MaxPax's new Protoss strategy vs Serral! StarCraft 2 (Best-of-5)
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- Опубликовано: 21 окт 2024
- StarCraft 2 Tournament 2023 - $40,000 Tournament Master's Coliseum 6 - The rank 1 StarCraft 2 player (Serral) takes on the final Protoss (MaxPax) in this exhausting, dramatic Zerg vs Protoss series!
StarCraft 2 Legacy of the Void - Master's Coliseum 6 2023 Main Event - Serral (Zerg) vs MaxPax (Protoss) - Best of 5
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That's enough ladder for today
Best comment 😂
😂
Lol
This has become my daily dose of starcraft. Keep them coming
Serral using Abathur's voice over fits him perfectly
sounds the most like the OG overmind :D i use it too for zerg
abduct and neural parasite don't both need to be in this game. They serve the same purpose and the "counterplay" to either of them is abysmal. 10 great feedbacks only buys time. A handful of neurals is game ending, and a handful of abducts is -25 supply.
itd be more impressive if protos army was actually competitive with terran or zerg late game.
Abduct kinda ruins Protoss.
Imagine if the Serral army disappeared, he could just have pressed some keys and he would have rebuilt it in seconds… now Imagine that the toss army somehow disappeared. Not only they are not equal in power but zerg can also replace it practically instantly
Winter... you are just great... nothing more to say... my favorite caster for my favorite strategy-game. Thanks for all the great work!!!
Damn Serral is so good at lategame zerg. Its insane. Its so hard controlling infestors, corruptors, vipers, and any other unit at the same time.
1:00:54 hahaha i love when winter blacks out haha
Yeah, much harder than tempests, archons, templars, voidrays, mothership and carriers and the same time.
It pretty much never looks like Protoss has any chances against Serral.
Serral just makes the right decisions, goes for the right units at the right times in the right amounts while taking the right fights, and has the control to use the late game spellcasters and avoid the typical mistakes, like committing too hard to roach/ravager when it's not good for the situation, not getting units out in time vs an all in, or never forcing the issue vs Skytoss and slowly getting chipped away by tempests. It feels like all of the agency in the match up is on the Zerg side, and it's on them to make mistakes that the Protoss player can exploit to get a win.
He sticks to lings vs the blink stalker pressure (No roach ravager until it's dealt with), uses Neural/PB after forcing the issue with fungal/abduct vs Skytoss, makes a few ultras in the late game for split pressure and to distract archons, etc...
Obviously im mostly kidding when i say this but hes almost so good its bad for the game. If you were just an average starcraft viewer watching this game. You would think clearly zerg is absolutely unstoppable. Protoss just cant beat zerg in the late game. Its a serious problem when literally 1 player maybe 2. Can control zerg like that. Dark on a fantastic day can get really fucking close to this. But serral just doesnt seem human sometimes.
@@Intensi0ns Yeah, what's really sort of needed is for Zerg's power to come down, but usability to go up, particularly for infestors, which absolutely dominate the late game when properly controlled, and make practically everything the opponent can make look like a joke.
Neural on a 2 supply unit is just crippling for units that cost more than 2 supply when infestors are made in numbers, and since most late game tech units are 4-6 supply, that's a big problem; Zerg can have twice as many infestors as the Protoss has voidrays/archons/immortals/etc, or the same number and fill in the remaining supply with whatever is useful.
Vipers have sort of a similar problem, though more because not many are needed for them to get incredible value with abduct and Parasitic bomb. PB is just too powerful vs air due to its absurdly large radius and high guaranteed damage. it's just impractical to split out of for how much damage it deals, especially when combined with fungal, (It's even worse for Vikings than for skytoss as well, which puts Terran in a bind vs Brood Lords, since they're forced to respond with ground units).
Vipers/Infestors are also what force Terran into mass ghosts in the late game, since they counter everything else so effectively if ghosts aren't around... Meanwhile, Ghosts also beat everything Zerg can make on equal supply, and infestors are the only thing that can sort of deal with that... So it sort of goes both ways. Both Ghosts and Infestors are just way too supply efficient with good control.
