily lift ticket price of $229, yes, per day! And the adjacent Park City The One (PCMR + The Canyons) was about the same. This is almost double of what it was two or three years earlier.
And for example, at Deer Valley the Senior Citizen season pass is now $1900 if purchased before a certain date in October. Two or three years ago it was $900 plus tax. Yikes!
I blame the Mormons lmao, fuck Utah in general
I get 10 buddy passes a season nice discount on day lift. need to learn how to use the pass and deals.
See Epic Day Pass...no holidays, 4 days, ALL resorts incl Vail, Breck, Telluride & Andermatt....UNDER $100 per day?!!! INCREDIBLE VALUE
@@reigngage no its not. in europe you get 6 days for like 250
Since the focus here is money consider this...
On average, over the passed 8 yrs, I have purchased an Epic "Local" pass for just over $500, early season.
During the late '80's I lived in Summit County Colorado and purchased their local pass for all 4 resorts (excluding Loveland at that time) for $450-485.
I disagree with many things VR does, one thing they do well is deliver an affordable pass.
And for the people complaining about daily lift ticket prices, I totally get that. But if you plan on making it a little bit of a trip you can buy multi-day passes at IKON resorts for less than $500.
Stowe/Vail just started selling $450.00 seasonal PARKING passes with no guarantee of finding a parking spot.
This video was put together incredibly well
Vail = (A+ for accounting / D- for ethics)
Hey quick question--what would the college class name be for the subject of your video? Would it likely be financial management, business mgmt, entrepreneurship, acquisition, business administration, etc?
I think what you meant was an F... for Fail Resorts.
I work at Steven's Pass, I'd say that's fair
Vail Resorts Management Company is a publicly traded company (MTN). A great way for the communities impacted by the management decisions of vail is to acquire shares and voice their grievances at annual Shareholder meetings and initiate change through shareholder voting privileges. Shareholders can decide who and how a company is managed.
This would take a solid undergrad in Finance and couple years of prof experience to read, analyze, catch the trend and write a great report. Maybe a CFA😂😂😂 great video and info! Thanks a lot
super informative !! I loved learning about the economics of Vail Resorts and the details behind their operations. Thanks for making, looking forward to future videos!
As a skier, and having an MBA in finance, this is one of the clearest explanations of the numbers I've seen.
Still, that massive "other" expense category really needs a deeper dive. I'd have to think that most of the acquisition costs and costs of new lifts/terrain expansion has to be capitalized.
It's also interesting that Vail isn't succeeding in hotels and timeshare sales.
Great callout Andrew! One thing we should have mentioned is that Vail Resorts has $2.7 billion in long term debt, which likely includes the majority of the overall cost to acquire new resorts and carry out new capital projects. The "other" expense category only contains the payments that were made this past fiscal year.
Vail has access to a $500 million revolving line of credit and $1.1 billion debt facility. It looks like the company withdrew $335 million from the debt facility to acquire Peak Resorts in 2019, and that the principal on that is not due until 2025. However, the $117 million Seven Springs acquisition in Fiscal 2022 was funded entirely by cash on hand.
@@PeakRankings If Vail is focused on an EBITDA number, does "other" include interest on loans/revolvers/notes, taxes, depreciation, and amortization?
I would have to think these are rather large numbers for Vail, as just the amortization of goodwill on all those acquisitions and depreciation of capital assets has to be huge.
“Rollups” have very poor financial transparency, with countless accounting tricks shrewd executives can play. Ebitda can end up being really misleading. That being said, like others have pointed out, the mountain states huge population growth is probably the biggest business driver and they have found a way to convince these folks to buy season passes.
They increase profits at the expense of the customer experience and by firing seasoned local professionals and treating their staff like garbage. Decisions are made hundreds to thousands of miles from the soak ski resorts in Broomfield, Colorado. That's how vail works and they are ruining the ski industry.
