Several of you have pointed out that perhaps the "octaves" I say Pires plays could actually be an acoustic trick of the recording or a very specific color change. Listening to it a few more times, I'm not so sure - what do you think?
To me it sounds like a similar pitch throughout with very distinct phrasing of 2 note groups and with so much attack you can really hear the hammers and perhaps harmonics too.
I'm not hearing that at all. And I was listening through my electrostatic speaker-based hi fi system. Am I going deaf? Speaking of which, we should all be grateful to Beethoven for enduring a life so full of tragedy so we all can enjoy some of the most sublime music ever created. Mr. O'Connor's comment about evoking a time when life could have been better reminded me of that.
I slowed it down to 25% which helped me. I do hear a octave above echo, but this only starts about 1/3- 1/2 thru the 32nd notes, and then this quits for the last couple of them. I'm not sure these are played notes, but more like a weird acoustic echo.
8:20 I don't hear that "octave" above. I just hear very subtle repetition from within the key. That's what I call a "saline" character in a piano ("zilt" in Dutch), which has that "silvery" quality on certain repetitions especially with some very specific damper distances. That said, I'd also call Volodos triplet a regular 8th note triplet. It's clearly nowhere near twice as fast, it's just marginally more more flowing in time.
Ben Laude cameo @ 3:21 lol. (It's hard not to miss him--he's like the Jesse Enkamp of piano, with something magical about his personality--but regardless, I enjoyed this video.) 3:58 Is that Alfred Cortot peeking out? LOL. [Edit: Watched the rest. Yup, Cortot.]
@@epicaunleashed8764 Ben Laude has his own separate channel now on RUclips (it's fun). I hear he may release a video on ToneBase in the coming weeks, however. I don't know the reasons for the general change except that it was by mutual agreement.
As a listener, I love obsessing over tiny details in the piano litterature. It's always nice to compare, to analyse, to ponder the mysteries of that big universe. Yet sometimes I wonder whether the great (traveling, touring, famous) international concert pianists even have time for this kind of thing. 🙃 By the way I'm reading Leif Ove's book "At work" at the moment. A fascinating, concise and super-pragmatic perspective on pianism.
Thanks for your thoughts! You make a good point -- I know from my own experience that I only really had time to think about this in so much depth once I was no longer actively working on the piece.
"the last 3 piano sonatas of beethoven, written just a few years before his death are full of profound that one could obsessive about for lifetimes" screw no 28 and 29 I guess 💀💀💀💀
So, with Ben Laude gone, will there be more exclusive masterclass, interviews etc. videos coming up with renowned pianists on tonebase (premium) in the future?
Thanks for your considerations and for making the effort to listen to so many recordings! I‘m interested in the topic of comparing interpretations and their relation to musical problems, and therefore welcome endeavours of this kind. However, as much as I appreciate a lot of the content on this channel, in this case I must say that I have some difficulty to understand your criteria for the choice of recordings. No Edwin Fischer, Arrau, Backhaus, Kempff‘s two later complete cycles of Beethoven Sonatas, Gieseking, Serkin, Friedrich Gulda, Maria Grinberg, Claude Frank, all of whom made lasting, widely admired and easy-to-find contributions to Beethoven interpretation? Why? Perhaps lesser known, though highly interesting, I may add Yves Nat, Michaël Levinas, Michael Korstick, Alfredo Perl (complete cycles) or Grigory Ginzburg and Piotr Anderszewski (for this sonata), to name but a few. And why include so many performers not particularly known for their Beethoven, or competition performances - certainly many very fine pianists among them, but whose relevance for Beethoven interpretation will yet have to be established? Be it as it may, the general idea of this video could be a starting point for fruitful musical reflections. Maybe addressing the even bigger problem (on the modern piano) of the ‚Bebung‘ (the repeated A right before the notes in question) more in depth would be an idea? Thanks again nevertheless!