@@Matt-ln7lbLanding Vikings cancels pb, Viking range and speed allows them to kite air pretty effectively.
Tempest are the toss equivalent, but cost way more and are too slow to lead with, you need Archon\storm under them, something, it's better to keep them back, snipe high value units like infestors.
As for mineral lines, isn't that what Oracles are supposed to defend? Stasis wards and cannon? What's the point of having it if you don't use it?
DT can go through a mineral line almost as fast, and can kill buildings, storm drops kill mineral line just as fast as fung.
Serral is really pushing the Zerg to the line, almost no room for improvement, in terms of mechanics, and doing it consistently. Watch his drone count compared to any other Zerg player.
I don't think any Protoss players are consistently pushing that race to it's limits in similar fashion.
Because when you make the right decisions against protoss, they have 0 effective counterplay. Zerg units are faster, tougher, and cheaper than what they counter and then usually are also very competent into anything else the Toss player will have on the ground. Prime example is Broodlords vs Carriers. Broodlords hit harder, are cost 50 min cheaper, and cost 0 resources to attack. Meanwhile, carriers cost 350/250, and then 60 further to get to max interceptors.
Interceptors seem to be pretty casually easy to destroy themselves, but even if they arent, when the carrier dies, they die. So with the viper drags one or two carriers whilst hiding in the middle of the blob of corruptors, that carrier dies immediately, while the rest of the skytoss flap their hands doing precisely nothing.
Any skytoss comp that could respond to the corruptors is useless for anything else..
@@SD-jf7nb On the first bit about vikings...
Landing just leaves the PB in the air, and it takes time, since Vikings need an unobstructed landing area (There are often other units or terrain under them). They don't all just drop to the ground.
Landing also renders them vulnerable to the brood lords they're made to counter and any other ground units the Zerg is making, as well as lock them in place during the transformation, which makes them an easy target for fungal. If they get hit by fungal, they're also slowed, making it take even longer to land/split, and Fungal + PB deal 150 damage combined, while Vikings have only 135hp. And vikings aren't particularly fast for an air unit to begin, so even without fungal, PB tends to deal a lot of damage.
It's just not a practical response.
There is good reason that Vikings see 0 use in late game TvZ at the pro level where the Terran actually wins (On the rare occasion they do get made, the entire ball of vikings usually dies to a single PB/fungal combo).
As far as Serral pushing the limits more than Toss players. It's hard to say, but there should at least be the appearance that Protoss could win if they didn't make certain mistakes, and that's currently missing entirely, whereas even when a lesser Zerg loses to Protoss, where/how they went wrong is usually obvious from an observer perspective.
(Execution is hard. I don't mean to say that those mistakes would be easy to avoid. The overall win rate in the MU below the GM level is currently Protoss favored for a reason: more proactive play is easier to execute properly, and Zerg is best when its reactive. Older more proactive styles, like roach/f2a-move and zergling all ins that were effective in PvZ historically lost a lot of their edge with the addition of battery overcharge).
The rest isn't really worth responding to.
Late game zerg has so many options, it just makes Protoss look sad. Plus fungal and parasite together decimate any and all Protoss air army in seconds.
And Terran
yeah, it's not really fun watching zerg have all these options that Protoss has to play around.
I reckon if they increased feedback range to 12, that might help.
Infestors are way too OP as a spellcaster
throw in the viper and its just complete bullshit.
@@GameFuMaster If feedback simply did the damage it used to, that would be better. Psionic storm was nerfed on release, feedback was nerfed when Devs realised it actually did something, Mind Control was gifted to the Zerg, ...
The genius behind the max pax build is not just the proxy gate, its going pylon->pylon->gate
There really just isnt a counterplay to fungal, abduct, or neural. They come out so quickly and the only possible way to prevent is feedback which comes from one of the squishiest and expensive protoss units
There really isn't a counterplay to revelation. It has such a range. They just keep tabs on your army at all times.