A lot of their corporate actually does work in Vail too
Vail only cares about rich customers, who can afford a $200 a day lift ticket + $40 to park + expensive gas +way overpriced food + equipment rental fees? When I grew up in the 1990's early 2000's you could get $50 lift tickets, gas was cheap, no parking fee, you buy you're own equipment for $500 and the food was alittle overpriced but not terrible. I learned to ski because my dad could afford to take me skiing 3 to 5 times a winter. I make 80k a year but I don't think I'll be able to do the same for my kids, I think eventually there will be a big drop in the number of skiers because alot of young people can't afford to ski enough to get good at it. Vail resorts will have killed the ski industry that will be their legacy. Before COVID I was about to get $1,000 season pass but after COVID season passes shot up to $2,000 or $3,000 which is too much for someone making an average income.
Yep, it’s inevitable that the new skier/rider population will drop because of this.
Corporate behemoths like Vail are ruining the ski industry; there is only so much you can hike prices before it is out of most people's budget. Passes like Ikon and Epic aren't helping, either. They may bring down the average cost to ski/ride, but resorts raise prices (in all business areas) to make up for the lift ticket shortfall from these passes. Ski touring is the way to go, with an occasional trip to a resort.
What are you talking about??? Skiing is the cheapest it’s ever been???
Being from Oklahoma, I went skiing at a resort that Vail owns in Kansas City called Snow Creek. Cool little ski area that's only about four hours from Tulsa, which for Oklahoma is really close for skiing. That trip was two years ago, and I still can't go more than two weeks without Vail Resorts sending me emails trying to entice me to buy an Epic pass. Like all corporations, they only care about how much money they can siphon off of you.
Request for a video comparing lift ticket prices at some notable resorts in Europe, East Asia (mostly Japan if we're being honest), and North America. Europe and Japan can be notoriously expensive in other ways which may even the overall costs out, but the lift ticket prices there are generally lower in the large resorts (with some exceptions). Some of the ticket prices at places like Whistler and Big Sky are absurd. It'd be interesting to know how some of the major resorts in Europe and Japan make money or if they are being subsidized or taking on debt. Here in Japan, resorts from the bubble era are dropping like flies every year it seems.
Noted!
The up swing in revenue won't do them any good if there is no one to run the lift, park the kooks cars, serve/cook food, pour their dam mimosas, rent them gear, or teach ski school. There is no housing left in these mountain towns(Tahoe for sure), and the housing that is available is so expensive, nobody can afford it with a ski resort paycheck . Vail and/or the ppl that r buying all the housing in these ski towns better figure out a housing plan for the ppl that keep these places running. Pretty soon u'll have to teach "Kyle" & "Karen" how to bump chairs, if they want to use the lift🤷
Well at least in vail proper they tried to build new employee housing and got blocked by the town because all the people who stay in their 40 million dollar homes for only like 2-3 weeks a year voted against it. And looking through all the zoning in my area most of the usable land not directly at the bases of the mountains are held by other investment companies. There is a 400 acre stretch of land that has sold between 4 investment companies in the past 15 years and has gone up in price more than 20x in all of those sales. That could be over 500 normal single family houses or an insane amount of condos but instead it will sit empty until land as an investment is banned or some billionaire buys it and builds a mansion on it
94:1 Is still pretty crazy ratio.
Great video, thanks. You deserve more subs, I'll think you'll get there. You definitely have a quality product.
When a company's customers make a year long commitment with their primary purchase from the company and considering that customer surveys don't accurately predict future purchases it is hard to predict the future financial condition of the company. This is only considering the year to year choices customers make about where to ski or snowboard. If we consider peoples choices to continue with ski and snowboard activities or switch to other activities the market and that customer response takes close to a decade it becomes even more difficult to forecast. People entering the sports also take a few years. So looking a just a half decade during which Vail Resorts had rapid expansion does not give a clear picture of how well Vail is actually doing. This is specially when we consider that some of the customer loyalty they are currently experiencing is to the ski areas that they purchased not to Vail Resorts.
Another thing to consider if if and how Vail Resorts increased the number of customers they have. What percentage growth is by taking customer from other ski resort? What percentage of growth is by increasing the total number of skiers and snowboarder in the country? If they are not increasing the total number of skier and snowboarder in the country they will at some point run out of customer to take from other ski areas. Vail Resort does not seem to have ambitious programs to grow the total number of skiers and snowboarders. These programs are short term money losers that have long term benefits. Due to the costs these are things that make CEOs and CFOs look bad.