Great vid. Unless you have a recording of the composer, you are left with tradition as defined by scholarship and the period in which it was written. All of the examples you gave make sense depending on how they interpreted the rest of the piece. In the end you decide how to play it. It’s interesting to compare how you used to play it in 2021 and now. Disclosure: I’m an organist but approach rep for my instrument the same way you did. You did a good job!
I loved this deep dive! I also didn’t hear the upper octave with Pires, but the sound was so rich in upper overtones, and it sounds like she’s really playing in the « échappement » in a way that allows the overtones to develop. Sublimely beautiful, in any case!
Usually I'll play these three notes with a bit of Rubato that kinda feels almost like triplets. Because it is recitative in nature, there's no right or wrong interpretation, at least for me. One way or another, there's a need for Rubato there anyhow. End of the day, it all depends on your style and how you would like to have it sound like more cantabile or recitativo.
My opinion is a pianist has to make each composition their own. A pianist like you is too tied to the score. You need to play it the way you think it sounds best. Use your own ear. Whatever you do, it has to sound convincing.
I agree and disagree to this sentiment. Yes, as performers we are also storytellers. I agree that we should interpret each composers story with our own artistic understandings, but not as much to rewrite the composer’s narrative. For example, changing notes, changing major chords to minor chords are all egregious alterations, however I am ok with reinterpreting fingerings, dynamics, and/or articulations with respect to the composer’s intentions.
@@DrUkeMusic There is nothing in the original post implying anything at all about rewriting the composer's narrative, changing chord qualities, etc., just that you need to be convicted of your interpretation, and it needs to sound convincing. I think he is correct that this video is an example of a musician being too tied to the score.
It's hard for me to imagine finding fault with anyone for enjoying looking at how different people have interpreted a moment in a piece one loves and has recorded. And it's easy for me to imagine someone reading this comment as giving free reign for complete rewriting of a score. The person said you need to be able to make the composition your own. that could be easily understood to be rewriting something. Especially in a period where improvisation was expected in the repeats. Thanks for the interesting dialogue.
Exactly. Ack in the day they had play offs. The composers themselves would play their compositions differently every time. Mozart was playing in a city once. On the second night a woman told him she was hoping he’d play the same piece he did the night before. He replied, mam I did.
Trying to understand metronome markings and juxtaposing them against the tempo indications, performance practice, and my own feelings about the appropriate tempo for any given piece.
Arrau said the top repeated As were drawing on an effect you could produce called bebung in german, (if i remember). Its like a vibrato and probably made more sense on a forte piano.
Thank you for this very interesting and thought-provoking discussion. I went back to my recording in 2021 to listen for what I did. I played it as a triplet figure, but I enjoyed hearing the variety of other ways to play it. I don't think Pires is playing the A an octave above. I think we are hearing some harmonics in the way she is playing it. The autographed manuscript of Op. 110 displays December 25, 1821 as it's date of publication. I like to think of Op. 110 as Beethoven's Christmas gift to the world. I was surprised that no one else felt a need to perform it on Christmas day, 2021 as a celebration of it's 200th birthday. In my video notes, I outlined some reasons why it's worth thinking of Op. 110 as the "Christmas" Sonata: ruclips.net/video/yvoPqOk7S0s/видео.htmlsi=vaXBZbt1VUTx7SvM
Thanks! I'm glad that this investigation inspired you to go back to your own recording as well! I had a similar thought about the Pires recording, that it's a trick of acoustics is absolutely possible. But I like the idea that she did something completely unpredictable.
Agreed about Pires. It sounded different from the others, but I also didn't hear the A from the octave above. Before reading your comment I assumed my ear was deceiving me! Haha.
Why are these three notes so important to you? Did I miss an explanation? at 06:20 I began wondering WHY do you research the way these three notes are played? Your introduction that the sonata is a weighty statement from Beethoven, and that these three notes are essential, and then making sure we know that Beethoven worked on it for a year, and that there are more sources, that altogether is interesting. But why just focus on these three notes? Beethoven was a gifted improvisator, and would never have played a phrase exactly the same way. Music notation is of course an approximation. Nevertheless - interesting.