The only thing protoss has problems with in lategame is zergling+ultra runbys. And even that has been defended somewhat well by maxpax. Serral is just by far the best sc 2 player (maybe apart from maru).
The biggest problem with the High Templar is how slow and immobile it is compared to Vipers. Slower and ground based vs. faster and flying. There's no way you are going to always position the High Templar to feedback the Vipers before they can get their spells off.
Even Infestors are faster and can burrow which makes spotting them out harder.
Not saying we should make a flying version of High Templar or anything because that would be busted in PvT, but the Zerg is definitely advantaged in the late game ZvP spell caster battles.
@@StpMakinMeChangMyNam do you watch PvT sometimes? If the Protoss pays any attention, the only problem they have is that feedback is a targeted spell so it can be tricky to target vipers instead of overseers or even see the vipers in a flock of corruptors. Other than that, if the protoss is not sleeping on the job, they'll do plenty fine vs vipers, specifically with oracles keeping tabs on them.
@@asdfasdf-mn8iu Ok bud.
@@StpMakinMeChangMyNamit's nice to see people actually admitting the other person is correct instead of themselves for once :) good on you!
The analogy to different painting styles was amazing and accurate! Love this winter
I know Serral is Op, but these matches weren’t close, and Maxpax is the top Protoss player right now. No hope for Protoss, its just sad to watch. wuhu u_u
Serial is on military service in 2024 so its a chance for Protoss and Terran players to rule...until Serral comes back.
@@AdmiralBison Fortunately for Maxpax, he is not on LAN but Serral still played in Dallas and won 4-0 against Maru again... going to the military did not slow him down one bit.
I secretly thought Maxpax was Serral playing protoss. It appears I'm mistaken 😔. Thanks Winter for making my day a little bit better ❤
I was hoping to see tunneling claws that last map. I know he's been using it more often against Terran of late and it's fun to watch. I want to see him use it just as a way of getting some energy free heals though instead of being sneaky. Maybe even some burrow micro.
That was a dismantling. Serral OP. Those banes in the last 2 games felt like HotS or some earlier time when Protosses actually made sentries for that stuff!!
"As one sided as a moebius strip."
This guy..
This patch better change the Protoss. The Zerg are pro bowl level units. I get Serral is good but a 90% win rate against protoss really means zerg is overpowered and not that Serral is that good. Once late game hits, Serral can take a nap.
If a balance council actually balanced the game, AB wouldn't ave let it happen.
1:02:06 is that a coincident or did Serral just split 2 set of banelings to cut off probes escape route?
37:22 HAHAHAHAHHAA. 1:01:02 HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA. I'm sorry I blacked out for a second, that always chuckles me up.
Watching a zerg play protoss is like watching a grown man fight a baby. They have the best units its unbelievable to watch sometimes.
casual switch to 2 hard counters to the 1 current build Protoss is using. Hard counter the entire Airtoss army with 2 zerg units, maybe 3. And with less supply invested in it, freeing up the rest of the supply to casually throw 3-4 Ultralisks AND a zergling swarm where the 1 Skytoss army cant be.
47:44 "We meet in glorious OH MY GOD" bro you had me rolling on that one 😂 fucking love your videos
I'm kinda ok playing infestors, I'm kinda ok playing vipers, whenever I try both of them I crash and burn without casting anything... respect to Serral for making it look simple.
Serral plays zerg like it’s a war movie. The last push in game 3 was literally lore accurate zerg.
Protoss needs more options late game . More spell casters , a dark archon and regular archon should have some spells , maybe an artillery unit as well . The templars should be more powerful …
"WE MUST BE VIGILANT" oKAY Brenda! Gosh... why are you so intense??
Zerg spell-casters are ridiculous.
I see Zerg v Protoss, I just clicked to confirm the Zerg Icon at the end and read the comments confirming that Nero decimated Protoss with no counterplay. I will be on my way now.