From about the mid 1990's until about the mid 2010's the ski and snowboard industry focused on growing the industry by focusing on bringing new people into the activities. This was mostly by increasing the focus on beginners and novices. This was one of the factors in the recovery and growth of the industry during that time period. (Increase in snowboarding, reduced cost of season passes, terrain parks and other things were also factors.) This actually bucked a trend that was happening in the similar industry of guided whitewater rafting. During that time period the industry shrunk mostly due shrinking consumer buying power.
My conclusion is that Vail Resorts' focus on the existing high spending customer base is great for them short term. It may be okay for Vail longer term. But it will likely have a negative impact on the ski and snowboard industry as a whole.
My thoughts exactly. By alienating the learners segment… there will be less overall skiers and riders long term.
So glad I discovered this channel. Great videos
Thank you!
I’m in the business and the average 76$ per day of ski is crazy high. Average includes gratuities, children, free entrances and seasonal passes. In the Dolomites the average is 30 euros , or 30$ today , per day of ski.
Dear American skiers, If you want to save money and ski great come in the Dolomites. With flight, accomodation and meals included a week skiing is much cheaper, and much better ( I lived in North America for over a decade ) in Europe.
For those who do not know the Dolomites is the largest ski area in the world with over 450 lifts and 1200 km of groomed slopes.
I know VR uses approx. 15% less mountain employees than is required to operate the mountain from 8:00AM-4:00 PM. Their resorts very rarely open on time after any kind of storm, the way the resorts used to.
Thank you to Vail Resorts for their generous discounts to active duty and retired military and veterans.
Back in the "good" old days, daily tickets were relatively affordable, and season passes very expensive. Had to log 30+ days/season just to break even if you bought a pass. Since resorts were more dependent on daily ticket sales, they (at least in my area) generally maintained a fairly high level of service throughout the season. Few people who actually worked for a living could justify buying a pass, but skiing 10 or 15 days a year was within reach. Now that annual passes are relatively cheap, and daily tickets astronomical, even the most casual riders buy a pass, since the break even point is often only 4 or 5 days. Since the resorts now get much of their revenue before the snow flys, there is ZERO incentive to provide a quality experience as the season starts to wind down. For example, we had a record amount of snow last year, but the local Vail owned operation started shutting down huge sections of the resort by March 1, even though much of the mountain was skiable well into May. As recently as 8-10 years ago, this resort used to brag about their extensive snowmaking system and grooming fleet. All of that is now long gone, along with even mediocre customer service. I've skied for 50+ years, and always thought I'd continue until I physically couldn't anymore. But now, at a healthy age 70, I feel like this might be my last season, at least with an Epic pass.
Thanks, Vail 🙄🙄
After having made the switch from epic to ikon I will say that ikon is the far less evil of the two. Ikon mountains are well staffed, have less lines, and actually deliver on promises in my experience.
Yeah but the vail mountains are way better and give you better experiences.
My big worry is them having no competition and prices shooting out of control! Otherwise I very much appreciate the access to mountains that they sell and accomodate.
VAIL HAS RUINED SKIING IN GENERAL FOR MOST FAMILIES. THEY OWN AND OPERATE 44 RESORTS IN NORTH AMERICA.
VAIL IS THE AMAZON OF SKIING. GREED , GREED, GREED .
A ONE DAY LIFT PASS AT VAIL NOW IS $ 237 USD . THAT IS INSANITY. EVEN BUYING A 6 DAY WEEK PASS THE 1 DAY IS STILL $214 A DAY.
YOU CAN SKI ZERMATT SWITZERLAND FOR 96 EUROES A DAY .
Skiers have ruined skiing. There is too much demand for only a few resorts. Everyone needs to go back to international travel
Okay and season passes are only 550. Still cheap as shit. Ikon is more expensive than epic.
@@zmohan69 $850*
Financial analysis lesson. Nice!
Their salaries are far below industry average. I had an offer there that was laughable for a director level business position. About 30% under industry avg. Good luck to them, I love the resorts.
love this video but please display numbers in graphs so they’re easily digestible at a glance, instead of having to read every number
Thank you for the video, I certainly like hearing the business aspect of skiing. Can you expand this in another video to detail which of the many resorts under Vail is most profitable and is Vail looking at construction projects to get some of the older less profitable hills more attractive?