I also begin to wonder if any of the slurs are ties, but then again there must be sources which explain that this is a way to describe the "bebung" - using the piano hammer, like Kissin does, to touch a vibrating string, creating a small attack. By the way, excuse me for the next question, can you please loosen up your voice, sounds like you force a deep pitch? I hope it will help you in the long run.
You ask a great question! These three notes were a fixation for me personally, but certainly any moment in this piece could be examined just as closely. In regards to the "bebung" - many of the recordings I listened to did play them as ties, or emphasized the second note to varying degrees of intensity.
Several of you have pointed out that perhaps the "octaves" I say Pires plays could actually be an acoustic trick of the recording or a very specific color change. Listening to it a few more times, I'm not so sure - what do you think?
To me it sounds like a similar pitch throughout with very distinct phrasing of 2 note groups and with so much attack you can really hear the hammers and perhaps harmonics too.
I'm not hearing that at all. And I was listening through my electrostatic speaker-based hi fi system. Am I going deaf?
Speaking of which, we should all be grateful to Beethoven for enduring a life so full of tragedy so we all can enjoy some of the most sublime music ever created. Mr. O'Connor's comment about evoking a time when life could have been better reminded me of that.
I slowed it down to 25% which helped me. I do hear a octave above echo, but this only starts about 1/3- 1/2 thru the 32nd notes, and then this quits for the last couple of them. I'm not sure these are played notes, but more like a weird acoustic echo.
Cool scholarly casual. Nice little lecture! Cheers.
Thanks for taking that extra mile to figure it out! Sounds like your explanation is right!
I'm not sure if this kind of obsession is healthy.
8:20 I don't hear that "octave" above. I just hear very subtle repetition from within the key. That's what I call a "saline" character in a piano ("zilt" in Dutch), which has that "silvery" quality on certain repetitions especially with some very specific damper distances. That said, I'd also call Volodos triplet a regular 8th note triplet. It's clearly nowhere near twice as fast, it's just marginally more more flowing in time.
Absolutely possible! It's an unusual sound, but it would make sense.
@@tonebasePianoshe's definetly not hitting the A an octave above 😅
I love this stuff 👏 sometimes I obsess over similar things!
Ben Laude cameo @ 3:21 lol. (It's hard not to miss him--he's like the Jesse Enkamp of piano, with something magical about his personality--but regardless, I enjoyed this video.)
3:58 Is that Alfred Cortot peeking out? LOL. [Edit: Watched the rest. Yup, Cortot.]
What happened to Ben Laude? Why is he not here anymore?
@@epicaunleashed8764 Ben Laude has his own separate channel now on RUclips (it's fun). I hear he may release a video on ToneBase in the coming weeks, however. I don't know the reasons for the general change except that it was by mutual agreement.
As a listener, I love obsessing over tiny details in the piano litterature. It's always nice to compare, to analyse, to ponder the mysteries of that big universe. Yet sometimes I wonder whether the great (traveling, touring, famous) international concert pianists even have time for this kind of thing. 🙃 By the way I'm reading Leif Ove's book "At work" at the moment. A fascinating, concise and super-pragmatic perspective on pianism.
Thanks for your thoughts! You make a good point -- I know from my own experience that I only really had time to think about this in so much depth once I was no longer actively working on the piece.
"the last 3 piano sonatas of beethoven, written just a few years before his death are full of profound that one could obsessive about for lifetimes" screw no 28 and 29 I guess 💀💀💀💀
Do you think Cortot lingered on the 2nd of 3 notes because of that double slur???
Great point, that's my hypothesis as well!
I don’t hear Pires alternating between As. She plays it as written.