Still feel cheated from yesterday when the graphic said Bo5 and it ended in 2 games
Fungal remain op as ever. 0 skill ability that instantly changes the tide of ant battle. And the choke point design of the maps makes fungul op AF.
For some reason zerg units are incredibly powerful and versatile, terran have a unit that is strong against every single zerg unit and protoss are the third race in this video game.
@WinterStarcraft I just noticed larva killed is not showing in the killed units tab, MaxPax killed one with first oracle.
Poor protos has to deal with worse late game less spell casters and no early game advantage or turtle advantage
@wischmopps293 Well, technically it does, but less skilled players make a lot more mistakes and throw units away with bad attacks. It's pretty easy to make the wrong units at the wrong times or over-drone in the face of an all-in as Zerg, and microing the spellcasters is a bit difficult, moreso than for the other races, because of how their macro works and their spellcasters not having anything to stop them from just running into the enemy army when you f2a-move.
Most less skilled Zerg players tend to spam roach/ravager in the match up while sticking on lair tech, and if it doesn't kill the Protoss, they often lose because they're way too late to transition, have thrown away thousands of resources inefficiently with bad attacks, and are on a composition that doesn't scale well. What really sets Serral apart is just that he doesn't make the wrong units at the wrong times or engage in unnecessary/bad fights; he recognizes that the Zerg late game is stronger and proactively gets the tech to deal with whatever Protoss could throw out, without actually using any tech until it's needed.
Look at game 3 for example: He gets the roach tech, roach speed and a baneling nest + speed, and double expands to the 4th/5th instead of committing to just one of the bases (Even if 1 dies to pressure, he would be able to save the drones and maintain mining at the other + gets more production. He also adds a couple of macro hatches a bit later), but doesn't make any army except lings until the initial stalker pressure is dealt with. He waits to identify what the Protoss is doing with his first batches of safety lings, then responds accordingly with more lings upon seeing more stalkers being added, and crushes the attack.
(Neural seriously needs some looking at... Having it on a 2 supply unit is just way too brutal for any composition relying on higher supply cost units in the late game. Infestors should really be at minimum 3 supply to justify the spell, but they might need some other buff to make them more usable for less skilled players to compensate a bit... 3 supply with no changes would likely be fine as is, as long as the same change was made to ghosts to prevent it from being a huge problem in TvZ, since both units sort of force the opponent to mass the other in the late game, since no other unit is actually an effective counter to either as things currently stand).
@wischmopps293 people with 6000+ mmr play with the same units you do. because i cant isnt a good enough reason to make a race so much weaker than the others.
@24:10 needs upgrade Void Array where they line up arched instead of getting stacked
@23:40 actually
"Watching Serral is like watching a flow chart play StarCraft." 😂
@21:03 "the Mothership itself will survive, but almost nothing else!" @21:07 *Mothership dies*
Id love to see a pro tournament where the players have to switch hands for mouse and keyboard. Would make for some fun games I bet lol
Serral always looks like hes playing with his food its crazy
Spores should be able to shoot banes underground, and have them pop up in the opponent's mineral line. It wouldn't really be overpowered.
boro your casting is amazing keep it up with silly yet intelligent humor
With that intro to the vid I just had to like❤❤
In the late-ish game of the 1st game, 3 properly situated observers would have locked things up early for Maxpax
I think Winter has the best reminder to like on all youtube
those potatoes aren't the only things about to be baked
I'm just waiting for a THREE HOUR Best of Five, now.
Lol it unreal
Shit; caught, one hearty chuckle coming up: 41:22
Mothership is the most expensive unit in the game, but Carrier costs 10 more minerals including interceptors.
Love your content winter ❤
same
This was a great series!
There is nothing that defeats Z dragged out to late game vs P, they have to throw. P can't make decisions that force poor enagagements from Z while Z has nothing but good options. Seen a million static D forest games where Z will sit pretty getting easy but drawn out wins, been this way since WOL. Broodfestor was unstoppable, Swarmhosts wrecked HotS and Vipers are practically the everything spell caster, blinding cloud, abduct and parasitic bomb would be good value on one caster each...