Great suggestion. It's hard to answer those questions for sure from public data, but there are a few hints that can help tell the story.
Not sure how this ended up in the feed lol! I retired from skiing 7 years ago after Vail took over the season passes and made my local mountain into a parking lot of people. I can still afford the prices but what’s the point when everything is tracked by hour 2 of opening and lines everywhere? No thanks rather spend my time and money doing other activities. Money has always been in the ski industry but 200 dollars for a lift ticket?!?! Eff that
very informative and analytically based thank you keep it up!
Thanks best village review.
Great videos. Thanks.
I applied to be a lifty once as a joke, the application asked minimum pay and I wrote $25/hr. Couldn’t believe they actually called me, the vail lady was willing to do 14-16$. I was very clear that my application minimum pay way not negotiable. Half the mountain was closed at Stevens pass the next year due to staffing crisis.
$25/hr is an absurd ask for a lift assistant, especially if the company is willing to cover your housing/transportation/season ticket (big resorts usually do). What you think you're worth is not always what you get.
@@GuitarGuy650 there was no housing/ transportation included. Their revenue was substantially reduced after the ski patrol/ half the mountains workers left in a strike/ mass quit. I just liked being able to wave a dumb price in veils face as they do to their dumb customers. I now ride baker strictly and have not regretted it in the slightest lol.
@@GuitarGuy650 you missed the joke of this
Wild to remember that Vail first showed up on my radar screen in Third Avenue's Real Estate fund as a real estate operating company... now they lose money on real estate? The only constant is change...
The reason its more fair at ski resort towns is because if i decide that im not being treated fairly and find work elsewhere then they are down a worker and its really hard to find someone in the middle of winter especially because most people move for the seasonal roles. So if you are treating your staff poorly and there's still half the winter season left you're screwed. especially since its your Q3 that is supposed to make so much money everyone forgets about Q4
I'm glad I found this video of yours.
That's why I ski tour.
Nice video👍 I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be curious to hear the same breakdown for Alterra Mountain Company. 🤔🧐
Another powerhouse in the ski industry
Alterra is a privately-owned company, so unfortunately their financial data is not publicly available.
As a vail resort shareholder this was really helpful. No one else talks about the stock
The Stock Market is going to collapse.
I’m heading to Whistler BC for the first time this upcoming winter. My wife wanted to go to more of a resort destination to mix it up, as I always enjoy smaller ski town terrain and vibes (such as big sky). I’m kinda nervous about the Whistler trip.
Once you get out of the valley bottom, terrain opens up massively, people spread out. It'll be a good idea to study the lifts beforehand as there's always alternatives should you arrive at a mid-mountain lift with a long wait (e.g. Emerald Chair). Whistler has a great local vibe if you can get away from the traps... tons of dedicated long time locals, but obviously the amount of visitors and short term "locals" are most prominent.
Whistler was here before vail and will be here long after vail.
@@murf250 Thanks for the tip. I'll be sure to study the map before I head up.
Whistler RULE.
She must like waiting in line 😉. Lots of other resort type activities to do though
Skied small and large plus own a condominium at Creekside Whistler. Overall Whistler is wonderful. I do not eat at restaurants, but at my place. I have heard they are expensive; however, there are good AirBnBs, including mine, that charge reasonable rates. The mountain is big, and if you need equipment rent in Creekside or buy at the reuse-it center. You can take a bus to the resort since parking a car is a waste, if it is rented and it sits where you have to pay. Of course, you want to be able to walk to the lift. You can from both the village and Creekside.
Vail and whistler-blackcomb is a bad mix imo. Just because it is too much terrain that requires too much staff in such a low populated city that most of the terrain is left unaccessible for a majority of the season. They can't manage it or delegate management down well enough, like they can do with keystone and Breck. Even with vail resort being their competitor for visits, and neighbor.
How did they do on same store sales YoY? In other words, are they adding value to the individual resorts or is the profit growth coming from acquisitions? It would also be interesting to understand their acquisition strategy seeing as all the premier western resorts (which is where the big money is) are already taken
It's hard to tell for sure, but given that most of the recently acquired resorts have been small, regional mountains, it's very likely that retail sales increases came from already existing resorts.