So, with Ben Laude gone, will there be more exclusive masterclass, interviews etc. videos coming up with renowned pianists on tonebase (premium) in the future?
Absolutely, there will continue to be exclusive content from excellent and notable pianists on the premium platform!
Thanks for your considerations and for making the effort to listen to so many recordings! I‘m interested in the topic of comparing interpretations and their relation to musical problems, and therefore welcome endeavours of this kind. However, as much as I appreciate a lot of the content on this channel, in this case I must say that I have some difficulty to understand your criteria for the choice of recordings. No Edwin Fischer, Arrau, Backhaus, Kempff‘s two later complete cycles of Beethoven Sonatas, Gieseking, Serkin, Friedrich Gulda, Maria Grinberg, Claude Frank, all of whom made lasting, widely admired and easy-to-find contributions to Beethoven interpretation? Why? Perhaps lesser known, though highly interesting, I may add Yves Nat, Michaël Levinas, Michael Korstick, Alfredo Perl (complete cycles) or Grigory Ginzburg and Piotr Anderszewski (for this sonata), to name but a few. And why include so many performers not particularly known for their Beethoven, or competition performances - certainly many very fine pianists among them, but whose relevance for Beethoven interpretation will yet have to be established? Be it as it may, the general idea of this video could be a starting point for fruitful musical reflections. Maybe addressing the even bigger problem (on the modern piano) of the ‚Bebung‘ (the repeated A right before the notes in question) more in depth would be an idea? Thanks again nevertheless!
Guys, you are nuts. Go ad-lib, learn JAZZ, wean yourselves of sheep music
Great vid. Unless you have a recording of the composer, you are left with tradition as defined by scholarship and the period in which it was written. All of the examples you gave make sense depending on how they interpreted the rest of the piece. In the end you decide how to play it. It’s interesting to compare how you used to play it in 2021 and now. Disclosure: I’m an organist but approach rep for my instrument the same way you did. You did a good job!
I obsess over these notes as well when I play this piece. I have obsessed more however, over measure 12.
I loved this deep dive! I also didn’t hear the upper octave with Pires, but the sound was so rich in upper overtones, and it sounds like she’s really playing in the « échappement » in a way that allows the overtones to develop. Sublimely beautiful, in any case!
Thanks for watching! That’s a beautiful way to describe the very unique sound that she accomplished there!
Usually I'll play these three notes with a bit of Rubato that kinda feels almost like triplets. Because it is recitative in nature, there's no right or wrong interpretation, at least for me. One way or another, there's a need for Rubato there anyhow. End of the day, it all depends on your style and how you would like to have it sound like more cantabile or recitativo.
Ever play 3 Spanish Songs and Dances by Carlos Surinach? There's lots to obsess over on those pages.
My opinion is a pianist has to make each composition their own. A pianist like you is too tied to the score. You need to play it the way you think it sounds best. Use your own ear. Whatever you do, it has to sound convincing.
I agree and disagree to this sentiment. Yes, as performers we are also storytellers. I agree that we should interpret each composers story with our own artistic understandings, but not as much to rewrite the composer’s narrative. For example, changing notes, changing major chords to minor chords are all egregious alterations, however I am ok with reinterpreting fingerings, dynamics, and/or articulations with respect to the composer’s intentions.
@@DrUkeMusic There is nothing in the original post implying anything at all about rewriting the composer's narrative, changing chord qualities, etc., just that you need to be convicted of your interpretation, and it needs to sound convincing. I think he is correct that this video is an example of a musician being too tied to the score.
It's hard for me to imagine finding fault with anyone for enjoying looking at how different people have interpreted a moment in a piece one loves and has recorded.
And it's easy for me to imagine someone reading this comment as giving free reign for complete rewriting of a score. The person said you need to be able to make the composition your own. that could be easily understood to be rewriting something. Especially in a period where improvisation was expected in the repeats. Thanks for the interesting dialogue.