Game 1: Winters mind "Okey, 2 min of metacommentary and we are done, is Maxpax anyways." Winter 8 min later wondering what to talk about and when did ShowTime steal the account of Maxpax.
templar should be able to regenerate their power off of a shield battery. They should also be faster. It might make Protoss a little more competitive. As of now this is a skip.
Get out of here you bronze hero
Lol lol. This is funny.
Where Kerrigan at to snipe
Lol you don't see any issues with essentially infinite power in the late game? Just perma storms?
@@angelcolon4306 let me guess you think storm is stronger than emp and fungal?
The ultras are ruining the air fight for maxpax. At 36:20 it's hard to stutter step his units because of the attack priority to ultras which does nothing because of armor
Does this prove that Zerg is overpowered? I'm thinking that hatcheries should cost a little bit more or something.
Those spore forest are still a problem in late TVP, to so cheap and buy lots of time... Tectonic destabilizer should be even more effective!
thank you !!
27:00 when zerg late game stalemate;
cant zerg just spam hatcheries and make mass larva, then suicide attack the protoss units to then spend all the larva and immediately max out and attack again to overwhelm the remaining few protoss things and win?
is there some new units? i cant remember seeing some of them in the game before?
Serral is a robot, man.
Why do pros still build Zealots? I don't get it.
The only use I ever see for them is to block a hole in a wall off or late game as a group sacrifice to wipe out a drone line.
Zealots are super annoying to deal with, One or Two with your army helps keep tabs, but they also shred queens, tear mech up, and generally require an overresponse to clean up.
I used to get a couple of prisms, and leapfrog, getting a few Zealot's each on as many bases at once as I could, lol.
Why the "balance" team at Blizzard still keeps the -400/-400 in the game is beyond me. Also what the hell is the point of nukes?
Well I guess Zerg needs another spell caster with 3 or 4 synergistic abilities before they can even start to think about the other races...
Maxpax outplayed Serral 70% of that first game. If he had gone for the throat, instead of playing the long game and playing conservative, was probably a better choice. But his overall tenacity, and the learning opportunity in of his most excellent play against Serral I've maybe ever seen, was totally worth it. Being able to win that 1st game in the long game, is when he makes it to best in the world territory. I think Maxpax can play it. He was there, just doesn't have the experience to be aggressive when he should have.
I can't say I've ever seen Maxpax picked apart so completely by another player in recent years, he just couldn't find any real openings to slip in his typical zealot run-by's or get any meaningful damage done to actually build up momentum in any of the fights outside the first game.
Max packs his bags
He had the cash, but not the gas. 60 zealots at the first major conflict, could have done it. Draw Serral at home and give more time to establish a 6th at the conflicted moment in the late-middle.
As well as severely diminish Serral's resupply capacity.
Deberian nefear al luker su rango en -1 y hacer un buff unidad protoss Tempes con una mejora que tenga daño pequeño pero en area. Debido a que Zerg vs Protoss, el protoss debe jugar con sus unidades aereas separadas por la combianacion Viper+ Infestor, pero ellos juegan libres y pueden juntar sus unidades sin problemas, sin contar que llevan Overlog para mitigar el daño ya que aveces lo ocupan como escudos aereos, si el Tempes haria daño al grupo de unidades el zerg no jugaria tan tranquilo, solo con las tormentas del alto trmplario es insuficiemte.
Mass void rays + Serial = CLICK
I want to see thermal challenge the progamers here
Protoss really needs better spells in the lategame. Storms are really not that great
I don't understand how Vipers and Infestors together is not considered OP against Protoss
Because Protoss are only in the game because that Bug Nonce Metzen couldn't think of a way to write them out of the game entirely before release. They were never supposed to win, or even be played.
Protoss: “What army comp is a hard counter to Lings, Banes, and Roaches? Obviously, Archons, Storm, Immortals!”