FWIW, Vail said retail revenue went up from 2021 due to "fewer COVID-19 related limitations and restrictions on our North American winter operations as compared to the prior year, as well as an increase in demand over the prior year."
Also Vail looks to be expanding in Europe now-they acquired a majority stake in Swiss resort Andermatt-Sedrun this summer.
@@PeakRankings good info but I was referring to YoY comparisons for the same resort, not the retail stores. For example, are they able to realize increased profit contribution from whistler from one year to the next. It’s easy to grow through acquisitions. Much tougher to do with what you’ve already got. It may not be a fair comparison though given the Covid disruptions. It will also be interesting to see what they can do in the Alps. Most ski areas in the Alps operate as near non-profits that are owned by local hoteliers, restaurant owners and shopkeepers with the mountain operations intended to drive traffic into the town. That’s a key reason why European lift tickets are so cheap. One of the few North American resorts with a similar setup is Panorama.
Awesome work!
Park City was once a classic ski town with an amazing vibe. Then Vail properties moved in and now the entire place caters to the super rich. Breaks my heart. F*** Vail.
Have not watched the video yet, but is it from Parking? Just kind of kidding, it is at least $35 per day to park at Vail during skiing season.
just gotta know the places where it's free. A lot of the paid parking is managed by the towns, not actually vail resorts.
@@Michael-fi5rd You are right they are owned by the town, not the resort. I did make that mistake. Public parking is $35 per day in the Town of Vail owned parking garages. This is where most people park when skiing at Vail. I've been skiing there for years and have never parked anywhere else. There used to be free parking at the golf course, but someone told me this past March that it no longer free to park there. Correct me if I am wrong? So where can you park for free in Vail other than at privately owned residences? Keystone, Breck, Sun Valley, Snow Basin, Bachelor and of course my local hill here in Washington are all places I ski that have free parking (so far).
@@rj521 Donovan park, along the frontage road, along the road by safeway opposite the bus stop are a few places
@@Michael-fi5rd Thanks for the info. I have a cousin in Breck and Denver friends who have a condo in nearby Silverthorne. We mostly ski Vail when I am there. I've been skiing Breck and Vail since the early seventies.
Great video!
Read their 10K they want to move towards advanced revenue sales to hold your money just like a bank and make money of your money, not off selling you a quality skiing experience
Vail is far from perfect, no doubt. But I ski 3 to 4 times as many days as I used to before I used the epic pass. For me, that’s a big win!
Would be interested in seeing similar info for iKon/altera, and maybe a comparison of their financial stradgey and operations
Unfortunately Alterra is a private company, so won't have access to that info any time soon 😭
@@PeakRankings didn't know that!
Comment on employee dissatisfaction. That's a whole episode or series.
Can you say more about them not being profitable with real estate? I didn't understand what you meant
I was hoping that you would talk a little bit about their costs toward workers and them outsourcing their Customer Service to the Philippines (evident by my recent 3 phone calls to them).
Also. Their website allows multiple purchases of the SAME season pass for the SAME season. What is that about? Will I get my money back?
If you understand the ski industry, this is pretty basic. Nice work on gathering the data.
Great video! I'm so glad I did my MBA before I watched it. Lol!
Vail is actively ruining their resorts in the North East by ripping people off at Stowe and completely ignoring New Hampshire and letting those mountains fall into disarray.
excuse me, will the test be multiple choice, short answer or essay? 😉 awesome video. i really learned a lot. btw.... the 12:24 mark is some insanely gnarly terrain, where is it? so i don't accidentally find myself going down that.
That clip is the E-Chair lift line at Breckenridge!
It looks a lot like The Burn on Peak 10 at Breck
The Midwest market is being addressed by Vail via its acquisition of Midwestern ski areas. They're trying to build some brand loyalty.
Midwest market = 600 feet of vertical on a hill in Wisconsin.
Screw Vail. There are plenty of smaller operated mountains who treat you better and are much cheaper. Do your research and go enjoy better mountains.
Cheaper than epic? There’s no where that cheap lol, keystone passes are only $335? Can’t get cheaper than that?