Exactly. Ack in the day they had play offs. The composers themselves would play their compositions differently every time. Mozart was playing in a city once. On the second night a woman told him she was hoping he’d play the same piece he did the night before. He replied, mam I did.
“I’ve just discovered classical music and have never performed before.”
I might be in the minority here but I loved this video. Think I watched it 3 or 4 times in a single day. Really enjoyed the clip of Glenn Gould @ 5:22
I think Beethoven wnats us to play those notes however we want
Wants*
really 7 notes - impossible to tell if playing last 3 notes as a triplet or anything else without hearing the 4 preceding notes
Isn't the triplet option necessary to fill-out all the beats of this 'common time' measure?
Trying to understand metronome markings and juxtaposing them against the tempo indications, performance practice, and my own feelings about the appropriate tempo for any given piece.
Just ADD the values . They are spelled as ⅛ notes.
Robert is the cutest addition to the tonebase team..! 🤩
Arrau said the top repeated As were drawing on an effect you could produce called bebung in german, (if i remember). Its like a vibrato and probably made more sense on a forte piano.
Arrau digital is best.
Thank you for this very interesting and thought-provoking discussion. I went back to my recording in 2021 to listen for what I did. I played it as a triplet figure, but I enjoyed hearing the variety of other ways to play it. I don't think Pires is playing the A an octave above. I think we are hearing some harmonics in the way she is playing it.
The autographed manuscript of Op. 110 displays December 25, 1821 as it's date of publication. I like to think of Op. 110 as Beethoven's Christmas gift to the world. I was surprised that no one else felt a need to perform it on Christmas day, 2021 as a celebration of it's 200th birthday. In my video notes, I outlined some reasons why it's worth thinking of Op. 110 as the "Christmas" Sonata: ruclips.net/video/yvoPqOk7S0s/видео.htmlsi=vaXBZbt1VUTx7SvM
Thanks! I'm glad that this investigation inspired you to go back to your own recording as well!
I had a similar thought about the Pires recording, that it's a trick of acoustics is absolutely possible. But I like the idea that she did something completely unpredictable.
Agreed about Pires. It sounded different from the others, but I also didn't hear the A from the octave above. Before reading your comment I assumed my ear was deceiving me! Haha.
Inspiring video
Serkin owns the op.110
That juicy historical tuning is horrible. Oh my God.
I loved it. Just the juxtaposition is jarring.
Thanks!
I dont understand?? Where is ben ???? I love this guy as well but where is he ?
The channel name is "Pianobase", not "Piano Ben"
Also, he's there! 3:21
@@seheyt😅
Sorry. I found it quite boaring
Why are these three notes so important to you? Did I miss an explanation?
at 06:20 I began wondering WHY do you research the way these three notes are played? Your introduction that the sonata is a weighty statement from Beethoven, and that these three notes are essential, and then making sure we know that Beethoven worked on it for a year, and that there are more sources, that altogether is interesting.
But why just focus on these three notes? Beethoven was a gifted improvisator, and would never have played a phrase exactly the same way. Music notation is of course an approximation.
Nevertheless - interesting.
I also begin to wonder if any of the slurs are ties, but then again there must be sources which explain that this is a way to describe the "bebung" - using the piano hammer, like Kissin does, to touch a vibrating string, creating a small attack.
By the way, excuse me for the next question, can you please loosen up your voice, sounds like you force a deep pitch? I hope it will help you in the long run.
You ask a great question! These three notes were a fixation for me personally, but certainly any moment in this piece could be examined just as closely. In regards to the "bebung" - many of the recordings I listened to did play them as ties, or emphasized the second note to varying degrees of intensity.
I gotta say... this new guy is terrible and his 2 videos so far have been uninteresting and dull.
You are unkind.
@@ahimsapianostudio9266 yes
@@ahimsapianostudio9266 yes that is your opinion.
You really are an investigator! 🥸 congrats! 😊