Zerg: “Lol…”
yeah shame it hard counters units that move like 3 times quicker... so it counters sht
Streets ahead
We are actually reaching 1107 likes. 🎉🎉
31:00
Serral: I'm done playing with my food
Another protoss L? Thats SC2 baby
Why did MaxPax retreat at 7:50?
There were lurkers he couldn't deal with them very efficiently, and Serral was building up enough units to crush his army + he had no prism and his units were getting low on shields/energy. If he commits there, he might kill the base, but his entire army probably dies for it, which isn't worth it. Better to back off and get into tech that can deal with the lurkers.
Terran and Zerg too op. Love my Toss.
"serral should switch mouse and keyboard hands to stop smurfing in pro tourneys" LUL!
Serral surgical in these late game matches. Love it!!
Banelings are op. Gotta go ht with storm, archons, sentries and tempest and have ultra instinct
the SC school! 💥 #peru 🇵🇪
Yes! Love the Serral Matches
NOICE glhf fam
Infestors are way to op
Oh wow, first time I’ve been one of the first ten people to watch! Always a pleasure to enjoy your casting!
I was waiting for this! Time to see the action!
Broodlord infestor *yawn* Zerg is joke we get it blizzard.
Dude, max pax is straight up not having a good week on the finals.
holy broccoli
And this is why brood lords are being nerfed.
Disgusting good zerg!
Clap clap clap
carrier/tempest is loosing late game to protoss...
everything is loosing late game for protoss. Doesnt matter if its Terran or Zerg. Havent seen a late game yet, from any protoss player, into any other race, where late-game didnt end up being the inevitable grinddown of the protoss.
If protoss cant manage an early game advantage because you screwed your macro, or they pulled some unexpected cheese, they dont usually win. Only the best protoss players have been exceptions to this rule, and only when they arent playing top tier zerg or terran.
Flash is the greatest SC2 player ever my man 😊
Man can protoss get a game? Absolutely depressing
Thanks, your vids r god's work
Glad that some1 so op such as Serral exists, gives you the real comprasion weights
Infestors aren’t exactly fair lets be honest ffs
All the races are heavily dependent on spellcasters, and Zerg are arguably the worst, imo: infestors are slow, clumsy - too much ground and it can't get into range, not enough support units it just dies, very little dps on anything not light.
Storm does bonus to bio, Z is 100% bio, but I've killed mass Voids and Mass Thors with nothing but storm.
HT are also slow and derpish, although they have water balloons, but smaller, harder to see, and generally hard to target, difficult to see and target observers make detection difficult, changelings can be effectively screened, burrowed infestors detected (Terrans either make no Ravens or nothing but, and never seem to randomly scan their own army, for whatever reason), you almost never see a neural psi storm.
Neural has been accused below as being op against expensive lategame capital unit, as they were designed to do: literally the only thing that can counter these units - if they are in the right place at the right time.
It was lategame necessary defense in WoL, neural the Two Thors at the top of the ramp, to deny highground vision, while you try to muster enough roach hydra to defend the 16 behind them.
I used to pen a half dozen on my main with Queens on hold position (that F2 thing), so that when a dozen BC blink into my main, I can neural half to Yamato the other half, then focus as many down before another round of neurals, randon Queen\spore, to mop up, maybe Corruptors can get back, or you can spam some hydra or Corruptor.
Damn right, otherwise I have to restart tech from the stone age, save TJ to gtfo.
Anyway, Zerg spellcasters are what keep T@P deathballs from a-mov\stutterstep all tf over you.
Serral making watching boring because we already know who is going to win
❤ u Winter
Mmm. I'm not so much a fan of PvZ lategame I think. The matchup is very tedious to watch, the balance of the endgame engagements is peculiar; Protoss has much more raw power, I suppose in a straight fight, but the zerg is equipped with overwhelming situational firepower to counter it, with the corruptors and spellcasters. The win condition is positioning... and in a match where both players are positioned to deflect attacks the entire time, it's kind of, boring, actually. Especially when the finishing blow is a testing attack, much like has been happening the whole time anyway, that isn't properly guarded for once, and it just ends. Odd.