Good Summary of the financial statement comes out every QTR. 60 million visits and vail had 17.3. Not a monopoly.
I can see why they couldn't afford to continue the locals pass when they took over Falls and Hotham. It must have cost them billions.
I’ve heard the employee housing at our resort is only $350 or so a month. That’s dirt cheap.
At first when Vailk came to Park City, I didn't think it would be that bad. As the years have gone by it's really sad what they have done to the community of Utah and how things have changed for the worse in many ways. The fundamental ticket is so outrageously priced that it discourages people who built the ski industry in Utah and forces other resorts to compete at the same level. Skiing is still good, but now most everyone has a sour taste in their mouth and it feels like a cheap experience
Where did you get the stats?
Vail's financials are publicly available. This video is based off their full-year 2022 P&L and Balance Sheet data.
australia here, vail bought falls crek
You should make a channel on investing (stocks).
No wonder Vail makes money, it's the MacDonalds of skiing. Wherever you go its the same . Relatively flat terrain, lots of slope side amenities and easy access. If it's want the skiing public wants it's what they gets at Vail resorts. Disneyland in the Mountains!!
The local tahoe pass which includes heavenly and northstar is around $550. Meanwhile, a season pass at a small mountain in Truckee like Boreal, which is about half the size of both resort costs $500. Why would i not go for the EPIC pass? especially since i can even go to other resorts if I want to go on a trip ..
For the value pass its only $450.
@@robertberin4872 value pass does not include utah resorts
AIR B&B's ruined Colorado mountain towns not Vail
0:15 where is he? What mountain/trail is that? It looks epic
Those are the Lake Chutes at Breckenridge!
Do you know which level of skiers they get most of their revenue from????
Industry trends suggest that just over half of destination resort visitors are intermediate-level, with beginners and experts making up a quarter each. Would imagine the revenue distributions are similar; beginners will probably spend more on lessons but ski fewer days on a typical trip (or qualify for discounted tickets due to age).
The analysis takes the typical short term view. The focus on passes has provided a short term revenue boost is also behind the long term decline of the sport. The greed exhibited by day pass costs, which new skiers and families use, makes the cost prohibitive for new people to enter the sport. Passes are find for people who live close to the resorts and have a reasonable expectation of getting the value out of it. For those who live even a couple hundred miles a way they make less sense. Everyone I know who purchased the passes found they didn't use them enough. The decline in skiing shows a classic price-elasticity response. The solution isn't complex, stop punitive pricing on day passes. If your average cost/day is $75 then the day pass should be no more than 50% above that. The problem is that when you hire MBAs you get a perspective that extends about 3 months out.
Do more Vs!
Union strong 💪
After such an aggressive acquisition strategy over many years, how much debt does Vail Resorts hold?
They hold $2.7 billion in debt, the overwhelming majority of which is not due for more than 12 months.
To the folks at Peak Rankings this is an EXCELLENT summary of VR's Financial Condition, We were homeowners in Beaver Creek in the early 2,000's so we've watched with interest as VR has expended, improved their Resorts, experimented with various Access products (passes etc) and tinkered with the pricing offered to less profitable Day Skiers vs highly profitable Destination Skiers. (almost always to the great annoyance of local Day Skiers).
Here are two things I found surprising in your findings:
1) That they don't make more money on Real Estate. I mean, that's their business, right? They own Mountains and Condos and Retail and Restaurants. Maybe they are in a "buy and hold" mode right now, but I thought that would generate more income.
2) That they did so well through the Pandemic. What other travel / tourist / active vacation / family activity made ANY money during the Pandemic? (please comment if you can think of any). If EVERYBODY else lost money and VR broke even or even made a little money, that is the mark of a Strong Management Team who had done some thoughtful pre-planning. Nice work.
I'm not here to Promote Vail Associates - they don't mean anything to me. But what I will promote is Snow Skiing / Boarding as an OUTSTANDING Family activity that can serve as the Cold Weather Cornerstone of many, many great Family outings that will help bond your family together. No, it's not cheap. But what is? Disney? (please) Siting on a beach? (boring) Cruise Ship (get more COVID?) Skiing is something everyone can approach on their own level of competence, something you can do on a day trip basis in many part of this Country, and for those special Family Vacations, nothing beats a ski trip at a great Destination Resort.
We all want nice places to go on Vacation and we all want good value. Guess what? Nobody's going to do that for you for free! Skiing is a massively capital intensive "product" (who else has to buy a mountain?) that has the variable risk component of weather (in a warming world)... so it's no gimme for Ski Area Owners. I think you said... "They know what they're doing, and they do it well". I would agree. Let's give Vail Resorts credit-where-credit-is-due and encourage them to continue to invest in their Resorts, improve pay and working conditions for their Workforce, and be good stewards of the Land. They take care of the Resorts, we'll enjoy the Product!
Note to those who have complaints... take out a piece of paper, go to the Post Office and buy a $,40 cent stamp, and write the CEO a letter. YOU MIGHT BE AMAZED at the response you'll get! Lots of people bitch on Social Media but not that many people write old fashioned letters, so they tend to carry outsized weight in the minds of the Company leaders. (Like 100:1)
How about cost per lift ride? With those lines its probably $100 per ride
Do employees count in the daily visitor price?
They do not.
I won't get an epic pass. I choose independent resorts. If I ever did have to choose one of the big multi-passes, I would go Ikon first.
Alterra (Ikon) is as bad.
@@lisayist I've never experienced crazy lift lines like Vail gets at any Ikon resort. Ikon passes are about $200-$300 more, and you get less crowds for the price.
@@andrewdiamond2697 have you not been to copper mountain? Lines are worse than Breck most days…
@@nylla6161 lol not sure you've been to copper mountain. The longest wait I've seen is 20 minutes on holidays, it's usually a 5 minute wait. I rode there for at least 40 days last season
@@herbertthepervert4260 people legit wait an 10+ minutes on I-70 just to exit, then you have to park far away and take a shuttle just to get to a base lift. Sounds just as bad as Breck to me. Also 5 minute wait is rough, if it’s not ride on or maybe one person in front, than it’s busy. Even Breck lines aren’t 5 minutes on non peak days unless you’re riding the base chair all day for some reason…
Pump and Dump, baby:
See the documentary, Resorting to Madness
basically Vail resorts is just John Majors from Out Cold
Unpopular opinion, save for a few blunders Vail treats their employees better than any other ski company. I work for Vail. Our Benefits are better, our pay is WAY better and, they give their department heads a massive budget to improve their equipment.
We have the highest minimum wage ($20/$21) in the nation.
Vail Resorts gave itself a major black eye in the State of New Hampshire based on what happened at the resorts they managed in the 2021/2022 season. The bad old days of hour and a half lift lines and the like at Sunapee. Selling a ton of season passes and then screwing people who show up with an insanely busy resort would not seem viable as a long term business plan.
The Republican Governor of NH, Chris Sununu even complained about how Vail was managing Sunapee.
Word !
2.5 BILLION Dollars? I didn't even know that so many people go skiing in the US. I thought it's the fringe sport of fringe sports! ;-) There must be Millions of people buing tickets each year!
2.1 million season passes sold last year, which doesn't include all the single day tickets people buy on the spot...
The biggest thing you missed in the video was the cost to build and maintain chair lifts.
Vail sucks
Board members with golden parachutes, making millions during a pandemic should tell you all you need to know about this company.
Bankers having a giggle on those compensation numbers
💀
they should name a few runs PRE EXISTING CONDITION .
Real skiers support their local mountain & refuse to ski at a Vail resort! Vail pulls “the wool” over your eye to suck you in and to suck your money! All while most of their resorts they acquire go to shit! Big corporations like Vail is what’s wrong with America!
Agree
I really hope they don't expand more here in Switzerland/Europe generaly. I don't really mind that they aquired Andermatt-Sedrun, it's not the best resort and I've only been there like twice but I'd be extremely mad if they aquired some of the good ski resorts and 'americanice' them, thus turning them to s**t. I mean what the heck even is mountain safety?
Vail isn’t the best company, but they have great pass prices and really great mountains
Next time cover the upcoming class action lawsuit due to housing issues.
Or how they completely dismantled their entire HR department and went to an automated system.
good review, but overlay decks over shaky video made it unwatchable.